Hi
Someone mentioned that Dr. HAre has a check list for children. Anyone know where I could find it?
Thanks
Val

Hi, thanks for joining the forum. If I may ask how old is the child you are considering having tested? There are some "threads" at the top of the forum you might read regarding RAD.

The new test from Dr. Hare is a Youth Version and it is a youth version of his adult screening. I think a professional has to take the training to be able to conduct the testing. It is for ages 14 - 17.

Please let me know if there are any questions at all you need specific answers to. Jan, one of our members who is also an Administrator is very familiar with the RAD (Reactive Attachment Disorder) diagnosis which is what seems to be the diagnosis given to children pre adult. The checklist for RAD reads like the same symptoms as the adult checklist.

Di

Hi Di,
The child concerned is going to be 10 years old soon. Has been diagnosed with reactive attachment disorder (5 years of age), ADHD and ODD.

I wonder if Jan has any experience with what RAD/AD looks like 5 years on with a lot of therapy along the way. Do children actually ever "recover"?

Is it common for ODD to be mistaken for attachment disorder?

I did look through the threads here and found some interesting information.

Thanks!
Val

Hi Val, Jan has been very busy but I am sure she will be around soon.

Just my own two cents I would be very careful with therapy (this only my opinion). It makes adult Psychopaths worse in most cases, Jan can probably let you know how it works with children.

Can you list some of the areas of concerns, i.e. the things he does so when Jan has time she can address those issues since she has first hand experience.

Di

Oh, therapy definately did not work.

Presents with complicated emotional and behavioural issues thought to relate to suspected neglect by birth mother from a very young age. Birth mother abandoned child at age 3.

Here are just a couple of things that spring to mind immediately:

- From about age 4 a lot of anger, rage and opposition.
- Inappropriate use of toilet (soaks bed virtually every night, will urinate on self during the day, hides feces, smears feces, not wiping properly, soiled self regularly up until about a year ago)
- Lies cheats steals inside and outside of the home
- steals things that do not make sense/ does not need
- Damages property (picks paint off walls of room and makes holes in walls of room, breaks windows, etc.)
- Never seems satisfied with anything
- insatiable needs (tends to overeat)
- inappropriate touching (sexual)
- no fear of strangers
- obsessed with minor injuries
- unusual interest in natural disasters (knows how long it would take to burn down a house)
- very guarded - does not talk much
- sneaky
- is a chronic non-responder to behavioural modification rewards based systems
- behaves as though developmentally delayed but is higher than average intelligence
- pretends he cannot read
- Is rarely present in the moment - appears to always have something else on his mind, waiting for a better opportunity, a new need
- verbal and physical aggression
- unmedicated expresses anger frequently as primary emotion
- medicated expresses saddness
- any emotions in between seem fake

All that and a bag of chips!

Thanks
Val

Whew, Val my heart goes out to you. Did you adopt this child or are you the foster parent? Your list sounds like the complete RAD list.

Do you have other children in the home or pets?

Di

P.S. They are doing some groudbreaking work on kids in the UK which Jan has been very involved with.

Thanks.

Please do not forget that he is not just a list. He is a real person, only a child, and an awful lot of people love and care about him. We have been seeking help for a very long time.

Stepmother.
A younger brother.

He has harmed animals but not in the last year or two (that I know of) so it is not included on list.

Has also hurt a child much younger than himself.

Requires constant supervision.

addendums:
- exhibits no intrinsic values (concerned primarily with self)
- clearly the perpetrator yet (strangely) the victim
- argumentative and oppositional (will hold out for days, weeks, years)
- presents as much younger than chronological years
- very charming, a gorgeous child (blonde hair, big blue eyes)
- always has something else going on (a misdeed on the flip side)

He used to do all the nonsense chatter, constant interupting type of stuff to the enth but is not so bad now.

The trouble is that despite countless interventions over the years he has not gotten any better and, in fact, has gotten worse - starting to lie, steal and do other odd stuff at school.

The REAL trouble is that there appears to be no treatment/ he evades it.

All that said, it will take a receiving line of every health care professional he/we has ever met (and there are at least a dozen), shaking our hands, telling us we have done our best, and saying it is time to give up before we do.

Appreciate your interest.

Val

Hi
Also curious if anyone has any ideas or experience with how RAD looks/exists on a continum of improvement/healing.

Specifically, what are the chances that RAD 5 years on would present as/ be described as abandonment issues?

Always thought that RAD and attachment issues had everything to do with things like abandonment and neglect.

Comments?

Val

Hi Val

Here is a link to one of many checklists, they are all very similar but I'll find as many as I can and come back to you.

http://www.reactiveattachmentdisordertreatment.com/childattachchecklist.pdf


I have loads of info on RAD/Fledgling Psychopaths and would be happy to search it out for you. I have put quite a bit into the resources section of this forum so you might like to start there.

If you would like to correspond with me personally just let me know. I am involved in a very similar situation to yourself and know how frustrating and lonely it can feel. I have also posted a lot of info about my situation so if you have the time and inclination you could go back over all my posts.

In the meantime please feel free to ask meany questions and I will answer honestly and totally objectively.

Best regards
Jan

**edited to make link clickable, Di
Note: If you click on a members name you can then select the option to view all their posts.

Hi again Val

Here is another link or a checklist.

http://members.tripod.com/~radclass/slide13.html

In answer to your last question, from my experience things get worse not better. I personally don't believe there is such a thing as "healing" although as the child gets older he becomes more adept at covert behaviour and knows exactly how to behave and what to say to get what he wants. Sorry if this sounds negative but it's how it is in my situation.

As for the abandonment issues-my partner's son rejected his mother from birth, nothing she did would settle him so my partner took over. By the time he was 6 years old my partner and his ex had divorced and she had sole custody but the child became unbearable and she told my partner she wanted rid of him so he then got sole custody.

While the child was manipulating him and getting away with it things weren't too bad but as soon as my partner excercised some control then the behaviours became all consuming. I now fully understand how his mother felt when she couldn't cope with him any more.

He is still wetting the bed and he is 14 years old. He is now away at boarding school (he is impossible to live with and resents me totally because I can see right through him and as controlling others is one of the main characteristics of RAD/psychopathy he has to work extremely hard on me).The school have complained that he not only bed wets but does it in other places too and the cleanres refuse to clean up after him. I have a feeling that the school are working up to throwing him out. That's his choice.

As for neglect-his mothet probably wasn't the best mother but what could be called neglegt by her I would argue that from a child's perspective he was spoiled. He was allowed to stay up till the early hours even on a school night, was allowed to watch anything on TV, went evereywhre she went, didn't have to go to school, was never made to wash (still doesn't!) could eat and drink whatever he wanted .....the list goes on.

I will look out those other lists for you but do let me know if there is any other info you are researching. I am in constant contact with Dr Essi Viding and have just had some recent info from her which I must post. If you ever want to get in touch with her directly you can look her up on the internet. She will definitely respond to you.

Best regards
Jan