Hi to everyone. After reading many of the posts here, I consider myself one of the more fortunate ones!! Didn't marry the man and got out early on, or should I say I ceased to provide the "excitement" anylonger and scads of red flags started to appear. I've read "Without Conscience" and many articles trying to understand what happened and how I was duped. Is not an experience I want to repeat again. I am single and no spring chicken. This man/P, like others of his kind, lost interest in about 18 months time. From what I understand, this is about the usual amount of time a P can carry on a charade.

I'm not one to "hand over my heart" very easily and am not in any rush. And yes he was charming, intelligent, fun to be around, sexy. But little by little his "stories" left me wondering, absences left me wondering, his outward calm left me wondering. Fortunately for me, I kept my guard up. He seemed to be very well socialized.

After about a year of seeing each other, I discovered a phone number with a female name written on it. I wondered if he'd done that deliberately. Now, I am really on "red alert."

About 3 months after that, in a jumbled set of circumstances, we are at a social gathering and "other woman" is there. I pick up that there seems to be some interest there. I confront him with it and he denies it, of course. I asked him where he saw our relationship headed. His answer was not satisfactory, but I decide to give it a little more time.

Within 6 weeks time one Friday evening he tells me he's going to have "drinks with the guys." I don't believe him, but see it as an opportunity to catch him in his own lie. I told him I was going to be near his place early the following morning and would meet him at his home for coffee. Prior to knocking on his door, I touched the hood of his car and it was very warm. I surmised he had just arrived home in order to meet me at 7am.

When I entered his home, he had the coffee brewed. I sit with him and ask him how his night out with the guys went. He was very vague. I suggest we go for breakfast around the corner. We do. I wanted to be in a public place for protection, just in case.

Again, fortunately for me, I do two things that worked in my favor. One, he was not expecting a confrontation and therefore could not think ahead of time about a "proper" reaction and two, I asked a specific question to which his response was so odd and off the wall. This is ultimately which led me to believe he was indeed a psychopath. It took two weeks of "reliving" the experience, confusion and the whole experience that eventually led me to search the web and find information that led me to this final conclusion.

I deliberately wait until our food was placed on the table and then asked him what he did last night. He repeated his original story. I repeated my question again. Again he gave me the same. I repeated the question twice more before he realized he was caught. However, he came up with another lie about seeing some old girlfriend. I knew this was a lie, but figured this was the best I was going to get and then I asked the real cincher. I asked him how he FELT about our relationship. How did he really feel about me and him. Then he did something that will stay with me forever. His eyes glazed over and he seemed to be staring thru me, beyond me. It was almost trance-like. THEN, he turned and stared at the wall saying absolutely nothing. Wow, the biggest red flag went up then!! I was so glad I was in a public place!! I waited and waited. I was not going to put words in his mouth for him. The silence continued for over 5 minutes. The whole time he stared at the wall. Finally, I asked him, "can't you tell me how you feel, don't you know how you feel?" He turned and looked at me and with all seriousness said, "No, I can't." At the time I was dumbfounded. I left and never saw him again.

Emotionally it was painful. It was hard to believe I'd spent 18 months in a relationship that was going nowhere, but hindsight is 20/20. I told myself that the person I liked and had enjoyed was really non-existent. It was akin to having a nice dream and waking up only to discover you were dreaming. None of it is true.

In an attempt to understand all of this, I read Dr. Hare's book. For us "feeling" people it is so very difficult to accept that someone could have virtually no feelings at all. My best analogy to all this is that asking a P to emote on a mature level is like asking an armless person to do a handstand.

Thankfully, I've only suffered minor emotional bruises. There was no physical abuse or verbal abuse. Just some humiliation and feeling "used." I will say that dealing with psychopaths is emotionally stressful and draining. Somehow, they seem to suck energy from you. Interesting phenomena. Three days after leaving him, I physically felt better! And I am a relatively healthy person.

One lesson I took away from this, that I totally stumbled on thru my honesty and sincerity was asking a psychopath how he FELT and the question posed with no inkling that it would be asked and that the psychopath was not aware that "trouble" was looming for him.

That's my story. Thank you to everyone else for sharing theirs. I hope I can contribute here. Knowledge is power.

MoreCautiousNow

Hi MoreCautiousNow,

Welcome to the board. I read your story and could relate to it on so many levels. I don't have time to respond at length right now but have to say for starters that you must be very level headed and have great street smarts to have handled the situation in the analytical, deliberate way that you did. You're a smart cookie - thumbs up to you for getting out relatively early!

As pretty much everyone on this board will attest, these individuals are bad news. I dated one for many years and came to realize the eyes don't deceive (in situations like that). Not mine and not his.

Regards,
Sylvie

Thank you for you interest Sylvie. Yes, I am fairly analytical by nature and my age probably helps. But, a lot of how I conducted myself in the final moments was sheer luck and in being sincere and genuine.

I really empathize with some of the people here after my experience. I can see how they have been drawn in by psychopaths and had their hearts trampled upon. I could have been one of those people very easily as I was falling in love with this man. But in hindsight, "something" held me back and I paid attention to that "something." Through and from this experience, I truly believe there is something within humans on some "psychic" level that the inner conscious preceives that something is "wrong" with the psychopath. I mentioned the phenomena of feeling drained, like energy had been sucked out of me. I've come across that in my reading. In my case, although I kept ahold of a certain amount of caution in my dealings with the psychopath, what made me ignore the "warnings" was that I believed that the man just needed more nurture than the average person. Perhaps he had been hurt somewhere down the line, I hypothesized. Nothing could have been further from the truth.

Immediately after leaving the situation I felt very torn and confused. But I continually reminded myself that the person presented and the person that was were two different people. One did not exist and one did. The person I was interested in DID NOT exist. It is really mindboggling and confusing and requires a great deal of strength, stamina and reason to get thru it. I just count a lot of my experience to a lot of luck in "stumbling" onto the best course of action and information. Otherwise, I'd be writing a different story. Even Dr. Hare admits that even he can be deceived on occasion.

I am here because I want to understand and I see a lot of people helping each other and sorting out information that will eventually lead to answers. Somehow, we all hold a piece of the puzzle. As monsterous as the psychopath is, he is still a pathetic creature.

MCN

Hi MoreCautiousNow,

*Applause*

Thanks for your story. Fascinating and very impressive. I think the way you handled things is about as good as it gets. I particularly liked:

" I asked him how he FELT about our relationship."

That is the killer question for any P. Did you home in on that instinctively or had you by that point some inkling that he might be psychopathic, and understand what that meant?

The Ps honest reaction to your question I find fascinating.

From what Ive been told and have read when a P is asked that sort of question there are a number of lies /diversions which are normally used in reply.

a) The simplistic platitude, e.g. "You know I love you" - this has the required effect on many people ( male or female!) It turns the critical faculty to mush. The situation dissolves into warm emotional goo...which is often then re-enforced with sex... win for the p.

b) diversion and anger. If you try to push deeper and more critically beyond whatever simplistic platitudes the P initially comes out with, the likely response is diversion and/or anger. Usually with an attempt to spin things round e.g. "It's ( ie, you are) making me really upset that you cant just accept what I say. Isnt that enough? Dont you believe me when I say I love you".. yadda yadda yadda. If that doesnt work and you persist to push for an examination of 'feelings' from the P the likely outcome is a temper tantrum and slammed doors...

c) a concrete response to an emotional question, which effectively ducks the question while appearing to answer it

If asked "How do you FEEL about our relationship" a p might reply "I feel we should spend more time together"

Note that this reply is NOT an introspective examination of feelings, but a concrete suggestion for future action. It has NO emotional content. Although the word 'feel' has been used in reply, the question has NOT been answered. No expression or exploration of 'feeling' has been offered.

Thanks for sharing your story. For your information I have never been in a relationship with a psychopath. A friend has been married to one for 16 years and is currently in the process of extricating herself from that situation, emotionally and financially. Thats why I've been interested in the subject since last summer.

Hi JustAMan,

I had NO inkling I was dealing with a P. Like I said, it was all sheer luck and the set of circumstances.

The P I was involved with was very socialized and intelligent. Now, I also suspect that somewhere along the line, his family got him "help" or therapy. I figure that is how he became so socialized.

I really think his reaction had a lot to do with the element of surprise for him. Somehow, he was totally unaware. In hindsight, the other two times I confronted him, he did have some awareness that something was amiss and was able to "rehearse" himself. The final time, I think I just got lucky and caught him totally unaware. If P's mirror their "victims," then I was "smart" to not show any emotion he could "latch" onto that particular time. I deliberately maintained a certain calm before confronting him. Plus the fact that I repeated the same question to him over and over. I didn't get an honest answer, but an answer that changed from the original answer.

I wanted to make a point to him that I didn't believe him and that he was lying and I knew it. I really used the answer as a springboard to the real question at hand which for me was about where the relationship was headed. Again, all this was sheer luck on my part. No education on dealing with a p. (Earlier, I posted something on "the mask of the Psychopath" you may want to read.) Looking back, his whole expression, the trance like stare, the admission of not being able to express his feelings was as if I had reached up and torn away the mask. For those few moments he was exposed and vulnerable. Since I had done it unwittingly, I was just as much surprised by the bizzare reaction of no reaction that I got from him. I was expecting SOMETHING, even if it was lame. I believed I was taking a mature and rational step to getting the relationship resolved one way or the other. I thought I was giving him the opportunity to at least say something to the effect of, "gee, I like you as a person, but I just don't feel we are right for each other," or something to that effect.

After I educated myself on the subject and got thru the hurt feelings, I became intrigued by the subject. Therefore, I understand your interest. The biggest hurdle in understanding this is understanding that P's virtually have no emotions. I think I'd rather have no arms!

MCN

P.S. I really wish I had a videotape of the whole 18 months with this p. I think it would be insightful.

MCN,

I think we're all reluctant, involuntary members of this "club". Yes, I too felt something was off, but couldn't quite put my finger on it for a long time. I really think the nurturant part is what causes some people to stay. Certainly the P I went out with had his "unhappy childhood" story at the ready every time he needed to manipulate.

I remember once getting a call at work. It was a female asking to speak to the P I was seeing. I was confused as to why she called my workplace and she seemed confused as to who I was. Just like you suspected the phone number thing was deliberate, I came to feel the same way too. I asked him and he was evasive while laughing quite gleefully at the same time. Like most of them, I think he enjoyed the deception and felt very clever and superior engineering such a setup. In trying to extract something positive from that experience, I tell myself that sometimes you have to go through something abnormal to appreciate normal. Obviously, I'm sure we'd rather not go through the school of hard knocks to get to that realization.

I agree they are pathetic creatures at their core and at the same time so adept at being destructive. They don't operate in a vacuum though, there are so many people (professionals, relatives, etc.) who are complicit in allowing them to stay masked. In some ways, I feel I am now part of that group of bystanders since I'm sure he has victimized other women since. You're right it's draining dealing with them and I'm sure some of that is deliberate because it weakens one's ability and resolve to get away and makes us more vulnerable.

I'm curious, did the guy you date have issues with his mother? It just seems like so many of them do.

Sylvie

Hi Sylvie,

Yes, my P did seem to have issues with his mother. She lived 1400 miles away and came to visit once a year. He visited her and other family members about twice a year. He called his mother often. His father had died when he was about 20. He never said he had a rough childhood, but the father was a "stay at home" dad. (That was not a popular thing in the 1950s.) I was only around him with his mother a couple of times. She definately wore the pants so to speak, however, I sort of got the feeling that he was somewhat fearful in her presence. Nothing I can really put my finger on.

I quite agree with you with regard to the deceptive manuvering they do to set you up for some humiliating experience. This happened several times. They do seem to get some thrill out of it. In my situation, the "other woman" was pretty brazen and rather haughty. I think that this time he chose a boarderline narcissist. So, I don't feel but so sorry for her. But I'd sure like to be a fly on the wall to observe how that one goes down. I figure she'll just be a bit more of a challenge and provide a bigger thrill in the end. In my P's case, I think since he is more socialized and very intelligent, he tends to choose stronger people, otherwise it would be like taking candy from a baby for him.

Yes, you are absolutely correct that they do not operate in a vacumn. Right now, I think the best we can do is to keep other people aware and educated about these people as best we can. That is a limited amout of people, but it's better than nothing. I've educated family and friends about psychopaths. And yeah, I've wondered about his family! I often thought, "how can they stand by and watch him set up another victim?" That pissed me off some.

I did not have a pleasant childhood, so long ago I decided that I was not going to let that stand in my way and bring me down futher. I will share with you how I viewed it and the "hard knocks" I've taken. In every positive there is a negative and so the reverse is true. Learn from the negative, then toss it. Take the positive and grow with it. My miserable childhood made me the strong person I am today. It taught me how strong I am and how capable I am. When things get tough, I remember that I've been thru worse and I still made it thru. Lots of other tough things are a piece of cake compared to what I've endured. As for my experience with the psychopath, first I was really angry and hurt. By educating myself on the subject, I discovered I'm just one of many. Comparatively, I got off relatively easy!! In order to forget the P (emotionally), I kept reminding myself (everyday for about 6 months) that the person I cared for did not exist. If you were dreaming a wonderful dream and woke, only to discover it was a dream, you're not going to go around depressed for weeks because your dream wasn't real!! I pep talk myself. Try it, it works. Every one of us has something to offer. Here, we're educating each other, letting each other know "we've been there" and we're still here! Great support. And the forum is here whenever you feel you need it.

And thank you for sharing your story and thoughts with me.

Did you ever get to meet your P's mother??

MCN

Hello MoreCautiousNow, thanks for joining the forum. I am very glad that you were able to see the "red flags". It must have been a horrible situation to sit through that breakfast. You bet you can thank your lucky stars for not marrying this man. It is always interesting when we follow our instincts, it sounds like you were very wise to have your meeting in a public place. I am sure it took him by surprise not to have any idea where the conversation would go.

Did he have a job or any source of steady income?

You are very correct that knowledge is power, for every person that shares their story there are many who are only able to read. It is hard to get people who don't have experience to truly understand what and why these people (Psychopaths) can be the way they are. We all want to see the best in people, but in a relationship with a P there isn't really a "best" side.

Di

Hi Di!

Thanks for the encouragement and welcome. Yes, the P was gainfully employed. According to him, he was married once, for 10 years. Not sure as to whether or not to believe that, but he did have a son, who was 18 at the time.

Actually, the son was one of the reasons I chose to leave his home and go to a public place. I did not want the poor kid to be exposed if things got ugly and at the same time thought a public place would offer protection and keep us both from getting "hot-headed" over the situation. Hindsight being what it is, all those things kept me calm, and this turned out to be the "right" thing to do. My logic of not letting on about confronting him, was more about getting an honest answer from him. I had no idea I was dealing with a P at the time. I just didn't want to give him the opportunity of time to conjure up some new lie to cover an old one. I only ordered coffee and orange juice for breakfast. I let him order food. Outside I had a calm exterior, but inside I was a bundle of nerves. I couldn't have eaten if I wanted to.

Even the people trained to deal with P's have a difficult time of it, so I figure it will be more so for us who have no training. Unfortunately, our "training" is our first hand experience. I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but I don't believe I'm dimwitted either, but really getting your arms around what goes on with a psychopath IS MINDBOGGLING!!

I kept getting stuck on "how could someone NOT have feelings?" I now have a better understanding of that. For us "feeling" people, psychopaths are DANGEROUS people.

A question that has provoked my curiosity revolves around music and dance. Enjoyment of these involve "feelings" and "emotions." I wonder how many p's have no rhythm and cannot dance and how many p's choose to listen to music (key word: "choose"). I suspect not many. My P avoided dancing, period. Claimed he could not (hmmm, small wonder now) and HE never seemed to choose music on a radio station if it was his choice. It was always "talk" radio. Any takers out there on this one??

MCN

Hi

I think you may have mentioned something very relevant about music. My partner has a teenager with RAD/Fledgling Psychopath and he has absolutely no interest in music although he doea occasionally ask for a CD for birthdays but he never actually listens to them and certainly never listens to the radio.

This is so unlike any other teenager I have evr known. The only tapes he listens to are book and story tapes.

I think he only gets the CDs to impress his school colleagues as a sort of conversational currency.
The same also applies to his choice of reading materials-they are all fantasy books or fantasy history and nothing about real people or relationships not even the typical British childrens classics.

I feel it's very important that we share these observations however trivial they may seem as it's like another piece of the jig-saw puzzle.

Well observed-you gave me food for thought.

Jan