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#4221 - 05/28/05 01:47 PM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hey there Jan,

I envy you being where you are. Sounds like fun to run off to a pub. If I had to narrow it down to three countries to visit, it would be Ireland, England and France.

Glad to hear you will get a reprieve from Mr. Cutie. Makes things a little easier.

It sounds as though this is an only child for your partner. That’s so sad. I’m sure it will take a bit of time for him to become resigned to the fact of his son’s problem and I know I don’t have to explain it to you, as you are a parent yourself. I know you wish to be vindicated as well.

It sounds like Mr. Cutie is in a p type of adolescent stage. Developmentally, he is already behind, but being a p, he has yet to sort out how to “get what he wants,” so his frustration point will be reached easier and frequently. Being in a boarding school may actually be a good thing, for now. Sort of limits his p “learning”. His friends finding him strange will probably happen with more and more frequency too. Very interesting. So is the face making you describe. It makes me wonder if in the P brain as they observe us in "relaxed" conversations with others if this is how they see us. Our faces expressing wide ranges of emotions. To them it must look like a lot of contortions.?

In your shoes, I would try to read all the info I could get my hands on about p children, especially those written by clinical-type people. You may get some clues about his behavior and how to “effectively” deal with him.

I can imagine how you feel buying him a nice gift and his lack of appreciation, but he’s not just a “spoiled brat” he’s a really pathetic creature. Unfortunately, you have to deal with him for awhile longer. Yeah, I’d probably wanna smack him too!! You must have a lot of patience.

Mr. Cutie’s sleeping on top of his dirty laundry is bizarre. Makes me wonder what’s up with that behavior. I wonder how a psychologist would explain that one. I do know that p's don’t have the same aversions to “filth” as we do. I remember reading about one who said he could pick up a half-eaten apple off a public restroom floor and finish it off. UGH!!!

I also wonder how long it will be till Mr. Cutie goes a bridge too far with his gran. THAT’S gonna have major implications if/when that one happens. One you want to do your best to prepare for. Depending on how that goes down, I’m sure she’ll want to blame you if she can throw it your way. Even if it’s like, “Well, if you had spent more time with your son instead of your girlfriend….” I’m sure you get the picture. But, as you’ve noted, other people are beginning to realize what you have been saying all along. A victory, but not very sweet, is it?

You do have a good grasp on the situation and have been very astute dealing with it. At least you know that this is a story that’s not going to have a happy ending to it as far as the child is concerned.

As I said at the beginning of this, I wish I was going off to a pub for some fun, but I have to work this weekend and the real downside to that is that it is a “three-day” weekend in the states as we have a holiday.

Take care and enjoy yourself!!

Best regards,
MCN

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#4222 - 05/30/05 01:47 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

I really feel my partner is starting to accept what is going on with his kid and to be very brutal he doesn’t like him much either. There is nothing to like about him because he gives nothing, not even a smile. Relationships are a two way thing otherwise it’s just projection-we have an image of the person we would really like them to be.
I feel this comes through very strongly from the people on this forum. They are sharing their bad experiences but still haven’t yet come to terms with the person they actually have.
It is so much easier for me because I have absolutely no affection for this kid and wouldn’t care less if he disappeared. I have given myself the right to feel and say these things which lifted a huge burden and hopefully others that are suffering a P will give themselves that right too. This forum is so important to pass that message on and to know they have others supporting them through it.

The face pulling I experienced this time was just sheer anger that we made eye contact. RAD/Fledgling Ps don’t make eye contact with anyone unless they are lying and on this occasion he wasn’t lying so resented it happening-it wasn’t on his terms. He constantly pulls faces but those are very different and from what I have read are likely to be the manifestation of Tourrette’s Syndrome which is not usually the swearing syndrome people think it is. Much like people think all Ps are murderers.

I have read what limited information is available but that in itself is an issue as kids are not diagnosed so as there is no official child P there is no information. The nearest we can get is saying the kid has RAD. It is thought RAD is brought about by the lack of mother/child bonding and with a lot of help they can “learn” to attach or at least learn that it’s possible. Some kids may be able to do this eventually but some kids are just born that way (referring to the BBC article DI posted) and nothing will change them.

I think it would take something major for this kid to turn his gran against him, it seems the more he does the more she tried to cushion him. He has learned to manipulate her so well. It is her only grandchild and always will be, the son that lives with her is gay and is a narcissistic personality…..talk about genes!! The kid has it from both sides, his mother and paternal uncle. You are so right when you say she will blame me ….she already does! She won’t accept the truth and will go to her grave believing that which is another reason I have mentally ditched the kid. She lets him know she doesn’t approve of me so when he comes back from her place he is even worse than normal and feels entitled to treat me like dirt.

He is such a liar that he could be telling her anything-he has already ruined the relationship my partner had with her because she thinks I have my partner under my thumb. She went mad when she saw we had printed a list of house rules on the noticeboard. We got so fed up with repeating what was expected of him (and us too) to make life easier for us all. The rules were simple like washing and cleaning teeth every day, being polite, not leaving lights on all over the house, not leaving taps running, fridge doors wide open etc. He then knew he had her approval to disregard anything we said.
She says these things in front of him. I can’t fight her so I keep clear of her. After all she is my partners mother and he must love her even though their relationship now only consists of pleasantries. Of course she blames me for that relationship breakdown too. When he asked her to support us by being consistent with the kid she refused.

Thank goodness for the pub!

Hope you enjoy some of the holiday weekend.

Jan

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#4223 - 05/30/05 06:39 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi there Jan,

Well, granny doesn’t sound like she’s very accepting of reality. Doesn’t sound like she’d be real accepting of you without the child problem either. The problem for you is that your support system (where Mr. Cutie is concerned) is virtually nil. At least you know where it is you are being undermined. (Thank goodness for small favors, eh?)

Because we are aware that the prognosis for a little P is that he will progressively get worse with time, there WILL be a major event with gran. In a childish way, he is able to manipulate her now. As he matures, his demands will become greater. Believe it or not now, she too will reach her limit with him, because he will push her there. One future scenario, (given what you are saying now), is in his later teenage years if his penchant for lying and stealing continues and he steals from gran (possibly something she really treasures). Another: he begins to make demands on her for money, and when she refuses one time he becomes violent with her. Another: he comes to the attention of the police and is jailed and she has to bail him out one too many times. Right now, all we can do is speculate, but these are real possibilities given what we know of P’s. What you are dealing with now is gonna seem like a cakewalk in a few years.

As far as the rules you’ve had to post, anyone who is aware of the situation understands and, personally, I think it was a wise thing to do given the situation. I don’t know how far you can go with her in the situation and what is comfortable for you. If I felt I had the “authority” (meaning with your partner’s blessing), I would have calmly told her that in your home you and your partner have your own rules. She may not agree with them, but your expectation is that she respects them. (I faced a somewhat similar issue, in philosophy, with my own mother years ago when my children were little and were visiting her – we lived on two different sides of the country – my kids rang me one day crying telling me that their gran was insisting they eat some particular food. I had to get my mother on the phone and explain to her that in my home and in my child rearing practice, I did not insist my children eat certain foods they did not like. I explained to her that I didn’t like it when she did that to me as a child and that I refuse to do it to my children and that I did not support her on the issue. She expressed her disagreement, which I had already acknowledged, but, out of respect, she gave up forcing the issue. I know this is minor compared to what you are up against and that your “mother-in-law” does not respect you either.) Of course here she is not going to support you and you know it’s going to be hell for you when Mr. Cutie returns. For what good it will do, you can both inform him that his gran has her rules and you have yours. Regardless of what gran does or thinks about them, he will be expected to comply or suffer the consequences. With a P you will have to do this with all calmness and composure and together so that he is made aware there does exist a unity in this regard. Just sorta matter of fact, if you will. I think NO EMOTION tends to make them focus in a sense. (Sylvie and I were talking about boundaries and to a degree I think they work with a P.) And don't forget you have to spell out the consequences SPECIFICALLY for the P, as he cannot think this through for himself.

Yes, your partner is coming to terms with the fact that his child has some major problems, he may not LIKE his child as a person, but keep in mind that he does LOVE him. I have always reinforced this with my own children for different reasons. I may not like something they do, but I will always love them.

If it is possible, I would seek help from the professional who told you that therapy would make Mr. Cutie worse. Ask him/her for guidance in seeking a therapist/professional for you and your partner. If he/she can’t refer you, possibly maybe he/she can point you in the right direction. REMEMBER, this professional without outright stating (due to law and professional ethics he/she could not STATE the problem Mr. Cutie suffers from) did tell you he/she suspects the child is psychopathic, therefore treat the subject with that person DELICATELY. It is important here that you stress the help you are seeking is for you and your partner.

Dianne, the forum administrator, also seems to find the latest information and possibly she can steer you to some information. I did not realize the information available was so paltry.

Yep, Mr. Cutie probably makes up all sorts of horrible things about you. Most P’s practice this sort of behavior against people they view as obstacles to overcome. He also shares it with anyone who will listen to him. As for the face pulling, once he realizes this behavior only makes people think he is strange and they pull away from him, he will stop that action. In short, face pulling does not equate charming. This face pulling for him is probably some sort of adolescent behavior. You know how when you are an adolescent you do “dumb” things. This is probably just a dumb thing for an “adolescent P”. (emotionally behind, remember?)

Geez, Jan, you do have a rough road ahead. The paradox of it all is that the worse it gets, the better is will become as well. Fortunately, you are intelligent and astute and recognize this. I think the forum will offer clues, tho’ they may be hidden and it can be a place for you to come with questions and to let off steam. I enjoy sharing with you. I’ve only had to deal with a P in a relationship I was free to walk away from. You, on the other hand, aren’t in a relationship in that sense, nor is it a business/work-related encounter. You don’t walk away because you care about your partner. I thoroughly understand you don’t like the child and he just uses you, but you are giving it your best and I admire you for that. I think you can offer good insight as you are getting a much different view than most of us.

Today, I have off. Yeaaaaah!!

Have a good one.

Best regards,
MCN

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#4224 - 06/03/05 03:38 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

Well you were spot on again!

We got a phone call from gran last night, she has had the kid since Saturday and she has accepted he has “problems”. She was so angry with my partner and told him she thought the kid would turn out to be a delinquent and he had regressed to the level of a 5 year old etc, etc, etc -in fact all the things I have been saying.

BUT …..guess what? She blamed ME! She told my partner I had ruined her grandchild. When he went through the list of everything I had done to make his life good she ignored it, she also ignored being told he had stolen a wedding ring from our friends house, also that his own mother had got rid of him because he was impossible to live with and how history is repeating itself. She will not accept what he is and is lashing out trying to blame someone/something.

It was the most ridiculous conversation as she just isn’t with the program, she even said she didn’t believe in psychologists and we should never have taken him. She thinks boarding school is terrible and he should be at home being cuddled. YUK the thought of it-he never washes or cleans his teeth. We thought living with other kids at school would cure that problem along with the bedwetting but being realistic nothing will change him, he does exactly what he wants and doesn’t give a S*** about anyone else’s feelings or rights.

I’m actually pleased that this has happened because the kid is noticeably worse and it can’t be excused or ignored any longer. I feel relieved that my partner now has to fully face up to the issues rather than send his kid away and hope things will improve without intervention.
He told his mother that he doesn’t like his own kid, there is nothing to like about him. Even when I was working with this kid I can now see I never really warmed to him, the nearest I got to any emotion was to feel sorry for him but it was like working in professional capacity you need to be objective to do what is best for the child. We both put his needs first even to the point of me sleeping in a separate rooms so he didn’t feel left out of the relationship, we didn’t make any physical contact in front of him either. I suppose that is when things started to go badly wrong when we told him we were a couple even after we had spent months preparing the ground.

As I’ve said before Ps like to have one person at a time to deal with and even having a sibling seems to send a P “off on one” He lost control of his father at this point which is a direct correlation to what he did when his mother remarried and had another child. His behaviour became so bad (he was 6 years old at the time) she had to get rid of him.

I feel we are into the next stage of this problem and when he gets back I am going to confront him with everything I know he has done and what he is up to. I know the only reaction I will get is total silence but I want him to know that I know more than he thinks.

I saw a posting today where someone asked if others confronted their P and the reaction, I know this is slightly different as this P is only a teenager and not articulate and certainly has no insight into his own behaviour but I can predict the shrug of the shoulders and “do I care?” attitude.

I do agree with you that therapy for me would be useful and the psychologist did say if I needed to talk to her she would be very happy to do so but she couldn’t offer any help for the kid, I know they are busy people and didn’t want to take her time, she is a child psychologist and needs to deal with them first. There may be lots of kids she can really make a difference with. I have my support network of family and friends and this forum so that has got me through so far.

Today feels as though it’s going to be a turning point but that depends on my partner to an extent as I think he needs to let the kid know he can see through him too so we put up a united front. Unfortunately he doesn’t see most the kids manoeuvres but I’m not going to let that stand in the way-I will point them out to him as they occur. I don’t feel too good about that as he has enough to deal with without me being the moaning b**** but instinct tells me I’ve got to use this recent development to draw attention to how bad things really are.

The kid is back later today so I will keep you posted how things progress.

Jan

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#4225 - 06/03/05 06:58 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi Jan,

Your partner’s mother sounds like a real nightmare. The stereotypical “mother-in-law” royale! Your partner, being an only child, was probably smothered with affection in his young years. No woman will ever be good enough for her son and anything that ever goes wrong would be her fault because her son can do no wrong in her eyes. You know how that all goes, I’m sure. However, as you point out, it is becoming evident that Mr. Cutie has some major problems. Fortunately, your partner is aware that you are not the cause of his problem and is defending you to his mother. But, again as you are aware, this is only going to escalate. The problem will not only be Mr. Cutie, the other looming problem is going to be your relationship with the father.

As the Mr. Cutie problem escalates, your partner will become more and more torn. What you don’t want is to be seen as the “shrew” who continually harps about his kid. Even tho’ he is beginning to come to terms with the situation, it hasn’t totally sunk in yet. When it does hit him with full force, things are going to get “rocky”. This will become a very delicate situation and possibly volatile meaning the potential to cause avoidable problems in your relationship if you get the right guidance.

My thoughts with the therapist are this: The therapist can “guide” your partner through this and keep him focused in a way that you (because you are the love interest in his life) cannot. Here, the therapist will be able to “interpret” your emotions and challenges in all this to him when he begins to “doubt”. For you, the therapist can “guide” you through what your partner is going through and give you insight on what will be helpful and what will not be in relation to what is going on with your partner at the different stages. And lastly, the therapist can probably guide you both as to how to handle Mr. Cutie as to what type of discipline will work or not work as this kid ages and with consideration of his psychopathic tendencies.

I am not so sure about confronting Mr. Cutie directly with what you know about him. It’s sort of like why give him the edge? You may be giving him ammunition to focus on other ways of “disturbing the peace”. Right now, he’s still poking around to find your hot buttons and how to create chaos in the home. This is the picture I am getting from what you describe. Again, I am not the professional, this is why I urge you to get yourself back to that professional and get her/his opinion. She/He cannot help Mr. Cutie, but she/he can help you and your partner and possibly offer some guidance in how to handle Mr. Cutie. Just don’t expect her to admit that she/he thinks Mr. Cutie is a P, cuz she/he cannot ethically do that and doing so could cost this person their job. Maybe this person can communicate with you via e-mail once a week on the discipline issues. You may even need another therapist for the both of you (this is more for your partner than it will be for you as I defined above, but you will benefit as well). I don’t think you need therapy because you are not handling things well or that you are losing it in any sense. I believe you will need therapy because this is going to be a major life crisis type of thing and someone who is objective and not emotionally involved will be able to help you both steer the ship according to your (yours and your partner’s) specific needs.

I used to contemplate confronting my P, but decided against it. In being honest with myself, I think it was more like an ego thing. Like I wanted him to know that I knew who and what he is. I eventually came to the conclusion it really wouldn’t accomplish anything. Because the P doesn’t care if you know or not. Won’t change or stop them. All you do is let them know you are most likely not going to be manipulated or as easily manipulated and that is when they could make more trouble for you, considering their deviousness. Mr. Cutie is somewhat limited in this regard because of his age/maturity, but an adult P could pose other problems. I know that there exists the possibility of “running into” my P and I’ve concluded that ignoring him is probably the best course. Reflecting on this, I virtually did confront him and did “rip off his mask” at our final confrontation, I just didn’t realize it at the time. I actually did not realize I was dealing with a P, I just thought there was something MAJOR-LY” wrong with him. And I didn’t waste one minute in getting away from him, like I couldn’t move fast enough for myself. I was not sticking around to find out what it was, nor was I inclined to get him to seek help. I had this sense of pure evil and just ran as fast and as far as I could go. Fortunately, I have not had the problems that some of the others here have experienced with the P ringing me or visiting me. He only made one weak attempt via e-mail and I successfully nipped that in the bud. I don’t expect he’ll be seeking me out.

I had forgotten the bedwetting thing and his boarding school. Does the school have a problem with this? Just wondering how they handle it.

Keep you head and wits about you. Let me know how it’s going.

Best regards,
MCN

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#4227 - 06/03/05 12:49 PM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi Jan,

I forgot you told me that your partner has a younger brother. However, the mother sounds like a real piece of work, and from the detail you just gave she sounds pretty selfish herself.

At least your partner is honest about being a parent. It’s so much easier to deal with honesty than when someone isn’t completely honest about matters. Even if it is just being honest with yourself. That’s always the hardest to do sometimes.

IMO, dealing with “each incident” as it comes along is a wise decision on your part. To a certain extent, I think you (and your partner) have to deal with him just like any other family deals with their children. Most parents learn early on to present a united front when problems arise. Plus, any punishments to be meted out should be agreed upon beforehand. I mean this in a general sense. (One time my kid’s dad decided the punishment should be no outdoor play, in the middle of summer no less, for one week. I nearly hit the roof. I yanked him away and privately told him he just punished me as well!!!)

Of course, some punishments need to be handled right away and the other advised as soon as possible. Since you two seem to be living as a family unit, I believe the child has to accept it. He isn’t being abused and the “rules of the house” you’ve given here sound reasonable to me, especially given the child you are dealing with. Your partner sounds level headed and is accepting of your guidance with regard to child-rearing. However, all that stated, not too much is going to work on a P. This is why I think the therapist could be helpful, especially one familiar with working with “problem” children. I think the therapist could advise you of techniques that would help to a degree. It was quite enough for me raising “normal” kids; I can’t imagine having to deal with a “problem” one.

I apologize, but I am not familiar with how the system works in the UK. Not familiar with much in the US either to be honest. I think the original therapist will probably understand your situation and be able to point you in the right direction. You and your partner sound very stable and supportive of each other. I just think you will require a little more support in the future. Your friends and some family(?) may circle round you when/if you reach that point and be supportive, but most will not be familiar with psychopaths and/or the type of behavior you are dealing with, plus all the emotion. That’s the only reason I suggest therapy for the two of you. Or perhaps there is a group of parents of “suspected P” children who meet and discuss their problems? I know we have similar types of “group therapy” things here in the states.

Even tho’ you are letting the little P know that he can’t put one over on you, don’t forget who you’re dealing with. He’ll never give up trying as long as he lives. It’s his nature. My dark and evil side would wanna mess with his head. I’d wanna watch telly with him and never show any emotion. Or one day really like some type of music and the next not like it at all. LOL. It sounds like you pretty much hold your own by not showing him when he has hit a nerve and just smiling at him. I assume you don’t let him slide when he lies, etc. Like when my kids (at 4 and 5) claimed they brushed their teeth and I knew they hadn’t, I would march them in the bathroom and pull out their toothbrush and show them if they had brushed their teeth the brush would be wet and then show them that their toothbrush was dry. That may not work with Mr. Cutie, but you understand what I’m saying.

Yes, it will be interesting to know what got granny hacked off with him. Maybe he did it deliberately cuz he got “bored” with her. In short, she ran out of gifts for him possibly?

I hope you are keeping good journals on all this stuff so you can write a book and get something out of all this!!!

Best regards,
MCN

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#4229 - 06/07/05 11:28 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi Jan,

Are you enjoying your reprieve? Hope so. My last post went off into internet space somewhere.

Psychopathic Staring: This is something quite a few of us have observed. It is different from any other “stare” you’ve ever witnessed and if/when you do, it will be unmistakable. In short, you will know it when you see it. It is not merely the “blank” stare you get when someone cannot answer a question. (I find this typical behavior with the average teenager. They are truly at a loss for whatever reason to answer or reply). It is not a menacing stare. It is not a “wistful” stare, it is not just simply looking past or through you type of stare. It is very difficult to describe, but I will attempt it. (However, I am certain my description will not be “right on” for every P.) The face does not lose expression always, however the eyes seem to glaze and the eyes do seem to be looking past you or through you, but you are left with a “sense” that they have “inwardly” zoned into another space or time. This behavior does not seem to “fit” the circumstances. Example: If you were conversing with a “normal” person and you were discussing some fantasy goal or dream and giving vivid descriptions, you may find your listener “wistfully” staring as they internalized your description. That would be acceptable human behavior or maybe even “typical”. Or, maybe you were boring your listener and they just sort of "zone" out. However, this is not the type of circumstance that will trigger a psychopathic stare. Generally speaking, you are most likely going to be in a serious and very intense conversation with the psychopath and chances are the psychopath involved in this conversation is being accused of some “unacceptable” behavior. In short, the psychopathic stare does not match the typical response pattern of “normal” human behavior given the circumstances. Personally, I have only witnessed this four times by the same person. Each time was a bit different circumstance/trigger and the stare varied in “intensity” if you will. Only once did I witness a slackening of the facial muscles, and if pushed to give a reason for it, I would guess that it may have been the element of surprise for the P or it may have been a serious threat (as perceived by the P) to him. This is the best observation/insight I can offer.

Jan, with all you have shared, it is my observation that R’s staring is a bit different. Yes, he does take on that blank stare when he does not wish to continue whatever conversation. As I mentioned, I think this is common adolescent behavior, with one difference. Due to his lack of emotional maturity, he is not able to carry it off with any “finesse” the average adolescent is capable of. I’m thinking of the picking up a magazine at the neighbor’s home; too obvious, even for the average teenager.

I think his staring AT you is for a couple of reasons. First, he has never been challenged in the manner in which you challenge him. A. You haven’t been around long enough in his life so that he has gotten a handle on your weaknesses, and B. your “acceptance” of him did not come as automatic as his gran and his father. These two people he has already spent more time with and has had the opportunity to observe them and learn their weaknesses and idiosyncrasies. Neither is a challenge to him. You are viewed as a challenge because you “prevent” a good deal of his manipulation of his father, if no one else. Thus, you are now the greatest challenge to him.

Second, his staring or watching of you, is his way of learning about you, and more than you may suspect. Example: I may notice or “learn” that when you are agitated you tend to speak more rapidly. But, I may not pick up on that fact that you seem to pull on your ear a little more often. The psychopath will. Why? Because he does not observe us in the same manner in which we observe others. His observations are more astute in this sense because he has no other way to interpret them. He is not capable of empathy. Without this capacity, he is clueless to how you “feel” unless he has some other physical marker or clue which he ascertains from your body language. This is why I urge being devoid of emotion. You do not provide clues for him. At that point he is forced to focus on the verbal clues, which pose a problem for him as well because psychopaths do not recognize the “emotional” implications of words. Thus, you keep him disadvantaged and make it very difficult for him to manipulate you or run his game.

This is my opinion of why he is so interested in watching you so intently. He needs to learn about you in order to remove you as the obstacle he perceives you to be and/or to be able to manipulate you.

Were you ever able to find out what got his gran so hacked off?

Best regards,
MCN


Edited by MoreCautiousNow (06/07/05 01:47 PM)

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#4230 - 06/08/05 06:33 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

Great that we have another thread that is so precise. I saw your post before it disappeared but only very briefly and didn’t read it properly. I hope it reappears when Di gets time. Hasn’t she been busy with all that info she has posted???? So interesting.

No- I didn’t find out what ticked gran off, all she said to N was that his son would turn out to be a delinquent which I took to mean he had committed some sort of offence and the other thing was that he doesn’t know what to do with himself.

He never knows what to do with himself, he has a low boredom threshold and if there is nothing on TV he stands over N, quite literally-he stands a few inches away from him. It is very strange to watch as he doesn’t speak but just looks at him.
He has no interests or hobbies and wants to be entertained all the time. I think that this ties in with his lack of problem solving skills. He can’t fix his own boredom.

One of the first things I ever noticed about him was his stupid questions that with a few seconds thought he could have worked out for himself. If he is asked to do any task he can’t work out how it should be done and makes a complete mess of it although I think that also ties in with his laziness so he is not asked again. ( Laziness is another issue- I can honestly say I have never met ANYONE so lazy, It’s staggering.)
For example problem solving-he hasn’t worked out you need a sharp knife to cut cheese and always uses a dinner knife and hacks chunks off it or if its hot he needs to take his coat off and if it’s cold to put one on. So many little things that my 3 year old niece could work out for herself.

The staring thing- I have seen the one you mean and I can’t quite describe it but it is obvious though not harsh, the others stares seem to take different forms and yes you are right about the blank teenage stare that says “I don’t want to hear that”. R often cocks his head to one side as though listening to something but glazes over then contorts his face in different directions looks like the cogs are turnings then he snaps out of it, he does this as though he is in a different place from the rest of us.
I once asked what he was thinking and the reply was “nothing” which I totally expected. The staring at me is very different and I agree he is trying to learn about me. I think that is because he hasn’t a clue what is going on in my head and he is looking for the visual signs. Even when he has been as bad as he can be I say my bit then revert back to my cheery self with everyone else-that floors him every time!

I sometimes deliberately show the wrong sort of emotion to a situation-maybe a TV program-and you can see he is totally perplexed. He just can’t read me and he hates it because he can’t find my buttons but the downside of that is he tries every button he can think of. It could be that those are the bedwetting nights-his only form of attack.
He is definitely trying to get rid of me for the reasons you mentioned-he can’t control me and the frustration this causes in him is blatantly obvious and I have to be eliminated.

This may seem a strange thing to say but here is something about his eyes, with R it is a coldness that I’ve never seen in anyone else. Even his school photos have a glazed look, the type of stare you described. When I look at my son’s photos his eyes sparkle as though they are smiling. It’s a direct look that you can engage with. R’s eyes sometimes look at me with such hate, they never smile but thinking about it, his mouth doesn’t smile either.
The only time he ever makes eye contact is when he is lying.

I think N is coming to the conclusion our problem will have to be faced head on but he doesn’t know how so I need to give him time to think things through. I was about to ask him if he would send R to is natural mother for the summer holiday but he got a bizarre phone call from her new husband saying “Is that N? Are you still looking?” he repeated it then the phone went dead. He thought his ex might have disappeared which is very possible. Just my luck when N was in the frame of mind to agree to it.

As an aside – I am going through a legal battle with my ex-it’s being going on 3 years now and coming to a conclusion and when it’s over I want to move on and I’m not taking any baggage with me. I think R would be better with his mother, he has a half brother he could spend time with and although he is younger seems to be brighter than R and has hobbies and sports. At least R would be doing something other than watch TV, he even watches the type of soap ladies of a certain age like to watch. He had the choice of a pop music show and a soap but chooses the soap every time. I don’t know whether you have heard of “Coronation Street”, it’s about people living in a street in the north of England so about relationships etc. so I haven’t a clue why he is interested in it unless it’s the only way he can observe people. Maybe you have some thoughts on that.

Best regards
Jan

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#4231 - 06/08/05 07:33 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hey Jan,

I think my other post is lost forever. I retyped it and it is the one about psychopathic staring.

Just as we do not one day wake up and are full-grown adults, psychopaths do not suddenly wake up and are psychopaths. We are operating here from the premise that R is a psychopath. So, you are watching a psychopath grow essentially. This is why I said keep a journal. One day you may be able to turn it into a “best seller”. Right now you have the front row seat.

Remember I told you that family sit-coms are perfect learning tools for psychopaths? This is why R would chose to watch a soap opera. It gives him insight as to how we “others” operate. He’s probably comparing your behavior and some character’s behavior to get some kind of read on you. Not simply tho. He may have overhead you say something or do something (smile, laugh, frown) at something similar in the soap. He’s getting insight. Don’t underestimate him.

I don’t know if this will work, or if you want to put yourselves thru it as I’m sure it will be quite tedious for you and I don’t know that a professional child psychologist would find my suggestion appropriate for these types of children, but I would give him certain chores to do (if you haven’t already). Chores that are not his own personal gain (brushing his teeth), but a chore like taking the garbage out. Establish a reward system. I am sure he will expect the reward without the effort or with even poor effort. And I would make him do his own laundry when he pees in his bed. How is his bedwetting handled at the boarding school?? Psychopaths greatly dislike being shamed. Or have you ever tried totally ignoring him when he reverts to talking like a child? Don’t reward him with a response. When he’s bored, give him something to do and it does not necessarily have to be a “fun” thing to do. Give him a chore.

I don’t think you will be able to foist off R on his mother for very long. Eventually, in the not so distant future, I think your problem with R is going to be solved by the “authorities”. He doesn’t sound as tho’ he is all that clever “psychopath” wise. And from what went on at gran’s (the implied what probably went on), this is where all fingers seem to be pointed for this kid. In short, I think it’s going to be taken out of your hands whether you want it or not.

You seem to be doing a great job at keeping R confused. I had to laugh tho’. I think you and I are on the “same page”. I would do precisely what you are doing by displaying the opposite emotion of what a TV show calls for. I thought it was just me, my evil dark side popping up. However, in this situation it does have its benefits.

I saw a letter posted somewhere here about how some parents were handling their psychopathic child. You should read it if you haven’t already. They had a long list of how they handled situations with their child.

Do keep in mind, R cannot and does not have capacity to think things through. It is not necessarily laziness. For him, a knife is a knife is a knife. The end. I know it’s exasperating but this is what you are dealing with.

Many have described a psychopath’s eyes as seeming “dull and flat” and full of hate.

I hope your legal issues are over quickly for your sake. They are never fun.

Best regards,
MCN

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#4232 - 06/08/05 09:30 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
In reply to:

Psychopaths greatly dislike being shamed.


Thats an interesting comment. Ps have always struck me as being pretty shameless; not really worried if they get caught out or not, everything just part of the game.

If you have time could you expand on that one a bit, MCN?

JAM

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