Hi,
I'm new to this site. I found you in a desparate trawl of the web looking for help. My son has all the recognised symptoms of a P excepting cruelty to animals. He is also an addict. He is out of touch with the kind of concern he creates in the family and had progressed from moodiness when he doesn't get what he wants to verbal aggression and physical (body language) intimidation - he is a six foot 25 year old -. As far as I know he has not YET assaulted anyone in the family but last Christmas he threw his younger sister 5ft 2" and less than 8 stone to the floor and smashed a glass on the floor. It was very scary. What I'd like to know is does a P progress from verbal assault to physical as a matter of course? He gets into fights outside the family and has one conviction for carrying a bladed instrument and one for assault (a girl in as night club who bumped him)??
Very worried.
Sarafina

Hi Sarafina

I’m pleased you found this forum, you will get a lot of support and information from the people who post here. Sometimes it’s just useful for contacting someone so you don’t feel so isolated with your problem. At worst it is a great place to have a rant when there is something you can’t sort but need to get off your chest.

My partner’s son appears well on course to be a P although only 13 years old. Does your son live with you? If he does I can imagine how difficult that must be. What made you think your son is a P and when did you first recognise the signs?

I didn’t think my partner’s son was cruel to animals but then found out he was but only with very small animals like kittens, although I knew he would kill any insect he could get his hands on including ladybirds. As he is so young and physically weedy violence hasn’t’ been a problem so far. Like with animals he is a coward so his violence comes out in destruction and stealing, he is very sneaky and underhand.. I’m not sure that he won’t get physically aggressive when puberty kicks in. He is very immature emotionally as well as physically so don’t know when we will get the full flush of hormones, mainly testosterone!

I suppose in a way we are lucky he is so small as he couldn’t attempt anything physical apart from once trying to stop me going in his drawers when he tried his best to restrain me but wasn’t strong enough. No doubt that day will come. He didn’t want me to go in his drawer because he had hidden 3 days of wet pyjamas in there even though we never even spoke about his bed wetting problem and there was certainly never any punishment. We have since found out he does it on purpose to punish us when he doesn’t get his own way so maybe you could call it a sort of aggression..

I would like to hear more about your story but unfortunately I haven’t got the experience of a 25 year old P like you, in fact you can probably tell me what I’m in for. Have you looked at the research section of this forum-you may find some answers there.

Best regards
Jan.

Hi Jan, (am not quite sure how to use this site so this reply may appear twice - sorry)
Thanks for responding so quickly. Sounds like you have a horrible time with your P. Sadly it doesn't get any better. Mine is not too smart so I have escaped much fraudulent and manipulative behaviour. (e.g. If he could work out how to forge my signature or use my bank details on the internet, I would be broke by now). Also, he can't be bothered to cover his tracks or lie for very long - you see - he really doesn't care what I think anyway - and he is terminally lazy - so it all becomes as he puts it too, 'Long,' and so he says anything to shut me up -including the truth if that works!
We have had some interesting chats. He tells me that predators are necessary so that prey can develop survival skills - and that assists the human race in becoming smarter. Sometimes I can't really follow his logic.

I read some of the discussions earlier on this site and find much that is similar. My P also suffered with encopresis as a younger child. His half brother (father's side) has similar traits as a P although as I don't live with him (thank GOD!)as well, it is hard to be sure, but he (the half brother) suffered with bed wetting until he was seventeen and got a girl fried - when it stopped. Their father, my ex-husband, is I believe also a P. He (the father who also bed wet) has another son /another half brother to my P - the dad was very promiscious - who is now a diagnosed schizophrenic.
If anyone else is reading this and finds it hard to follow - it is! My son, the P, seems to have come from a family that have some relatively severe mental disorders. These were cunningly hidden from me until after I married except for the nick name they gave me as 'The Provider'. I soon learnt exactly what that meant, and after four years escaped - not before I had had my P with him though.

Life at home ? - of course my son the P lives with me - who else would stand him? Where else would he go? is a sort of living nightmare in which one never knows what will go wrong next, I dread hearing his voice on the phone when I am away from home, as I know it will be some new desperate situation out of which I will crawl, poorer and more depressed and more exhausted than before.
He does things to sabotage being left- steals car keys and crashes/ abandons car, steals holiday money, steals passports, a lot of it is about money. He can't get or keep a job. There is always a reason why - an upcoming court case, or no mobile phone (?)- talking of mobiles, he cannot keep them for some reason - they disappear - but he can steal the sim card out of mine and sell calls to foreign parts on it. I don't have a contract line now so that if he steals my sim card it will only have a fiver or so on it. Well I guess we can all tell endless stories, but I am interested in the link between violence and development of a P and also the hereditory aspect of it. His father, Primary P, spends most of his time in prison now for either theft or violence... but what is curious is that when I realised what Primary P was like I divorced and took my P son to another country where he had no contact for thirteen years with his father - so it is not modelled behaviour, BUT with every year that passes he becomes more and more like the Primary P - is that usual?
Hope you'll post a reply,
Cheers Sarafina

Hi Sarafina, welcome to the forum.

For my two cents, my guess from reading quite a bit about garden variety abuse is that it does escalate. That is why they say if someone in your life slaps, hits or gets physical it won't get better without help. In the case of a Psychopath and the lack of being able to work things out in therapy I don't see any way your son would change. This is only my opinion.

Does your son live with you? Do you know what kind of drugs he uses? Sometimes drugs can make a person appear to be a Psychopath for instance Meth can cause some symptoms like violence, stealing, etc.

What was his life like during his growing up years?

Di

Hi Sarafina

Don’t worry about getting used to using the forum, I still make blunders and quite often lose a long diatribe into the ether. I always type my posts in Word now to avoid it happening again.

There are so many similarities….the laziness I know well. Everyone can be lazy at times but the P seems to take it to extremes. The F(Fledgling)P will also tell the truth occasionally when burdened with the effort of being questioned. He is not too smart either and I can always outwit him by considering all possible outcomes to any given situation.

I have also read that the psychopathic gene is a very strong gene, because of the P’s in-built selfishness and lack of conscience they make sure that they survive by using whatever methods they can such as promiscuity, lying, cheating, stealing and general parasitic behaviour. It makes sense when you look at it from an evolutionary point of view. They can walk all over anybody to get what they want.

FP’s mother has mental health problems as does his father’s brother, he has Narcissistic Personality Disorder so the genetic predisposition comes from both sides. His mother is verbally aggressive but as far as I know not physically violent. Her new husband has been to hell and back with her too but they seem to be surviving (he was a heroin addict) but he now works and has a car and disposable income so FP has rekindled contact with his mother and step father as they will be easy pickings for him. He has already tried to extract a mobile phone from them because we won’t supply him with one for many reasons apart from the fact they are banned at his boarding school. He lied to her saying the one he had got put through the washing machine(he has never had one) and the reason he didn’t phone her from school is because there isn’t a phone (totally untrue-the boarding house has a special booth so the kids can make private calls). I supplied him with enough coins to make 80 phone calls but he spent the money within the first week and only made 3 calls home.

FP has been with my partner for the past 7 years since he was 6 so his behaviour should be more influenced by his father but as each year goes by he gets more like his mother, he does and says exactly they same things as she does and that is not modelled behaviour.
I have been told by Dr Viding that it is a developmental disorder so would not have been so obvious during his early years although there would have been some red flags if his family had been more clued up about what was normal behaviour in childhood. I would say FP is also a primary P i.e. born that way. There seems to be a trigger factor which sets them off on their path and a recent TV program suggested it can be the birth of a sibling or a new parental relationship. Both of which were definitely true for us.

I don’t know whether you have read Dr Essi Viding’s research on the development of the condition, I think Di posted it in the resources section but if you can’t find it let me know and I’ll send it to you.

It must be so difficult for you as it is for my partner as he desperately wants to believe his son “will grow out of it”. It is his only child and such a disappointment to him and he naturally wants to love his child but in his deeper moments tells me he doesn’t even like him. He talked about unconditional love but I don’t believe there is such a thing, we all have to earn love and respect from others. That is the love is blind syndrome-I suppose Hitler’s mother loved him unconditionally. It is a projection onto the P of what we would like them to be. Is there anything you can say you love about your son? You must have some fond memories of when he was small.

I would love to know how your son’s problems developed if you could bring yourself to tell me. I feel forewarned is forearmed.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards
Jan

Hi Sarafina, Sorry that this is a bit rambling, but I wanted to get a few thoughts down:

My brother's violence certainly esclated over the years -- at least to the extent that he was able to get away with it. He was often in fights, and beat my younger sister once (chipping a tooth) because she didn't do something he askd. He always had a strong sense of self-interest though (an understatement), so he always knew exactly how far he could go without jeopardizing himself.

I believe that Dr. Hare is an advocate of teaching criminal psychopaths that crime is not in their self-interest rather than making an appeal to morality. I suspect that deep self-interest is what keeps many of them under control. My feeling is that the danger with violent psychopaths is that they may come to believe that they can get away with greater violence, even killing -- that they might come to believe that they're smart enough to outwit the authorities.

I was certainly always afraid of my brother -- there was an aura of danger about him, and I never knew for sure what he might be capable of doing if provoked. He died several years ago, and I will admit that lying under the terrible grief for such a wasted life was deep relief that I wouldn't have to look over my shoulder anymore.

In terms of the question of the heritability of Psychopathy, I'm pretty convinced that psychopaths are born, not made -- my brother didn't have any children (that would take being in a relationship for a while and it might also mean that his wife or girlfriend would get 'fat' -- something he despised). However, my frandfather certainly was on the continuum of psychopathy, and it may be that there is a genetic component, though I understand that mothers of psychopaths often report difficult births or pregnancy problems. Could it be that genetic vulnerability combined with other problems creates the right environment for the development of psychopathy????

Dear Diane,
Sorry this reply is late. I shall try to answer your queries. Yes, my son lives at home, my home, my London flat, with me and my daughter no. 2 (16yrs). He smokes cannabis all the time (skunk preferred), and crack in phases - when he is down for some reason- e.g. has a court case that carries a custodial sentence coming up, or has a row with important others (me and his ex-girlfriend and mother of his daughter);has been robbed of his gold 'bling' chain or 'video' phone during a fight or by his 'friends'.
Recently, and due to some change in our circumstances - not the least being discovering this website, I have been able to be more firm. I now have an exclusion plan and am in the process of carrying it out. This week I excluded him from the flat for 24 hours for smoking crack in the home. He stayed away for ten hours but came back crying at 9pm that he was hungry and no one else would have him. I fed him but was determined not to give up on my system to protect my daughter and I - and I made him sleep outside.
I don't know how this system will work. I also have some internal exclusions planned (his room has an exit to outside), if he continues to use verbal violence and intimidating behaviour. Fingers crossed he will figure out its better to be nice than nasty.
Wish me luck!
As a child briefly, he was a a high forceps delivery with some trauma to his neck tissue and cranial bruising. I divorced his father when he was ten months and took a new partner when he was about two. His first sister was born when he was four. As a baby he was responsive, happy, walked early, talked early, cut teeth, didn't fuss too much about being weaned at a year old, but has ever since never drunk milk - I think in annoyance and disgust that it wasn't mine. He suffered from encopresis and I didn't handle it well, as I felt it was a reflection on my bad mothering, but apart from that he was popular and not unkind to his sister, once carrying her over two fields in the spring - when she suffered an asthma attack - and literally saving her life.
He had a good relationship with his step father, but he(step dad) was unfortunately a weak and mostly absent father and my relationship with him did not work. Still X seemed happy enough, loved football had a charm that seemed to get him masses of friends.
However, he was slow at school and learnt to read only because I sat with him ever night for an hour (I'm a teacher). He was impressionable, one teacher saying "X is only as good as the child he sits next to - and unfortunately he always sits next to the idiots,"
He was always lazy, and as he got older, selfish too - taking the girls' Easter eggs and eating them ALL. He could not delay gratification at all and did not seem to learn from the consequences of his actions - often the whole family would go to great lengths to shield him (which I still do)from the consequences. He developed an addiction to sweets which ruined his teeth (he was too lazy to brush them) even extreme dental agony did not teach him to stop secretly eating sweets all the time. He was too lazy ( I say lazy because he had home tutors to help him as I knew he was slow)to do ANY academic work. Subsequently he was expelled from his school in Form 2 for academic failure and that was after repeating as well. He then attended an American School (where academic pressure was not the entire focus - more was directed at thinking skills and citizenship )- he stole a Video player from the Geopgraphy Department of the American School in Year 10 and was expelled from that school too. During the intervening years he took up with known low life - drug users and theives who used him as his family had money. He however aspired to their level and came back to England and became a 'youth'in a hoody on the streets of Brixton. I got him into Westminster College but after two terms he dropped out. By this time he was using crack and cannabis freely. I think, now, he aspires totally to their life style and value system in which it's all out there -the system -and he is its victim, ergo- he must steal and lie and be 'harsh' etc etc... I do hope you can shed any light on his behaviour, mental make up as I'm searching and searching for some intellectual angle on him, as the emotional side of my relationship with him is so draining. Sometimes I feel like it's a death sentence on me - one where if I die he will have no other to support him, and if I live he will kill me off either directly or by default so to speak. A terrible situation.
Sarafina

Hi Jade, Jan and Shelley,
Sorry I didn't realise if I reply to one, it posts to all! Didn't want you to think I'd not appreciated your responses. As you can read from my reply to Diane, my son really started to go sharply down hill at around 13 years old after his first expulsion from school, although the cracks were there long before. I think it was his aspiration to become a 'gangster' that started the BIG trouble - here I mean the drug misuse and the anti-social behaviour. From then on it has got better and worse so to speak. He has (finally)learned that repeatedly offending will end up in a prison sentence (so far he has escaped mostly because I show up with him at sentencing and they think 'Hello what a nice middle-class mum - from Cheltenham Spa [one judge ACTUALLY said that!]and sounds so well spoken - he must be a child who is just a little off the rails - forget that he has broken and entered the homes of others and admitted to handling stolen goods - we'll give him a suspended sentence and let mum re-educate him). I failed to do so. Now I refuse to go to court with him, so he has learned not to mug people any more, because without me there in court handling the barrister and smiling at the magistrate, he might not get off. So I suppose in that way it's better. He limits his anti-social behaviour to driving offences and passing on fake twenty pound notes(yes to me before I realised), dealing in a little drugs, running up debts and sponging off anyone who cares about him.
Like you Jade I cannot abandon him. But recently through this forum I am getting tougher. I'm excluding him in an escalating serious of sanctions first offence 24 hrs next one week etc for serious things and a swift 24 hour internal exclusion for theiving or shouting or intimidating me. I don't aim to change him, only to be more in control of my own home and get some peace, and train myself to be tougher. If as a by product he changes it will be good. He however has not suggested that he wants to change (ie give up the drugs for a start) so at the moment it is me out there toughing it out. The one joy is my daughter is sighing with relief and cheering 'About time Mum!'
Oops have to go, will finish this soon.
Would appreciate more hints on how to handle a P.
Please keep replying
Sarafina

Hi again,

I would say that my brother was a P/NP combination. He was an exceptionally attractive child and very bright. He learned early on that this was great currency and used it extraordinarily well. There is nothing like a handsome, articulate, charming P for trouble -- he really got anything he wanted from everyone around him. Everyone (peers, teachers, family members) admired him and catered to him.

I was older and left home early so I missed a great deal. I know that the obvious stuff -- school trouble etc -- was never really a big problem. He could talk/charm his way out of anything. Nothing was ever his fault. By the time he was in his mid teens he really blossomed as a P, but I missed much of it since I'd left home.

I knew he had been in a number of fights in bars etc, but always managed to keep out of trouble with the police. The fights were always someone elses' fault or he was there only to help out/protect some damsel or some such story. He lied with exceptional skill.

During these years (late teens early 20s), he was exceptionally cruel to his younger siblings who basically worshiped him. He belittled them and seemed to enjoy hurting them; he sexually abused our youngest sister; he beat and belittled our youngest brother. When our sibs were in their older teen years, he relaized that their admiration was worth something. By that time, they were working and he . . . well, he always had money. He had a wealthy girlfriend, drove her car, but had no job.

He was very promiscuous, but kept the wealthy girlfriend on the hook (a nice woman who was warned by my sister to keep her distance for her own sake, but the girlfriend replied, "I don't want to hear this. I already know all about you and your family and your jealousy and hatred of X.") In the meantime, my brother kept company with another wealthy (but much older) woman in another city.

I learned later that he frequently forged cheques from our siblings' bank accounts (but they never had him charged because they loved him: You know the drill.) Things would go missing in my apartment, but I never really made the connection till much later.

In later years (when he'd temporarily worn out his welcome)
he moved away, calling whenever he was in trouble and needed cash -- and one of us would always give it to him. Once, he called us because he was involvd somehow with someone's death (a complete misunderstanding, of course. He was frightened, he wanted help to talk to the police, and he needed money to fly home). The siblings rallied, came up with the cash for airfare and sent it to him. Of course, he never showed up. I even naively called the police to try to clear things up, but by then he'd completely disappeared again.

By the time he was an adult P, he was scary. His life hadn't gone the way he expected (wealth, fame) and I think he felt owed and betrayed somehow. I didn't know the term P at the time and had no idea what was wrong with him really, but I always had a deep fear that someday he would turn up at the door with a gun and kill my entire family. It seemed the kind of thing he could do. When he showed up out of the blue for a family wedding, I don't think I slept the entire time he was there.

Did I mention that he wet the bed into his 20s? I often wondered what he did when he slept with a woman. Or maybe he never spent the night.

Well, that's at least some of the story. The violence and potential for violence seemed to grow over the years as he was thwarted in his goals. He seemed to somehow blame the family -- maybe his own lies became the story he believed in the end. But it seemed (at least to me) to make him more dangerous.

In terms of advice for dealing with a P, my feeling is that you can't and don't. If someone I loved was involved with one, I would tell them to get out, run, get as far away as possible, and don't ever look back.

Shelley~

Hi Shelley,
Thank for telling me about you brother. I know exactly what you mean by that sense of smothered violence. Recently I removed all the kitchen carving knives from the flat - not because of any explicit threat, but because of this insidious aura of potential danger. I don't know if it makes me or my daughter any safer, it certainly makes chopping up vegetables a lot harder!
Strangely enough there are some more similarities between your brother and my son. Both it seems are/were good looking. My son is breath-takingly handsome. Or at least he was. His stunning almost egyptian Ahkenaton like profile and six feet of toned muscle (he is vain and works out)are eclipsed now by an ever increasing sly and criminal look about the eyes. I used to feel the waste and the pity was twice as bad because he looked so good on the outside and was so rotten beneath- almost as if fate had conspired with him to manipulate me/others to the max. Now his true colour is showing a little more I feel his good looks are scary.
However, like Jade I also feels this unbareable sympathy for him. In his eyes the world has cheated him of his right(again fame and wealth)and I sense his impotence to change that and his despair at the only conclusion that he can come to -ie- that he, himself, is lacking- hence his bluster, blame and bullying. His denial unto death (mine probably as I'm the only one who tries to regularly confront him with the 'truth' as we see it)that it is anything to do with him. (there are some exceptions here - every now and then he ruefully admits he deserves what he gets - but whether that is yet another form of manipulation I don't know - I tend to think not as it often comes at the end of a long denial and he really isn't smart enough to work that out )
And I worry what will become of him if I cease to offer him some form of shelter. It's unnatural somehow to put myself before his welfare or at least un-motherly. My main strength is my daughter - what I can't do for myself against him, I can do for her.
I was interested that you said your brother seemed to blame the family or that you expected him to turn up with a gun and shoot you all. I wonder why they would have been his main target? And why it does appear that the family is the target in other crimes of psychopathic violence. Is it because they (Ps) are used to getting away with things in the family? Is it because they blame the family for cheating them of the wealth and fame owed them? Or hate the family for deserting them (quite resonably of course if you fear your son will kill you)? I'd be interested in your views on that.
I'm working on my home situation anyway, in the light of all this it does make a vey radical future plan imperative. Right now I've just got to maintain a holding pattern to see my daughter through sixth form and off to uni (1 and a half years now) and then I can escape too. However, as we all have to be in London and I'm not a millionaire (London prices make you faint)we will have to continue sharing a home. In a way there is some miserable security in the Devil you know who isn't mad at you (yet)- compared to the Devil you know - out there on the loose- who is mad at you. I know that if I threw my son out he would be very mad. And as he threatens: 'Don't get me mad. Don't make me loose my temper: I can be very spiteful when I'm mad.'
Words I don't ignore.
Sarafina

Hi Sarafina

It was interesting to hear what you said about siblings. My partner’s FP son seemed to be very brotherly and kind to my 18 month old niece but I was later told by her mother that when they all went out for a walk he asked to push the buggy, he got away from them and was swinging the buggy round so hard as if to throw her out. At 12 years old I would not expect that sort of aggression towards a toddler. He is always falsely charming but it wasn’t until someone witnessed and reported his behaviour that it made me very concerned and I re-assessed my feeling that he wouldn’t hurt another child. I now would not leave him alone in a room with either a kitten or a small child.
He is extremely spiteful to other older children but is too cowardly to do anything physical apart from steal from them.

It was when his sibling was born he started making his mother and step-father’s life a misery, so much so that she asked my partner to take him away. He wants to be the one and only and in total control.

I found zero tolerance the best tactic more for my sake than for his because I know there is nothing I can do to change him. He knows he can’t fool me and it really annoys him but he still won’t change. It seems to be his life’s goal to fool people.

I have just gone back to one of your earlier posts and came across something interesting that your son was a forceps delivery, R was a suction birth which caused a temporary cone shaped head-maybe some significance in birth trauma.
We still have the enuresis and encopresis, in fact the bedwetting is getting worse. This week I also found 2 pairs of wet underpants hidden in his room. He must have wet them ages ago and I didn’t find them. He is now 13 ½ years old and it looks like there is no end in sight to that problem We don’t even mention it so as not to give it any importance and that may be why he has gone back to hiding wet things to draw attention to it.

As for the laziness….R does it to perfection. I’m constantly amazed at how well he does it but unfortunately apart from lying and stealing he doesn’t do anything else well. His school work is abysmal and he is most unpopular with all the staff especially the boarding staff (state boarding school in UK-thank goodness for credit cards).
R is also addicted to sweets and chocolates and never shares them, I don’t even know where he gets the huge quantities from but judging from the amount of wrappers he leaves lying around it wouldn’t surprise me if he shoplifts. His teeth are in a terrible state, I even bought him an electric toothbrush to encourage him but no result. Hygiene is not on his agenda.

I wish I could shed more light on this for you but I’m still looking too. As I’ve said before on this forum it’s so much easier for me because I have emotionally detached from him completely as well as giving myself the right to dislike him. Affection/love whatever you call it isn’t unconditional, it has to be earned. No doubt that statement will ruffle a few feathers but I do believe in all honesty that it is true. Could Ian Huntley’s mother honestly say she loves her son? Or Hitler’s mother? What would we think of them if they did? What would love mean in that context----hey that’s a bit philosophical!!!

I think I’d better finish now or I will be ranting forever. Every time he comes back for holidays its sets me off again.

Regards
Jan

Hi Sarafina,

Yes, he blamed my parents because they did not have the money or lifestyle to give him the things he felt he deserved. He absolutely despised their working class lives and felt that they held him back in some way. He was angry with me for cutting him off, and in the end, I think he was quite unstable mentally -- inclined toward paranoia.

I loved my brother very much and his death still pains me terrribly, but when he was alive, I was afraid of him.

Shelley~

Hi Jan and Shelley,
Thanks for your speedy replies. The more I read on this site, and the more I compare experiences, the more I find similarities. I suppose I am still searching for - if not a 'solution' at least a resolution - to the fact that my son is not 'ordinary' and is probably a psychopath. Do you think there are degrees of psychopahy? Do some seem to be worse than others (by worse I mean unable to sustain normal or non-psychopathic behaviours for longer periods - or are more prone to non acceptable behaviour)? I am searching here for a way to define a continuum between 'mild' and 'severe'- any ideas?
And does the condition get worse as the individual begins to fail at all the myriad things he/she has scripted for their famous and wealthy future? Or does the condition just worsen with age? What 'treatment' does the state or individuals offer? How can we help Di on this site amass all this research to make some 'use' of it beyond its obvious support for those of us who are the victims of Ps ? I think I'm probably still at the stage of wishing for a good fairy and a magic wand. I'm schooling myself to accept that a good 'heart to heart' cannot possible reverse ten or more years of awfulness, but you'd be surprised how many of my friends are still asking 'Have you talked to him and told him how you feel?' or 'Has he tried a counsellor?' as if it was a new kind of sweetie he'd be gagging to test out!
Talking of sweets, and development. My experience is that my son seems to be easily addicted to things. And sweets soon became drugs. So I guess (Jan) that is one thing you may need to educate yourself on prior to your FP becoming an addict. The P behaviour gets much worse during drug addiction cycles and phases. Sorry for the bad news.
If you notice any extra weird behaviour and can't place it I'd be ready to help, being by now a mini expert on the weird and irrational life of a P on hard drugs. By the way I looked for the article you mentioned but didn't find it. I'd love it if you could get it to me.
Gotta go, thanks again,
Sarafina

Hi Sarafina,

Yes, nearly all behaviors, personality types, and psychological disorders can be described on a continuum from mild to severe. I certainly believe that psychopathy is similar in that the level of emotional detachment and anti-social behavior is not consistent across all Ps. Some have very severe anti-social behavior (e.g., serial killers) some have moderate to severe levels of callous-unemotional response.

As far as I know (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) there is no real treatment for P. Dr. Hare has advocated teaching Ps that their anti-social behavior is not in their own best interest; however, attempts to induce empathy are more likely to make "better" Ps -- those better able to mimic the kinds of sympathetic response that comes naturally to most of us.

I also understand that many Ps are highly addictive -- mine was addicted to alcohol and several other substances. When he started having seizures when he was in his late 20s, we thought he had epilepsy --imagine! We were all so very naive: We fretted and worried over his health, never dreaming what was really going on. . .)

I know that lots of people believe that bad parenting is to blame for the development of P and they're inclined to believe that you can just love the problems out of these characters; however, I think that's simplistic (and dangerous).

In terms of the influences that lead to P, my best guess would be that there are multiple paths:

1. Directly through genetics. (Good evidence for this)
2. Physiologically through biological/developmental weakness.
3. Stress-diatheses model (often used to explain schizophrenia and other mental health problems -an d Here's where social influences come into play.)

For some people, the combination of multiple physical and environmental stresses generate P: You have someone with a biological or genetic weakness/predisposition toward P which, under very good environmental circumstances leads to someone who perhaps struggles, has some emotional limitations, but makes out okay in the world.

Alternately, you have someone with a biological or genetic weakness/predisposition toward P who grows up with multiple environmental, social, and personal stresses (abuse, addiction, intellectual limitations) whose resources are stressed beyond capacity. They also could grow into a full-blown P.

So, from my perspective, biology is the primary source of P, but socialization/environmental factors can play a role where a biological predisposition exists.

Jan, perhaps this is where Dr. Vidings research comes in? You said you were meeting with her next month. Here's a question for her if you don't mind:

Would a stress-diathesis model explanation fit with her data? We'd have pure (for lack of a better word) psychopaths who are born with high callous-unemotional levels.

Then we'd have those born with a biological/genetic weakness perhaps demonstrating moderate callous-unemotional levels at age seven. Are these the children for whom the stresses of the environment will matter most? Will Dr. Viding be able to control/check for environmental stresses in her follow-up to see whether these kids callous-unemotional levels increase?

Shelley~

Hi Shelly,

I think you summed up nicely on your last post, though I did do a double take on this :-

"I also understand that many Ps are highly addictive --".

after that I was expecting "to women"

;-)

Hi JustAman,

Well, yes . . . that too :-)

That was rather badly phrased though, wasn't it? (Ah well. Sometimes the little hamster falls off the wheel . . .)

Shelley~

Hi Sarafina

I tried to post Dr Viding'sfull article for you but wasn't able to do it. Perhaps Di can post it in the Research section. Here is a link to the journal where you can get the article by going to Dr Viding's article and then you get the option of reading the full text.

http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/

You need to have cookies enabled to use this web site.
Best of luck.

Jan

Hi JustAMan,

Why do you think it is that P's are so addictive to women? It took me over a decade to finally be able to see the P for what he was and that only after he had taken everything I offered the relationship and twisted it and used it to hurt me.

If this had been a business relationship I would have cut him off in a heartbeat.

Why is it that women, in your opinion, are so addicted to them? I am really interested in hearing your opinion on this.

Diane1969

Hi All,
I think women are attracted to the P personality out of a kind of arrogance. An intelligent, educated ,attractive woman believes that she can change, reclaim, convert etc and uses all her drive to that end. Her obvious failure acts as a spur to 'work harder' as obviously she must have got it wrong/ done something wrong/ be guilty of some negligence... etc that's theory one ...theory two might be that such a woman living in a culture where equality is somehow a norm, strives to find a mate to subdue her (sexually and emotionally) and finds only the P is resistant enough to be fair game for her obvious prowess... provocative ideas?..... any thoughts?
Sarafina

Whoah! Haha, well I've never been accused of being arrogant before. I am a successful woman in one regard in that I do own my own business, but my drive has always stemmed from my own damaged self worth because of being raised by a P. So I have always been an overachiever to prove my worth, rather than being arrogant and demanding with others, and therefore successful for that reason.

In my personal interactions with the P, it was more an effort to understand this person because he was so much like my father who died when I was fifteen... that and the struggle to remain in the relationship and remain accepting of him without going completely insane. That was the hard part.

I can't speak to anyone else's experiences or motivations for being with their P's. Those are just mine.

Dianne1969

Well, I guess I meant women who remain in 'relationships' (I was going to write 'loving relationships' but that didn't seem quite the right words) and in such 'relationships' seem addicted to a man, whom they have 'chosen' to stay involved with - and who(the man) continually oversteps the line in his social/personal/emotional behaviour ie a P - in that sense their determination to stick-it-out might be from some sort of self-belief in their power to change/restore/ etc .... rather than a P in the family (which involves all the ties of blood and kin) from which -of course- it is much harder to escape. Staying involved with a family member cannot therefore be called an 'addiction'
Anyway, after I posted that, I changed my mind. I think now, that women stay in sexual relationships with P men because it like a sort of riddle or puzzle, a compusive who-done-it, in which the ULTIMATE answer to why they did it (or didn't do it - ie behave properly) is a continual brain tease. Just like a book or movie that 'hooks' you in.
Also I think that all people have a sort of compulsion to revisit things that don't work out right or hurt or need fixing in order to have another go at refixing it - that too is a hook. Children it seem to me often try to re-live the mistakes of their parents in a vain attempt to fix things. I once heard the saying that Doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different outcome was a sort of madness. Maybe we're all bonkers!
Do you think also that after life with a P, the calm without one, feels scarily odd, unsafe, false, as if it can't be trusted, will shatter - or maybe even dull (in a perverse sort of way? Do we grow to depend on that state of tension to gain a sense of being alive - defined by living so close to the edge...)
?
S

Sarafina,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Actually after revisiting my childhood memories of my mother and her relationship to my p father there is some truth to your earlier allegations. Her drive was to redeem my father. She was a devout Christian and my father of course was atheist. And of course my mother never could redeem my father or get him to change his ways. I think a lot of it was power struggle between the two of them. My father never defeated my mother, who had a huge sense of internal integrity, but her integrity kept her in a marriage with an evil man and gave him free reign, allowing him to warp the whole family.

I think you are so right about the puzzle these guys represent. It wasn't until I let go completely (and it really felt like I was ripping his hooks out of myself) that all the puzzle pieces fell into place and I was able to let go of any thoughts that his behaviors had anything to do with me.

You know these guys are so facile (they REALLY ARE people of the LIE) and they always have a manipulative way of making everything they do your fault. It isn't. Sometimes it takes a lot to realize that. That is especially true for someone like me who has to work so very hard at a "good" self image because of the damage my father did to me. We are easy targets just for this reason... my own internal image is one of guilt and badness because this is the gift my father gave me for never being "good" enough to warrent his love and regard. Never mind a P doesn't ever experience love and never has it to give. All that is adult understanding.

Anyway, thank you again for your provocative thoughts.

Diane1969

Sarafina,

I also wanted to address a question you asked (though it might have been rhetorical).
_________________
Do you think also that after life with a P, the calm without one, feels scarily odd, unsafe, false, as if it can't be trusted, will shatter - or maybe even dull (in a perverse sort of way? Do we grow to depend on that state of tension to gain a sense of being alive - defined by living so close to the edge...)
?
S
__________________________

I am having many reactions to being without the P in my life.

The first was that my energy level immediately rose to a huge degree. The difference was so great that it was literally astounding to me.

The second was fear. Once I realized that all his puppeteering, coercion, manipulation, affairs - all his behaviors with me and others - are rage and hate based, I knew that my taking myself outside his control was a dangerous act, one with unforseeable consequences.

The third is that I miss the yoke. My life has literally been defined by this relationship, and I find that I automatically pick up the phone to call him whenever anything good happens in my life. This response is odd, considering everything good happening in my life at the moment concerns establishing my freedom from him. So, I found an ideal new house that he won't run across by chance. I almost called him to tell him about it. I had a particularly succesful therapy session where insight was gained around this relationship - and again, I had to check myself when I reached for the phone.

The fourth response is the best of all - peace. Now I finally have begun to feel real peace - not the psuedo kind that comes from abdication of responsibility to the control of the P; but real peace, peace within myself, peace that my father is finally at rest; peace that there is the possibility of a bright future for myself and my children.

The fifth response is anger and hatred, and this I know I will have to work through if I am ever to truly be free of him. I am so angry at how he treated my children and angry at myself for not seeing it for what it was. I am angry that I let him dishonor me in so many ways for so long. I am angry that I set aside my own natural strength to cater to his weak character. I am so angry that I let him entwine himself so thoroughly into my life and psyche that I couldn't see my children's needs. And I hate him for all the damage he does to everyone he is involved with.

The sixth response is having my eyes open to how much work I have ahead of me to repair the damage done, to myself, my friendships, and my children.

Diane1969

And there is a seventh response. Now that I feel I have broken these false connections to this guy, I feel contaminated, like I need a month long soak in a very soapy tub. Ewwww!

Diane1969

WOW Diane - it was good to read all that! It confirms what I've felt for a long time that the 'hooks' the P personality sinks into his/her victims are very deep - maybe even so deep that life after the P is like Life after Death, not the same, but at least a life that can be worked on and lived to the Max. That is of course if, like kicking any addiction, you can stay clean - no contact maybe is the solution.(Hey and after the Ex P no new Next P!!)

I think the anger may be a mask for sadness. Anger has more currency, you can explain it and explode with it, and ALSO you can put it out there squarely on THE OTHER (Blame again? ??) but sadness is a burden that is unsharable and unacceptable. I certainly feel weighed down by all kinds of sadnesses - for the damage done, for the time lost, for the relationship that wasn't... for the creature I've become, for the self I've lost... for the victims I failed to protect....

And I suppose for the sadness I feel I will carry forever, and the life I might have had - its like a sort of grieving process I guess.

Still I'm hoping the old saying 'Sadder but Wiser' has some hidden benefits, certainly I can recognise a P now and that's a start!

Enjoy that bath!

Dear Sarafina,

Yes, and yes, and yes!

I so relate. It is a whole different world when you realize how much of yourself was wrapped up in the P, supporting, nurturing, stabilizing them when they go out of control... And it is very different when you have all that time and energy free to put it where it belongs, in my case with myself and my children.

It is hard. I still have times when I think I've overreacted. Thank goodness I journalized so much and I can go back to the facts I recorded, all the weirdness, all the lies and their consequences. These guys can be masters of illusion. It is good to have the facts at hand to remember the truth.

I still don't know that I will never be involved with this type again, but now I have a better tool-box for dealing with it if I discover the same kinds of twisting discrepancy. And I have sworn I will never go through this again. So that is something.

Diane1969

Hi everyone,
Back after a short time of relative piece - only one violent assualt (broke into his ex-girlfriend's house and threatened her new boyfriend with a knife, and after that one getting stranded half way up the M5 and then breaking into his grandmother's house and taking her car to get home (100 miles ) - my mother - she was on holiday.
So what do I do? I think after my big push to establish rules I got complacent. So new rule number one - Never ever underestimate a P. When you are at your most trusting they strike !
What to do about it? I guess start the search again for middle ground where the P can be made to toe the line and I can live with the other stuff - locked doors, locked phones, no cash in the house etc.
How are the rest of you getting on wuth your Ps - Jade? Jan?

Still I do hope you have an eventless Christmas with some peace and some goodwill.
Sarafina

Hi Sarafina, do you get the sense that his violence is on the increase? Threats with knives etc. tell me that there is that ability if push comes to shove to act out and not just threaten but harm or kill. I don't mean to sound harsh in any way but setting boundaries for a Psychoapth is like trying to herd cats.

Is it possible that maybe the focus should be on your and your daughter, sadly, there isn't anything that has been discovered that will "heal" someone who is a Psychopath. I worry that more boundaries will only provide a risky challenge to try to out fox you. A psychopath has a need to be in control and it will be interesting how long he lasts observing your rules. It sounds like your living situation must be a form of hell.

Do you have any ideas how to make it better and work things out? I think breaking into his grandmothers house and stealing her car is a big problem and shows his lack of any kind of boundaries.

It will be interesting to see if you find any ideas on how to reach a middle ground.

All my best,

Di

Hi Sarafina

I've beengoing through a bit of a rough patch but I'll be back soon.

Thanks for asking.

Jan