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#520 - 08/15/02 08:51 AM Re: Sex and the psychopath
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kris,

Unfortunately there was a whole heap more evidence, and my fear is that some of it is walking around, and its been giving me the willies for about six years since the extraordinary supposition came into my head. It fits the facts and not just selected facts. And it fits the circumstantial aspects - all of them.

Regards


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#521 - 08/15/02 11:11 AM Re: Sex and the psychopath
Anonymous
Unregistered


As has been discussed, on this thread, sex is a portal into the depths of a human being, into the soul. It is not random coincidence that sex is the ultimate expression of love, although we may tend to forget that, in these times when we can turn on the tube and hear whole families bantering back and forth about the purely physical mechanics of sex, according it the same weight and sacredness as a soccer match. But no matter how desensitized we become to the sacred in life, the laws which govern the sacred remain the same. Sex is a sacred act, capable of opening a portal between the physical realm and the spiritual realm, through which a soul can pass from one realm to the other. This is what happens when a child is conceived, and this is what happenes when "two souls are joined as one" or two people experience the sacred while joined as one.

Doubters might say, "Oh, please, animals have sex and conceive. They are hardly expressing the sacred in themselves when they do." But human beings are not animals. We share in the nature of animals, and we also share in the nature of God. We occupy a realm, spiritually, above the animals. Not that animls have no spiritual nature, but theirs is different. Animals actually are amoral. Governed by instinct, they have not been gifted with free will. Humans have the choice to honr the sacred in their sexual selves, or to serve the animal in their sexual selves.

A person who is disconnected from the sacred in themselves and others, disconnected from their soul, from God, behaves sexually, according to their instinctive animal nature. The sexual self is not mediated by higher impulses. Wherever such people see sex, they take. I believe that it is common for psychopathic (or otherwise personality-disordered) parents to "take" from their own children. And that this is one of the links between psychopathic parents and psychopathic offspring (only one, and not a factor in every case).

What happens to the sexually abused child? How does this stunt the child's capacity to love? A child experiences love through how the parent "loves" him/her. The child's soul is somewhat more naked and accessible than an adult's soul. Part of the work of becoming an adult is the development of boundaries, which comprise the self, and protect the naked soul. The very young child is enmeshed with the mother, and real mother love aims to guide the child in development of his separate self. Real mother love is love of the child, "the other". False mother (or father) love is really love of the self, and perhaps unconsciously, but out of the drives of its true nature, seeks to claim the soul of "the other" (child) for its OWN self-gratification. The child's value to such a parent is its potential for gratifying the selfish drives of the parent.

When a parent touches a child sexually, the child experiences a cataclysmic horror, like being eaten by the parent. The loving guardian transforms into a devouring monster. Whatever fragile boundaries of self have begun to develop are shattered for there is simply no deeper intrusion into the sacred realms of a human being than the sexual path which leads right into the soul. This is death to a small child. Soul death. He has no means of protecting his soul.

Often, I believe, such children will remain the infantile primordial soup that they were born. They will never develop a self. And a self is necessary for directing the work of making choices and becoming a full-fledged human being. They will view the world as a pool of sharks out to devour them, shark eat shark, have to eat the other sharks first.

However, I don't believe that this result is written in stone, either. I know that my husband's mother molested him. She used to carry on to me about how she always thought she would die of jealousy if her son ever got married, that she used to gaze at his little manhood and think it would kill her if he...you know. She was such a fool she had no idea how sick and wrong her attitude was. And I so bought the "wonderful mother crap" that it took me years to figure it out. But I also know my husband molested my two daughters (I did not know it until a few years ago). And, while both of them are deeply scarred, and misguided about some things, both have hearts, and the ability to make moral choices. They have selves, boundaries. They are walking the path of full-fledged human beings.

So while early childhood sexual abuse is, without a doubt, in my view, a contributing factor in the formation of some psychopaths, it does not necessarily equal a psychopath, either.

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#522 - 08/15/02 03:01 PM Re: Sex and the psychopath
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kris, its easy to see how upbringing can damage a person, in fact its obvious. But I am convinced that remorselesness is pure genetic. I mean, if a guy is going to mess around with his kid, there's something seriously wrong, and his kid will have it. Anyway, I don't give a stuff about her- she fluttering around the old Bast--d when he was sixty five. And her cronish mother - that was a good expression you used- "a ridiculous woman". She was a Doctor alright- she probably worked a combined total from beginning to end of seven years, and considered herself as a dear and glorious physician. I wouldn't have trusted her to get nits out of her own hair. She was another one who was "dying" about twenty years before she actually made good and keeled over good and well. I was in Karachi when I heard the news. I ordered a Gin and Tonic from room service instantly. (Not entirely straightforward in Karachi, so to lessen the pain of the evening's administration with filling in the forms, I actually ordered four. I got them too). Three days later her younger sister keeled over. All that lot were oohing and ahhing that dear Mother in Law had "come for her". My remark at the time to my dear ex wife was that if I had any idea of the principle, that kind of thing didn't happen from heaven. Anyway, younger sister had been the favourite aunt of ex wife and dear brother in law. They didn't bother to stay for the funeral a couple of days later. Cool eh? Regards

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#523 - 08/15/02 03:23 PM Re: Sex and the psychopath
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, none of us really knows for sure what makes a psychopath. But we do see certain factors over and again. And other psychopaths in the family is certainly one of those things.

One thing most of us agree on is that the families of the psychopaths...at least the ones we married...were not our favorite people. (Nor were we theirs!)

Happily, most of us unloaded a whole train carload of unpleasant characters when we dumped the psychopath. I spent last weekend with my daughter. She was exclaiming over her great joy and relief in being rid of all her nauseating relatives, and she's only 26, got a baby, and you might think she would feel some sadness at having no big extended family to share it all with, but nothing of the sort. She does have that on her partner's side, and she has me, and her sister's family, and she's pleased as punch to be rid of the rest.

There are actually a few of them I can bear, but not one that I miss.

As my daughter puts it, "I never felt that any of those people loved me." And that is true even of the best of them. None of them loved us because we weren't part of the sticky incestuous communal glob that is "them".


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#524 - 08/18/02 03:47 PM Re: Sex and the psychopath
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kris,
I am having difficulty thinking about the psychopath and sex topic and have not posted for a while. There is something you wrote about surviving vs "I just kept going". I don't want to be argumentative, but would like respond to it.
I don't know the exact definition of a survivor, but to me it is a person who keeps going. A victim stops. Those who keep going, will eventually find their way through and out of the situation, or the situation around them will change. It also seems to me that to be a survivor does not mean to be free of scars or pain after getting out. It simply means to keep going.

There is a book about a small child who survived a horrendous battle here. It is a true story, and the child wrote it after becoming an adult. Although it is told as an autobiography, and is slso about the facts of the battle as seen through a child's eyes. The book is about war as experienced by a non-combatant, and it is about survival. This child was about 5 or six when the battle began. She lost EVERYone and every thing. She had no idea where she was located, nor where she was headed. She just kept walking. She ate the supplies of dead soldier from both armies. She ate anything she could dig out of the ravaged earth. She had no awareness of what was going on other than the fact that her current surroundings were horrible, and she was hungry, she was dirty, and she was living through a nightmare. She walked alone, in the wrong direction, through the worst part of the battle, without knowing where she was going. She later learned that she had walked in a circle, and even ended up near where she had started. She slept in craters created by shelling. She is a survivor, she didn't even have an awareness of anything beyond the few yards of terrain that was her immediate physical surroundings... She is a survivor, she just kept going. Eventually she was in a safe place, mostly because the battle had ended. She survived not because of her knowledge, skill, or a plan to get out. She survived simply because she "kept going".

-Leti

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#525 - 08/19/02 07:22 AM Re: Sex and the p
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Leti,

I totally agree with you about being the most difficult of betrayals. Finding out that he was out there still looking just floored me. Even when I confronted him about this, he would deny and then said he forgot about it. For a long time, I blamed myself. I should have walked right then, but I didn't. I thought may be he won't find someone else or tried not to think it. I was in denial. What we need to realize, Leti, that we could look absolutely perfect and he would still be out there because that is the way he is---getting his thrills from chasing. I think that emotional intimacy is not in their vocabulary and for most of us, that is a very difficult for us to understand. Beenthere

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#526 - 08/19/02 08:11 AM Re: Sex and the psychopath
Anonymous
Unregistered


Leti, Thank you for the beautiful story. You have lifted my self esteem up several notches. You are so right. Survival isn't about being unscathed, unscarred, in perfect health, strong as an ox. It's so easy to forget that in this culture in which we are all supposed to be flashing smiles full of blinding white perfect teeth as we flex our strong tanned bodies while jogging through surf. Had I been untouched by my life with the psychopath, while it's true I would not be chronically ill, broke and sexually dysfunctional, I would also not be clear about who I am, I would not know God, I would not be 50 years old, I would have remained 20, clueless and vulnerable to psychopaths.

You lose some things. You gain others.

Thank you.

kris

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#531 - 08/22/02 11:37 PM Re: Sex and the psychopath
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kris,

When I read this post I could see you with a tan running down the beach with your hairing flying in all directions. I've just recently found this site as I've posted a few times before. Since then I've read almost all of your posts. What you do here is amazing. You are rich in wisdom and compassion. You are beautiful in being open and sharing the tragedy of your experience. We are all vulnerable at any age. We need to help keep each other well and from harm's way. Would you have touched and supported so many so deeply had you not been through all of this?

50 is a cool age, in any condition. To truly know God is cool too. I didn't know him before my p in the way I know him now.

If one thing could change in your life right now that would make the biggest difference to you, what would it be?

C.

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#532 - 08/23/02 12:16 AM Re: Sex and the p
Anonymous
Unregistered


Been there,

How very true, the more and the more taboo the better to a p.

I recall after I'd been with my p a few months and we were on vacation he looked down at me when I was laying on the bed and he said "You really ARE beautiful." It bothered me for years until a few months before I finally left him. Last summer he said to me one day, "You really ARE beautiful." I said nothing to him either time.

But now I can see all the other times he had said it to me or to any one else on the hook at the time, it was a line. He didn't mean it, only those two times. For some reason those were about the only two times I ever believed him. He hated me really. He loved the illusion and the trap he made for me, not me. He was seeing a former girlfriend who was a lawyer throughout our relationship. She wasn't beautiful in the physical sense. But I wonder about the lies he told her about me. She was never my adversary except when I dreamed he was with her when he passed me over. He used to tell me I was jealous, which I wasn't. I just finally got so hung up on wanting to know the truth and was so unprepared for what was really happening. He's out there still preying on teengagers and nieces, maybe daughters of his divorced girlfriends. He hated it when his friends liked me. I stil can hardly comprehend this type of evil exists and goes unrecognized and unpunished.

What is it that gets us through?

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#533 - 08/23/02 10:04 AM Re: Sex and the psychopath
Anonymous
Unregistered


Cooper, Thank you so much. Your words have touched me in the place where I live. No, I wouldn't have been able to touch others suffering as I have had I not suffered it myself. This has become the major gift I see as my life having given me. Almost everything else was taken away. But this is what I have to show for my life. I understand good and evil. And I may be able to help others understand it. That is true of all of us. We help each other understand.

If one thing in my life could change right now that would make the biggest difference to me it would be publication of my book. I have been working to achieve this every day for six months. I feel a burning, driving commitment to seeing this book make its way into the world. If that happened, I could die a happy woman (I'm not dying, just a an image of the importance of this to me.)

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