Hi.

Searching for answers here. I am relieved to have found a forum such as this, but will admit to being apprehensive, because I'm just recently coming off my first intimate experience with a "P." I've read a few of the forums here and it is, again, a relief to find that there are at least others with whom I may share experiences. I must admit though that I am having trouble trusting anyone online at this moment, since that is where I met this person. Please excuse me if I am not as forthright initially as I might normally be, but this experience has me shaken.

The medical and law enforcement community is seemingly oblivious to this condition and for the first time in my life, am fearful of how manipulative and destructive another human can be. While I've heard of such conditions, I have never personally been involved. I was SO completely duped by this person and as I retrace these past few months, I guess I can only be thankful that this person did not have physical violence in their repertoire. God knows it could've been a lot worse.

I am reluctant to give details online. The person I was involved with was SO cunning, intelligent, charismatic, and manipulative that I wouldn't put it past this person to be reading this message right now. Yes, if I seem a bit paranoid, I am. The developments of the recent past have been chilling and have turned my life for a pretty mean twist. I came to find out that this person is, indeed, a "P" and has been parasitic and a pathological liar for years now.

After the initial period of kicking myself for not picking it up sooner (in talking with other victims, I actually have found out that I picked it up very soon in comparison to other victims of this P), I am now experiencing a great deal of confusion as to whether or not my safety is compromised in any way. It is both incredible and sad that this person has made me feel so insecure, when before my life was such an open book. While I haven't lost my faith in human nature, I have been shaken and feel like wiping my entire slate clean (change name, living arrangements, car, etc.) I have nothing to hide in my life, but the lies this person conjured are unbelievably elaborate. This person's absolutely convincing nature makes this person a very big threat to the happiness of anyone who becomes intimately involved with this person, on any level.

I'm looking for places to turn right now and wonder if there are any support groups for people who have become victims of p's. I am also torn between just forgetting about it/moving on and/or stopping this person. The research seems to be unclear on what to do and since this person is constantly able to hide behind the veils of medical privacy, it is very difficult to know whether or not professionals are aware or if they too are just other, less injured, victims of the p.

This person has the ability to be SO destructive because of the absolute plausibility of the tales woven as well as the seemingly appropriateness of this person's actions and words in society. While I will be much better equipped to see it coming the next time I encounter a person with this condition, I fear others will fall into the trap I did. I mean, why wouldn't they? This person is absolutely charming, wonderful in every way, and very believable in general.

Any help out there?

Thank you for just being there as just typing this has helped me purge a bit of what's inside.

Hi TR,

Welcome to this forum.

There is positively no need for apologising for being less than forthright, for being reluctant to give details and for being somewhat paranoid about your security - online and off. In fact, I would say that you are wise to know how you feel right now and to act accordingly, however unpleasant it feels to be so alien to yourself.

You are not alone! I too, was shaken to the roots of my being when I discovered what I had been up against. I worried that P would call, that he would show up unannounced, that he would use spyware to find me on the Net, that he would know that I had found out who he was. In fact, I can still become unsettled at the thought of meeting him on the street - this in spite of the fact that he does not live in this country.

You write:

"I am now experiencing a great deal of confusion as to whether or not my safety is compromised in any way."

While a P can be very cunning, chances are that your safety is NOT compromised, especially since the P was not violent. As well, many socially adept P's shy away from violence unless dirctly threathened. Another thing is that a socially adept P generally has very good radar and will have picked up that his victim is about to call it quits. He will almost always have another unsuspecting person waiting in the wings. This is sad but true.

The best way for you to stay safe is to NOT interfere with the P in any way. The NO CONTACT rule is the only way to take back your life. Warning the next victims never works. Would you have believed it if someone had told you about the P when you first met him? No, you would not and neither would I. P's are just too charming, too intelligent, too loving and too able to be just the right kind of soulmate for anyone to believe anything negative about him.

"It is both incredible and sad that this person has made me feel so insecure, when before, my life was such an open book."

Yes, it is very frightening. I was incredulous that he could have duped me like that. I was angry at myself for not having listened to my intuition. I was both sad and worried and very stressed and distressed. Research indicates that people who have had a relationship with a P often suffer from PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. It can be seen in many ways or just a few ways, depending on the person.

Your desire to 'wipe the slate clean' is something I can easily understand. The feeling is that by changing everything, we can effectively put the experience behind us. The experience will still be there and no amount of hiding from it will make it go away.

However, the good news is that it does get better. Slowly, you will understand that it was NOT your fault. You will come to understand that there was nothing you could have done - that seeing through the initial mask of sanity (to borrow words) is almost impossible. The P aims to dupe you and he is a master par excellence. People not in the know, will not realise what is happening. I surely had no clue. I felt so lucky to have found a man so tender, so loving and so considerate, so charming and wonderful. Of course, he was anything but, but it took me quite some time to figure that out.

Time is a great healer and today I am okay, albeit still a bit suspicious of strangers.

Yes, it helps a lot to write things down. It can help to get rid of the fear, the anger and the confusion. Seeing a psychologist or licensed therapist can also be a great help. You must however shop around to ensure that the therapist knows about psychopaths and is conversant with the P victim pathology.

Reading as much as you can find about P's and their victims can also be helpful.

It is possible that there are support groups in your area. You will have to check it out very carefully. Use the Net and the phone book to gather information. Other than that, we will our best to help and support you.

Please take care and know that you are not alone.

Nan

Hi TheRide, welcome to the forum. I can understand your concerns, they are quite "normal" from the many victims I have read stories from. Privacy here at the forum is a very important issue, unlike "free software" forums we use a very secure system.

I hope you will feel comfortable to tell more of your story. Sometimes writing can be the best way to express your feelings and see things more clearly.

Di

Nan and Dianne. Thank you very much for your posts. I appreciate your feedback. It feels right to put this experience behind me, pick up the pieces, and move on. There is a part of me, however, that still wants to unravel some of the mysteries that surround this situation. A friend of mine and a relative told me to forget about it as I will, most likely, never get the answers to some of the things that still don't make sense. Ultimately, peace of mind will hopefully come in time. I am still changing lots of things in my life...just securing things, etc. But, overall, I just want so much to come out of this a better person while at the same time being a bit more cautious about letting people "in" without a clue as to who they are. I guess my "sixties" mentality needs to be slightly modified, eh? I have always had so much faith in human nature, but this experience has shown me a very dark side to the human condition. Again, I can only thank my lucky stars that this person was not violent or didn't posess some other wickedly negative traits. And...even though this person will probably not see any jail time or receive any truly serious punishment, the actions of this p, in my opinion, amounted to a series of serious moral crimes. When one examines the entire chain of events over the past years (numerous victims), one will find an absolutely shocking record of abuse. It's really amazing how these people can fly under the radar so masterfully, yet once they're caught, can so easily have another victim all lined up. It's obvious to me now that the p I was involved with probably hasn't missed a beat and is more than likely latching onto someone else for another "ride" right this very moment....Amazing, really.

I wish you all well. I'd be glad to be of help to anyone who needs an ear, er eye...(internet here...woops).


Take care.

Hi TheRide, I think the most common thing most victims share is a wonderful ability to care and trust others. Unfortunately when it comes to dealing with Psychopaths it is easier to become a target. It is hard for most of us "normal" people to think on the same terms. I also think that many times people who don't understand the dilemna want to brush people off with a "get over it" attitude. I personally think as in all of lifes traumas it is very healthy to take your approach and try to review how and why things happen. I think it helps to put the pieces of the puzzle together and help us to move forward without falling into the same trap again. Keep in mind there is nothing that you did wrong, being a nice and caring person is not a bad thing

It is very kind of you to offer to help others. Telling your story does help others. We have a very large readership and for many reasons and fears many who visit the site read for quite awhile before coming forward. So, any advise you can offer or help explain how this happened to you is valuable to others.

Di

Hi there.

I'm sorry I'm reluctant to give more detail at this point, but I will say that the stories I've been reading all seem to share similar themes and motivations, albeit different circumstances. Similar to alcoholism, "people, places, and things" may be different, but psychopathy, from what I'm discovering, is NOT considered a disease.

One of the best things I read (after reading all of the basic research on the net) was a piece called "The Straight Dope." In a nutshell, people with this condition are just "lying sacks of sh**" and "without conscience." While the first quote may seem rather simplistic, it does seem to ring true. In my case, this person displayed all of the classic characteristics: highly manipulative (as it turns out), charming, inexplicable "flat" emotion at times, above average to high intelligence, grandiosity, high sex drive and high degree of sexual promiscuity at times in life, talent in many areas, apparent sincerity and anything but antisocial. The truth is that this person, ultimately, was calculating, parasitic, addicted to drugs, and had the ability to create such elaborate lies that seemed to be so detailed and so "layered." It's amazing really to think how cold this person really is. To be so "loving" and seemingly sincere on one hand, only to be so callous and kniving at the same time, just proves to me that this person ultimately has little to no conscience as a result of a severe lack of self-esteem. Instead of dealing with problems in life, this person, and others, are only able to "get a charge" by duping people into thinking they are something other than a lying sack of sh** with major self-esteem issues. Instead of "fighting the good fight" in life, they CHOOSE to hurt others. In the case of the person I was falling in love with, he/she chose to prey on the empathy of me, and others in the past, by faking a suicide--a tactic this person has used to escape once "the jig is up" on numerous other occasions. Once they are able to hide behind the veils of "medical privacy," they are then free to prey on another kind soul with the ultimate goal of getting into a warm house, and in this case, back on the internet to attract another unsuspecting mate.

While it would be easy to call this person, and others like him/her "sick," it would, most likely, be incorrect to do so. The research and victims' stories seem to indicate that these people, while certainly lacking conscience, are completely sane while contemplating their actions. The one I was dealing with was SO convincing and was able to mask his/her "condition" through a series of very acceptable and wonderful attributes and actions.

I'd be interested in others' opinions on what I've written above.

I also have another concern. As a victim of this person, I find myself wanting to distance myself COMPLETELY while still remaining curious about: who's on tap now, his/her whereabouts, and what really happened throughout our relationship. As for damages, I can truly say that I've come out relatively unscathed. I was one of the lucky victims in that I was "in" for a pretty short amount of time, compared to other victims of this p. Nonetheless, the depth of feeling I felt during that short time and the "ride" on which I was taken was quite intense. I'll eventually be able to pick up the financial, emotional, etc. pieces and move on, but I have to admit that the experience had a pretty profound effect on me and I will never be the same. I'm better now. I'm still a loving soul with a desire to connect on a very deep level, but I am MUCH more careful now. Sad, but true. This has been my growing edge. My buddy said tonite, "What doesn't kill you will make you stronger." I believe it's true, providing I continue to "fight the good fight" and learn from my mistakes...that's my hope.

As you can probably tell, and as I mentioned initially in this post, I'm still reluctant to give specific details, because this is a public place. I'm sure there are numerous p's that read this board to get their jollies. I believe it's important to express our truths and share at whatever level with which we feel comfortable. For now, this is my comfort level.

I have another question. During my search for answers during the initial phase of the discovery of who this person really is, one of the previous victims and I had a phone chat. Now, this person wishes to "compare notes" and just share stuff, tell stories, etc. While I believe it can be helpful in satisfying some of the curiosity surrounding the mysteries, etc., I am not clear about the goal of this. It would only confirm what I already understand, albeit providing some new details. As mentioned previously, a part of me is strangely curious. What would you do if a previous victim wants to compare stories? Outside of satisfying curiosities, what other possible benefit could come from this?

Thanks for reading and peace to all.

Hi TR,

What you have written is a good blue print of a P. As with the general population, there are small differences in behaviour. For example, some P's are highly sexed while other P's claim to be, but in fact are not. The P I knew I was not terribly interested in vanilla sex although he liked to talk about it and he also used it as a carrot.

The 'flat' emotions are one of the hallmarks. P's are able to display what appears to be emotion, but if asked, "why do feel this way?" he is unable to explain or elucidate and the issue, whatever it was, is forgotten in the blink of an eye. The P I knew, would even refuse having had a conversation about it as well as negate any negative actions on his part - no, he had never said that - never done that. If I persevered, he would turn the tables and claim that IF...it was because I had done so and so and thus forced him to behave in a negative manner. If not me, he would blame tom, dick and harry, his mother or his upbringing or his education, or the lack thereof. There was always an excuse. It was NEVER his fault. According to him, he was the real victim.

You write:

"To be so "loving" and seemingly sincere on one hand, only to be so callous and kniving at the same time, just proves to me that this person ultimately has little to no conscience as a result of a severe lack of self-esteem. "

While I agree about the 'no conscience' bit and can understand why you have come to the conclusion that the result must be a 'severe lack of self-esteem', my opinion is that in order to suffer from a severe lack of self-esteem, one has to be capable of real emotion and introspection. One has to be aware of oneself as a being with a range of real wishes and desires that have been repeatedly twarted so as to create a sense that one is 'no good' and therefore unable to live up to own perceived potential.

This, I believe, is not the case with a P. He or she is good at playing the victim, but it is a ploy, nothing more. It is a ploy to get various goodies, such as a place to stay, money, gifts and most of all attention. P's crave attention.

Their ploys to get attention by playing the victim is often used to deflect questions about their behaviour. Questions that have no satisfactory answer. Initially, this works a charm. Who can stand by idly while listening to a childhood story of horrible woe and deprivation. So the question is forgotten and instead we do our best to be supportive and understanding of our love who has suffered so.

However, being supportive and understanding of a P, is like throwing emotion, money and whatever else, into a deep bottomless well. First of all, it will NEVER be enough and second, you will NEVER get it back.

The reason it will never be enough is that the P, feels entitled to EVERYTHING. Whatever you give, he will take without so much as considering the cost to you. Since he has no conscience and only 'flat' emotions, he does not care. To have a 'severe lack of self-esteem' one has to be capable of emotional insight. This you will not find in a P. You may find a good imitation, but that's all it is: imitation.

You write:

"I also have another concern. As a victim of this person, I find myself wanting to distance myself COMPLETELY while still remaining curious about: who's on tap now, his/her whereabouts, and what really happened throughout our relationship. "

Yes! That appears to be par for the course. I think most of us here can relate to that. There is a clear sense that while wanting to put it all behind us, there is a also a very strong desire to discover what really happened and why did it happen to us. Who are these clever, manipulating people, who took our lives, put them into a virtual blender and made mush of them. What did we do wrong? Why did we fall for it? Why did we not not see it coming?

A million such questions flow through our minds and there is a strong desire to find answers. Sometimes, there is also a strong desire for revenge. As for the answers, they are slow in coming. Even the best research psychiatrists do not know exactly why a person is or becomes a P. All that is really known is that they exist and that they wreck havoc with other people's lives. Some of the ways that they do this, is both well known and well documented. Although many fine researchers, among them Robert Hare, have made strides, the why is harder to acertain with any degree of confidence. As for revenge: Revenge is a dish best eaten cold. The NO CONTACT rule is your best tool.

Take care,

Nan

Good points Nan.

As for the self-esteem issue, it's a tough call. I suppose one would have to gather histories on and interview a great number of p's in order to determine whether or not self-esteem issues seem to be key indicators of "p-dom."

Anyhow, you make some excellent points which rang true for my situation.

Thanks!

"I also have another concern. As a victim of this person, I find myself wanting to distance myself COMPLETELY while still remaining curious about: who's on tap now, his/her whereabouts, and what really happened throughout our relationship."

Hi Nan and The Ride and Diane
i am in that state these last few days.Curiosity.
i had shared how i was so weak that i could not deal with p anymore so that is how i am strong
i am doing good at the no contact physical and no phonecal
for a few month
well a few days ago he kept calling i would not answer
he left a message saying he finally got his own place and a phone (no long distance) i met him oh halloween night 1998
and he always live off of other people and i have been telling him hat he need to get his own place
so he is leaving his number for me to call
and i have to admit i would like to see his new place
i would tell him to get his own place
and he says i finally got it
but
i did not call and i am glad i am not doing it


i am ashame to say that i am curious and i know if i call his number it will be hell after that
i know how he is and i don't feel like going through all the bagage he's got up his sleeve

peace and love

monique

Hi Freedom,

"i am ashame to say that i am curious and i know if i call his number it will be hell after that"

Better ashamed in heaven than burning in hell.

Stay strong, Freedom.

Nan

Recently, the p I was involved with was checked into a prominent psychiatric hospital.It's a hospital that is very difficult to get admitted to, unless the person is a danger to his or herself and/or society.

It got me thinking. I'm assuming this person has shown something that would warrant admission...whether the symptoms displayed are real or not, I don't know. One of the thoughts I had was that there was some severe depression involved, but then I realized that it wouldn't fit in with the whole p mindset, or would it? Then I realized that it's been extremely cold out this past month and without a "host," this parasite has undoubtedly latched back into the medical system. A person without a home and nobody to dupe would most likely seek out warmer environs in subzero temps, right? Could it be that simple?

Hi TR,

"Could it be that simple?"

It's possible of course but, I believe, unlikely.

A few observations:

If, as you suggest, the P is homeless and living on the street (in itself an unlikely scenario), he/she would not be taken to a "prominent" hospital straight off the street, but rather be taken to an ordinary psychiatric 'holding place', i.e., a hospital for people without expensive medical insurance. Of course, this is assuming that the P is in the US and without private medical insurance. In Canada, medical insurance is different and the same is true in England and Northern Europe.

For example, in NYC there are a few psychiatric hospitals that are used as 'holding places' for the homeless, who need psychiatric care for one reason or another. As far as I know, these places are VERY unpleasant.

You write: "...the p I was involved with was checked..."

The words 'WAS checked' indicate that the P was admitted by someone other than him/herself, and if that someone other is the police, then the P was likely pretty far out - some P's do take drugs and drink excessively. If the P was admitted by family, the reason why could be anything. However, as far as I know, a P rarely if ever, commits suicide, although they are known to threaten with doing so, since it provides a LOT of attention and victim status a la, "poor you". This is fodder for the P, who thrives on attention, positive OR negative attention.

However, assuming that the P has expensive private medical insurance with extensive coverage, then yes, the P could have been admitted to a "prominent" psychiatric hospital.

More importantly, why I can easily understand your desire to know what the P is doing, it is not a healthy preoccupation. By obsessively thinking and worrying about the P, and what he/she may do, you are kept in thrall because the P still has power over you, albeit in a different way than before and you are therefore unable to get on with your own life.

It is right and also wise to be aware that a P can be dangerous if thwarted and to take precautions by not putting yourself in situations where you are in the 'line of fire', so to speak. The NO CONTACT rule works, but no contact also means not spending every moment of the day thinking about the P. It's very difficult, I know first hand, but every time you catch yourself obsessively thinking about the P, mentally use the CANCEL button. It works!

Of course, it is also possible, perhaps even likely, that you feel safer thinking that the P is in a psychiatric hospital.

In any case, I believe you are correct in thinking that severe depression does not fit with the whole P mindset and that a P could easily dupe the authorities, police, doctors and so on.

Stay safe and try not to think so much about what the P is doing or not doing.

Nan

Hi TheRide, if I may ask, how did you find out that the P was in the mental hospital? Nan is right, P's can and do fool professionals all the time. I am suspicious that this is a ploy to get your attention and concern.

Di

Since there are legal concerns surrounding this case, I have been made aware that this p is in a mental hospital.

This p has used fake suicide attempts as a method for extricating him/herself from situations when "the jig is up." Since this p has been in the hospital, I ofcourse, have not been made aware of details, but I would imagine that this p posed a threat in some way, either to self or society. I know it's a ploy though.

As for obsessing about this p, I'm doing my best not to do so. Since this all came down weeks ago, I've given up on trying to solve the mysteries surrounding the situation and have really moved on with my life. Yes, there are some loose ends and I'm still adjusting and reconfiguring my life as a result of this p's actions, but all in all I've moved on. This p came from out of state, but since the most recent fake suicide happened in my home state, he/she was admitted into the emergency room. From there, there was admission into two psychiatric wards, with the most recent admission coming a couple of weeks ago.

Since this person has burned all bridges back "home," he/she cannot return anywhere, and the sanctuary of a psychiatric hospital, I'm sure, is better than being out in the cold attempting to scam someone else.

As for medical insurance, I believe that this p somehow has some. I'm not at all sure about this person's finances, but it would seem there are next to no assets. I do believe, however, that this person does have some form of medical insurance. I don't know, and as I've said, I stopped obsessing over the details about three weeks ago.

I just hope it's over.

well my curiosity got me nowhere but to i should have stick to the no contact

he left a message on my cell, last week, saying that his grand-father die, i was thinking maybe it is a ploy to get me to talk to him because i still don't see it in the paper

his death happen the next day of my father's birthday and death
so i was thinking how special this was (Hum!what a slimy excuse for myself to talk to him again)

so then again he calls
i talk to him, telling him all the reason why i should not be with him, that he was a pathological lier and a con artist and so on and he answered, "it took me 7 years to figure this out!"
so i hung up on him, that was last thursday

the feeling of wanting to see him was ridiculously coming back to me and i know that is not my destiny to have contact with him
so tonight a little while ago he calls and i talk to him
he says it has been 3 months we haven't seeing each other and he wants to be with me, he tried to see other women but he wants me and wants me to go to the funeral, he wants me to pick him up friday morning and go with him, he says he needs my shoulder to cry on
so i ask him where do you live, because he had mentioned to a lady friend of mine that he had his own apt. and phone,
which i had been begging him to get his own place
well that was a joke
he is still at his mother's place
so i told him i could not go with him to the funeral
then he mentions why i had him throwing out of the club where i go (i don't know if i mentioned that he was told not to come back at the club again, other people did not want him there)
his conversation was just the same as ever why do i hang around people who are his enemies (all the other musicians who finally saw what he is about)

so when i saw that he had not changed i hung up on him
and i have been missing him this last week and no i could not go back to this crazy life

and TheRide i was reading your message about p being at the mental hospital
my ex-p would do this in the winter time when he had no place to stay, when his mom's landlord would put him out of her appartment because he would be fighting with his mom's boyfriend, he would put himself into a rehab place for a few days or go to salvation army

and he is a guy who was making beaucoup money when he was younger and could still do it but refuse to go further with his carreer he was in demand to be in a movie did not show up to sign the paper and had been on tour in Europe and people wanted to see him again but acted so bad here in the states that his agent finally dropped him

p told me in those few moments of truth that his goal was to make one more cd and quit
but he let some women believe that he needs one month to get back on his feet and they pamper him to the point of loosing beaucoup of their money trying to help him and then they realize that he is just a trouble maker
he did this number to so many people that now it is not working anymore

another thing he tells me why he does not want to make money
there would be a lot of people who would sue him

and another thing he mentioned he is rich, his money is put away and if i marry him he will get the money out of the bank
so i would tell him now that you told me about your money
and i say yes to marry you
you will think that i married you for your money

O Lord God deliver us from the ps

freedom

Hello, I'm new but have been reading this forum from time to time. Very useful and reassuring insights.
My concern about the "P" in my life (or formerly) regards his job which relates to public safety. What sort of measures are being taken to screen for psychopaths from certain jobs such as bus drivers, airline pilots, hazardous material workers, and so forth? It would seem that there should be more preventitive efforts in certain fields.
The other part of my concern as it relates to me personally is more of an ethics issue. I've spent most of my energy trying to unglue myself from the entire P Web.
However, I am the only one (probably) who knows all the lies regarding this P's background (medical problems aside from the psych) which would probably cost him his job. However, his job does concern public safety and is overseen by a gov't agency.
I'm not crazy about getting blamed and more hassle; on the other hand, if something happens... Supplying an anonymous tip may not work. Employers and gov't bureaucracies are often clumsy and not so trustworthy, and I could end up suspect #1 source.
So that dilemma seems to make it harder to keep moving on...

Yours,

RJ

Hi freedom, I hope this has helped you put him in better perspective. Interesting how these creeps can live off everyone and then try to use this line:

In reply to:

---

and another thing he mentioned he is rich, his money is put away and if i marry him he will get the money out of the bank

---

Funny he probably never had the money to buy himself a drink and yet he tries this way to lure you back. Doesn't make any sense because if he had money in a bank with people trying to sue him they could probably figure that out and go after him.

I wish you luck with your strength to resist him.

Di