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#4204 - 06/04/05 07:11 PM Observing Fledgling Psychopaths
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi

These are just some of the observations I have made about the RAD/Fledgling I am living with. Has anyone else noticed similar patterns of behaviour, especially in younger Ps?

Likes one to one relationships otherwise triangulates or acts out
Doesn’t sing, dance or listen to music
Doesn’t tell or understand jokes
Asks if I’m being sarcastic, joking or I really mean something
Doesn’t laugh at humorous TV programmes but will laugh at people hurting themselves
Never relates humorous incidents that have happened unless being malicious
Sneers rather than laughs
Uses other people’s expressions and even other people’s questions
Repeats what he has heard other people say as though they were his own thoughts/opinions
Copies other people’s behaviour or way of doing things as though it is his own
Reads only fantasy books never ones about people and relationships
Hypervigilant-needs to know everyone’s business even when they are out of sight
Wants to know what everyone has done throughout the day when he has been at school
Never has dreams or nightmares
Never gets up in the night (even for the toilet-still wets the bed)
Never discusses memories of anything from the past
Does facial contortions when being spoken to
Never strokes the cat but will pick it up and drop it
Terrified of dogs and other peoples’ cats
Terrified of water even the shower
Refuses to wash, clean teeth or change clothes but gets annoyed if told he smells
Never comments on beautiful scenery, sunsets, rainbows, pictures etc doesn’t seem to notice anything of beauty
Never praises anybody or anything
Constantly asks the time even when wearing a watch
Asks ridiculous questions he obviously knows the answers to and repeatedly when the same situation arises again
Never expresses any feelings for anybody even his grandmother who dotes on him
Never thinks of doing something nice for anybody even to repay their generosity
Never helps around the house and gets aggressive when asked
Bodges chores so he won’t be asked to help with anything
Looks, acts and sounds a lot younger than 13 years old, very babyish manner including speech
Closes the blinds and takes all his clothes off to go to the toilet
Stands so close to his father when we are out that it is difficult to move
Steals things however trivial
Never cries
Never shows any sadness even when others are very upset or in pain
Has an addiction to chocolate and will spend all his money on it and hides to eat it
Never shared his chocolate or anything else with anyone

There are LOADS of other behaviours but these are the ones that come to mind at the moment.

Jan


Edited by Dianne E. (06/04/05 05:33 PM)

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#4208 - 05/25/05 05:53 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

Your comments are so insightful you must have much more experience about Ps than I have. Do you have any training as a psychologist?

I know that the future is pretty bleak and we just have to get through the next few years with our sanity in tact. I am fully expecting the child’s offending behaviour to catch up with him soon. Last time when he stole a gold wedding ring from our friends house I told him I was going to take it to the police (he told us he had found it) and that got a reaction from him so next time I find anything that is not his I will use that again. The police in the UK will call to “chat” with a child to try to avoid any further offences.

I don’t believe for one minute it will stop him but it’s more to do with him having been brought to the attention of the police on numerous occasions and it being on file.

As for the child’s father…he has not yet fully accepted the situation and I suppose is in denial to an extent. He often uses the “all kids do that” excuse but conversely he seems to be cutting himself off emotionally and each time the child takes him to the edge he cuts off a little more. I would never do it but I know he would send the child back to his mother if I said I wanted to leave so it is obvious he accepts that our future together is more important than trying to change his son-it will never happen.

That sounds a terrible thing to say but he knows in reality his son is a parasite and will drift off to his next host as soon as he can. The child engineered the situation with his mother so she got rid of him to his father who spoiled him every time he had him for visits-he preferred the gifts to living with his mother and half brother. (There are no other children involved, my son has grown up and left home and is an absolute delight.)

The child constantly tries to drive wedge between us and I know it’s because he is frustrated that I can see right through him and he wants rid of me so he can go back to manipulating his father. This is what I mean about him only wanting one to one situations as he can’t control two people at one time, especially me!

I know what you mean about people acknowledging at a later date what I am flagging up now, your comment helps greatly because you fully understand what I’m saying. It will happen but at what price? How many people will be hurt in the process? I don’t know if you are aware of Ian Huntley who murdered two little girls in the UK recently. With the benefit of hindsight people who knew him as a child said “why wasn’t something done about him when he was a child?”
I am saying it about this kid now and I don’t think even his own father realises what COULD happen in the future. Who else do I tell?

My partner is a great person and only tries to see the best in everything so the worst thing I could say about him is he is being naďve here. He is very astute in everything else. I know it’s easier for me because I don’t like the child (that is the polite version) whereas I suppose he is going through a grieving process for the son he has lost.
As far as I can see he has two choices, either to project the image of the son he wants onto this child or to accept his “death”.

I would be more than happy if this kid went back to his mother-so OK she is inadequate but I really don’t care. I think he will get picked up by the police sooner because she won’t put any boundaries up for him. We keep a tight rein so he doesn’t get into serious trouble.

Thanks for that info about impaired olfactory senses, I will look into that-it sounds very possible. I think he actually likes the smell of pee because I once found him lying on the kitchen floor with his face buried in his peed on bedding which was waiting to go into the washing machine.

I will try and find the link to the Ian Huntley article if you or any of the other members are interested.

A big thank you for listening, it really helps.

Jan

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#4209 - 05/25/05 06:42 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: ]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi, I did a google search and here is some info on

Ian Huntley

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#4210 - 05/25/05 08:01 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110

<br>
<br>I have to tell you that the situation you are in truly makes my heart hurt for you. You are really between a rock and a hard place. Your frustration comes thru loud and clear to me. However, you also appear to have an inner strength and fortitude. You also sound intelligent and insightful.
<br>
<br>I AM NOT a psychologist (only took introductory courses in college). SOMETIMES I can be very insightful and other times not. Perhaps it has more to do with what is being communicated and the manner it is being communicated. I do not have much patience for whiney and hand wringing people. I learned a long time ago there are many things that one must do on his/her own; no one else can do them for you. And, I am very analytical to a FAULT. It drives ME crazy sometimes. That’s pretty bad.
<br>
<br>You have taken the bull by the horns!! What comes thru to me is that you are doing this because you are a loving and caring person. Even more commendable as this is not your own son. You even admit you wouldn’t mind him going back to his mother. I do admire your directness and honesty. There are many issues in your dilemma. You are dealing with the father, the son, the family (who will see you as an outsider basically), the professionals and who ever else figures in. And you are attempting to balance it all, and seem to be doing an excellent job at it.
<br>
<br>You are the one who knows and can assess the personalities involved here, so I am hesitant to give advice on that score, as you seem to have it “under control”. I can only offer you my observations and possibly some strategies. You will have to test them out as you see fit.
<br>
<br>First, this child is the child of your significant other/husband (?). I’m sure you have already pondered (and live with) what it must be like to have to admit your child is a psychopath. (Just the thought of having to do that makes me cringe.) On top of that, there is NOTHING you can do to help your own child! I would probably go off the deep end if I were in that situation. (I have two children and I would lay down my life for them!) This will be a great sadness on the father for the rest of his life. And when the time comes, things will probably be quite miserable. This you have already foreseen and pondered.
<br>
<br>From the information you have shared about this child, I assume he has not quite matured enough yet to be able to master the “art of manipulation” to the extent past his immediate family. But, in due time, he will. This gives you a big advantage now coupled with the fact you have seen thru him.
<br>
<br>So far, you seem to be doing well with this. My suggestion is to keep a journal/log of every little thing you pick up on him (like the list you posted earlier). I am suggesting this because our memory can be unreliable at times. Keep this journal somewhere where the kid can’t get to it. (It would only serve to educate him) This means you may have to keep it well hidden and under lock and key. This will only serve to assist you and may come in handy in some way other than we might suppose at the moment. Also, writing things down may help you “see” patterns.
<br>
<br>My observations, reading, intuition, advice from psychologists, and experience gleaned much by my own bumbling onto it has led me to the conclusion of one of the best defenses we possess when dealing with a psychopath is to be DEVOID of EMOTION. It is MY hypothesis. What I am telling you here is that it is strictly amateur.
<br>
<br>If you have read my other posts, you know I suggest this. My own experience, it worked. And I don’t claim to have a lot. Also, my observation is that many people (and professionals have written about it) experience the feeling of “stolen energy” after being around psychopaths for a length of time. I don’t know why it happens. No one does at this point. However, my view is that there are many things we do not understand or know why they occur, we just know they do. Therefore, I’ve concluded that “somehow” “some way” psychopaths have this ability. There has to be a reason for this. Again, what it is, I have no clue. But basically I would have to assume that somehow, someway psychopaths “need” this energy somehow. I’ve pondered the thought that a “quick” energy source for a psychopath would be to cause some commotion stirring up “negative” energy they could feed from.
<br>
<br>So, when the child is parading around nude in front of you, act like there’s not a thing wrong. Just as tho’ he had his clothes on. Sounds to me like you have done this to a degree. However, I agree with you that there are limits and all children need to learn there are certain rules as to how one will behave in the home. Obviously, the child already has some awareness of what distresses you and what doesn’t. Manipulators learn very quickly what your hot button are and they learn when to push them. From personal experience, when they push a hot button of yours, and they do not get the “usual” response and you do an about face with them, you mess their game up. They will begin to pursue all your other hot buttons and when they come up blank, well you can watch them go into a tailspin. For them, it’s like “now what do I do?”
<br>
<br>This is a strategy you will have to give some thought to and try out on your own and see how it works for you. Keep in mind (tho’ your Psychopath hasn’t enough experience yet), that in general psychopaths are very adept at reading body language. If your little finger twitches, they probably know it. It is not easy to make yourself devoid of emotion, but you can do it.
<br>
<br>Your observation of the child smelling his dirty laundry is interesting. Makes me wonder if he is trying to “learn” what are offensive odors and what are considered pleasant. Possibly this is something else a psychopath needs to “learn.”
<br>
<br>I am interested in reading the Ian Huntley article. Our “newspeople” in the States often act as tho’ the USA is the only country worth reporting on and in order to get a better world picture, we Yanks have to depend on the British. Sad, but true. (Many of us here are very distraught over it, but the powers that be drown us out).
<br>
<br>I am more than happy to toss ideas back and forth with you. In summation, I will say that the best you yourself can do is “damage control”. You know what’s coming down the pike, even if no one else sees it now. With regard to bringing the child to the “attention” of the authorities, this may be a good strategy. If only to get some record of his behavior. However, I think the negative side of this strategy is that it will probably not work for very long in being a deterrent to the child and he will get some of his “education” on manipulation thru this after a period of time.
<br>
<br>Again, my heart is with you on this.
<br>
<br>Best regards,
<br>MCN
<br>

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#4212 - 05/25/05 10:42 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Mags Offline
member

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 2
I feel I should weigh in here as I am in a similar situation (which I have posted about on the "Family" forum). My significant other has ane ex-wife that's a P, and also a daughter who I believe is also a P. She is very abusive to pets and is extremely manipulative. She is only 7 years old, but I have watched this behavior progress for more than 3 years. It is much different than the manipulation that I see in most girls, including my own daughters. She also has a constant need for attention, tons of restless energy, as if her mind is racing at all times.

Anyway, I haven't spoken to her father about this because I really don't see at this point that it would be at all helpful to him. He doesn't see through her behavior at all, and it took him more than 10 years to see through his ex-wife and she is a classic, text-book psychopath/sociopath. I know it would break his heart into a million pieces to have me tell him that I believe his daughter is the same, and then what is he going to do about it? Therapy won't help, no one would believe it anyway and he can't cut off contact with his seven year old. It is a terrible, terrible situation.

For myself, I am trying to decide whether I should end this realtionship based mainly on this, that I can see what is coming down the pike and I'm not too sure I can handle it, knowing that she will eventually, as this boy is trying to do, drive a wedge between us, manipulate her father against me, manipulate my kids, etc. I can deal with the P ex-wife, since I don't have to interact with her, but I don't have that same ability with the daughter.

It is a tough situation to be in. Just want you to know that I understand exactly what you are going through.

I also wanted to comment on the energy drain subject. There is a movie out now on DVD called "What the bleep are we here for" which is a combination documentary/drama. There is a physicist interviewed in that movie who studies energy & has written a book about how water crystals are manipulated & formed by human energy. He did some sort of study with placing a glass of water in a room with people considered to be upbeat & positive & noted the formation of the crystals in the water, which were always formed. He did the same thing with people with very negative energy (I can't remember if they were clinically depressed or what) and NO crystals formed at all. It is scientific fact that human beings emit electromagnetic energy, so it is very possible that those with low electromagetic energy must draw their supply from another source. Perhaps P's have low supply? Just a thought.

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#4213 - 05/25/05 04:45 PM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: Mags]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi Mags,

Thanks for sharing that information on the "energy" thing. I am very interested in it. I really think there is something to the energy thing. I wish I had an answer to it. However, the example you give involves positive energy. P's seem to cause a lot of negative energy. Gosh, even more to ponder now. Another piece in this puzzle!!

Thanks for pointing this out.

MCN

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#4214 - 05/25/05 05:08 PM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi Mags, the person you mentioned who was in that movie is Dr. Masauro Emoto, The True Power of Water.

The True Power of Water book review...

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#4216 - 05/26/05 06:55 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

Have you ever thought about taking a degree in psychology? I am amazed how accurately you grasp my situation and feelings, especially the frustration. I really wish there was professional in the UK that I could discuss this with but as you know without a diagnosis there is no help available. The child psychologist even said there was nothing she could offer us.

I too dislike whingers because it doesn’t help, I think that is why this forum is so useful, no-one comes here just looking for sympathy….they want information and answers.
I wanted to know that I had explored every avenue before I give up on this kid but unfortunately I have given for my own sanity. I can’t work alone on this and though his father wants to do his best he is out of his depth and asks me to guide him through parenting. It’s just not the same with a P child, you can’t use the same techniques and it is physically and mentally draining. There are no rewards, I get nothing back from the relationship with this kid, it’s like being a host for a parasite. There is something in this “energy draining” thing but I haven’t quite finalised my thinking on it. It could just be the adrenalin that is constantly pumping round the body or the parasite sucking the life out of me.

My sisters have been a great support (one is a senior probation officer specialising in family welfare and the other was a prison officer until last year responsible for running rehab courses throughout the UK –but she couldn’t stand the manipulators any longer as they would do or say anything to get early parole)

My partner and I are not married and not likely to be in the near future as I have no intention of becoming a stepmother. My partner’s mother is as useful as a chocolate tea-pot and she blames me for her grandsons problems. At one point she told my partner he should never have left the child’s mother!!!! He was suicidal by the time he left-his wife drove him crazy. I reckon the child’s mother is a P/sociopath too.

Di found a great link from the BBC News here in the UK about genetic predisposition and also one on Ian Huntley which you have probably seen by now. But here are some more though not the one I was thinking of. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4419959.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4575551.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3301685.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/events03/uk/soham/verdict/nb_site.ram

this is a video which shows how cool he was before being arrested then his fake act afterwards. You will find loads more links from these.

I did start to keep a journal before the kid went off to boarding school and must get back into the habit when he is back next week. These journals read like the ramblings of a mad woman. Too true I don’t let him know anything that is going on---not even in my eyes. He is constantly checking for signs he has pushed buttons Sometimes I do the enigmatic smile and that does throw him. It can be difficult to keep it up though so if it gets too bad I walk down the road muttering every curse I can think of until I get rid of the immediate anger. (I’m beginning to recognise the mad woman in me now! LOL)

You are right about the child’s immaturity but he can still manipulate quite a few people outside the family. He does the” cute little boy trick” on his best behaviour for outsiders and gets treated like a baby-he is 13 but looks about 9 years old. It’s obvious people think it’s me that has the problem because Mr Cutie couldn’t possibly do the things I say he does. We have even had poop smeared all over the bathroom and towels but who would believe that???? Strange thing is he doesn’t seem to think a consequence of that might be that I will tell everyone what he has done.

Thanks for taking the time and interest it means a lot and I can even feel my sense of humour coming back…..although tomorrow will change that when he is home for a weeks holiday. If I can swing it I hope to send him to his gran for a few days.

Best regards
Jan

**edited to make links clickable, Di


Edited by Dianne E. (05/26/05 08:20 AM)

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#4217 - 05/26/05 03:05 PM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi Jan,

Thank you for your kind words. No, don’t think I wanna go for a degree in psychology at this point in life. In the states, nothing short of a master’s degree will get you anywhere. Besides, then I’d be charging people to “help” them. LOL. By the way, I liked the “chocolate teapot” analogy. Never heard that one before. Good one. LOL

I tuned into your frustration cause I’ve been there several times (in stuff that didn’t involve P’s) on a variety of issues. I know the feeling of running around setting off fire alarms and people treating you as if you’re a little whacky because they don’t recognize the about to be disaster coming. Any more, I’ve learned to keep my mouth shut and just do “behind the scene” damage control. This is not because I care so much about being thought of as “whacked” but more because no one pays any attention and it’s too frustrating. I’ve gotten quite a few, “wish I had listened to you” after the fact, but then it’s too late. So, I put my energy now into the damage control end of it.

Here’s a little “refresher” for you because I know you already know this stuff. Besides, you’re a little “scattered” right now. (Small wonder with all you are trying to do and balance.)

A P child will most likely be a “slow” developer. (emotional maturity) What comes naturally to a normal child the P must learn. And it’s not like a learning process as we go thru it. The normal person understands how he/she feels about something and is capable of recognizing that others will have similar feelings – empathy. If we told someone we thought their house felt as though it had a draft, you probably mean the house seems to have air coming in where it shouldn’t be. The P may only know one meaning of that word and cannot place it in the context of the situation. Draft to the P may mean, “plan”. Also, you may have caused some hurt feelings by telling the homeowner this. Again, the P cannot place the context of the situation unless he has been confronted with an almost identical situation and has *memorized* the acceptable/correct response. The P is incapable of transferring the “emotional process” across varied situations and apply a general rule to it. P’s also do not attach “emotion” to a given word. They only understand the literal meaning of the word. This also goes along with their careful watching of us. This again is how they learn. They sort out what is acceptable and what is not. During that process they also learn a lot about certain individuals that you or I may never pick up on.

Mr. Cutie is learning how to “charm” people. P’s also use the pitiful act to play on our emotions, thus manipulating us to their own ends. By the way, television family sit-coms are learning tools for P’s. Helps them get a sense for what is acceptable, funny, not funny, sad, etc. Try watching a show with a P, but don’t laugh when it’s funny, and neither will the P (that’s if there is no “laugh track” included on the program).

Mr. Cutie demonstrates a lack of conscience by lying and stealing. His own needs are met with no consideration of others, or of the consequences. P’s, with very high frequency, fail to consider the consequences of any behavior.

There is no “therapy” or “help” for a P, (no matter what country you are in) so you need to stop looking for that. We have no technology/medicine available to treat a psychopath. In actuality, we are only just beginning to "understand" it. This is why the psychologist told you “therapy” would probably make the child worse. In therapy, P’s just learn how to manipulate people better. By telling you that, the psychologist confirmed what you suspect without OUTRIGHT STATING that he/she thought the child has psychopathic tendencies.

What you really need is some advice on how to deal with the child. Circumvention and “damage control”. You cannot help the child, but you and your partner need help as it strains your relationship and both you and your partner’s own individual sanity. Your partner will need special consideration as it is his son, and there is greater emotional involvement for him. You are the “outsider” in relation to your partner’s family and the tendency there will be to place the blame on you. Right now, you are the only one involved who is looking at the reality of the situation and attempting to deal with it effectively. You keep running into brick walls and others not believing you, which would place a strain on any rational person, and you have begun to question yourself and your sanity.

With your journal, try to keep it aimed at a “scientific” approach. Keep your emotions out of it. Keep a separate journal for yourself if you feel compelled to record your emotions. On a “positive” side, you get to observe a little P learning and adapting and you can capture it all. Maybe turn it into a “best seller” later??

Jan, you are an intelligent, capable and caring individual, the type of person I would want as a friend and in my corner. By the time this is over and done, YOU will probably deserve a degree in Psychology. Laughter is good medicine.

Hope the visit goes by quickly for your sake!

Best regards,
MCN

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#4220 - 05/28/05 12:35 PM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

The good news is…. Mr Cutie has gone to his gran’s today. He came home from school mid-day Friday (yesterday) and we took him out to buy his birthday present - a football shirt with a name printed on the back. I paid for the shirt and it went off to be printed. While we were waiting we happened to make eye contact WOW the reaction! He pulled faces at me and swore under his breath but I just did the “enigmatic smile” routine. My partner missed the whole act but I did tell him later. Imagine the scene …me paying for a very expensive present for a kid who treats me like dirt! I have never smacked him, I really want to but I know if I start I will never stop because I’ve got 3 years of aggression to get out of my system.

That kid has got weirder since he was last home. He went to visit our neighbours son but didn’t stay long and the feedback we got from the other kid was “what’s going on with R? “ Last night we had dinner with our friend and she was also subjected to his weirdo act-her face was picture. He did it to me this morning too but I didn’t respond, he was talking like a toddler but doesn’t do it quite so much in front of his father. Even so his father doesn’t have ANY experience with kids and hasn’t a clue how kids/teenagers should be. It is now becoming apparent to everyone that his behaviour is not normal because of the feedback I’m getting BUT because he is not my kid and it’s obvious I don’t like him people are not scared of telling me how they feel even though they wouldn’t say the same things to his father.

I have started a journal again but now he has gone it will be spasmodic. The reason he was so keen to go to his gran’s is because she has been on holiday and has some gifts and birthday presents for him. He hasn’t got a relationship with his father and couldn’t care less whether he spends any time with him but I’m also surprised that his gran is desperate to have him at the expense of his father having time with him-luckily her selfishness is our gain. Hopefully she will keep him most of the week so our lives will be peaceful. She will shower him with gifts and unconditional love (so he doesn’t have to work on making any relationships) and she will be happy….but not as happy as me!!!

I get the feeling now that my partner is beginning to accept what is going on here, he is a very intelligent person but just needs some time to face the reality of it.

Your comments on TV sitcoms was so accurate- he never laughs in the right places when watching something like The Simpsons- he only laughs after everyone else obviously picking up on what others do.

Going back to an earlier issue about me finding the kid on the kitchen floor with his face buried in the peed on bedding-he wasn’t just sniffing-he was going to sleep on it. He was still wearing his school uniform too (in the UK schoolkids wear proper trousers, shirt, tie and blazer) so you can imagine how strange that was.

On the positive side, things are getting so bizarre that I feel people are starting to listen to me and seeing it’s not me just being a wicked stepmother. This is what needs to happen for all of us for others to take notice- so OK the people we are dealing with don’t affect them to any extent but there might come a time when they are faced with a P. Hopefully they will dredge up what we are saying now.

Things could have been worse this week but it’s turned out better than I could have hoped-life is not all bad. I think I will drag my partner down to the pub now so we can have a bit of fun. We live in Shakespeare county so have some lovely old English pubs.

Have a good weekend

Jan

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