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#9058 - 01/20/10 08:43 PM Re: RAD or Fledgling Psychopaths? [Re: ]
RADgrad Offline
member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 15
Jan, I am not sure any of the below show anything that Hare has not already presented, but there are several sites relevant to RAD genes and neurobiology at the link below
http://stopthestorm.wordpress.com/2009/12/31/attachment-smart-and-stupid-research/
Child Abuse Causes Damage at Genetic Level -- but on these sites, there is no validation that maternal separation can cause such brain damage, because these scientists have not yet put two and two together, and are believing solely what they hear about abuse/neglect, without ever being aware of the affects of maternal separation. If the scientists are given a child to study, and they are advised that the child was abused and neglected, this is the premise that the scientists rely upon, without ever questioning. They also do not consider that some children are abused by caregivers and other children, due to the very fact that the abused child is already a highly provocative psychopath, inviting abuse by people who do not understand what RAD is all about. Scientists studying in isolation who have come to the conclusion that maternal separation is brain damaging need to combine notes with the neuro-scientists who believe that the brain damage is always caused by physical abuse/neglect.

At the link above, please look for the following, which are click-able, and lead to other sites:

Child abuse ‘impacts stress gene’

Infant Abuse Linked To Early Experience, Not Genetics

Gene protects adults abused as children from depression
Influence of child abuse on adult depression: moderation by the corticotropin-releasing hormone receptor gene.

The Neurobiology of Child Abuse and Neglect
Do Genetics and Childhood Environment Combine to Pose Risk for Adult PTSD?
Association of FKBP5 polymorphisms and childhood abuse with risk of posttraumatic stress disorder symptoms in adults.

Selected Publications of the Members of the Attachment Parenting International Research Group


At this link, we see brain comparison between that of a normal 3 year old, and that of a child who has suffered extreme neglect
http://www.lostlibertycafe.com/index.php/2009/12/30/the-socio-political-effects-of-childhood/

http://www.eegspectrum.com/Articles/Articles/InHouseArticles/RAD/

Best regards,
Sue

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#9059 - 01/21/10 04:46 AM Re: RAD or Fledgling Psychopaths? [Re: RADgrad]
Trish. Offline
member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 12
Loc: Highlands, Scotland.
I have not read it all as I am new and there is far too much to read.

However, I was abused as a child and made sure my children was NOT abused so I know my children especially my son was not abused. I rejected him at birth due to lots of reasons ie death of my father while pregnant with him, bad marriage, depression etc.

He was also dropped and cracked a check bone by my mum at the age of three weeks old he was taken to hospital but other than his cheek he was discharged as fine. (I often wonder if the drop caused some of his problems).

After he had been dropped my maternal feelings kicked in and I was like a rash all over him feeling bad for not loving him before.

However I was suffering from depression still.

He was ill as a child with failure to thrive (three years behind mentally and physically. Also milk intollerant and was under the childrens hospital for nine years.

Would any of the above caused his problems ?

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#9060 - 01/21/10 05:10 AM Re: RAD or Fledgling Psychopaths? [Re: RADgrad]
Jan
Unregistered


Hi RAD grad and Trish

I need to put some time aside and read all those links and info. Thanks for all the input.
I'm beginning to see a lot of what you are saying and it's great to have such a fresh approach to the topic.

Trish, I'd like to answer what you say later when I have had some time to go through my files and find relevant information. The questions you asked have been addressed before so not unusual.

Regards
Jan

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#9061 - 01/21/10 11:37 AM Re: RAD or Fledgling Psychopaths? [Re: ]
RADgrad Offline
member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 15
Jan, what you say about our kids playing games with us, it's TRUE. Like a cat and mouse, the cat plays with the mouse's mind, repeatedly scaring it half to death, until the mouse actually dies of a heart attack, without a mark on it. That's what I felt like, psychologically bashed, unable to escape, all for a game.

I have to agree with you about the trickiness of diagnosing a child as a psychopath. Our society cannot tolerate such a possibility. If a kid shoots up a school room, it's the parents' faults. Any abnormal behavior cannot possibly be coming from the child, so it must stem from the parent, and the parent must be confronted and maybe even punished. Parents of RAD children seldom get any kind of meaningful support (and in truth, we don't yet know - or we don't dare say - what meaningful support might even be), and are instead taken to task, much to the amusement of our children.

It is my opinion that these children should be institutionalised, but this will never fly; RAD psychopaths are too functional, and their true pyschopatic nature may not become dangerous for society until they become adults. And, as you state, some RAD children do change, sometimes in their mid-30's. There is a belief among some that adult RAD evolves into another diagnosis, not necessarily psychopathic, but I would have to really dig deep into my memory to dig this out. A misdiagnosis of a child, and subsequent institutionalisation would indeed be devastating, on so many levels.

I like your term "dysempathy." Depending upon the cause, it could be accompanied by more qualifications, such as reactive dysempathy, or passive dysempathy, or whatever else. And, yes, this might circumvent the fear of clinicians to use the term psychopath. I am also appreciating the concept you address, or "highly heritable," versus "inherited."

Again, I thank you for conversing with me. My views are heretical, and not tolerated by many. It's important for me to remember that I know only about one particular kind of psychopath, as presented through my adopted daughter. It does seem odd that psychopaths created by other means, seem to share many of the same traits...

The hypothesis that some children are genetically at risk for a stress overload to cause brain damage, certainly makes sense to me. Such a genetic difference would explain why some children are damaged while others are not, even while they have all suffered the same circumstances.

The James Bulger murder stunned people in the US, too, and the news did travel here. It is a revelation to me that the now-freed perpetrators have been given new identities to shield them from their brutal past crimes. If any of them are "cured," they may have evolved away from their psychopathic natures. There are RAD adults who have become appropriately socialised, often, for some reason, in their mid to late 30's. This begs the question as to why some RAD children split away from predatory behaviors, while others evolve into serial killers. I doubt any clinical therapy - or even bend-over-backward nurturing - led to any normal socialisation down the road.

We know little about my daughter before she was found, but her health was good, and there was no apparent malnutrition, and no signs of abuse or neglect. I still firmly believe that maternal separation in and of itself is sufficient to cause traumatic brain damage.

Your spelling was very close, and I was able to find plenty of reference to Kent Kiehl on the web -- will dive into reading up!

You ask, "Would I be right if I took that to mean that you are saying there is one particular group of children who only become psychopaths because of this severe toxic shock of separation?" Yes, it is precisely my intent to convey this. We already know that maternal separation causes brain damage and social dysfunction, but have not linked this to psychopathic tendencies. We blame RAD on abuse and neglect, which is a punishable crime. I contend that child removal from Mother is child abuse, and should be recognised, banned, and punishable. Pro-lifers are committed to encouraging Mothers to give birth and giving up the child, rather than terminating the pregnancy. I almost pass out at how our society accepts and encourages mothers to relinquish their infants for a "better life." YEEK!

Like you, I felt very guilty about my loathing of my daughter, and my strained attempts to keep her off-guard enough so that she did not know she had complete control. My own family thought I was out of control, and wondered how their loving mother/wife/daughter could be such a witch to a gorgeous little girl. But in retrospect, I had no other options. My goal was to keep my family safe from her, and this much I achieved. Rather early on, I gave up the pretence or hope that she would be anything but a threat to us all. I kept her focused on me, so that she was completely consumed by her hatred of me, and her quest to control me. This was intentional on my part, and for my simple purposes, this was more successful than the results other families have reported. I used the research on RAD therapies backwards - rather than encouraging attachment, I kept her enraged at me. It was exhausting and demoralising for me, but ultimately my daughter was under my thumb so much, she never gathered up enough focus to turn her attentions dangerously in many other directions. After she freed herself from me, she terrorised our town, and everyone was astonished at seeing the real beast in her. The stories I heard about her exploits took my breath away. And, yes, she was brought to the attention of our local court system.

You mention your partner's son being a "'fraidy cat," something I have heard about psychopathic boys, rather than girls. The girls seem to be tougher than nails. But I am sure there are plenty of exceptions to these observations.

More later - for now your eyes must surely need a rest from all of this!
Best regards,
RADgrad

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#9062 - 01/21/10 01:14 PM Re: RAD or Fledgling Psychopaths? [Re: RADgrad]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
It is interesting to follow your conversations. I never received any bonding and back then people smoked and drank while pregnant. My father was a severe alcoholic and my mother has BPD. If anything it gave me strength to face challenges. I remember very little of my childhood along with my brother, we have patched together a few stories. I believe it is the mind keeping us safe from abuse by blocking the memory. I am wondering if FP kids remember much about their childhood if they tell the truth and don't lie.

Di

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#9063 - 01/22/10 06:26 AM Re: RAD or Fledgling Psychopaths? [Re: RADgrad]
Jan
Unregistered


Hi Sue

I have had a brief look at the links as I have been a bit short of time this week but will have a closer look over the weekend.
Have you ever had the opportunity to present your hypothesis to any professional? As we constantly say, only people who have personal experience can spot certain aspects of a condition that would not be presented to a professional to be included in any assessment.
Research is always based on a hypothesis so why not promote your ideas to someone you have come across who you think may get funding to follow this line of enquiry?

I’m still not 100% sure of your opinion on Attachment Disorder, Reactive Attachment Disorder, RAD psychopathy and Psychopathy and where the differences are, if any.
I see AD as just a style of attaching to the primary caregiver then to other adults, it can be ‘different’ but more a style than a disorder, so can be adapted. I see diagnosed RAD as being a description of children who react because of their attachment style and in a negative way. (I’m still not sure of the RAD title or whether this is just true psychopathy in its infancy) What you describe as RAD psychopathy, as a disorder induced through stress, attachment style which is beyond repair therefore leads to psychopathic behaviour later in life and would this have happened without the stress? The final category of ‘psychopath’ which I believe to be highly heritable and often with no apparent cause.

How do your views correspond with this? I have got a few links for adult survivors of ‘RAD’ and various other sites if you are interested.

Going on my experience alone. the only reason I can see my partner’s kid is psychopathic is genetic in origin from both sides of his family. Mother on one side and his father’s brother on the other but we don’t know about previous generations apart from two aunts being Antisocial. They were aunts of my partner and his brother. This kid was brought up with every opportunity and was never taken away from his mother.
Can you tell us anything about your daughter’s first years of life and what age she was when she became part of your family? You say you know little about her background so I presume you have no idea if there was a history of psychopathy in her background? The psychologist I spoke to about heritability and gene pool, meant that psychopathy produces an environment to proliferate and produce a higher incidence of psychopathic children. Hare’s checklist includes sexual promiscuousness, often drug taking and irresponsibility, all three leave people open to unwanted pregnancies and damaged children. This is where I think your hypothesis is valid but then takes me back to my chicken and egg scenario. Maybe if we put our two ideas together we may have synergy?

I was discussing what you have been writing about with my partner and he thinks it is very possible that there could be many routes to psychopathy so it’s worth investigating further. As he says ‘what is the definitive psychopath?’ there are many forms of them from non criminal con men, domestic abusers whether physical or emotional through to serial murdering types. I suppose if you look at it like seeing a person without a limb, do we know whether that person was born with a limb missing either with a cause like thalidomide or with no known cause or if it was amputated due to an accident or a disease? In the former it was because of a known in utero condition and would not have happened without the drug but sometimes people are born without a limb and there is no known cause and possible a genetic predisposition? The latter reason is obvious and can be seen clearly that something happened to cause the problem. All of the people with the problem have the same issues but some will deal with it very differently to others.

Maybe it’s not a great example but I’m trying to think of different routes to the same problem. I have some links to information on the Adaptive Gene by Dr Grant T Harris but you may be able to find them here in resources or a Google search.

One thing that differs from your experience is my partner’s kid could and did control his behaviour when he chose to. He once went 6 weeks as the model child until he got the school trip he wanted then reverted back as soon as he got it. He knew what he should do, he knew what was expected of him and he was in control of it. No doubt he could have gone on a lot longer if the trip had been further away. He behaved differently with different people depending on what was expected of him and it was all for gain. He certainly knew how to behave and he knew what wasn’t acceptable, he definitely made his choices to suit himself. He could even tell you what was good and bad behaviour, what was acceptable and not acceptable.

One of the links you posted has some information on Neurofeedback therapy but as far as I’m aware is not approved by the FDA and on some of the web sites highlighting quack attachments therapies warns against it as being bogus and expensive as well as claiming ‘cures’. As you say you believe RAD to be incurable what is your opinion on that therapy and have you come across it? ‘Hawthorne Effect’ comes to mind with some of the claims of some adults and parents of children with ADHD purporting to have degrees of success with it.

I understand exactly what you mean about keeping your daughter on the back foot….I did that too!!! I never showed any anger even though I was boiling inside, I sometimes smiled sweetly when he did or said something that should have had the opposite reaction. I treated him as though he was nothing more than a bad smell in the house because he had his sights set on me. I was the one who had to be annihilated because I was the one who could see right through him. Psychopathy seems to be very misogynist and it’s usually women who report being the victims in the family situation, maybe this is related to your lack of attachment to a mother figure theory?

Your daughter sounds as though her behaviours were overt and angry but we endured sly, covert, sneaky behaviours. We would ‘find’ things out rather than being faced with issues. It was also like being led on a paper trail to the ‘prize’ if we didn’t pick up on the scent and he was getting bored waiting for us to notice. Going back to him knowing how to behave this game, was part of that.
There were even times when he would verbally indicate that he had done something and teased attention out of us if we had missed it. For example if he had stolen something, out of the blue he would say something like “have you seen the poster on my bedroom wall?” to get us to look in his room then it would go on from there once he had got us into the room. Then it would be “I can’t find my *******” inducing us to help him find something supposedly lost then the next day when he wasn’t around I would check the room near the poster and the stolen item would be there.
When he came home from school next day he would be waiting for the reaction. If we carried on as if nothing had happened, the excitement would get too much for him and he would lure us into conversation inviting a reaction. Oh my, did we play some games! If he thought we were the slightest bit annoyed he would smirk with pleasure. The best way to deal with it was to make him return the article in person but it was pointless as a punishment because he wasn’t embarrassed but just angry because he hadn’t got the result he wanted of making us angry. A week in the bedroom after school for a week to complete the ‘punishment’ had no effect whatsoever, It just gave us a period of relief.

I look forward to hearing more from you.

Regards
Jan

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#9064 - 01/22/10 06:31 AM Re: RAD or Fledgling Psychopaths? [Re: Dianne E.]
Jan
Unregistered


Hi Di

My partner's kid never reported having any memories of anything, He never said he had dreams or nightmares. He never talked about having a plan, goal or daydream of doing something, it was as though he was empty.

As you say about lying, if he had reported anything we would never know if it was true or said for a reason.

Regards
Jan

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#9065 - 01/22/10 06:57 AM Re: RAD or Fledgling Psychopaths? [Re: Trish.]
Jan
Unregistered


Hello Trish

I'm sorry to hear you were abused as a child. It's a credit to you that you have overcome this and made sure your children were treated well.

Were you suffering from Post Natal Depression when your son was born as that seems to be different from normal depression? It's not unusual for mothers to find it difficult to bond with their babies in the first few weeks. Your son was 3 weeks old when your nurturing kicked in and many babies, especially premature babies, are kept in incubators for months and grow up without personality problems so i don't think you can take any blame.

Did your mother look after him during the first few weeks so he did have someone he could attach to?

Also I have never come across any research that says psychopathy is caused by something like a fall or an injury. It's only natural to try and find a cause for things that go wrong but sometimes nothing can be identified.

I don't suppose anyone could tell you with hindsight whether the illnesses or conditions your son had were the cause or the effect of his behaviour issues. Many children don't get a proper diagnosis and go through life not getting any help when there is help available depending on the correct diagnosis.

Do you feel the diagnoses he was given were correct and did you ever get any advice on how to deal with him? You obviously know how to parent well or you would not recognise the difference between this boy and your other three children.

Are you able to tell us more about your son and what and when you noticed his beahviour was strange?

It's good to hear you have a supportive husband now to help you cope if he comes back to you.

Regards
Jan

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#9066 - 01/22/10 10:54 AM Re: RAD or Fledgling Psychopaths? [Re: RADgrad]
Damaskrose Offline
member

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 54
hi rad grad
I too had an adoptive daughter who displayed similar behaviour. She is grown up now and we are estranged. But I feel she suffered from the traumatic seperation age three from her mother. She held this anger and pain with in. Social workers do not seem to get it that some children cope fine but others never recover and offering these children for adoption is like a time bomb. The trouble is who can diagnose which children will be ok. Who would wish to write off a sweet little four year old as a fledling psychopath? These children need special care with people who are aware of their suffering and personalities and who can warn others and try to engage with the children themselves. I never got help for my child. I tried to understand on my own and this has damaged all of us. Still I now understand much about dysfunctional families and children and this has helped me. Knowledge is the key. I feel these children thrive on our ignorance they go under the radar. Once they are grown they will not change. I think you may be on to something concerning these children and the way they are studied. I feel too that as I did not know the condtion my child suffered from our relationship could have become very abusive when she was a teen and I sought to modify her deviant behaviour. I felt that I came close to losing control of my anger as I came face to face with her manipulative and sneaky mind games and treatment of others. She would never admit to anything unless I caught her red handed. She would plan and execute these nasty little attacks on people at home and school. Only certain people saw through her and I was one. She is full of very very cold calculating anger and too late I see that the way to win was to stay calm and not engage with her. As you stay calm she gets progressively angrier and then you see the psychopathy.


Edited by Damaskrose (01/22/10 11:04 AM)

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#9067 - 01/22/10 11:39 AM Re: RAD or Fledgling Psychopaths? [Re: Damaskrose]
Jan
Unregistered


Hi Damaskrose

It's good to hear from you again. I'm so pleased you have posted!

Your story is so similar to RAD grad I'm sure you will have a lot to share.

How are things going for you and the little ones? I know you were very busy after your move to a new location and you were also working. Are you still cycling to the beach or has the weather been a bit too cold recently?

I'd love to hear from you and get an update on how life is for you now. Do you ever see your daughter now? I remember when you last posted you were concerned that she was influencing one of the older boys.

Regards
Jan

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