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#4204 - 06/04/05 07:11 PM Observing Fledgling Psychopaths
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi

These are just some of the observations I have made about the RAD/Fledgling I am living with. Has anyone else noticed similar patterns of behaviour, especially in younger Ps?

Likes one to one relationships otherwise triangulates or acts out
Doesn’t sing, dance or listen to music
Doesn’t tell or understand jokes
Asks if I’m being sarcastic, joking or I really mean something
Doesn’t laugh at humorous TV programmes but will laugh at people hurting themselves
Never relates humorous incidents that have happened unless being malicious
Sneers rather than laughs
Uses other people’s expressions and even other people’s questions
Repeats what he has heard other people say as though they were his own thoughts/opinions
Copies other people’s behaviour or way of doing things as though it is his own
Reads only fantasy books never ones about people and relationships
Hypervigilant-needs to know everyone’s business even when they are out of sight
Wants to know what everyone has done throughout the day when he has been at school
Never has dreams or nightmares
Never gets up in the night (even for the toilet-still wets the bed)
Never discusses memories of anything from the past
Does facial contortions when being spoken to
Never strokes the cat but will pick it up and drop it
Terrified of dogs and other peoples’ cats
Terrified of water even the shower
Refuses to wash, clean teeth or change clothes but gets annoyed if told he smells
Never comments on beautiful scenery, sunsets, rainbows, pictures etc doesn’t seem to notice anything of beauty
Never praises anybody or anything
Constantly asks the time even when wearing a watch
Asks ridiculous questions he obviously knows the answers to and repeatedly when the same situation arises again
Never expresses any feelings for anybody even his grandmother who dotes on him
Never thinks of doing something nice for anybody even to repay their generosity
Never helps around the house and gets aggressive when asked
Bodges chores so he won’t be asked to help with anything
Looks, acts and sounds a lot younger than 13 years old, very babyish manner including speech
Closes the blinds and takes all his clothes off to go to the toilet
Stands so close to his father when we are out that it is difficult to move
Steals things however trivial
Never cries
Never shows any sadness even when others are very upset or in pain
Has an addiction to chocolate and will spend all his money on it and hides to eat it
Never shared his chocolate or anything else with anyone

There are LOADS of other behaviours but these are the ones that come to mind at the moment.

Jan


Edited by Dianne E. (06/04/05 05:33 PM)

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#4208 - 05/25/05 05:53 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

Your comments are so insightful you must have much more experience about Ps than I have. Do you have any training as a psychologist?

I know that the future is pretty bleak and we just have to get through the next few years with our sanity in tact. I am fully expecting the child’s offending behaviour to catch up with him soon. Last time when he stole a gold wedding ring from our friends house I told him I was going to take it to the police (he told us he had found it) and that got a reaction from him so next time I find anything that is not his I will use that again. The police in the UK will call to “chat” with a child to try to avoid any further offences.

I don’t believe for one minute it will stop him but it’s more to do with him having been brought to the attention of the police on numerous occasions and it being on file.

As for the child’s father…he has not yet fully accepted the situation and I suppose is in denial to an extent. He often uses the “all kids do that” excuse but conversely he seems to be cutting himself off emotionally and each time the child takes him to the edge he cuts off a little more. I would never do it but I know he would send the child back to his mother if I said I wanted to leave so it is obvious he accepts that our future together is more important than trying to change his son-it will never happen.

That sounds a terrible thing to say but he knows in reality his son is a parasite and will drift off to his next host as soon as he can. The child engineered the situation with his mother so she got rid of him to his father who spoiled him every time he had him for visits-he preferred the gifts to living with his mother and half brother. (There are no other children involved, my son has grown up and left home and is an absolute delight.)

The child constantly tries to drive wedge between us and I know it’s because he is frustrated that I can see right through him and he wants rid of me so he can go back to manipulating his father. This is what I mean about him only wanting one to one situations as he can’t control two people at one time, especially me!

I know what you mean about people acknowledging at a later date what I am flagging up now, your comment helps greatly because you fully understand what I’m saying. It will happen but at what price? How many people will be hurt in the process? I don’t know if you are aware of Ian Huntley who murdered two little girls in the UK recently. With the benefit of hindsight people who knew him as a child said “why wasn’t something done about him when he was a child?”
I am saying it about this kid now and I don’t think even his own father realises what COULD happen in the future. Who else do I tell?

My partner is a great person and only tries to see the best in everything so the worst thing I could say about him is he is being naďve here. He is very astute in everything else. I know it’s easier for me because I don’t like the child (that is the polite version) whereas I suppose he is going through a grieving process for the son he has lost.
As far as I can see he has two choices, either to project the image of the son he wants onto this child or to accept his “death”.

I would be more than happy if this kid went back to his mother-so OK she is inadequate but I really don’t care. I think he will get picked up by the police sooner because she won’t put any boundaries up for him. We keep a tight rein so he doesn’t get into serious trouble.

Thanks for that info about impaired olfactory senses, I will look into that-it sounds very possible. I think he actually likes the smell of pee because I once found him lying on the kitchen floor with his face buried in his peed on bedding which was waiting to go into the washing machine.

I will try and find the link to the Ian Huntley article if you or any of the other members are interested.

A big thank you for listening, it really helps.

Jan

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#4209 - 05/25/05 06:42 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: ]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi, I did a google search and here is some info on

Ian Huntley

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#4210 - 05/25/05 08:01 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110

<br>
<br>I have to tell you that the situation you are in truly makes my heart hurt for you. You are really between a rock and a hard place. Your frustration comes thru loud and clear to me. However, you also appear to have an inner strength and fortitude. You also sound intelligent and insightful.
<br>
<br>I AM NOT a psychologist (only took introductory courses in college). SOMETIMES I can be very insightful and other times not. Perhaps it has more to do with what is being communicated and the manner it is being communicated. I do not have much patience for whiney and hand wringing people. I learned a long time ago there are many things that one must do on his/her own; no one else can do them for you. And, I am very analytical to a FAULT. It drives ME crazy sometimes. That’s pretty bad.
<br>
<br>You have taken the bull by the horns!! What comes thru to me is that you are doing this because you are a loving and caring person. Even more commendable as this is not your own son. You even admit you wouldn’t mind him going back to his mother. I do admire your directness and honesty. There are many issues in your dilemma. You are dealing with the father, the son, the family (who will see you as an outsider basically), the professionals and who ever else figures in. And you are attempting to balance it all, and seem to be doing an excellent job at it.
<br>
<br>You are the one who knows and can assess the personalities involved here, so I am hesitant to give advice on that score, as you seem to have it “under control”. I can only offer you my observations and possibly some strategies. You will have to test them out as you see fit.
<br>
<br>First, this child is the child of your significant other/husband (?). I’m sure you have already pondered (and live with) what it must be like to have to admit your child is a psychopath. (Just the thought of having to do that makes me cringe.) On top of that, there is NOTHING you can do to help your own child! I would probably go off the deep end if I were in that situation. (I have two children and I would lay down my life for them!) This will be a great sadness on the father for the rest of his life. And when the time comes, things will probably be quite miserable. This you have already foreseen and pondered.
<br>
<br>From the information you have shared about this child, I assume he has not quite matured enough yet to be able to master the “art of manipulation” to the extent past his immediate family. But, in due time, he will. This gives you a big advantage now coupled with the fact you have seen thru him.
<br>
<br>So far, you seem to be doing well with this. My suggestion is to keep a journal/log of every little thing you pick up on him (like the list you posted earlier). I am suggesting this because our memory can be unreliable at times. Keep this journal somewhere where the kid can’t get to it. (It would only serve to educate him) This means you may have to keep it well hidden and under lock and key. This will only serve to assist you and may come in handy in some way other than we might suppose at the moment. Also, writing things down may help you “see” patterns.
<br>
<br>My observations, reading, intuition, advice from psychologists, and experience gleaned much by my own bumbling onto it has led me to the conclusion of one of the best defenses we possess when dealing with a psychopath is to be DEVOID of EMOTION. It is MY hypothesis. What I am telling you here is that it is strictly amateur.
<br>
<br>If you have read my other posts, you know I suggest this. My own experience, it worked. And I don’t claim to have a lot. Also, my observation is that many people (and professionals have written about it) experience the feeling of “stolen energy” after being around psychopaths for a length of time. I don’t know why it happens. No one does at this point. However, my view is that there are many things we do not understand or know why they occur, we just know they do. Therefore, I’ve concluded that “somehow” “some way” psychopaths have this ability. There has to be a reason for this. Again, what it is, I have no clue. But basically I would have to assume that somehow, someway psychopaths “need” this energy somehow. I’ve pondered the thought that a “quick” energy source for a psychopath would be to cause some commotion stirring up “negative” energy they could feed from.
<br>
<br>So, when the child is parading around nude in front of you, act like there’s not a thing wrong. Just as tho’ he had his clothes on. Sounds to me like you have done this to a degree. However, I agree with you that there are limits and all children need to learn there are certain rules as to how one will behave in the home. Obviously, the child already has some awareness of what distresses you and what doesn’t. Manipulators learn very quickly what your hot button are and they learn when to push them. From personal experience, when they push a hot button of yours, and they do not get the “usual” response and you do an about face with them, you mess their game up. They will begin to pursue all your other hot buttons and when they come up blank, well you can watch them go into a tailspin. For them, it’s like “now what do I do?”
<br>
<br>This is a strategy you will have to give some thought to and try out on your own and see how it works for you. Keep in mind (tho’ your Psychopath hasn’t enough experience yet), that in general psychopaths are very adept at reading body language. If your little finger twitches, they probably know it. It is not easy to make yourself devoid of emotion, but you can do it.
<br>
<br>Your observation of the child smelling his dirty laundry is interesting. Makes me wonder if he is trying to “learn” what are offensive odors and what are considered pleasant. Possibly this is something else a psychopath needs to “learn.”
<br>
<br>I am interested in reading the Ian Huntley article. Our “newspeople” in the States often act as tho’ the USA is the only country worth reporting on and in order to get a better world picture, we Yanks have to depend on the British. Sad, but true. (Many of us here are very distraught over it, but the powers that be drown us out).
<br>
<br>I am more than happy to toss ideas back and forth with you. In summation, I will say that the best you yourself can do is “damage control”. You know what’s coming down the pike, even if no one else sees it now. With regard to bringing the child to the “attention” of the authorities, this may be a good strategy. If only to get some record of his behavior. However, I think the negative side of this strategy is that it will probably not work for very long in being a deterrent to the child and he will get some of his “education” on manipulation thru this after a period of time.
<br>
<br>Again, my heart is with you on this.
<br>
<br>Best regards,
<br>MCN
<br>

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#4212 - 05/25/05 10:42 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Mags Offline
member

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 2
I feel I should weigh in here as I am in a similar situation (which I have posted about on the "Family" forum). My significant other has ane ex-wife that's a P, and also a daughter who I believe is also a P. She is very abusive to pets and is extremely manipulative. She is only 7 years old, but I have watched this behavior progress for more than 3 years. It is much different than the manipulation that I see in most girls, including my own daughters. She also has a constant need for attention, tons of restless energy, as if her mind is racing at all times.

Anyway, I haven't spoken to her father about this because I really don't see at this point that it would be at all helpful to him. He doesn't see through her behavior at all, and it took him more than 10 years to see through his ex-wife and she is a classic, text-book psychopath/sociopath. I know it would break his heart into a million pieces to have me tell him that I believe his daughter is the same, and then what is he going to do about it? Therapy won't help, no one would believe it anyway and he can't cut off contact with his seven year old. It is a terrible, terrible situation.

For myself, I am trying to decide whether I should end this realtionship based mainly on this, that I can see what is coming down the pike and I'm not too sure I can handle it, knowing that she will eventually, as this boy is trying to do, drive a wedge between us, manipulate her father against me, manipulate my kids, etc. I can deal with the P ex-wife, since I don't have to interact with her, but I don't have that same ability with the daughter.

It is a tough situation to be in. Just want you to know that I understand exactly what you are going through.

I also wanted to comment on the energy drain subject. There is a movie out now on DVD called "What the bleep are we here for" which is a combination documentary/drama. There is a physicist interviewed in that movie who studies energy & has written a book about how water crystals are manipulated & formed by human energy. He did some sort of study with placing a glass of water in a room with people considered to be upbeat & positive & noted the formation of the crystals in the water, which were always formed. He did the same thing with people with very negative energy (I can't remember if they were clinically depressed or what) and NO crystals formed at all. It is scientific fact that human beings emit electromagnetic energy, so it is very possible that those with low electromagetic energy must draw their supply from another source. Perhaps P's have low supply? Just a thought.

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#4213 - 05/25/05 04:45 PM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: Mags]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi Mags,

Thanks for sharing that information on the "energy" thing. I am very interested in it. I really think there is something to the energy thing. I wish I had an answer to it. However, the example you give involves positive energy. P's seem to cause a lot of negative energy. Gosh, even more to ponder now. Another piece in this puzzle!!

Thanks for pointing this out.

MCN

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#4214 - 05/25/05 05:08 PM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi Mags, the person you mentioned who was in that movie is Dr. Masauro Emoto, The True Power of Water.

The True Power of Water book review...

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#4216 - 05/26/05 06:55 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

Have you ever thought about taking a degree in psychology? I am amazed how accurately you grasp my situation and feelings, especially the frustration. I really wish there was professional in the UK that I could discuss this with but as you know without a diagnosis there is no help available. The child psychologist even said there was nothing she could offer us.

I too dislike whingers because it doesn’t help, I think that is why this forum is so useful, no-one comes here just looking for sympathy….they want information and answers.
I wanted to know that I had explored every avenue before I give up on this kid but unfortunately I have given for my own sanity. I can’t work alone on this and though his father wants to do his best he is out of his depth and asks me to guide him through parenting. It’s just not the same with a P child, you can’t use the same techniques and it is physically and mentally draining. There are no rewards, I get nothing back from the relationship with this kid, it’s like being a host for a parasite. There is something in this “energy draining” thing but I haven’t quite finalised my thinking on it. It could just be the adrenalin that is constantly pumping round the body or the parasite sucking the life out of me.

My sisters have been a great support (one is a senior probation officer specialising in family welfare and the other was a prison officer until last year responsible for running rehab courses throughout the UK –but she couldn’t stand the manipulators any longer as they would do or say anything to get early parole)

My partner and I are not married and not likely to be in the near future as I have no intention of becoming a stepmother. My partner’s mother is as useful as a chocolate tea-pot and she blames me for her grandsons problems. At one point she told my partner he should never have left the child’s mother!!!! He was suicidal by the time he left-his wife drove him crazy. I reckon the child’s mother is a P/sociopath too.

Di found a great link from the BBC News here in the UK about genetic predisposition and also one on Ian Huntley which you have probably seen by now. But here are some more though not the one I was thinking of. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4419959.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4575551.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3301685.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/events03/uk/soham/verdict/nb_site.ram

this is a video which shows how cool he was before being arrested then his fake act afterwards. You will find loads more links from these.

I did start to keep a journal before the kid went off to boarding school and must get back into the habit when he is back next week. These journals read like the ramblings of a mad woman. Too true I don’t let him know anything that is going on---not even in my eyes. He is constantly checking for signs he has pushed buttons Sometimes I do the enigmatic smile and that does throw him. It can be difficult to keep it up though so if it gets too bad I walk down the road muttering every curse I can think of until I get rid of the immediate anger. (I’m beginning to recognise the mad woman in me now! LOL)

You are right about the child’s immaturity but he can still manipulate quite a few people outside the family. He does the” cute little boy trick” on his best behaviour for outsiders and gets treated like a baby-he is 13 but looks about 9 years old. It’s obvious people think it’s me that has the problem because Mr Cutie couldn’t possibly do the things I say he does. We have even had poop smeared all over the bathroom and towels but who would believe that???? Strange thing is he doesn’t seem to think a consequence of that might be that I will tell everyone what he has done.

Thanks for taking the time and interest it means a lot and I can even feel my sense of humour coming back…..although tomorrow will change that when he is home for a weeks holiday. If I can swing it I hope to send him to his gran for a few days.

Best regards
Jan

**edited to make links clickable, Di


Edited by Dianne E. (05/26/05 08:20 AM)

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#4217 - 05/26/05 03:05 PM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi Jan,

Thank you for your kind words. No, don’t think I wanna go for a degree in psychology at this point in life. In the states, nothing short of a master’s degree will get you anywhere. Besides, then I’d be charging people to “help” them. LOL. By the way, I liked the “chocolate teapot” analogy. Never heard that one before. Good one. LOL

I tuned into your frustration cause I’ve been there several times (in stuff that didn’t involve P’s) on a variety of issues. I know the feeling of running around setting off fire alarms and people treating you as if you’re a little whacky because they don’t recognize the about to be disaster coming. Any more, I’ve learned to keep my mouth shut and just do “behind the scene” damage control. This is not because I care so much about being thought of as “whacked” but more because no one pays any attention and it’s too frustrating. I’ve gotten quite a few, “wish I had listened to you” after the fact, but then it’s too late. So, I put my energy now into the damage control end of it.

Here’s a little “refresher” for you because I know you already know this stuff. Besides, you’re a little “scattered” right now. (Small wonder with all you are trying to do and balance.)

A P child will most likely be a “slow” developer. (emotional maturity) What comes naturally to a normal child the P must learn. And it’s not like a learning process as we go thru it. The normal person understands how he/she feels about something and is capable of recognizing that others will have similar feelings – empathy. If we told someone we thought their house felt as though it had a draft, you probably mean the house seems to have air coming in where it shouldn’t be. The P may only know one meaning of that word and cannot place it in the context of the situation. Draft to the P may mean, “plan”. Also, you may have caused some hurt feelings by telling the homeowner this. Again, the P cannot place the context of the situation unless he has been confronted with an almost identical situation and has *memorized* the acceptable/correct response. The P is incapable of transferring the “emotional process” across varied situations and apply a general rule to it. P’s also do not attach “emotion” to a given word. They only understand the literal meaning of the word. This also goes along with their careful watching of us. This again is how they learn. They sort out what is acceptable and what is not. During that process they also learn a lot about certain individuals that you or I may never pick up on.

Mr. Cutie is learning how to “charm” people. P’s also use the pitiful act to play on our emotions, thus manipulating us to their own ends. By the way, television family sit-coms are learning tools for P’s. Helps them get a sense for what is acceptable, funny, not funny, sad, etc. Try watching a show with a P, but don’t laugh when it’s funny, and neither will the P (that’s if there is no “laugh track” included on the program).

Mr. Cutie demonstrates a lack of conscience by lying and stealing. His own needs are met with no consideration of others, or of the consequences. P’s, with very high frequency, fail to consider the consequences of any behavior.

There is no “therapy” or “help” for a P, (no matter what country you are in) so you need to stop looking for that. We have no technology/medicine available to treat a psychopath. In actuality, we are only just beginning to "understand" it. This is why the psychologist told you “therapy” would probably make the child worse. In therapy, P’s just learn how to manipulate people better. By telling you that, the psychologist confirmed what you suspect without OUTRIGHT STATING that he/she thought the child has psychopathic tendencies.

What you really need is some advice on how to deal with the child. Circumvention and “damage control”. You cannot help the child, but you and your partner need help as it strains your relationship and both you and your partner’s own individual sanity. Your partner will need special consideration as it is his son, and there is greater emotional involvement for him. You are the “outsider” in relation to your partner’s family and the tendency there will be to place the blame on you. Right now, you are the only one involved who is looking at the reality of the situation and attempting to deal with it effectively. You keep running into brick walls and others not believing you, which would place a strain on any rational person, and you have begun to question yourself and your sanity.

With your journal, try to keep it aimed at a “scientific” approach. Keep your emotions out of it. Keep a separate journal for yourself if you feel compelled to record your emotions. On a “positive” side, you get to observe a little P learning and adapting and you can capture it all. Maybe turn it into a “best seller” later??

Jan, you are an intelligent, capable and caring individual, the type of person I would want as a friend and in my corner. By the time this is over and done, YOU will probably deserve a degree in Psychology. Laughter is good medicine.

Hope the visit goes by quickly for your sake!

Best regards,
MCN

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#4220 - 05/28/05 12:35 PM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

The good news is…. Mr Cutie has gone to his gran’s today. He came home from school mid-day Friday (yesterday) and we took him out to buy his birthday present - a football shirt with a name printed on the back. I paid for the shirt and it went off to be printed. While we were waiting we happened to make eye contact WOW the reaction! He pulled faces at me and swore under his breath but I just did the “enigmatic smile” routine. My partner missed the whole act but I did tell him later. Imagine the scene …me paying for a very expensive present for a kid who treats me like dirt! I have never smacked him, I really want to but I know if I start I will never stop because I’ve got 3 years of aggression to get out of my system.

That kid has got weirder since he was last home. He went to visit our neighbours son but didn’t stay long and the feedback we got from the other kid was “what’s going on with R? “ Last night we had dinner with our friend and she was also subjected to his weirdo act-her face was picture. He did it to me this morning too but I didn’t respond, he was talking like a toddler but doesn’t do it quite so much in front of his father. Even so his father doesn’t have ANY experience with kids and hasn’t a clue how kids/teenagers should be. It is now becoming apparent to everyone that his behaviour is not normal because of the feedback I’m getting BUT because he is not my kid and it’s obvious I don’t like him people are not scared of telling me how they feel even though they wouldn’t say the same things to his father.

I have started a journal again but now he has gone it will be spasmodic. The reason he was so keen to go to his gran’s is because she has been on holiday and has some gifts and birthday presents for him. He hasn’t got a relationship with his father and couldn’t care less whether he spends any time with him but I’m also surprised that his gran is desperate to have him at the expense of his father having time with him-luckily her selfishness is our gain. Hopefully she will keep him most of the week so our lives will be peaceful. She will shower him with gifts and unconditional love (so he doesn’t have to work on making any relationships) and she will be happy….but not as happy as me!!!

I get the feeling now that my partner is beginning to accept what is going on here, he is a very intelligent person but just needs some time to face the reality of it.

Your comments on TV sitcoms was so accurate- he never laughs in the right places when watching something like The Simpsons- he only laughs after everyone else obviously picking up on what others do.

Going back to an earlier issue about me finding the kid on the kitchen floor with his face buried in the peed on bedding-he wasn’t just sniffing-he was going to sleep on it. He was still wearing his school uniform too (in the UK schoolkids wear proper trousers, shirt, tie and blazer) so you can imagine how strange that was.

On the positive side, things are getting so bizarre that I feel people are starting to listen to me and seeing it’s not me just being a wicked stepmother. This is what needs to happen for all of us for others to take notice- so OK the people we are dealing with don’t affect them to any extent but there might come a time when they are faced with a P. Hopefully they will dredge up what we are saying now.

Things could have been worse this week but it’s turned out better than I could have hoped-life is not all bad. I think I will drag my partner down to the pub now so we can have a bit of fun. We live in Shakespeare county so have some lovely old English pubs.

Have a good weekend

Jan

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#4221 - 05/28/05 01:47 PM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hey there Jan,

I envy you being where you are. Sounds like fun to run off to a pub. If I had to narrow it down to three countries to visit, it would be Ireland, England and France.

Glad to hear you will get a reprieve from Mr. Cutie. Makes things a little easier.

It sounds as though this is an only child for your partner. That’s so sad. I’m sure it will take a bit of time for him to become resigned to the fact of his son’s problem and I know I don’t have to explain it to you, as you are a parent yourself. I know you wish to be vindicated as well.

It sounds like Mr. Cutie is in a p type of adolescent stage. Developmentally, he is already behind, but being a p, he has yet to sort out how to “get what he wants,” so his frustration point will be reached easier and frequently. Being in a boarding school may actually be a good thing, for now. Sort of limits his p “learning”. His friends finding him strange will probably happen with more and more frequency too. Very interesting. So is the face making you describe. It makes me wonder if in the P brain as they observe us in "relaxed" conversations with others if this is how they see us. Our faces expressing wide ranges of emotions. To them it must look like a lot of contortions.?

In your shoes, I would try to read all the info I could get my hands on about p children, especially those written by clinical-type people. You may get some clues about his behavior and how to “effectively” deal with him.

I can imagine how you feel buying him a nice gift and his lack of appreciation, but he’s not just a “spoiled brat” he’s a really pathetic creature. Unfortunately, you have to deal with him for awhile longer. Yeah, I’d probably wanna smack him too!! You must have a lot of patience.

Mr. Cutie’s sleeping on top of his dirty laundry is bizarre. Makes me wonder what’s up with that behavior. I wonder how a psychologist would explain that one. I do know that p's don’t have the same aversions to “filth” as we do. I remember reading about one who said he could pick up a half-eaten apple off a public restroom floor and finish it off. UGH!!!

I also wonder how long it will be till Mr. Cutie goes a bridge too far with his gran. THAT’S gonna have major implications if/when that one happens. One you want to do your best to prepare for. Depending on how that goes down, I’m sure she’ll want to blame you if she can throw it your way. Even if it’s like, “Well, if you had spent more time with your son instead of your girlfriend….” I’m sure you get the picture. But, as you’ve noted, other people are beginning to realize what you have been saying all along. A victory, but not very sweet, is it?

You do have a good grasp on the situation and have been very astute dealing with it. At least you know that this is a story that’s not going to have a happy ending to it as far as the child is concerned.

As I said at the beginning of this, I wish I was going off to a pub for some fun, but I have to work this weekend and the real downside to that is that it is a “three-day” weekend in the states as we have a holiday.

Take care and enjoy yourself!!

Best regards,
MCN

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#4222 - 05/30/05 01:47 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

I really feel my partner is starting to accept what is going on with his kid and to be very brutal he doesn’t like him much either. There is nothing to like about him because he gives nothing, not even a smile. Relationships are a two way thing otherwise it’s just projection-we have an image of the person we would really like them to be.
I feel this comes through very strongly from the people on this forum. They are sharing their bad experiences but still haven’t yet come to terms with the person they actually have.
It is so much easier for me because I have absolutely no affection for this kid and wouldn’t care less if he disappeared. I have given myself the right to feel and say these things which lifted a huge burden and hopefully others that are suffering a P will give themselves that right too. This forum is so important to pass that message on and to know they have others supporting them through it.

The face pulling I experienced this time was just sheer anger that we made eye contact. RAD/Fledgling Ps don’t make eye contact with anyone unless they are lying and on this occasion he wasn’t lying so resented it happening-it wasn’t on his terms. He constantly pulls faces but those are very different and from what I have read are likely to be the manifestation of Tourrette’s Syndrome which is not usually the swearing syndrome people think it is. Much like people think all Ps are murderers.

I have read what limited information is available but that in itself is an issue as kids are not diagnosed so as there is no official child P there is no information. The nearest we can get is saying the kid has RAD. It is thought RAD is brought about by the lack of mother/child bonding and with a lot of help they can “learn” to attach or at least learn that it’s possible. Some kids may be able to do this eventually but some kids are just born that way (referring to the BBC article DI posted) and nothing will change them.

I think it would take something major for this kid to turn his gran against him, it seems the more he does the more she tried to cushion him. He has learned to manipulate her so well. It is her only grandchild and always will be, the son that lives with her is gay and is a narcissistic personality…..talk about genes!! The kid has it from both sides, his mother and paternal uncle. You are so right when you say she will blame me ….she already does! She won’t accept the truth and will go to her grave believing that which is another reason I have mentally ditched the kid. She lets him know she doesn’t approve of me so when he comes back from her place he is even worse than normal and feels entitled to treat me like dirt.

He is such a liar that he could be telling her anything-he has already ruined the relationship my partner had with her because she thinks I have my partner under my thumb. She went mad when she saw we had printed a list of house rules on the noticeboard. We got so fed up with repeating what was expected of him (and us too) to make life easier for us all. The rules were simple like washing and cleaning teeth every day, being polite, not leaving lights on all over the house, not leaving taps running, fridge doors wide open etc. He then knew he had her approval to disregard anything we said.
She says these things in front of him. I can’t fight her so I keep clear of her. After all she is my partners mother and he must love her even though their relationship now only consists of pleasantries. Of course she blames me for that relationship breakdown too. When he asked her to support us by being consistent with the kid she refused.

Thank goodness for the pub!

Hope you enjoy some of the holiday weekend.

Jan

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#4223 - 05/30/05 06:39 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi there Jan,

Well, granny doesn’t sound like she’s very accepting of reality. Doesn’t sound like she’d be real accepting of you without the child problem either. The problem for you is that your support system (where Mr. Cutie is concerned) is virtually nil. At least you know where it is you are being undermined. (Thank goodness for small favors, eh?)

Because we are aware that the prognosis for a little P is that he will progressively get worse with time, there WILL be a major event with gran. In a childish way, he is able to manipulate her now. As he matures, his demands will become greater. Believe it or not now, she too will reach her limit with him, because he will push her there. One future scenario, (given what you are saying now), is in his later teenage years if his penchant for lying and stealing continues and he steals from gran (possibly something she really treasures). Another: he begins to make demands on her for money, and when she refuses one time he becomes violent with her. Another: he comes to the attention of the police and is jailed and she has to bail him out one too many times. Right now, all we can do is speculate, but these are real possibilities given what we know of P’s. What you are dealing with now is gonna seem like a cakewalk in a few years.

As far as the rules you’ve had to post, anyone who is aware of the situation understands and, personally, I think it was a wise thing to do given the situation. I don’t know how far you can go with her in the situation and what is comfortable for you. If I felt I had the “authority” (meaning with your partner’s blessing), I would have calmly told her that in your home you and your partner have your own rules. She may not agree with them, but your expectation is that she respects them. (I faced a somewhat similar issue, in philosophy, with my own mother years ago when my children were little and were visiting her – we lived on two different sides of the country – my kids rang me one day crying telling me that their gran was insisting they eat some particular food. I had to get my mother on the phone and explain to her that in my home and in my child rearing practice, I did not insist my children eat certain foods they did not like. I explained to her that I didn’t like it when she did that to me as a child and that I refuse to do it to my children and that I did not support her on the issue. She expressed her disagreement, which I had already acknowledged, but, out of respect, she gave up forcing the issue. I know this is minor compared to what you are up against and that your “mother-in-law” does not respect you either.) Of course here she is not going to support you and you know it’s going to be hell for you when Mr. Cutie returns. For what good it will do, you can both inform him that his gran has her rules and you have yours. Regardless of what gran does or thinks about them, he will be expected to comply or suffer the consequences. With a P you will have to do this with all calmness and composure and together so that he is made aware there does exist a unity in this regard. Just sorta matter of fact, if you will. I think NO EMOTION tends to make them focus in a sense. (Sylvie and I were talking about boundaries and to a degree I think they work with a P.) And don't forget you have to spell out the consequences SPECIFICALLY for the P, as he cannot think this through for himself.

Yes, your partner is coming to terms with the fact that his child has some major problems, he may not LIKE his child as a person, but keep in mind that he does LOVE him. I have always reinforced this with my own children for different reasons. I may not like something they do, but I will always love them.

If it is possible, I would seek help from the professional who told you that therapy would make Mr. Cutie worse. Ask him/her for guidance in seeking a therapist/professional for you and your partner. If he/she can’t refer you, possibly maybe he/she can point you in the right direction. REMEMBER, this professional without outright stating (due to law and professional ethics he/she could not STATE the problem Mr. Cutie suffers from) did tell you he/she suspects the child is psychopathic, therefore treat the subject with that person DELICATELY. It is important here that you stress the help you are seeking is for you and your partner.

Dianne, the forum administrator, also seems to find the latest information and possibly she can steer you to some information. I did not realize the information available was so paltry.

Yep, Mr. Cutie probably makes up all sorts of horrible things about you. Most P’s practice this sort of behavior against people they view as obstacles to overcome. He also shares it with anyone who will listen to him. As for the face pulling, once he realizes this behavior only makes people think he is strange and they pull away from him, he will stop that action. In short, face pulling does not equate charming. This face pulling for him is probably some sort of adolescent behavior. You know how when you are an adolescent you do “dumb” things. This is probably just a dumb thing for an “adolescent P”. (emotionally behind, remember?)

Geez, Jan, you do have a rough road ahead. The paradox of it all is that the worse it gets, the better is will become as well. Fortunately, you are intelligent and astute and recognize this. I think the forum will offer clues, tho’ they may be hidden and it can be a place for you to come with questions and to let off steam. I enjoy sharing with you. I’ve only had to deal with a P in a relationship I was free to walk away from. You, on the other hand, aren’t in a relationship in that sense, nor is it a business/work-related encounter. You don’t walk away because you care about your partner. I thoroughly understand you don’t like the child and he just uses you, but you are giving it your best and I admire you for that. I think you can offer good insight as you are getting a much different view than most of us.

Today, I have off. Yeaaaaah!!

Have a good one.

Best regards,
MCN

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#4224 - 06/03/05 03:38 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

Well you were spot on again!

We got a phone call from gran last night, she has had the kid since Saturday and she has accepted he has “problems”. She was so angry with my partner and told him she thought the kid would turn out to be a delinquent and he had regressed to the level of a 5 year old etc, etc, etc -in fact all the things I have been saying.

BUT …..guess what? She blamed ME! She told my partner I had ruined her grandchild. When he went through the list of everything I had done to make his life good she ignored it, she also ignored being told he had stolen a wedding ring from our friends house, also that his own mother had got rid of him because he was impossible to live with and how history is repeating itself. She will not accept what he is and is lashing out trying to blame someone/something.

It was the most ridiculous conversation as she just isn’t with the program, she even said she didn’t believe in psychologists and we should never have taken him. She thinks boarding school is terrible and he should be at home being cuddled. YUK the thought of it-he never washes or cleans his teeth. We thought living with other kids at school would cure that problem along with the bedwetting but being realistic nothing will change him, he does exactly what he wants and doesn’t give a S*** about anyone else’s feelings or rights.

I’m actually pleased that this has happened because the kid is noticeably worse and it can’t be excused or ignored any longer. I feel relieved that my partner now has to fully face up to the issues rather than send his kid away and hope things will improve without intervention.
He told his mother that he doesn’t like his own kid, there is nothing to like about him. Even when I was working with this kid I can now see I never really warmed to him, the nearest I got to any emotion was to feel sorry for him but it was like working in professional capacity you need to be objective to do what is best for the child. We both put his needs first even to the point of me sleeping in a separate rooms so he didn’t feel left out of the relationship, we didn’t make any physical contact in front of him either. I suppose that is when things started to go badly wrong when we told him we were a couple even after we had spent months preparing the ground.

As I’ve said before Ps like to have one person at a time to deal with and even having a sibling seems to send a P “off on one” He lost control of his father at this point which is a direct correlation to what he did when his mother remarried and had another child. His behaviour became so bad (he was 6 years old at the time) she had to get rid of him.

I feel we are into the next stage of this problem and when he gets back I am going to confront him with everything I know he has done and what he is up to. I know the only reaction I will get is total silence but I want him to know that I know more than he thinks.

I saw a posting today where someone asked if others confronted their P and the reaction, I know this is slightly different as this P is only a teenager and not articulate and certainly has no insight into his own behaviour but I can predict the shrug of the shoulders and “do I care?” attitude.

I do agree with you that therapy for me would be useful and the psychologist did say if I needed to talk to her she would be very happy to do so but she couldn’t offer any help for the kid, I know they are busy people and didn’t want to take her time, she is a child psychologist and needs to deal with them first. There may be lots of kids she can really make a difference with. I have my support network of family and friends and this forum so that has got me through so far.

Today feels as though it’s going to be a turning point but that depends on my partner to an extent as I think he needs to let the kid know he can see through him too so we put up a united front. Unfortunately he doesn’t see most the kids manoeuvres but I’m not going to let that stand in the way-I will point them out to him as they occur. I don’t feel too good about that as he has enough to deal with without me being the moaning b**** but instinct tells me I’ve got to use this recent development to draw attention to how bad things really are.

The kid is back later today so I will keep you posted how things progress.

Jan

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#4225 - 06/03/05 06:58 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi Jan,

Your partner’s mother sounds like a real nightmare. The stereotypical “mother-in-law” royale! Your partner, being an only child, was probably smothered with affection in his young years. No woman will ever be good enough for her son and anything that ever goes wrong would be her fault because her son can do no wrong in her eyes. You know how that all goes, I’m sure. However, as you point out, it is becoming evident that Mr. Cutie has some major problems. Fortunately, your partner is aware that you are not the cause of his problem and is defending you to his mother. But, again as you are aware, this is only going to escalate. The problem will not only be Mr. Cutie, the other looming problem is going to be your relationship with the father.

As the Mr. Cutie problem escalates, your partner will become more and more torn. What you don’t want is to be seen as the “shrew” who continually harps about his kid. Even tho’ he is beginning to come to terms with the situation, it hasn’t totally sunk in yet. When it does hit him with full force, things are going to get “rocky”. This will become a very delicate situation and possibly volatile meaning the potential to cause avoidable problems in your relationship if you get the right guidance.

My thoughts with the therapist are this: The therapist can “guide” your partner through this and keep him focused in a way that you (because you are the love interest in his life) cannot. Here, the therapist will be able to “interpret” your emotions and challenges in all this to him when he begins to “doubt”. For you, the therapist can “guide” you through what your partner is going through and give you insight on what will be helpful and what will not be in relation to what is going on with your partner at the different stages. And lastly, the therapist can probably guide you both as to how to handle Mr. Cutie as to what type of discipline will work or not work as this kid ages and with consideration of his psychopathic tendencies.

I am not so sure about confronting Mr. Cutie directly with what you know about him. It’s sort of like why give him the edge? You may be giving him ammunition to focus on other ways of “disturbing the peace”. Right now, he’s still poking around to find your hot buttons and how to create chaos in the home. This is the picture I am getting from what you describe. Again, I am not the professional, this is why I urge you to get yourself back to that professional and get her/his opinion. She/He cannot help Mr. Cutie, but she/he can help you and your partner and possibly offer some guidance in how to handle Mr. Cutie. Just don’t expect her to admit that she/he thinks Mr. Cutie is a P, cuz she/he cannot ethically do that and doing so could cost this person their job. Maybe this person can communicate with you via e-mail once a week on the discipline issues. You may even need another therapist for the both of you (this is more for your partner than it will be for you as I defined above, but you will benefit as well). I don’t think you need therapy because you are not handling things well or that you are losing it in any sense. I believe you will need therapy because this is going to be a major life crisis type of thing and someone who is objective and not emotionally involved will be able to help you both steer the ship according to your (yours and your partner’s) specific needs.

I used to contemplate confronting my P, but decided against it. In being honest with myself, I think it was more like an ego thing. Like I wanted him to know that I knew who and what he is. I eventually came to the conclusion it really wouldn’t accomplish anything. Because the P doesn’t care if you know or not. Won’t change or stop them. All you do is let them know you are most likely not going to be manipulated or as easily manipulated and that is when they could make more trouble for you, considering their deviousness. Mr. Cutie is somewhat limited in this regard because of his age/maturity, but an adult P could pose other problems. I know that there exists the possibility of “running into” my P and I’ve concluded that ignoring him is probably the best course. Reflecting on this, I virtually did confront him and did “rip off his mask” at our final confrontation, I just didn’t realize it at the time. I actually did not realize I was dealing with a P, I just thought there was something MAJOR-LY” wrong with him. And I didn’t waste one minute in getting away from him, like I couldn’t move fast enough for myself. I was not sticking around to find out what it was, nor was I inclined to get him to seek help. I had this sense of pure evil and just ran as fast and as far as I could go. Fortunately, I have not had the problems that some of the others here have experienced with the P ringing me or visiting me. He only made one weak attempt via e-mail and I successfully nipped that in the bud. I don’t expect he’ll be seeking me out.

I had forgotten the bedwetting thing and his boarding school. Does the school have a problem with this? Just wondering how they handle it.

Keep you head and wits about you. Let me know how it’s going.

Best regards,
MCN

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#4227 - 06/03/05 12:49 PM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi Jan,

I forgot you told me that your partner has a younger brother. However, the mother sounds like a real piece of work, and from the detail you just gave she sounds pretty selfish herself.

At least your partner is honest about being a parent. It’s so much easier to deal with honesty than when someone isn’t completely honest about matters. Even if it is just being honest with yourself. That’s always the hardest to do sometimes.

IMO, dealing with “each incident” as it comes along is a wise decision on your part. To a certain extent, I think you (and your partner) have to deal with him just like any other family deals with their children. Most parents learn early on to present a united front when problems arise. Plus, any punishments to be meted out should be agreed upon beforehand. I mean this in a general sense. (One time my kid’s dad decided the punishment should be no outdoor play, in the middle of summer no less, for one week. I nearly hit the roof. I yanked him away and privately told him he just punished me as well!!!)

Of course, some punishments need to be handled right away and the other advised as soon as possible. Since you two seem to be living as a family unit, I believe the child has to accept it. He isn’t being abused and the “rules of the house” you’ve given here sound reasonable to me, especially given the child you are dealing with. Your partner sounds level headed and is accepting of your guidance with regard to child-rearing. However, all that stated, not too much is going to work on a P. This is why I think the therapist could be helpful, especially one familiar with working with “problem” children. I think the therapist could advise you of techniques that would help to a degree. It was quite enough for me raising “normal” kids; I can’t imagine having to deal with a “problem” one.

I apologize, but I am not familiar with how the system works in the UK. Not familiar with much in the US either to be honest. I think the original therapist will probably understand your situation and be able to point you in the right direction. You and your partner sound very stable and supportive of each other. I just think you will require a little more support in the future. Your friends and some family(?) may circle round you when/if you reach that point and be supportive, but most will not be familiar with psychopaths and/or the type of behavior you are dealing with, plus all the emotion. That’s the only reason I suggest therapy for the two of you. Or perhaps there is a group of parents of “suspected P” children who meet and discuss their problems? I know we have similar types of “group therapy” things here in the states.

Even tho’ you are letting the little P know that he can’t put one over on you, don’t forget who you’re dealing with. He’ll never give up trying as long as he lives. It’s his nature. My dark and evil side would wanna mess with his head. I’d wanna watch telly with him and never show any emotion. Or one day really like some type of music and the next not like it at all. LOL. It sounds like you pretty much hold your own by not showing him when he has hit a nerve and just smiling at him. I assume you don’t let him slide when he lies, etc. Like when my kids (at 4 and 5) claimed they brushed their teeth and I knew they hadn’t, I would march them in the bathroom and pull out their toothbrush and show them if they had brushed their teeth the brush would be wet and then show them that their toothbrush was dry. That may not work with Mr. Cutie, but you understand what I’m saying.

Yes, it will be interesting to know what got granny hacked off with him. Maybe he did it deliberately cuz he got “bored” with her. In short, she ran out of gifts for him possibly?

I hope you are keeping good journals on all this stuff so you can write a book and get something out of all this!!!

Best regards,
MCN

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#4229 - 06/07/05 11:28 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi Jan,

Are you enjoying your reprieve? Hope so. My last post went off into internet space somewhere.

Psychopathic Staring: This is something quite a few of us have observed. It is different from any other “stare” you’ve ever witnessed and if/when you do, it will be unmistakable. In short, you will know it when you see it. It is not merely the “blank” stare you get when someone cannot answer a question. (I find this typical behavior with the average teenager. They are truly at a loss for whatever reason to answer or reply). It is not a menacing stare. It is not a “wistful” stare, it is not just simply looking past or through you type of stare. It is very difficult to describe, but I will attempt it. (However, I am certain my description will not be “right on” for every P.) The face does not lose expression always, however the eyes seem to glaze and the eyes do seem to be looking past you or through you, but you are left with a “sense” that they have “inwardly” zoned into another space or time. This behavior does not seem to “fit” the circumstances. Example: If you were conversing with a “normal” person and you were discussing some fantasy goal or dream and giving vivid descriptions, you may find your listener “wistfully” staring as they internalized your description. That would be acceptable human behavior or maybe even “typical”. Or, maybe you were boring your listener and they just sort of "zone" out. However, this is not the type of circumstance that will trigger a psychopathic stare. Generally speaking, you are most likely going to be in a serious and very intense conversation with the psychopath and chances are the psychopath involved in this conversation is being accused of some “unacceptable” behavior. In short, the psychopathic stare does not match the typical response pattern of “normal” human behavior given the circumstances. Personally, I have only witnessed this four times by the same person. Each time was a bit different circumstance/trigger and the stare varied in “intensity” if you will. Only once did I witness a slackening of the facial muscles, and if pushed to give a reason for it, I would guess that it may have been the element of surprise for the P or it may have been a serious threat (as perceived by the P) to him. This is the best observation/insight I can offer.

Jan, with all you have shared, it is my observation that R’s staring is a bit different. Yes, he does take on that blank stare when he does not wish to continue whatever conversation. As I mentioned, I think this is common adolescent behavior, with one difference. Due to his lack of emotional maturity, he is not able to carry it off with any “finesse” the average adolescent is capable of. I’m thinking of the picking up a magazine at the neighbor’s home; too obvious, even for the average teenager.

I think his staring AT you is for a couple of reasons. First, he has never been challenged in the manner in which you challenge him. A. You haven’t been around long enough in his life so that he has gotten a handle on your weaknesses, and B. your “acceptance” of him did not come as automatic as his gran and his father. These two people he has already spent more time with and has had the opportunity to observe them and learn their weaknesses and idiosyncrasies. Neither is a challenge to him. You are viewed as a challenge because you “prevent” a good deal of his manipulation of his father, if no one else. Thus, you are now the greatest challenge to him.

Second, his staring or watching of you, is his way of learning about you, and more than you may suspect. Example: I may notice or “learn” that when you are agitated you tend to speak more rapidly. But, I may not pick up on that fact that you seem to pull on your ear a little more often. The psychopath will. Why? Because he does not observe us in the same manner in which we observe others. His observations are more astute in this sense because he has no other way to interpret them. He is not capable of empathy. Without this capacity, he is clueless to how you “feel” unless he has some other physical marker or clue which he ascertains from your body language. This is why I urge being devoid of emotion. You do not provide clues for him. At that point he is forced to focus on the verbal clues, which pose a problem for him as well because psychopaths do not recognize the “emotional” implications of words. Thus, you keep him disadvantaged and make it very difficult for him to manipulate you or run his game.

This is my opinion of why he is so interested in watching you so intently. He needs to learn about you in order to remove you as the obstacle he perceives you to be and/or to be able to manipulate you.

Were you ever able to find out what got his gran so hacked off?

Best regards,
MCN


Edited by MoreCautiousNow (06/07/05 01:47 PM)

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#4230 - 06/08/05 06:33 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

Great that we have another thread that is so precise. I saw your post before it disappeared but only very briefly and didn’t read it properly. I hope it reappears when Di gets time. Hasn’t she been busy with all that info she has posted???? So interesting.

No- I didn’t find out what ticked gran off, all she said to N was that his son would turn out to be a delinquent which I took to mean he had committed some sort of offence and the other thing was that he doesn’t know what to do with himself.

He never knows what to do with himself, he has a low boredom threshold and if there is nothing on TV he stands over N, quite literally-he stands a few inches away from him. It is very strange to watch as he doesn’t speak but just looks at him.
He has no interests or hobbies and wants to be entertained all the time. I think that this ties in with his lack of problem solving skills. He can’t fix his own boredom.

One of the first things I ever noticed about him was his stupid questions that with a few seconds thought he could have worked out for himself. If he is asked to do any task he can’t work out how it should be done and makes a complete mess of it although I think that also ties in with his laziness so he is not asked again. ( Laziness is another issue- I can honestly say I have never met ANYONE so lazy, It’s staggering.)
For example problem solving-he hasn’t worked out you need a sharp knife to cut cheese and always uses a dinner knife and hacks chunks off it or if its hot he needs to take his coat off and if it’s cold to put one on. So many little things that my 3 year old niece could work out for herself.

The staring thing- I have seen the one you mean and I can’t quite describe it but it is obvious though not harsh, the others stares seem to take different forms and yes you are right about the blank teenage stare that says “I don’t want to hear that”. R often cocks his head to one side as though listening to something but glazes over then contorts his face in different directions looks like the cogs are turnings then he snaps out of it, he does this as though he is in a different place from the rest of us.
I once asked what he was thinking and the reply was “nothing” which I totally expected. The staring at me is very different and I agree he is trying to learn about me. I think that is because he hasn’t a clue what is going on in my head and he is looking for the visual signs. Even when he has been as bad as he can be I say my bit then revert back to my cheery self with everyone else-that floors him every time!

I sometimes deliberately show the wrong sort of emotion to a situation-maybe a TV program-and you can see he is totally perplexed. He just can’t read me and he hates it because he can’t find my buttons but the downside of that is he tries every button he can think of. It could be that those are the bedwetting nights-his only form of attack.
He is definitely trying to get rid of me for the reasons you mentioned-he can’t control me and the frustration this causes in him is blatantly obvious and I have to be eliminated.

This may seem a strange thing to say but here is something about his eyes, with R it is a coldness that I’ve never seen in anyone else. Even his school photos have a glazed look, the type of stare you described. When I look at my son’s photos his eyes sparkle as though they are smiling. It’s a direct look that you can engage with. R’s eyes sometimes look at me with such hate, they never smile but thinking about it, his mouth doesn’t smile either.
The only time he ever makes eye contact is when he is lying.

I think N is coming to the conclusion our problem will have to be faced head on but he doesn’t know how so I need to give him time to think things through. I was about to ask him if he would send R to is natural mother for the summer holiday but he got a bizarre phone call from her new husband saying “Is that N? Are you still looking?” he repeated it then the phone went dead. He thought his ex might have disappeared which is very possible. Just my luck when N was in the frame of mind to agree to it.

As an aside – I am going through a legal battle with my ex-it’s being going on 3 years now and coming to a conclusion and when it’s over I want to move on and I’m not taking any baggage with me. I think R would be better with his mother, he has a half brother he could spend time with and although he is younger seems to be brighter than R and has hobbies and sports. At least R would be doing something other than watch TV, he even watches the type of soap ladies of a certain age like to watch. He had the choice of a pop music show and a soap but chooses the soap every time. I don’t know whether you have heard of “Coronation Street”, it’s about people living in a street in the north of England so about relationships etc. so I haven’t a clue why he is interested in it unless it’s the only way he can observe people. Maybe you have some thoughts on that.

Best regards
Jan

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#4231 - 06/08/05 07:33 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hey Jan,

I think my other post is lost forever. I retyped it and it is the one about psychopathic staring.

Just as we do not one day wake up and are full-grown adults, psychopaths do not suddenly wake up and are psychopaths. We are operating here from the premise that R is a psychopath. So, you are watching a psychopath grow essentially. This is why I said keep a journal. One day you may be able to turn it into a “best seller”. Right now you have the front row seat.

Remember I told you that family sit-coms are perfect learning tools for psychopaths? This is why R would chose to watch a soap opera. It gives him insight as to how we “others” operate. He’s probably comparing your behavior and some character’s behavior to get some kind of read on you. Not simply tho. He may have overhead you say something or do something (smile, laugh, frown) at something similar in the soap. He’s getting insight. Don’t underestimate him.

I don’t know if this will work, or if you want to put yourselves thru it as I’m sure it will be quite tedious for you and I don’t know that a professional child psychologist would find my suggestion appropriate for these types of children, but I would give him certain chores to do (if you haven’t already). Chores that are not his own personal gain (brushing his teeth), but a chore like taking the garbage out. Establish a reward system. I am sure he will expect the reward without the effort or with even poor effort. And I would make him do his own laundry when he pees in his bed. How is his bedwetting handled at the boarding school?? Psychopaths greatly dislike being shamed. Or have you ever tried totally ignoring him when he reverts to talking like a child? Don’t reward him with a response. When he’s bored, give him something to do and it does not necessarily have to be a “fun” thing to do. Give him a chore.

I don’t think you will be able to foist off R on his mother for very long. Eventually, in the not so distant future, I think your problem with R is going to be solved by the “authorities”. He doesn’t sound as tho’ he is all that clever “psychopath” wise. And from what went on at gran’s (the implied what probably went on), this is where all fingers seem to be pointed for this kid. In short, I think it’s going to be taken out of your hands whether you want it or not.

You seem to be doing a great job at keeping R confused. I had to laugh tho’. I think you and I are on the “same page”. I would do precisely what you are doing by displaying the opposite emotion of what a TV show calls for. I thought it was just me, my evil dark side popping up. However, in this situation it does have its benefits.

I saw a letter posted somewhere here about how some parents were handling their psychopathic child. You should read it if you haven’t already. They had a long list of how they handled situations with their child.

Do keep in mind, R cannot and does not have capacity to think things through. It is not necessarily laziness. For him, a knife is a knife is a knife. The end. I know it’s exasperating but this is what you are dealing with.

Many have described a psychopath’s eyes as seeming “dull and flat” and full of hate.

I hope your legal issues are over quickly for your sake. They are never fun.

Best regards,
MCN

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#4232 - 06/08/05 09:30 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
In reply to:

Psychopaths greatly dislike being shamed.


Thats an interesting comment. Ps have always struck me as being pretty shameless; not really worried if they get caught out or not, everything just part of the game.

If you have time could you expand on that one a bit, MCN?

JAM

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#4237 - 06/08/05 11:52 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: JustAMan]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Thank you JAM and Di,

I will have to play with it. Not all that adept with this. Just know how to type and am long winded.

Thank you JAM for expounding. Muchly appreciated.

Regards,
MCN

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#4238 - 06/09/05 06:17 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

How did you know I was into mud wrestling??? Well…maybe I’ll try it one day.

I have been keeping notes for quite a while now, I originally started because I wanted to paint a clear picture of what was going on in our lives on a daily basis for the child psychologist. I wanted it be totally objective so avoided giving an opinion on anything or using adjectives to describe anything.
I have also kept separate notes on situations I felt intuitive about or things he was doing or behaviours I suspected. In these notes I also stated how I was feeling about these things as well as noting other peoples observations and comments.
I can’t do it much at the moment as the kid is now at boarding school and spends half his holidays with his gran.

I do think I’m watching the development of a person who will one day be fully fledged so hope my records will be useful in the future. I wish I had the ability to write a book on the subject but I think the nearest my capabilities will allow is a humorous book for parents on how to survive the RAD/Fledgling.

I see what you mean about the soaps, it could be where he learns his phrases and actions because he doesn’t do anything that is not copied from someone else. (We even had the left handed knife and fork eating because the neighbours son does it –in the UK the fork is always in the left hand and the knife in the right with no putting one down or crossing over hands)
I just wish he would copy some positive behaviour but he only does the bad things, it seems every single thing he does he has to do it wrong or badly. You are probably thinking there must be something that this kid does that is OK but I honestly can’t think of anything, I hate being so negative.

We did have a few visits with the child psychologist and everything she suggested we had already tried apart from giving him chores. The only thing we make him do is wash his bedding and put it out to dry. I got to the stage where clearing up after he has done a chore and the performance he gives while doing it wasn’t worth it. He behaves like a real diva when doing something and he is centre stage so I can’t watch so he doesn’t get attention. No attention means the job can last for hours and still doesn’t get done or it’s done to the standard of a 2 year old.

He seems to like his “flags” on the washing line which brings me to the point of shaming him. He can’t be shamed because he doesn’t care but he does hate being humiliated and I hate to say it but I tried humiliating him about it in an attempt to stop him doing it at school but guess what? He does it there and doesn’t care. He shares a room with 3 other older boys who he has probably gained the sympathy vote from.

The matron phoned up the first time it happened because she thought he might have a few problems LITTLE DID SHE KNOW! He has certainly got her sympathy vote-she is a gran figure and he’s got her sussed.

We deliberately didn’t tell the school about his condition because we wanted to see how he would behave in a new environment and if we had told them he would not have been able to act naturally. This was partly to judge whether his behaviours were reserved entirely for us. It didn’t take long for him to carry on as before.

We did try the reward system to elicit good behaviour but because he has no desire to please anyone it was hard to find something to reward. I started a star chart and he would get one every morning he didn’t wet the bed, 7 days and he got taken to McDonalds, 14 days and we went somewhere smarter. We had one trip to McDonalds!
Rewarding is a tricky one because it’s another way for him to manipulate situations and he used it to it’s full extent and the psychologist thought it might make him worse as he would be calling the shots.

I do have a wicked streak –I’m one of the quiet ones too! I love to show all the wrong emotions to confuse, I know when he is when he puts his head on one shoulder, closes one eye and curls one half of his mouth up as if saying “uh?”.

I posted a while ago some info I got from another forum-maybe that is what you saw-it’s called Coping with an Adolescent Psychopath. Great piece of advice which I’ll post again if it’s not the same one.

Oh! The lazy thing-he is definitely lazy and takes the path of least resistance with every single thing. You wouldn’t believe the extent of his laziness, he takes it to extremes.

I will know tomorrow how my legal thing is going to go so may have something positive happening for me at last.

All the best
Jan

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#4239 - 06/09/05 12:19 PM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hey there, Jan,

LOL, hahahahhaha. Hey, whadda say we start a team. Bill ourselves as Guerilla Psycho Gurls?? I hear it’s a pretty lucrative business. Plus, we wouldn’t have to worry about maintaining some glamorous image. Sheesh, we could just roll outta bed and go to work! We can laugh ourselves all the way to the bank. You up for this Syl? Seriously, if I was gonna start a team of anything, I’d want yous on my side!

I think keeping the journals was a very smart thing to do. (you must be a very organized person) And, you can write a book, even a humorous one. You write here. You’re getting practice for later. Besides, you may capture something very valuable writing down this behavior. In some sense you are in an enviable position with regard to that end of it. However, dealing with it is NOT enviable. My heart goes out to you there.

Yeah, I figured from what you said that it would be more tedious for you to supervise the chores. I did not consider the manipulation part of the reward system. I am not a professional and this is why I hesitate in making suggestions of this sort. From what I’ve read, punishments don’t work. Yes, you cannot “shame” him, but humiliating him may be a route to take. On that, I would talk to the child psychologist. I suppose this method could trigger violence eventually. P’s seem to figure out ways around a lot of things because there is so little they aren’t willing to do or risk.

You have to stop beating yourself up over being negative about the situation. Forget that “half full” crap. The PROGNOSIS is negative. The real deal is that the situation IS NOT going to get better; it’s only going to get worse. I think you’re doing the best anyone could possibly do! Like I said, the only thing left to do is the “damage control.” And you already know where the “leaks” will be coming from. How long do you think it will take to get the phone call from the school that you must come and get him as they can no longer deal with him?? Then what’s the plan? Since he seems to have all these people at the school buffaloed, have you ever been able to find out precisely what he tells them or what kind of behavior he exhibits for them to be so duped?

If you were the one (and I think you were come to think of it) who posted the Coping with an Adolescent P, and it had a list of how the parents handled their situation then, yes, it’s the one I was thinking of. That was so very sad. You could hear and feel their grief in the situation. My heart ached for them. What brave souls they are!

Ahhh, so you are one of those quiet ones who is not just sitting there thinking your own thoughts on the matter, you’re busy thinking up devious plots!! I knew I liked you!! I think that’s the only way I’d be able to keep my sanity with this kid is to resort to messin’ with him. Like how are you gonna “damage” him? I don’t think you can. In actuality, it’s more like tripping him up and staying ahead of him and “stunting his growth” in the manipulation arena. It’s sorta like giving him a dose of his own in reverse.

I’ll have to keep the knife and fork deal in mind if I ever make it there to visit. Won’t be so difficult for me because I’m left handed anyway. In the states, it’s pretty relaxed. You’d have to be at some “stuffy” type dinner party to be “talked” about if you did not follow proper protocol.

You know, the P I was seeing had a 17 year old son who I thought was a little different, but what I knew about P’s then you wouldn’t be able to fill a thimble with. However, he never even put sheets on his bed and his father never made him. And this kid was pretty lazy too. His father gave me this story (now I think it was probably a lie) about how his mother lived up in the mountains and was home schooling him and he never had any contact with other people. He told me he didn’t think that was a good thing for the kid, so he took custody of his son. He gave this reason for the kid’s lack of facial expression, etc. From what you are telling me and from what I now have learned, I’m beginning to wonder if both the father and son are P’s. The father for sure, but now I wonder about the son. I didn’t have that much contact with the son tho’.

So, shall we ring up Syl and see if she has any mud on hand??

My best to you as well,
MCN

PS. Keeping my fingers crossed for you that the legal thing turns out the way you hope for.


Edited by MoreCautiousNow (06/09/05 03:53 PM)

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#4240 - 06/10/05 04:59 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN’s Team

This is so good being part of this forum, I’ve smiled and laughed over the last few days which has distracted me from my problems, P and personal. Teamwork works!

I’m fortunate that my work involves being on the internet most of the day and I work from “home” so I can dip in and out at anytime. Things are quite settled here at the moment because Mr Cutie is away at school. The whole atmosphere changes when he is around, literally! It’s as though there is an evil cloud hanging over us. Someone else suggested Ps give off radar and there is definitely something like that going on. Could be vibes, fumes or whatever. I know in our case there is a bad smell about the kid in every sense of the word but it’s also more than that. Can’t explain it.

Between us we have so much experience and I’m going to look at some of the earlier posters to gain more insight. I feel the more I know the easier it will be to distance my emotions from the issues and deal with them more objectively.
The info I posted on dealing with adolescent Ps is something I have been doing intuitively. I showed N but he can’t seem to follow the routine like I do but that may change.

I started keeping journals to put into words what was happening and it was a way of dissipating some of the anger I felt before I had anyone to share it with. This kid has changed me so much and I resent it. I am normally a quiet, thoughtful person that tries to see the best in everyone but now feel as though my thoughts are concentrated on spotting evil before it happens. I have never felt hate before and I don’t want to feel like this any longer. I know no-one can tell me when I won’t feel like that, it’s within myself to change it. It’s not fair to N that I feel such hate for his child and keep waiting for the day when he says “enough is enough”. Every time I tell him I would understand if he wants me to go and we live separately until the kid leaves home, he won’t hear of it and says he understands exactly how I feel.
That makes me feel even more mean.

I do have an evil streak now and do think up devious methods to be one step ahead of the kid, even to the extent of phrasing my questions to get a proper reply. I can’t stay honest reply but it leaves little room for bull****.

I did think of one positive thing though….when we have a long car journey he just sits quietly for hours. Apart from a few silly questions it is peaceful-hey-maybe I have found the answer-live in the car!!! (See, the sense of humour is still lurking just when I thought I had lost it)

If the school kicks him out I don’t know what I would do-I suppose I would have to leave and get somewhere of my own. I can’t expect N to dump him. I was hoping he would renew contact with his bio mother so he could start going back there for visits.

Don’t worry about how you use your knife and fork if you come here to visit, it’s just that R isn’t left handed and if you sat “downwind” of him you might get covered in food that he couldn’t control. Kids here are taught to eat formally so they know how it should be done if they are expected to attend any formal function but of course we all take short cuts, even fingers at times. He just uses the wrong methods on purpose so I refused to take him to restaurants in future. It got so he couldn’t cut his food. That seems to be part of the regression. Even his gran says he has regressed or maybe it’s his lack of problem solving skills. As he gets older there are more problems to solve and he can’t work anything out for himself so is not advancing and staying like a young child. So regression might not be the right word-it could be lack of progress.

I didn’t know your P had a son-the similarities are scary. R’s mothe,r from what I know about her is a raging sort of P and he displays a lot of characteristics she displays. This is what makes me convinced it’s inherited in his case. It’s not learned behaviour either because he hasn’t witnesses most of it, like things that happened before he was born. There may be a bit of Foetal Alcohol Effect here too but I can’t prove it so I can’t bring that into the equation although I know she had a drink problem. She could have lied when she said she had given up drinking during pregnancy. Her second child has the features and mental problems of a child with Foetal Alcohol Syndrome so she did drink during that pregnancy.
.
R wouldn’t and hasn’t put sheets on his bed if he can get away with it. Do you think your P’s son might have been kicked out by his mother like R? I know exactly what you mean about lack of facial expression too!

Well…my legal team say I have a strong case so will press ahead on Monday. You wouldn’t believe what I have been through with that over the past 3 years but it’s obviously not a forum issue but hasn’t helped with my mental state. I perhaps could have dealt with one or the other but not both together.

The outcome of my case will dictate my future so watch this space!

Have a good weekend all of you.

Jan

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#4241 - 06/10/05 10:22 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Howdy, Hi,

I think I have our “wrestling” names. If you come up with better, please share. I’ve got Jabbin’ Jan, Slippery Syl, & Matey M.

We gotta throw in some humor sometimes. We’re all in this together and laughter is the best medicine.

I know you and N face your own problems and to add to it the care and keeping of a psychopath certainly doesn’t help. Thank goodness you and N have a strong bond and a stable relationship.

There’s not a lot out there to guide you with Mr. Cutie, so you are pretty much left to your own devices which you have tackled and continue to do so in a very intelligent manner. N probably has a more difficult time with the “routine” as he does not have the child raising experience that you have, nor does he have much experience with how a “normal” child reacts/behaves, uh and (don’t beat me up for this one) he’s a guy. Little tongue in cheek there.

You don’t actually hate the child, you resent him. And, reality is the child did not “choose” to be this way. But, psychopaths are evil and we have to protect ourselves from that. You are not being mean, you are taking the steps you must in order to protect and preserve. (“Hate is but a dead thing, and who among you would be as a tomb” – I think Kahlil Gibran said this but not sure)

Hmm, … I’m getting this visual of you and N and R all living in the car. Funny, tho’ I keep seeing you leaning over from the front seat and strangling little R in the back seat. LOL. Just kidding.

I have wished that I had the entire two years that I spent with my P on videotape so I could go back and review it with clarity. As far as the P’s son getting kicked out by the mother is probably a very likely scenario. I highly doubt a P would want to take on the responsibility of child-raising willingly. Imagine that, a P raising another P. However, bottom line is that I really don’t know what was true and what was not as far as anything the P told me. I was never around the child for very long periods of time as you are and he was 17 so he was rather mobile and not home very much. I “bought” the P’s story (at the time) of his taking custody of his son. I thought the kid was a little odd, but I factored in what I was told. Emotionally this kid seemed to be on the level of a normal 13 or 14 year old, but he was reasonably intelligent and “subdued”.

Many P’s have drug/alcohol-related problems. Probably due to their impulsiveness. Therefore, your description of Mr. Cutie’s mum and the circumstances sound spot on with everything else.

I am sure you have gleaned from my previous posts to you and others that the “energy drain” effect that P’s tend to have on us I find very fascinating. I keep insisting that there is something to this. I’ve experienced and felt it. What it is, how it works and why isn’t known, I realize, but I am interested in any research that has gone on in that area. It’s a very odd phenomenon. Even you are experiencing it. During the end with my P, my instinct, intuition, subconscious whatever you want to call it, seemed to take over and in the end saved me from a lot of misery. I did “all the right things” without realizing I was dealing with a P.

I brought up the school issue because my point was when the school can no longer handle him, you will probably be close to the time the authorities are going to be forced to step in.

I hope you have a pleasant weekend and that all goes well for you in the legal matter.

With warm regards,
MCN

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#4242 - 06/12/05 12:54 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi MCN

You are right-hate isn’t the right word, I think loathe would be better. I must look up that Gibran quote.

Interesting that you think this kid can’t help himself-
I think he has chosen to cultivate his activities. He knows what he should do and what is expected of him in most circumstances because I’ve seen him do it, that’s when he is being Mr Cutie. His father, gran and myself have spent years guiding him but he chooses to do things his way. Nothing will stop him.

No punishment will deter him and he will do the same things repeatedly. Instant gratification is one of his priorities. This is why I think the stealing will bring him to the attention of the authorities soon.

I think he can help himself and he has the choice whether he wants to part of society on our terms but he chooses not to. That’s what I call a P.

I find it very odd that the school does not give feedback on a regular basis so haven’t a clue what they make of him. I suppose he comes into contact with so many people that one person alone doesn’t have much time with him, therefore don’t get too concerned about his strange behaviour. It doesn’t affect them to nay extent,

He hasn’t made any friends but that is masked by him hanging round with the older boys…the Mr Cutie act…and gets taken under their wing. He is using that situation to get “looked after” and get more privileges.

Got your new swimsuit yet? I was just telling Sylvie I’m off shopping now to get mine-mud coloured or do we have to wear uniform?

All the best
Jan

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#4243 - 06/12/05 07:30 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: ]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi Jan,

OK, we're off to a great start. We're all 5ft. tall and probably don't weigh much over 300 pounds all together. (sorry, I'm one of those dumb yanks who has not learned metric). Think they'll be laughin' us off the stage? Ha, the bigger they are, the harder they fall. Yeah, we can wear swimsuits, but I don't think it's gonna much matter once we're covered in mud. I was thinking more along the lines of tee shirts and cutoffs. By the way, I tried to recruit JAM, but he's been silent on the matter.

Part of the issue with P's is that they cannot control their impulsiveness. They also do not learn from their mistakes. Our "rules" make no sense to him whatsoever, so why should he follow them? You have to get your head wrapped around that. He is only cultivating activities that interest him or somehow he sees some advantage for himself.

He will follow a rule, or seem to IF he sees an advantage to it or will get something out of it. But don't expect him to see any logic in it as you do. The Mr. Cutie act equates psychopathic charm (he's still learning yet) used by the P to manipulate for some preceived gain.

Any "friends" he has at any time will eventually distance themselves from him, unless they are a P as well or have some mental problem. He WILL do something to them to drive them away.

When I confronted the P I was with, (I did not accuse him of being a P, I accused him of lying, cheating, and implied he was behaviing like a total jerk - I had no clue at the time he was a P - stupid me), he very humbly looked at me and simply said, "That's me." At the time, I was truly flabbergasted. I'm thinking to myself, "the audacity! I just tell this idiot he's a total jerk and he tells me, 'that's me'!? Shall I tell him I think he's a total moron too?" Minutes prior to that, I asked him how he felt about the two of us and he totally zoned out into the psychopathic stare and turned and faced the wall for a good 7-10 minutes. Any normal bloke coulda come up with something, even if it was lame. Believe me, when he pulled that, I figured something was really not quite right with this guy and I should get away from him immediately and not be troubling myself about what was "wrong" with him at that moment.

The reality was, at that precise moment he was telling the truth. He truly did not know how he felt and he confessed that he really didn't find his behavior a problem.

It took me six months to wrap my head around that. The average person finds it difficult to believe a psychopath cannot recognize what we take for granted. Their handicap is not physically visible. The best analogy I can give you is asking a P to emote on a mature and sincere level is equivalent to asking an armless man to do a handstand. It's just not gonna happen.

When Mr. Cutie does behave in an acceptable manner, it is an indication (because of his age) that he is "learning" that this is how he can get something he wants. He is learning the art of manipulation, NOT that this is how one should behave. And, you are correct in that instant gratification is his priority and it is why he is motivated to steal, or do things his way, or whatever he choses to do.

Sounds like the only feedback you're gonna get from this school is when they ring you and ask you to come and get him, or refuse to sign him on again.

In a couple of years I think you're gonna have the authorites knocking on your door. From what you describe, he doesn't sound as tho' he's one of the more intelligent and clever P's. Then you're going to face the problem of Dad and gran letting go and not bailing him out or leave him in the streets to fend for himself. That's going to be a real tough one. That's what you need to be preparing for. For now, I guess you just have to be thankful that he's not underfoot all the time and that you get a break from him. Some parents don't get that.

Hope you day is a great one!!

My best to you,
MCN


Edited by MoreCautiousNow (06/12/05 08:01 AM)

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#4245 - 06/12/05 09:26 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: JustAMan]
MoreCautiousNow Offline
member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 110
Hi there JAM,

It's just a bit of humor going on between Fledgling P's and New Member/Observing P's

Some of what you missed:

"From MCN to Sylvie -You, me and Jan could probably be mud wrestlers or something!!! I don’t get the impression that either one of you is a shrinking violet.”

“Hi MCN from Jan

How did you know I was into mud wrestling??? Well…maybe I’ll try it one day.”

“Hey there, Jan, from MCN

LOL, hahahahhaha. Hey, whadda say we start a team. Bill ourselves as Guerilla Psycho Gurls?? I hear it’s a pretty lucrative business. Plus, we wouldn’t have to worry about maintaining some glamorous image. Sheesh, we could just roll outta bed and go to work! We can laugh ourselves all the way to the bank. You up for this Syl? “

“Hey Sylvie, from MCN

You got an "honorable" mention in Observing Fledgling Psychopaths. Better read it if you haven't already. Serious business proposition going on there. LOL."
-------------------------------------------------------
You were invited to join the "Guerilla Psycho Gurls" mud wrestling team. However, we'd have to change our "billing" name if you accept. You might look cute in a little "Speedo" covered in mud. Whadda say, gurls??

Cheers,
MCN

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#4246 - 02/25/06 09:41 PM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: ]
ebeadit1 Offline
member

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 2
I have a daughter that was diagnosed with Oppositional defiance disorder and she has been leeping into psychopath personality without developing full fledge Conduct Disorder. Here is a list I observe: She is a girl and I believe that girls manifest different behaviors than do boys because there are so few of them to be observed:

Is glib and superficial (her emotion feels fake everyone tells me this)
Becomes easily annoyed and then becomes violent (manipulating friends to hurt or go after someone and either physically harm or verbally abuse)
Has utilized a weapon to scare a family member and said it was a joke
Shows no remorse (very cold demeanor when challenged about behavior)
Has two different personalities (excessively nice, and hostile, aggressive
and cold.
Most people who don't know her believe she is very sweet and can't believe
you when you tell them things she has done.(Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde Syndrome)
Manipulates people to get what she wants (makes up stories about people to
get attention away from herself when she is in trouble)
Starts fights with people that she is close to by lying and telling stories
Is highly sexually precocious and sexually inappropriate but will tell you she does not like boys at all and most boyfriends are just friends even with there is sexual encounters.
Is somewhat aggressive sexually with boys, men
stares coldly when challenged.
Makes people believe she agrees with them about rules and then later
does what she wants that goes against them.
She is very shallow and superficial in emotion
States she loves animals but has little to do with them (sometimes holds
her cat but very little.
Tells lies and can't remember them
Has very limited memory capabilities unless she has been hurt Then
remembers to get even and harbors for a long time.
Is always complaning about somatic pain and exagerates for attention
Constantly denies things she has done or said and is convincing to the
point that you actually question yourself.
Believes her lies.
Engages in attention seeking behavior that is often destructive.
Highly impulsive with no regard for consequences.
Irresponsible to the point of almost stealing (keeping books from library,
school, friends CDs, clothing, etc)
Copies bizarre lyrics with high sexual and violent overtones with very little understanding of the meanings (can recite the lyrics but if you ask her what that music means she states no understanding of it).
Treats people more like objects rather that human beings and when threatened will become aggressive
Her since of reality is not most peoples' reality and often scares people.
Has no real connection with anyone and complains of it.
States that she does not care about hurting people.
Does no recognize most societal norms and rules. Will break the smallest rules without regard for it.
Has unrealisitic optimism.
Has very short term relationships (makes friends easily and the loses after a few months)
Seems to be highly rejected from her peers.
Seems to have been sexually assalted more that most girls her age (15)
(Several boys have been accussed of sexually assaulting her with little
consequences directed toward her false accusations.
Any form of punishment does not affect her at all and she states she does
not care.


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#4247 - 03/02/06 05:57 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: ebeadit1]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi ebeadit1, welcome to the forum. I am very sorry to hear about your daughter. The more I read, I guess the diagnosis you received for your daughter sounds like a pre Psychopath diagnosis.

Depending on where you live there is a youth version available now for ages 14 - 17.

How are you coping with all of this? Do you have other children or pets in the house? Unfortunately the symptoms your daughter is displaying don't sound like a rosy future.

Jan has been quite busy but she knows so much about this subject, hopefully she will pop by soon an give you some words of support and advise.

Di

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#4248 - 06/19/06 04:03 PM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: ]
kwindish Offline


Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 30
Hi! After reading this thread, I can only suggest that if counseling is sought, behavioral or cognitive behavioral is the way to go. They are the modes that work best with tough love...in my opinion. They are the "coldest" emotionally.

Perhaps you can find a book or two based on these approaches to get ideas from. Consistency is key.

Also, Ps work best one on one to weave their intricate webs. When you bring in a team, it is discouraging in that they find it more difficult to manipulate two or more at a time. Especially if one of them is wise to him and he knows it. Showing a united front should be a good thing.

As far as the 7 year old girl goes, all I can say is the earlier something is done, the easier it will be. By the time the child reaches 11 to 13, it becomes much harder to modify the behavior. The child must really want to change.


Edited by kwindish (06/19/06 04:16 PM)
_________________________
Moss grows fat on a rolling stone!

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#4249 - 08/15/06 04:07 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: ]
freedom Offline
member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 11
Hi Jan36

I was wondering if the doctor could have his chromosomes analyzed. I would strongly recommended to have it done.


Our youngest son 13 has an unbalanced translocations of chromosomes 5 and 18 and his behavior is very wild, he can be so sweet and he can be so mean and dangerous.

I have been on the group Psychopath in your life a long time ago, i do not write hardly anymore, and i was checking this group because of our son acting up so bad, and when i read your story " but this child is extremely immature both physically and mentally" i would be curious if there is something wrong with his chromosomes.

Freedom

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#4250 - 08/15/06 05:33 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: freedom]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Freedom

That is a really interesting concept and I hadn't even given chromosomes a thought but will certainly do some research now. Thanks for that.

I would be very grateful if you could share your information about the condition then I might be able to recognise any similarities. How did you get to find out and what are the tests that can be done and is there anything that can be done such as gene therapy? There are so many questions I'd like to ask you such as what symptoms did you first notice and are there any trigger factors. Was the condition progressive and do you see any changes?

I will wait with interest and hope you can answer some of my questions.

Regards
Jan

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#4251 - 08/17/06 10:00 PM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: ]
freedom Offline
member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 11
Bonjour, bonsoir
sorry i took so long to answer


He started to walk at 5 with a small walker, and as he got more mobile he likes to slap our flabby part of our body or your back which hurts because there is no fat there and he bites for fun which hurts and pull my hair gently which still hurts and hits his own head very hard, all this happen in public too at the grocery store or anywhere in public and private, he likes to run away from me in the store to be with him in public is like giving a clown show

one lady from a CARE agency was at a store in town and she could not afford to buy what he wanted so he laid on the floor in sight of everyone at Wal-Mart acting like a worm,
the lady ask this man if he could tell Paul just 3 words "Get up son!" and it worked

he pitches things in the house at people and our dogs
and sometime the things are hard and they puncture of bruise unless it is a pillow, and he laughs he think it is funny
when he was little he was watching Lassie movie who was drowning, it made him crying, he cries when he hears classical music and certain religious music
at school he hits his classmates who loves him
i see the child at the grocery store and they are happy to see him and i ask them does he hit you in class or pitch object and they say yes (and they still love him)
right there in the store i tell Paul tell you friend your are sorry to hit her or him and he gives them a light hug

he laughs a lot, he is a super happy boy unless he is hurt bad or he does not get his way


anyway there are so many different type of chromosomes abnormality that it would not hurt to get the test, if there is something wrong you might get more help from agency that deal with mentally challenge people if not then at least you would know

it would not hurt to ask for the test
you could get more footing in the door of people that deal with mentally challenge people

a lady i know who has 2 boys 11 and 13 (single mom)
the boy were so bad they were telling her they hate her and caught their place on fire finally she place them in different group home (they were arguing so much) and they like it one boy is learning how to play the harmonica, they have more activity for them and they needed that, they were bored, they were smart in their own way they wanted to know how everything works and the mom could not answer all their question or unfix and fix things back up

i pray that you will meet people that will help you all

maybe join a group of people that have to deal with people who acts out out of the ordinary
like this group here who are taking care of people with head injury and act weird and you have to deal with
my brother-in-law was hit by a car as he was getting out of the school bus and he was never right after that he was very smart in the 10th grade and they had to put him away then it was a long time ago, he lives with us now (he is 64)and this is another journey to go through with

May God help us all life is getting more psychotic

freedom

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#7034 - 06/09/08 05:54 AM Re: Observing Psychopaths [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
relly59 Offline
member

Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 17
I have experienced this 'energy drain' - I personally refer to these as 'energy vampires' as they 'suck the life out of you' - I didn't realise they were Psychopath's until now and I think that is the connection - that it may be a good warning signal when around these Psychopath's for us all to take notice of 'how we feel' when unsure of ourselves and what we are experiencing at the time. Maybe paying attention to our own body's responses like this will forewarn us??
Relly59

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#7039 - 06/09/08 01:10 PM Re: Observing Psycho [Re: MoreCautiousNow]
Damaskrose Offline
member

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 54
hi just to say that I recognise many of the signs mentioned in the first post re rad/fledgling. Oh if only I had realised when my adopted daughter was younger. She is now full grown and a adult.

The lack of enjoyment of music and dancing.
No interest in pets or animals like the other children
Only laughed when someone got hurt or embarressed
Liked one to one relationships and could not share easily
Does not express emotions or feelings for anyone
The hyper vigilance to others business
No memories from past
Never praises anyone
....and also some i noticed like...
No tears if she cried just dry silent heaving
hiding important things around the house so the owner would panic and watching them search
Going into trances/Strange expressions
Materalistic

She would find out what you did not like and make sure you had an encounter....
For instance one of her brothers hated coffee creams and she even at young age of six went to the trouble of getting one out of the box and taking it to him. She had this way of acting so sweetly and gaining your confidence. I remember seeing her give it to him and thinking oh how sweet, and hearing him ask what flavour it was and she saying innocently it is strawberry I think. He reacted violently on finding it was coffee and pushed her so she fell to the floor. I don't remember thinking too much of it at the time and told my son off for pushing her believing I guess it was a honest mistake on her part. The trouble is looking back there were too many 'honest' mistakes. The problem was who would think a small child is capable of cold and calculating manipulation. And what started as small things like teasing her brothers with sweets grew into much more dangerous stuff.


I also agree with the stirring of emotions in people so the child can feed. Our daughter loved hiding things and watching us get distraught trying to find them. This could range from a brothers important homework book to once even my wheeled suitcase at an station. I remember turning my back and her and the suitcase were gone. Then after a search she turned up but no case. She was 17 at the time so no baby. She knew that inside that case were our passports and laptop. For a minute or so she denied having the suitcase but eventually gave the sly smile which we knew was as close to admitting it she ever came. Luckily a station employee had found the case and we were able to go on with the journey but our lives have been full of similar dramas that no other child ever came close to doing. All the negative energy she whirled up in us. I mean why try and ruin your own families holiday. But then I remember the look in her face when she saw us racing around trying to fix what ever she had interfered with and I know she got a thrill out of it. Not the normal naughty child thing but a real evil buzz.
Once too she scratched a teachers car from front to back with her keys because the teacher had taken her large hoop earings away. That took some time to prove and she was caught out only by cctv.
I remember sitting in the principles office and they confronted her and she said after realising the game was up ......'well at least she is insured isn't she' {referring to the damage}!!!
The school were always trying to tell us that something was not right but for the most part I believed my daughter that they had got it wrong. I wish I had listened now. You cannot believe how good these children are though at soothing your worries. The really clever ones could make you believe white is black! Teenage years are hell they seem to get a hormonal boost above and beyond the norm!

Sometimes I would catch a look on her face as if she was bored with us probably we were too easy to fool. And we were perhaps if We had realized and got her help she would have had more respect for us.


Edited by Damaskrose (06/09/08 01:27 PM)

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#9569 - 03/30/10 12:32 PM Re: Observing Psycho [Re: Damaskrose]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States

Sahmera
03/23/10 10:23 PM


Guess What my daughter is back. And she is on 800mgs of Seroguel and is trying to fight through the medication. She is not drooling actually quite active with the get in my face I dare you attitude. She has only been home for three days and can't an ounce of not getting what she wants. She tore up the new shower/bedroom at the hospital, hit numerous patients, threatened bodily harm to others, tore up room mates belongings all in one month. I am so happy to have her home. She is now close to 140 pounds or more at 5'2". Doesn't seem like a big deal but everything is anymore with this child.

She was so angry when she got home because she is sharing a room now at least for a little while.

Just a little update on my dear sweet child. The doctors validated once again that she doesn't to get better, she is manipulating, lying, thief, narcissistic, and the kitchen sink too. It's unfortunate that she has given up at such an early age.

Here is another irony. I heard hear mother was thrown into jail again at the same time my little one has been going nutso. The last time they saw each other was several years ago, no contact whatsoever. I had this happen with another child I had. She was going through trauma drama just like her brother at the same time. Neither one knew the other was nutting out.






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#10051 - 10/04/10 06:07 PM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: Anonymous]
clearblue Offline
member

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 156
I have observed the psychopath fledgling to act out an impulse crime and victimize himself by the same crime method. Break a window of a stranger. Break his own window and claim being a victim with the victim and hide his own window crimes,within the act. Very cunning behavior.

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#10096 - 10/08/10 06:46 PM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: clearblue]
clearblue Offline
member

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 156
A teen,approaching adulthood who meets most of the psychopaths criteria and Dr.Hare's list took money from my teen. I chased him down and demanded he return it. He refused.
He said I was flipping out over nothing and I should be thankful he was teaching my kid a lesson of not being spoiled and I should be thanking him.
He said I was bad news,stupid because I was giving money that they could spend on drugs or booze,
I was a bad parent to let them have free money and other kids do not get hand outs from their parents.
I said I would figure that out myself and to return the money. He refused claiming to already have spent it. I knew it was a lie. I could not make him give it back.
I was so mad. He threaten to turn me in for following him.
He went on his way winning the right to steal money,and have a safety net when he was caught.
I said at least we are not thieves. He called me a dirty name and kept going.

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#10099 - 10/09/10 04:17 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: Anonymous]
clearblue Offline
member

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 156
Does anyone know what the percent of fledgling psychopaths is before the chronic delinquency or compulsory attendance is factored in?

Is there data on Psychopath youth before 1950s?
If so what were the methods so measuring the Psychopath population?
Boys homes? or delinquency?




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#10101 - 10/09/10 09:59 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: clearblue]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
There is now a Youth version. Normally they seem to originally get a diagnosis of conduct disorder, i.e. your kid is a psycho when younger and in trouble.

The kids in custody would be easy to study, the ones living next door would be a much tougher thing. Probably couldn't even try to discuss this with the parents. Who would admit their kid could be the future Ted Bundy or a white collar criminal?

The conscience forms between 3 -5 years old.

Shockingly the general Population hasn't been figured out how many there really are. Personally I think the numbers are a bit low. Hare did the stats and that was the last one, no update since. I would think that kind of information being updated would be of interest to a researcher. Hare did his figures based on the prison population. I about fell off my chair when I confirmed this information awhile ago.

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#10102 - 10/09/10 12:24 PM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: Dianne E.]
clearblue Offline
member

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 156
I believe the numbers are higher but it would be hard to determine them.
They use truancy and daytime crime comparisons to arrive at a figure. Then use the percentage of that figure. It would not be very accurate though because a lot of fledglings may not be truant. Especially if they have a fan club. Some I believe are showing high Psychopath traits are known as really good students. The news is loaded with stories of "he was such a good kid" reports following some shocking crime. You do not hear many "he was in trouble all the time" stories.

There is a website where you can see the homes in the US, that convicted Psychopath's lived in.
It says some things about their horrid crimes.

Gacy had his mother living with him, in his house during his murdering years,
his wife and kids moved out before he filled his house with victims bodies.

I remember a guy finally got caught taking his wife out on the lake and after she drowned he collected insurance and remarried. Then did this to the next two wifes before he got caught.
A witness actually noticed him moving his raft away from the overboard wife.

I have seen that look you describe. It is vacant. My parent had this look,at times. I hated to make eye contact with him. I seen the other side.
I spent my life raised by the Psychopath. My other parent used me as the bartering aid. She thought I was a security for her. She thought that he could not lie,cheat or do bad things with his own child in tow. She was wrong.
He was more dangerous, who would think a parent with a small kid poses any threat.
That false security is a victims connection to a perpetrator.
He had an alibi.
I am sure other Psychopath parents are out there using their kids, in full view.
One vacant look from a Psychopath will keep a kid quite too. Makes you feel a deep terror, frozen in fear.
Like a stranger is inside the Psychopath and just used his eyes to look at you.

The look a Psychopath gives you pushes your thoughts,truths beyond the sub conscious.
Your truth went in to a black hole. You wish you could escape with it.
Its hard to pull yourself together. It is fear.
You just faced death personified.
You wonder when he will return for your life.
His job symbolism is the reaper.
When he gets off work he goes home.




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#12758 - 03/05/12 05:29 PM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: Anonymous]
Mug42Long Offline
member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 16
Dear Jan

My Psychopath mum madand (me, a diluted Psychopath blush):

I know I have inherited Psychopath traits and fight against the urge and have just realised all of this Psychopath stuff. I just thought my mother was a controller and behaved badly. At XMas the penny dropped and I've not seen her since. This is all new to me. I have answered how we act/feel. It may help you understand more, talking to a Psychopath who knows and wants to escape the Psychopath thing, LOL!

Likes one to one relationships otherwise triangulates or acts out - madyes, monopolises me, tries to exclude my friends, what I want to do ( blushI used to want exclusive relationships and may have pointed out faults in friends of the other person)
Doesn’t sing, dance or listen to music - she does, and plays it, used to go to clubs to dance (I don't sing and would not clap when more Psychopath, when young. I dance a little with my daughter)
Doesn’t tell or understand jokes - yes (I don't find them funny, but will find weird things funny)
Asks if I’m being sarcastic, joking or I really mean something - yes, gets 'hurt' (I thing people are having a go at me when they say things that I feel are unacceptable)
Doesn’t laugh at humorous TV programmes but will laugh at people hurting themselves - maybe, watches gameshows and gets angry when I get bored (don't find them humourous, don't like hurt, maybe I did when I was younger)
Never relates humorous incidents that have happened unless being malicious - yes (me, sorta)
Sneers rather than laughs - YES!! (me, no, I laugh now, probably sneered when young)
Uses other people’s expressions and even other people’s questions - probably, I have only woken up and not seen her since (me, not now, don't know about when I was young)
Repeats what he has heard other people say as though they were his own thoughts/opinions - yes (me, yes but add my stuff, we all do that?)
Copies other people’s behaviour or way of doing things as though it is his own (me, I don't think so)
Reads only fantasy books never ones about people and relationships - does not read, does not relate to relationships (me, I wouldn't waste time, I like non-fiction, crime, etc, Psychopath!!)
Hypervigilant-needs to know everyone’s business even when they are out of sight - YES! (me, no, don't care)
Wants to know what everyone has done throughout the day when he has been at school - wasn't interested in me, just, did I behave (me, just if my daughter is upset and needs help to deal with it, I just give advice)
Never has dreams or nightmares - screams in sleep, occassionally (me, sometimes, dream a bit)
Never gets up in the night (even for the toilet-still wets the bed) - No, she gets up ( have trained my bladder, but will get up)
Never discusses memories of anything from the past - yes but has been the victim of others (remember bad ones mostly, but that's a survive mechanism in the brain?)
Does facial contortions when being spoken to - yes
Never strokes the cat but will pick it up and drop it - she seems to like animals (me, don't like cats, they use you)
Terrified of dogs and other peoples’ cats - no (me, no)
Terrified of water even the shower - no, but can't swim (me, no)
Refuses to wash, clean teeth or change clothes but gets annoyed if told he smells - no, must have good grooming to appear attractive to others (me, no)
Never comments on beautiful scenery, sunsets, rainbows, pictures etc doesn’t seem to notice anything of beauty - probably (me, definately no)
Never praises anybody or anything - YES, YES, or praises others kids/family, as if saying we are crap (I will if they are exceptional, otherwise if it's their job..... If I feel someone is being mistreated, I will over-praise to help with esteem and give the abuser the finger)
Constantly asks the time even when wearing a watch - never noticed (me, won't wear a watch)
Asks ridiculous questions he obviously knows the answers to and repeatedly when the same situation arises again - Yes
Never expresses any feelings for anybody even his grandmother who dotes on him - loves and supposedly cries for her abusive mother. Was that saying, she loved me, you don't, me victim? (me if I didn't want to do something, but I know mostly everything, INTJ personality)
Never thinks of doing something nice for anybody even to repay their generosity - may do, just to appear nice
Never helps around the house and gets aggressive when asked - not noticed (I do, but not enough)
Bodges chores so he won’t be asked to help with anything - yes, you never showed me, I don't know, I forget, your fault (no, I would not have anyone think badly of me being slack)
Looks, acts and sounds a lot younger than 13 years old, very babyish manner including speech - no (me, no)
Closes the blinds and takes all his clothes off to go to the toilet - closes every blind in the house, prison (me, not really)
Stands so close to his father when we are out that it is difficult to move - not noticed (me, dead now)
Steals things however trivial - has done (me, have done)
Never cries - no, cries for affect, seems staged (I have Psychopath traits and even when beaten/hurt would not cry. I would never give them what they want, would not show emotions, would not lower myself. I cry now)
Never shows any sadness even when others are very upset or in pain - if does feins it and sounds ingenuine (I used to think crying was indulgent, they aren't crying for the lost one, they've gone, it's about them and what they are missing out on)
Has an addiction to chocolate and will spend all his money on it and hides to eat it - likes chocolate (so do I)
Never shared his chocolate or anything else with anyone - does, but she is an adult


Edited by Mug42Long (03/05/12 05:32 PM)

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#12801 - 03/14/12 11:39 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: Anonymous]
dreama Offline
member

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 18
I wanted to post a comment for any parent of a child suspected of having a personality disorder, behavioral disorder or worse, a diagnosis:

I don't know if my earlier posts from last year are still available.
I sincerely and empathetically want to convey that I have been (and still am) in your shoes.
In my lowest moments, I grieve and feel resentment, anger and remorse that I 'allowed' my ex to rob me of over 31 years of my life (starting at age 16). He is currently incarcerated (again).

I have two sons, now 15 & 16.
Both have been variously diagnosed (since the ages of 7 & 8) with ADD, ADHD, ODD, Bi-Polar, Conduct disordered, fledglings, etc.
Their father has been diagnosed AntiSocial. So has their older brother (age 22, different mother), and their dad's brother (a hedonist and convicted twice of child molestation), and their 2 male cousins on their father's side. Although my ex's father was never officially diagnosed, there is little doubt the apples did not fall far from the tree.
There obviously exists some 'dark' genetic component. Of all these males, it is important to recognize that (except for my ex & his brother and my two sons) all these males have been raised by different women, in different geographical locations, spanning 3 generations. Every male has lengthy criminal backgrounds, except for my two sons (yet? - God willing, not ever?).

In fact, the state wanted to remove my younger son and send him to an RTC (residential treatment facility).
Although my life has been HELL, and I have disintegrated from a hard working, ethical, moral, empathetic, successful, and healthy woman to a shell of what I was, I could not YET give up on my sons.

I am not a superior individual nor do I think I am a better mother than any of these males had.
I am just a fighter, I guess?
I love my sons with all my heart.
I have always tried to concentrate on the fact I love them, not their behaviors.
I had to do that, or I would have (literally) killed myself a long time ago.

So trust me, I GET IT - how you are feeling.

I could write pages and pages of details I have experienced over the years, months, weeks and days.
In fact, my youngest son physically attacked me last weekend.
But I try to remain strong, centered, loving and focused.

I am not a martyr or a fool-hardy woman just asking to be victimized.
After 2 years, and countless doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, agencies, neurologists, medications, etc, I have been enlightened: my sons are not fledgling AntiSocials. They are ASD. Very high functioning ASD's. Brilliant in many areas, in fact. Developmentally stunted however. For those that are unfamiliar, I am talking about Autistic Spectrum Disordered. Some call it Asperger's - though I find that label can mislead a significant population away from the truth of the disorder. There is a SPECTRUM.

I leave this information for you in the hopes of helping even one family recognize the mistakes I made earlier which have caused irreversible trauma to not only me, but my sons especially. You see, I am also ASD, come to find out. Just diagnosed at 46 years old. I didn't get the 'meanie' version (as I relate it). But my lack of identifiable disorder and lack of ABILITY to recognize and rebuff the negative aspects presents present in another ASD limited the quality of life I would experience.

My salvation came only after working intensely with a Godsend of a therapist for 16 months, spending several hours a week with her. After 9 months, we really began dissecting the apparent behaviors from what could be inducing such behaviors. Required 100's of hours of my own self-introspection that was guided and gently overseen. Hopeless turned into a realization that I was unable to effectively communicate details of my own life and emotions because I 'trained' myself to NOT be self aware of my physical body - that is how I coped & managed life.

In the end, I was able to identify MANY causes for behaviors in myself and thus, was better equipped to peel back the layers that helped to explain my son's as well. Yu want to talk about Light bulbs going off! lol

Is it okay now?
No.
Scars take a long time to heal - especially the scars of a parent living in distrust of you, not being able to 'connect' with you and thus even coming to fear you. We simply did not understand their where worlds inside of us each that were so very hidden and buried, thus not perceived by others. It was lonely and frightening for us of us. Because we are ASD, our ABILITY to forgive was hindered because we were unable to ACCEPT. It is after all, a developmental delay. I am 46 and my learning ability has grown, along with time and experience.

I can only wait, hope and pray, that time will afford my sons the same?
I don’t mean to leave this comment to invalidate any person nor confuse.
Be gentle with yourself and understand that you ARE strong and capable and you WILL get through these days of horror. The way I look at it is this: NT kids are a bear nowadays, lmao. We just have more challenges.
The way to get through it is to go through it, right?

So while I have no quick remedy for your current situations, I can only say that KNOWING what you are working with is half the battle. For me, it is not EASIER on a day by day basis sometimes. But it IS getting a little bit better every day. For my family, the major challenge is the lack of available resources to assist because I am already 46 and my sons late teens. The earlier intervention can be provided, the better. It is not too late for my sons, but now that I am unemployed, their ages and the lack of available support negatively influences us. That is why I make a plea to any parent to spend time researching ASD and if you suspect your child could possibly be affected with the disorder > RUN, don't walk > to locate an autism specialist for an evaluation ASAP!

Early detection is the critical variable in your quest to live as quality an existence as possible & to provide the same for your child(ren). In any case, a COMPETENT thorough evaluation can assist you in determining your best course of action for you and your child and/or family.
God Bless you all always - you are not alone.
~Dreama

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#12921 - 03/24/12 02:12 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: Anonymous]
kezza Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 10
Hi Jan, I suspect I'm dealing with a fledgling narcissist but I'm not sure; he's soon to start talking to our school psych at his teacher's recommendation. He's eight. I have a definite, absolutely clearly psychopathic partner, his father, still in our life because I can't safely get rid of him yet. My son's half-sister is also definitely suffering Narcissistic Personality Disorder. These things are believed to be genetic. Her symptoms echo what you've outlined. She would smile, sneer, but I never heard her laugh out loud joyfully. I've never known anyone so curious (nosy, we said), manipulative, vain or selfish or cruel to her siblings, but I always was aware of a massive insecurity; the changing clothes in hiding, bed-wetting till about age 10, stirring up trouble with her siblings at every opportunity (she was constantly bored and dissatisfied with life and felt she had to make it more interesting). Do these sound like your child's traits?
She is also very charming to those she wants to manipulate (such as me) and we have a great rapport; she has no idea that I know what's going on, of course. I dread the day she has children. She doesn't seem to like children at all, yet she has always insisted that she will have at least 8, that they will go to such and such a school and there will be four boys, four girls etc. I shudder for any she does have!!

But I was very interested in the characteristics you outlined, which I saw covered in a recent documentary about psychopaths and psychopathy in children. Have you had him assessed, perhaps through the school so you don't have to pay? I think you must! His symptoms are startling. It also springs to mind similarities with my nephew's Asperger's Syndrome, except for a few, which are closer to psychopathy according to what I've read and seen. It would be a great thing if you could have him assessed, as then you'd know what to do; that's why I'm doing it. I've read that narcissism is the precursor to psychopathy, that traumas and frustrations in their lives leads them up the scale to the latter. I have yet to confirm that.

So far, my son is showing an inability to lose at games (is totally destroyed by that), bossiness with other kids, inability to share, and his ability to empathise seems to be decreasing rapidly, this past year in fact. I seem to be suddenly losing my sweet boy. I hope something can be done to prevent this descent.

Have yours assessed! Good luck!
Kezza

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#12922 - 03/24/12 02:35 AM Re: Observing Psycho [Re: Damaskrose]
kezza Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 10
Hi, I just wanted to say you must not beat up on yourself this way. I believe you could not have changed a thing. All you would have done, which would have been worthwhile though, is saved yourselves some of the bewilderment and distress. You'd have known and predicted what you were dealing with. My son appears to be developing this narcissism (he's 8) and soon to be counselled; I do not expect change. But I do think I'll learn how to reduce the potential damage. His half-sister nearly destroyed their family; she is definitely NPD. Now at 18, she is charming and arranging her life through university as she wants it to be; she'll go on to manipulate and hurt others outside the family now. They never had her assessed, and went through the same trauma and bewilderment. In fact, she even managed to break up her mother's new relationship, which then meant the selling of the house they'd bought together etc. It's a pity they gave in to her so much.

I'll be on to my son's tricks and ready to circumvent them a lot. Having him assessed and diagnosed will also help any women he takes up with; if they need help to determine what's going on, the history will be there. So it's worth doing. But because I've read so much about the genetic causes about this condition, I can say that I'm sure you could not have changed the course of its development; nor can I. The amygdala in their brains just doesn't function; researchers have not been able to find a way to stimulate it. That's the area of the brain responsible for emotions.

I will try to teach my son what I can of empathy; but what he acts on will ultimately be up to him.

God help us all!
Kezza

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#16292 - 04/09/14 04:27 PM Re: Observing Psycho [Re: ]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi heartbroken, she may be starting to use forms of gaslighting which as time go on will be used as a tool to destabilize others and have control.

People who gaslight do things like move your keys around (as a simple example) and get you to start thinking you are crazy when you go looking for them.

Di

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#16330 - 04/23/14 06:51 PM Re: Observing Psycho [Re: Dianne E.]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
A RAD story: RAD video story

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#16428 - 08/07/14 07:13 AM Re: Observing Psycho [Re: ]
Tangent Offline
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Registered: 08/04/14
Posts: 8
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: heartbroken
Wow, I could really relate to your passive aggressive games. Our psychopath child has mastered that. Yes, hiding other children's school work to see them get in trouble for losing it, or taking their things just like you would to hold as a trophie. Yes, creating all kinds of drama so she could sit back and enjoy the different chaos she made with everyone. If they have a smile on their face, you can bet it isn't because of happiness, but she is feeling control (demonic smile). Psychopaths respect no one. They are so narcissistic that they see everyone as stupid but themselves. We got our daughter tons and tons of neurofeedback. I even saw a healthy normal child at one point, but she went back and turned that right hand hemisphere of the brain off. She likes the evil rather than peace and happiness. Her brain scans show this right hemisphere completely shut off. The neurofeedback causes the left side to wake up the near dead right side. But, she didn't and doesn't want to be healed. They actually get a euphoria from controlling others and causing torment. So, they become addicted to the drug so to speak. She embraces her condition with all that she has, and it is really sad. So, don't beat yourself up that if you could of done this or that, your child would be better. You can't help someone (even a child) who doesn't want to get well or who doesn't want help. Psychopaths usually like their own condition as I have experienced and read. They happily embrace it.


Thanks for sharing this interesting information about neurofeedback. My partners 19 year old refuses counseling. She puts a lot of effort into maintaining her position and condition. Its all working out great for her especially with the help of the sycophants who seem to get something out of going along with her games.

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