Hi to everyone. After reading many of the posts here, I consider myself one of the more fortunate ones!! Didn't marry the man and got out early on, or should I say I ceased to provide the "excitement" anylonger and scads of red flags started to appear. I've read "Without Conscience" and many articles trying to understand what happened and how I was duped. Is not an experience I want to repeat again. I am single and no spring chicken. This man/P, like others of his kind, lost interest in about 18 months time. From what I understand, this is about the usual amount of time a P can carry on a charade.

I'm not one to "hand over my heart" very easily and am not in any rush. And yes he was charming, intelligent, fun to be around, sexy. But little by little his "stories" left me wondering, absences left me wondering, his outward calm left me wondering. Fortunately for me, I kept my guard up. He seemed to be very well socialized.

After about a year of seeing each other, I discovered a phone number with a female name written on it. I wondered if he'd done that deliberately. Now, I am really on "red alert."

About 3 months after that, in a jumbled set of circumstances, we are at a social gathering and "other woman" is there. I pick up that there seems to be some interest there. I confront him with it and he denies it, of course. I asked him where he saw our relationship headed. His answer was not satisfactory, but I decide to give it a little more time.

Within 6 weeks time one Friday evening he tells me he's going to have "drinks with the guys." I don't believe him, but see it as an opportunity to catch him in his own lie. I told him I was going to be near his place early the following morning and would meet him at his home for coffee. Prior to knocking on his door, I touched the hood of his car and it was very warm. I surmised he had just arrived home in order to meet me at 7am.

When I entered his home, he had the coffee brewed. I sit with him and ask him how his night out with the guys went. He was very vague. I suggest we go for breakfast around the corner. We do. I wanted to be in a public place for protection, just in case.

Again, fortunately for me, I do two things that worked in my favor. One, he was not expecting a confrontation and therefore could not think ahead of time about a "proper" reaction and two, I asked a specific question to which his response was so odd and off the wall. This is ultimately which led me to believe he was indeed a psychopath. It took two weeks of "reliving" the experience, confusion and the whole experience that eventually led me to search the web and find information that led me to this final conclusion.

I deliberately wait until our food was placed on the table and then asked him what he did last night. He repeated his original story. I repeated my question again. Again he gave me the same. I repeated the question twice more before he realized he was caught. However, he came up with another lie about seeing some old girlfriend. I knew this was a lie, but figured this was the best I was going to get and then I asked the real cincher. I asked him how he FELT about our relationship. How did he really feel about me and him. Then he did something that will stay with me forever. His eyes glazed over and he seemed to be staring thru me, beyond me. It was almost trance-like. THEN, he turned and stared at the wall saying absolutely nothing. Wow, the biggest red flag went up then!! I was so glad I was in a public place!! I waited and waited. I was not going to put words in his mouth for him. The silence continued for over 5 minutes. The whole time he stared at the wall. Finally, I asked him, "can't you tell me how you feel, don't you know how you feel?" He turned and looked at me and with all seriousness said, "No, I can't." At the time I was dumbfounded. I left and never saw him again.

Emotionally it was painful. It was hard to believe I'd spent 18 months in a relationship that was going nowhere, but hindsight is 20/20. I told myself that the person I liked and had enjoyed was really non-existent. It was akin to having a nice dream and waking up only to discover you were dreaming. None of it is true.

In an attempt to understand all of this, I read Dr. Hare's book. For us "feeling" people it is so very difficult to accept that someone could have virtually no feelings at all. My best analogy to all this is that asking a P to emote on a mature level is like asking an armless person to do a handstand.

Thankfully, I've only suffered minor emotional bruises. There was no physical abuse or verbal abuse. Just some humiliation and feeling "used." I will say that dealing with psychopaths is emotionally stressful and draining. Somehow, they seem to suck energy from you. Interesting phenomena. Three days after leaving him, I physically felt better! And I am a relatively healthy person.

One lesson I took away from this, that I totally stumbled on thru my honesty and sincerity was asking a psychopath how he FELT and the question posed with no inkling that it would be asked and that the psychopath was not aware that "trouble" was looming for him.

That's my story. Thank you to everyone else for sharing theirs. I hope I can contribute here. Knowledge is power.

MoreCautiousNow

Hi MoreCautiousNow,

Welcome to the board. I read your story and could relate to it on so many levels. I don't have time to respond at length right now but have to say for starters that you must be very level headed and have great street smarts to have handled the situation in the analytical, deliberate way that you did. You're a smart cookie - thumbs up to you for getting out relatively early!

As pretty much everyone on this board will attest, these individuals are bad news. I dated one for many years and came to realize the eyes don't deceive (in situations like that). Not mine and not his.

Regards,
Sylvie

Thank you for you interest Sylvie. Yes, I am fairly analytical by nature and my age probably helps. But, a lot of how I conducted myself in the final moments was sheer luck and in being sincere and genuine.

I really empathize with some of the people here after my experience. I can see how they have been drawn in by psychopaths and had their hearts trampled upon. I could have been one of those people very easily as I was falling in love with this man. But in hindsight, "something" held me back and I paid attention to that "something." Through and from this experience, I truly believe there is something within humans on some "psychic" level that the inner conscious preceives that something is "wrong" with the psychopath. I mentioned the phenomena of feeling drained, like energy had been sucked out of me. I've come across that in my reading. In my case, although I kept ahold of a certain amount of caution in my dealings with the psychopath, what made me ignore the "warnings" was that I believed that the man just needed more nurture than the average person. Perhaps he had been hurt somewhere down the line, I hypothesized. Nothing could have been further from the truth.

Immediately after leaving the situation I felt very torn and confused. But I continually reminded myself that the person presented and the person that was were two different people. One did not exist and one did. The person I was interested in DID NOT exist. It is really mindboggling and confusing and requires a great deal of strength, stamina and reason to get thru it. I just count a lot of my experience to a lot of luck in "stumbling" onto the best course of action and information. Otherwise, I'd be writing a different story. Even Dr. Hare admits that even he can be deceived on occasion.

I am here because I want to understand and I see a lot of people helping each other and sorting out information that will eventually lead to answers. Somehow, we all hold a piece of the puzzle. As monsterous as the psychopath is, he is still a pathetic creature.

MCN

Hi MoreCautiousNow,

*Applause*

Thanks for your story. Fascinating and very impressive. I think the way you handled things is about as good as it gets. I particularly liked:

" I asked him how he FELT about our relationship."

That is the killer question for any P. Did you home in on that instinctively or had you by that point some inkling that he might be psychopathic, and understand what that meant?

The Ps honest reaction to your question I find fascinating.

From what Ive been told and have read when a P is asked that sort of question there are a number of lies /diversions which are normally used in reply.

a) The simplistic platitude, e.g. "You know I love you" - this has the required effect on many people ( male or female!) It turns the critical faculty to mush. The situation dissolves into warm emotional goo...which is often then re-enforced with sex... win for the p.

b) diversion and anger. If you try to push deeper and more critically beyond whatever simplistic platitudes the P initially comes out with, the likely response is diversion and/or anger. Usually with an attempt to spin things round e.g. "It's ( ie, you are) making me really upset that you cant just accept what I say. Isnt that enough? Dont you believe me when I say I love you".. yadda yadda yadda. If that doesnt work and you persist to push for an examination of 'feelings' from the P the likely outcome is a temper tantrum and slammed doors...

c) a concrete response to an emotional question, which effectively ducks the question while appearing to answer it

If asked "How do you FEEL about our relationship" a p might reply "I feel we should spend more time together"

Note that this reply is NOT an introspective examination of feelings, but a concrete suggestion for future action. It has NO emotional content. Although the word 'feel' has been used in reply, the question has NOT been answered. No expression or exploration of 'feeling' has been offered.

Thanks for sharing your story. For your information I have never been in a relationship with a psychopath. A friend has been married to one for 16 years and is currently in the process of extricating herself from that situation, emotionally and financially. Thats why I've been interested in the subject since last summer.

Hi JustAMan,

I had NO inkling I was dealing with a P. Like I said, it was all sheer luck and the set of circumstances.

The P I was involved with was very socialized and intelligent. Now, I also suspect that somewhere along the line, his family got him "help" or therapy. I figure that is how he became so socialized.

I really think his reaction had a lot to do with the element of surprise for him. Somehow, he was totally unaware. In hindsight, the other two times I confronted him, he did have some awareness that something was amiss and was able to "rehearse" himself. The final time, I think I just got lucky and caught him totally unaware. If P's mirror their "victims," then I was "smart" to not show any emotion he could "latch" onto that particular time. I deliberately maintained a certain calm before confronting him. Plus the fact that I repeated the same question to him over and over. I didn't get an honest answer, but an answer that changed from the original answer.

I wanted to make a point to him that I didn't believe him and that he was lying and I knew it. I really used the answer as a springboard to the real question at hand which for me was about where the relationship was headed. Again, all this was sheer luck on my part. No education on dealing with a p. (Earlier, I posted something on "the mask of the Psychopath" you may want to read.) Looking back, his whole expression, the trance like stare, the admission of not being able to express his feelings was as if I had reached up and torn away the mask. For those few moments he was exposed and vulnerable. Since I had done it unwittingly, I was just as much surprised by the bizzare reaction of no reaction that I got from him. I was expecting SOMETHING, even if it was lame. I believed I was taking a mature and rational step to getting the relationship resolved one way or the other. I thought I was giving him the opportunity to at least say something to the effect of, "gee, I like you as a person, but I just don't feel we are right for each other," or something to that effect.

After I educated myself on the subject and got thru the hurt feelings, I became intrigued by the subject. Therefore, I understand your interest. The biggest hurdle in understanding this is understanding that P's virtually have no emotions. I think I'd rather have no arms!

MCN

P.S. I really wish I had a videotape of the whole 18 months with this p. I think it would be insightful.

MCN,

I think we're all reluctant, involuntary members of this "club". Yes, I too felt something was off, but couldn't quite put my finger on it for a long time. I really think the nurturant part is what causes some people to stay. Certainly the P I went out with had his "unhappy childhood" story at the ready every time he needed to manipulate.

I remember once getting a call at work. It was a female asking to speak to the P I was seeing. I was confused as to why she called my workplace and she seemed confused as to who I was. Just like you suspected the phone number thing was deliberate, I came to feel the same way too. I asked him and he was evasive while laughing quite gleefully at the same time. Like most of them, I think he enjoyed the deception and felt very clever and superior engineering such a setup. In trying to extract something positive from that experience, I tell myself that sometimes you have to go through something abnormal to appreciate normal. Obviously, I'm sure we'd rather not go through the school of hard knocks to get to that realization.

I agree they are pathetic creatures at their core and at the same time so adept at being destructive. They don't operate in a vacuum though, there are so many people (professionals, relatives, etc.) who are complicit in allowing them to stay masked. In some ways, I feel I am now part of that group of bystanders since I'm sure he has victimized other women since. You're right it's draining dealing with them and I'm sure some of that is deliberate because it weakens one's ability and resolve to get away and makes us more vulnerable.

I'm curious, did the guy you date have issues with his mother? It just seems like so many of them do.

Sylvie

Hi Sylvie,

Yes, my P did seem to have issues with his mother. She lived 1400 miles away and came to visit once a year. He visited her and other family members about twice a year. He called his mother often. His father had died when he was about 20. He never said he had a rough childhood, but the father was a "stay at home" dad. (That was not a popular thing in the 1950s.) I was only around him with his mother a couple of times. She definately wore the pants so to speak, however, I sort of got the feeling that he was somewhat fearful in her presence. Nothing I can really put my finger on.

I quite agree with you with regard to the deceptive manuvering they do to set you up for some humiliating experience. This happened several times. They do seem to get some thrill out of it. In my situation, the "other woman" was pretty brazen and rather haughty. I think that this time he chose a boarderline narcissist. So, I don't feel but so sorry for her. But I'd sure like to be a fly on the wall to observe how that one goes down. I figure she'll just be a bit more of a challenge and provide a bigger thrill in the end. In my P's case, I think since he is more socialized and very intelligent, he tends to choose stronger people, otherwise it would be like taking candy from a baby for him.

Yes, you are absolutely correct that they do not operate in a vacumn. Right now, I think the best we can do is to keep other people aware and educated about these people as best we can. That is a limited amout of people, but it's better than nothing. I've educated family and friends about psychopaths. And yeah, I've wondered about his family! I often thought, "how can they stand by and watch him set up another victim?" That pissed me off some.

I did not have a pleasant childhood, so long ago I decided that I was not going to let that stand in my way and bring me down futher. I will share with you how I viewed it and the "hard knocks" I've taken. In every positive there is a negative and so the reverse is true. Learn from the negative, then toss it. Take the positive and grow with it. My miserable childhood made me the strong person I am today. It taught me how strong I am and how capable I am. When things get tough, I remember that I've been thru worse and I still made it thru. Lots of other tough things are a piece of cake compared to what I've endured. As for my experience with the psychopath, first I was really angry and hurt. By educating myself on the subject, I discovered I'm just one of many. Comparatively, I got off relatively easy!! In order to forget the P (emotionally), I kept reminding myself (everyday for about 6 months) that the person I cared for did not exist. If you were dreaming a wonderful dream and woke, only to discover it was a dream, you're not going to go around depressed for weeks because your dream wasn't real!! I pep talk myself. Try it, it works. Every one of us has something to offer. Here, we're educating each other, letting each other know "we've been there" and we're still here! Great support. And the forum is here whenever you feel you need it.

And thank you for sharing your story and thoughts with me.

Did you ever get to meet your P's mother??

MCN

Hello MoreCautiousNow, thanks for joining the forum. I am very glad that you were able to see the "red flags". It must have been a horrible situation to sit through that breakfast. You bet you can thank your lucky stars for not marrying this man. It is always interesting when we follow our instincts, it sounds like you were very wise to have your meeting in a public place. I am sure it took him by surprise not to have any idea where the conversation would go.

Did he have a job or any source of steady income?

You are very correct that knowledge is power, for every person that shares their story there are many who are only able to read. It is hard to get people who don't have experience to truly understand what and why these people (Psychopaths) can be the way they are. We all want to see the best in people, but in a relationship with a P there isn't really a "best" side.

Di

Hi Di!

Thanks for the encouragement and welcome. Yes, the P was gainfully employed. According to him, he was married once, for 10 years. Not sure as to whether or not to believe that, but he did have a son, who was 18 at the time.

Actually, the son was one of the reasons I chose to leave his home and go to a public place. I did not want the poor kid to be exposed if things got ugly and at the same time thought a public place would offer protection and keep us both from getting "hot-headed" over the situation. Hindsight being what it is, all those things kept me calm, and this turned out to be the "right" thing to do. My logic of not letting on about confronting him, was more about getting an honest answer from him. I had no idea I was dealing with a P at the time. I just didn't want to give him the opportunity of time to conjure up some new lie to cover an old one. I only ordered coffee and orange juice for breakfast. I let him order food. Outside I had a calm exterior, but inside I was a bundle of nerves. I couldn't have eaten if I wanted to.

Even the people trained to deal with P's have a difficult time of it, so I figure it will be more so for us who have no training. Unfortunately, our "training" is our first hand experience. I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but I don't believe I'm dimwitted either, but really getting your arms around what goes on with a psychopath IS MINDBOGGLING!!

I kept getting stuck on "how could someone NOT have feelings?" I now have a better understanding of that. For us "feeling" people, psychopaths are DANGEROUS people.

A question that has provoked my curiosity revolves around music and dance. Enjoyment of these involve "feelings" and "emotions." I wonder how many p's have no rhythm and cannot dance and how many p's choose to listen to music (key word: "choose"). I suspect not many. My P avoided dancing, period. Claimed he could not (hmmm, small wonder now) and HE never seemed to choose music on a radio station if it was his choice. It was always "talk" radio. Any takers out there on this one??

MCN

Hi

I think you may have mentioned something very relevant about music. My partner has a teenager with RAD/Fledgling Psychopath and he has absolutely no interest in music although he doea occasionally ask for a CD for birthdays but he never actually listens to them and certainly never listens to the radio.

This is so unlike any other teenager I have evr known. The only tapes he listens to are book and story tapes.

I think he only gets the CDs to impress his school colleagues as a sort of conversational currency.
The same also applies to his choice of reading materials-they are all fantasy books or fantasy history and nothing about real people or relationships not even the typical British childrens classics.

I feel it's very important that we share these observations however trivial they may seem as it's like another piece of the jig-saw puzzle.

Well observed-you gave me food for thought.

Jan

Hi MCN,

You asked if I ever got to meet the Ps mother? Yes, lots of times and it left no ambiguity as to why P was a P. It was patently obvious there were issues in that gene pool!

She was without a doubt, one of the most narcissistic individuals I've every come across. In fact, I remember when I was first supposed to go his place to meet her (he lived at home), they kept changing the dates because I guess she had to look just so. I remember thinking I would probably land an audience with the Queen more easily. He also said very early on that she didn't like any of his girlfriends (RED FLAG) and that she was very cold and detached toward him and one his siblings (MAJOR RED FLAG). In fact, she apparently was very emotionally abusive and there was some physical abuse as well. So certainly, I was sympathetic about that because my parents were extremely affectionate and I thought it must have been terrible to have such a childhood.

However I guess she rediscovered her motherly love when she used to call my place and ask to speak to "her son" very rudely and imperiously. Ugh. I should have put her son on a platter and presented him back to her. Well I did try breaking up after 6 months but by then the P was stuck to my hip like a barnacle.

I'll have to continue the description of his mother some other time. It might be interesting to see if others can draw parallels.

Regards,
Sylvie

P.S. Have you seen the movie "Hush" with Jessica Lange (I think) as the mother-in-law and Gwyneth Paltrow as the DIL? That depicts his mother very well. It's a good movie.

Hi Sylvie,

I like that, "stuck to my hip like a barnacle." Made me laugh. Yeah, I'd like to hear more about the MIL. My P didn't say very much negative about his parents, but what did come across was that his mother "wore the pants". The 3 times that I was around her (at his home), the P, the mother both seemed like they were on "best behavior". Like a truce was between them. The P did seem a little nervous around her. I'm only guessing, but I think mummsie knew her little boy had problems and I think that there's a good possibility that help/therapy was sought for him early on. Probably how he got so socialized. It also seemed like mummsie kept close tabs on him, like just making sure he didn't get too out of line.

Haven't seen the movie you mentioned but sounds interesting. Until landing here at this site, I didn't realize so many P's seem to have issues with their mothers. Way back in my early 30's I got sick of hearing mothers being blamed for all their children's problems all the time so I sorta take/took all that with a grain of salt. However, maybe there'something going on for real. I would be interested in hearing more about the mother issues. I never saw the P's mom very much or for very long. She was ok with me. Only feedback I ever got there was from the P and who knows whether it was true or not. According to him, all his mother said about me was that I seemed to be very "comfortable in my own skin." Not a compliment, but not a put down either. ?? Will await your description of your P's mother.

Regards,
MCN

HiHi

I do agree with you about the mother issues. I think this topic is relevant to the RAD/Fledgling Psychopath debate.

RAD (Reactive Attachment Disorder) seems to occur because children are neglected or abused by the mother/primary caregiver in the first years of life and never form a bond with her. (Child rejects mother)
BUT sometimes appears to happen because the mother doesn't bond with the child maybe because of instinct that the child is damaged as happens in nature, so she rejects the offspring. (Mother rejects child)

That the child has unresolved mother issues for the rest of their lives and is looking for retribution or whatever- is a question to pose.

RAD is more prevalent with fostered or adopted children than bio children and their brains develop in a different way to other children with healthy attachments. (I will find the info on this if anyone is interested) It is said that intensive therapy early on can have a beneficial effect but no-one I have spoken to will specify there is a “cure”.

It seems that any woman who comes into their lives is at risk of "attack".
Do these children then go on to be the psychopaths of the future?

I would be particularly interested in the opinions of UK members as we do not diagnose children here.

Jan

Hi MCN,

Think I'll have to write about the MIL in a couple of sequels. Yes, I too sensed a strange vibe between MIL and P-son. P didn't like her to be around us. Her hubby too was definitely whipped - in fact most of the family was treated like the hired help - as if their sole purpose on earth was to do her bidding. If you read about some of the Ps who are serial killers, many of them seem to have domineering mothers. Think the common denominator is a deep seated hatred of women - gives me goosebumps to think about it.

Same thing about the therapy in this case too - suspect they all went in different combos. They blamed him and his sibling for being bad kids and the kids blamed the parents for making them that way.

One of the first times I went to their place, I was walking upstairs and looked up to see Ps parents on the landing. They had just come home from a dressup party and P's mother was in a French maid outfit, fishnet stockings, spiked heels and all. A classy lady she was not.

P basically made it sound like she behaved like a harpy towards them - if one thing was out of place in their rooms she would swoop in, scream and throw stuff around and make them clean up. Same thing at the dinner table. If their behaviour wasn't up to snuff, she would hurl a knife or fork at them. This is actually some of the mild stuff IMO. What I thought was unforgivable was that she apparently used to drum it into her daughter that she was ugly.

I guess she got pregnant before marriage and at that time and in a community like ours that would be considered a major scandal. So it sounds like she pretty much took her frustrations out on them, telling them they were mistakes, should be dead etc. In fact, as I write this it's easy for me to remember how I got roped in. That's tough stuff and I really felt for him. Still do actually when I think about this but as a P he can certainly take care of himself now.

I came to believe I was trying to fill a bottomless pit - it was an exercise in futility. There was no undoing the damage that had been done to his psyche - at least not in that case. Not saying that holds true in every abusive situation. God forbid if that were the case! I also decided I didn't want to spend the rest of my life paying for his mother's sins (and the father was apparently abusive too).I accorded his parents respect, but definitely can't say I felt any towards them.

With all the posturing and puffery that goes on, I think being described as "comfortable in one's own skin" would seem like a compliment. My two cents.

Regards,

Sylvie

P.S. You don't have to read the "sequel" but now I'm on a roll and I think I'm going to have to write it. May be therapeutic.

Hi Jan,

I definitely believe the guy I dated started out with an attachment disorder and then grew up to be a psychopath. He said very early on that he and his sister were rejected by their mother. I can't think offhand if there's any documented scientific basis for this, but I'd be inclined to believe that babies can sense a mother's feelings towards them even while in the womb. If certain feelings cause particular hormones/chemicals to be released, it seems to me that perhaps the attachment/ rejection issues start even then.

Whether it's the mother that first rejects the child or the other way around sounds like a real chicken and egg situation. It's a fascinating topic and disturbing at the same time.

About RAD in adopted kids, I am reminded of the problem that many American couples had with children that were adopted from Romanian orphanages. It's clear that in those cases the abuse and neglect had a severe and maladaptive effect on many of those kids. It was striking that what should have been a joyful undertaking fast became a nightmare. I give a lot of credit to those couples who persisted through the disruption in their families and lives to seek solutions and make the arrangements work out. I remember seeing documentaries about it and about the holding therapy that some psychologists advocate.

"It seems that any woman who comes into their lives is at risk of "attack"."

I firmly believe that.

Regards,
Sylvie

Hi Sylvie.

Thank you so much for sharing your insight/story of the P's mother. I don't have as long a lived experience with the P I was involved with and very little contact with the mother. I only know what the P told me (and who knows how much of that was true) and my brief encounters with her.

Your insight got me to thinking that the mother's comment about me being "comfortable in my own skin" may have alluded to the psychopath that I most likely would not be a malleable candidate for the P and succumb to his deceit. As I recall, when the P told me what his mother said the got that really strange, glazed over, in some other place look. I've wondered about that. The mother may have had her own problems, but I was not around her long enough to glean much knowledge on her except for what I intuited. But I did have a sense that she (and possibly the mother's brother who I was around on 2 occasions) kept "tabs" on the P and what he was up to. Within five months of my "introduction" to them (family), things were over. I'm not saying that the "family" did this in a malicious way, but in a way that would stave off "trouble." In some way, it seems like they did what they could without "interfering" in the P's life so much that the P would "evade" them. Interesting to ponder.

Your input will keep me alerted for the future. Thank you for educating me!! I enjoy reading your posts. You sound like an intelligent and strong person and I am learning from you and many others here. I will look forward to reading more of your posts.

Best regards.
MCN

You are one smart cookie. I have seen that glazed look too. WOW. I so thought I was alone and here you all are, sharing. I feel like i've won the lottery somehow. I thought I was damaged with my illness, having no energy for a realtionship but it isnt ME. He's an energy vampire. Thank you again for sharing.

Hi Adriane,

Welcome aboard!! You will get an education here. You may also want to read the book, "Without Conscience", by Dr. Hare. It will give you some of the answers you are seeking. When I was first in your "shoes" I found this book to be most helpful of all. In a few days you should feel "new energy," physical that is. Emotionally it will take a bit more time. I (we) know you are busy trying to understand right now. It will take time. But keep reading here. You will learn alot and it is very theraputic as well. A big hug to you!! AND hang in there!
MCN

Hi MCN,

You're welcome. I too wondered whether what P told me about his mother was true until I had opportunities to observe her, including around other kids. Also, she once said something about not having been as good a mother as possible (now there's an understatement) - I got the distinct impression she was trying to fish and find out what I had been told and maybe do some PR at the same time. It backfired in that it at least confirmed that there had been issues with the way she treated her kids. Actually another character she totally reminded me of was "Cruella De Vil" from 101 Dalmations. I completely believed that if she could get her hands on enough little, furry creatures, she would make a coat of them . P's relatives on his father's side did seem well adjusted and I liked them. They predicted rightly that he would drive me away with his neediness. Isn't that weird - a clingy man with an attachment disorder?! Hmmmm....

Thanks for the compliment - I must sound stronger in my posts than I've been feeling lately!

Regards,
Sylvie

Hey Sylvie,

I think we all get stronger day by day, but we can have our "down" days. Hope for you it's short. I think most of the people here are stronger than they may know. Weak people go bury their head in the sand.

I was reading one of your posts and cannot seem to find it again, but in it you mentioned you suspected a P of being on the "down low". I don't know how many of the readers/posters here understand that term, but I do.

P's don't seem to have too many qualms with regard to that. At least from my observations. For them, they will take what they can get, especially if they are promiscuous. However, there are plenty of straight men who would not be considered bisexual who on occasion will have sex with another man and they are not P's. With a P I think it's more of just what's available and they don't seem to have a preference either. For them sex is sex.

I found it interesting that you mentioned it as I suspected the same possibility with the P I was seeing at one time.

P's also seem more into "deviant" sexual practices as well. I really don't like putting labels on topics such as this, however I am just trying to articulate in a comprehensible way. I do not want to offend anyone as I am actually open-minded on this topic and on a more personal level in this arena, I don't have any issues with what two consenting adults do or don't do. But, I do think women especially should be aware of it and I was glad you mentioned it.

Hang in there.
MCN

Hare's book is great. Also try and find "The Psychopath's Bible", but DON'T support the author by buying it! Rather, get it from a library or a used book store. To me it is a declaration of war against the good people in the world. You'll really get a sense of the grandiose narcissism and callousness they embody.

Ken ... syntheory.com

Wow!!! I thought I was the only one living this nightmare. My situation is so very complicated so I won't do a lot of details - I met this P 6 months after hubby walked out. During that same 6 months both my parents died and 2 close friends were dieing with cancer. When he waltzed in like a prince I thought my troubles were over. This man has cost me more than I even lost in the divorce. It has taken me 3 years to get to a point where I am nearly financially able to get away. In the meantime I do everything I can to humor him so as to keep the outbursts at bay. He is physically abusive along with destructive. AND!!! After every episode he is so very sorry and has no idea why he was so upset but promises never to do it again. The lies are so overwhelming that I have no idea if anything he's ever said is the truth.

His father was abusive to his mother. Both parents are deceased and have been for 30 yrs. He has a sister and a brother he hasn't seen in who knows how long. He has 3 children. The oldest he hasn't seen since she was a year old. His second marriage he had 2 more kids and hasn't seen them for over 10 yrs.

I have been afraid for a long time but the ex husband has kept me so tied up in court and both these men (ex I believe is also a P) have just about ruined me.

Welcome, Nowheretoturn!! You may have to change your name, cuz now you do have somewhere to turn. Yes, I can relate to how you feel with "no one". It has been my observation and experience that male P's tend to target "nurturing" type females and if they are "lucky" they'll find you at your weak moments. Sounds like the second P did that for sure. They seem to have this "radar".
Then, of course, he's prince charming! At the beginning. Ah, yes, estranged family members. P's are not very good at "long term" relationships of any kind!! Also sounds like he's the Jekell/Hyde too.

Please do be very careful so that you are not physically harmed!! It's hard enough to get away "emotionally", and when you're financially strapped that's another difficultly. I understand your strategy. But you do deserve much better!! So play it safe until you can get away.

Everyone here has an interesting story and we all learn from each other. It's also very therapeutic to "talk" it out. I think you will have a sense of a "little family" here. I've not been here long at all and everyone is so encouraging, thoughtful, and has shared good advice and observations and their "remedies". We are all here to learn. Everyone contributes something here. I think you will find it beneficial. We will be looking forward to hearing/learning more from you. If you haven't done so already, read "Without Conscience" by Dr. Hare. I too was financially strapped when I got away from my P and I was able to get this book from my local library. There is a lot of good material out there, but I think that book is a good place to start.

Hang in there!!!

Again, stay strong and safe. MCN

Hi MCN,

Thanks very much for your uplifting message. You're right. I've been slumping lately but the good news is that I will rally at some point. On my good days I think I must be extremely resilient for having encountered several P situations (professional/personal) and still be standing. On my bad days, I think I must be extremely weak for having encountered several P situations at all. Perspective is an interesting thing!

That's true - some posters may not be familiar w/that term (down low). We'll have to talk about that aspect of Ps further when I'm a little more together - you seem to have good insights into their behaviour.

There's an article on this site by a reporter called Chuck Fasst who writes about narcissists. This article in particular centres around the Laci Peterson case (you may have heard of it even if you're outside of North America since it got a lot of play on CNN). In it, he refers to Scott Peterson's deviant sexual preferences - it chilled my blood because you just get a sense of how much women are dehumanized in the mind a P and in such cases, what that can lead to. This reporter seems to have a good handle on the disconnect between the Ps public personas and the way they conduct themselves in their "romantic" relationships. It's pretty twisted to say the least.

Thanks again for your encouragement.

Sylvie

Hi Sylvie, here is the link to the article. I think Scott Peterson is a full blown P but this seems to mingle him with a N diagnosis.

Chuck Fasst article...

Hey Sylvie! Glad to hear from you, but sorry you are still "in the dumps". You're right tho' you will bounce back and soon I hope. Yes, the P's are quite draining, but I think in the long run it makes us stronger and the experience makes us better prepared. Just by your wording, I think you will tough it out and you are most likely one of the more resilient!

I saw very little of the Scott Peterson trial, but I knew what it was about (I have close friends who live in the area) and just happened to catch a short bit of it. The only reason I paid any attention was because this bit was describing Scott. I recall thinking to myself, this guy sounds like a psychopath.

I agree that a P's "deviant" sexual practices can put women at risk. However, we have to keep in mind that there are female P's as well. My observation is that a female P seems to use sex more as a commodity.

Again, our culture seems to be very closed minded or "Victorian" with regard to sexual issues and I am very reluctant to "label" sexual practices as "deviant" without more clarification and this probably isn't the proper venue for that.

But I think your main thrust surrounds the educating of women involved with male P's. For a P, sex is sex. It satisfies a need, there is no emotional involvement, much less any regard to their partner's health safety. And this alone could have devastating consequences. PAY ATTENTION WOMEN!!

Get better Sylvie. I think you have a lot of good insight as well and I am looking forward to your sharing it with us.

MCN

Hi Dianne,

Thanks a lot for the link. I agree about Scott - to those familiar with the signs, he seemed to present that way very early on. He's one of the few Ps who actually is where he belongs!

Regards
Sylvie

Hi MCN,

Agree (grudgingly, right now ) that in the long run, we'll probably be stronger for all of it - thanks for that.

Yes, good point that there are female Ps too - I believe their numbers are far fewer, though it may be difficult to tell since many aren't even diagnosed. As far as using sex as a commodity, that probably isn't confined to P females, but perhaps they're more ruthless about it than other females who do that. I realize your comparison was to male Ps though.

I think we tend to use "deviant sexual practices" as a catch-all phrase mainly for convenience, but certainly that covers a range of activities some of which may not be as extreme as others. North America does tend to have a fairly strong puritanical streak. In fact, on that note, I made reference to Ps mother in a french maid's outfit - while I didn't want to expand on it - my comment was more to do with her (attention seeking, narcissistic) behaviour in it and in general. I guess it's sometimes difficult to convey these situations in "sound-bites". Yes, good point that there should be health concerns with regards to Ps and sex. Bottom line, Ps are bad for your health!

I saw other posts, where you pointed out that Ps seem to experience some level of feeling, but at a much more stunted level. I'm GLAD you pointed that out! I fully believe this too, based on the anecdotal evidence I've seen. I think it's important to talk about both the common traits that Ps have but also the nuances and differences in their behaviours.

Regards,
Sylvie

Hi Sylvie,

You sound better. I'm glad! You are soooo right when you say "bottomline, P's are bad for your health". 100%! This was your point, especially in the sexual arena and I was merely echoing it. I think it is a very important and critical message to get out there to all the women who are involved with a P.

I did understand your reference to the P's mother and the French Maid Costume. I think I understood your whole thrust of that post. My concern is that other people read our posts too and I'm just not into sticking labels on stuff of any kind.

And thank you for further defining the point about females using sex as a commodity. I overlooked that.

I think that good many people who land at this site are, at first, angry. I know I was very angry at the beginning. However, I've had some time to contemplate and examine inward and outward. But, the most difficult hurdle is the coming to grips with the fact that P's don't have a conscience. To many of us, that just sounds so far out there. And when you're trying to make "sense" out of the particular P you were/are involved with, it is extremely confusing. I found myself thinking about how he did this kind thing or said that kind thing, etc. and then comparing it to "no conscience". Having no conscience and having no emotions are two different things.

You and I and a good many other members are aware of that, but as you point out, the nuances and differences should be discussed. This is an excellent point as it serves to educate new readers and "remind" us who are a bit farther along in the "learning" process.

I learn/expand my knowledge by reading other's experiences and getting their perspective. All these little bits of information add up. The information you contributed on P's relationship with their mothers was helpful to me and gave me insight in that area as I had very little.

Hang in there!!!
MCN

Hi there MCN,

Yeah, I'm still stressed but my attitude's better - makes all the difference.

"This was your point, especially in the sexual arena and I was merely echoing it."

Absolutely. Also, I'm not big on labelling in general either, since people and activities tend to get pigeonholed and not always where they belong.

About anger, that's one I still grapple with at times - I bet most here do - but I think in general I'm better. To the extent it keeps us feisty, that's good, as long as it's not all consuming.

Good to know that you found the info about Ps and their mothers helpful. I find that as much as I've learned about Ps, there are always little nuggets of information and a-ha moments when I read the posts here. They really are a species unto themselves!

Regards,
Sylvie

Hey Sylvie,

Was reading back on your posts and recalled you were/are dealing with P's at work. At least you can up and walk away from a P on a personal level, on a professional level that's more difficult to do. No wonder you're stressed!!

It's been two years since I got out of my relationship with the P. I had virtually no baggage with him. (no kids, no home, etc.) Also did not have a long history with him (22 months). Therefore, I got off relatively easy in that respect. However, I still get angry once in awhile. But, it happens less and less with the passage of time.

Understanding and having a place like this is helpful. For me it was largely getting a better understanding. There were some people I could talk to (of my close friends) and some I could not. I quickly learned that if you hadn't been thru this or had experience thru someone else, you are going to have just as difficult a time, more so, than the "victim" who is trying to talk to you about it.

I am now far enough removed from my experience to not have the frustration, anger and sadness that one experiences early on. I recognize that public education is necessary, as is "victim" education. My purpose here is to continue to educate myself in order to educate others and to assist those here in whatever way I can by sharing experiences and to be an example that you can get over this.

I've found a good number of the members on this site to be intelligent, insightful, encouraging and caring individuals. And I feel priviledged to be apart of it!

Hang in there!!
MCN

Hey MCN,

I had written a post to you a few days ago but it went into oblivion so I thought I'd give it another shot.

Yes, a former boss was definitely a fully blown P and his track record of white collar crime (and sexual harassment) attests to this. He's never been caught though, too bad. I can't tell you how many times I've almost called the AG's office to turn the lot of them in, but I have to be careful with that. Oh, how I'd relish seeing a mugshot of him! I think he would look rather fetching in orange.

So I'm still floundering with career-related issues and the attendant stresses that brings but I'm equally determined to prevail at some point. I love this profession but I also realize I have to try and stickhandle my way around the crooks.

I read your post where you mentioned the problems you've had with a couple of family members. That's a lot to go through, especially at a young age and I realize more now why you seem tough-minded. I guess that's the silver lining. BTW, I too do not keep in touch with my sibling! I've alluded to it in the past but it's one area that I'm still not comfortable discussing at length. I'm curious, did you ever wonder if you were the common denominator? Just asking because I sometimes wondered about that, well especially before coming to this forum. It really has been terrific to be able to communicate with people who get it.

Thanks for your post,

Sylvie

P.S. I totally get your Hitler analogy - I have said something similar but with a different example though.

Hi there Sylvie,

Nice to hear from you. Yeah, having a P(s) in the workplace is a real drag and a real touchy situation in how one deals with it. Especially bad in your situation, cuz I would imagine they would be intelligent and very socialized. That makes them that much "slicker" and you really have to be on your toes then. For your sake I hope you prevail. We need more good people winning the “rat race”. Too many of the rats seem to win.

JAM had a good suggestion when he advised to write your reply in a word program and copy/paste it over to the forum reply. I just haven't figured out how to keep the italics or bold in yet. I live in an area that does get lightening storms and it knocks out the electricity for a moment and you lose everything if on the computer. If I don’t take precautions, it’s rather frustrating.

Yes, I had a very nasty childhood and had to deal with stuff an adult wouldn't want to deal with, but that "training" did prepare me for "rough" times that seem like a piece of cake when I remember the past. I had a mother who was “immobilized” by wallowing in her own self-pity and denial as well as being “in love” with a real jerk. The people who paid the price for that were her children. It’s bad enough when you do it to yourself, worse when other people are forced to suffer the consequences.

What you term “tough” is a no nonsense approach. Sometimes, being given the stark reality of a situation is a good motivator. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t.

I have two brothers and one sister. One brother has passed away and we were very close. My other brother and I are very close as well. My sister is an extremely selfish person and I gave up on her some time ago. So, when I refer to “my family” I am referring to my two children and my brother and his two children. We are all very close knit. (Both my parents have passed away)

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by being the common denominator. In my case (during our young years) I was the oldest and I took on the responsibility of “parenting” my siblings. Not so much because I am this wonderful person, but because it wasn’t being done and someone had to do it. Most of it really involved “protecting”. My sister then would “undermine” that effort if she thought there was something in it for her. She followed/follows that pattern still. In short, if I perceive that association with someone is detrimental, I just cut the ties. I will give someone the benefit of the doubt or another chance so to speak, but there is a limit. I try to cut my losses early on. I’ve just gotten the “bird’s eye” view enough to know that I don’t need that sort of mess in my life; life is too short. (Probably why I didn’t waste much time with the P I was involved with.) My sister and my father weren’t nice people at all. I wouldn’t wish them on anyone. I didn’t sever ties with them due to a lack of compassion. I knew and understood what they were capable of from experience. From what I can make of how the rest of the family deals with/dealt with my sister and my father, it seemed to me like for them there was this “rule” that because they are “blood” you just don’t sever ties with them. I find this line of thinking incredulous. There are many criminals who have been “protected” by family stemming from this line of thinking. (thus my Hitler analogy) I’m not sure if this answers your question or not. ???

Like you, I don’t talk about my family situation very much. I only do so when I think I can use it constructively. When people know you’ve “been there” and understand what they are trying relate it usually makes it easier for them.

Thanks for the sharing and caring. You’re right, it is nice to know you can communicate with people who are on the same wavelength. The really great thing is you get all different perspectives so there’s still learning to be had!!

Keep us posted on the workplace situation. I truly hope it goes well for you.

Best regards,
MCN

Hi MCN,

Thanks for your support – you are a great contributor to this forum. Yes, I’ll have to see how things unfold with the business-related P situation. Just a point of interest, he too had serious issues with and animosity towards his mother. That seems to be a recurring theme.

I often do use a word processor and then paste it in – it works well that way. That time around it so happens I didn’t.

(It’s bad enough when you do it to yourself, worse when other people are forced to suffer the consequences.)

So very true. That actually was one of the reasons I broke up with the P. I thought it was one thing to make the decision for myself but I couldn’t envision having kids with him and volunteering them to endure that situation, especially since I would have known about it going in.

I couldn’t agree with you more about cutting ties with troublemakers and such types, even if they are relatives. The fact is that for many people, it is actually family members that cause the most grief. Anymore, I just distance myself from anyone who seems to be chronically negative or destructive (toxic people). I find with people like that, they may feed of it but for the rest of us it’s just an energy drain. Life is indeed too short to be tussling with or be victimized by them. I’m glad that you’re close to your brother and his family – that makes all the difference.

I should have explained my “common denominator” phrase a little better. What I mean is because you have encountered several of these personalities, did you ever feel that either something in your personality was attracting them or perhaps there was something wrong with you. Maybe not, if there was more of a gap between these situations for you. In my case they were back-to-back or there was an overlap and that’s what made me wonder. If I wondered that about myself at one point, I don’t feel that any more. I just know that these individuals very likely have personality disorders and that they can be encountered anywhere. Having said that, I did decide that I needed to set clearer boundaries and stick to them. It doesn’t necessarily work with Ps, but just in general.

Yes, to the extent anyone is comfortable talking about these situations, it can only be helpful for others. I just don’t think I’m there yet, or not to the same level of detail as I’ve discussed the other personal and professional encounters I’ve had.

Regards,

Sylvie

Hi Sylvie,

Thank you. You do an excellent job yourself contributing to the forum. I enjoy and learn from your posts. I have made a mental note to myself to pay more attention to a man’s relationship with his mother in the future because of you.

The worse time for me when I broke off with the P was the first six months. I did not have this forum nor did I recognize he was a P until two weeks later. I did things the reverse of what many people here are doing. During those two weeks I kept going over the relationship in my head. I told you about his staring at the wall incident. It wasn’t until that precise moment I fully realized there was something seriously wrong with him. Prior to that I just found his behavior a little odd at times, but it continually got odder and I began to see he was lying a lot. Once I suspected he was a P, I began reading all I could get my hands on. That’s when I began wondering if I was some kind of P magnet. Dr Hare’s statement that even he could be deceived made me feel less “stupid” about the situation. Dr. Hare also pointed out that P’s seem to seek out nurturing people. Here, at the forum, you “see” my tough side. “Tough” situations require “tough” resolutions. My nurturing side is what attracts P’s. And, yes, experience with a P does tend to make one doubt one’s own judgment. However, with a little education and once the “dust settles” I think one gets back on track. In the very least, you won’t be “broadsided” by a P again relationship wise and if you have to work with one, you will recognize them for what they are and be able to deal with them better. (Knowledge is power) So, I would guess that the “common denominator” for me is the “nurturing” aspect. Listening to many of the women here, it is evident that they are nurturing and caring people. The first thing they want to do is get help for the P they are involved with. Many of us here are aware that there is no help available for a P.

I don’t think I need to “change” my nurturing side. I am now aware that I need to be more cautious about the people it may attract.

It sounds as though you were able to envision the future with your P and foresaw what life would be like for “your children”. Very wise and very mature thinking.

("I did decide that I needed to set clearer boundaries and stick to them.") This too is very wise and mature thinking. However, it does work with P’s. They just try to tear down the boundaries and your resolve. I think the key is “sticking” to them. P’s don’t generally have a high frustration tolerance. I think I did have clear boundaries and I do stick to them. This is probably another factor that saved me from the P.

I found that talking about my disturbing childhood also helped me put things into focus and I got just as much, if not more, out of it when I shared it. However it did take years for me to get that issue resolved. There were actually three major issues involved, but I did not recognize them as issues to be resolved until after they were resolved. Each of them sort of popped up through a course of events over a 20 year span. Each time one of the issues were resolved, I thought I had “closed the book” on that aspect of my life. The final issue was not resolved until my late 30’s. Now, at last, I can say I’ve closed the book on it. I understand how you may not be comfortable in talking about certain aspects of your life, but I thought I would share that with you.

You sound as though you have both feet planted firmly on the ground and have a promising career. You have much to look forward to. From your posts you have a good grasp on the P situation, so I think you will be ok there. In short, you got your psychopath “inoculation” and it seems to have stuck. I hope you find the “right person” to share your future with. I enjoy reading your posts to me and to others. You’ve shared a lot of good insight.

Best regards,
MCN

Hi there MCN,

YVW. Yes, I too noticed incidents with the P I dated that struck me as odd/inappropriate. I guess I just didn't stitch them together and realize what they implied about him or not the extent of it anyway. (Everyone's story!) So absolutely, knowledge is power. The pathological lying is such a major red flag. It still never ceases to amaze me how easily they lie - they make things up out of whole cloth and don't blink an eyelash. Quite an advantage for them in any dispute they are involved in.

With the ex-boss P, I did recognize very early on that he seemed to exhibit some of the same traits as my ex-BF, but as you recognized, it can be complicated walking away from a business situation. However, I did make a choice to stay. I remember being totally weirded out when I noticed that P boss drove the exact same car as ex-BF (an uncommon one). In retrospect, probably not a co-incidence though since they usually are flashy and very materialistic.

As far as being nurturing, I agree, they are drawn to women like that. Good point about that being a common denominator. While I can't say I've changed my personality in a big way (wouldn't want to I guess), I have no desire to be as nurturing as I was before. At a minimum, I apply it much more selectively.

I agree that Ps just try to tear down boundaries - for them that's part of the challenge - they seem to get a rush out of it. One thing I observed with all 3 or 4 Ps (or APDs whatever they are), is that they don't mess with people who they believe would respond unfavourably. They recognize it may not be in their best interest to do that. So certainly, being tough has its merits, no doubt. The converse of that, is if they perceive that there won't a response or an adequate one anyway, I think one can expect to have tread marks on them.

Thanks for elucidating how you handled issues from your childhood. I definitely don't think that internalizing all those sorts of problems is the answer, actually it's detrimental. I come from a fairly traditional community where people tend to do that a lot and I think that's a big part of the problem. It fosters an environment where the bullies and Ps can run roughshod over family members etc. and there are no shortage of people who will cover for them. In fact, I guess denial factors into many of these situations, whether it's the "blue wall of silence" or within a family or community. I know for sure, in my situation on that front, I intend to become much more vocal in general. I'm just biding my time until I'm on more stable footing careerwise.

"You sound as though you have both feet planted firmly on the ground and have a promising career."

Thanks for that! I can barely wait to get it back properly!

I did already meet a fabulous person. Couldn't date at first for business reasons and then I probably got skittish. Too soon after the P situation. But it was exactly the diversion I needed - a reminder that there are well-anchored men out there. The fact that he was tall, broad shouldered and hazel eyed didn't hurt - yum! . Yes, I hope all of us posting here are able to move on to terrific people and stable relationships - I'll drink to that!

Best regards,

Sylvie

Hi Sylvie,

I figured you will eventually get around to doing whatever is is you need to do. You're an intelligent person and dealing with things on your own terms and time is always the most advantageous way to go about it.

Yes, P's are truly amazing at how easily they lie and so convincingly, fortunately since they do it so fast and furiously they can't keep up with them in the long run. What becomes even more maddening is when you bust them lying and they are like "so what." That's infuriating. That's when I really became unglued.

I do believe they get "more than their way" when they lie, cheat, steal, whatever. I do believe, as you, that they get some kind of thrill out of it all. Further, I believe that the more intelligent and socialized they are the more adept and skillful they are at manuevering and creating situations merely for their own "thrill" of it all. AND thus I believe these same intelligent ones often choose "victims" who are not quite as easy to deceive. These particular P's seem to be the most dangerous ones of all. Not only are the stakes higher, the thrill will be greater. But, as you said, for the most part they don't want to work too hard at their craft and any who appear to take more more time than they deem worth their effort will probably be left alone. And again, I think you are correct that those are the one who will be targeted in some other way which will not be a pleasant experience either. As you say, "with tread marks on them." It's sorta like they need to "zing" you one way or the other.

I am happy for you that you have met someone "fabulous". It just takes a little time to get over the P episode and do some "mending" but there are decent people in this world. Now you can move on with your life. As bad as our P experience was, at least we've learned something from it and it will add to our "wisdom".

Cheers,
MCN

Hi again MCN,

One other thing (yeah, I'm on a roll today!), you mentioned some staring incidents involving the P you knew. Thinking back, I remember the P I dated would get this strange look when he was caught with his hand in the cookie jar in any way. Both staring and shifty eyed strangely enough. It's as if in that moment, he was in a different zone, because his mask of deceit had been penetrated. Weird, weird, weird!

I also read your post to Jamie. It must have been absolutely terrible to experience all of that and I commend you for getting through it and seeming as pulled together. That takes a lot of courage and willpower I 'm sure.

I noted in particular what you said about your uncle being the D.A. Ps (or people like them with personality disorders/issues, etc.) always seem to have protectors - it's something that I find infuriating but it seems standard. Scott Peterson apparently had 39 people (39!) vouch for his good character, AFTER he was convicted (if I'm not mistaken). The prosecutor, to his credit, turned it around to some extent by pointing out that it was testament to how manipulative Peterson was and how many people he was able to dupe.

Also, I imagine your mother siding with your stepfather must have been particularly painful. Again, I think denial of these kinds of situations is a scourge of sorts in itself. All it does is rub salt in the wounds of victims and make them feel more isolated and vulnerable.

I'm glad you were able to get away and build a life for yourself and as I said before, that you have a close relationship with your brother. I think that's so important, when it can be had anyway.

Best regards,

Sylvie

Hi again MCN,

Just saw your most recent post - we're practically chatting today - lol. Thanks for that.

"What becomes even more maddening is when you bust them lying and they are like "so what." That's infuriating. That's when I really became unglued."

Geeze, can I ever relate to that! Especially the part about becoming unglued. YES! I used to blow a fuse during those incidents. Another poster said that people who had known Ps felt they had never acted worse than they did when with them. So true! It's when the P would smirk or start to make me out to be the nut (again standard P tactic) that I would realize that I was allowing him to push my buttons way too much. That's when I was able to step back and evaluate my own reaction and conclude that situation would never be constructive for me.

Agree, there are decent people, lots actually. Had I not known the dregs, I probably wouldn't appreciate them quite so much. There's usually a silver lining.

Best regards,

Sylvie


P.S. I'm not actually with "fabulousman" but just meeting and getting to know him through our business dealings at that time was a delight because he was the antithesis of P. It was refreshing.

Sylvie, hee hee - I think we're both on a roll,

It is so difficult to acurately describe that psychopathic stare to people who have never seen it!! It's like no other "stare" you've ever witnessed in life! It is so bizarre that you NEVER forget it once you've seen it. I've heard it described so many different ways.

I've contemplated this one over and over trying to "pinpoint" just what sets it into motion. Like you, I've concluded that it has something to do with when you "bust" them in some kind of deceit. I've even wondered where they are exactly when they go into that "zone" area. Like what happened? At that precise moment are they incapable of coming up with another lie or are they busy spinning off into another mode, like trying to search their "memory banks" for the appropriate response? It's sorta like a glitch in a computer/robot. A minor shut-down.

I, by choice and "reality", made a condensed version of the nightmare childhood. If I "told all" I'd be typing into next week and I don't have the time or energy. My father sustained a head injury (piece of sharpnel thru the eye into the brain) during WWII. This was a part of his problem, tho' he wasn't a "nice" person prior to the injury either. (My father was physically abused by his father) People felt sorry for him, thus the "protectors". Many people "used" my father for financial gain and many found him rather "odd" in a "doofy" sort of way.

Yes, when a child contemplates coming forth with "sexual" abuse, they often do not understand precisely what is going on. Many do not come forward because they quite correctly deduce in an intuitive manner and fear that "some way, somehow" bringing the situation to the "adults'" attention is liable to be turned against him/her. When my mother chose to believe my stepfather over me, it was equivalent to saying "in a child's manner of thinking" she did not love me. As adults, hopefully, the "child-victim" understands all the implied and real emotions of the then situation. I was able to understand why my mother could not/would not accept the reality. I don't know about other children, but I knew then that I truly was not to blame and I don't think that anything would have made me believe otherwise. I always found my stepfather the personification of pure evil and never relented in my rebellion of his control, for my sake as well as my siblings'. The only thing I can chalk it up to is my own clear sense of "right and wrong". Early on, I experienced how someone can make you appear to be the evil one even tho' it is not deserved.

Yes, the family members I am close with mean so much to me. We are very close and loving. If I had been able to choose my own brothers and children, I couldn't have done better. They all own a piece of my heart. For this, I feel I am one of the "wealthiest" people on earth!!

Best regards,
MCN

Yeah, again Sylvie,

I forgot to tell you that I was at an evening social gathering and ran into someone who knew my "ex" P. The gal had remembered meeting me when we were seeing each other. She started going on about what a nice fellow he is. I just looked at her like, "YOU'VE got to be KIDDING me!!" She was a pretty astute gal and I'm not good at masking what I'm thinking, it's usually written all over my face even when I THINK I'm doing an excellent job at hiding it. She stopped in the middle of her praise of him, and said, "Uh, maybe not?" I just smiled and said, "that wasn't my experience." I'm sure she thought, "messy breakup" and assumed I was the stereotypical "scorned woman". And I know there are dozens of people who think he's this really swell guy. So, the Scott Peterson thing didn't surprise me at all. Just reinforced my conclusion that he is most likely a P.

OK, I'm done, I think.

MCN

"So, the Scott Peterson thing didn't surprise me at all. Just reinforced my conclusion that he is most likely a P."

I have no doubt that Scott Peterson is DEFINITELY a "CLASSIC" P! He has ALL the traits -- which is very scary because the first day I met with my P - I told him "I usually don't "do this" because you never know who to trust these days - with the Scott Peterson's, Ted Bundy's and all"... (YIKES- little did I know he WAS a P!!) Of course he OVER reacted with "ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! -- I'm the NICEST most honest guy you'll ever meet!!!" He went on to say how he hates those "feelingless, horrible creeps" and how they should be tortured, etc... I said "Well, you remind me a little of Scott Peterson - you're very handsome and charming".... He laughed it off. Then he said "How do I know you're not a "Marilyn Monroe" (implying she had mental issues) or someone like THAT? He ALWAYS turned the conversation around or charmingly changed the subject. I was always left baffled and confused... but HOOKED! UGH.

In reply to:

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I said "Well, you remind me a little of Scott Peterson - you're very handsome and charming".... He laughed it off. Then he said "How do I know you're not a "Marilyn Monroe" (implying she had mental issues) or someone like THAT? He ALWAYS turned the conversation around or charmingly changed the subject. I was always left baffled and confused... but HOOKED! UGH.

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Beautiful. Psychopathy at it's finest. That's going into my book of quotes...

Hello everyone - I have to agree - I do think there is an "attachment disorder" connection (to becoming a P) though I have also heard there are P's from completely healthy homes!? My P, however (according to him, but of course who REALLY knows for sure?) claimed that both his mother and father where alcoholics, and that his mother's first husband died and her first son was killed when he was 4 years old (hit by a car). He said "Can you imagine how hard it was for me trying to live up to her perfect son that was killed?" I felt SO SORRY for him (that was the IDEA, wasn't it?!) ;-) For all I know, it was all LIES, but even if not that's no excuse to let it ruin your life. He IS in his 40's -- uh... I think it's time to GROW UP!

Thanks, JustAMan...! ;-) Do you really have a "Book of Quotes"???? I'd love to read it!

Hi

Personally, I believe psychopaths are born and not "created" unless the person has had a brain injury that affects the area of the brain we now think is responsible for "psychopathy". P's don't become, they are.

Secondly, I think psychopaths can come from very good homes. Believing what a psychopath tells you about his/her upbringing is a total waste of time, as it has an extremely high probability of NOT being true.

And on my soapbox: It seems to me that our culture/society is too quick to jump onto the "it must be the parenting" bandwagon. (Once upon a time, we held the female "responsible" for the gender of a child. We now know that the male contribution is "responsible" for the gender of the child.)

Also, to "blame" parenting, of which the major responsibility of this task falls to women to this day, is one of the biggest mind(censored)s of our culture. (I censored myself, JAM.)

If parenting were to blame, I should be a criminal person, a psychopath, or locked away in a mental institution!

I believe that many parents don't come forth with "problem" children for fear (and rightly justified) that they will be blamed and held responsible for whatever ails their child. They are blamed genetically and emotionally. This type of thinking is self-limiting and inhibits exploring other factors and perspectives.

Ok, I feel better now.

MCN

In reply to:

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Thanks, JustAMan...! ;-) Do you really have a "Book of Quotes"???? I'd love to read it!

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Ha! that was partly just a figure of speech... but I do have enough material for one, its just not collated.

Unfortunately a large portion of it must remain private, as it derives from somebody who is currently still married, but divorcing, from a P. If the p ever saw his words on the web he'd go ballistic!!

Dear More Cautious Now (Great NAME! ME TOO!) Thank you for your reply. You are so right when you explain that parents are blamed WAY too much for their children's problems- and I know PLENTY of people who were raised in Hellish homes and turned out fine and vice/versa! So, it's basically a brain disorder and they are born that way? It amazes me how many have this same disorder and the traits are the same! It is fascinating to me... since this has "happened" I have been really interested in this - not so much to find answers about ("Did he REALLY love ME?!) (I know that is not possible). But, basically just to see the the common traits and experiences. It feels better to share, and I'm grateful for this site. Thank you again.

Hi tiasa, brain studies and Psychopaths is just emerging. There is about as much as I can find on the subject in the Resource Section here, although I am due to go on a massive search and link update

Brain Studies and Psychopaths

Di, Thanks so much! I'm LEARNING SO MUCH~! It's incredible! Thanks again.

Hey MCN,

I decided not to wait till the weekend to respond this time - the roll continues! The subject of Ps seems to be a bottomless pit in a way - there are so many aspects to their personalities and ways in which they do damage that it can be discussed endlessly.

I think your assessment of why they take on a strange almost vacuous appearance at times when they are caught with their pants down (so to speak or not so to speak)is bang on. With both P-boss and P-ex you could almost hear the wheels turning while they tried to come up with something.

One thing that stood out to me when reading yours and Jamie's posts is that you'll both come across level headed. For my part, I was always the sensible one in the family, the one that didn't want to make waves and just sort of keep the peace. I guess we all fill certain roles and that then becomes the expectation of us. I'm not sure where I'm going with this right now so I'll leave it at that.

About the woman you met that praised the P, no it isn't surprising. The P I knew certainly had a lot of supporters, however I was pleasantly surprised that some people seemed to have noticed the chinks in his public image. There were those who thought he was too charming by far, maybe even slick. I actually did very little badmouthing of him in public, in fact, I think I could have done a much better job of defending myself but as you know it is a bit of a balacing act.

I did say to a few people that his wholesale trashing of my reputation confirmed that I had done the right thing by breaking up with him in the first place.

Cheers for now,

Sylvie

P.S. I have an awful poker face too. If I don't like someone, I have a real hard time covering it up and sometimes I have no desire to pretend anyway.

Hi Sylvie,

My brother, with whom I am close and spoke of, and one of my children are more like you. The quiet one and peacemaker. However, sometimes you "quiet" ones take us by surprise sometimes. Like when you get pushed a little too far. Or you come up with something no one expects from you.

I was "rebellious" but not in the typical fashion. I detested my stepfather hurting me or my brothers or sister and I would stand up to him. When I learned child beating was against the law, I became that much braver. My thinking then was that I would risk getting hurt in order to be rid of the jerk. Those days were different than now. If you went to the authorities then and told them your father threatened to blacken your eyes and break your legs they told you come back when you have a "mark" on you. So, I wanted him to draw blood, break skin, ANYTHING I could show them. Funny thing tho' once I began standing up and daring him to hit me, he backed down. I was rebellious over "wrong" things I saw being done. Otherwise, I was fairly quiet. I preferred reading and writing as oposed to more "atheletic" type things, tho' I enjoy them as well. But I do speak up and I don't just go along with "the crowd".

People always seem so shocked when I tell them about those days. They are surprised at how "normal" I am and tell me they never would have guessed. Sometimes I am amazed that I didn't "lose it" along the way and I wonder how come. I've seen others who can barely function anylonger and I wonder just what the difference is? Look at Jamie. I think he had it worse than I did and he's hanging in there and he STILL has to deal with his father! What a nightmare.

I have no clue what my ex P tells anyone about me, if anything. Nothing has gotten back to me. However, this P was very intelligent and very well socialized. A few people have told me that they never liked him and there are some that said this that knew him before I did. They just didn't get "good vibes" from him. That also makes me wonder. Like what did they see that I didn't? Or, did I ignore something I shouldn't have. That's one of those things that goes round in my head alot. I am very "accepting" of people tho', meaning "different" looking, acting etc. doesn't put me off easily, unless it's leaning more to the extreme side and threatening. I try to be mindful of my "acceptance" now tho, for protection.

However, the P tactic of trashing other people gets the focus off him and on you. But this goes on everyday in the political arena. Makes you wonder, huh? Again, P's lie so much that eventually it does have a way of catching up. Once someone lies to me, I begin to discount everything they say or ever said to me.

Glad you didn't wait until the weekend to respond!

Cheers,
MCN

In reply to:

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I think your assessment of why they take on a strange almost vacuous appearance at times when they are caught with their pants down (so to speak or not so to speak)is bang on. With both P-boss and P-ex you could almost hear the wheels turning while they tried to come up with something.

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Fascinating. Exactly this has been reported to me. That when during a discussion or argument the P got logically locked into a corner where it didnt want to be, it would go into a sort of lock up - like a crashed or looping compuuter program , and take on a strange vacuous stare, as if nobody was home. Then it would usually have a temper tantrum - divert to a different subject or slam out of the room.

Hey Sylvie,

I was thinking about the staring thing. Mostly trying to rustle my memory for detail about what was going on when I saw it. The very first time was not as odd as the others. But it did get my attention. I was at his home and I remember asking him what he had done all day. He had told me that he had planned to stay home and get some housework done as his son was gone for the holiday week. When I got there it was obvious he'd not done a thing. I asked him what he did all day. He mumbled something about not feeling well. So I asked if he stayed in bed all day and he said no and then the stare came into play. It became apparent to me that he didn't want to be questioned. (Hindsight being 20/20, he probably spent the evening and good part of the day with someone else.)

The second time I saw it was when I confronted him about some deceit, and that was when I really found it odd, but didn't actually connect it to the first time. This time he went from looking directly at me to glazed over, past me. I almost wanted to turn around and look over my shoulder. We were in a restaurant. He was trying to say that he hadn't lied, and "technically" he hadn't which I jumped ahead of him and told him that, but pointed out that deliberately being deceitful was the same as far as I was concerned. Again, he tried to deny it, and I raised my voice and pointed my finger at him saying, "Don't you give me that." Well, he sorta flinched as I know others close to our table heard me. (Oooo, I was embarassing him!) Then he went into the stare. This time it really had my attention. It lasted for a few seconds and he "came back again" but he was more subdued.

The third time was the one I mentioned about what he told me his mother said about me being "comfortable in my own skin." However, I never asked him what his mother had to say about me, he simply offered it. This time the stare was more like the first time, but it was this incident that made me recall seeing the second and first times and I thought it was a bit odd. (Remember, I never figured out he was a P until after I left the relationship).

The fourth and final time was the most bizarre of all. That was the time I asked him what he "felt". That time it just wasn't the stare, his entire face sort of slackened and he turned and stared at the wall. He did so very slowly and almost "robotically". And he remained like that, not moving a muscle for somewhere between 5-8 minutes. (This is no exaggeration, if I was not there myself I would have a difficult time believing it.) I was flabberghasted. His whole behavior was so bizarre for the situation. That's when my inner voice said, "there's something really wrong with this person and you need to exit, NOW." I was so stunned all I did was sit there and look at him. My head was summing up how safe it would be to just get up and walk out, like was he going to get up and follow me? Finally, he "came out of it" and turned and looked at me with deadpan seriousness and told me he couldn't tell me how he felt. Like this was just a matter of fact thing and quite "acceptable". Given the circumstances, it was no where near acceptable. It was like "Twilight Zone" time. At this point, it was like I just wanted to go as fast and far away from him as I could get, but his reaction being so out there catches you so off guard that you feel yourself trying to get your bearings. Finally, my brain was "screaming" at me, "don't be trying to figure this out NOW, just get away from this person!!"

As we agree, there seems to be some disconnect thing going on with them, but for this particular P, being so intelligent and socialized, I also think he had "learned" that when this disconnect thing came over him, there was some "anger managment control" thing going on too. I never saw this guy "lose it." His stare was never threatening or scary in that sense. It only seemed scary cuz it was so "out there." This is why I think that this particular P had some kind of major therapy at some point in his life. The facing the wall incident, I think he was really upset more at how I had busted him in a lie and the manner in which I controlled the whole situation (he had none in that instance and I didn't give him any "advance" notice/signal as to what was going down, which I think they count on) and frosting the cake with the question, "how do you feel?" And it was all "dumb" luck on my part cuz I didn't even realize I was dealing with a P.

Just had the urge to share that with you.

Cheers,
MCN

Hi MCN and all

About the staring thing…..R does it a lot.

The first time I was aware of it was a couple of years ago when he was still trying to manipulate me and therefore speaking to me. A situation cropped up to make me ask him whom he loved. I said he could tell me honestly and he didn’t have to say he loved me because I was too new in his life. (I knew he would say me just because he would think that was what I wanted to hear.)

He stared ahead for so long I thought he had gone to sleep and the eventual answer was a shrug of the shoulders. When I pushed a little further and said there must be someone, he replied “gran - I suppose”. When I asked about his father he said he didn’t even like him. I felt this is the only time he has been honest.

Whenever he is actually caught out lying or doing something bad and asked why he did it he just stares blankly as though we have asked him to explain the big bang theory.
We get serious eye contact when he is trying to get out of a lie or blaming someone else for his misdeeds that we didn’t witness but know he did it.

The time before last when he was home from school he spent a lot of the time staring at me while pretending to read a book or watch TV, the book was even upside down on one occasion. I haven’t a clue what that was all about but I pretended not to notice.

When he goes next door to our neighbour, who is a retired teacher and she asks him a question he doesn’t want to answer he picks up one of her magazines and stares at that. When she tells him to put it down he gets up and leaves.

Anyone got any ideas on this?

Jan

Jan,

I actually already answered you. I thought I posted it, but maybe it went off into "posts never, neverland" somewhere, or Di is in the process of moving it. Which it is, I'm not certain. However, if Di hasn't moved it I will answer it on "our" new thread "Observing Fledgling P's". I may have to retype and I have an appointment to go to so it will be a few hours before I can get back into this.

Later,
MCN

Hi MCN,

"However, sometimes you "quiet" ones take us by surprise sometimes. Like when you get pushed a little too far. Or you come up with something no one expects from you."

I had to laugh at that. P-boss used to introduce me as the "iron fist in velvet glove type". He seemed to find it highly amusing that people misread my softspoken-ness.

I'm not a lemming either by the way. I have heard that Ps (and just plain bullies) tend to target people who are independent minded and have a strong sense of right and wrong. I suppose they feel threatened by it. I used to read a lot too and thoroughly enjoyed it.

That's awful what you said about wanting to be hurt yourself in a way that would prompt the authorities to action. I know that in the past, the police were reluctant to interfere in domestic abuse cases. At least adults perhaps could try and take themselves out of the situation but kids are so much more dependent and vulnerable.

As far as you not seeing what others did about "your" P, I think it's sometimes difficult to get an accurate read on a situation when you're that close to it. I too still sometimes look back and wonder how I could have discounted all the red flags, at least enough that I stayed with him. The irony is that a relative who I have come to believe has a personality disorder was the first to say that there was more to the P than met the eye. What's particularly suprising to me is that she recognized it after just meeting him a couple of times. Makes me wonder if they have some special radar.

I remember on our first date, P looked into every mirror we passed by and adjusted his hair or just looked at his reflection. I thought it was bizarre and a total turnoff. And that was before the day of the metrosexual! I didn't even want to go out on a second date with him but that same relative suggested I was too picky and maybe I should give him a chance. So I relented. I can usually tell very quickly if I feel chemistry with someone - in his case I felt little to none and wasn't particularly attracted to him. And that would be the same person I ended up going out with for years! It speaks to their charm and ability to control. I will ALWAYS be grateful that I didn't marry him. Wild horses couldn't have dragged me down that aisle.

Regards
Sylvie

Hi again MCN,

It's been long enough since I went out with P that I can't remember all the staring incidents that happened. I do remember though, that several times when we went away someplace, he would seem to be distant at certain times during the trip. Distant isn't even quite the right word, there was just something eerie. As if he was there in body, but his soul was missing. Sort of like an android.

The thing I still find difficult to get my mind around (and from other posts it's clear that many posters struggle with this) is that there seemed to be indications that P did have feelings. I remember he used to repeatedly tell me he hated it when I was upset with him and it certainly seemed genuine. It's as if at some level it bothered him but it was beyond his ability to change his behaviour.

I remember one incident in particular when I guess we had previously had an argument. I went to his place just to talk things out. At one point he was standing with his back towards me and I suddenly realized he was crying. It sort of shocked me because he seemed VERY upset and I hadn't realized the extent of it. I remember other incidents when he was similarly vey upset and the impression I got was that he had insights into the fact that there was something wrong with him but it was beyond him to change it. It's as if he wanted a shot at a normal life and relationship but he couldn't get rid of whatever demons controlled him.

I want to say more about this whole aspect about Ps and feelings again some time because I really think that plays a part in why women (and men) stay in these relationships longer than they should. I'll have to do that some other time though, it's late now. In fact there are still other posts I should respond to.

About waiting till the weekend to post, I usually tend to have more time and energy then. I'm definitely grateful for this board being here, but sometimes I find I have to take a break from the subject of Ps.

Bye for now,

Sylvie

Hey Sylvie,

Hope your week is going well. Yeah, you quiet ones……my daughter is like that. One time she made an off color remark that totally took us by surprise. None of us are “prudes” by any means, but it was so untypical of her. Our mouths dropped open not because of what she said, but because she said it. I would never accuse you of being a lemming. You certainly don’t sound like one. You quiet ones are many times among the most stubborn, I’ve noted. LOL. You, me and Jan could probably mud wrestlers or something!!! I don’t get the impression that either one of you is a shrinking violet.

Today, if a kid walked in to the authorities and said my dad threatened to blacken both my eyes, they would take the parents into custody practically till it was ironed out. Back then, it was not the case. I was just so desperate to have the psychopath out of my life; I was willing to make the sacrifice.

Geez, so many of the things your P did, mine did as well. My P had a large mirror in his dining room and when we were sitting there eating I noticed he looked at himself a lot. I also had a relative (no social disorder tho) who didn’t like the P, but said noting until it was over and done with. I met my P at a social gathering. I recall thinking he was a little “pushy” at first and I didn’t care for that attitude. He sorta settled down after chatting with him a bit, so I thought maybe it was the “confident male” approach men sometimes exhibit when approaching some woman they have an interest in. I understand now they hone in on you and begin mirroring what it is you would like them to be and then they start behaving along those lines. Ugh. These guys are like a box of poisoned chocolates!

And I know what you mean about “discounting” the red flags. I think to myself, gee, how come I did that?? I wasn’t blinded by love. This is probably why I’ve taken the time to educate myself on this. I definitely don’t want to repeat this experience again.

I didn’t “lose” as much time as some of the others did and did not lose any money. I consider myself really fortunate in that respect. Fortunately, you didn’t marry the guy nor have kids. That is a whole ‘nother nightmare to ponder. But you have to deal with them in the workplace and that can be just as bad. Especially cuz the average person just can’t walk away from their employment!! Like, no contact isn’t work in that situation, so I imagine you have to always be on your toes and one step ahead of them all the time and constantly looking over your shoulder. Not easy. Sounds like a real juggling act to me.

Best regards,
MCN

Hi Syl,

I think you have brought in a very interesting and good topic for discussion with regard to feelings and psychopaths.

If you think about it logically, hard and fast rules can’t always apply to everything. There is always a “gray” area. The best analogy I can make here is that when you have children with Downs Syndrome, some are apparently more functional than others. So you would assume there are degrees to this affliction. I think this is possible in psychopaths as well.

“Despite their outward arrogance, inside psychopaths feel inferior to others and know they are stigmatized by their own behavior. Although some psychopaths are superficially adapted to their environment and are even popular, they feel they must carefully hide their true nature because it will not be accepted by others. This leaves psychopaths with a difficult choice: adapt and participate in an empty, unreal life, or do not adapt and live a lonely life isolated from the social community. They see the love and friendship others share and feel dejected knowing they will never take part in it. “ Psychiatric Times. Hidden Suffering of the Psychopath. Willem H.J. Marten, MD, PhD. January 2002, Vol. XIX, Issue 1

Many of us have horror stories here and I think sometimes we need to remind ourselves that we are only beginning to understand psychopathy and there is much more yet to be discovered. Yet, at the same time, we need to recognize the need to protect ourselves as well. To date, there is no scientific hope or medical hope to “cure” a psychopath. I want to make this clear for all who read this. Knowingly throwing in your lot with a psychopath WILL put you at risk.

That said, you have read my description of my last confrontation with my P. When he told me he couldn’t tell me how he felt, he also added, “That’s me.” He was looking down when he said it. I think he was being honest. He couldn’t tell me how he felt and he did tell the truth. It was him. He truly looked pathetic, but this time I don’t think that’s what he intended. I recall thinking to myself at the moment, although he seemed pathetic, “that’s you alright. And now watch ME walk away. I don’t want any part of YOU.” I was both shocked and angry at the time, but have since reflected on this. As you stated, they realize on some level that they cannot control their behavior. I truly do “feel sorry” for psychopaths, as they will never have what we have. And here I am speaking of compassion and empathy. They are major components needed in order to truly “love”. At the same time, I realize I cannot change a psychopath, nor will any amount of love. And I am not willing to obliterate myself for a psychopath.

In discussing this topic, it is important to keep in mind; psychopaths do have emotions, they lack a conscience. To what degree and capacity they have emotions is what we are trying to discern. Psychopaths can be humiliated and they do suffer from depression. I think in order to understand their emotions, we would have to know more about how they define humiliation, or friendship, or love or sadness.

Again, I think your observation of why so many men and women stay in relationships with a psychopath is very astute and again another good topic for discussion.

Anyone with any ideas, insight or observations on this topic?? (Maybe we need a new thread for this one? Dianne?)

MCN

PS Sylvie, I assumed the reason for waiting for the weekend to reply to posts. It was just my way of saying I enjoy “talking” with you and was glad I didn’t have to wait until the weekend.

In reply to:

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There is always a “gray” area. The best analogy I can make here is that when you have children with Downs Syndrome, some are apparently more functional than others. So you would assume there are degrees to this affliction. I think this is possible in psychopaths as well.

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This is an interesting point and something I'm not certain about.

What you say about the variability of expressed symptoms in Downs syndrome I think is a bit of a red herring. Ignoring the symptoms seen on an individual basis, Downs is a syndrome with a sharp boundary condition. Its black and white. You either have it or you dont. There is no such thing as a partially 'Downsic' individual as the syndrome arises from the accidental doubling up of chromosome 21. The extra chromosome is either present or it isnt.

Can the same be said for psychopathy? Is there a real boundary separating 'psychopath' from 'normal'? Or is it (as I am inclined to think but am not sure of) an arbitrary range at one end of a continuous spectrum of personality types ranging from the non-existent pure psychopath at one end to the equally non-existent pure empath at the other. (I'm not religious and I dont believe in 'saints'!)

I too find it fascinating JAM (in a morbid way).

"as if no-one was home"

Exactly!

I had almost forgotten about the tantrum part, which may be a good sign in itself. Also, if you back out the vacuous stare, this behaviour is similar to the way a child would react when caught doing something wrong. Perhaps that's why the P was described as having "elementary problem solving skills" by his shrink. It infuriated him when I mentioned that - may have hit a nerve.

Hi there MCN,

I see this board has been hopping in the last few days. I did think you probably understood the waiting till the weekend part - likewise I enjoy reading your posts and your particular observations.

I'm going to respond to your posts in the next couple of days. The last couple are particularly thought provoking and I want to take more time with them. I thought it was interesting that you observed "your" P looking in the mirror. The P I knew was very narcissistic, as was his mother. In fact, it defined her. Their place had mirrors all over, several mirrored walls actually. Not my thing - it seemed a little cheesy, but then I'm biased.

I too met the P at a social event - a dance. He said he had spotted me at a previous dance and was looking for me. If some other guy said that it would be flattering - in his case (after I knew him for a while) it came off a little like the fox had spotted the rabbit.

Catch up w/you later,

Sylvie

Hey there JAM,

I believe you have a point. I think we are coming at the problem from different perspectives tho'. If I understood you correctly, you think it is possible for someone to have psychopathic tendencies without being a psychopath (?) Let me know if I have it wrong.

I tend toward one could be a psychopath with differnt levels of severity.

Do you think this would make a good topic as well? I think it would be interesting and educational to sort out the differences on that one.

I'm up for starting a thread on this topic too if you are. We can ask Dianne to move it.

Regards,
MCN

Hey Sylvie,

You got an "honorable" mention in Observing Fledgling Psychopaths. Better read it if you haven't already. Serious business proposition going on there. LOL.

Narcissism and Psychopathy, as they are currently defined, are "kissin' cousins". However, it does appear (at least on the surface) that narcissism is a component of psychopathy. However, narcissism seems to stop short of psychopathy. Starts getting mind boggling if you ask me.

Shall wait to hear your thoughts on it.

The mirror decor is not my taste either. I had a relative who could never pass a mirror without looking at herself. I find mirrors easy to ignore. I like to be kind to myself. LOL.

Cheers,
MCN

In reply to:

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you think it is possible for someone to have psychopathic tendencies without being a psychopath (?)

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Yes, absolutely. I remember Hare saying something about this in an interview. Basically hs was complaining that unqualified people were cherrypicking his 20 point psychopathy checklist - picking out a few traits that they could see in somebody and then saying "He's a P" - Hare was saying that this is nonsense, that you need to identify more or less the whole caboodle in somebody to be confident that the are in fact a psychopath - somebody with severly depressed emotional responses and no conscience, scoring 30 or more on the checklist, which has a maximum score of 40

Many people have some psychopathic tendencies. Possibly most? None of us are saints. Theres selfishness and competitiveness in all of us. Normal people co-operate and compete, but we (more or less) stick to the rules of society. Ps only compete (or parasitize) and they break any rule they think they can get away with, whilst trying to appear to stick by the rules. I think theres a continuum of selfishness/altruism, not a sudden break point between the two. Most people have a bit of both. The majority are somewhere near the middle of the spectrum.

I think there are some 'psychopathic tendencies' in most men. Unpleasant character traits. Hare scores himself at 3 to 4 on his chechlist. I score myself 5 to 7 (very hard to be honest in self assesment!) I can see a few unpleasant psychopathic traits in myself (no Im not letting on which!) but I think'm pretty certain I'm not a psychopath (You'll just have to take my word for that! Dianne is good at spotting them - I'm sure I'd have been barred by now ;-))
Further up the p spectrum I would expect anybody with a score of over 15 to be the sort of person I would want to avoid. HM Prison service uses a score of 25 on the PCL-R to define a psychopath - you dont have to be quite so psychopathic in the UK to qualify as a psychopath! In North America a score of 30 is used. So we can see that even using the same measuring techniques, the definition is. to an extent, culturally defined.

In reply to:

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I'm up for starting a thread on this topic too if you are. We can ask Dianne to move it.

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I'm not that bothered. Carry on if you think it would be useful.

JAM

Hi JAM,

Explained in that manner I would tend to agree. I would only say that if one could have tendencies, which would vary as you pointed out, then the psychopath would have tendencies to varied levels of the his "illness".

Hope your weekend is a pleasant one.

Regards,
MCN

In reply to:

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I would only say that if one could have tendencies, which would vary as you pointed out, then the psychopath would have tendencies to varied levels of the his "illness".

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Sorry MCN... I cant understand this statement. COuld you unpack it a bit?

In reply to:

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Hope your weekend is a pleasant one.

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Likely to be tedious. Next Mondoay should be interesting, though. Visiting my friend who is divorcing her P husband of 16 years...

Have a good one yourself

JAM

Hi JAM,

Hey, I LIKE that phrase "unpack" it!! That a British one??

I think we have pretty much the same frame of mind with a slightly different perspective. I believe you either are a psychopath or you are not. You are using a scale to determine how much of a P one is or isn't. And I go along with that. So, basically you're saying once one reaches a certain level on the scale one would become pretty much certifiable. I go along with that too. But if certifiable is X and one is say two points above X and another is five points above X I would think this would indicate a greater severity in the one who is five points over opposed to the one who is two points over. This was my thinking on "tendencies" thing. I hope I make myself a bit clearer. It was pretty scrambled, I admit.

This makes me think that the "more intelligent" (non criminal) may possibly be a little lower on the scale, but still "certifiable". And, what brought this all on was Sylvie's observation that some psychopath's do seem to realize that they are different and incapable of controling their behavior.

Hmm, if you are going to visit your friend with the P husband, I'm sure she will have tales that will make up for the "tedious" weekend. Just stay safe. I hope he is not lurking about and causing trouble. "Drop in" during the weekend if you get a chance. I'm "rained" in here. I was sorta disappointed when you declined a new topic, but I think you're right. I don't think we could go too far with it. Course, you could always become a part of the mud wrestling team, but we'll have to come up with a new name for it then.

I'll be looking for the opportunity to use that new phrase now.

Have a good one!

Cheers,
MCN

Hi MCN,

I laughed at the comment about your daughter. And yes, I seem to recall having been called stubborn a few times in my life (ok - more than a few). P-ex used to tell me I would make a good lawyer. I took it for the back-handed compliment that it was.

About being on the mud wrestling team, if you saw me you would disinvite me in a hurry! LOL. I was very stressed out last year and lost a lot of weight as a result (didn't have much to begin with). So I resemble something closer to an elf but I've slowly been trying to put it back on now. Can't say I'm complaining about it though, with my sweeth tooth it works for me.

I know what you're saying about child abuse nowadays. If anything, the authorities sometimes overreact. I guess they are difficult situations to deal with anyway. That's something I cannot comprehend, that people can turn on their own, especially repeatedly. It just seems so unnatural.

Interesting that you noticed the whole mirror bit too. Something else about Ps and I think it's been mentioned on this board before, is their strange syntax. I first noticed it with the P (or APD) relative - especially in an argument his logic and the way he expressed himself just seemed bizarre. I also noticed it with P-ex at times - he would word things in the strangest way. I suppose it must be because the same part of the brain (that's somehow affected in Ps) governs that area too. Believe, I've read something to that effect.

You mentioned the loss of time and money. The loss of time actually never bothered me regarding my relationship with P-ex. Perhaps it's because I felt we had good times too and I've never really felt compelled to "settle down" by a certain deadline (or settle for the wrong person). Thankfully! However, the time I've lost because of the P-boss situation has bothered me a great deal. I suppose because I felt I was thriving after I broke up with P-ex so it didn't even occur to me that I would be bogged down in P quicksand again. As well, because it has affected my professional life and that always has personal implications. Think it has taken me longer to make much headway this time because I've been dealing with the APD relatives (husband and wife) at the same time, sort of boxed between the two situations. Ps are very quickly to recognize vulnerabilities and pounce on them. That's why they always try to gather personal information early on so that they can exploit it. That's something else women (or men) need to be guarded about.

I don't deal with P-boss on a daily basis anymore - he's a former boss - it's more that I'm dealing with the fallout of their actions. Someone pointed out that it's not entirely bad having a P-boss in that they set the bar high. I agree with that part of it. However, what's unsettling is you need to constantly be vigilant that you don't cross them and I wasn't prepared to be complicit in his wrongdoing - being a P, he just expected it - other people's sense of ethics doesn't really factor into their considerations.

I think I will respond to your other post separately otherwise this one will be too long.

Cheers for now,

Sylvie

Hey Sylvie,

Before you discount that "backhanded" compliment, I got the same one one time from an English professor in college. His compliment was written on an assignment I had turned in for a grade. It was returned to me with a high grade and written on my paper it said, "You have a clear and concise mind. Have you ever considered becoming an attorney?"

Size doesn't matter for the "wrestling team", only tenacity. We shan't allow you to escape so easily.

Yes, I noticed the word syntax as well. I figured it was their (P's) attempt to "put into their own words" something they learned. My P was very good tho'. Very intelligent, adept and clever. The majority of the time his "trip-ups" were minor and almost undetectable unless you were clued in. However, yes sometimes their syntax makes you go, "huh?" I believe the professionals are still at work on this with regard to how the P brain works as opposed to our brains. Must be rather exciting and interesting work, if you can get it.

I had much to occupy my time when I split with my P. I just don't like to waste time. And he was just that, a waste of time. I'm on no deadline either as I have already raised a family and done many of those things. I do understand your perspective however. It is a very positive outlook on the situation.

P's most definately will pounce on a vulnerablity, but so will many people if you allow them to. A vulnerability has to be tempered with strength as well. Otherwise, it is merely a weakness.

Hope your weekend is going well.

Cheers,
MCN

Hi

Some wrestling team we are turning out to be-I didn’t like to say anything but now you have “come clean” so will I. I’m 5 foot nothing and weigh the same as the luggage allowance on an aeroplane but in my defence I give a nasty bite.

Mirrors and syntax….I have experienced both. The mirror thing has been going on with this P child (now 13) for years but the bizarre thing is he only concentrates on certain aspects of his appearance. He “needs” to look cool I would presume for his self esteem but forgets he has grown out of his trousers and he is wearing school uniform socks. Soooo uncool! Laziness also plays a part because if it’s pointed out to him he gets really annoyed but can’t be bothered to change.

Syntax- I sometimes wonder if he has heard the question right because the answers appear to have nothing to do with the question. The answer seems so disordered but I was wondering if it is because he doesn’t want to give the expected answer. I often have to ask the same thing 3 or 4 times before I get any sense.

As MCN said you don’t wake up one morning a fully grown adult and neither does a P wake up at 21 with a personality disorder.

I would like to see more research on children who appear to be going down this route. I don’t think there is much hope of change but at least others would be more aware and can put some damage limitation methods in place.
In the UK we have this ridiculous attitude that we shouldn’t “label” children but without that label there is no help available. It could be that there is very little experience in psychopathy in children therefore it’s best not to identify it.
We are storing trouble for the future and others will suffer when they fall victim, I’m here saying “this child is bad” but nobody is listening.

Anyway-I’m off to buy a new swimsuit – mud coloured I think!

Jan

Hi MCN,

That's great that your professor said that. The lawyer comment amused me more than anything (probably should have used a smiley). Things like that just rolled off my back (as they should I think) - it's more the lying, mind games and especially the possessiveness that drove me nuts. In fact, if there's any legacy that P left it has to do with how possessive and needy he was. I am extremely claustrophobic now! Any signs of someone being too intense in that way and I feel like hightailing it out of there. Probably have to work on that myself.

Hey, I thought I was off the hook as far as the wrestling team - lol.

I personally would never want to work with or study Ps (as a profession anyway). It just seems like they suck the oxygen out of any room they're in. Think you used the phrase "emotional vampire" elsewhere, in a different context. That's the way they seem to me. Having said that, I'm glad there are people like Hare who have made it their life's work to study Ps. More strength to him!

Couldn't agree more, that Ps totally are a waste of time, so to the extent they can avoided, better to do that.

"A vulnerability has to be tempered with strength as well."

Agreed. Think that's part of the challenge. Just pointing out yet another subtle P tactic. Most people are fairly guileless in general when they get into relationships with Ps and don't necessarily see their tactics for what they are so they find themselves blindsided.

You mentioned narcissism in another post. I too have read that it's sort of a subset of psychopathy. Again, there seem to be different nuances in how it manifests itself. In P-ex it was definitely there in terms of looks, sort of a personal vanity. Didn't notice that in the others really. However, all four of them are narcissistic in that they are very materialistic and acquisitive as a show of power and status. When P took off his suit jacket he would usually place it inside-out so that people could see the label - gag! (There's another "wtf was I thinking?" moment!) I like good things too, no doubt, but not to be showy. Just to enjoy them. They're also narcissistic, in that they are always incredibly self serving and exploitative. It does get mind boggling trying to sift through all the definitions and variations. Whew!

My weekend is going fine - just gearing up for the coming week. Hope you're having a good one.

Regards,

Sylvie

Hi Jan,

"Some wrestling team we are turning out to be."

LOL. I know! Since we're talking about height, I'm actually 5'6" which is why I'm kinda spindly right now . About the nasty bite - funny you should mention that - I've become feisty enough that I've had to bite my tongue several times (or sometimes probably should have! lol). I have to watch myself on that one.

So you've notice the mirror fixation as well. That's interesting. Yes, "disordered" is the right word for their speech at times. Sort of like fuzzy logic.

I agree that personality disorders probably show themselves very early. It's too bad that the system is reluctant to label children in the UK. On the one hand I can understand a reluctance to do that but it seems like there must be some "happy" medium so that they don't allow these behaviours to go completely unchecked. It's a scary thought actually.

That's a tough situation you're in and I wish you well in dealing with it.

Regards,
Sylvie

Hey Jan & Sylvie:

Ahahahahhaha, I’ve got a whole whopping ¾” on you Jan! Nieder, nieder, nieder! JAM has missed out on half of all this. But whadda expect, he’s just a man. Not paying us any attention tsk, tsk. Oh geez, am I ever surprised! Soooo, typical. (Just razzin’ yah, JAM).

The sad thing is our “legal” people don’t want to put a label on our children. They don’t want them to be “stigmatized”. However, reality proves something different. I was on my “soapbox” a week ago cuz I was all hacked off at people tending to blame “parenting, or lack of” on these kids that are out of control. A big mindf*** IMO. Mummy will take the brunt of that one. Sound familiar?

This tiptoeing around the problem happens here in the US as well. Look at all the garbage the kids here pull off, Columbine, etc. The only difference I can see here is that we (US) will diagnose a psychopath one year earlier than in the UK. Big deal. Kids don’t wake up at 17 (or say oops, I’m a Brit so I must wait till I’m 18 to be a P) and “become” a psychopath. I’m beginning to wonder if P’s aren’t running the show worldwide at this point. And everyone else stands around scratching their heads, saying, “what happened?” So the other problem is getting people to LISTEN. The only thing I can figure is that enough people haven’t been hurt/maimed, robbed, cheated, etc. yet for the “unaware” to get the connection. Geez, look at the USA and what’s going on here. Not all of us yanks are as stupid as we are made out to be. A lot of us don’t like what’s going on here, but we are drowned out or silenced by the psycho powers that be.

The only place I can think to start is by getting the media to start interviewing some of the parents who are willing to speak up about their experience.

Guess it’s gonna be up to us feisty, biting little mud wrestlers to get this info out there. Maybe do “our” show with half of the proceeds going to fund research and media attention in this area.

Did you find your swimsuit, Jan?

Cheers,
MCN

Hi MCN

I wasan't being totally honest, I'm actually 5ft and !/2 inch ....so what's a 1/4 between friends? As for the "cossie! (English xpression for swimsuit) mud colour is not this seasons colour. I'll have to go for the cut-offs.

Tomorrow I will address the things you mentioned because it's very relevant. It's 11.30 pm here and I must sleep. I'm learning to sleep well again because I now I can speak to friends through the forum which relievs do much stress. I haven't felt so comfortable in ages.

Maybe that's what we should do-fund research -I'm serious about that becasue we have first hand knowledge but how we could go about it I haven't a clue.

We have the strength of being "woldwide" victims-although I don't like the word victim, I think we should keep calling ourselves observers and educators.

Goodnight folks
Jan

Hey - "More Cautious Now"

Your story is fascinating. I have to say that I've done a little reading on mental illnesses - but this is my first encounter with information on "psychopaths" or "sociopaths"

My observation is that you really handled that situation surprisingly well when you were at breakfast confronting him - because at the time you really didn't know what you were dealing with. way to go!

- I am interested in this topic because I think that one of my clients may be a psychopath. Hard to say (I don't have a degree in psych. just a real interest in it)

anyway - he's good-looking, charming, ivy-league educated - very good vocabulary and amazing self-assurance... and yet he's aggressive, and talks like things are a done deal, like the way he wants it is the way it is. when I told him that the way he wants it is not going to happen - he pulled a 360 on the old charm and told me I was unprofessional and immature. and then asked for the deal again - like he just couldn't believe I wasn't going to give it to him. Really unbelievable! I've never met anyone like this. so - I 'm just arming myself with information so that I can communicate effectively with him...

this is strictly business - but I also kind of feel that when I first met him he was 'flirting' with me... which is like him setting the scene. he was totally trying to charm me. (and he did! ) briefly... now it makes my stomach flip if I see his number on my phone.

I have had an upclose and personal experience with a dear loved one who was in a psychotic state and I can see how unstable a situation can get. I do not want to aggravate anyone unnecessarily.

anyway- good job dealing with your predicament. and good job recovering and bouncing back and not getting hung up on him!!

Hi JP,

Welcome to the forum. You may find my story facinating, but I could have done without it. Tho' I understand what you are saying.

I would advise caution in dealing with this person of whom you speak. I would check out some of the other stories here as well, especially on dealing with a "corporate" psychopath.

In your fourth paragraph description it sounds as tho' you may have a psychopath on your hands. I am not a professional so I cannot comfirm your suspicions and a professional would have to spend some clinical time in order to make a "positive" diagnosis.

However, it is my personal opinion that the best book on the subject is Dr. Robert Hare's book, "Without Conscience." It is a relatively quick read and written in laymen's terms.

If this client is a psychopath, I advise extreme caution. One should never underestimate them. I believe them to be capable of anything. Nothing is too low or unthinkable for them. Your own personal safety may be at risk.

I also would advise you to pay close attention to your "inner voice" intuition, gut feelings, however you wish to term it. I honestly believe our subconscious picks up on things we may not immediately be aware of. That you find yourself here, that you have raised the question in your own mind is a "red flag" in itself.

Thanks for taking the time to share with me and the forum.

Good luck.
MCN

Hi Jan,

1/4"!! Geez, Jan, all one of us has to do is make our hair a little higher than the other's and we'll appear taller than the other or wear a half inch higher heel! A "cossie" huh? Haven't heard that one either. How'd did you Brits come up with that one?

I'm glad you are more comfortable these days. You are living with a "high stress" situation and I empathize with you. And, you don't "sound" so frantic and frustrated as before. This is a good place for you to let off steam and talk things over with others who know and understand what you are talking about. Plus, it's nice to get to know people. I feel like we're friends and even wondering to myself if I will someday have the opportunity and pleasure of meeting a few of you.

I'm with you on the "victim" word. Over used and over rated. Once you resolve the situation or take control of it, you cease to be a "victim".

It would be nice to be able to raise funds or assist in some way in the "research", but I haven't a clue as to how to go about it either.

I like to think that in some small way we do have a part with the assistance of this forum.

Shall look forward to hearing from you tomorrow. (You're getting up and I'm going to bed and visa versa!)

Hope your day goes well, and have a great Morning!

Best regards,
MCN

Hi MCN and all

Well it seems summer is on it’s way here in the UK-AT LAST and that is helping to lift my mood as well as discovering that there is more research into young Ps than I thought.

I found a web site www.ingentaconnect.com and there are loads of useful pieces of info, the only downside is you have to pay for the full article but at least we can find out what research has been done and by whom.
I have also sent Di some articles from The Times newspaper and BBC TV which highlight young offenders and P issues, they are in the resources section. So it’s looks as though more attention is going to be paid to the problem and awareness is what we are all banging on about. None of us are professionals at this ….although I think we are becoming that way…..and the reluctance to address and label people may become a thing of the past.

I know we won’t eradicate P’s from society but we need to become more expert in spotting them before we get in too deep.

I worked for a P and the minute I met him I knew he was “different” but I didn’t have to relate to him on a personal level so was able to keep a mental distance from him. He was the typical corporate P and had many successful businesses. The one I worked for was a new enterprise and I could appreciate the effort he was putting in to make it successful BUT that was it’s downfall, he expected blood from his staff and would fire anybody for any reason without any consideration for their efforts. He destroyed my confidence when he got rid of me. I even worked for the first 4 months on half salary to get the business off the ground because I believed if we all pulled together we could make it a success. . I even brought some big players to the company but whatever I did wasn’t t enough, he hated women and treated them like commodities.

It took me ages to get my self esteem and confidence back and once I stopped feeling used and abused I realised I had actually done a brilliant job for him. I’m not saying that to blow my own trumpet but looking at it objectively with hindsight –I did! It was him not me. I will never let that happen again. I was fortunate that I had no emotional ties to him and could put him behind me.

This is the first time I have thought of him as part of what we have been discussing on the forum he is so far behind me.

I also recognised immediately that my partners kid was “different” but again I had no involvement with him, he was just the son of a friend so didn’t really come into my thoughts.
I think we all have that ability to spot these people but we don’t always act on our instincts because we try to rationalise their behaviour. It’s only when we get involved on a more personal level and we become their targets do we listen to our instincts. By that time damage has already been done.

I know from my experience it has made me more wary of anybody but hope it won’t preclude me from making genuine relationships.

Jan

Ok, I can't seem to find an earlier post I wrote about corporate Ps so I guess I'll stick this one here.

In my opinion, we have just witnessed one get clean away with a multimillion dollar fraud. What a complete travesty of justice that someone with scads of evidence against him would be acquitted. I believe the way he manipulated the jury (along with his track record of domination, control and financial wrongdoing) is textbook P behaviour. It's like they have this uncanny ability to suss people out and hone in on factors they can exploit. In typical P fashion, he is now lashing out at the existing management and board of his former company by accusing them of wrongdoing. I remember seeing him interviewed and everything about what he said and his behaviour screamed P to me. Just cannot believe he got away with it whereas his underlings were sentenced. Scary! The other thing that sickens me about it is I think an acquittal like that just encourages other corporate Ps.

Had to vent.

Hey there Sylvie,

I believe your post was under "Psychopaths in Groups" which I originally began, but it did not get the response or interest and I suggested to Dianne that it be removed. Perhaps Dianne will be able to retrieve it for you.

Hope all is well with you.

MCN

Hi MCN,

Good to hear from you. Thanks for letting me know that. I had done a couple of key word searches and couldn't figure out why it didn't get pulled up - was puzzled about that one! lol While I seem to be one of the only posters writing about corporate Ps, there may be others lurking who have experienced that kind of thing (or will down the road) so it may be useful to have it there.

I saw that you mentioned being involved in a lawsuit. Good luck with that - those situations are usually stressful so I'm glad you have a lot of support to see you through it.

Best regards,
Sylvie

Thanks MCN!, I'll look for it later, have been out a lot the last couple of days.

Sylvie, I think we should start a Corporate Psychopath thread because it is a new and challenging area that is finally getting exposure. I'll start the thread later and put your post there.

Di

Hi Diane,

I agree it would be helpful to have a separate thread for corporate Ps - thanks for that. There must be many people who have encountered that kind of thing but maybe don't realize that they were dealing with Ps.

Regards,
Sylvie

WOW MCN,

So many parallels in our situation. My P never listened to music, only talk radio. It gave him a false arrogance that he was the know all end all on subjects discussed. He would not ever consider dancing, and adeptly dodged any question I asked regarding his feelings about any given situation. It was like his mind was racing to try to conjure up what a real person would say. He is so pathetic, and empty shell, with no sense of identity, coveting the warm, loving, caring qualities he seeks in his victims, as if by possessing a terrific partner would by osmosis make him a real individual. The more I read and see other posts, I want to hit myself in the head with a brick for not researching sooner and accepting that this parasite had nothing to offer me or anyone.

He once even told me he preferred computer games, talk radio and movies to personal interaction. Yet would mimic my own affection to keep me on the hook as long as possible. And initially put on quite a performance to quell my early doubts as to his sincerity.

Another observation, he has absolutely no friends. He has work aquiantences, but absolutely no one to share & interact with in a normal basis. And while my intention when I did start researching was solely to help him.... I realized I was sucked in deep to a demonic quicksand. The more I stood up for myself, the worse the abuse got. P's absolutely cannot handle having a miror held up to their actions and behaviors, and relentlessly blame any and every thing for circumstances.

Another quality was his secretiveness. I am a very open, honestperon and really do not have anything to hide from anyone when I am in a relationship. He has multiple identies, unlisted number, many internet identities and constantly was on the look out for his next victim. It is so pathetic... I cannot imagine the only avenue to self worth being the ability to "conquer" an innocent, unsuspecting woman.

I know in the last heated exchange we had, I asked him exactly how it made him feel better to abuse & betray any & every woman in his life. The question was met with a click of the phone being hung up, his reaction to any questions like that.

I really do hope that all of us sharing our experiences helps to professionally define and maybe help these parasites. I would be a pity to learn all of our pain & suffering has been for nothing!

StunnedHun23

Hi Stunned,

I want to answer you more thoroughly, but cannot at this time due to other demands on my time. I have "quickly" scanned posts here just to keep up. I have read your other posts as well.

Briefly, I will say to you keep up your courage. Things will get better. But you must stay away from this person. Resist the urge to even call him just to blast him. It only makes you "feel good" for a short time and does nothing to allow healing. Think of it as allowing negative energy in. You need positive energy now. P's are nothing but negative energy. You have much more to deal with, your health and getting your life back in order. You are not the first to have her life devastated by a P and unfortunately you will not be the last. Seems that you have had to pay a very high price for your "lesson". But with the knowledge you have earned, you will be able to protect yourself in the future. Keep your focus on "healing" and turn this negative into a positive.

With kindness,
MCN

Hi Jan and Everyone,

Been tied up with many "headaches" which will be continuing for awhile longer.

Congratulations, Jan, on your moderator status.


"I think we all have that ability to spot these people but we don’t always act on our instincts because we try to rationalise their behaviour. It’s only when we get involved on a more personal level and we become their targets do we listen to our instincts. By that time damage has already been done."

I think you nailed this one. But, as they say, experience is the best teacher. Once one understands what a P is all about, we learn to pay more attention to "our instincts" and are more "wary" of those with the characteristics. Those P "innocuations" are quite expensive, indeed! They're like taxes, you pay for them for forever!!

Hope everyone is doing well and enjoying the summer.

MCN

Hi MCN

So good to hear from you. And I thought it was the wrestling that was taking up your time!

I wish you well with your legal battle, I thought I would know by now whaich way mine is going but I still haven't heard from the "opposition". It HAS to be any day now. The stress of hanging around waiting for news is causing me to lose sleep that I desperatley need. I've been ill again and I'm sure it's because my immune system is affected by all this and the FP. Speaking of which....he finishes school a week today and that is playing on my mind.

I'm still hoping my partner will send him to his mother, he said he would so keep everything crossed.

Thanks for the congratualtions, I have been working on information for Dr Essi Viding which I have been sharing with Di. She wants to know all about my experiences for her research-isn't that great? All this grief might be utilised in a positive way.

I will keep you updated when she gets back to me next week, it will take her that long to digest all the stuff I've sent her and there is more to come.

I look forward to hearing good news from you.

Regards
Jan

Hi MCN,

Nice to hear from you. Those legal situations seem to drag out for a while which probably works out for the laywers but is draining for everyone else. Wish you the best with it. Hope you are still managing to get some enjoyment out of the summer.

Best regards
Sylvie