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#4237 - 06/08/05 11:52 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: JustAMan]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Thank you JAM and Di,

I will have to play with it. Not all that adept with this. Just know how to type and am long winded.

Thank you JAM for expounding. Muchly appreciated.

Regards,
MCN

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#4238 - 06/09/05 06:17 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

How did you know I was into mud wrestling??? Well…maybe I’ll try it one day.

I have been keeping notes for quite a while now, I originally started because I wanted to paint a clear picture of what was going on in our lives on a daily basis for the child psychologist. I wanted it be totally objective so avoided giving an opinion on anything or using adjectives to describe anything.
I have also kept separate notes on situations I felt intuitive about or things he was doing or behaviours I suspected. In these notes I also stated how I was feeling about these things as well as noting other peoples observations and comments.
I can’t do it much at the moment as the kid is now at boarding school and spends half his holidays with his gran.

I do think I’m watching the development of a person who will one day be fully fledged so hope my records will be useful in the future. I wish I had the ability to write a book on the subject but I think the nearest my capabilities will allow is a humorous book for parents on how to survive the RAD/Fledgling.

I see what you mean about the soaps, it could be where he learns his phrases and actions because he doesn’t do anything that is not copied from someone else. (We even had the left handed knife and fork eating because the neighbours son does it –in the UK the fork is always in the left hand and the knife in the right with no putting one down or crossing over hands)
I just wish he would copy some positive behaviour but he only does the bad things, it seems every single thing he does he has to do it wrong or badly. You are probably thinking there must be something that this kid does that is OK but I honestly can’t think of anything, I hate being so negative.

We did have a few visits with the child psychologist and everything she suggested we had already tried apart from giving him chores. The only thing we make him do is wash his bedding and put it out to dry. I got to the stage where clearing up after he has done a chore and the performance he gives while doing it wasn’t worth it. He behaves like a real diva when doing something and he is centre stage so I can’t watch so he doesn’t get attention. No attention means the job can last for hours and still doesn’t get done or it’s done to the standard of a 2 year old.

He seems to like his “flags” on the washing line which brings me to the point of shaming him. He can’t be shamed because he doesn’t care but he does hate being humiliated and I hate to say it but I tried humiliating him about it in an attempt to stop him doing it at school but guess what? He does it there and doesn’t care. He shares a room with 3 other older boys who he has probably gained the sympathy vote from.

The matron phoned up the first time it happened because she thought he might have a few problems LITTLE DID SHE KNOW! He has certainly got her sympathy vote-she is a gran figure and he’s got her sussed.

We deliberately didn’t tell the school about his condition because we wanted to see how he would behave in a new environment and if we had told them he would not have been able to act naturally. This was partly to judge whether his behaviours were reserved entirely for us. It didn’t take long for him to carry on as before.

We did try the reward system to elicit good behaviour but because he has no desire to please anyone it was hard to find something to reward. I started a star chart and he would get one every morning he didn’t wet the bed, 7 days and he got taken to McDonalds, 14 days and we went somewhere smarter. We had one trip to McDonalds!
Rewarding is a tricky one because it’s another way for him to manipulate situations and he used it to it’s full extent and the psychologist thought it might make him worse as he would be calling the shots.

I do have a wicked streak –I’m one of the quiet ones too! I love to show all the wrong emotions to confuse, I know when he is when he puts his head on one shoulder, closes one eye and curls one half of his mouth up as if saying “uh?”.

I posted a while ago some info I got from another forum-maybe that is what you saw-it’s called Coping with an Adolescent Psychopath. Great piece of advice which I’ll post again if it’s not the same one.

Oh! The lazy thing-he is definitely lazy and takes the path of least resistance with every single thing. You wouldn’t believe the extent of his laziness, he takes it to extremes.

I will know tomorrow how my legal thing is going to go so may have something positive happening for me at last.

All the best
Jan

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#4239 - 06/09/05 12:19 PM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hey there, Jan,

LOL, hahahahhaha. Hey, whadda say we start a team. Bill ourselves as Guerilla Psycho Gurls?? I hear it’s a pretty lucrative business. Plus, we wouldn’t have to worry about maintaining some glamorous image. Sheesh, we could just roll outta bed and go to work! We can laugh ourselves all the way to the bank. You up for this Syl? Seriously, if I was gonna start a team of anything, I’d want yous on my side!

I think keeping the journals was a very smart thing to do. (you must be a very organized person) And, you can write a book, even a humorous one. You write here. You’re getting practice for later. Besides, you may capture something very valuable writing down this behavior. In some sense you are in an enviable position with regard to that end of it. However, dealing with it is NOT enviable. My heart goes out to you there.

Yeah, I figured from what you said that it would be more tedious for you to supervise the chores. I did not consider the manipulation part of the reward system. I am not a professional and this is why I hesitate in making suggestions of this sort. From what I’ve read, punishments don’t work. Yes, you cannot “shame” him, but humiliating him may be a route to take. On that, I would talk to the child psychologist. I suppose this method could trigger violence eventually. P’s seem to figure out ways around a lot of things because there is so little they aren’t willing to do or risk.

You have to stop beating yourself up over being negative about the situation. Forget that “half full” crap. The PROGNOSIS is negative. The real deal is that the situation IS NOT going to get better; it’s only going to get worse. I think you’re doing the best anyone could possibly do! Like I said, the only thing left to do is the “damage control.” And you already know where the “leaks” will be coming from. How long do you think it will take to get the phone call from the school that you must come and get him as they can no longer deal with him?? Then what’s the plan? Since he seems to have all these people at the school buffaloed, have you ever been able to find out precisely what he tells them or what kind of behavior he exhibits for them to be so duped?

If you were the one (and I think you were come to think of it) who posted the Coping with an Adolescent P, and it had a list of how the parents handled their situation then, yes, it’s the one I was thinking of. That was so very sad. You could hear and feel their grief in the situation. My heart ached for them. What brave souls they are!

Ahhh, so you are one of those quiet ones who is not just sitting there thinking your own thoughts on the matter, you’re busy thinking up devious plots!! I knew I liked you!! I think that’s the only way I’d be able to keep my sanity with this kid is to resort to messin’ with him. Like how are you gonna “damage” him? I don’t think you can. In actuality, it’s more like tripping him up and staying ahead of him and “stunting his growth” in the manipulation arena. It’s sorta like giving him a dose of his own in reverse.

I’ll have to keep the knife and fork deal in mind if I ever make it there to visit. Won’t be so difficult for me because I’m left handed anyway. In the states, it’s pretty relaxed. You’d have to be at some “stuffy” type dinner party to be “talked” about if you did not follow proper protocol.

You know, the P I was seeing had a 17 year old son who I thought was a little different, but what I knew about P’s then you wouldn’t be able to fill a thimble with. However, he never even put sheets on his bed and his father never made him. And this kid was pretty lazy too. His father gave me this story (now I think it was probably a lie) about how his mother lived up in the mountains and was home schooling him and he never had any contact with other people. He told me he didn’t think that was a good thing for the kid, so he took custody of his son. He gave this reason for the kid’s lack of facial expression, etc. From what you are telling me and from what I now have learned, I’m beginning to wonder if both the father and son are P’s. The father for sure, but now I wonder about the son. I didn’t have that much contact with the son tho’.

So, shall we ring up Syl and see if she has any mud on hand??

My best to you as well,
MCN

PS. Keeping my fingers crossed for you that the legal thing turns out the way you hope for.


Edited by MoreCautiousNow (06/09/05 03:53 PM)

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#4240 - 06/10/05 04:59 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN’s Team

This is so good being part of this forum, I’ve smiled and laughed over the last few days which has distracted me from my problems, P and personal. Teamwork works!

I’m fortunate that my work involves being on the internet most of the day and I work from “home” so I can dip in and out at anytime. Things are quite settled here at the moment because Mr Cutie is away at school. The whole atmosphere changes when he is around, literally! It’s as though there is an evil cloud hanging over us. Someone else suggested Ps give off radar and there is definitely something like that going on. Could be vibes, fumes or whatever. I know in our case there is a bad smell about the kid in every sense of the word but it’s also more than that. Can’t explain it.

Between us we have so much experience and I’m going to look at some of the earlier posters to gain more insight. I feel the more I know the easier it will be to distance my emotions from the issues and deal with them more objectively.
The info I posted on dealing with adolescent Ps is something I have been doing intuitively. I showed N but he can’t seem to follow the routine like I do but that may change.

I started keeping journals to put into words what was happening and it was a way of dissipating some of the anger I felt before I had anyone to share it with. This kid has changed me so much and I resent it. I am normally a quiet, thoughtful person that tries to see the best in everyone but now feel as though my thoughts are concentrated on spotting evil before it happens. I have never felt hate before and I don’t want to feel like this any longer. I know no-one can tell me when I won’t feel like that, it’s within myself to change it. It’s not fair to N that I feel such hate for his child and keep waiting for the day when he says “enough is enough”. Every time I tell him I would understand if he wants me to go and we live separately until the kid leaves home, he won’t hear of it and says he understands exactly how I feel.
That makes me feel even more mean.

I do have an evil streak now and do think up devious methods to be one step ahead of the kid, even to the extent of phrasing my questions to get a proper reply. I can’t stay honest reply but it leaves little room for bull****.

I did think of one positive thing though….when we have a long car journey he just sits quietly for hours. Apart from a few silly questions it is peaceful-hey-maybe I have found the answer-live in the car!!! (See, the sense of humour is still lurking just when I thought I had lost it)

If the school kicks him out I don’t know what I would do-I suppose I would have to leave and get somewhere of my own. I can’t expect N to dump him. I was hoping he would renew contact with his bio mother so he could start going back there for visits.

Don’t worry about how you use your knife and fork if you come here to visit, it’s just that R isn’t left handed and if you sat “downwind” of him you might get covered in food that he couldn’t control. Kids here are taught to eat formally so they know how it should be done if they are expected to attend any formal function but of course we all take short cuts, even fingers at times. He just uses the wrong methods on purpose so I refused to take him to restaurants in future. It got so he couldn’t cut his food. That seems to be part of the regression. Even his gran says he has regressed or maybe it’s his lack of problem solving skills. As he gets older there are more problems to solve and he can’t work anything out for himself so is not advancing and staying like a young child. So regression might not be the right word-it could be lack of progress.

I didn’t know your P had a son-the similarities are scary. R’s mothe,r from what I know about her is a raging sort of P and he displays a lot of characteristics she displays. This is what makes me convinced it’s inherited in his case. It’s not learned behaviour either because he hasn’t witnesses most of it, like things that happened before he was born. There may be a bit of Foetal Alcohol Effect here too but I can’t prove it so I can’t bring that into the equation although I know she had a drink problem. She could have lied when she said she had given up drinking during pregnancy. Her second child has the features and mental problems of a child with Foetal Alcohol Syndrome so she did drink during that pregnancy.
.
R wouldn’t and hasn’t put sheets on his bed if he can get away with it. Do you think your P’s son might have been kicked out by his mother like R? I know exactly what you mean about lack of facial expression too!

Well…my legal team say I have a strong case so will press ahead on Monday. You wouldn’t believe what I have been through with that over the past 3 years but it’s obviously not a forum issue but hasn’t helped with my mental state. I perhaps could have dealt with one or the other but not both together.

The outcome of my case will dictate my future so watch this space!

Have a good weekend all of you.

Jan

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#4241 - 06/10/05 10:22 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Howdy, Hi,

I think I have our “wrestling” names. If you come up with better, please share. I’ve got Jabbin’ Jan, Slippery Syl, & Matey M.

We gotta throw in some humor sometimes. We’re all in this together and laughter is the best medicine.

I know you and N face your own problems and to add to it the care and keeping of a psychopath certainly doesn’t help. Thank goodness you and N have a strong bond and a stable relationship.

There’s not a lot out there to guide you with Mr. Cutie, so you are pretty much left to your own devices which you have tackled and continue to do so in a very intelligent manner. N probably has a more difficult time with the “routine” as he does not have the child raising experience that you have, nor does he have much experience with how a “normal” child reacts/behaves, uh and (don’t beat me up for this one) he’s a guy. Little tongue in cheek there.

You don’t actually hate the child, you resent him. And, reality is the child did not “choose” to be this way. But, psychopaths are evil and we have to protect ourselves from that. You are not being mean, you are taking the steps you must in order to protect and preserve. (“Hate is but a dead thing, and who among you would be as a tomb” – I think Kahlil Gibran said this but not sure)

Hmm, … I’m getting this visual of you and N and R all living in the car. Funny, tho’ I keep seeing you leaning over from the front seat and strangling little R in the back seat. LOL. Just kidding.

I have wished that I had the entire two years that I spent with my P on videotape so I could go back and review it with clarity. As far as the P’s son getting kicked out by the mother is probably a very likely scenario. I highly doubt a P would want to take on the responsibility of child-raising willingly. Imagine that, a P raising another P. However, bottom line is that I really don’t know what was true and what was not as far as anything the P told me. I was never around the child for very long periods of time as you are and he was 17 so he was rather mobile and not home very much. I “bought” the P’s story (at the time) of his taking custody of his son. I thought the kid was a little odd, but I factored in what I was told. Emotionally this kid seemed to be on the level of a normal 13 or 14 year old, but he was reasonably intelligent and “subdued”.

Many P’s have drug/alcohol-related problems. Probably due to their impulsiveness. Therefore, your description of Mr. Cutie’s mum and the circumstances sound spot on with everything else.

I am sure you have gleaned from my previous posts to you and others that the “energy drain” effect that P’s tend to have on us I find very fascinating. I keep insisting that there is something to this. I’ve experienced and felt it. What it is, how it works and why isn’t known, I realize, but I am interested in any research that has gone on in that area. It’s a very odd phenomenon. Even you are experiencing it. During the end with my P, my instinct, intuition, subconscious whatever you want to call it, seemed to take over and in the end saved me from a lot of misery. I did “all the right things” without realizing I was dealing with a P.

I brought up the school issue because my point was when the school can no longer handle him, you will probably be close to the time the authorities are going to be forced to step in.

I hope you have a pleasant weekend and that all goes well for you in the legal matter.

With warm regards,
MCN

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#4242 - 06/12/05 12:54 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

You are right-hate isn’t the right word, I think loathe would be better. I must look up that Gibran quote.

Interesting that you think this kid can’t help himself-
I think he has chosen to cultivate his activities. He knows what he should do and what is expected of him in most circumstances because I’ve seen him do it, that’s when he is being Mr Cutie. His father, gran and myself have spent years guiding him but he chooses to do things his way. Nothing will stop him.

No punishment will deter him and he will do the same things repeatedly. Instant gratification is one of his priorities. This is why I think the stealing will bring him to the attention of the authorities soon.

I think he can help himself and he has the choice whether he wants to part of society on our terms but he chooses not to. That’s what I call a P.

I find it very odd that the school does not give feedback on a regular basis so haven’t a clue what they make of him. I suppose he comes into contact with so many people that one person alone doesn’t have much time with him, therefore don’t get too concerned about his strange behaviour. It doesn’t affect them to nay extent,

He hasn’t made any friends but that is masked by him hanging round with the older boys…the Mr Cutie act…and gets taken under their wing. He is using that situation to get “looked after” and get more privileges.

Got your new swimsuit yet? I was just telling Sylvie I’m off shopping now to get mine-mud coloured or do we have to wear uniform?

All the best
Jan

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#4243 - 06/12/05 07:30 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi Jan,

OK, we're off to a great start. We're all 5ft. tall and probably don't weigh much over 300 pounds all together. (sorry, I'm one of those dumb yanks who has not learned metric). Think they'll be laughin' us off the stage? Ha, the bigger they are, the harder they fall. Yeah, we can wear swimsuits, but I don't think it's gonna much matter once we're covered in mud. I was thinking more along the lines of tee shirts and cutoffs. By the way, I tried to recruit JAM, but he's been silent on the matter.

Part of the issue with P's is that they cannot control their impulsiveness. They also do not learn from their mistakes. Our "rules" make no sense to him whatsoever, so why should he follow them? You have to get your head wrapped around that. He is only cultivating activities that interest him or somehow he sees some advantage for himself.

He will follow a rule, or seem to IF he sees an advantage to it or will get something out of it. But don't expect him to see any logic in it as you do. The Mr. Cutie act equates psychopathic charm (he's still learning yet) used by the P to manipulate for some preceived gain.

Any "friends" he has at any time will eventually distance themselves from him, unless they are a P as well or have some mental problem. He WILL do something to them to drive them away.

When I confronted the P I was with, (I did not accuse him of being a P, I accused him of lying, cheating, and implied he was behaviing like a total jerk - I had no clue at the time he was a P - stupid me), he very humbly looked at me and simply said, "That's me." At the time, I was truly flabbergasted. I'm thinking to myself, "the audacity! I just tell this idiot he's a total jerk and he tells me, 'that's me'!? Shall I tell him I think he's a total moron too?" Minutes prior to that, I asked him how he felt about the two of us and he totally zoned out into the psychopathic stare and turned and faced the wall for a good 7-10 minutes. Any normal bloke coulda come up with something, even if it was lame. Believe me, when he pulled that, I figured something was really not quite right with this guy and I should get away from him immediately and not be troubling myself about what was "wrong" with him at that moment.

The reality was, at that precise moment he was telling the truth. He truly did not know how he felt and he confessed that he really didn't find his behavior a problem.

It took me six months to wrap my head around that. The average person finds it difficult to believe a psychopath cannot recognize what we take for granted. Their handicap is not physically visible. The best analogy I can give you is asking a P to emote on a mature and sincere level is equivalent to asking an armless man to do a handstand. It's just not gonna happen.

When Mr. Cutie does behave in an acceptable manner, it is an indication (because of his age) that he is "learning" that this is how he can get something he wants. He is learning the art of manipulation, NOT that this is how one should behave. And, you are correct in that instant gratification is his priority and it is why he is motivated to steal, or do things his way, or whatever he choses to do.

Sounds like the only feedback you're gonna get from this school is when they ring you and ask you to come and get him, or refuse to sign him on again.

In a couple of years I think you're gonna have the authorites knocking on your door. From what you describe, he doesn't sound as tho' he's one of the more intelligent and clever P's. Then you're going to face the problem of Dad and gran letting go and not bailing him out or leave him in the streets to fend for himself. That's going to be a real tough one. That's what you need to be preparing for. For now, I guess you just have to be thankful that he's not underfoot all the time and that you get a break from him. Some parents don't get that.

Hope you day is a great one!!

My best to you,
MCN


Edited by MoreCautiousNow (06/12/05 08:01 AM)

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#4245 - 06/12/05 09:26 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: JustAMan]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi there JAM,

It's just a bit of humor going on between Fledgling P's and New Member/Observing P's

Some of what you missed:

"From MCN to Sylvie -You, me and Jan could probably be mud wrestlers or something!!! I don’t get the impression that either one of you is a shrinking violet.”

“Hi MCN from Jan

How did you know I was into mud wrestling??? Well…maybe I’ll try it one day.”

“Hey there, Jan, from MCN

LOL, hahahahhaha. Hey, whadda say we start a team. Bill ourselves as Guerilla Psycho Gurls?? I hear it’s a pretty lucrative business. Plus, we wouldn’t have to worry about maintaining some glamorous image. Sheesh, we could just roll outta bed and go to work! We can laugh ourselves all the way to the bank. You up for this Syl? “

“Hey Sylvie, from MCN

You got an "honorable" mention in Observing Fledgling Psychopaths. Better read it if you haven't already. Serious business proposition going on there. LOL."
-------------------------------------------------------
You were invited to join the "Guerilla Psycho Gurls" mud wrestling team. However, we'd have to change our "billing" name if you accept. You might look cute in a little "Speedo" covered in mud. Whadda say, gurls??

Cheers,
MCN

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#4246 - 02/25/06 09:41 PM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: ]
ebeadit1 Offline
member

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 2
I have a daughter that was diagnosed with Oppositional defiance disorder and she has been leeping into psychopath personality without developing full fledge Conduct Disorder. Here is a list I observe: She is a girl and I believe that girls manifest different behaviors than do boys because there are so few of them to be observed:

Is glib and superficial (her emotion feels fake everyone tells me this)
Becomes easily annoyed and then becomes violent (manipulating friends to hurt or go after someone and either physically harm or verbally abuse)
Has utilized a weapon to scare a family member and said it was a joke
Shows no remorse (very cold demeanor when challenged about behavior)
Has two different personalities (excessively nice, and hostile, aggressive
and cold.
Most people who don't know her believe she is very sweet and can't believe
you when you tell them things she has done.(Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde Syndrome)
Manipulates people to get what she wants (makes up stories about people to
get attention away from herself when she is in trouble)
Starts fights with people that she is close to by lying and telling stories
Is highly sexually precocious and sexually inappropriate but will tell you she does not like boys at all and most boyfriends are just friends even with there is sexual encounters.
Is somewhat aggressive sexually with boys, men
stares coldly when challenged.
Makes people believe she agrees with them about rules and then later
does what she wants that goes against them.
She is very shallow and superficial in emotion
States she loves animals but has little to do with them (sometimes holds
her cat but very little.
Tells lies and can't remember them
Has very limited memory capabilities unless she has been hurt Then
remembers to get even and harbors for a long time.
Is always complaning about somatic pain and exagerates for attention
Constantly denies things she has done or said and is convincing to the
point that you actually question yourself.
Believes her lies.
Engages in attention seeking behavior that is often destructive.
Highly impulsive with no regard for consequences.
Irresponsible to the point of almost stealing (keeping books from library,
school, friends CDs, clothing, etc)
Copies bizarre lyrics with high sexual and violent overtones with very little understanding of the meanings (can recite the lyrics but if you ask her what that music means she states no understanding of it).
Treats people more like objects rather that human beings and when threatened will become aggressive
Her since of reality is not most peoples' reality and often scares people.
Has no real connection with anyone and complains of it.
States that she does not care about hurting people.
Does no recognize most societal norms and rules. Will break the smallest rules without regard for it.
Has unrealisitic optimism.
Has very short term relationships (makes friends easily and the loses after a few months)
Seems to be highly rejected from her peers.
Seems to have been sexually assalted more that most girls her age (15)
(Several boys have been accussed of sexually assaulting her with little
consequences directed toward her false accusations.
Any form of punishment does not affect her at all and she states she does
not care.


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#4247 - 03/02/06 05:57 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: ebeadit1]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi ebeadit1, welcome to the forum. I am very sorry to hear about your daughter. The more I read, I guess the diagnosis you received for your daughter sounds like a pre Psychopath diagnosis.

Depending on where you live there is a youth version available now for ages 14 - 17.

How are you coping with all of this? Do you have other children or pets in the house? Unfortunately the symptoms your daughter is displaying don't sound like a rosy future.

Jan has been quite busy but she knows so much about this subject, hopefully she will pop by soon an give you some words of support and advise.

Di

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