Well, I guess I meant women who remain in 'relationships' (I was going to write 'loving relationships' but that didn't seem quite the right words) and in such 'relationships' seem addicted to a man, whom they have 'chosen' to stay involved with - and who(the man) continually oversteps the line in his social/personal/emotional behaviour ie a P - in that sense their determination to stick-it-out might be from some sort of self-belief in their power to change/restore/ etc .... rather than a P in the family (which involves all the ties of blood and kin) from which -of course- it is much harder to escape. Staying involved with a family member cannot therefore be called an 'addiction'
Anyway, after I posted that, I changed my mind. I think now, that women stay in sexual relationships with P men because it like a sort of riddle or puzzle, a compusive who-done-it, in which the ULTIMATE answer to why they did it (or didn't do it - ie behave properly) is a continual brain tease. Just like a book or movie that 'hooks' you in.
Also I think that all people have a sort of compulsion to revisit things that don't work out right or hurt or need fixing in order to have another go at refixing it - that too is a hook. Children it seem to me often try to re-live the mistakes of their parents in a vain attempt to fix things. I once heard the saying that Doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different outcome was a sort of madness. Maybe we're all bonkers!
Do you think also that after life with a P, the calm without one, feels scarily odd, unsafe, false, as if it can't be trusted, will shatter - or maybe even dull (in a perverse sort of way? Do we grow to depend on that state of tension to gain a sense of being alive - defined by living so close to the edge...)
?
S

Sarafina,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Actually after revisiting my childhood memories of my mother and her relationship to my p father there is some truth to your earlier allegations. Her drive was to redeem my father. She was a devout Christian and my father of course was atheist. And of course my mother never could redeem my father or get him to change his ways. I think a lot of it was power struggle between the two of them. My father never defeated my mother, who had a huge sense of internal integrity, but her integrity kept her in a marriage with an evil man and gave him free reign, allowing him to warp the whole family.

I think you are so right about the puzzle these guys represent. It wasn't until I let go completely (and it really felt like I was ripping his hooks out of myself) that all the puzzle pieces fell into place and I was able to let go of any thoughts that his behaviors had anything to do with me.

You know these guys are so facile (they REALLY ARE people of the LIE) and they always have a manipulative way of making everything they do your fault. It isn't. Sometimes it takes a lot to realize that. That is especially true for someone like me who has to work so very hard at a "good" self image because of the damage my father did to me. We are easy targets just for this reason... my own internal image is one of guilt and badness because this is the gift my father gave me for never being "good" enough to warrent his love and regard. Never mind a P doesn't ever experience love and never has it to give. All that is adult understanding.

Anyway, thank you again for your provocative thoughts.

Diane1969

Sarafina,

I also wanted to address a question you asked (though it might have been rhetorical).
_________________
Do you think also that after life with a P, the calm without one, feels scarily odd, unsafe, false, as if it can't be trusted, will shatter - or maybe even dull (in a perverse sort of way? Do we grow to depend on that state of tension to gain a sense of being alive - defined by living so close to the edge...)
?
S
__________________________

I am having many reactions to being without the P in my life.

The first was that my energy level immediately rose to a huge degree. The difference was so great that it was literally astounding to me.

The second was fear. Once I realized that all his puppeteering, coercion, manipulation, affairs - all his behaviors with me and others - are rage and hate based, I knew that my taking myself outside his control was a dangerous act, one with unforseeable consequences.

The third is that I miss the yoke. My life has literally been defined by this relationship, and I find that I automatically pick up the phone to call him whenever anything good happens in my life. This response is odd, considering everything good happening in my life at the moment concerns establishing my freedom from him. So, I found an ideal new house that he won't run across by chance. I almost called him to tell him about it. I had a particularly succesful therapy session where insight was gained around this relationship - and again, I had to check myself when I reached for the phone.

The fourth response is the best of all - peace. Now I finally have begun to feel real peace - not the psuedo kind that comes from abdication of responsibility to the control of the P; but real peace, peace within myself, peace that my father is finally at rest; peace that there is the possibility of a bright future for myself and my children.

The fifth response is anger and hatred, and this I know I will have to work through if I am ever to truly be free of him. I am so angry at how he treated my children and angry at myself for not seeing it for what it was. I am angry that I let him dishonor me in so many ways for so long. I am angry that I set aside my own natural strength to cater to his weak character. I am so angry that I let him entwine himself so thoroughly into my life and psyche that I couldn't see my children's needs. And I hate him for all the damage he does to everyone he is involved with.

The sixth response is having my eyes open to how much work I have ahead of me to repair the damage done, to myself, my friendships, and my children.

Diane1969

And there is a seventh response. Now that I feel I have broken these false connections to this guy, I feel contaminated, like I need a month long soak in a very soapy tub. Ewwww!

Diane1969

WOW Diane - it was good to read all that! It confirms what I've felt for a long time that the 'hooks' the P personality sinks into his/her victims are very deep - maybe even so deep that life after the P is like Life after Death, not the same, but at least a life that can be worked on and lived to the Max. That is of course if, like kicking any addiction, you can stay clean - no contact maybe is the solution.(Hey and after the Ex P no new Next P!!)

I think the anger may be a mask for sadness. Anger has more currency, you can explain it and explode with it, and ALSO you can put it out there squarely on THE OTHER (Blame again? ??) but sadness is a burden that is unsharable and unacceptable. I certainly feel weighed down by all kinds of sadnesses - for the damage done, for the time lost, for the relationship that wasn't... for the creature I've become, for the self I've lost... for the victims I failed to protect....

And I suppose for the sadness I feel I will carry forever, and the life I might have had - its like a sort of grieving process I guess.

Still I'm hoping the old saying 'Sadder but Wiser' has some hidden benefits, certainly I can recognise a P now and that's a start!

Enjoy that bath!

Dear Sarafina,

Yes, and yes, and yes!

I so relate. It is a whole different world when you realize how much of yourself was wrapped up in the P, supporting, nurturing, stabilizing them when they go out of control... And it is very different when you have all that time and energy free to put it where it belongs, in my case with myself and my children.

It is hard. I still have times when I think I've overreacted. Thank goodness I journalized so much and I can go back to the facts I recorded, all the weirdness, all the lies and their consequences. These guys can be masters of illusion. It is good to have the facts at hand to remember the truth.

I still don't know that I will never be involved with this type again, but now I have a better tool-box for dealing with it if I discover the same kinds of twisting discrepancy. And I have sworn I will never go through this again. So that is something.

Diane1969

Hi everyone,
Back after a short time of relative piece - only one violent assualt (broke into his ex-girlfriend's house and threatened her new boyfriend with a knife, and after that one getting stranded half way up the M5 and then breaking into his grandmother's house and taking her car to get home (100 miles ) - my mother - she was on holiday.
So what do I do? I think after my big push to establish rules I got complacent. So new rule number one - Never ever underestimate a P. When you are at your most trusting they strike !
What to do about it? I guess start the search again for middle ground where the P can be made to toe the line and I can live with the other stuff - locked doors, locked phones, no cash in the house etc.
How are the rest of you getting on wuth your Ps - Jade? Jan?

Still I do hope you have an eventless Christmas with some peace and some goodwill.
Sarafina

Hi Sarafina, do you get the sense that his violence is on the increase? Threats with knives etc. tell me that there is that ability if push comes to shove to act out and not just threaten but harm or kill. I don't mean to sound harsh in any way but setting boundaries for a Psychoapth is like trying to herd cats.

Is it possible that maybe the focus should be on your and your daughter, sadly, there isn't anything that has been discovered that will "heal" someone who is a Psychopath. I worry that more boundaries will only provide a risky challenge to try to out fox you. A psychopath has a need to be in control and it will be interesting how long he lasts observing your rules. It sounds like your living situation must be a form of hell.

Do you have any ideas how to make it better and work things out? I think breaking into his grandmothers house and stealing her car is a big problem and shows his lack of any kind of boundaries.

It will be interesting to see if you find any ideas on how to reach a middle ground.

All my best,

Di

Hi Sarafina

I've beengoing through a bit of a rough patch but I'll be back soon.

Thanks for asking.

Jan