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#3822 - 09/26/05 09:02 AM Re: General Discussion [Re: Mati]
Mati Offline
member

Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 169
Hello again

Update on my situation....

I actually attempted too much with the studying and caused a relapse of ME, but I have rested and feel energy starting to return, although I am still unable to join in with discussion forums like I did in the past. One year and 8 months after leaving and my mind has not recovered yet. Things with my sons are somewhat better in that they treat me with more respect now. Some of this is related to their need to have someone whom they can borrow money from if they get into a fix as their father has ruined his credit rating, ( I have said no to the requests for money and have told them to learn how to manage their money)but it is more than this and they know that if they want some support then I am there for them and they get common sense out of me and some of it is usual adolescent selfishness though I do see some definate narcissistic traits in one of them. They still see their father as sick rather than evil, but I accept that there is nothing I can do apart from demonstrate a psychologically normal parent to them as much as I can by getting on with my life as best I can.

My focus has been centred on this family, but has increasingly been directed towards my daughter from my first marriage (34 years old) who is supposed to be bi-polar and borderline, but as I have increasingly observed her behaviour and remembered her extremely anti-social activities in her childhood, I am wondering whether she is in fact, much more a psychopath than my ex (he displayed very strong p traits through the breakup of our marriage and has certainly some of the mind functioning mentioned by Hare.)

I am actually becoming much more afraid of her since receiving death threats when she was last in a 'psychotic' episode due to her stopping anti-psychotics.

She is manipulative and controlling and parasitic, leaving behind her a string of broken relationships, all of whom are very angry at the end (she ends them showing that she is not borderline I think) I am thinking that her psychosis is drug induced as she has taken just about everything there is since she was 13.

On reading some from this section of the forum, I can certainly see clearly and beyond doubt that she is like others mentioned here, much more so than my ex whom I had recurring doubts about as to whether he really was fully fledged p as some may remember. I have no doubts about my daughter sadly enough.

I have written a list of the things I have observed since her early childhood, when she was extremely demanding of attention, manipulative and charming, and also very dirty in her habits, wetting her pants till very late (up till she left home at 15) and wetting the bad, also not washing and drenching herself in perfume instead. This has been interesting for me to read about.

The worst thing she has done that I am aware of, apart from all of the law breaking, is to let her husband think that her son is his and he is bringing the boy up away from this area. My daughter says the boy is not his. She has no conscience at all about this and was quite happy to burden me with the information. I doubt whether she cares if I tell him or not. I have not told him and still do not know whether I should have. The boy is 15 now and I hace lost contact with him.

I am considering talking to her psychiatrist and telling her these things that she will not know. I am concerned that my daughter is about to start to try to get custody of her 13 year old daughter at weekends (the girl is with her grand father and being with her mother will be harmful to her)

Since thinking along these lines, I have been detatching from her slowly, playing dead as it were when she has been trying to ghet some action by telling me bad things relatives have beed saying supposedly. I started to wonder when my daughter began to be really 'loving' to me after I left her step father and she was telling me all sorts of tales about him. I thoght that at last we were going to get close but soon there was chaos and trouble from the little crowd that she has gathered around her. I blamed them at first thinking they were jealous but I soon came to see how much she manipulates them and acts the victim always.

I will continue to avoid contact with her. She us really stepping up the 'love bombing' as she semms to know that I am wiseing up. I do wonder how safe I will be if she finds out I have been talking to the psyc. and saying that I think she should not have her daughter with her. She has been violent with quite a few people that I know about, serving a prison sentence for one. My daughter has been sabotaging the relationship between my grand-daughter and me. The girl is anti-social herself and in the process of being expelled from her school. I have tried very hard to help her but I feel she has had her mind poisoned against me and perhaps is personality disordered herself.

My ex and sons have nothing to do with my daughter and I have shown one son the death threats via text messages (I have also shown them to the police and her community nurse but they think that it was just due to her being off her meds) She has decided to stop taking them again and her medics will not stop her. They do nothing unless there is a crisis.

I am scared now that I know how dangerous she is and cannot believe that I was so blind not to see this before now especially as I have spent the last two years breaking free from another abusive person.

One good thing has come out of therapy. I have realised that my feelings towards her which were 'killed' slowly, were not because of a lack in me. I have been greatly ashamed of this and of the way she has treat me, shame being something I grew up with due to sexual abuse in my childhood. It is something I am really breaking free from now and it shows in the way I can nopw seek help for myself. I still feel shocked by what I am seeing though, and scared. It is much worse to have a child like this rather than a partner as you have them for life.

Thanks for listening
Mati

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#3823 - 09/27/05 06:29 PM Re: General Discussion [Re: Mati]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hello Mati, I apologize for taking so long to acknowledge your post. I find it very encouraging that you are continuing to take care of yourself. How is school going?

I agree, I find the hygiene issue to be very interesting. I hope more people will weigh in on the issue. I wonder if it isolated or a general practice.

Do you think it is possible that your daughter is on some heavy drugs like meth? I worry about your safety and hope you are keeping good records. Does she live very close to you. If she is under care for mental health and possible drug issues hopefully those will be the things that will keep her from getting custody.

It must be very difficult as a parent to detach but always remember there is nothing you could have done which would have changed the situation.

I am really glad your sons are starting to come around. I hope as time goes on they will really be there for you.

You have really come a long hard way and the distance must seem forever but it sounds like you are taking the right steps and that is all you can really do.

All my best,

Di

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#3824 - 09/28/05 01:36 AM Re: General Discussion [Re: Dianne E.]
Mati Offline
member

Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 169
Hi Di

Thanks for your response and encouragement. I have not been able to start my course due to my health, but I am picking up now and may be able to start next year.

My daughter has been on just about everything in the past and says she is clean now but I do not believe her as she never seems to have any money.

She lives a distance away from me and I am in a first floor flat so I do not feel in immediate danger, and I have kept the text messages she has sent me. I will also keep a record of anything else.

If she denies drug use then the mental health team will consider her daughter going there at weekends unless I see them and say that I think she is still using. I have been detaching and making no comments about the things she has said even regarding her latest attempt to upset me by saying that this year she wants to spend Christmas alone with her daughter (not with me there at her fathers like last year) I am not responding to anything and she is becoming increasingly belligerent towards me. I am just saying I am ill and unable to visit her or answer the phone same days. At first she stepped up the charm but now she is getting angry with my lack of emotional response to her taunts.

I can hardly believe that I have not seen the problem and have always made excuses for her and given her third and fourth chances. She is weaving the web for her daughter now that she is nearly 14 and growing beyond needing care, which has always been planted on someone else. Now the girl might be some use to her so she is charming her and trying to break our bond.

Thanks agion
Mati

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#3825 - 10/08/05 09:53 PM Re: General Discussion [Re: Mati]
Posey Offline
member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 2

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#3826 - 10/09/05 04:14 PM Re: General Discussion [Re: Mati]
Posey Offline
member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 2
Hi Mati: I read your post last night, and I connected with your feelings and situation.

I too have two children, and my ex is a P albeit noncriminal inasmuch as the legal system - but his behavior is very violent, manipulative, and devious and yet he has convinced our two children that it is me who makes him like that, and that if they as much as speak to me or interact with me that i could find something out and land him in jail for it. Now, they are emulating into a him, and are also failing life. They were normal, but live under a P who wishes them destroyed by societal standards. He laughs at their addictions which he encouraged of them, at their lack of education, which he directly caused to them, and at their subsequent failure to have the money they make from their menial labors be put to any other use than to pay for all the fines and high car insurances (DUI's and such) they have reaped as results of their bad behaviour, as a result of their autonomy which he provided for them after he convinced them at ages 14 and 16 that they need not heed me anymore or "jump through hoops" (means rules like bedtime, homework time, and I needed to always know where they were going along with the phone numbers) (he says to them your mother is a control freak. Given their autonomy at such a young age, it wasn't two years of being around him and other such peers that they engaged in drinking, drugging, sex, and such a loose lifestyle with no rules that they one thing at a time lost their educational opportunities, dropped out of their church activities, in exchange for the party, which i later found out was primarily at the P-dad's house with his blessings.

Let me put it this way: My daughter was accomplishing Violin in orchestra, in the honor society, and loved plays through the sophomore year in highschool, when this happened, the dad said she either had to go to work or else forgo buying nicer clothes and other things. On obtaining a job, and whatever else she had to deal with from her choice to runaway from my house into his and obtain total autonomy and freedom, were the sacrifices which drove her into a depression and she dropped out of all those things and took up with her Pakistany manager who was a violent character with no emotions like her dad P.

That was eight years ago, and she has been fired twice, dropped out of college for not completing homework in the first semester for which her Dad was supposed to pay, but which he had her only sign the student loan papers and then didn't help her meet her obligations in any way. (He was bound by court order to see that she went to college if she wanted to, not make her pay for it. not keep her from having the ability to come to a quiet place and study) Like reminding her, or providing a place of structure where she could come to and accomplish her life goals or attempt to. He did this on purpose i find out later.
She is down three DUI's in less than 10 years now, a sex addict, and on drugs. Yet she bicycles to work everyday anyway and somehow keeps going. All the while each day that goes by she becomes more and more enraged with herself, and blames me, and protect him at the cost of our relationship.

He, used to revel in torturing me, and when I dropped out and slapped a court order on him, he charmed the kids to seeing things his way for the purpose of himself not paying and not abiding by the rules the court handed him. He is pleased as punch how this turned out, and says "your mother was always a loser and so you are too, you can't avoid your fate, and that was handed to you by your mother by her loser genes." (and I am stripping some other four letter adjectives).

I don't want to get into what is happeing with my son here, because the example listed above is enough to tell you what has been going on. We are and have always gone through with his antics, and chaos. All the while, he so convincingly loves us by word, but by deed, it must be plain that he hates us with every cell in his being. He really has them snowed. To this day, they think he sacrificed so much for them to be free at a younger age than their peers, and fear (that he put in them) that he could have gone to jail for giving them this, their life. so that they think that they are completely responsible for everything they have done based on their decision to help their dad get out of the court order he said was destroying him and also convincing them that it was based on neurotic lies about him by me. They bought that because he also handed them or promised to hand them a lot o f money if the need for their testimony arose in order to protect him from me. So this puts them in the position psychologically albeit lie based, of power, caretaker, and sort of god in his life. Is it any wonder they put up with all his other stuff. He loves them.. if they only knew. How can they know when he is their dad, and this is all they have ever known and he has both charmed and convinced them that the way i am is not reality, only what his world is is reality.

I just wanted to let you know that for these past eight years of silence from them, (which is nothing short of torturous worry for me) (and he knows this) I have always thought tomorrow they will come back to me - and what a mess i will have to help straighten out, and have not been able to really go on with myself, free of them - Until I read about this disorder, and specifically came to know from your account how this isn't just me, and it isn't just them, and there really is nothing else for me to do. I lost the battle. Only God Almighty in his great protection and wisdom can decide the ultimate outcome for these two damaged children. If there is justice at all here or there, then so be it. I have to let it go no matter how that makes me feel. It has taken me eight long years to come to this finally in my heart of hearts. But your letters and insights - is the first I have known that there is a way to communicate these kinds of atrocities against us. For I have been long searching for a law that he has broken that I can prove against him. He is too slick for hat having been brought up on many charges of violence in the past. He got smarter and more devious.

But reading about this and that there are so many others taken in by the charming ones who sell us on our dreams so they can have theirs, if they even have any. That is what freed me last night. The sadness of these losses will always be there, but the connection I have carried with me with my children in me and thinking i need a three bdr in case they come home, instead of just getting what ever I need - all the mental exercises included the two of them even though they are not here today, I am thinking tomorrow, they will be and we will all work through this together. It's not happening. I am a slow learner. Your postings are what brought home to me on an emotional level, what it is I was in and so now, I realize on an emotional level that I will be just me. They are whoever they are, and I am who I am. Just me. Form me that is highly difficult, for them, they are always like that. I didn't know this.

I am enrolled in full time studies, now, and have moved into what I consider paradise, and things are finally going rather well for me. Things are beginning over again. I am liking this. I have to work really really hard tho. I have lost an awful lot, everything I owned, myself, my family, quite nearly my life when this happened.

I am happy with the smallest things now, appreciate hearing the birds in the trees, and love my city i am in the now. I pray every night, and slowly I am returning back to something of my prior self, although I'll never never be the same again. Pray for the children. They were all born good. It is what we do and how we care for them that makes the impact on who they will become in our society. Pray for our children and love them. Especially in their absence. It matters. It has effect. Thank you for your postings.



Edited by Posey (10/09/05 04:17 PM)

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#3827 - 10/10/05 09:25 AM Re: General Discussion [Re: Posey]
Mati Offline
member

Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 169
Oh my God Posey

My heart goes out to you and one thing that struck me was...this is early days for me and it will get worse. It gives me some comfort to know that I am not the only one who has had their children stolen from them and left without the most precious comfort at all....a sons/daughters love. I so identify with the tricks your p got up to to enmesh your children. Mine said the same thing...that I am a control freak and always made a point of letting them know that He trusted them totally and I did not for example over complete unhindered access to the internet for a 13 year old boy in his bedroom. Guess who the boy sided with? He bought them with money he borrowed and will not be paying back, hiding it all from me and letting me fret about where a boy of 17 gets 7 pairs of expensive trainers all in his size when the family are on wefare?

Well you know the things I am talking about. My 23 year old has started university and wants to be something but I know fine well that he will not be able to do it and will drop out and drop into something to ease the failure after failure he has had in the chaos his father has caused but does he call his father on it? No of course not. I have made his father like he is and he cannot help the terrible depressions and the 'emotions' that cause him to be irresponsible. And all the while I am getting more and more of the blame.

I thought that things were improving but p was not going to allow that and it looks bad. He has been getting at them and now they do not want me to go to the house any more (they did not come to me so I had to go to them to see them) Now they say that I boot their father out and they think it is not fair (I only asked for time with my sons)

And things have turned real nasty now. I told them that their father and I were discussing getting together again (I have been praying that God would change him as I know it is the only way) and he says that he is prepared to change. Anyway, they said that he told them no way would we get back together and the eldest son started shouting at his father saying he had lied. I tell you, the way p acted with me then, with such a menacing look on his face and mouthed threats that I could not understand (so the boy could not hear them) has really scared me enough to make me see that i must stay right out of his way. I am reporting his menacing behaviour to the police when they decide to turn up and have got the sofa pushed up to the door. I am scared. I never knew things were as bad as this.

I can only say that i am feeling the same pain as you and i cannot bear it sometimes but I know that I must do as you have done and walk away from it and give up my hopes that my sons will be with me so i can help them and I must stand by and watch the destruction of their lives, and one of them is so gifted and clever.

I do not think that I will try to see them again now. If they come to me then maybe it is just drawing it out as their father will not rest until they reject me totally, that is his aim. He was trying to keep contact to give himself fuel to further the estrangement by taking back tales of what I had said and going back crying because of 'that [censored]'. One son has special needs and is the surrogate co-dependent spouse. He is a shadow of what he was and is hostile to me most of the time. So it is just going to be time and I too am fighting a losing battle. What can we do? Just pray and leave the future in God's hands and trust Him when He said that He will bind up the broken hearted.

You are in my thoughts and prayers. Thanks for responding. It has meant a lot. I am so pleased that things are improviong for you. I have been getting involved in domstic abuse activism and hope that I will be able to be of some help to others.

from one broken heart to another
Mati


Edited by Mati (10/10/05 09:27 AM)

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#3828 - 10/26/06 06:25 PM Re: General Discussion [Re: Dianne E.]
private007 Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/06
Posts: 3
I am looking for a little help. I have a 14 year old who is sooo very good at lying that he has convinced his group counselor that he was sexually abused.

Let me begin again. My son is not the child I knew 3 years ago. He lies about everything. he hurts our dog when he thinks we are not looking, he is a school bully, we have to tell him to shower, brush his hair and teeth every day, and he sexually assaulted our 3 y/o grand son.

In his group therapy he revealed that my soon to be husband sexually abused him. When he was faced with talking to the police he recanted stating he was mad and wanted to get even with him because he is always harping on him to do everyhting. He also stated that he wants to live elsewhere because then he could do what he wants when he wants. He has said in the past that he deserves better than we give him and that he should have what he wants when he wants it.

We are at our wits end because he had recanted the abuse alegation only to recant to the same people he recanted to initally. Now I have the state steppping in for interviews and possible jail time for my fiance and me. He changed his story 3 different times and his group coounselor told him that he will beleive him no matter what he says but he knows that my son was not lying when he first made the accusation. He has gone so far as to tell us, the parents one thing, while telling my 14 y/o another.

I have never been more upset and frustrated in my life.

The accusation is just another in a long line of accusations.

My son is soo good at embelishing a story, you really have to pay close attention to what he says and does inorder to know if he is lying. He can be faced with the proof and he will deny it with a straight face.

He has no conscience, feels no empathy, and feels no guilt. We have also caught him stealing fom us and playing with fire.

What do we do? We have a psychologist saying he has some serious issues and the partner of the psychologist saying we are bad parents. When asked if he has RAD or ODD he stated we were looking for a way to blame our son for bad parenting. Keep in mind that this therapist has only spoken to me for about 15 minutes, on 2 different occasions.

Any advise, direction would be greatly appreciated.

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#3829 - 10/26/06 06:58 PM Re: General Discussion [Re: private007]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi private007, welcome to the forum. Your story is so very sad and must be more difficult than most of us could handle.

We have some information about RAD and/ Fledgling Psychopaths here at the forum, if you haven't seen it, please let me know and I will get the links for you. I just set it up as a seperate forum but am having some difficulty moving the "threads" over from the Family Section, the software guy is away for awhile.

Some good news is Dr. Hare has a youth version of his testing for your son's age. I would call around and find someone who has taken Dr. Hare's course and is familiar with defining Psychopathy in teens. It may take some work but information is power and hopefully someone trained in this field will help guide you.

To claim you are bad parents with such glaring problems is mind boggling. My own opinion is a person from mars would see your kid has some problems beyond what you can probably deal with and need some serious help to protect your rights.

I hope you are keeping a very detailed journal to back up your situation. If it is legal where you live I would personally set up some recording devices to get him on tape. I did some research not too long ago and those "nanny cams" are pretty reasonable, I think they are legal everywhere, what is not clear is some states you can record someone say via the phone without their permission and get in trouble.

Just out of curiosity, have you seen his eyes change when he is mad?

I never had children and frankly my heart goes out to you and stories like this back up my decision to not have any. In some places kids get all the rights.

Please let us know what we can do to help you and support you. I can feel the pain in your post, it has to be a horrible position to be in.

Di

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#3830 - 11/01/06 10:34 AM Re: General Discussion [Re: Dianne E.]
private007 Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/06
Posts: 3
Thank you. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am the type od person that writes down date, time and who I spoke with at what number. I document everything. My file is over 3 inches thick.

The problem we are now facing is that his therapist will not release him from his program in order to admit my son to another program. We have to have the state step in and go back to court, once again.

So for now we have to have a 3rd party stay with us so it will no longer be our word against our sons word. Neither one of us are allowed to be alone with our son, nor let him be alone with anyone else. This was strongly recommended because originally it was set up to have my son admited to a facility that would properly diagnose and start some sort of treatment, but since his therapist has decided that we as parents are the problem we are not allowed to leave the state or the county. I can't have him go to juvenile jail because he is not allowed to be around other kids without supervision, so we have to restructure our hime, work and family's lives.

I have not slep in my bed. I have to sleep in the hallway so I will be able to prevent my son from coming in contact with anyone at night. I can't lock his door that is an infringement of his rights and a fire hazard and I would be arrested. So I removed the lock so my sone could not accuse us of doing this because he stated he did not know it was illlegal for the parents to lock a kid in their room. All said with a smile on his face.

Florida is the worst state to recieve any help in. They consider the parents the root of all problems and when you try to get help, you are an overreactive parent.

What help is available? I am entering into a world I thought I was rid of when my brother left. He was 14 when all his p problems came about. I have not made contact with him in over 20 years. He left hoe after trying to chock me to death in my sleep.

Any information, at this point, would be wonderful!

Thanks for all the support. We need it.

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#3831 - 11/01/06 11:04 AM Re: General Discussion [Re: private007]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi, thanks for answering. How does your son act around this third party? Like a real charmer? From all I have read about these kids they can be very tricky because they will lie like crazy and act totally different around others.

There is a show on MSNBC that I finally caught the entire show the other night. The first time I only caught part of it. The kid was adopted from Russia and diagnosed with RAD. The father really didn't understand the problem with the mother & kid because the kid acted fine when he was around, which I have read a million times at the RAD forums. Anyway, the kid was into self mutilation and the father left for a golfing trip for some bonding time with the mother and kid. All hell broke lose being left alone and the mother was accused of child abuse because the kid died. Personally I believed the mother but because she acted "detatched" etc when the kid died, the system, the therapists and the jury basically hung her out to dry. When the jury saw the photos they all "assumed" it was the mothers fault and would not accept the kid did it to himself. Also the two therapists she was consulting with didn't give her any help and actually helped sink her in the eyes of the jury by their statements. She wound up with a 16 year prison sentence and was released in 8 years, in the meantime her husband had died of cancer. I am racking my brain to remember what State they were in. Something inside of me says Florida but I can't confirm it, I was so spellbound by the terrible rap the mother took for an evil kid.

If the third party is there, where do they sleep or do they just come around during the day? How about putting an alarm on the kids door and/or doors in every room so you can monitor where he is? Frankly I would alarm all the doors to make sure he wasn't harming any others, the animals etc. and restrict his movement inside the house.

I hate to sound cold but is the state trying to put him into foster care? I would be worried about liability and how this is back firing on both of you. I agree, Florida is a State that I was reading about quite awhile ago and the massive flaws. They have a really broken system. I would guess they aren't the only state. It seems to be an issue all over that gets very little attention, unfortunately for the parents, the kids and society in general.

I can't tell you enough how my heart goes out to you.

Di

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