hi everyone. i am really glad i found this site.

i haven't had a lot of time to look around, and this seems to be a pretty big site, so if the answer to this question is already posted someplace i would really appreciate being directed to it.

how would you determine if you have/had a parent who is a psychopath? i haven't seen my father in 19 years (thank god). i am now almost 37. my father has to be the most conscious-less person i ever met.

thanks.

jamie

In reply to:

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how would you determine if you have/had a parent who is a psychopath?

---

As you have no contact with your father, one course - psychiatric diagnosis - is irrelevant.

There is no simple answer, and it is not a question anybody can answer for you.

The only thing you can do is learn as much about the subject as you can and then ask the the question of yourself.

If you intend to seriously address this question, there are a couple of books that I reccomend you buy (available from Amazon)

"Without Conscience" by Robert Hare
"The Sociopath Next Door" by Martha Stout

Its a complex and evolving field in which there is both a deficit of basic research - schizophrenia for example has been far more heavily investigated than personality disorder - and where there is a wide variety of opinion.

Theres a fair ammount of info on the web - very variable in quiality and a lot of it just rehashing other sources. Search terms to use at Google "Psychopath" " Sociopath" and "Antisocial Personality Disorder"

As you have had no contact with your father for 19 years, the qustion of whether he does or does not deserve the label "Psychopath" would appear to be academic. You know WHO he was because you grew up with him, and any conclusion you come to regarding psychopathy will have no practical benefit for you now.

In contrast to your situation, for many people who suspect that the person they are in a relationship with might be psychopathic, the correct answer to the question can have profound implications to the future course of their lives - if they come to the conclusion that their lover / husband / business partner is a psychopath then there is only one possible course of action - the relationship must be terminated, as there is only ever ONE outcome of extended contact with a psychopath: damage - any combination of emotional, physical and financial. A relationship with a psychopath cannot be 'fixed' and the psychopath will never change - thinking otherwise is a trap many people fall into.

Feel free to ignore this if you feel Im being nosy, but why do you want to know? Does it matter at this stage what label you place on you father? Will it help you in some way? (this is just me being curious)

Exactly WHY psychopaths become psychopaths in the first place is very open to question, so just being able to stick a label with an agreed definition on your dad will not tell you a great deal about WHY he BECAME the way he was.

In my opinion the origin of psychopathy is a complex interplay of nature (genetics) and nuture (environmental influences from all sources - parents, siblings wider society) which results in the failure to establish a child-parent bond at a very early age, and then a subsequent failure of the normal process of socialisation - and I repeat thats just my own feeling on the subject.

The trouble is this is also one of the areas about which least is known. I also think that there are likely to be a variety of 'routes' to psychopathy - no single simple cause for the emotional deficit (inablity to process and react in a normal emotional way to external stimuli - the psychopath does not emotionally 'feel' the difference between a photograph of a dieing baby and that of a Duracell battery) which undelies the syndrome - the observed cluster of behaviours, character and lifestyle traits which together are are the outer signs of 'psychopathy'. Even physical damage to the pre-frontal cortex of the brain (e.g. bullet or car crash or infection) will do - sometimes a radical change of character from 'normal' to that of a psychopath will result.

i said i haven't seen my father. i didn't say i had no contact with him. he e-mails me almost daily. mostly it is just to say things like i am a useless waste of space, but sometimes they are actually threatening to harm me, my wife, or my daughter. i don't respond to any of this, i simply save it on disk and forward a copy to my attorney. that way if something does happen there will at least be a reason to look at him.

the question is largely academic at this point. i just happen to be a weirdo who likes lables. it makes me feel that i have a sense of control which was sorely lacking when i was growing up. in that respect it has immense benefit to me.

no, knowing if my father is a psychopath will not help me make the kinds of decisions i would need to make if i was still in direct contact with him. i did just what you suggested and terminated the relationship the day my twin sister and i left for college. but for me on a deeply personal level, it's important to come to some conclusion about why he did the things he did.

thank you for your reply. it gave me some things to think about, which i like. i will get those books, also.

jamie

Hi Jamie28

I read your post and JAM's response with interest. I think JAM always provides a good, practical response with clear descriptions.

I want to add something on the emotional side. Even if you had no contact with your father I can see why you would want even need to know why things happended, why he did things, is there a reason, is he ill? etc etc. I have no contact with my ex, but he is the father of my child, and I still ask these questions. I need to know for my sake, and my daughter's. I need to know if he is likely to come back playing more mind games in the future.

It must be awful for your wife and daughter having him threaten you all, even if they don't see the mail, I am sure they can sense when something is worrying you.

I think you should keep up your research as it is important to try and answer these questions but you must also protect your family from harm.

It can also be beneficial to write down your story and how you feel - then you can either post it here if you would like some feedback, or burn it!

I am always keen to hear the comments of children of suspected Ps - because of the struggle I have had with the system and the lack of recognition of the consequences of being in a relation ship with a P. Another poster was just asking about raising public awareness - as this is so difficult to do. The children of P's should be heard and their views taken seriously when it comes to forcing contact between a P and his/her child.

Was your mother and twin sister able to escape from his influence too? ( Don't answer if you don't want to)

I know that my 5 years with a P left me in a scrambled mess which I am still working through, I dare not think what being brought up by one would do to me.

Hope you keep posting.

Good luck

Recovery

In reply to:

---

i said i haven't seen my father. i didn't say i had no contact with him. he e-mails me almost daily.

---

Do you reply to ANY of his email, Jamie?

and what other contact do you have?

As he is dirctly threatening you and Your family, I suggest the best thing to do is a) break off ALL communication of whatever type. b) talk to your attourney about a restraining order.

Personally if anybody was threatening me, I'd phone the police as a first step. Explain the situation and see if you can persuade them to visit and talk to your dad. Perhaps a visit an a quiet talk from a couple of burly coppers would convince your dad that you don't like being threatened - or take it lightly.

recovery-

was my mother able to escape his influence? she left us when we were 12 and our older brother was 14. none of us have heard from her since. i understand why she left, but i will never understand why she didn't take us with her.

my sister and i both have a lot of emotional problems. i have been in therapy for all of my adult life. i probably will be until the day i die. my brother has asked that we have no contact with him. he says he just wants to "forget it all" and get on with his life. i hope he has managed to do that.

i probably will end up writing down the story here sooner or later. i'm not particularly shy about it and have told it in other places. i have to be feeling pretty stable to do so, however, and the last few weeks have been pretty rough so i will wait until i am in a better frame of mind.

best of luck to you and your daughter. my heart goes out to you.

jamie

JAM-

i don't reply to any of his e-mails. ever. i can't really stop him from e-mailing me. i could block the e-mails, but i choose not too because i do want proof in case anything should happen. as for restraining orders, we have them out the wazoo. i'm also the co-owner of a company that designs and sets up security systems for businesses, and our house has a similar security system to most small banks.

i have contacted the police and mostly been told that since he is in another state they can't do anything. when i contacted the authorities in the state he lives in i was told that unless he breaks a restraining order they can't really do much.

my father is very, very intelligent, extremely charming, and to put it lightly "financially secure". even if the police did talk to him i have a feeling he would turn it around so that "his poor mentally ill son" seemed to be making up stories. this happened to me while we were growing up. i have no doubt it would happen again.

the e-mails are bothersome, and i do take them seriously. i have also done everything i can think of to keep myself and my family safe.

it's good to find a place where people actually take my concerns seriously. i appreciate it.

jamie

In reply to:

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i don't reply to any of his e-mails. ever. i can't really stop him from e-mailing me.

---

Hmm... exactly what and why some offences are 'State' and some are 'Federal' has , as a Brit, always been a total mystery to me.I think its something promoted by Hollywood. The bad guy on the run making for the state line makes wonderful cinema.Especially when he's on foot making for the bridge over the river and the sherrifs deputies and dogs are close behind... I seem to be going off topic....


Ok...

I see you have verything pretty well taped on the practical side... I do find it odd that although he is not getting any response from you that he still persists in sending email...

Normally when you institute a regime of no contact with a P they will persist ( for quite some time!) with attempting to make contact but will eventually give up if you don't respond - the whole point of the emails is NOT to communicate anything to you, but simply to get you to REACT.

Hence the abuse and threats. He's attempting to get you wound up emotionally to the point where you snap back at him... dragging you down to his level...'You're just like me really'

.. at which point your dad will be sitting there in front of his computer reading your rant... with a grin on his face like a fox picking sh*t out of his teeth with a wire brush...

as far as his emails are concerned, I wouldnt even open them. Just set up a junk mail rule (based on his email address) which will sort them into their own folder when you recieve them. Every few months export the messages and save to CD

i can't say i am completely sure i understand why some things are federal and others are state, either.

i think i will try taking your suggestion and just having them sent to a junk mail folder. i don't know if i can really resist reading them, for some reason i feel almost compelled to do so, but it's worth a try.

i suspect that my father knows that even if i don't respond to him the e-mails still get me worked up. he doesn't have to have any response to know that.

this site is amazing. i have had a chance to look at it more and the amount of information is staggering. and all very interesting.

jamie

Hi Jamie 28

Thnaks for your reply. I can imagine that it hurt a lot when your mother left on her own - i'm sure she had reasons, people always do. But you have your own family now, and I am sure you will keep each other safe and strong.

I think it is fine to research the past, as long as you don't live in it. I also think that psychopathy is a sickness - and the P has no choice in what they do - that's what I hang on to when I can't understand what they do.

But that does not change the fact they are dangerous and like to mess with our minds and bodies. Keep up the no contact rule too.

Good luck

recovery

Jamie,

I'm glad you found this forum. That's remarkable that someone (your father no less) can send you threatening emails and the police can't do anything about it! Or maybe it isn't in the way that Ps are ace at finding these little technicalities and exploiting them

My two cents about why he keeps emailing you even though you don't respond. I think Ps are persistent if nothing else and perhaps he hopes that you will eventually get worn down, lose it and re-engage. Also, he must be assuming that you are reading the emails and to the extent that causes you grief, a P would surely get enjoyment out of that realization (related to their need to exert control and cause others to suffer). Given that they're usually attention and recognition-hungy, that seems like another reason. Any way they can insinuate themselves into our lives and cause waves is A-ok. Makes them feel important.

I believe the P who I broke up with many years ago might still be calling me (hang ups etc.). I think it's because they are highly possessive and that way they can still claim space in our minds and consciousness, a squatter of sorts, and also to hassle us. I'm not overly hassled, more repulsed. The guy's a lost cause.

You seem to be doing a good job resisting his attempts to bait you.

Good luck with it.

Sylvie

i decided a long time ago that he is not getting near me, and he is definately NOT getting anywhere near my family. i have a wife and a three year old child to look out for. it's sad that his actions do effect their lives in a way, but it's very true. i have a lot of emotional issues which my wife has to deal with (she's an angel.) and i am so over-protective of our little girl it's crazy. i know it isn't really healthy for the child, or at least as she gets older it won't be, but i can't seem to help it. i know what he did to me and the need to keep that sort of thing from happening to her is unexplainable.

this place has been a god-send. i feel so bad for everyone else who has been involved with these people, but it is good to see that others have gone through it and survived, too.

jamie

jamie28
(member)
04/10/05 06:29 PM

hi everyone.
i am fairly new here....been looking around for a week or so i guess. i just thought i'd tell you about my experience with someone who i strongly suspect may be a p.

this person is my father.

he is very well educated, extremely intelligent, holds a prominent job, and was born into a very financially well off family.

but it's all a show, a power play for him, i think the man is the most conscience-less person i have ever met.

things were difficult when my twin sister, my older brother, and i were small, but my mother must have taken the brunt of the abuse and manipulation. she was beautiful, but shy and retiring. she would have rather stayed home and painted and spent time with us children. dad used to make her dress up and go to parties and social functions. i remember her crying from the stress of it. if she refused or "misbehaved" while at one of these activities (i never knew what sort of misdeeds she did, but i am sure that my father perceived it as something which reflected badly on him) he would beat her. he was careful never to leave a mark where it would be seen, but i remember her crying and begging him to stop.

we weren't spared from this sort of thing either. if we were "out of line" or "misbehaved" he would beat us, too. usually with a belt across the back where it would be covered by a shirt. wouldn't do for mr. upstanding-citizens children to have visible bruises. someone might ask questions.

when my sister and i were 12, and my brother was 14 my mom left. we came home from school one day in feb. of 1980 and she was not there. her clothing and personal items were all there, but she was not. no one worried to much about it for a few hours, but she never came home. we haven't heard from her since, though a few years ago i did contact some distant cousins and found that at least at that time she was still alive and residing in a different state. i understand why she left. i am glad she got out. i will never be able to forgive her for not taking us with her.

what comes next is.....it's been described as unbelievable. i don't know if i would belive it if i had not lived it.

besides the fact that the physical abuse increased, my father also began abusing us sexually. that is sad and tragic and enough to screw anyone up, but it got worse. he would threaten to shoot us if we didn't perform sexual acts with each other while he and some "friends" filmed us. occasionally my brother or other children were involved, but mostly it was my sister and i. this went on until i was big enough to stand up to him and refuse, i really don't remember how old i was. i figured he was just going to kill me but at that point i just did not care anymore. it went on for several years at least, but i have blocked so much out, and made things so hazy in my mind that i have little concept of time from the time my mother left until the day my sister and i left for college at age 18.

my sister and i did try to tell people at our school what was going on. my father, with all his charm and charisma convinced them that we were mentally ill and making things up. the fact that we went to a very exclusive private school to which he donated huge amounts of money probably did not work in our favor. i remember him setting in the school office with a social worker, the principal, and some other people and crying (crocodile tears)saying how he was "so worried about his poor children, and since their mother left they have been distraught and making things up for attention and he is so busy at work and he is sorry he has been neglectful...blah, blah, blah...."

through all this i saw him with a string of exceptionally beautiful women who he would use and discard at will. of course, he was so charming and could make anyone believe anything so he had no problem finding girlfriends or getting back with the ones he had already thrown away if it suited his purposes.

it seemed that he was (is?) constantly getting accolades and praise for his public service works and hefty donations to charities. he could have cared less about those charities. giving them money was simply a way for him to look good, and possibly to deflect attention away from his less savory activities.

i am now almost 37 years old. i have not seem my father since the day my sister and i left for college. he still sends me e-mails almost daily. most of them are just to tell me how stupid and useless i am, but some are actually threatening. i copy them onto disk and save them, and forward them to my attorney. that way if something does happen to me or my family they will at least have a reason to look at him. i could turn him in for the things he did, but that would mean involving my sister, who has begged me not to "re-live" it. my brother has no contact with us at his request. he says he just wants to "forget it all" and move on with his life. i hope he has managed to do that. in order to respect my siblings i will not tell anyone in a position of authority. they deserve whatever peace they have managed to find.

i have been in therapy all of my adult life and probably will be until the day i die, trying to undo the damage this monster has done. i feel torn by a need to tell and possibly save others from him, and the need to let my siblings live uninterupted lives.

any comments or insight would be appreciated.

jamie

recovery
(member)
04/11/05 01:20 AM

Hi Jamie

I can't stop now as I am at work, but I wanted to say that I am glad you posted your story - and yes, I can't imagine what it could belike to go thru' such a childhood. But you came through, you have your family and I think you have done well.

I understand a bit of what you must feel like knowing he is out there and there is nothing you can do to be believed - it is the waiting for them to be unmasked that can lead to problems. It can be obsessive. I know I keep wishing for my ex to be unmasked - and have to be wary of dwelling on it as it might never happen - they are all so good at manipulating others.

BE strong

REcovery

sylvie25
(member)
04/11/05 12:58 PM

Jamie,

I had not seen your first post before I responded. I am constantly amazed at the various ways in which Ps abuse people and I'm sorry that you and other family members went through so much. I'm also always equally amazed and heartened by what you and others are able to prevail over. It really is a testament to the strength of the human spirit.

In my experience, image is VERY important to Ps. They are the ultimate PR pros.

Wish you and yours well.

Dianne E.
(Administrator)
04/14/05 07:34 AM

Hi Jamie, whew, what a terrible situation. Is there any way that you can avoid reading these emails? It must bring you daily pain to do so. I think JustAMan had a great suggestion to save them to disk. The bad energy of even reading them sounds very painful for you.

Have you ever found out where your mom went or had any contact wtih her after all these years?

Di

jamie28
(member)
04/14/05 11:50 AM

i don't know why i feel so compelled to read the e-mails, but i do. maybe some day i will be able to stop.

i contacted some distant cousins a few years ago and found out that my mother is alive and well in another state. assuming she hasn't moved since then, i have her address. i can't see much point in contacting her, though. i don't want to disrupt her life of cause her any pain, and i don't know how i could possibly avoid telling her at least some of what happened. maybe not at first, but eventually, i would end up telling her. i don't want to guilt trip her or have anyone hurt any more than they already have been due to my father's actions. yes, i am angry and very hurt that she left us in that situation, but while she was there, she was a really good mom. she must have loved us, and it could not have been easy to leave. i don't want to add to any feelings of remorse she may have because of what she did. that is the only thing that could come of me contacting her.

it wouldn't surprise me if he made her make the choice to leave, and leave us with him, or be killed or something.

thanks for this site. all the info is invaluable, and just being able to vent my feelings and know that people won't belittle me or accuse me of lying is very healing.

jamie

Dianne E.
(Administrator)
04/14/05 01:15 PM

Hi Jamie, it is good to know that your mother is at least safe. I am sure when the time is right you will do what you need to do. I can certainly understand why it is hard not to read the emails. I am sorry to see you having to go through so much pain. It is good the site is helping you with this very difficult situation. No matter how hard your dad tried to ruin you it seems like you turned out to be a very decent and kind person.

Di

recovery
(member)
04/14/05 01:42 PM

Hi Jamie 28
I was just thinking about your mother, and I think you are probably right about her being forced to leave. In this case she probably has been feeling guilt for a long time. Maybe being in touch with you might help both of you to heal. I think that even the hurt of finding out what happened to you would be balanced by seeing how you have made a good life for you and your family. Of course I could be wrong, but could it be worth a try (only if you could cope with the worst reaction she might give you)?

I hope you continue to get some help here too.

Good luck
Recovery

jamie28
(member)
04/14/05 01:58 PM

i can't imagine leaving my little girl in a situation which could in any way be detrimental to her. i'd get her out somehow, even if that meant leaving and coming back for her later. but i can't really place blame on my mother. i don't know the situation, i don't know what happened or why she left. for all i know maybe she tried to get us.

i may contact her someday. i am not ready yet, and i don't know if i ever will be. maybe.

jamie

Liz50
(member)
04/17/05 06:00 AM

Hello Jamie,

There are no words to describe the horror of your childhood!! Hopefully, that has been validated for you again and again in Therapy. If not, it should be.

For you and others like you, having a psychopath for a parent, is a nightmare that never ends! My Therapist told me, "if you break the link, they will create new ones". Off the chart psychopaths (if there are degrees to this pathology), like your Father, will always make links, and my fear is that your daughter will become a link he attempts to create and perpetuate.

You need to read his emails. You're compelled to do so out of fear I'm sure, and that fear is justified! You're in a particularly precarious position because your father has money, and can use his money to create more trouble for you as you alluded to in one of your replies on this forum.

Everything that you instinctively fear your Father can and will do, is correct! Short of moving to a remote Island in the Pacific, you will always have to stay a step ahead of your Father and anticipate his moves. That's why you need to read his emails. Through them, he plays out his hand, so you always know where he is and what he's thinking. If that stops, prepare to remove to a remote Island...or make sure you have tons of law enforcement support, legal support, and any other support you can.

I would recommend for your daughter's sake that you get in touch with your Mother. This is more of a protective thing, than sentimental advice. If it works out that way, that would be wonderful, but that's not where your feelings are at this point, so its more of a strategical move and I think from that standpoint it is very important! Your mother is remembered as very loving, so I doubt she'll reject you, especially if she understands what your father is still trying to do, with her Granddaughter no less. There is strength in numbers. I have a feeling your mother had no support, and to save her sanity, she elected to leave, hoping no doubt that your father would not dare touch his own children! Mothers are like that; even with all the evidence to the contrary....She probably had zero confidence in her ability to take care of you, because as sure as I'm writing this, she was on the brink of losing her sanity!

Anyway, I'm not writing to defend her, but to tell you that you've got to marshal up whatever support you can, because this psychopath WILL NOT stop until his last breath is done or he gets too sick to make much noise! Until then, you, your daughter and your wife are at risk!! Moreso though for your daughter, and any other children you may have. Why?? Because the psychopath feeds off the young, the sick, the elderly, the emotionally and mentally disturbed!

I'm sorry if this seems frightening, alarming, and to the point! Its important that if you have not understood the gravity of your situation, then you need to do so now! Psychopaths get away with murder and mayhem, because they say all the right words, even though they don't know the music and many people and so-called experts are so easily seduced by words!

If you'd like to email me privately, please feel free to do that. (*email deleted).....Like I said before, I understand the continued nightmare that you're living!

Liz

**Hi Liz, Welcome to the forum, I edited your email due to forum policy, I hope you will understand, Di

Edited by Dianne E. (04/17/05 07:08 AM)

jamie28
(member)
04/17/05 09:17 AM

thanks for the reply liz. and yes, i am very aware that i have to "stay a step ahead of my father". when the person who is now my business partner (he had been a college friend) offered me a position designing and setting up security systems i jumped at it mostly for that reason. now i co-own the company with him. both of those moves were conscious decisions based on what safety one can find in electronic security. it isn't the be-all and end-all, but he would have one hell of a time getting in my house, or even into my yard.

i also have 2 great danes. yes, they are pets, but the one thing my dad was always scared of is dogs. especially big ones.

i worry constantly about my wife and little girl. at this point, i work from home (mostly) so i can stay with her during the day. she doesn't go anyplace without her mother or i or on a rare occasion my sister and brother in law who understand the situation. yeah, we don't get out much, but it's worth it to know she is with adults who will protect her. i don't know what we will do when she is old enough for school (she is 3 now). i want to home school her, but my wife thinks she needs the chance to be around children. i can see her point, but i am terrified of letting the child out of my sight. i know i am eventually going to have to let her have a life of her own, but no one understands how scary that is for me.

i know that he won't stop until he is, as you put it, dead or too sick to continue. if he was going to stop he would have a long time ago. i hang on to the knowledge that he is in his late 60's now, and he should be getting to a point where he just doesn't have the strength to keep it up somewhere in the next 20 years or so.

i will think about what you said about contacting my mother. i never really saw it in quite that way before. i fear that no matter how much she may want to help, if i contact her it will just add to any hardships she may be facing. if he has left her alone, he may start targeting her (and any important people in her life)again. i don't think i will ever get over the anger i have that she left us, but i don't really want to cause her any trouble in any way, either.

in one way i am fortunate. i live in a small town in which my brother in law is a very respected paramedic. i think he knows every cop in the state (seems like it anyway)and even if they can't really DO anything, they are all aware of the situation.

thanks again for the reply. it is good to know there are people who understand.

jamie

Hello Jamie,

I just read your story and your plight. Very tough situation you are in. People, with all sincerity and kindness can offer you advice, but the reality is that you will have to, in the end, make decisions and work the majority of the issues out for yourself and in a manner that works best for you and your plight. Also to be considered are all the issues that you must mentally and emotionally deal with and I think that it is of utmost importance that you take these issues on as you are capable of. At your own pace, if you will. Too much at one time will not be constructive for you. Do not allow anyone to push you past that point. I say this from experience.

Thus far, I have refrained from going very deeply into my childhood on this forum as I did not find it all that pertinent to the discussions I have gotten involved in. In life, I choose not to as well, unless I think it may be constructive for the receiver of the information or insightful in some sense.

My childhood runs in parallel to yours in many respects. However, in comparison I believe yours to be more spiritually devastating. I had a father who was protected by money and influence. My mother was not like your mother. Plainly put, she was nothing more than a selfish bimbo brain, probably bordering on a narcissistic personality. My father was selfish as well, and with some mental problems, tho’ I wouldn’t classify him as psychopathic, but he definitely had issues. Long story short, by the time I reached seven years of age, my parents marriage began to fall apart, largely due to immaturity in both and their individual sexual promiscuity.

My father, not wishing to lose the “money” influence he had, began threatening my mother and the four of us children with death. His brother held the position of District Attorney for the city in which we lived. His brother was all too willing to get my father out of the fixes he got himself into with his influence. This only served to embolden my father. I have been looking down the “wrong” end of a gun on several occasions. By the time I was 10, I understood that he was quite capable of pulling the trigger. In fact, one time the gun did go off. Fortunately, no one was hurt.

When I was eleven and sat in front of my father, along with my sister and mother, and listened to one of his tirades about how he would and could kill us as he brandished about his gun, I was mentally contemplating how to “escape” and get help. I concluded that if I went missing for a little too long and my father “lost it” and killed my brothers and sister and mother, I would not be able to live with myself, therefore it would be better to just accept the possible fate of death with them. Mental anguish and torment I am very much familiar with. When I was nine years old, I had a nervous breakdown.

His brother, the DA, decided my father had become a “political” liability when he was seeking another office and “washed” his hand of my father. The slap on the wrist my father got was a stint in a mental institution for about four months. In actuality, he should have been jailed. At this point in time, my mother decided to run off with her petty criminal (and psychopathic) lover with the four of us in tow. We went from the frying pan into the fire.

My “stepfather” physically beat us, in much the same fashion you describe with no visible marks. He also attempted to molest me at age twelve and again later at age sixteen. Both times I fought him off. And both times I informed my mother, unlike most children confronted with the same situation. And both times my mother believed his account of the story, which was that I tried to seduce him. At age seventeen, I got away from this situation.

I have given a rather condensed version of my childhood nightmare. However, it took about twenty years to work out all the “issues” that were my own personal issues to deal with.

Both my parents are now deceased. Also, I was never “pursued” by either of them or my stepfather as you are by your father. I did maintain ties with my mother. She did change to a large degree, but for the most part it was a “strained” relationship at best. My father, I banished from my life and my stepfather was thrown in jail for grand larceny shortly after I left. In this incident, my mother was also thrown in jail as an accomplice, which scared the you know what out of her and she “woke” up and ran to her brother for help. This is how she left my stepfather.

I think I do have some understanding of what you mentally have to deal with now. With time and constructive help, you can and will get past it. I don’t necessarily believe that everyone needs “professional” help on all issues. “Self-help” can be very useful and give you better insight sometimes.

I truly hope you will be able to end this insane behavior of your father. It appears you are dealing and handling it in a rational manner. Psychopaths so many times are innately capable of deceiving with few the wiser. I imagine how frustrating this must be for you.

If you have any questions for me or wish to discuss some particular aspect of this, I am open to such. I offer this, as sometimes discussing with others who have experienced something similar can be beneficial and/or insightful.

Wishing you the best and a better future.
MCN

MCN,

thank you for your thoughts. it is good to find someone who has some understanding of how money can make a bad situation worse in some cases.

i agree that in the end i have to work out the issues for myself, as do we all. i am a huge believer in self-determination, and i am determined not to let what happened to me ruin the rest of my life. maybe i push myself to get over things too quickly on occasion, but if so that is just because i feel that there has been too much wasted time as it is.

i also don't think that everyone needs professional help. that is just the route i have chosen and it has been the best for me, i believe. i also have bi-polar illness which i probably would have had to some degree if i had been raised in a perfect family, though i think (and my psychaitrist agrees) that my up-bringing made it much more severe than it would have been if things had been better. so for me professional help was the way to go. but yes, everyone has to decide for him or herself if this is what is best.

i can understand why others who have been in a situation such as mine may choose not to go into much detail about it. i just find it helps me to feel more in control to be open about it. i had to hide what was happening for so long, and now that i don't, every time i tell it i feel like i am saying a big "F*CK YOU" to my father. it feels good. i also want others who may have gone through similar things to know they are not alone, whether or not they choose to talk about it. i know that reading/talking about some things that have happened to other people have helped me to feel less alone. maybe i can do that for others, even if i never know it. still, i can certainly understand why some people would choose not to be so open about it.

i am sorry you went through something similar. i wouldn't wish it on anyone. but we were both strong enough to survive, and in the end, that is what matters.

jamie

Hi Jamie,

Yes, I have seen money cause more problems than it ever solved.

I see you have the inner strength and resolve to get thru this. For that, I am happy for you. Some don't and I can understand that. Now, when I'm going thru "tough" times, they seem like a piece of cake when I remember what I have endured. I think for people who have gone thru similar situations, this is the "positive" that can come of it. You know you have the strength and you know you have what it takes to get thru it.

As long as you can handle the pace, great! Sometimes "we" can be pushed to far and too fast, that was my concern for you from what I've experienced.

Oh, I can relate to the "hiding it for too long!" My mother never wanted "it" mentioned. I finally told her that she didn't have any special ownership on the past, that it belonged to me as well and that if I wanted to talk about it to anyone I chose, I would. I relate to that feeling of feeling good about talking about it. Exposing these people for what they are is a positive thing in my mind. They are out there and they do exist!! And when I can turn something so negative into a positive by helping someone with this information, it makes me feel like I have again thrown it back in their faces (my parent's). It's like, Ha, you gave me lemons, but I was able to make lemonade of it!

I believe that some of the "information" we hold can and does help others. We can show them they can get thru it and they can have a "happy" life. I agree with so much you have said. That said, I sometimes wonder what made us "different" than others who do have a tough time of it. Like, where did our strength come from? What was our mindset, precisely, that got us thru? How come we were able to maintain our sanity thru it all? I still think about that to this day. Others who I have met or heard of were not so fortunate.

I do hope you can put an end to the torment your father continues. As you said, I too would not wish what we endured on anyone. That your father continues like this is despicable and only underscores his depravity.

My best to you.
MCN

"That said, I sometimes wonder what made us "different" than others who do have a tough time of it. Like, where did our strength come from? What was our mindset, precisely, that got us thru? How come we were able to maintain our sanity thru it all? I still think about that to this day. Others who I have met or heard of were not so fortunate"

i can speak only for myself, but for me it was a combination of two things. the first was the belief that i could do things to make my life better. maybe not right away, but i knew i would grow up and have more control over my life eventually, and i hung on to that belief tenaciously. i think maybe some people really can't see that things will change. i also think some people want things to change without taking any action to make that happen. either way, they end up hopeless. i did not, and i am assuming that you did not, either, though you may have felt that way from time to time.

the second factor that kept me going is that i have never and will never forgive my father. i think too much emphasis is placed on forgiveness in some situations. (this is just my opinion, feel free to disagree). if someone really thinks that forgiving someone for putting them through what amounts to years of torture and depravity can help them "get over" it, then good for them. to me it would feel very un-natural indeed. i have used that anger, hatred, and pain to propel myself forward and achieve things neither my father or myself would thought possible for me. i guess you could say i did it all to spite him.

again, these are just my thoughts/opinions. everyone has to deal with things in their own way, this is just what i have done, and it has worked for me.

jamie

Hi Jamie,

I agree with you on "our" thinking. Yes, I KNEW when I left I would make a better life for myself and I KNEW that I would never, never allow anybody to do to my children what was done to me. My stepfather used to tell me that I would never amount to anything too. Yeah, like he was really something to emulate. Ugh!! I clung to "my hope" as well and I do agree that some people just cannot "see" that or expect someone to wave the magic wand and it will happen for them.

Maybe I am "analyzing" again too deeply, but I am asking why was it me or you? My reason for digging is just not to KNOW, but the information might help with being able to "get" others to where our minds were and what kept us going. What process went on within us? What needs to be there or not be there?

I agree that some things are just not "forgiveable". But then I honestly think that people sort of "tailor" their forgivenesss in a sense. In my case, knowing what I did about my father's background and why he was the way he was, I was able to "forgive" him and try to start all over again. But, I let him know that although I was willing to "forgive" him, the past was by no means forgetable. Long story short there was it didn't work. Not particularly because of anything he did to me, but to others as well. He was still a hypocrite, and I just didn't need that in my life or the lives of my children. As for my step-father, no I will never forgive him.

However, I find it interesting sharing with you as our "mindsets" are very, very similar. The same things that drive you, drive me. I see a similar philosophy too.

Be careful with the hating, it can be too consuming. For me, I found a way to "harness" it and use it constructively and not allow it to turn and "bite" me. Experience again. Just a word of caution.

Regards,
MCN

Hi Jamie,

Your thoughts about forgiveness struck a chord with me because I too sort of trip over the concept of forgiving those that have done us a lot of harm. I'm big on logic and it just seems so counter-intuitive. Certainly I can understand the part about being trapped in anger and how that can be damaging. However, I think from a P's vantage point, forgiveness would only be seen as a weakness and vulnerability. Something to be scorned and exploited.

The fact that you have been able to channel your anger in a constructive way I think shows a lot of self discipline and grit. I firmly believe that living well is the best revenge - can't say I'm there yet but it's a worthwhile goal to have.

Good for you.

Sylvie

i don't know what process may have gone on in you, or me, or anyone to give hope for something better and determination to make it be so. it may be partly genetic, but that would certainly not account for ALL of what it takes to move on from the sorts of situations we faced. i don't know why i could make things better, nor do i know how i knew that it was up to me to take action to do so. i could not just sit there and hope for change, i had to implement it. maybe it was just that if i didn't have something to believe in i would have just given up, and the only thing i could find to believe in was myself. i really don't know, though i ponder it as well.

i do a lot of informal guiding to teenagers with mental health issues (all over the internet). quite frankly, a lot of them dislike me because i refuse to give in to their pity parties but keep pushing them to decide what in their lives they need to change to make things better, and how they can go about making those changes. i actually get through to some of them. i really think it all depends on the person.

i am well aware that hate can be all-consuming. i came very close to falling into that trap when i was younger. i have learned to harness it and use it as fuel to give myself and my family a good life (good in the sense of happy and fulfilling, not good in the sense of money). i also use it to do what i can to help others when i find it possible. hate and anger are powerful tools and i do have to keep on guard to make sure i am always the master of and not the slave to them. maybe this would not be the best way for someone else, but it works for me.

i am more than a little amazed to find someone who thinks so much as i do. interesting. i am enjoying it.

jamie

sylvie,

"living well" is an on-going process. it never stops and it is not something one can "arrive" at. you never wake up one day and say "oh, i am there. i am living well". but day to day you can make your life happier, better, more fulfilling, and yes, it is a good form of revenge.

you may not be there yet, but you CAN do it. just keep at it. it takes time and a lot of work. some people need professional help (i did and still do) others don't. just don't rule it out without considering it.

the simple fact that you are on this site and talking to others who have been through similar things is a big step forward. i have faith in you. just keep at it.

jamie

Jamie,

I think it is a mark of high intelligence when someone is capable of separating out hate and anger and use it in a constructive way. I also believe it is an indicator of strength too.

I have a really good friend who I have known for over thirty years and who shares a background very much like ours. She is the only other person I know who is willing to talk about it and who has done what we have done too. But, she it a bit more touchy about talking about it. It is very interesting and I enjoy it as well.

I feel sort of a relief to know that you have pondered the same issue I raised. I didn't know if it was me just "thinking" too much.

I've also tried to figure out what kept me "sane" throughout it all. I read a lot and "lost" myself in whatever I read at the time. I read some of the children's classics and other classics and just totally immersed myself in them. (Little Women, Tom Sawyer, Uncle Tom's Cabin) I also played with my dolls a lot creating a total fantasy world for myself. I never spoke "outloud" tho' when I played with my dolls as I did not want my step-father to know what I was thinking. Eventually he did catch on tho. I came home from school one day and discovered he had thrown my Barbie dolls away. I was depressed for quite some time after that. Sadistic jerk!! But, that was my escape from reality, and where I sort of tucked my hope for a "better tomorrow."

I also had a school teacher who I corresponded with by mail. She was smart enough to never put anything in her letters about things I had told her. She would just encourage me to do well in school so that I could reach my dreams and suggest different classics for me to read.

I am also encouraged to hear you do informal guiding of teenagers. Level headed adults are sorely needed in this area. I have to admit I have little patience for people who get into "pity parties" and I think it's good that you don't give into that sort of thing. Pity, hand-wringing and such are vampires of motivation. You probably have good insight for those who you are able to reach.

I have enjoyed "sharing" notes with you. I hope I am not being burdensome with it all.

Best regards,
MCN

MCN,
you definately are not being burdensome! i am enjoying it and finding it very enlightening. it's good to "meet" someone who thinks along the lines i do.

i, too, read constantly. anything i could get my hands on. i read children's books, but i also read law journals, shakespeare, kafka, cereal boxes, literally anything! a lot of it was over my head, but that hardly mattered. not only was it my escape, it was often an inspiration as well. i knew that many of the characters i read about were fictional but the fact that they overcame difficult situations gave me some hope that i, too, could do so. i suppose my father let me get away with reading so much because he wanted to look good. having well-read children may have seemed like a good reflection on HIM.

it's good that you had a teacher who kept in touch with you. i don't really recall any adults that i trusted enough to get close to at all. the main source of inspiration for me was my twin sister, i suppose. when one of us was having a hard time of it the other would be there to talk about how things would be in the future. how we would get away and be done with it. we are still close, though not quite like we once were. that is probably a good thing. it was necessary at the time but we would get in the way of each others' lives if it was still the case.

my father didn't much care for pets, but he kept guard dogs. they were mean, i suppose, but i managed to get one of them to respond to me and i would sneak out and spend time with him. i still have dogs. my sister did a lot of horseback riding. i guess we both found some comfort in animals.

i know only one person besides you that i think had a similiar background. i don't even know her in the flesh, she is an on-line friend in another country. she also shares a similar outlook even though english is her second language and she grew up in near poverty. she is an inspiration to me, as well.

jamie

Hi there, Jamie,

I have been thinking of you. I re-read your posts and tried to get some insight as to where you are at mentally at this point in time. I am closer to your father’s age than I am to your age. It was my experience that to settle the issues within myself it took about twenty years. (I am feeding you insight here that you may find helpful. My objective here is to smooth the way somewhat for you. Some people in my life were able to do the same for me thru their experience. I am only extending the same. You may be way past what I have picked up on or it may not be an issue for you. Please do not take this as an insult to your intelligence, for it is not intended to be in any way.)

When I was close to the age you are now, I wanted to know why all that had happened in our family happened. It was not to assign blame to anyone. I just had this burning desire to know and understand WHY. I approached my mother and she gave me an answer that was not honest or truthful. I realized that I would never get an answer from her and had to sort out why for myself. About four years later, my youngest brother was dying and he asked me if I ever wondered WHY what happened happened. I realized that unlike what my mother accused me of (of always dredging up the past, etc. etc.) this was a very typical question for “us”. I related my experience to him. He so desperately wanted to know, and given his circumstance, he was not going to have the time to sort it out for himself. He even begged me to tell him what story our mother had fabricated, but I really couldn’t remember it precisely, because it was a lie. He told me that he was going to ask our mother. At that time, I hoped my mother would be a stand up person for once in her life and give him an answer. For me, it no longer mattered. However, she selfishly declined to answer him and went a step further and accused me of putting the thought in his head to ask. About five years after my brother died, I witnessed her “crossover” into complete denial of the past. I learned this is typical behavior for someone in her circumstances.

If you are able to handle it, I would make an attempt to contact your mother. I would do it by mail first. I will not delve into this or share any further insight with you on this unless you want to. I leave it to your discretion.

We used to have a pet German shepherd who used to “console” me. I honestly believe animals are capable of “sensing” our emotions. It was as if the dog let me know that he knew when I was sad and he would be sad that I was sad. It was like having “something” to turn to when there was no one else. It’s amazing how “we” survived on crumbs for the soul.

I first met my friend of thirty years who I mentioned when I moved next door to her. We no longer live close by but we talk by telephone at least twice a week. She grew up in poverty in the Deep South.

Best regards,
MCN

MCN,

yes, i do wonder why. not so much why my father did the things he did. he was just a sicko who was/is more concerned with fulfilling his twisted desires than anything else. and i don't wonder why my mother left him. that is obvious to me. i do wonder why/how she could have possibly left us behind. i look at my little girl and i know that i would literally die before leaving her in a situation like that.

may i ask why you think contacting my mother would be a good idea? even though i wonder why she acted as she did i am also aware that no answer is really going to be sufficient. if she has moved on and made a life for herself i don't have any desire to drag up things that will cause her pain. there has been enough pain for everyone as it is.

still, i do wonder if it would be possible to have any sort of relationship with her at all. i just don't know and i suppose that would depend on her.

i certainly haven't taken anything you have said as any sort of insult to my intelligence. it's good to find someone who really understands where i am coming from on so many levels.

jamie

Jamie, my friend,

Basically, you have answered why it would be a good decision to attempt to contact your mother. However, you need to consider, to yourself, if you will be able to handle any potential outcome of it. I know you can see where I am headed with this. There are almost endless scenarios as to how this may “work out”, but you are going to have to consider all of them and weigh them against your capacities. And then also be prepared for what you may not have considered because it is not now “knowable” to you. There is much to consider for yourself alone and it may take a little time for you to sort it out.

I asked my mother why as she was the only one who could answer it. There was only one piece to my puzzle that I had not considered at the time. She was undergoing the “process of denial”. I don’t know if you are familiar with this process, but I was not aware of it at that time. Virtually, this is why she did not answer me or my brother. Therefore, I had to formulate my own answer which I believe to be the truth. Plainly and simply it was that my mother loved this sadistic psychopathic stepfather more than she loved her children. But she did not love him more than she loved herself.

To answer your question of why I think it would be a good idea for you to contact your mother. From what I “hear” from you, from what I am intuiting about your situation based on the information you have shared, and because I am a mother and because you admittedly have pondered the possibility, and because you have no desire to upset anyone involved.

Your desire to not upset anyone involved I understand and respect and speaks volumes as to your inner strength and genuine caring.

You have already pondered the possibilities of what it may have been that caused your mother to leave you behind. These are things that only you know about her. All this will go into the mix of making your decision. Because you mentioned your father may have “forced” her to leave and because you know the pain it caused you and because you have a child of your own, you know how painful that may have been for her. Everyone has his or her own limit and tolerance for emotional pain.

Your mother may have lived and be living with her decision everyday. Maybe she is too ashamed to reach out to you and thinks she has caused enough pain in your life and does not wish to be the cause of any more pain for you. Or maybe she has crossed over into denial.

The least “threatening” way you can do this is by mail. Your mother may read your letter and she may not. She may act on your letter and she may not. Are you prepared for either outcome?? Are you prepared to receive and accept the answer?

You stated that you do wonder and you stated that it all depends on your mother. It doesn’t all depend on your mother; some of it depends on you.

HOWEVER, if you honestly believe your statement, "no answer is really going to be sufficient", then possibly this is not the right time for you to attempt this.

As always, I will expound more if you deem it necessary. Again, I leave it to your discretion.

With best regards,
MCN

Hi Jamie,

I completely agree that one can make positive, incremental changes in their lives on an ongoing basis. I have a different view on the latter part. I actually do think you can come to the realization one day that you are living well, whatever that may mean to each individual. In my case, peace of mind is very high on my list of priorities and just feeling fulfilled, personally and hopefully professionally too.

I for one believe in counselling - especially when you find a counselor who you have a good rapport with. As you have pointed out, these things are very individual.

Thanks for your vote of confidence. I too do believe I can get through all of it. We all have those days when we slump and feel overwhelmed but it's that overall optimistic attitude that keeps us moving forward.

Both you and MCN have mentioned that you wonder what got you through your situations. There are books on the subject of resilience: "The Survivor Personality" by Al Siebert is supposed to be a good one. Also, "Winning Life's Toughest Battles" by Dr. Julius Segal (I mentioned this one before). I have read the Segal book and loved it for its simplicity. I think resilience is one of the best qualities one can nurture in their kids.

Cheers,
Sylvie

sylvie,

yes, one can come to the realization that one is living well, but one will probably always have to work to keep it that way. and even though by my standards i am living well, i intend to never stop working to make it even better. just my thoughts on the matter, really.

thank you for suggesting the books. i'll have to read them. i have an on-going list of books i want to read which i just added them too.

i definately have days when i feel overwhelmed and stuck in a rut. however, i know from long experience that those feelings will pass. i just have to do things to help get over them and/or wait it out.

i wish i knew how to nurture resilence. i certainly would never want my child to go through the things i (or others here) have gone through, but life in general can be difficult and i want to give her every advantage.

thanks for your thoughts.

jamie

MCN,

i'm always interested to hear your thoughts. expound away...lol...really, i find what you have to say very enlightening.

i don't know how i would deal with ANY reply my mother may make if i were to contact her. maybe that is why i have not taken any steps in that direction. i don't usually let fear of the unknown stop me, but maybe it is in this situation.

i think it would be easier if my sister and/or brother had some input. my sister remains very bitter about my mother leaving and has basically said that if our mother came and begged to talk to her she would simply refuse. my brother refuses to talk to either of us, so his thoughts on the matter must remain unknown to me. i really feel like i am completely on my own on this. that doesn't mean i won't do it in time, just that i think it makes it more difficult.

any input you have would be appreciated.

jamie

You're welcome Jamie and thanks for your thoughts too.

I too intend to never stop trying to make things better. Anymore though, I tend to make a distinction between challenges that are P-related or not. I'm looking forward to getting to a point where I'm not dealing with P generated issues - I may be a little too optimistic on that front since personality disordered relative(s) are more difficult to walk away from. Not impossible though hopefully.

Yes, I too have wondered about that one, how to best nurture resilience in children. I probably used to be overprotective of my niece and nephew especially when they were younger, but sometimes it's better to step back I think.

Sylvie

Hi Jamie,

Let’s clear up the sibling issue first. Your brother, by choice, has removed himself from the “family equation”. There is little you can do about that, save respect his wishes, which you have done, although it is not your choice. Your sister is not interested in re-establishing contact with your mother. Again, this is her decision/choice. And you have not sorted out for yourself an absolute on the matter. I cannot judge your siblings’ manner of handling the situation, but I am not so sure that it is a “healthy” way to handle it. But as I stated before, everyone has his/her own emotional tolerance. I believe the human mind sometimes forces a reaction in order to protect itself.

If you decide to contact your mother, it is not necessary to involve your brother or sister. You cannot speak or act on their behalf in this matter anyway. In the reverse, I severed ties with my father without involving anyone else in the family, my own children included.

I sense that “family” is very important to you. You are also the “peacemaker”. And I am willing to bet that “you are your mother’s son.” At this point in time you need to sort out precisely why you would make contact with your mother. (To obtain an answer or to re-establish a tie?) From all you have shared, you seem to lean more toward an attempt to re-establishing a tie. Between the two, I think having an answer is of lesser importance to you.

Although you don’t know the exact reasons your mother left, there are some logical deductions to be made. From the way you describe your mother prior to her leaving, she seems to have been loving toward you and a “good mother” as you stated. You also stated your psychopathic father beat her physically. He previously forced her to do things she did not want to do while she was with the family. You don’t know precisely what those things were he forced her to do, but you do have your own experience with him to make a comparison to. The fact that you came home and “all her effects” were still in the house is odd. Was this deliberate to not set off immediate concern, and if so, by whose orchestration? Your mother’s or your father’s? If it was your mother’s choice, I would guess that she did so under extreme circumstances. This is not typical behavior of a mother who cares about her children. And if circumstances were so extreme, she may not have been thinking rationally. Perhaps she had a plan to return for you, but it fell apart or perhaps she feared putting all of you in an even worse environment. (I’m thinking life or death here.) Maybe after she left, she mentally fell apart for years. We could go on with this, but you are intelligent and have most likely already pondered all of it and then some.

Outside of sorting out the above questions, you need to ponder the other question which is, will you regret never having made the attempt? This must be weighed against are you mentally and emotionally prepared for a possible “rejection?” There is no right wrong answer.

“Rejection”. This is not so simple either. The rejection you may face may not actually be a true conscious or deliberate rejection. Your mother may have gone through a “denial process”. (If you are not familiar with this please tell me and I will explain it to you.) Thus, you cannot take it as a rejection of “you.” It is a rejection of the circumstances and not a personal rejection.

Your mother may be too ashamed or guilt-ridden or frightened by the fact that you may reject her, which prevents her from reaching out to you. And you are aware, just by your siblings’ view on the matter, that this is a very real and not imagined possibility for her.

Jamie, I realize this is a lot to consider and will mean some inner reflection for you. There is no right or wrong way to handle this. Only you can answer this for yourself and to and for your own satisfaction and peace of mind.

With kind regards,
MCN

MCN,

"I sense that “family” is very important to you. You are also the “peacemaker”. And I am willing to bet that “you are your mother’s son.” At this point in time you need to sort out precisely why you would make contact with your mother. (To obtain an answer or to re-establish a tie?) From all you have shared, you seem to lean more toward an attempt to re-establishing a tie. Between the two, I think having an answer is of lesser importance to you."

ok....that makes me wonder if you are truely psychic, or if you are somehow involved in the field of psychology. you really nailed that. tempermentally i was always the one most like my mother. i'm really pretty shy, prefer a quiet, simple life and though i can't be sure, i suspect my mother had bi-polar disorder, as well. (though to a much lesser degree than i do). i think i was in some ways her "favorite". quiet, reserved, and musically/artistcially inclined, just like she was. in an unfortunate twist of fate, i look like my father, which i can't stand. i never really look in the mirror, and pictures of myself seriously make me want to cut my face off. we don't have many pictures around here.

yes, family is very important to me. the most important thing i can think of. i guess a lot of people feel that way, but i really don't know.

as for being the peacemaker, i still am in many situations. not just with my family but with my friends, at work, and in just about any situation where there is conflict. people comment on my knack for helping people to understand each other without making anyone feel bad. it really comes easily to me, but i guess that could be because i have had years of practice.

having an answer would be nice, i guess, but i really would just like to get to know my mother again. i don't know if i ever will or not. i keep mulling it over but have not come to a decision yet.

though i am familiar with denial, i don't think i have ever heard the term "denial process". i did a quick search on the internet last night but didn't really come up with anything. could you explain it please?

i think the main thing that keeps me from contacting my mother is that i just don't know if i could deal with rejection. i think i could, but i am not sure. i don't even know why it should matter after all this time, but it does.

any input would be appreciated,

jamie

sylvie,

thanks for the suggestion in your previous post of the books to read. i ordered them both last night.

i still have some trouble determining what issues are generated from dealing with my father and which are not, but it is getting easier with time.

i know i am extremely over protective. i have to remind myself all the time that i need to give my little one some space to just grow and explore. fortunately my wife is good about letting me know when i am over reacting.

jamie

Hello Jamie,

No, I am not psychic and no, I am not involved in the field of psychology. My observations were reached by focusing on what you have shared, reading between the lines and our shared experience. I have been where you are.

Denial is a process. Yes, sometimes it happens “overnight”, (amnesia), but not always. It is the human mind protecting itself from what could destroy it. My mother’s case did not happen overnight and I will relate her plight as I observed it as an example. Please forgive my elementary, layman’s terms here of a denial process.

My mother, who would be judged the responsible person in our upbringing once she ran off with her psychopathic lover, allowed or permitted the psychological and physical abuse of her children. While it was going on, she bought into the twisted reasoning of this psychopath. Once she reached a point where SHE could no longer handle what was happening, (she was thrown in jail due to psychopath’s misdeeds), she fled to the safety of her brother’s home and caretaking. At this point, she had to reflect on what had happened and she realized that she would be held responsible by family and "society”, so she, “covered up” the worst of it. (Mind you, this was easier than one may guess, due to surrounding circumstances, which I will not go into for sake of brevity.) HOWEVER, mentally, she had to deal with it. Because she made “accomplices” of us (her children –thru circumstances- assisted her), over a period of years “dug” herself in. Pretty much, none of us were “permitted” to bring up the past in her presence, or at least not without a scathing accusation of dredging up the past, etc. In short, we kids walked on eggshells around her with regard to the past. If she were not “reminded” of it, it was possible not to think of it or to forget it. Because she went to these lengths, she obviously did fully realize what she had done. So, imagine you wake up one day (if you will), and you had to face what terrible things you put your children through. There is no taking it back. There is no “making up” for it. Mentally, some of us would not be able to live with that reality, literally. Some of us may just plain go off the “deep end” living with this reality and some of us would go into “denial”.

So, for my mother, the denial process was not “facing” it. In her case it was “easy” to do; she had lots of help. As fate would have it, she remarried, moved to a town where no one (her husband included) knew anything of her past. After she “settled” in (within about three years), I recall talking to her on the phone. SHE brought up some child abuse case to me and went on and on about how horrible it was. I was thinking to myself, has she FORGOTTEN whom she’s talking to? At that point, the denial process was complete. And, at that point, I learned about the process when talking to a therapist.

What I am saying is that there is a possibility that something similar has occurred with your mother and why I say a rejection would not be personal.
It sounds as though your situation was similar to mine in the fact that it is very complicated by surrounding factors.

At first (after I learned about the denial process) I was very angry with myself for not speaking up; telling my uncle what really went down and being cowed by my mother to not speaking up. But after considering it more carefully, I realized that had I taken that course, I might have caused her to take another direction. And to what benefit would that be to me or anyone else? My mother and I had a very strained relationship. For me, many times it was stressful. However, my children benefited from their relationship with her. In short, she pretty much treated them as she would have liked to have treated her own children. It took a lot of inner strength from me to continue a relationship with my mother. I had to swallow a lot of pride, forego vindicating myself with other family members (she often did a very good job of painting me as the “evil” one. In actuality it was her attempt, and very successful I might add, at making me out to be a liar if I ever did speak up.) I eventually told the true story to my own children when they were mature enough to understand. They told me they appreciated my sharing it with them as they sometimes wondered why my mother and I seemed to be at odds sometimes.

Since I have been where you are, and have experienced a similar childhood, and have listened to you what you have shared, I think you do possess the inner strength you fear you do not have. Many times, I have underestimated my own. Every time that strength gets tested and I “pass”, I know that I have my past to thank for it. Out of all that negative stuff, that’s the positive I took away from it. In every negative there is a positive and in every positive there is a negative.

From one perspective, you have already faced what you fear. AND you did so with less understanding, wisdom and experience. Think about it.

I think your heart is whispering something to you.

Shared with kind regards,
MCN

MCN,

thank you for your input. i don't know what i will do, i am still mulling it all over. it would be great if my child could have a relationship with my mother, but i don't know if that would really happen anyway. only time will tell i guess.

i think maybe some of this has sort of surfaced because my wife and i have been thinking very hard about having another child. she is an only child and always felt like she missed having siblings. i am still very close to my sister and i can't imagine not giving my little girl the opportunity to have that sort of relationship. but it does bring up a lot of old pain and angst. it makes me question if trying to contact my mother would be a good thing or not.

your insight is invaluable. you have no idea how much you have helped me. i feel like you have helped me clarify some things which will benefit me no matter which way i go. thank you.

any other thoughts you have to share would be appreciated.

jamie

Hi Jamie,

Reaching out to another and having it received with gratitude is one of the greatest gifts we can share. I am grateful to be able to share with you.

You’ve been turning this over in your mind for some time for a variety of different reasons, but it always returns to the same question, doesn’t it?

Your emotions or feelings are very intense. You “feel” for others deeply, whether it be joy or pain. The source of your greatest inspiration for all you do comes thru your wife and daughter. In many ways you are selfless with your giving. But you miss the fact that it is all within you, your wife and daughter only “enhance” what is already there.

You don’t need an answer to one of your questions because you already “know” the answer. You only wish it to be confirmed. This is why it is of lesser importance to you.

Your fear is actually of reliving the greatest disappointment of your life. However, the only way to obtain the answer to the final question is to face what you fear most. In reality, the answer will either be a joyous one or a sorrowful one. It will not, as you fear, contain the same intense pain as you first experienced it. And if it is sorrowful, you have a shelter to return to. Nor will you ever face the pain of regret.

It will not be your curiosity that drives you to the conclusion to obtain an answer; it will be your love.

Some clues for you lie in your view of how you brother has chosen to deal with you and your sister. You should closely examine your feelings on this; your own and what you surmise about his.

Now, no more me guiding you. You have questions, but you don’t know how to ask them yet. When you are ready, we can “talk” again.

With kindness and respect,
MCN

Jamie,

You're welcome. I too intend to get the Siebert book and maybe read the other one again.

For sure, sometimes it's difficult to distinguish what the source of some issues are. I find that too. Guess the main thing is that we manage to work through them.

It's good that you're wife acts as a counterbalance in that respect. That's always helpful.

Sylvie

Hi there Di,

Thanks for the link to the excerpt from the Siebert book.

I was curious exactly what "President Carter's Women In Navy Ships Program from 1978" is. I presume it's something to do with allowing women into the Navy. Actually it brings to mind the Tailhook incident even though I'm not sure if that's the kind of thing you are alluding to. It's taken me a while to get my mind around the fact that all sorts of people can experience PTSD, not just vets. Glad you prevailed.

I find the whole topic of resilience an interesting one. In fact, it always reminds me of the account of McCain's time in Vietnam (have to admit I'm a bit of a fan because he's definitely a tough one).

Thanks also for the articles on corporate Ps. Geeze, is there any area they haven't infested!?

Regards,
Sylvie

Hi Jamie,

Was thinking of you and am checking in to say hello and inquire as to how you are doing. Hope all is well with you and your family.

Best regards,
MCN

things are fine, thanks! i just got to seem my little girl in her 4th of july parade at her daycare center and it was really cute!

i wrote my mom, but as of yet have had no reply. my sister insisted i was stupid and is now rubbing it in my face and saying "i told you so" about it, but that is no big surprise.

how have you been?

jamie

Hi Jamie:

CONGRATULATIONS! You are as courageous as I guessed and as intelligent. I truly, with all my heart, do hope the best for you.

In the event you do not get the response you hoped, do not despair. It may not feel the greatest at first, but you will always know that you made the effort.

May be difficult for your Mom at first. (shame, guilt) She may be wondering how to answer you. I am certain you’ve contemplated this as well.

I am glad to hear you and your family are doing well. Children of your daughter’s age are always so much fun. We feel so responsible for teaching them, but I’m always so amazed at what they teach us!!.

My youngest daughter came to visit me last week and that was a lot of fun. I have been kept busy by work and am involved in a lawsuit taking place 3,000 miles away. Things have been a bit stressful for the moment. But my family (children, brother, and nieces) have all rallied round and they are a great inspiration and wonderful support. We are close even though many miles separate us.

Please always know that I am available to share with you and discuss whatever you wish. I feel a “kindred” spirit with you and you are in my thoughts.

With all kindness,
MCN

i still haven't heard anything, but she will either respond or she won't. it's out of my hands now, and i feel ok with that. a little sad, yes, but basically ok.

i agree, i have learned more from my little girl than from anyone. she just amazes me. i had no idea that children of such a young age could be so kind and compassionate, but she really. she is the first to try to comfort another child that is hurt, and when my (very old) dog yelped the other day she patted him and wanted him to go right to the doctor. he has some arthritis, so we settled for giving him his medicine instead.

a lawsuit 3,000 miles away sounds like a royal pain. it's bad enough when it is in the same town you live in! i hope it all turns our however you want it too. it is good that you have your family to support you.

sorry it took me awhile to respond. the last week or so have been really busy with the 4th of july and some family things.

i hope things are good and you and your family are all well.

jamie

Hi Jamie,

Glad to hear all is well with you and that you are comfortable with your decision.

My legal hassles and work are taking up most of my time these days. I will be happy when the legal issues get settled. Thank you for your good wishes in that area. I need them.

As you, my family is important to me. I always think of "family" as the people you consider closest to you and those persons do not necessarily have to be "blood" relatives. Some of my family is "blood" and some are not. The ones who are not are more "spiritual" family to my thinking.

Once all the "dust" settles, I am hoping to go and visit my family. As I said, just trying to keep up with work and other issues for the moment.

I did want to go back to someting you mentioned that was of lesser importance, but you mentioned it "bothered" you somewhat. It was that you look like your father. I, too, look EXACTLY like my father and it bothered me for the longest time. I disliked looking a pictures of myself too. My brother who died looked exactly like him as well. People thought my brother and I were twins. There was 5 years between us. We both dispised the fact that we looked like our father, but we "latched" onto looking like each other. Eventually, we got over it.

Don't allow this thing to prevent you from having pictures of yourself around. Your family loves you and they, like most human beings, want pictures of you for that reason. Don't allow your father to take that from you. He's already taken enough.

I hope all is going well for you and your family. Have you and your wife come to any conclusions about adding another?

With all kindness,
MCN

hi mcn,

sorry to hear you are still having legal troubles. that's such a pain, just draining and stressful. i hope it's over for you soon and you can just get on with your life and spend some time with your family.

i understand what you mean about "spiritual" family. i have a few people in my life who are like that. they mean as much to me as anyone i am related too.

i am trying to get over the "dislike" of pictures of myself but i don't know if i ever will. the last time i saw a picture of myself i ended up using a razor blade and cutting my face up. fortunately, it wasn't very deep and didn't scar very badly but it was enough to make me decide that it is just best not to have pictures of myself around. maybe some day i will be able to deal with it.

my wife and i have decided to wait about a year to try for another baby. if we do that then our little girl would be nearly 5 by the time it's born so she wouldn't be so dependant. we don't want her to feel as if she is being pushed out of the nest too soon. i don't know if we are doing the right thing or not, but it seems to be the right thing to us.

i still haven't heard from my mother, so i guess she isn't interested in contacting me. it hurts, but that's ok. it's not like it's really a huge issue, either.

it seems like lately my sister has turned the snob factor on full force. she never really liked my wife all that well but has been actually rude lately. it makes me really angry and understandably hurts my wife's feelings. i finally told her not to bother us until she is ready to treat my wife decently. i know this just stems from jealousy/fear on her part but i don't know why she can't see that i am perfectly capable of loving them both.

jamie

Hi Jamie,

I understand your hurt. However, for these type matters it is still "early. I must say I think you are handling it well.

Sorry to hear about the situation with your sister. Your sister sounds as though she still has some issues "with the past" and has not yet worked them through. I think that you have moved far past that and it appears that you are doing the "right thing" in consideration of your own immediate family. Women, as a group, are not very good at allowing others to live their lives without "interference". A little age and maturity sometimes helps.

You and your wife seemed to have struck a balance with regard to "expanding" your family. If it "feels" right for you both, then it probably is. Your reasoning and concerns are well thought out. You both sound like loving and caring parents. Very positive and desirable traits especially in this day and age.

You are so very right about the legal stuff. It is so very draining and stressful. It is all over money!! It is a "sort of" inheritance, (not thru immediate family) and I was content with it, however immediate family thought otherwise. So, I have been sucked into this and things have just barely gotten started and it's already a nightmare. Again, thank you for your well wishes.

I am very happy in my heart for you that you are getting along so well. You've come through such a emotional holocaust and all the echos I hear are strength, love, courage, quality character, and intelligence. Your family and friends are very fortunate to have you in their lives.

With kind regards,
MCN

MCN,

yeah, i understand about legal issues over money. i'd give it all up just to not have to deal with it sometimes. not really an option in my case, i suppose. i hope it's taken care of for you soon.

my sister has issues with issues, i think. not in the same way i do, and i have plenty of my own. she's such a control freak that she drives everyone nuts. i understand WHY and i can be that way to some degree myself, but she takes it to extremes. she also comes across as very conceited and stuck up, i am not sure how much of that is true and how much is just because she is very deeply scared of people and that tends to keep them away. *sigh* i wish i could help her more, but it's impossible to help someone who can't see that anything is wrong.

if it was up to just me we'd have 10 kids all at once! lol! not practical, or even possible, but i really love little ones. i'm never happier than when spending time with my daughter. we will probably stop at 2 children, but that has more to do with my age and knowing what we can really deal with than a lack of desire for a large family. i wonder if i am doing anything right for my kid sometimes. i know what NOT to do, but that is very different from knowing what TO do. it all seems to come so naturally to my wife. i just find myself following her lead a lot. i tend to be more permissive and give in more. i just find it hard to resist those big brown eyes. she's just such a good little kid. almost always happy, sweet, funny, unbearable cute....lol....i could go on about her all day. so if she wants extra ice cream or a trip to the park i can't seem to say no.

i guess that's all for now. try not to let all the legal stuff get to you. easier said than done, i know, but in the end it's not worth stressing over.

jamie