After emerging from the black hole of a reactive depression to the distress of having a p in my life, I finally have some morsel of good news: I saw the forensic psychologist who is evaluating me and the p to decide custody and gave her my heartfelt position against her remaining "neutral". I told her that the judge needs to be educated in the the ways of a p and that he will do nothing (like follow court orders)unless he is compelled by the judge to do so.....which means sending the bum to jail! The psychologist said that he is a p, that I would probably get custody and that the battle doesn't stop after that. She said that my p will drag on the divorce process for years and fight everything. I was overjoyed that she intimated that she will recommend me and confirmed that he really is a subhuman creature. The only bad thing that came out of this was that although she recognizes that my daughter and his son from his first marriage will be psychologically and probably physically damaged by p, there is no way that p's partental rights can be terminated or visitation limited or supervised until something actually happens. This pains me as I have to wait until my daughter is sexually abuse before I can attempt to protect her from her father. No wonder women kill their spouses or abduct the kids to another country. I cannot fathom fighting this man for the next few years as the legal bills are a suffocating avalanche.

Thanks to all for your kind words of hope. I have reread it many times to try to climb out of the abyss and you have really strengthened me (that and a lot of antidepressants)I am not sure I am going to be able to fight this guy without having to live on the street penniless so I ask, is it worth it to spend one hundred thousand dollars to get back thirty thousand just for the justice and validation I would hope to eventually get out of this ridiculous judge?

Hi survivor, thanks for the update, sadly. I am glad to hear that you received some validation. It must be a nightmare of a situation that you are in, I am hoping for the best for you and your daughter.

survivor,

Glad your back! Been worried, wondering. Thought about you tonight at work, hoping you would post and sure enough...

As for the legal system, it bites. There are laws out the behind ranging from spitting on the sidewalk to murder and everything in between. Protection from abuse/Restraining orders can be obtained requiring the offending party to stay a certain amount of feet away from the potential victim. The social service department will investigate any allegations of child neglect, abuse, endangerment, incest, etc. Mediators can offer their services to find a middle ground for Divorce/Custody issues, prior to going back to Court. A person can pay an Attorney, make a zillion phone calls, fill out all the proper forms, file all the required legal documents. They can file Police reports until they are blue in the face. You can spend your life savings and anyone elses that will give it to you, doing what needs to be done in a Court of law, to win...to protect yourself and your children. You can make it your life's goal to continue to fight each and every battle the p starts. You can follow the letter of the law and "wait" for some horrible thing to happen. Because that is what you will do. KNOW and WAIT.

All the legal documents, filings, Motions, Decree's, Court Orders in the whole wide World are not worth the paper they are typed on when dealing with a p. You are dealing with someone who has no respect, regard or appreciation of the law to begin with. To the honest person, all those legal documents mean something. To the p, they mean nothing. Just another chance to show even the Court system that they do not have to follow rules, like all others do.

So, while all this leg work/legal work is being done, the p is victimizing again and again. By the time the laws are enforced (when it is brought to the attention by someone other then you, no doubt) the damage is done. P damage.

Laws are in place to only be enforced when the crime is actually committed, never when it "might" be committed. By the time the law is enforced, the crime has been done.
People are hurt, lives are shattered/ruined. The damage is done. P damage.

There was an article in our local newspaper this past week about a car accident involving a drunk driver with no drivers license due to 3 prior DUI's. The biggest concern of the whole matter seemed to be that this person was driving without a license. It was stated in the article that those who break the law by driving without a valid license are going to do it anyway, so it will be hard to enforce without setting up a spot check. They might as well have informed the public to drive without a license any time, day or night, no big deal, do not have time to enforce. Also, the matter of the 3 prior DUI convictions for this guy seemed to not even be the point! Reminds me of going to the Post Office and seeing the mugs of the 10 most wanted. I ask myself, "why didn't they just keep them when they took the picture?"

Yes, laws are useless. By the time they are needed its over for the victim. The general opinion seems to be that the Police, defense attorney's, etc. do "not have enough staff, resources, hours in a day" to enforce laws already in place.

Our legal justice system should just put out a brochure stating which laws can be broken that will go unpunished entirely (which is most all), and which ones may go punished i.e. Murder and only if the victim testifies (think about that happening!).

If funds were cut back to all those people in our good State(s) that are elected to make/amend/strike laws, maybe there would be a mountain of money available to enforce those already on the books. But no! That would put the law makers out of work.

As for spending 100,000 to recoup maybe 30,000, that is your decision. Ultimately, with a p, the best I feel a person can hope for is that God has the staff/resources to punish according to the crime. Unfortunately many victims will suffer tremendous emotional, physical and financial hardship in the interim.

Those of us who try to fight the p through proper channels, legally, will pay a high price to do so. Is your childs welfare worth it? Yes. Will it be easy? No, never. How sickening for you to have to wait for her to be hurt in any way, before you can legally protect her. How pathetic it is that you must spend all you have and more to do it. You have someone saying, yes, he is a p, but no, the crime has not happened yet.

At best, maybe the p will mess up in another way and be jailed before the mess up includes your child, but that is a sorry way to have to look at it. A "wait and see" if the p goes to jail for that, or this, or worse yet, at all.

I would not want to be in your position. You have some very hard work ahead of you and must be strong to do it. After a p, inward strength is not our strong suit. I suggest you speak with your child following every single visit with the p. Watch for the signs of incest. Believe everything your child tells you. Act on any suspicion or fact immediately.

As for running off with your child to another Country i.e. understanding why some do that, you probably would not because you have a conscience. The p does not. That is why they are habitual law-breakers. Law abiding people also sometimes want to throw caution to the wind and do what goes against law and their conscience. They do not. That nasty little thing called a conscience stops us everytime. That is why the majority of those in prison are psychopaths. We're not there and its darn obvious why....conscience.

A psychopath takes all you have to give, then causes you to have to give more than you can take.

p.s. To cherie, I know I wrote almost the opposite about custody issues to you, but your situation is not the same, if I remember correctly. Also, I did tell you that you would have to be very strong to fight the battles that may come. I write this strongly to survivor, because at this point in my life, I really feel deeply that laws are useless.

good luck, survivor (and cherie)
I do wish you both a victory in all that comes your way,

Laura

Survivor {{{HUGS}}}}!!!!!! I am sooooo happy and relieved that you're back! I've though about you every day and prayed that you were ok and YOU ARE!!!! And your sweet little girl. I hope shes's doing fine as well. Its no wonder that you went into depression. Anyone would considering your circumstances. I'm glad you sought out help that way and its working.

The fact that you got validated by the forensic psychologist. The more expert witnesses you have on your side the better for your case (as I'm sure you already know).

Survivor, I had custody issues with my children and the P. He tried to play "Mr. Mom" to the hilt! To influence the teachers, judge, everyone. I won't go into all the gory details of how I FINALLY managed to get primary custody of my children. And there is NO court ordered visitation for them. Its up to them. But they are older children and could also speak for themselves. The thing is, I believe that no P should ever have custody of children. And yes, the legal system does not always mean the justice system. I am still involved in litigation and the costs are astounding.

I guess I believe that its worth it to fight for your daughter because if he has sanctions placed on him by the law, even if he doesn't obey them for awhile, he will build up a track record and he will eventually be caught. It might take awhile. But just because he's a P doesn't mean that we should throw our hands in the air and give up. Not at all. Survivor, you can only do what you can do. I've chosen to fight certain battles with the P because I have to. Try to get the best attorney that you can (I went through 5 attornies). One who is very smart and who sees the P for what he is. A good therapist is necessary to help you strategize in times of stress. There is a site that helped me. Its's called:

THE TAO of DIVORCE: A Woman's Guide to Winning.http://users.primushost.com/~tao/concept-preface.html This is an excellent resource and helped me a lot. In fact I need to look at it again.

Yes, its really a challenge to do this divorcing a P, and with children ( and in your case, a baby!). It can be done. Have faith in your ability and strength. Its really hard, but you WILL get through it and keep your baby safe.
And when you get discouraged reach out to those who will support you, validate you, and keep you going. If this forum validates you, then come here as often as you need and want to.

Hope this helps,
Cherie

survivor, I am so very relieved to hear from you, again. And I am elated to hear that your forensic psychologist finally sees what you know.

I can't offer any opinions on the legal battles. I have never been to court, in my life, except for a speeding ticket. But you seem to be getting some good advice.

The important thing is, something has turned, in your favor, and your child's favor. It may be a small thing (compared say, to getting a reasonable ruling from the judge), but right now, it means the world to you. It represents hope. And it heralds hope. Small things are often the beginning of bigger things.

((survivor)) I'm happy and hopeful for you, kris

Thank you all for your support. I have read and reread your replies a dozen times and it gives me hope. Cherie, you are so right when you say that the legal system does not mean the justice system. I wish that my husband's visitation "rights" would be superceded by my child's right to have a nontortured existence without the p....

I will get custody of my daughter but we haven't even gone to trial and I have 70K in legal fees because the p is fighting everything with appeals and whatnot. Since the judge does nothing but drag her feet we spend more time in court and costly motions. I pray for his death every day.Some days I just want to hand over the kid and say take her you pig just leave me alone and never contact me again (fantasy that by just giving the bully the candy that he wants that he'll actually leave me alone). The fact is that I am tied up with this jerk and need the benefit of your experiences about how to get through it through the long haul. Feeling very afraid for my daughter, especially when Kris said that her daughter was damaged by the p on another post. Kris, how is that you avoided the costly legal bs? Did your p decide to leave you the house and some meager money to live on? Does he have some "decency"?
Laura, thank you for your insightful commentary. You are right on the mark.....

Survivor,
I too am so glad you are OK. Although I had not been posting frequently, I had read your story and when you left was very concerned for your health and well being. My personal experience was with a particularly dangerous and violent psychopath and I remember how cautious and afraid and how very very depressed I was on top of all the wonderful things that go along with PTSD. There were many days I just felt like giving up, but I knew it was important for me to persevere since I have two children that needed love and stability. I salute you for your bravery Survivor. You are modeling strength, fortitude and perseverence to your daughter and someday these lessons will be valuable for her.

Do you have an excellent attorney that can advise you on how best to proceed to minimize the financial impact, while insuring sole custody of your daughter? I did not marry my Psychopath, but went through hell just separating from him. I lost money too. My heart goes out to you Survivor. Antidepressants helped me too, as well as finding this forum and reading about the experiences of others. I tried to deal with things a day at a time. When I started thinking about the future, I felt overwhelmed and scared. I had a therapist early on who suggested that I prioritize things I had to do, and slowly do one thing at a time. I'm still doing that now, albeit imperfectly.

(((Survivor)))

Neverthesame

Neverthesame, thanks for your kind words.
In answer to your question about the attorney, I have an excellent attorney but to me the attorney participates in the soul and pocketbook rape. For good representation I have to sell my entire future earnings because I will be in debt for at least a decade or more.
I do feel like giving up as there is no end with a p but on those days I hug my daughter close and hope that she will be less damaged than I fear. How did you protect your children? Sometimes I think that I would have been better off if I didn't marry him but I guess your story could help me see that with a p it doesn't make any difference: they are equal opportunity torturers regardless if you are legally bound. I just think it would've been cheaper if we didn't have this divorce sh-- to go through.

Laura,

You said: You can spend your life savings and anyone elses that will give it to you, doing what needs to be done in a Court of law, to win...to protect yourself and your children.

This is so true and is draining the finances of my elderly parents after I have exhausted mine.

All the legal documents, filings, Motions, Decree's, Court Orders in the whole wide World are not worth the paper they are typed on when dealing with a p

Boy, have I found this to be true! What an understatement.

The damage is done. P damage

This is so true. P damage almost sounds like a good song title.....

A psychopath takes all you have to give, then causes you to have to give more than you can take.

Very wise observation.

You sound like you are on the mend from your p. Good job!

survivor

survivor,

Yes, a psychopath song, good idea. The p would hear it, love it, because they would think it applied to their previous victim, which of course is the reason so much p damage had to be done. Lol! If there had not already been a movie by the same name, or has there?, we could write one and call it "Clueless".

Seriously though, when I filed Divorce, 4 days after the abandonment, which, now that I think of it has nothing to do with what I'm going to say....anyway, when the Divorce was final on November 1, 2001, 5 months after filing, I asked the Attorney how to enforce the financial aspects of it. He laughed (not at me, at the situation). He said, "this S.O.B. (yes actually said that!) doesn't pay anyone what he owes them, do you think he's going to pay you, even if you find him and serve him?" "You will never see a dime from this loser." Funny, he described my Divorce in the same way my marriage could have been described. His description of the p was accurate also. So, I call private detectives. They tell me to wait, he will develop a paper trail. Wait as long as I can, then hire a P.I. So I wait 11 months. Hire a P.I. She finds out real interesting stuff, none to help find him, but interesting none the less. I wrote of this to BonnyR or operalover on the old forums.

She finds that he used an address he actually lived at 7 years after we married! An address in another town, one he had not lived at for 7 years. Well, he lies, had a secret life the whole marriage. It appeared I must say, that he was living with me in this City the whole time. But with the p, things are not always what they seem. Personally, I think he used it to buy things/pawn them, his favorite pastime, and knew that when the bill came for the goods, they would have to travel 7 years into the future to find him. Smart guy the p. Of course, I do not know how the P.I. obtains their information, I will assume archived credit header files, police records? maybe, I just don't know. She even had the exact date he used the address.

Also, as I've stated before, she found him at AURM 6 01 and AURM 07 01, two months after the abandonment, in this City. Trouble is, there is no such addresses in this City like that. Of course it does not take Einstein to figure out that "AURM 6 01" means "abandoned you raving maniac June 1, 2001". Yes, he planned ahead, huh? Even had the guts, if you can call it that, to USE the bogus address so that it would be reported that way, knowing full well I would continue to look for him to serve him the Divorce papers. But thats okay, cause he made me the raving maniac he thinks I am, so maybe his gigantic ego is proud of that? Like I say about ex husbands, "they didn't marry a B---h, but they turned me into one!" I mean, why would they marry a B? I can see it now, telling all their friends and family, "she's such a B---h, really, I think I'll marry that gal!" Lol!

I read these posts of horrible abuse. Violence, hitting, beating, poisioning, incest, and on and on. Horrible stuff that humans have suffered at the hands of a p. Anyway, I was fortunate that mine only probably tried to kill me the night before he left, pizza thing, never laid one hand on me or called me one bad name the entire 8 years. Well, he did yell at me "YOU CLEAN TOO MUCH!" the week he left. Took me by surprise, yes you could eat off my floors, its a bad habit of mine, cleaning, but I rambled something about "it gets my mind off my problems", and he stormed out of the room. Had I known he was going to say that, I would have screamed at him, "YOU LIE TOO MUCH!". Oh well, rather have a clean house than a lying mouth. Hope his next victim is a slob.

Getting off the track again...what I meant to say was sometimes I wonder if my p was a p or just insane. As p's are not classified as legally insane, maybe THAT is what he is? Are all p's violent? Do they all hit/beat/torture physically? I think the answer is no, they do not. Which also makes me wonder if my p is the sickest of all in the head? Since he had no real outward signs i.e. bruises on me, yelling matches for the neighbors to hear, etc. yet has ALL the p traits, plus some, that is so SCARY.

My children's father told me once that "it is the quiet one's you must fear, because you do not know what they are thinking." I realize that there is much fear in being beat, hit, chased, everything the violent p's do. Not to be the least bit insensative to their victims plight, but it seems that it is "out there", the p stuff, the abuse. Right out in the open. My ex p is very subdued, quiet, outwardly calm, charming, talks quiet, sleeps quiet, walks quiet, moves quiet, like I said before, the Pink Panther. Very, very sneaky, always leading two lives the whole time. He even admitted to being one man at home, another when he walked out the door. Trouble was his alter ego affected me tremendously when his good ego came home. Good at leading two lives, lousy at keeping them from crossing over into each other.

On the mend? I wish. I guess you could say I am, as what choice do I have. He's gone. I really don't know how I will ever get over being duped, conned, hoodwinked, used, lied to, emotionally raped, manipulated, mind games played, cheated on (although he would deny), financially ruined, etc.

I just know that when my friend told the p 12 years ago that I was too good for him, that he should not even try to date me or know me, that it lit a fire under his behind to prove that guy wrong. Sad part is, my friend could have told me the same thing i.e you are too good for him, don't date him or get to know him, and I would have listened. But I didn't ask about the p. Could have cared less, he was a loner, BAD rotten teeth (now wearing $1200 set of dentures my folks sprang for years ago), boring conversationalist, childish, cheap, conceited. Took him 3 years of practice on other victims, women and men, to polish his p skills and present an image that would cause me to overlook the above loser traits.

I read that Ted Bundy was shunned by a woman and he spent 2 years convincing her to love him. She did. He dumped her like yesterday's news. Why? To get even. He said so. To SHUN her. That is what my p did. Spent 8 years "getting even" with my friend, who as it turns out stayed in our lives during the whole marriage.

Again, mending? Numb is more like it. I take one day at a time, and sometimes that day seems like a month. Mostly the anger eats me alive, the financial loss is no picnic. I fantasize about what I would have spent my tax refund on, had I received one dime of it. $1400 gone that I worked all last year for. The p knew that would happen. Again, the one easiest to find.

I hold on to the hope that everything that goes around comes around. In fact, I know it does. It may not be the same punishment that was inflicted upon us by the p, but it will be something that will hurt them horribly. When I divorced my children's father, (not the p), he was terribly hurt. I gave him the house and physical custody of the two oldest (AFTER asking all 3 children what they wanted at the time). The two oldest wanted to have their "room", stay in the home. That was fine, it was joint custody and they were back and forth until they grew up. Anyway, I did not feel real bad about hurting him, because I was FREE. I thought my life would skyrocket now, all that I deserved that was good would now be mine. Wrong. I met Mr. Wonderful, (again not the p), got engaged, got abandoned while I was at work 2 years after he moved in. That guy left a note though and I knew exactly why he left. He picked beer over me. My fault for giving him the choice? He was under no legal obligation to even leave a note, we never married. The p knew I had been "abandoned", and swore "I will never do that to you. That was a terrible thing to do, you did not deserve it." After the first two abandonments by the p, I reminded him of what he said, and stressed the fact that what he meant by "never do that to you" was LEAVE A NOTE!, but of course, silly me thought he meant "never abandon me."

Anyway, I went from an alcoholic, to a wonderful man that I was in too big a hurry to get remarried to wait on, to a psychopath. So me hurting my childrens father, ultimately hurt me. I suffered far greater pain, depression, financial loss since divorcing him then ever would have happened had I stayed married to him.

Whoever said "The grass is always greener" was looking at artificial turf!

Take care, will be speaking again soon for sure. (Until my computer crashes, anyway.)

Laura