Hi Maria...

What it says about you is that you were a good person who probably believed in him more than he deserved....gave him more chances than he deserved...because you wanted to believe in the good.

Yes...maybe there was insecurities...and other issues that contributed to that behavior...but...u know what..join the club...who doesnt have issues and insecurites...

SO...we got conned...we got taken...it was horrible...but now we know...now we can break free...now we can heal...and now we can do our best to make sure we dont let our insecurities...or anyone/anything else...lead us astray that way...

You will get through this...as a matter of fact...you ARE getting through it...and setbacks are expected and allowed...as long as u keep pushing forward...and not let the setback knock u down too hard...

Much love, Vanessa

Maria,

You said:

In reply to:

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I know - he will never provide closure because it's something he knows I want, need.

---

It is that, but it is also more than that. There is a reason that people feel like they are being fed on by P's, why P's bring up images of babies who can't let go of the breast, why they are talked about as hollow empty beings. They really do have personalities that are that empty and unformed. They CAN'T give anything of substance to you. They have no internal reference system for it. All they can do is take and feed and hurt you when you withhold what they need and feel is theirs by right - the very essence of you.

The pity is that this is something that is a lifelong dysfunction that does not ever get better no matter what. And proof of that stretching back behind you and around on all sides are the destroyed lives and hearts of good men and women who tried to love them enough to give them what they need to heal and to try to teach them how to be human. It never worked and it never will.

Giving closure entails having enough care and love for another human being to give them their selves back. It is what we all do as adults when we end a relationship. P's don't have enough substance inside to care for another. More their punishing and withholding makes more sense in terms of the infant that smacks the mother when the breast is withdrawn. Mother equals breast at that early time. P's never develop their sense of others beyond that - a source of what they want and need.

Because of this P's are wholly unsuited for life as an adult and they have none of the strengths necessary to exist as an adult in an adult world. Think of your own strengths for a minute even the tinies ones. The P lacks these.

But what they have is the ability to spin illusion through their lies. They can't give substance but they can give the appearance of substance. They use lies to entice you. They use lies to hook you. They use lies to fabricate reality around you. They use lies to compartmentalise their lives to protect their lies. My P's favorite joke was, "Lie to me. We can be friends." That is actually his reality.

When their lies fail, which they ultimately do, they have no substance to replace it with. All they can do is either try to lie some more or rage at you or hurt you to control you where their lies have failed.

What your staying with him says about you is the same thing that it said about all of us who are victims of P's. You are a steadfast and loving human being, who is faithful, nurturing, and strong, and most of all GIVING. P's are vampiric. There is a reason he picked you out of the pack.

Diane1969

Hi Deb,

Yup, music with it's uplifting, freeing quality is amazing. I realize I too didn't listen to music much while dating the P. I also didn't read very much at all which is I had previously loved. It's ironic that while with Ps, we stop doing the very things that can help alleviate the effects of their poison.

I recall after I broke up with the P and we got back together for a few months, he had a CD of symphony music in his car which I thought was odd since he had never shown any appreciation for that genre before. Granted people's taste change but in his case I was sure it was just pretentiousness - an attempt to cast himself in a different light. I kidded him about it and his P laugh confirmed my belief.

Sylvie

Sylvie,

You said "It's ironic that while with Ps, we stop doing the very things that can help alleviate the effects of their poison".

I honestly think that the reason we do that is out of self-preservation. P's hone in on the things we love so they can corrupt them in some way to use them to divide us against ourselves. I think sometimes it comes down to either willingly walking away from the things we enjoy or being turned against them ourselves and losing them forever. My ex could actually have turned me against the very music that I love and I think that would have made him very happy because I would have lost a part of me in the process. But instead I let it go so he no longer had that target.

In a backwards kind of way it is like that saying "If you love something, let it go...if it comes back to you it is really yours and if it doesn't come back it was never yours to begin with" (HA HA, probably terribly misquoted, but you get the idea).

For me, living with my ex was like being in some horrid hostage situation for 20 years. Psychologically, I was held in a little room under a bare lightbulb while someone tried desperately to get the information out of me that he wanted to know. Then one at a time, things that were important to me were brought in and I was told that I had to give up my information or this very important thing would be destroyed. A choice. Looking back, I can see how I just pretended that the important thing was not so important. Once he believed that, he quit trying to use that particular thing to break me and hurried on to find another.

Subconsciously I knew that someday I would get out of that little room and then I could reclaim all those important things. Because I had willingly given them up and made them seem unimportant, they were not destroyed.

I think that is why we give up the things we love. When you are with a P, it is either give it up or have it torn away and destroyed. As we go about picking those things up again, maybe we should congratulate ourselves that we outmaneuvered our P's by doing it the way we did.

Hurray for us, Slyvie...hurray for us.
Regards,
Deb

Deb,

Yes! I completely agree with what you said. And the image of being in a little room with a dangling lightbulb is perfect.

Once I started seeing how my P would manipulate information and use it against me, I would feed him information that he thought was useful, when in reality, it was something that I didn't care much about. This WAS a form of self-defense that I had, unwillingly, used, and looking back now, I realize how much energy, effort, and thought I spent in trying to keep afloat, which explains the absolute exhaustion I felt for the 2.5 years I was with him. I also now see that my support network (friends, family) also provided me with the 'life jacket' to stay afloat when I felt I couldn't do it anymore...

-maria

Hi Deb,

I totally know what you mean that some people do that out of self preservation. That's a good point. I can't honestly say that was the case with me when it came to music and reading because the P didn't live with me, so I had some time to myself and those activities would have helped me maintain my identity. Also, he would have run into serious resistance if he tried to control me to that extent. He did try in other ways though and did a lot of damage in those areas, so I can relate to what you're saying. I let go of a lot of valued friendships at that time but luckily I have reconnected with many of them. Says something about the calibre of my friends!

I agree, good for us. Absolutely!

Regards,
Sylvie

I can relate with all above posts, my ex would find out what my interests were and share this information with others (friends and family) trying to make fun of me for my interests by putting me down over my likes and dislikes. Looking back at it all now, it appears she was jealous that I had interests outside of catering to her needs and wants.

I really think pathologic envy is one of the core features of a P. My ex P would salt the earth before me, before my children, before each of his "friends." It is all envy.

Diane1969

Why did we stay? What DOES that say about us? I think it says that we are capable of truly loving. Since I have experienced so much of the OPPOSITE of love from those closest to me, I use the below reference to help me recognize love:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
I Corinthians 13:4-7

Didn't we do all that? The patience. That hope, oh good gravy, I remember the hope so well. That he could change. That it could/would be different and OK. How long did we all persevere? Give it another chance, just a little longer and maybe the relationship would work after all.

I beat up on myself for so long after my divorce for hoping and trying for as long as I did. But I don't think love would have done anything else. I see now that there was nothing to beat myself up for. I loved.

We truly loved and there is nothing wrong with that.

One sign of depression is not doing things that used to give you pleasure. The P selfishly tries to isolate you from what and who you love so that your entire world will become him and his needs!

Music and reading are two of my favorite activities to keep me sane. The longer you spend with no P contact, the more alive you will feel. At least that's the way it's been going for me.

Ken...syntheory.com