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#6335 - 12/03/07 09:08 AM Do Psychopaths feel FEAR?
15percent Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 3
What information about FEAR is there in regards to a Psychopath.

Do they feel fear or not.

What do they do with fear if they do? How do they react or filter it?

I would like to know if they have the capacity to fear others or, is that the equivalent "reverse" of our(nonP's) Love?

Do they thrive on their feelings of fear if they feel it?

I was once told that the degree a person "hates" is the degree of "love that hurt"....just curious....

The only time I saw the Psychopath even remotely showing anything fearful is when my dogs have eyeballed him...I was amazed at the stone cold look - he froze. I had never before seen that look other than confronted with dogs, who by the way all dogs knew what he was, I have to wonder if that is why he abused the dogs cause they could see his soul and the darkness or lack of light in him, and they were warning him......they know somehow friend or foe....

Any info of Psychopath's and FEAR would be welcomed...thanks all

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#6337 - 12/03/07 06:25 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: James]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
I would venture to guess they only fear getting caught, interesting question will do some research.

But am not sure it is fear like we experience.

Welcome to the forum,

Di

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#6339 - 12/04/07 07:11 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: 15percent]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello 15percent

I found the concept of fear for a psychopath very confusing until I was told to not think of fear as we would know it but as a lack of anxiety. They are not anxious about being caught out lying, stealing or cheating.

There are some very interesting pieces of research as to how the brain reacts in situations we would find stressful and a Psychopath does not have the same reactions.

I’d love to go into a bit more detail about this so will come back to you tomorrow. I’ve just come back from a long boring business meeting and it’s after 11pm so I’m not at my best.

If there are any more questions you have please let us know and we will do all we can to help you.

Regards
Jan

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#6343 - 12/11/07 07:22 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hallo all....I'm new here and from the Netherlands so please accept that my english can be bad....

I'm sitting here...reading your words and tears are in my eyes..Not because I'm shocked by what you say...But because I finally found a place of recognition.

Fear..and do ps feel it...This topic is on my mind for the last months ...again...
For 20 years I carrfully watched my son.When he was a young boy I saw what I called sometimes, but rarely, fear.

As he grew older I never saw it again.

I think, and that's a guess, that he will be feeling something we would call fear when he loses controle...For instance when he is in a fight with somebody bigger and stronger...( he is quite small for a grown man)
I saw hem anciuos for me...his mother.I have heartfailure so a weak body, with a very strong mind. That's the reason I, m alive still
Somehow I manage to stay on top of te situation and somehow have him covinged(???) that I am never afraid of him... After he's goes again I cry , tremble, feel sick and some times have to stay in my bed for days..... But never ever I will show him my real feelings. The moment he knows this he will kill me....
So...will I call this fear for me??..(I never touch him)


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#6345 - 12/11/07 09:43 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is nice......I answered most of your questions already I think in the other topic........But no tall..And yes I wil be happy to share more.. I'm thankfull I can !!!!

You ask about other family and his father....
and also about his birth....

I was pragnand for almost 10 months with him... I got in labor on the 10th of September and he is born on the 6th of October..that's 26 days............
His father was also agressive but I don't know if he's a ps also..I divorced him when my son was almost 4 years old and father didn't want to see his son anymore....I think ,expect this to make my son's behavoir worse.
I escape my family when I was 16 years old because I was a victim of sexual abuse and neclect from baby on up. I never saw them again........ if there are ps. among them?..It wouldn'r suprise me at all!!

As you say so clearly...'We are expected to love our children...' And somewhere deep down, but I have to search deeeeppp..I still love the child I gave birth to
Do I love the person he's has become?..no way...
But I discovered also when he was much younger that the love isn't enough.... There has to be so much more to raise a child..... And at a moment, somewhere in time, your done.....
There's no pacience anymore..no loyalty..no thrust, no nothing... And I think that's the moment you have to let go ,for your own sake, and for the other children you may have, because this wil bring you to become serieusly depressed and maybe even suicidal.
I would do anyhting in my power if there would be something I can do..I said to one of my doctors;..if I have to die to make him well...I would..But even that wouldn't do anything for him, so I have to start looking after myself and do something to save me....

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#7431 - 10/06/08 01:42 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: 15percent]
Pat Offline
member

Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 30
Hi,
I can relate that the Psychopath would attack if he smells fear.

Psychopath-1
At least with one Psychopath I know that was actually in the sense of "killing" that she mentioned. That same person though, in responding to 15percent here, was also afraid of dogs. It was weird. I hadn´t read any of Dr. Hare´s books yet at that time but I could SENSE this man was trouble. Right from the very start I had alarm bells ring in the highest tones. I guess when we trust our instincts we are capable of letting our SUBCONSCIOUS work for us and notice patterns and receive those alarms that would then stimulate us to think through it CONSCIOUSLY. This guy was good looking, trying to charm me out of my disinterested corner. I could have been flattered but the flattering came when it did so not fit (no makeup, pimpels, towel on my head) it was all too obvious, so I was reserved. Later on he came back though and we went out a couple of times. But I didn´t forget the number of strange incidents and remarks. It became all too weird for me when he told me of right wing folks who like to beat up others (with a gloomy shine in his eyes), then I ran into a guy who had a cold stare just like him at his apartment and immediately had the impression that they might be drug dealers or porn makers. Then one weekend he would invite me to a "cool club" in one of those run down houses. He wouldn´t give a clear address, said I wouldn´t find it as the house had been shut down officially. Instead he asked me to meet him at a fuel station. I figured that that sounded like one big trap. NOPE! But I also realized I should not show him a single second that I might be afraid and for that reason would quit seeing him. Luckily at that time a friend of mine moved and I inherited her super cool and super huge dog. I declared to Psychopath-1 I would get one and Psychopath-1 was shocked! He tried everything to talk me (presumably unnoticed) out of it. But of course I kept the dog and chased out the guy. My impression was that it wasn´t fear of the dog himself but of the fact that those animals have instincts that could blow his cover. And I could sense that in him as well. It was very difficult though to explain that to my environment. I guess people are afraid of being called a loony when they describe s.th. like that. Funnily they rather treat such a remark like a disease and choose to not have heard it. They seem to be irritated by the fact that people like us here on the forum observe s.th. that could be deeply startling - and so they choose to rather believe that in fact it only happens on TV...

Psychopath-2
This guy I don´t know in person. I just heard of him through a close friend. She reported that he had actually killed her friend. Everybody around her was shattered. The problem: nobody had paid enough attention to him previously killing the dog of that victim a while earlier when the woman could still have been saved. From the descriptions it seemed as if he had assumed this dog could uncover him.

Best,
Pat


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#7499 - 10/29/08 05:43 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Pat]
Lena906 Offline
member

Registered: 10/29/08
Posts: 2
Hi everyone!

I have also been looking for information on psychopathy and fear. I used to believe that they can't feel any type of fear but then I had some weird experiences with my psychopath where he seemed to be afraid of dying, planes and going to jail. That's about it though, as James said in an earlier post, perhaps there are some types of fear that they can feel because they aren't related to empathy or loving others. For example, I've never seen my psychopath worry about his relatives health, he actually wishes all them dead. But he does care a lot about his own personal health :$

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#7601 - 11/18/08 06:28 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Lena906]
Haze Offline
member

Registered: 05/30/08
Posts: 11
What an interesting topic!

The Psychopath who was in my life used to show high anxiety by flushing bright red about the face and neck, and his fingers, hands and feet would almost hammer whatever they were touching to near destruction. As for what would cause the anxiety, that could be something like putting on a great public face while wanting to behave in an abusive way - almost like it being so hard to contain himself that the real him is bursting out of his skin and feet. Incidentally - taking a look under the table at the manic movement of a Psychopath's feet is quite an eye opener! How can they move their feet so fast yet keep their upper half so 'normal' looking!

I would say the Psychopath who was in my life was most fearful of losing money. Money is all he cares for and he plays some very dirty (and illegal)tricks to retain it, and gain more.

Another thing, now I think on it, is he would exude a great and awful stench when caught off-guard by some minor 'disaster' or another. Even something trivial that he wasn't expecting would make him smell terrible - a mixture of instantly old sweat and stale faeces.

Oh how fresh the air is in our Psychopath free household!

Haze. (not named after the air-freshener, honest ;o)


Edited by Haze (11/18/08 06:29 AM)

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#10204 - 10/24/10 07:27 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Haze]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi Tina, I will combine the threads I find on fear so it is easier to read what others have said in the past.

Di

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#10214 - 10/25/10 10:24 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Dianne E.]
Stephanie Offline
member

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 47
My Psychopath has dreams of satin. He knows exactly what he looks like. He'll squeel in his sleep sometimes. He says later that satin is laughing at him. Be has had a relationship with him since he was small. He said he tried praying to god and got no answer. He tried praying to satin and got everything he asked for. I've been so wrapped up in all of his bull. I can't seem to get past how he can do the things he has to me. I need to deal with in and move on but I don't know how. I just can't believe it's possible. I need to do no contact and I'm starting today again. I could use all the help i can get in finding a way to deal with the lies and the utter betrayl. Thanks confused confused
_________________________
Faith

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#10217 - 10/25/10 12:04 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Stephanie]
Dianne E. Offline

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member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi Stephanie.

Welcome to the forum, I am sure you will get the answers you seek or at a minimum get to understand the dynamics of what you are dealing with.

When he has these so called "satin" attacks while sleeping how would you rate them, shortly after the two of you going to bed? If he drinks alcohol the system processes the liquor through the system making it quite common to wake up during the night.

Does he try to wake you up so he can talk about these stories or make sure you heard them?

If he was really into Satin, from what I understand there are the evil ones you hear about on the news and ones that it is a religion of sorts (at least in their minds). I am certainly not an exper on Satan this is just what I encoounered. Years ago I had a neighbor next to my ofice and the word Satin came up and I was suspicions and on the alert due to my lack of understanding different types of Satan worship. As it turns out he was a very nice guy, just had different beliefs than I did. When we had a terrible earthquake in California he was the first to come check to see if we were okay. I only had a vague idea and not correct about what the different Satan people are. Trust me I was so concerned when I saw him walk by my window with a parakeet in a cage I had vision of some ritual getting ready to happen.

The Satan that members refer to are definitely from pure evil here on earth. Did you ever get the idea that this was a terrific reason for him to act the way he did? From my little understanding they get together in groups.

Did he ever associate with other Satan members that you know of? There are symbols that Satan people would recognize; my neighbor only explained his views and group he had that were involved in Satan activities. He explained it to me because he thought I saw and knew the symbol and be under the assumption that I would recognize the symbol which I had no idea of and think of him as being the bad type of Satan worship of sorts.

Did your Psychopath make excuses using Satan to explain away lies and inconsistent behavior? No better victim than a Psychopath.

Did he go out of his way to make sure you heard these noises during then night, like wake you up or be so loud it would be impossible for you to ignore?

When you asked him questions about things like his whereabouts, money, work etc. did Satan come into the picture telling him not to and guiding him away from doing any activates to earn money, get a job et.

How many times a day did he bring up Satan? Did he ever do it in front of family or friends?

Okay, I have quizzed you enough for now to try and understand your story so that you can be helped by other members. How did you meet him and for how long was the relationship?

I would bet the Satan buisiness would push your empathy button.

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#10218 - 10/25/10 12:49 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Stephanie]
clearblue Offline
member

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 156
Hi Stephanie,
I am supporting of you and your move away from the abuse of a Psychopath.
I hope that you stay true to yourself,this goal and get to a safe place.
If you have a safety plan now is the time to use it.
Do not warn,threaten or advise the Psychopath of your plan.
Keep your focus on your plan and be kind to yourself on your way.
You owe nothing,no explanation to a Psychopath.
Your life,safety is more important then Psychopath's needs.
It does not take much to go.
It will take everything from you to stay.
I am wishing you all the best in your plan.
Please remember you can always sit on a bus,in a hospital waiting room or
any public place while you arrange shelter.
Help is out there,you must ask.
Ask at a hospital,crisis line or city hall.
Stay in or take parking in busy public places until you reach a safe haven.
If you have a support person on the outside keep in touch with them.
You can do this.

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#10219 - 10/25/10 01:09 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Tina101]
clearblue Offline
member

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 156
Hi Tina101,
what a good info link.
Hi Stephanie.
I did not want to post this twice.
I posted in answer to both your posts about Psychopath's and satin,devil ect.

I feel that the Psychopath's devil,demon is the Psychopath saying you have limited access to him.
Many people will call on a god or savior for answers.
Some will call on the devil for answers.
His,Psychopath answers and actions are safe and justified with his devils,demons.
Its another way of saying I am a part of a powerful,off limits power.
I doubt you will try for a stake in his selfish world of host of allies.
He knows he has the upper hand in that way.
He has more power then you,a mere mortal.
He may tell you about them to get a thrill when you summons them up via him.
Of course what ever happens will be the devils fault,not his.
Believe me,if you trump his devil he will have a savior or god and condemn you for being on the devils side.
Either way its loose,loose and you will bear the punishment.
Win win for the Psychopath.
Its a fear factor they use for making use of a scapegoat.
Also who can verify the lies?
Neither.
Both however give themselves to warnings.




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#10220 - 10/25/10 02:44 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Stephanie]
clearblue Offline
member

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 156
Originally Posted By: Stephanie
Quote: My Psychopath has dreams of satin. He knows exactly what he looks like. He'll squeel in his sleep sometimes. He says later that satin is laughing at him.
reply:
Knowing what he looks like is a saying a personified power,meeting on own ground,one on one.
I believe the Psychopath is telling you a challenge(trigger point) to his power is being laughed at.
Laughing at him may bring anger,rage.

quote:
Be has had a relationship with him since he was small. He said he tried praying to god and got no answer.
Reply:
I believe this tells you he became aware of his abnormal personality or (Psychopath) status while small.
Could also be got a scapegoat.

He tried the way of his peers, social group and got no communication,choose a different path.

quote:
He tried praying to satin and got everything he asked for."
reply:
His different path paid off. He got everything he asked for.
He is enforced/rewarded on his path,actions. Negative actions because of,by the implication of satin.


quote:
I've been so wrapped up in all of his bull. I can't seem to get past how he can do the things he has to me. I need to deal with in and move on but I don't know how. I just can't believe it's possible. I need to do no contact and I'm starting today again. I could use all the help i can get in finding a way to deal with the lies and the utter betrayl. Thanks confused confused

reply:
Those feelings will need time to heal and sort and heal.
The identity,essence of you was hostage and used,abused by the Psychopath.
You have got some clarity and can not believe it's possible.
Other members and I feel this way too.
You have taken the first step towards healing.
You broke the Psychopath's hold.
It will get easier each day.

Replies about Psychopath my opinion.

(sos editors,feel free to edit)

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#10228 - 10/25/10 09:52 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: clearblue]
Stephanie Offline
member

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 47
He used to be alot more into him before we met. A little bit at first that is when he said satin turned his back on him. I was like ya hello he's a liar. Anyways he's tried to stay away from him. We live in a vary religious area. He has alot of beliefs that he is trying to get over that he got from satin. I watch my Psychopath go to different extremes. He's normally prone to go to the dark side due to his negative thinking. Pride, anger spite Ect. But I also know he want's to be good and tries to be. I've even seen him self reflect. It doesn't happen often or last very long but it has happened and it's real. He actually has admitted to alot of his issues. The typical flirting type stuff. He did admit it was his own insecurities. But he didn't stay there long. I know he want to stay away from using satin's power because he has seen to bad affects it has had on his life. But when he gets really out there he has called satin his constant companion or the comforter. It has only happened twice in our three year relationship. And he doesn't come around me much when that happens. I tell him satin has no power other that the power we give him. And we have the power to make him go away by commanding him to in the name of Jesus Christ. It works. there have been quit a few times we've been arguing or he's been on one and I can sense an evil presence. Not satin just some demon or something, But I have commanded them to leave and they do. You got to believe it will work or it won't work. I'm really pretty lucky I guess, because I'm not married to or living with my Psychopath. I found out early on in our relationship he was a Psychopath. I in a way stuck around just to see what he was capable of. If there was some way to fix him I guess. I hadn't read much at that point. I actually dated him twenty years ago. He was my first love in High school. My first kiss. I lost my virginity to him as well. But we lost contact for twenty years and when we met up again I was sure it was meant to be. I'd wondered all those years about him. Now I'm glad we didn't get married back then. I would have killed myself for sure. Not that he hasn't made me want to sometimes now. I think him being my first love is why it's so hard for me to believe he can't really feel love. He sure fakes it pretty good. But the lies I can't comprehend. I've spent the last nine months arguing with him about what the truth is. It's insane. But I keep thinking he will not want to do things that hurt me. I think I must be retarded. He really can't put himself in my shoes at all. And he seriously believes Me or anyone should believe his lies. He's tried to destroy me in every covert way he can because i know the truth, but for some reason I've not been able to walk away up until now and I'm fighting it still. I can't believe the things he's done to me. I don't know how to face it and move on. I've had a fever nearly every day for months too. I know it's from being in fright or fight mode non stop. But I want him to tell me the truth. I somehow think this will help me find closure. I don't understand how he can not care. He tries to act like it in so many ways but he really doesn't or he'd have to want to Quit hurting me. I can't grasp how someone can say they love you and see their causing you pain and not need to try to stop it. How can this be? I hope I made any sense. I just ramble but it's more to just get stuff off my chest so forgive me if it all sounds like nonsense. Thanks for listening
_________________________
Faith

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#10230 - 10/26/10 09:03 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Stephanie]
clearblue Offline
member

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 156
Hi Stephanie,
I hope you feel better posting.
I do not think you are rambling.
It is good to get your feelings out.
You are in a one sided,abusive relationship.
Can you go to a Dr. or clinic?
Please see a Dr. or clinic soon as you can.
You have a fever everyday.
You deserve and need good health.
Stress can be very hard on your health.
How did you find out your boyfriend is a Psychopath?
Did he show any signs,behaviors as a teen?
Meeting up with your first love must have been wonderful.
I could imagine how heartbreaking it must be that he is a Psychopath.
Wanting to help and give a better life,love is beautiful.
A Psychopath can not understand your feelings.
Psychopath does not have the mental capacity for feelings.
Psychopath lives his life in actions.
Psychopath's actions are negative.
Lies are part of Psychopath's interactions.
A relationship with Psychopath can never depend on trust.
Sentimental feelings for you,care and concern do not register with Psychopath.
Psychopath will use your support,resources and relationship for furthering his lies.
You may never know where all the lies are heading.
The only stability you find in life will be of your own account.
Psychopath's beliefs will always be his,for good or bad.
You must draw the stop line and grow from this experience.
Psychopath is not capable or willing to stop being a Psychopath.
Psychopath is oblivious to your boundaries.
When you point it out he tries to move it.
An example of a lifestyle that would suit a Psychopath.
Psychopath could live at a loaded bank,you would be the teller.
He will get what he wants out,with no limit.
Sure he will be back,to get more.
If it was a 24 hour bank you would see Psychopath more often.
This is how Psychopath's treat,use people.
Have you always lived near the Psychopath?
Do you have supporting family or friends on your behalf?
If you break up with Psychopath will you continue to live near him?
Please do not blame yourself for Psychopath behaviors,abuse.
Psychopath is a pre fab character inspite our best intentions.
How do you feel he is trying to destroy you,by what actions?
9 months of arguing must leave you feeling run down.
Is the argument due to lies?
Psychopath's thrive in chaos.
It keeps you preoccupied,stuck in the impact with no resolve.
Then out the door they go leaving you holding the hurt an anger.
That cycle can easily become months,years.
They will not resolve the problem fairly.
You deserve fairness in your life,kindness.
You deserve happiness.

















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#10232 - 10/26/10 03:25 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: clearblue]
angel Offline
member

Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 8
I wanted to add the fear factor of such a human and the degradation this man invoked upon me ..all his abuse..verabally accosting me .. physically abusing me enjoying the towering over me knowing I could do nothing that night fearful to run outside as afraid he may come after me as he was in a psychopathic TRUE essence of KILLER MODE..and I didnt want to attempt running out of the house in fear of his getting me out there alone in the night.

As I see it he is a sleeping rabid dog provoked, questioning his words, actions asking for truths or accountability he will step on you till you cant breathe anymore just so he doesnt have to face himself and tell the truth...or EVER admit to his wrong sickening ways..that indeed are inhumanly wrong. as he doesnt know the differance from right or wrong.. he said violence is not good... but what do you EXPECT angel after all youstyarted the argument.. and this is the results your a dumb idiot...to think nothing was going to happen.." to you..

a tru psychopath indeed as far as I am concerened.DEADLY..the sick thing is is that even behind BARS he would be genius enough to convince a con to get him out..or less jail time.. CON the system into a nicer offering on parol.. be the PERFECT BOY ROLE PRISONER MODEL...UNTIL HE DID IT AGAIN.... I asked him about thIS women he had sex with he said he had been seeing her for some time and she was really in love with him..perfect for a narcissist.. I must say.. YETINTRESTINLY HE SAID IT WAS A HORRIBLE EXPEREINCE... meaning what ?? to me it states.. maybe he also degraded her in a rape like sense.. I wont know never do I wont to know what or how he treated her on his quest to punish me NIGHT...

he in the midst of hurting ..me would say "am not going to give you the satisfaction of PANDERING to your needs and be the down trodden little man you wont me to be and say am soo sorry to you you wont your men to be weak pathetic little men.. bowing down to your all whims in life.. " you are control freak.. not me and am not giving you the responce you wont cause this is your pain and this is what you deserve you started this its your fault so now you pay.." tough SHT#### for the fist time in your life am going to be the one to make you pay so shut up and sit down and have a good think about your mental illness .your a disgusting parasite ..." your a nutter not me... you a retard.. you have learning problems your sick.. angel you need a team..all this
meanwhile am bleeding out of my mouth as he is shouting these words my way, and the room is spinning..
he cant feel so he has to say this to me that he wont pander to my needs.. as he beats me up he shifts the idea.. making it my fault that am needing to control him by getting a responce from him.. the fatcs are he has no internal stop button.. he cant say yeah am wrong becasue a narccisit /psychopath never faulters... to others.. desires.. its to the death they will deny all costs all actions.. its like they were not even present.. HE

also he pointed out to me a tiny bruise he had a wealt on his arm from me defending myslef he said LOOK WHAT YOU HAVE DONE TO "ME..YOU HURT ME " and

he checked his arms like he was KING and saying I hurt his skin it hurts angel you hurt me..physically. he said to me "YOUR less than a worm ,less than a dog.. and spat in my face... and shoved me once more to the floor.grabbing by the throat and squeezing he then. sat down and watched his film calmly.. no problems.. with a smile.and cool posture... realxed body language.. I am sure his pulse didnt even budge he / SMIRKd.

did he think punching me in the back of the head where my teeth nearly get knocked out smashing my head on the ground , split lips , bleeding..being choked.. suffocated on the floor hit over and over again... was COOL ? as he is concerned about a tiny welt on his arm!!! truley he tried to attack me for him having a welt ONE WELT ON HIS ARM.. AS i WAS NEAR DEAD ALMOST .. under his attacks.. what happens to people doing this there personality splits they compartmentalise..??? is this typical PSYCHOPATH traits or do all humans if pushed do this???? but pushed I never pushed him I asked a simple calm question..... to find myself almost knocked unconsiouse...

interesting the part he talks about "giving me the responce I wont ...ITS CALLED REMORSE.. I could have been stabbed that nite with a knife out of my back and he would say.. "stop exageratting your pain " get over it...

thats what he said as well all nite get over it little girl your not hurt.. take it on the chin btc***** swearing at me..

cathartic to get this out am suffering shock PTSD for sure.. the signs were there but this was a dragon brewing.. am gald to be able to talk about it am afraid to go to the police its all very new..am afraid he will come after me or even get someof his friends to come ater me..if he has any?? I dont know.. but he is soo smart in knieving I wouldnt put it past him to do anything . ??

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#10247 - 10/27/10 12:13 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: angel]
Stephanie Offline
member

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 47
wow i so need to read this. I don't know how but my Psychopath managed to suck me back in briefly. He out of the blue left a message that he'd got me a doctor appointment and was going to pay for it. And somehow before i knew it I was completely brainwashed and I'd completely forgotten the hell I've been trough trying to get the truth out of him. It's risking your life to get an honest explanation. i do need to go to the doctor although I know it's stress. I can't handle being lied to. But that's not until Monday. I don't have the money to do it but he still hasn't told me the truth out off his mouth and I'd almost rather die that than play along in his land of make believe any more. Oh and the other thing I realized is how he can make real major changes and have great insight into himself and me all of the sudden as soon as I really end it for good. So That means he cold have this whole time. He was choosing to be a jerk. OK Thanks for your post. I can't stand to even think about him lying to me one more time. I don't need a doctor i just need to get rid of the thing making me sick. How could I not have a fever from being fed bull$~ all day and living in fear of what he's really up to now. I feel refreshed and renewd and I'm starting again. Day one no contact!
_________________________
Faith

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#10248 - 10/27/10 02:20 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Stephanie]
Stephanie Offline
member

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 47
I'll tell a little more of my story. We have been in a relationship for almost three years. I found out he was a psychopath after we'd been together about six months. I found out he'd been cheating on me with his ex wife and lying to both of our faces daily for over a month, No remorse what so ever. I found the information on phycho's and he didn't disagree. In fact he thought it was pretty cool how women were so drawn to him. Since then he has begged me to say i will marry him. i told him if he could prove he could be faithful and rebuild trust. All he's done is sneak around behind my back. Mainly cyber sex because he's to lazy and to big of a sex addict to get enough sex offline. He needs constant attention. I won't commit to be with him although we have been intimate from time to time and we see each other every day. So i do have alot of feelings for him. I've become totally isolated. It still really hurts and blows my mind that he could even think sexual thoughts about other women when he's been with me and how can he say i love you non stop and how bad he want's to marry me and screw around with other women behind my back. I tell him I never told him he had to want to be with me so he doesn't need to lie. He can date whoever he'd like. It makes him so mad. He insists on creating a situation to where he can cheat on me. If he still wants to mess around with other women or look at porn (which is cheating to me) Why can't he just be friends and not hurt me by betraying my trust. Because he's a Psychopath and he seriously expects everyone to believe his lies. He thinks faking every aspect of who he is to be my Mr. Perfect is love. And he lies to me about everything he does that hurts me because he cares enough to not want to hurt me by telling me the truth. Being in this proving ground place in our relationship He's gone out of his way to try to make me out to look like the cheater or crazy or who knows what else so he doesn't look bad when anyone asks why we're not making a deeper commitment. I think he's making a bigger fool of himself by doing it. I was a little worried at first but he just ends up talking way to much. people have pretty much figured out he's full of it. I'm glad I'm at a point in my life where I don't care what anyone thinks about me. i know who i am. I'm more concerned with getting myself back right now. Being cheated on is so damaging. How could he be so heartless. It really takes so much more away from me than I ever could have imagined. That's the part i can't seem to recover from or know how to process. I can say I don't care but I really do. I just seem to keep reopening the same wound. I take it very personal, and I'm really just shocked someone could lie to my face like that for long periods of time, knowing the pain their causing and not want to stop it? I haven't talked to anyone about it. It's to humiliating. I just keep blocking it out. Unsure how to get to a place of acceptance and forgiveness so I so I don't let this ruin how i respond in any other relationships. If I ever dare have any again? I feel that lies are the greatest form of abuse by far. How does one recover from being lied to like that?
_________________________
Faith

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#10249 - 10/27/10 06:54 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Stephanie]
clearblue Offline
member

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 156
Hi Stephanie,
it will take time and courage to heal from lies and cheating.
You can do it.
Its better to spend time healing then time being hurt.
You may never get to the truth with a Psychopath.
Psychopath does not use truths to gain power.
Psychopath uses deceit.
Learning of more deceit does not help victims discover the truth.
It keeps you from healing,keeps you a victim.
Moving from a victim to a survivor will require you to let go of the deceit.
You will not have truth to hold on to for your next move.
It will be yourself,safety and support with family,counseling,forums or similar.
Psychopath's do not let anyone walk away happy and whole.
Your Dr. appointment will be good because Psychopath's are so busy having a sex life with whom ever,where ever
they can easily get and transfer sexually transmitted diseases.
It is always a good idea to be checked after having any sexual relationship or contact with a Psychopath.
The lies and stress you have endured are Psychopath's life style.
If you were to marry this Psychopath you would no doubt
be giving him the power and security,approval to continue his life style,increasing his power to use,hurt and abuse you.
If a person wants to marry it is not for forgiving them or increasing their power.
Psychopath is always expecting a reward for his harmful actions.
Psychopath would be amused and have an ego boost to learn he is a special,powerful woman magnet for being a Psychopath.
A normal thinking guy would be horrified to be thought of as a Psychopath.
You deserve a good,caring person who cares about you, your feelings,sharing those feelings.
Psychopath's only care is how he can destroy your feelings,justify his actions and still have a person,place or resource
to satisfy his self interests.
Does he get time alone for porn or with you there?
Has he asked or tried to get you involved in porn?
Psychopath's are very self absorbed with porn.
He may try to degrade you to submission.
He will insult you for submission.
If you become a threat to his style you place yourself in danger.
If one of his consorts should upset him he will victimize you,blame you for his lack.
When people do not cater to Psychopath's wants Psychopath becomes hostile,moody an abusive.
He is a master of verbal,mental and physical abuse.
He must be in control of you.
Then Psychopath will blame you for his abuse of you.
The double blow fashion is literally Psychopath's faster approach at bringing you down.
Double hits bring faster submission of victims.

You are moving on away from Psychopath to healing,health.
You can do this!
You opened the door to your new,good life.
You deserve it, you were meant for it.







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#10250 - 10/27/10 10:44 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: clearblue]
Stephanie Offline
member

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 47
He does want to keep me stuck in this place with his lies.I know the truth i just wanted to hear it from him. wishful thinking it would break his psychopathic ways I guess. It is so nice to hear the way he really is. I know these things yet it is so hard to believe sometimes. He is usually so nice it fools everyone including myself. He is always trying to destroy me in some covert way though. Ive come to be able to pick up on his little hidden insults when he speaks, or the truths he slips in just to ad some adventure and slip the truth past you without you picking up on it.He is pure evil!

I won't cater to him. He is not allowed to bring his porn into my home. He's not really allowed to look at porn. I told him i won't marry him until that habit is broken and been that way for a while. But he just lies. Then tries to blame me if he gets caught or get my sympathy pretending like he feels so bad and tries so hard not to slip up. He's a bum that's about all he must do because he doesn't get much else done. I hate porn though. it will make me throw up if i see it. some gag reflex i must have gotten from having to look at it when i was three years old. by my "now I know" sick psychopathic sex addict step father. Oh yes this whole experience has brought up many painful things from my past. My Psychopath has so tried to use these to his advantage. I got rid of my step dad at age ten thinking I would be buried alive for it. I can get rid of him.It was rather nice when I did realize I'm not a child anymore and I don't have to put up with that stuff. I couldn't do that at three. I've always been strait up front with any men who want to date me. It's me or the porn. It's there choice. i won't tell anyone what they have to do and I just ask the same respect. I was so mad when I found out my Psychopath had been lying about the porn the whole time. He knew how important that was to me. Then He had me try to help him quit. that was a manipulation nightmare that happened last Christmas. The last time I came to this site.I was pretty shell shocked then and haven't ever fully given into him like that again since, but i hadn't been able to walk away yet either. well he makes that very hard to do. Not impossible though. I hope? He's not physically abusive so I'm not really afraid of that. I'm more afraid he'll keep hurting my feelings or try to ruin my reputation. I call him a wah wah tattle tale and to quit gossiping. he's the biggest girl I've ever met. I'm supprised he hasn't killed me. i can't help but shove his truth in his face sometimes. Although i have to admit I'm getting my but kicked in this fight. i can only act tough and then go cry. he feels nothing.

Thank you so much for your post. There seems to always be just what i need to hear when I come check. Just gettin out of my own mind and some validation is huge1 so thanks again for all your support.
_________________________
Faith

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#10251 - 10/28/10 06:27 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Stephanie]
clearblue Offline
member

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 156
Hi Stephanie,
what you are describing is the very essence of being in a Psychopath relationship.
They find the situations in life that have hurt your pride.
Opportunistic to a fault,opening old hurts an adding more hurt to them.

Psychopath's lack empathy for their fellow man/woman.
Psychopath's are not capable of empathy.
They fool us,make us believe they have empathy.
We only find out after they expose our hurts.

Psychopath's do not go after personal reputations.
Usually not confronting injustice of people we have dealt with.
They are not defenders of us.
Psychopath's will build more control over us with fear factors of who they could tell are secrets to.
Psychopath would rather have all of our imagined enemies on their side then against them.
Psychopath will not dispel the myths of our insecurities,they exploit them instead.
I think they realize bringing up a touchy subject with new people may cause motives to be questioned.
It's a risk Psychopath will not take.

My X Psychopath moved 20 minutes from me after we broke up.
We lived for years in the same community and people did not know he knew me.
He played off not knowing me so well.
He did not talk directly to people I knew.
When he met someone who knew me, he did not tell them he knew me.
He never wanted to say he was my X because.....
When someone did see me stop to pick up the kids from his house he told them I was his
babysitter.
He actually told people he had his kids with a surrogate mother.
The lies a Psychopath tells are strange,self serving.
Your reputation is not a risk in your truths.
You could be part of a lie.
No one will know a Psychopath is seeing you,stalking you or any other Psychopath action.
Psychopath would rather get away with cheating,lying then confront anyone.

How did you get rid of your step parent?
I also had a Psychopath parent.
I feel for you having the childhood experiences of a Psychopath.
I feel it set my course in life for many more Psychopath experiences,relationships.
I feel this way because most people I know were not raised in a Psychopath home.
They have not had Psychopath relationships.
The people I have met that grew up with Psychopath's have Psychopath relationships.
I feel this is due to being desensitized to a Psychopath's nature from exposure.
Even though we may be re victimized or further victimized.
When I knew the truth no one supported my truth.
I learned to live with the lies,it continued that pattern into my adult years.

It was very hard to move beyond my old self.
It was a huge identity crisis.
Not because I liked being a victim.
I thought I could conquer the Psychopath things.
Help my X out of being a Psychopath.
Save him from himself,save me at the same time.
I envisioned us healed,bonded,sharing the bond.
It never became a reality.
I could not understand why he was determined to lie to me.
Compromise my ideals for lies.
Hurt my pride with lies.
Get caught in lies and not change.
He could admit to so many things.
I thought it was because he wanted to be accepted,loved.
A big wake up call for me was realizing a Psychopath is oblivious to himself.
He is guiltless,no conscience for his actions.
He is not the slightest bit disturbed by his own lies.
He lives on the surface of himself.
He can discover his childhood hurts.
He does not like anyone more or less for them.
Psychopath is stuck in negative daily patterns.

Do you feel you have pushed your Psychopath, his buttons for hoping for reaction,healing?
Do you feel it has placed you in more danger of his moods,actions?
Where does he live now?

I understand how hurt you feel.
It really sux to feel like being nobody deserving of truth,integrity.
You need and deserve to feel good, special.
You are special,there is only one you.
Be kind to yourself today.

Good for you not allowing porn addictions into your home.
Its a great boundary you have established.

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#10254 - 10/30/10 03:46 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: clearblue]
Stephanie Offline
member

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 47
i can't believe i have rationalized his abuse for so long. Sometimes i stop to think of how it would be if he really cared about me. Everything would be so different. i don't know how I convinced myself he must care non the less. He manipulates me into having compassion for him. Then i Quit caring for me and my needs. Then i have all this resentment for myself for letting someone treat me that way. Has anyone felt that forgiving yourself is part of this process?

I'm safe in my home. I have kick prof doors and boards in all my windows so they can't be slid open. He only lives about ten minutes from me. But I just need to stick to it until he gives up. It's getting sucked back into his traps and forgetting how he tries to hurt me. wanting to see the good in people has been my biggest downfall in this situation. I need to keep coming to this site to remind me of what he really is. It's hard for me to believe someone could be so heartless. But it's time I face the truth and do something about it. I don't want to give him any more of me and my life.
_________________________
Faith

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#10255 - 10/30/10 07:54 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Stephanie]
clearblue Offline
member

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 156
Hi Stephanie,
introspection and "what ifs" can make for a time of self resentment.
Being hard on your self,finding fault.
No one can blame.
Psychopathy is what it is.
You did not make it so.
Its okay to have hope.
Hope will bring answers for psychopathy someday.
Today is not that day.
It does not change how you felt.
It only stands to guide you.
Being at this crossroads is important.
You are at the place where real change begins.
This coping tip may help.
Write each self perceived mistake down and forgive yourself for each.
Then throw them away,flush them,shred them.
Just get rid of them totally.
Once they are gone do not dwell on the past.
You have forgiven yourself.
It is only within your power to do so.
No one can judge our burdens,hurts.
No one can give us the external pass to let go of things.
We,you have grown in knowledge.
Knowledge is your,our strength.
Growing past a victim stage is emotional.
You are changing.
Be extra patient and kind with your new self.
Learning to live life beyond our past takes time.
Give yourself all the time in the world.
Only you know what is right for you.
Only you know what kind of life you will live.
If you live in your right way your choices will be good feeling.
Living good feelings an actions and honest with yourself adds to your strength.
You are not alone in how you feel.
The "if I did not" and "what ifs" hold us back from growth.
You are growing as the most wonderful you.
Tend to yourself,foster your growth in your life.
You will have a healthy garden of wisdom to share.
Do not wither for others.
You can do this.
One day at a time you can.
You are special.
Your gifts are special.
Celebrate each good moment.
Every good moment is new,precious.
Every moment is yours.
















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#10257 - 11/02/10 12:48 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: clearblue]
Stephanie Offline
member

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 47
I'm angry at myself for allowing him to treat me so bad for so long. But He really didn't treat me that bad besides his lies. it doesn't really get much worse than lies though. He's doing everything he can to get me to keep being his friend. I miss him. I have no idea why. Or why I love him. I'm fighting rationalizing in my head being able to deal with some of his crap. They are rather predictable. At least mine is. I can pretty much count on him doing the exact opposite of what he says. Lol Ok I don't know what I was thinking. It is the strangest thing though. I don't want to keep him but I can't seem to let him go. I don't know how I'm going to feel when he stops trying to get me back. I don't know if it is because he was my first love and who I lost my virginity too that makes it so hard to get over him or what. I just have no life, no friends and I'm going to be forty in two weeks. I don't want to be alone. I'd rather be alone than with someone who can't love. It will just take a little getting used to i guess. I'm so afraid that everyone left out there who is single is a psychopath or a porn addict. I'm just a little discouraged tonight. I know I've got to stick to this though. They never change.
_________________________
Faith

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#10258 - 11/02/10 03:47 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Stephanie]
clearblue Offline
member

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 156
Hi Stephanie,
I can understand what you are saying and how you are feeling.
It is a gamble for your situation.
Do we walk away with something in our hearts or throw the dice.
Really only you can answer that for yourself.
You need to decide where your imaginary lines will be drawn.
Questions to ask yourself would be "how low will you go" and
"what heights can I/we achieve"
It will require much inner strength and sacrifice.
You must endeavor to know yourself well.
You will need to be your own best friend and protector.
Your Psychopath person will fill some of the roles,some of the time.
In between his semblance of a relationship participant he will falter.
You already know this.
You have carried the hurt,happiness and changed from it.
No one likes to be hurting or alone.
Happiness is the natural way of the heart,mind.
I believe in an old truth "the only one thing all of humanity shares is loneliness".
I understand where your heart is.
If you feel that winning is worthy of you, no matter the cost- you have won.
If we never fail to fail and only play to win how much better are we?
Life experiences are what shape our souls and destiny.
You/we never take shape alone.
I appreciate your ideas about your relationship.
I think its wonderful how you can share how your relationship with a Psychopath affects you,
and how you feel about the Psychopath and why.
Life asks us to examine and choose are steps,most people will not intentionally step
on a person to get to where they are going.
One would not walk off a cliff if a warning sign said cliff ahead.
So we need to apply our mental stops, breaks,process the signs.
If you do not have the signs, who is anyone to tell you they are here or there or that they exist.
They can only tell you what they or others have seen or done or experienced.
Sometimes learning is not of that second,third person nature.
When we must learn in our own terms,we simply must.
You can always change your mind,change your life.
As long as you are able,you can.
If your self worth hinges on the actions of others,Psychopath or not it will make
your life subject to many good and bad moods, experiences.
There is a fine line between help and hinder.
Victims will tell you where they have found the line to be.
Some people are able to have larger portions of bad experiences.
Some people settle for less good experience.
Other people are motivated to the most good,most bad.
Finding your own balance is what will work for you.
The general life guides are general.

It is only what we can share and the hope it is offered in that
may be helpful.
I hope you find self,acceptance,strength and happiness.
I hope you have a joyous birthday.
I hope that even though you feel alone and unsure you may
know I care.
I hope you know we walk this road together.
I hope we can continue to share,change support each other.
I hope you know what ever decision you make it will not change how I feel,
as long as you are safe.

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#10300 - 11/14/10 01:31 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: clearblue]
Stephanie Offline
member

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 47
I like to try to convince myself that I got some things i must have needed in my life to go through this. And I believe that i did, but at what price is the question. I have always had this fear of someone lying to me about porn due to what i seen with my step dad growing up. I've spent the last ten years trying to learn how to believe in love and i've done that. Just at the point in my life I was totally trusting and had let go of all my fears and insecurities of never being loved. of being replaced by some irresistable whore. I had peace and security with in myself and back into my life came the love of my life or so I'd thought for twenty years. And go figure i ended up being replaced by that irresistable whore.

It's like I've been fighting to prove i was worth more. But in doing so i somehow made myself become less important than that. I didn't really loose my belief in love again, But I had all my boundries crossed. Such important boundries to me. I've been completely powerless. Because of lies. He's the only person I would have ever even considered helping work through that porn issue. He lied to me the whole time. But maybe i needed him to push me into that uncomfortable zone. He did give me alot of insight into it's affects. But i had no idea of the lies of love and betrayl that was possible.

Being forced to live through my worst fear sucked. But I'm grateful because I fought so hard to learn to believe in love because i wanted it so badly. I didn't realize that even though I'd got over my fear or so i thought. It was still deep inside me. I don't know if it's possible but I believe that i was somehow completely blinded by that fear. Living through this changed that. I can now see. it's a sad loss of innocence in a way, but I now look at what I was up against without it. I was prey and would have ended up with exactly what i did not want. I could have been so lied to and i was. But going through that with my first love first everything and (as far as a psychopath can go) in being a life long friend. He has been that and he has pressed me to deal with this and i needed it. I needed to be able to do it in this somewhat "safe" environment. Yes it's scary with all the plots to destroy me for wanting to get away and all the other things he's done to leave me with post traumatic stress. He still has been and probably will be until I find another. The only man I've ever really trusted.

I can't believe a word he says but I do know if I was ever in a horrible pinch he is the one i know would help me get out. I have so many oxy morons with this situation. I know i can't be with him because he lies and he cheats and he's always trying to control and manipulate me me instead of just ask me. He refuses to be normal to do what is needed to make a relationship work. Why? It seems so simple to remedy so many things. I'm trying to accept that he will never be able to grasp it. Trying to not take it to personal by accepting he's a psychopath. trying to accept being cheated on. I've been made aware that I'm holding onto that pain. pretending that it didn't affect me. How does one let deal with being cheated on? Let alone get rid of that pain? I can't keep waiting around for him to see that I'm worth it or make somehow make it all go away. Do I really need to go no contact.

We've been through so many major life experiences. I feel like he has always been a part of me. How can i let that go? It's getting harder and harder to hang on to the belief that we can stay friends. But even harder to make myself believe that he can't truly ever really care about me. That's the part i keep trying to hand on to. Do you believe it's possible for a psychopath to be a friend or want to want to be good? Is healing possible if you don't cut off all contact? I Can't understand how they can not care if their hurting someone they claim to love.

Back to this subjects Do psychopaths feel fear. It may not outwardly look like it. But I know my psychopath is scared to death to feel vulnerable. Scared to death to feel alot of things. I think they are scared to death of being hurt or rejected. Maybe it's for being found out of who they really are. It seems to me they are consumed by fear to the point they won't allow themselves to feel They are to afraid to look in the mirror.


Thanks Clear blue for all of your support,
You have helped me a lot! And I've been following your posts, and I can see you have been helping
many others as well. To have your feelings validated for a change. helps to put everything in
prospective. Your words are so soothing. Your prof that their are still angels among us. I just
wanted to let you know how truly grateful i am for your kindness blush

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#10306 - 11/15/10 09:52 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Stephanie]
clearblue Offline
member

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 156
Hi Stephanie,
I am so happy to know we share in good thoughts and words.
Your observations are very good.
Psychopath's do experience an aspect of fear.
I feel it is dread.
Many Psychopath's have explained dread as being a strong antisocial factor in their lives.
Dread is an aspect or type of fear.
With Psychopath's the dread enforces their win/win perspective.
It is a motivator for them.
Most of us would apply dread in our lives to making changes to avoid dread.
Psychopath's apply it enforcing their anti-social behaviors,status.
It increases their ability to victimize.
A Psychopath has to be first,last.(win/win)
Psychopath dreads not being first,last.
Psychopath's actions always lend to a Psychopath keeping this impending dread in check.
They will become inconsolable if they must face dread.
If they act out it is usually in the extreme.
Violence,lies,destruction and all manner of negative actions.
Never corner a Psychopath.
If a Psychopath is forced to face dread they will self destruct,like a time bomb.
They will not give thought to who is affected by their actions.

When it comes to cheating,lies sometimes it helps to review our past.
What is it about cheating we feel keeps us emotionally victimized.
What about ourselves have we sat aside,protected,neglected.
Sometimes in review we discover a hidden element of our past where the first victim response was felt.
If we experienced the cheating of parents as a child witness and withheld truth being discovered or
confronted, a situation of cheating as an adult makes us feel like the helpless child again.
We wanted a more perfected life.
We hoped to gain control and create it in our own adult life.
We thought we did and lost are gain through a cheating spouse.
We are still a victim,we had high hopes.
We were better then,deserving of better,aspiring to better.
We valued the innocence of a clean mind,body,spirit,soul.
A cheater is taking the innocence away.
Reminding us of how we did not have a perfect mind,body or childhood.
A victim against ourselves already, we have no place for the conquests of others,at are expense.
Cheaters make us feel creepy,dirty and used.
We placed demands on ourselves that said "no cheating/cheaters"allowed.
We built a door that said "no",do not even go there.
Then someone opens that door.
Our own self punishment for feelings of boundary intrusion starts a cycle of self abuse.
We look to the mirror for answers.
We harass and punish our own ego and ask ourselves "why"we let it happen.
Truth is ourselves did not "let"it happen.
It alls go back to our child/helpless feelings.
We were powerless as children,now we are powerless as adults.
A Psychopath thrives on power.
A Psychopath may use your feelings,never return them.
A Psychopath does not understand feelings.
Psychopath's look to people as resources.
If you have an enormous amount of resources a Psychopath will hang around.
When your supply runs low a Psychopath will look for another resource.
When we no longer trust ourselves with our self needs we let someone else try.
When they fail we are not happy.
When we fail,they fail we punish ourselves.
We must first forgive ourself.
We are powerless to abuse from self or others until we forgive our self.
Give yourself the gift of purity.
You are pure in heart and mind.
Strength is within your heart and mind.
When you let your heart and mind work together you are strong.
When one or the other rules our life actions we are weak.
We are responsible for our own self.
Others are not capable of our true self care.
Only we know our true self.
Give yourself permission to grow,mend your inner child.
A child learned to feel from the heart then to think from the mind.
Growing up just means you can use the heart and mind together.
You are never aged in abuse in heart and mind.
You are always innocent,like a child.
We as adults say children are resilient.
A child never told that to an adult.
Adults know we are like children and we are resilient.
We our resilient,able to heal.
Like children,but grown in our ability to benefit ourself from heart and mind.
When heart and mind work together it is for your own benefits good,health,happiness.
When we have those we share them.
Sharing is mutual and does not have or make victims.
Asking ourselves about friendships,relationships ask
how will I feel. Will I feel,good,happy,healthy.
This may help you with Psychopath's or anyone in life.


If your heart says no,your mind may try it.
If your mind says no,your heart may try it.

If both say no...we never would.
If both say yes,do it.

I hope hope you have wonderful days.
Gift yourself often,you are special,caring and kind.
You are special today,everyday.












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#12499 - 12/29/11 07:35 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: clearblue]
Stephanie Offline
member

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 47
Hi clearblue. I hope your still around. I know you probably know much more about what i'm going through than I'm able to see right now. I found out it was alot more than porn my psycho Psychopath was cheating on me with. He had personal ads on places like adult friend finder and was cheating on me the whole time online and off. I don't know why I have this obsessive need to make him tell me the truth. he's let me know in lots of little ways but in not able to just tell me the truth. I keep trying to make him. You are so right they to destruct, and oh boy destroy you for it. I don't know how or what I need to do to come to terms with my childhood abuse. The fact that he's lying to me makes me feel like I'll be trapped as this fool forever. I found out the truth though but he still won't admit it. This all makes me wonder why I have put up with this and if I don't feel that I deserve anything better. Why did I draw this sort of man into my life. And many other men much like him. Do I believe what I was told as a child? That no one would ever love me?

I don't want to be treated this way. I want to be loved and I have a huge capacity to love. I don't fear the porn cheating thing like I used to. I'm still alive and it doesn't pack the same punch that it used to. I seem to always get myself onto situations where I'm living my worst fears in reality. It does work pretty good though. I now have nothing left to fear. I want to bring good things into my life now. I don't want the affects from this psychopath to take any more from me. I'm getting very old and I don't want to be alone forever. I need to start to date at some point.

Well the good point is. I now know exactly what I want in my true love. I know what I don't want and I can now see the difference. Now if only i can believe that it is possible for me to be loved. I thought I'd got there but I must not have. If you have any idea's, I would really be grateful. I love reading your post. i feel like you know me somehow.


I hope you are doing well. I know it's been quite some time. It makes me sick to look back over my post, and see the years fly by and still I'm stuck here. Not wanting to or knowing how to grow up. Hope to hear to from you soon
_________________________
Faith

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#12591 - 01/26/12 02:47 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: 15percent]
Goran Offline
member

Registered: 01/25/12
Posts: 7
Originally Posted By: 15percent
What information about FEAR is there in regards to a Psychopath.

Do they feel fear or not.

What do they do with fear if they do? How do they react or filter it?

I would like to know if they have the capacity to fear others or, is that the equivalent "reverse" of our(nonP's) Love?


Not sure why I am answering this post as the first thing; maybe because I was interested in this question first when confronting the psycho husband of a friends sister. Yes, they do feel fear. Just like all the other bulls**t they make you believe, they will first and foremost try to make you believe that they fear nothing - it is not true, don't believe it.

Yes, they certainly can fear others. If they tell you they are ex-navy seal or some such bs, it is the prime example of them trying to avoid confrontation through intimidation. This guy did it early on to make himself sound more dangerous and ward off from the rest of the family. They fear everything the rest of us fear, maybe even more so, because they know that the behavior they exhibit is only defensible in the world of illusions - don't let them go to that world and they will break down.

About whether that is the equivalent of love is an amusing question. I don't think so. Although if it is, I know a guy that is positively in love with me wink

Quote:

Do they thrive on their feelings of fear if they feel it?


No, they run from it in two different ways: retreat or escalate. If you can imagine a person with no personality trying to create a narrative that would make himself believe he exists as a viable human being, as long as the narrative is of a strong man, he will stay. When the narrative comes dangerously close to exposing the little vicious scared weakling b***h inside, he will either retract and try to recreate himself elsewhere, or escalate to continue the narrative if he believes he can win. Either way, fear is a very stressful situation for him, even though he may seem as if he's just fine.

Quote:

I was once told that the degree a person "hates" is the degree of "love that hurt"....just curious....


Bulls**t. If he loves someone, it's not the victim of his psychopathy. He doesn't hate his victim either, he simply has no respect for the victim and if the victim has an illusion that he does love her, he will see it right away, despise her for it and hurt her even more. Why he does this is very simple: he cannot maintain a narrative of a personality successfully with someone he has already broken to the degree that she thinks he loves her, even as he tortures her and he is frustrated by it. If one can make her think anything, that is not a solid base for his newly imagined personality.

Quote:

The only time I saw the Psychopath even remotely showing anything fearful is when my dogs have eyeballed him...I was amazed at the stone cold look - he froze. I had never before seen that look other than confronted with dogs, who by the way all dogs knew what he was, I have to wonder if that is why he abused the dogs cause they could see his soul and the darkness or lack of light in him, and they were warning him......they know somehow friend or foe....


What dogs know or don't know doesn't matter. It's the fact that he doesn't know whether he can win in the situation, simply because dogs are often loyal to their master and he's not a dog whisperer. If a human acts like a dog (loyal to the victim, ready to go all the way without a shadow of doubt and unafraid), he will freeze, then leave - there is nothing scarier to him than people who support the victim and who will not buy even the smallest amount of his bulls**t. This is a defeat for him and that doesn't fit into his narrative, so he will try to re-tell the story. Rarely he will try to re-tell the story with deeds, most of the time just with words, especially if the confrontation can be interpreted as a stand-off.

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#12592 - 01/26/12 03:36 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Stephanie]
Goran Offline
member

Registered: 01/25/12
Posts: 7
Originally Posted By: Stephanie

Back to this subjects Do psychopaths feel fear. It may not outwardly look like it. But I know my Psychopath is scared to death to feel vulnerable. Scared to death to feel alot of things. I think they are scared to death of being hurt or rejected. Maybe it's for being found out of who they really are. It seems to me they are consumed by fear to the point they won't allow themselves to feel They are to afraid to look in the mirror.


Exactly. I actually believe that for many of them psychopathic behavior is just a by-product of being worn down and torn to shreds by a constant struggle to maintain a narrative about themselves that is nowhere near true. This is why I actually think they are treatable, but not in any conventional or legal way.

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#12593 - 01/26/12 10:59 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Goran]
daddysproblem Offline
member

Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 99
Hello,

bran scan studies show that the psychopath does not feel fear. the most shocking stat that i saw was even when being given a life sentence they responded nonchalantly. check out wiki on this.

but that is the crux of the matter, they don't feel. that's why they are so impenetrable. i'm sure they get frustrated... when they don't get what they want, or there is some satisfaction when they do.... i've actually (wow, i hate all these hindsight discoveries) never seen my dad truly gleeful - joyful.. never seen him burst into a laughter or smiles.. it's always a disconnected look. so disturbing. so screwed up to grow up with this crap. sometime i just think what is it like in there, in his mind..he feel so superior to others and i'm sure this is the base of that.. that he sees other people as being uber emotional.. controlled by their emotions.. as he is not.. so - there you have it... totally superior..he blames all of his kids emotionalism on my mom - poor girl.. she didn't have a chance.

the worst fng part is... he can't be any different.. it's so troublesome to see anyone on here thinking they can be fixed. it's like turning a pumpkin into a car... they do not possess the qualities that make humans human.. it's the social and empathy qualities.. in any study of animals to human comparison.. most often those are the qualities they use to consider an animal more human. and these Psychopaths aren't human.

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#12594 - 01/26/12 12:05 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: daddysproblem]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
To me it is a simple equation, no conscience, no fear. I don't think they even think of consequences. I have sat in on a couple of trials here, it is fascinating to watch them.

One of the non socialized ones I watched actually took the stand and admitted to 2 of the stab wounds when there were multiple (he was caught at the scene, caught on camera buying the knives and all the evidence was clearly stacked against him) and actually said the it was the fault of the victim, that is how screwed up their logic is. NO normal person would taken the stand and state such an admission in front of the jury. Cool as a cucumber, I watched him like a hawk and saw no emotion even when he was sentenced, he actually was very relaxed acting. It was a small courtroom and I was sitting in the front row on the prosecution side (the victims relatives were sitting a couple of rows back), he actually started ducking when I was watching him and he saw me watching him. Didn't take the jury long to come back with a guilty charge.

They mimic behavior that is why you see them when they get caught actually laughing, I am sure all of you have seen pics of Casey Anthony, she did a lot of chuckling and laughing.

They see themselves as the victims when they do get caught. It is an interesting equation, they victimize kind, loving people and they actually see themselves as the ones who were wronged.

I don't believe for a second they feel fear. They may act like they do to worm their way back in but they lack the brain wiring to feel anything for anyone but themselves and saving their own skin.

You nailed it daddysproblem, totally superior, that sums it up. Nothing is their fault or ever will be, to me that sums up their no fear of their actions.

Di

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#12595 - 01/26/12 12:07 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: daddysproblem]
Goran Offline
member

Registered: 01/25/12
Posts: 7
Originally Posted By: daddysproblem
Hello,

bran scan studies show that the psychopath does not feel fear. the most shocking stat that i saw was even when being given a life sentence they responded nonchalantly. check out wiki on this.


Not sure which disorder the man you mention here has, but I can see a psychopath taking all kinds of things nonchalantly, especially if it contributes to his illusion of a personality of a strong individual. To us it sounds insane, but his ego is so fragile, that he is ready to tolerate much more than a life sentence, if it will keep the ego intact.

Quote:

the worst fng part is... he can't be any different.. it's so troublesome to see anyone on here thinking they can be fixed. it's like turning a pumpkin into a car... they do not possess the qualities that make humans human.. it's the social and empathy qualities.. in any study of animals to human comparison.. most often those are the qualities they use to consider an animal more human. and these Psychopaths aren't human.


The last psychopath I met is not inhuman, but more comparable to a dog that has been raised wrong. An abused dog or just a natural follower raised without a leader will be extremely anxious and see only threats and victims, trying constantly, but totally unable to be the alpha. The reason I say this condition is treatable is that, if he has nowhere to run, the psychopath will bend to the alpha and be more relaxed. He's still a psychopath, but is much more controlled when he knows his boundaries and those are being enforced.

In our society where you have the option of moving a few blocks and becoming someone completely different, the psychopath can re-invent himself within a day if he needs to get away from an alpha or find a new victim, or even tear the alpha down using people from the outside who don't know the nature of the psychopath. Our isolation is what makes the psychopath able to operate, not some inhuman potential that the psychopath has.

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#12596 - 01/26/12 12:42 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Dianne E.]
Goran Offline
member

Registered: 01/25/12
Posts: 7
Ok, let me clarify that I have not had the dubious pleasure of knowing any psychopaths that are murderers and I believe that only very very few psychopaths ever become full blown violent criminals of that sort. That said, let's look at the rest of your post.

Originally Posted By: Dianne E.

I don't believe for a second they feel fear. They may act like they do to worm their way back in but they lack the brain wiring to feel anything for anyone but themselves and saving their own skin.


The first sentence is not validated by the second one. You can feel extreme anxiety and nothing positive for anyone else at the same time - that is almost the definition of being afraid. Once fear sets in, you will step on other people's heads to save your skin; just like you said. All the psychopath is doing is rationalizing the torturous consequences of his inferiority complex. Given, there is great variation in nature of psychopaths, but the bottom line is the same: the way they act is motivated by presence of something, rather than absence of something.

Here is what absence of fear does: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126224885

Overly trusting to the point of putting your life in other people's hands in an instant - does that sound like your average psychopath?

Quote:

You nailed it daddysproblem, totally superior, that sums it up. Nothing is their fault or ever will be, to me that sums up their no fear of their actions.


I think that that is what they would like you to think. Having you think they "feel supperior" or "have no feelings" validates their fantasy personality and wards off potential attacks. Anything that can threaten this image causes anxiety in them, because they by no means feel superior and will always feel like the victim. This is why they want to isolate you - they are afraid of rationality that a simple conversation produces. But make no mistake - they are terrified.


Edited by Goran (01/26/12 12:48 PM)

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#12597 - 01/26/12 08:03 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Goran]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Quote:
But make no mistake - they are terrified.


I have to take issue with such a statement. How can a Psychopath terrorize the victim and at the same time feel terrorized themselves. I have studied them not only from having this forum for many years but involved in cases where I got to see how they behaved up front and personal. Our forum members I believe have been terrorized by the Psychopaths in their lives, not the other way around.

If you have every read some of Ann Rule's excellent books about socialized Psychopaths I didn't walk away thinking any of the Psychopaths she wrote about were terrorized by their actions. It is usually their lack of any reaction that usually gets the police on their tail. They sure don't act terrorized when they attend a funeral of someone they murdered, quite often or in most cases that I know of their actions and lack of concern usually draw the attention of others by their behavior. I bet Scott Peterson terrorizied his pregnant wife Lacey the night he murdered her and dumped her in the San Francisco waters. At the vigil when they didn't know she was dead, he was on the phone chatting with his mistress telling her the background noise was because he was in Paris, where was his fear? and wandering around cracking jokes, he was the only member of the family not up on the podium. I don't see that as someone who is terrorized or showing any symptoms of fear but the person who terrorized the victim and really could not give a damn.

While I do believe that non socialized Psychopaths are more likely to end up in prison, I do believe they are all capable of murder given the opportunity or when the mask drops.

I feel that is offensive to our community who has in fact been terrorized and live in fear for a very long time from being in contact with a Psychopath.

You can't be in two places at the same time, how can you say that they feel terror while they are terrorizing victims?

One case I was involved in and watched closely, I saw no signs of terror and no fear over their actions, clearly it was a non socialized Psychopath but still the same (that was also their defense), the bank videos showed it all and they had entered with pre meditation (bought the guns the day or so before, had a get away driver and knew when the armored car showed up), it is my theory they knew that information because the armored car people carried guns and the odds of someone walking into the bank certainly wouldn't have guns and even if they had a concealed weapon they sure wouldn't have had time to pull it out of their pocket to defend themselves. The did NOT rob the bank but like a sport they point blank killed people as they walked through the door, I sure didn't say to myself after watching the video, hey that guy is terrorized or feeling fear. It showed me they had no conscience or feelings about their actions, they did in fact terrorize a normally sleepy, kind hearted small town where people went about their day and didn't lock their doors, they had no reason to live in fear until that happened.

The part that backs up my views is I saw the mug shot of the leader when he was booked not many hours after the crime oh and by the way, they were caught eating lunch right after the crime. He had a wide smile on his face so wide I almost threw up, I had to delete it immediately because the horror I felt was so strong, my empathy is with the victims. I don't know about you but if I was feeling terror or fear however you word it, stopping for a bite to eat would be the last thing on my mind. It is a small town and you don't meet anyone here who wasn't affected or terrorized over this horrific crime.

I don't buy that Psychopaths feel terror or fear.

I hope we can have a civil conversation but I just don't get how you can make such a blanket statement that a Psychopath feels terror or fear, it goes against what every victim here has suffered at the hands of. Who knows I could be wrong but we have never had a member enter our community who did not express the terror and extreme fear over what they endured at the hands of a Psychopath. To say the Psychopath is the one who feels terror or has any fear is offensive to me but we are a civilized community so I think I have made my views clearly.

I will leave this conversation for the members to add their thoughts. I am not going to argue the point it is counter to what I believe so others can share their views. This is just my view point.

The victims are the ones who are terrorized and live in fear not the other way around.

Di

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#12599 - 01/27/12 05:14 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Dianne E.]
Goran Offline
member

Registered: 01/25/12
Posts: 7
Originally Posted By: Dianne E.
Quote:
But make no mistake - they are terrified.


I have to take issue with such a statement. How can a Psychopath terrorize the victim and at the same time feel terrorized themselves.


Psychopath lacks the sense of personality and will try to create one through others. When a psychopath first meets a free-spirited and strong person, he will get an emotional high from convincing her that he is wonderful, caring, loving and better than any man alive. He is essentially addicted to YOU creating his personality. This can never be a lasting arrangement, because once he has convinced you, the fix wears off - to get a new high he has to either go further or go somewhere else.

Going further means convincing you he is even more than what he told you so far - for most psychopaths this is an impossible task. He can tell you that he's secretly Superman, but his inability to fly you to China for dinner will make a healthy dent in his personality fairly fast, putting a question to everything he has ever said. Not only that, but the victim at this point starts peeling the lies away from underneath him and this in turn not only removes his high completely, but brings around a terrifying low of facing the little [censored] he really is. The victim is rightfully and effectively destroying the psychopath's invented personality. He knows that a bad guy is much easier to play than Superman and now he has to act; in his mind it is self-defense 101.

The psychological high produced by his bad-guy personality will wear off and any threat from the outside (friends, family) will dig into him, so he will have to both isolate the victim and provide periodic 'good times' ("I joined therapy", "I got a new hobby", "I discovered Buddhism"). He can now re-enact his 'awesome' personality and turn for the worse shortly thereafter, all the while blaming it on his victim - he is basically recycling his victims awe and fear in order to feel like a man for a bit longer. This will eventually completely destroy his victim psychologically.

Children play into this in an interesting way:
1) he can try to establish a make-believe personality of a 'proud father'; sons are preferred. He really has no interest in the child itself, so this will be a massively traumatic experience for the kid.
2) the stronger attachment of the woman to the psychopath makes his personality creation through her less effective, since the more reachable she is, the weaker the base for his personality does her awe and fear provide. This is actually a pretty good time to ditch the psychopath, because he is losing interest for both the children and the woman and inconvenience of people wanting to defend the children grows. Many women let him go with the next victim at this time and feel lucky to have gotten away, which in my opinion works, but for me personally is not acceptable.

Throughout their life psychopaths get more and more accustomed to the fact that each victim will reach the stage of questioning and non-worship, so they start preparing for it from the outset. Tattoos, stories of a dark past, saying things like "I'm afraid of what I might do to you" are all calculated preparations that at a later time will make you believe his newly invented bad guy personality more thoroughly.

Quote:

I have studied them not only from having this forum for many years but involved in cases where I got to see how they behaved up front and personal. Our forum members I believe have been terrorized by the Psychopaths in their lives, not the other way around.


Don't get me wrong - the victim really IS a victim. The psychopath does not care one bit about his victim, no more than he cares about a knife he uses to cut the bread. He is just sharpening the knife more and more often as the edge wears off. His primary and only objective is to maintain a personality and nothing less then genuine awe or genuine dread from people around him will do. Since this is impossible to do effectively in a group for most psychopaths, he will try to isolate the victim. His massive ability to understand his victim's feelings tells us that he is not empty of empathy either; the empathy is rather 100% in service of his goal of maintaining a personality and is honed to its utmost.

Quote:

If you have every read some of Ann Rule's excellent books about socialized Psychopaths I didn't walk away thinking any of the Psychopaths she wrote about were terrorized by their actions. It is usually their lack of any reaction that usually gets the police on their tail. They sure don't act terrorized when they attend a funeral of someone they murdered, quite often or in most cases that I know of their actions and lack of concern usually draw the attention of others by their behavior. I bet Scott Peterson terrorizied his pregnant wife Lacey the night he murdered her and dumped her in the San Francisco waters. At the vigil when they didn't know she was dead, he was on the phone chatting with his mistress telling her the background noise was because he was in Paris, where was his fear? and wandering around cracking jokes, he was the only member of the family not up on the podium. I don't see that as someone who is terrorized or showing any symptoms of fear but the person who terrorized the victim and really could not give a damn.


Again, I have never known any psychopath murderers and this world may be somewhat different. I am not defending the psychopath or trying to tell you they are not dangerous; on the contrary! When their personality is in question, you are in essence questioning their existence and this can result in a considerable amount of terror. I can see how murder can be a part of this terror, but I believe this is extremely rare in the psychopath 'community' and that you should definitely not be scared by stories of murderous psychopaths.

For most people just making access to you complicated enough (strong friendships and family work wonders against isolation, focus on the safety of your children likewise) to push him off and being rational and unafraid is good enough. Personally I do not think a life in fear or being cow-towed is worth living, so going all the way against a psychopath is almost a given for me. I am considering going after the last one I encountered on a more personal level. I am considering warning his new girlfriend (who has a child, which makes it more likely that I will), warning people at his work, telling him outright that he is a pile of nothing slithering on the bottom of the bucket and basically not letting him breathe. I have some ideas on how he will react, but I will beat him regardless.

Quote:

While I do believe that non socialized Psychopaths are more likely to end up in prison, I do believe they are all capable of murder given the opportunity or when the mask drops.


Why all this focus on murderers? Am I missing something here? The standard psychopath is a psychological parasite, not a murderer. We should stop scaring ourselves with morbid stories and start asserting a more unafraid and free personality. I am convinced that that is the only real way to defend yourself successfully.

Quote:

I feel that is offensive to our community who has in fact been terrorized and live in fear for a very long time from being in contact with a Psychopath.


I am sorry you feel that way. What I am saying here is my experience and my sense of what is going on behind those eyes when I confront a psychopath and I hope someone can use it positively.

Quote:

You can't be in two places at the same time, how can you say that they feel terror while they are terrorizing victims?


Like I said, it's really the same place. They terrorize because they are terrorized. We should not feel bad for them, or have feelings of guilt towards them, although I know their victims have a tendency to do so. These individuals are mad dogs, grown children with no personalities and no regard for anything other than their own little problem and anyone feeling anything but disgust and disdain for these creatures does so on his and his children's and his family's and all of ours peril. I have read theories explaining psychopaths as some kind of 'evolutionary play' to forward humanity with no regard to consequences; I am convinced that this is wrong on its face: these people bring our species to the verge of extinction on daily basis because of their disregard for everything and they should be squished under a boot like the vermin they are. All this mysticism and 'no fear' 'no feelings' etc. is just confusing the issue.

If a psychopath read the last paragraph, he would know that its contents actually make you, the reader, more likely to sympathize with him, because of the ordinary compassionate person's inclination to be the devil's advocate. He knows this because he is not different than you and I, but he has different priorities. This simple question of priorities will destroy you, if you do not put your safety and your children's safety before your compassion and fear towards a psychopath. Let me repeat: treating a psychopath nicely because of his little problem is a mistake you will regret and nothing I say here should be interpreted as a defense of a psychopath. Understanding his little problem is necessary in order to defend yourself successfully, which is why I am writing this.

Quote:

One case I was involved in and watched closely, I saw no signs of terror and no fear over their actions, clearly it was a non socialized Psychopath but still the same (that was also their defense), the bank videos showed it all and they had entered with pre meditation (bought the guns the day or so before, had a get away driver and knew when the armored car showed up), it is my theory they knew that information because the armored car people carried guns and the odds of someone walking into the bank certainly wouldn't have guns and even if they had a concealed weapon they sure wouldn't have had time to pull it out of their pocket to defend themselves. The did NOT rob the bank but like a sport they point blank killed people as they walked through the door, I sure didn't say to myself after watching the video, hey that guy is terrorized or feeling fear. It showed me they had no conscience or feelings about their actions, they did in fact terrorize a normally sleepy, kind hearted small town where people went about their day and didn't lock their doors, they had no reason to live in fear until that happened.


Again, I must point out my lack of experience with psychopath murderers, but I will say that psychopath groups are virtually non-existent. These people are, by the nature of their little problem, unable to forge bonds. I do not believe all of the guys involved in the killings were psychopaths and quite possibly none of them were. If I was to speculate, one of them at the most might have been a psychopath and his personality narrative of a bad-guy needed a new and more radical fix; the rest were just the audience to his staged performance.

And again, psychopaths who kill people are very very rare and I do not find these types of stories very helpful when dealing with your ordinary functioning psychopath limited to threats and psychological torment. We should try to be less afraid of them and act more rationally to protect ourselves, not feed ourselves stories from the Twilight Zone.

Quote:

The part that backs up my views is I saw the mug shot of the leader when he was booked not many hours after the crime oh and by the way, they were caught eating lunch right after the crime. He had a wide smile on his face so wide I almost threw up, I had to delete it immediately because the horror I felt was so strong, my empathy is with the victims. I don't know about you but if I was feeling terror or fear however you word it, stopping for a bite to eat would be the last thing on my mind. It is a small town and you don't meet anyone here who wasn't affected or terrorized over this horrific crime.


Exactly - his little performance went well and in his mind he's now a tough guy, feared for a long time to come. We should focus on understanding that, if he is a psychopath, he is not some super bad-guy, but just a little [censored] who does this to establish a personality. He is weaker than any normal person. His little problem sent him off to jail for no reason; it's a case of him wanting to 'look good' and lose, rather than 'look bad' and win. In his eyes all of us are losers because we don't have this grandiose personality he built up for himself, but the facts clearly tell the opposite story: he is off to prison and he didn't even take he money, for god's sake. He willingly self-destructed. You don't get much weaker than being totally controlled by an inferiority complex size of Jupiter.

Again the murderers row gets us off track. I am more interested in the victim being less afraid and acting more rationally when faced with a regular psychopath at work or in your family. Understanding why he does what he does should do that for you. He is weak. You can defend yourself if you act rationally and if you know someone who is dealing with a psychopath, you can defend that person as well. Sticking together and rejecting isolation is the key. Knowledge in this case really is a weapon.

Quote:

I don't buy that Psychopaths feel terror or fear.


Yes they do. Stop scaring yourself more than necessary.

Quote:

I hope we can have a civil conversation


Of course.

Quote:

but I just don't get how you can make such a blanket statement that a Psychopath feels terror or fear,


If you have any questions or comments to what I have explained so far, please do post them. I believe it should be clear to anyone that psychopaths indeed are very troubled individuals and that exactly this is what makes them dangerous.

Quote:

it goes against what every victim here has suffered at the hands of. Who knows I could be wrong but we have never had a member enter our community who did not express the terror and extreme fear over what they endured at the hands of a Psychopath.


Again, not a contradiction at all. The more afraid you are, the less you can afford to care about others. A psychopath is professionally afraid. He has removed his feelings of compassion long ago, probably in early puberty and has been honing his empathy for the purpose of manipulation for at least that long. Please do not let this make you feel compassion towards them, because they will rip you to shreds for it. Use it as a reminder that there is logic behind his actions and that you can beat him by simply not buying his bulls**t and taking threats seriously in a rational manner.

Quote:

To say the Psychopath is the one who feels terror or has any fear is offensive to me but we are a civilized community so I think I have made my views clearly.


That's ok. I hope you understand that I am not trying to be offensive here.


Edited by Goran (01/27/12 06:25 AM)

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#12600 - 01/27/12 08:42 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Goran]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
To me it's interesting that you think there is such a clear dividing line between 'murderous' psychopaths and 'the other' kind.

Surely any sort of behaviour (on the psychopath's part) which they can use to subdue their 'victim' is fair game? Death threats, starvation, torture, sexual assault, rape...none of these murder, but all of these very effective. And I would suggest that these techniques are more widespread than you might like to think. Not such a clear dividing line after all.

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#12601 - 01/27/12 09:38 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: starry]
Goran Offline
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Registered: 01/25/12
Posts: 7
Originally Posted By: starry
To me it's interesting that you think there is such a clear dividing line between 'murderous' psychopaths and 'the other' kind.

Surely any sort of behaviour (on the psychopath's part) which they can use to subdue their 'victim' is fair game? Death threats, starvation, torture, sexual assault, rape...none of these murder, but all of these very effective. And I would suggest that these techniques are more widespread than you might like to think. Not such a clear dividing line after all.


What I am saying is that there is a almost non-existent chance of risking your life if you do confront a socialized psychopath, even smaller if you confront him as a group and no reason at all to constantly cycle this psychopath murderer image in front of people. It's exactly what the psychopath wants - everyone to consider him beyond challenge and throw all rationalization out the window. He's not beyond challenge.

I know these people are scary, they have ways to destroy people psychologically, but fear of murder should not be the first thing that freezes us stiff when dealing with one of them.

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#12602 - 01/27/12 10:36 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Goran]
Dianne E. Offline

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Okay, I am done with this. We have different views, I have NOT filled this community with murderous stories. I am only making my point that without a conscience all bets are off.

I could write a ton of stories I have followed of "socialized" Psychopaths who murder, watch the news if you don't want to follow their court cases.

There are no studies to date of socialized Psychopaths. The statistics of 1 - 3% come from studies in the prison population over 20 years ago. While studies are just now beginning, the socialized ones are too slick many times to get caught. Personally I would never confront and challenge a Psychopath, walking away is the only way to get off their radar and for many that is impossible when there are helpless children involved.

Quote:
but I believe this is extremely rare in the psychopath 'community' and that you should definitely not be scared by stories of murderous psychopaths.


Quite the contrary. This was the first online forum and I have supported victims for over 14 years. The victims are the ones who live in fear, not the other way around. I get emails everyday from victims too afraid to post because they live in fear of their lives and yes ALL of them are in the hands of "socialized" Psychopaths from Dr.'s to all professions. Truly sad stories because many of them involve children trapped in the middle.

I am too sick to go on, you seem to know more than me, so carry on. Should the members find this conversation offensive I am sure they will post. We are a community so if anyone is not comfortable having a conversation that flies in the face of the absurd we will stop.

You will never convince me that they feel fear. They feel nothing. If I met and someone I found was a Psychopath, I also would be in fear of my life and it is not fear baiting it is reality. I am not a person to live in fear but I think I know how they operate and that they are indeed capable of murder given the circumstances. I would get as far away as I could and off their radar. If they don't actually kill you they will sure make you sorry you are alive when you are left with nothing. I would rethink your plan to talk to the next victim, go ahead if you think it is a good idea. While the victim is in the "honeymoon" state your words will fall on deaf ears.

I have stated my views and you have yours, I am not one to engage in circular conversations. You must be way smarter than I because you have experience with one. Over the years, sometimes it is hard to carry on when new members join our community and express the sheer fear they feel for their lives at the hands of the Psychopath in their life. I feel great empathy for the victims and am actually sad to see new members show up because I can feel their pain and the fear THEY feel through their posts. I pray for the day there would be no use for our community, yet it continues because there are many too afraid to post and this forum will be here as long as I am alive.

Anyways, I am too sick and not going to argue my point. I have stated what my views are and if someone who was involved themselves, not on the outskirts like you can tell me they think their Psychopath felt fear then I would love to hear from them, they have yet to say such words in all these years so I have to believe that it isn't just something I am pulling out of my hat.

Di

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#12603 - 01/27/12 10:49 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Dianne E.]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
I think you're extremely naive if you think you can get between a psychopath and his next 'victim', and somehow manage to warn the 'victim' off.

Why? Because you're entering into a confrontation, and in a confrontation (any kind of confrontation) the psychopath has to win.

Not empty words on my part, but because I've been in your shoes.

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#12604 - 01/27/12 11:03 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Goran]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Originally Posted By: Goran
Originally Posted By: starry
To me it's interesting that you think there is such a clear dividing line between 'murderous' psychopaths and 'the other' kind.

Surely any sort of behaviour (on the psychopath's part) which they can use to subdue their 'victim' is fair game? Death threats, starvation, torture, sexual assault, rape...none of these murder, but all of these very effective. And I would suggest that these techniques are more widespread than you might like to think. Not such a clear dividing line after all.


What I am saying is that there is a almost non-existent chance of risking your life if you do confront a socialized psychopath, even smaller if you confront him as a group and no reason at all to constantly cycle this psychopath murderer image in front of people. It's exactly what the psychopath wants - everyone to consider him beyond challenge and throw all rationalization out the window. He's not beyond challenge.

I know these people are scary, they have ways to destroy people psychologically, but fear of murder should not be the first thing that freezes us stiff when dealing with one of them.


Sure, if you fancy risking everything, then go right ahead.

I have a story of a psychopath where I worked. Head of an institution, a man who faked his qualifications. Senior member of staff discovered it. He had no second thought in destroying her career and her name (through the press). And that's only what I found out through the press about what had happened. What else did he do to get what he wanted? With no conscience, what would he have stopped at?

What would you be prepared to risk? What is it that you most fear losing? Because that is what these people do, that is their currency. And not only, but they find corners of your mind that you didn't even know existed and things you didn't even realise were important to you or that you are afraid of.

What do you hope you would achieve? And how would you go about doing that?

Originally Posted By: Goran
...no reason at all to constantly cycle this psychopath murderer image in front of people.


I find this a little insulting. You know nothing about me, or my circumstances, what my story is, or what brought me here. And yet you're accusing me of 'constantly cycling this psychopath murdered image'?

For that reason, I'm out.



Edited by starry (01/27/12 11:17 AM)

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#12606 - 01/27/12 11:20 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Goran]
daddysproblem Offline
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Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 99
Goran,

Most of us on here have told their stories. Please share yours and maybe others can help you understand what your taking about. You need to let go of any preconceived notions about 'human beings' if you are to understand the psychopath.

More and more research is being done using mri scans and monitoring the brain activity in people. the psychopath brain operates as though it's been damaged. Brain injuries to certain parts of the brain result in behaviors equal to the psychopath.

So what ever you say about fear is not possible. But if you will keep at it.. please provide the research that supports this theory. I am disturbed by this because it is the commonality of the psychiatric community that keep telling the poor victim that THEY are in fact human (in our terms) when they are not. No Way, No How.

Another comment is that the topic of murder or violent behavior. This is another silly discussion. I'm sure whether or not they are violent all depends on other factors.. how they grew up.. their surroundings .. their ability to manipulate without physically harming their victims. That's all. My dad grew up in a nice upwardly mobile environment. He was physcially attractive, charming, funny, capable.. so why would he need to physically hurt someone.. the world was his oyster... EVERYONE loves him.. except he has destroyed and killed the souls of his wife and his children.

I have intimate experience with a psychopath. My entire childhood I watched him kill my family. picked them off one by one. he gives up on me because.. i don't know, because he doesn't have the same power over me.. i guess i'm stronger.. i see right through him.. i'm a witness to his crimes. why would he waste his time on me. all interactions are unpleasant for him. because i do believe they are narcissistic. of course, if you feel nothing for others, you must be centrally focused on yourself. And fear.. it's not even on my radar with him. his eyes.. my upbringing with him has made me an incredibly masterful observer.. of human nature... and people. his eyes.. no fear... just kindof interest.. with a twinge of curiosity... he's intuned to others like wolf...

there's a documentary.. stress, portrait of a serial killer...watch it.. guy studies a colony of baboons.. and the big ass baboons.. torture the others.. but when they are all tested for their stress hormones.. big baboon has none.. it's all good for him.. little victims die young.. due to major stress.. watch it.. please share with us where you derive your 'opinions' ..

opinions that are tested.. become fact.

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#12610 - 01/27/12 12:06 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: daddysproblem]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Originally Posted By: daddysproblem


Another comment is that the topic of murder or violent behavior. This is another silly discussion. I'm sure whether or not they are violent all depends on other factors.. how they grew up.. their surroundings .. their ability to manipulate without physically harming their victims. That's all. My dad grew up in a nice upwardly mobile environment. He was physcially attractive, charming, funny, capable.. so why would he need to physically hurt someone.. the world was his oyster... EVERYONE loves him.. except he has destroyed and killed the souls of his wife and his children.




This is interesting for me, as my dad had the most incredible upbringing. Well off, privately educated, he wanted for nothing, nothing. And yet sexual assault and violence is his currency. He started when he was a teenager, on his sister. I can only conclude he uses them as he enjoys it, they are effective and they really silence his 'victims'.

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#12614 - 01/27/12 01:06 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: starry]
Goran Offline
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Registered: 01/25/12
Posts: 7
Originally Posted By: starry
I think you're extremely naive if you think you can get between a psychopath and his next 'victim', and somehow manage to warn the 'victim' off.

Why? Because you're entering into a confrontation, and in a confrontation (any kind of confrontation) the psychopath has to win.

Not empty words on my part, but because I've been in your shoes.



Hi starry.

I'd be very interested in hearing everything you would like to share of your experiences, especially when it comes to confrontation. If you don't feel comfortable sharing details in public, I am fine with whatever communication suits you.

To the rest of the folks that find my posts offensive: they are not meant to be. I apologize if anyone was offended.

As to my own experiences, I've had many since I was a child, came through a war surrounded by some interesting individuals and the trend continued through my teenage years up until I was about 24. I am way over 30 now, am away from everything that may look like the underground, but it seems psychopaths just keep popping up around me. After the last experience with a sister of a friend scared out of her mind, I wanted to share my perspective with people. My experience is that faced with a group of people who mean business, a psychopath will back off. I am not affiliated with such groups any longer, but the victim's family should provide for an even stronger base. I don't expect to come out unscathed out of every fight and I'll tell you straight off I am not in a mood for one either, but some things we don't choose and we're glad we did it later. I'll tell you how that goes.

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#12616 - 01/27/12 01:23 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Goran]
daddysproblem Offline
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Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 99
Garan,

Your description of your experience has done nothing to illuminate your experience. There's nothing at all specific there.

It doesn't appear that you are coming from the same direction as the other members here. With that, you can not even begin to understand the psychopath.

Starry, what floats their boats is as unique and individual as their life experiences and other desires. And my dad was not well off.. he had to work hard. i'll give him that.. i only felt threatened by him.. with no real physical harm done.. but on the other hand, my siblings tell stories of physical and sexual harm. so.. he likes mexican food your dad likes french food.. they are still what they are.

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#12619 - 01/27/12 03:41 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: daddysproblem]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
You can click on any users name and view their posts so you can read their histories. Please don't ask anyone here to repeat their stories, just click on their username and you can read for yourself. I think it is you that needs to bring evidence to what you are declaring. I can't figure out if you are a troll or have some agenda.

I found no pleasure in "dubious" contact with watching murder trials involving Psychopaths. I had to keep an emotional distance so I didn't lunge across the courtroom and throttle them. I did attend the trials because I like to know what I am talking about and watching them up close and knowing they can't get to me is important in my learning so I can share with our community. The worst trial was before I moved here and I was contacted by the DA and reviewed all the documents to see if I could add anything. It is still a touchy subject here in this normally quiet town. At the time it was the worst mass murder in the US. There were other bodies that the killer told about from prison. I am 100% sure there are more but he has found God and quite happy in prison. It was sport killing. One woman saw them come out of a house a year or so before their rampage with what looked like a body and the police believed the perps that it was a deer, for gods sake, that poor woman was so shattered and in fear she left town so no one would know where to find her.

The entire community was in so much fear and anger and pain and the atmosphere was so heated they had to put up special bullet proof entrances to bring the Psychopath into the courtroom for FEAR some citizen might kill him during the trial, the DA had to put in bullet proof glass and special locks they never had to have on their offices because of the public outrage and the thousands of lives that were shattered, FEAR was in the air people breathed. The entire story is horrific. A well respected State Patrol officer committed suicide because he has stopped one of the gang a couple of days before and made a mistake when he input the numbers on a record check. That guy wasn't the main guy who was a full blow Psychopath but still the Officer had a strong conscience and was in so much pain thinking he could have stopped it.

Btw, the DA is now a friend of mine who I have lunch with often. I think when I say they feel no fear I am not just shooting from the hip. He has threatened from prison and put a hit out on the DA. It is TOTAL BS to say they have any form of FEAR.

I have met a few of the direct victims and it is hard to find anyone who wasn't connected to those that were shot in cold blood since I have been here, their lives are still shattered over the brutal killings. I strongly believe they are all capable of murder.

Who was in fear, NOT the Psychopath. I would bet my life on it and I don't say that lightly.

You need to back up your wild claims or this conversation is over, if any members post that they want you to stop it will stop.

I feel you are being glib and upsetting our community. Like another member suggested tell YOUR story and maybe we can understand where you are coming from, until you back up why you make such claims with some evidence instead of these bold statements you are making, this is going way off what our community stands for.

Clearly you have never been in fear of a Psychopath like everyone else here.

Di

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#12620 - 01/27/12 04:09 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Dianne E.]
Dianne E. Offline

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Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Goran, I have read through the latest posts by the other members of our community again very carefully before coming to this conclusion. I feel this conversation has gotten destructive. My role here is to keep the lights on and to most importantly protect the community from any form of abuse and this is riding in that direction. The members have suffered enough abuse for a million lifetimes and they won't get any form of abuse here, end of subject.

We are just not a good fit for you, there are lots of sites online now that would welcome your type of communication. We are a privately funded group so you have no one to go to if you want to complain about this decision besides me. Please don't bother, I won't read your emails so don't waste your time.

I hope you find a group that fits your personality and ideas.

Di

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#12625 - 01/28/12 03:34 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Dianne E.]
SonOfaPsychopath Offline
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Registered: 06/08/11
Posts: 29
I just want to outline a few experiences I have had whilst dealing with my father over the course of my life. His lack of fear is such an important and misunderstood aspect of his personality and not just because of the actions that have come as a consequence but also because I projected my own psychology onto him in varying ways. I would consider myself a slightly anxious person and I don’t like confrontation. I believe that this lead me and my mother to mistake my father’s complete lack of anxiety for bravery and strength.

I just remember being so terribly impressed with his composure and ability to calmly deal with numerous conflicts all at once during the course of his life. I now know that some of these conflicts were very serious but at the time I thought of my dad as being utterly principled. This lack of proper fear/anxiety is one of the reasons they can calmly handle the fallout from all the things they do and why they are able to cover their tracks so well.

I’ve seen my father get angry and contemptuous but I have never seen my father show proper anxiety – certainly not the kind that forces the rest of us to stop and properly evaluate our actions before carrying them out. Perhaps the closest my father came was when I caught him out regarding some of his lies. It was more of a kind of frustrated anger though.

It’s like empathy – he has lots of cold empathy but he isn’t able to make the next step and connect it with an emotional response. I’m not sure about how or if he feels emotions but there has always been something missing.

As for comments about socialized vs. criminal psychopaths I have something serious to say. I agree that you can’t live in fear and that most psychopaths don’t commit homicide and I agree that, for the most part, they are just parasites and conmen/women. However it is incredibly dangerous to come onto a forum like this and tell people that ”there is a almost non-existent chance of risking your life if you do confront a socialized psychopath”. The reality is that some psychopaths, like my father, do kill and they get away with it and by the time people realise it’s all too late. My father, for the most part, appeared more normal then normal people do so how do you know? If there is a lesson from my story it’s that things can go wrong when you challenge a person like my father… when your isolated and they can get away with it they might just do it – even if they are supposedly “socialised”.

By the way my father used to take my emails, dissect them into small paragraphs and intersect them with countless comments. It should have been a sign in hindsight…

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#12626 - 01/28/12 05:25 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: SonOfaPsychopath]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
It strikes me that you are very vulnerable, Goran. For the following reasons:

He has your attention. He most definitely has! Just look at the amount of time and energy you've put into all of this.

Your reasons for trying to help this woman and her child. I'm talking about your feelings here, and what those feelings are. I don't need to know for myself, but whatever those feelings are, he'll sniff them out and start twisting them around quicker than you can string a train of thought together.

And once the situation with this woman and her child is 'resolved' in whatever manner that may be, what next? Are you going to shadow him as he picks out his next 'victim'? There will, without a shadow of a doubt, be another victim. They will, no doubt, be equally vulnerable, equally deserving of those same feelings you had as his previous victim.

You are very obviously prepared to enter into the fray and give him yet more of your energy and attention.

Oh yes, he most definitely has your attention, you're most definitely caught in his web. Clever man that he is.

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#12627 - 01/28/12 05:37 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: starry]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
I'd also like to throw something else in, a lesson which I learnt. How well do you know this person?

I mean, I always thought I was an only child, I thought my father only had one child. He never told me otherwise.

Well, I went searching a number of years ago and discovered that there was a whole string of children, a whole string of half brothers and sisters to different women. And I discovered a whole string of marriages. Did he even bother getting divorced in between? Probably not. Why bother? Why not just lie, like everything else? It's much quicker and easier for sure. Marriage and children used like a bargaining chip.

It's taken me years to get my head around all of this, not being an only child any more, discovering other half brothers and sisters, discovering connections, wondering if there might be others, trying to reassess myself in all of this, work out how I felt, and then discovering that I wasn't the oldest child after all, there was someone else, someone before me. Having to rethink everything again, work out how I felt. And knowing that he was more than perfectly capable of doing to them what he had done to me. Hours and hours of excruciating therapy to untangle the threads of it all.

So you see, the things that you take for granted, the most important things about yourself, are probably those things that he will bring into question and use to try and destroy you.



Edited by starry (01/28/12 05:49 AM)

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#12628 - 01/28/12 05:45 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Dianne E.]
marinde Offline
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Registered: 09/19/11
Posts: 58
About fear in psychopaths: my ex tells me he has no emotions, no guilt, no fear. Can't bond. Only emptiness inside. I believe that. He's 100% fearless when it comes to his, my or my sons safety. He got me so scared and desperate that I did not want life anymore. And he knew it, enjoyed it, and tried to push me over the edge by increasing his games. While pretending to act out of kindness and love for me and my son. I believe he's capable of killing or kidnapping if he feels like it. What would keep him from it?

There's just one thing I can't understand. It feels like he is ruled by some weird primal fear (?) of losing control. He is paranoid and always expecting others to be hostile. I've seen him nervous, intimidated by some men..more like an animal that meets a stronger male than a human being. Especially if they are staring at him. He also seems to have "fear" of losing control over his body, f.e. growing old, weak or fat.

To me this is puzzling. It made me doubt. Is this fear? How can I understand this? Is this normal in psychopaths?

And, since I am forced to confront him to protect my child.. could there be anything at all that chases him away from us?? Or at least prevent more severe violence?


Edited by marinde (01/28/12 05:50 AM)

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#12629 - 01/28/12 06:04 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: starry]
marinde Offline
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Registered: 09/19/11
Posts: 58
Starry, you bring up the subject of not knowing the person..

This is something that touches me. Finding out that nothing was what it seemed to be and I did not know him at all was one of the most shocking and scary things to me. I have a child with him and know nothing of him, he is totally unpredictable for me. Many things he told me were fake. There are so many things that he has been hiding and I keep on wondering: what else is there? Does he have other children? What else that I do not know about? He is hinting at criminal things..is that true?

It was so unsettling to discover that I just knew nothing and I'm still puzzling to figure out "who is this man?" and also "who am I?". Because being in a relationship with him changed my whole view of myself.

This must be even more ehmm.. putting your world view and selfimage completely upside down (don't know how to express myself in english) if he's your father. I admire your coming out so strong.

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#12630 - 01/28/12 06:11 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: marinde]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
marinde, thank you. I've had a lot of help, some of it really very good.

In a sense it doesn't really matter what else there is. If you're feeling confused, frightened, stressed, lost, then that is justification enough for you to change your situation.

Do you have someone who can help you? Someone you can talk to (as much or as little as you want to say)? Someone who can listen and give you support? A close friend? Someone in your family?

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#12631 - 01/28/12 07:08 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: starry]
marinde Offline
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Registered: 09/19/11
Posts: 58
Thanks. You're right.

It feels like a tornado came over my life and left me sitting dizzy in the middle of all the broken stuff, trying to figure out what happened. Can't imagine what it must be like to grow up in all this.

But I do somehow have start building up again and change things. I'm trying hard now, especially for my son. I've quit all contact and I'm lucky to have family and friends supporting me and I finally found a good psychologist too. To convince the courts that unsupervised visitation is really not a good idea is the biggest challenge of the moment though.

As a child of such a father: do you have any advice on how to support my child in this, if ever he's forced to have contact with his father?

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#12632 - 01/28/12 08:56 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: marinde]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi marinade, we have a section here to discuss children and some resources, we have a member planetchildren who just made a wonderful victory, still the road to come but finally a judge go gets it:

What about the Children?

Speaking of fear, last night I was watching TV and I had a bunch of the show Dateline recorded on my DVR, jeez, they were all about socialized Psychopaths who had killed someone. And no I am not murder baiting, it is reality, we are just starting to see them captured and TV shows that show the real stories of their horrific crimes, one of them that stands out the most got away with murder for years, it was when a couple dug up their yard to put in a pool that they found his body, it is still unknown what happened to the wife, there is speculation she was part of it and is still alive. Luckily a wise detective had had her eyes on him and even though she was retired when she saw him his face on the news because he had abducted his daughter after a supervised visit, had a get away car and snatched the young girl. It hit the national news and the x cop when she saw his picture on TV she knew it was him from years ago. He was a master of disguise. He was married to a Harvard graduate woman and was a stay at home dad. When she divorced him she moved to the UK. To fill in the gaps she had discovered his lies and clearly must have moved so far away to get away. It was when she was here in the States for his visitation because he was only granted a couple of supervised visits a year. Luckily he was caught and the young girl was safely reunited with her mom. They said the mom fainted and fell over when she heard the news her daughter was safe. Imagine her fear was so great she just toppled over with the great news. A brave woman who had been childhood friends of the wife who is still missing was the one who kept the case alive, constantly seeking justice.

It is not hard to find many of these documented cases of socialized Psychopaths who have killed, they do NOT have any fear. We are just at the tip of the iceberg in finding the reality and frankly it backs up my feeling that they are all capable of horrific crimes, the socialized ones are just now getting on our radar.

Unlike the few "non socialized" crimes I have watched in person in court, they got caught quite easily because they just aren't as slick. If the Psychopath who lead the brutal slaying in the bank here hadn't stopped for lunch, who knows. They had killed before and didn't get caught, they only admitted to a couple from prison where they are locked up for life so they were safe from further prosecution. Fortunately they aren't as smart, one of the cars they stole, the get away driver split from the scene so they knocked an innocent couple aside and stole their car and they had a GPS system. Then they went to a farm where the keys were in the truck like people do here, people here had no reason or feelings of fear before this and a lot of people leave their keys in their cars and houses unlocked.

You don't stop and eat if you are in fear, they feel NOTHING. I watched the bank video, talk about trying to stay centered and in my neutral zone. I have had to put it in a place of my mind to not remember it. It has been several years and his booking picture is blazed in my mind, that wide smile still sickens me.

My closest friend here works with sex offenders, while she can't give me any details and I don't ask her because she can't tell their stories and frankly I don't want to hear them. In this State they transition here from prison until they pass the requirements and then get moved to another location. When she showed up last night to help me I told her I was upset because some jerk had been at our community spouting that they had no fear and asked her the question, do you think any of those people you have feel fear? She looked over her glasses and said you have got to be kidding me, they don't feel anything, they have no souls. This is coming from someone who has worked with them for 28 years.

Di


Edited by Dianne E. (01/28/12 09:03 AM)
Edit Reason: added comment

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#12635 - 01/29/12 10:28 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: marinde]
blueheron Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
Originally Posted By: marinde
There's just one thing I can't understand. It feels like he is ruled by some weird primal fear (?) of losing control. He is paranoid and always expecting others to be hostile. I've seen him nervous, intimidated by some men..more like an animal that meets a stronger male than a human being. Especially if they are staring at him. He also seems to have "fear" of losing control over his body, f.e. growing old, weak or fat.


Interesting you should mention this, Marinde. It's a very subtle thing to have seen this and be able to put it into words. Primal. This is what I have sensed in both of my Psychopaths (MIL and her daughter), but it's the only thing near fear that they have demonstrated. Maybe it's paranoia, maybe it is a startled pause to weigh the odds. Otherwise, they create a wide swathe of wreckage -- like a tornado -- with matter-of-fact certainty that they will get away with whatever it is they want.

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#12769 - 03/06/12 06:59 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: daddysproblem]
Mug42Long Offline
member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 16
I think the Psychopath has stress
The stress of trying to appear normal to the world
It must take a ton of effort
They may delight in causing harm, but they must fear being outed
Maybe they delight in that too, so they can turn it around to make you look bad and them the victim

Whatever, it's a game, I feel that:
every harm inflicted is done with a sneer, only joking, you are too serious, I was only having a bit of fun, lighten up

With all your resources put into conniving and manipulating, why do others die about them and they don't?
Stress may be their adrenalin. Stress to us is a killer, to them it's food!

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#13945 - 10/18/12 12:25 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Stephanie]
Gary92 Offline
member

Registered: 10/17/12
Posts: 18
If a psychopath fears anything, it is Truth.


They appear to react violently when oppressed and the curtain behind their tricks is pulled on them.

With that said and upon further thought, I don't think they fear anything, not even some high power. If they can manipulate their way through it, it's good to go for them.

With my own father, his whole argument against anything over him is how "corrupt" or "brainwashing" it is. That is your mother (any other family member that sees right through him), religions (ALL religions are evil blah blah blah, Jesus didn't exist blah blah blah, everyone is a nutcase who goes to church), government (even I don't really trust the government, but yeah I know, they are bad, you told me my entire life while bragging how great this country is), law enforcements (all cops are crooked, dirty, filthy pigs and whatever else according to him), and so on. But the funny thing is, the times he did get in trouble with the law (getting pulled over FROM WHAT I KNOW OF; I have no clue how many times he was arrested as a teenager) he was so cool and calm and managed to talk the cops out of letting him go for driving with an open beer in his hand, or reducing his ticket.



Edited by Gary92 (10/18/12 01:31 AM)

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#14268 - 02/09/13 01:33 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Gary92]
NotCrzy Offline
member

Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 61
I think a psychopath fears loosing control of a victim and having no replacement. When all is said and done their life revolves around manipulation and spewing their evil onto others. I think they fear not having that outlet and having to live without their "game". They will do anything to keep a victim under their control if they haven't already found a new target to play with.

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#14312 - 02/21/13 11:55 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: NotCrzy]
FreeBird Offline
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Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 230
Totally agree. My Psychopaths used to say "im afrair that i might loose you". I didnt understand it then coz it madeno sense given the situations but now it makes perfect sense. They dont really fear like we do but they can understand they might loose control. And thats it.

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#14676 - 04/03/13 05:53 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: 15percent]
overcome Offline
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Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 8
My understanding on the matter is that the word fear does no apply to psychopaths in any way.

What they "feel" is a strong and irresistible need of control. They need to know they have and can do whatever they want with you, they take pleasure from it, from controling and hurting people with their manipulation.

What also happens to psychopaths is that this inability to feel emotions like a normal human being drives them to search for another source of fulfillment and that´s what makes them hurt, deceit, manipulate, steal, rape, kill and no matter how many times they have done it already they will continue to do it for being a psychopath is to be trapped 24/7 in a state of boredom they cannot bare.

But one can ask why can´t they turn to do good things. The answer is really simple. Doing good things comes out of good feelings and they are completely empty inside, a mere shell of a human being which leads to definitions like a person without a soul, a monster, an animal...

But still why bad things? why not fix a car? paint a house? it doesn´t take good feelings to do it. well, the state of boredom a mentioned can suit us all from time to time, so we look for things to do so you can paint your house, fix your car, whatever, but eventually you stop being bored, they don´t.

In short, what they really look for is something that would give them pleasure and what gives them pleasure is to hurt, deceit... aaand what i didn´t say but it´s the most important, their whole behavior is not complete if they can´t get away with it that´s when they can turn dangerous because their frustration makes them react quick and violent.
One last thing. Even if a psychopath is caught doing something wrong they´ll never admit it, they will always try to blame someone else and in most cases their victims.

Sorry if someone else already wrote all of this. I just needed to get it out.

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#14677 - 04/03/13 06:08 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: overcome]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi overcome, welcome to our community.

Thanks for sharing your feelings. I totally agree I think the only fear they may display would be the fear of being caught, but even then not sure how to describe it, but it is much different from how we would process fear.

Quote:
But one can ask why can´t they turn to do good things. The answer is really simple. Doing good things comes out of good feelings and they are completely empty inside, a mere shell of a human being which leads to definitions like a person without a soul, a monster, an animal...


It is good that you are able to articulate what they really are. How long has it been since you have had contact with her?

Quote:
Even if a psychopath is caught doing something wrong they´ll never admit it, they will always try to blame someone else and in most cases their victims.


This is the heart of the matter, imo, the part that makes it so much harder for some to understand because in the mind of a Psychopath they are the biggest victim in the world while in fact they are victimizing others in the worst way possible.

That is why they are able to attract and lure in kind and nurturing people when they present themselves as the victim of their lives.

Di

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#14696 - 04/04/13 12:53 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Dianne E.]
overcome Offline
member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 8
Hi Dianne.

Thanks for taking your time to read.

Quote:
This is the heart of the matter, imo, the part that makes it so much harder for some to understand because in the mind of a Psychopath they are the biggest victim in the world while in fact they are victimizing others in the worst way possible.


Its true they victimize others in the worst way possible, as you said. But just to be clear, and i dont know if that´s what you meant, they dont consider themselves victims, instead they make you believe they are usually with a sad story of their past so people would feel sorry for them and once you start feeling sorry you empathize and so they use this empathy to get closer and closer to you and we all know what happens when they achieve their goal.

Quote:
It is good that you are able to articulate what they really are. How long has it been since you have had contact with her?


The last contact (which i regret) was in january. I was robbed at gunpoint and she ended up finding out about it and e-mailed me to know how i was and i answered saying i was ok. Although being a brief and cold message we can never fall for the temptation to attempt any contact with them for in their minds they see it as a sign of weakness and a chance to manipulate again. Lucky for me she didn´t try anything after that. But january aside the last contact was about 8 or 9 months ago.

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#14698 - 04/04/13 02:13 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: overcome]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi overcome, agreed, I don't think they are ever victims in reality as we would define it, just in their minds and how they express themselves to garner sympathy. I can't tell what is really in their minds, perhaps they do see themselves as victims, however that doesn't add up to what we see as what a victim is.

I am glad you have had your space and sorry about the robbing incident. I am sure it must have been a very horrific experience.

I assume you didn't have children with her?

Di

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#14708 - 04/05/13 12:08 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Dianne E.]
overcome Offline
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Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 8
Hi Dianne,
How are you today?

Quote:
I am glad you have had your space and sorry about the robbing incident. I am sure it must have been a very horrific experience.


Time has been a great friend as it wasn´t for a long time mostly because of my refusal to seek treatment. It took me drowning myself into alcohol and self agression to realize that but now i´m doing ok.
The robbing was really traumatic. I was tied up to six more people and thrown into a abandoned land near the beach, really feared for my life and after all i had been trough the experience just made me even bitter and angrier but i´m glad i left that behind.

Quote:
I assume you didn't have children with her?


We could´ve had but she aborted our child before it had a chance to be born which i only found out after the divorce because her mother told me, otherwise i would never know. My family says it was better that way and i know she would use the baby against me but that really hurted. I wanted so much to be a father and i know i will someday but sometimes i get myself thinking of how my child would be like if he/she had been born, almost a year old now. Anyway, that doesn´t make sad anymore it turned into just one more hollow memory of what was left behind. Do you feel like that too? About memories?

Thanks for your support.

By the way, i´m not from the United States and i don´t even know if this forum is but i always watched about support groups on Tv and tried to find one that would fit my case, luckly i found this one. It has been of great help to read about what everyone has been through and how they are fighting to get back to what they once were, good people, happy people. It all fuels me to keep going. In the end, i´m 100% sure that no matter the time we all will heal, will truly love and trust again. I look at this monitor and can´t stop to think about how strong we are. I feel great just writing about it.

Thanks again.


Edited by overcome (04/05/13 05:37 PM)

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#14714 - 04/06/13 08:01 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: 15percent]
getaway Offline
member

Registered: 12/15/12
Posts: 6
I never saw any fear when living with the psychopath, but he made out he was fearful of the authorities catching up with him....even faked a breakdown which was a little amusing since he copied all my actions from an incident where he had pushed me to my limit.
I never did get around to telling him that that is most likely not how a guy would carry on in those circumstances.

They like to rule by fear of one kind or another though! You find yourself changing your daily routines ....all in fear of upsetting them...you get programmed so covertly to do things their way to avoid the reprisals be it an argument, punishment of some kind.

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#14836 - 04/17/13 10:34 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: daddysproblem]
daddysproblem Offline
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Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 99
Well, I have returned to the site... It happened again. It seems that my friend is nearly identical to my daddy. Not on the outside, on the inside.

This led me back to what they feel.

The thing is, they don't feel empathy. Their actions or lifestyles, their facades, are as diverse as their upbringings.

I think the harm they cause is more an expression of their level of disinterest as opposed to them trying to hurt someone. Even the worst of them, the killers, I don't think they do it to hurt the person, they do it because they enjoy the act. Like popping bubble wrap.. why do we do it? I don't know, it's just fun.

For a psychopath, other people require no emotional exchange.. people are just objects.

You can't determine their feelings or motives by their outside actions. They are experts at deception. Because they are deceived by themselves. They don't see themselves. I've read they think everyone is like them.

I finally confronted my friend.. again... for the 100th time.. (yes, apparently i'm a very slow learner) and he commented (i was angry because he didn't stick up for me) that i just have a thin skin, that he himself is thick skinned. The truth is that it's the other way around. Everything he does is to have others like him - and they do - he is the NICEST guy. In public, he gives the big tip, offers to carry your packages, help you move, bring you food, sad face when you tell him something sad, happy face when you tell him something good. on and on.. but behind closed doors.. he doesn't. I started noticing that sometimes in public he would forget these social displays of his wonderfulness, like maybe helping with groceries... and then it would click... i'd see the lightbulb go on.. ooops, this doesn't look good, me - big guy - empty handed, her - small woman - 3 bags, then he offers to carry something. Same with emotional issues.. he didn't stick up for me when our neighbors dog tried to attack me... complete blank expression... so detached from the experience... so not normal... i told him that dog scares me.. and he said, yes, i can see that. But he does nothing. He looks, does nothing, and goes home. (creepy..)

so, do they feel fear? they have such a different experience with 'feelings' than we do. They must feel something, because they respond. But they don't care about others. I think they feel fear.. not fear for someone else, fear for themselves. But they might be unlikely to understand when they are in danger. Because they don't really understand what someone else is feeling? This is a tough one because they are so emotionally dishonest. That's why they lie, because they really have no connection with others, others just end up being manipulated. Not intentionally, instinctively. They have TO offer, not that they WON'T offer it. It's not a choice.

It's like trying to train a dog that is not food or praise motivated.. what do you do?

Psychopaths are not even animals, they are so anti-social, inside.. that you can't really read them.

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#14837 - 04/17/13 10:40 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: daddysproblem]
daddysproblem Offline
member

Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 99
No matter what - they want to get their way. They will do what they can to get their way. They won't have any ethics about it. Because they don't care about others. No empathy, no compassion, no remorse..

So - their actions are just them trying to get what they want. How ever they have LEARNED by their upbringing and environment to accomplish that.

So we (experts and victims) keep pointing to 'actions' to determine the psychopath. That is so very simplistic.

Some people do nice things because they truly care, and others do it to manipulate peoples feelings about them.

How can anyone but someone who is intimate with these people know which is which?

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#14839 - 04/17/13 11:11 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: daddysproblem]
Nan Offline
member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 501
Originally Posted By: daddysproblem

[…]

Some people do nice things because they truly care, and others do it to manipulate peoples feelings about them.

How can anyone but someone who is intimate with these people know which is which?


Thank you, Daddysproblem, that's a very good question. Let me think on it for a bit ;-)

Nan

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#15151 - 05/16/13 08:26 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Nan]
sweetb Offline
member

Registered: 05/15/13
Posts: 13
Mine was afraid of mice and heights. He was like a little girl if he had a mouse in his house.
_________________________
Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torments of man.

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#16051 - 09/30/13 12:45 PM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: 15percent]
toomuchstuff Offline
member

Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 38
Mine seems to have no fear. He is sexually turned on by inducing fear. He likes the power dominance.

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#16059 - 10/03/13 08:55 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Anonymous]
toomuchstuff Offline
member

Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 38
I agree with the lack of anxiety, my last Psychopath never got nervous. At first it came off as very spiritual but in court I could really tell it came from lack of connection to the situation on hand. It was down right creepy...He just calmly lied to the judge. The judge accepted his lies like he was hypnotized by the Psychopath!

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#16060 - 10/03/13 09:47 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: toomuchstuff]
tangledup Offline
member

Registered: 04/09/13
Posts: 25
My Psychopath (daughter who's now an adult) only showed fear of one thing in her life - porcelain dolls. She used to say the eyes creeped her out. Which I find fascinating because my daughter is a master of scaring her victims with her angry eyes. Maybe for her it was like looking into a mirror.

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#16065 - 10/04/13 11:13 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: tangledup]
crocodile Offline
member

Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 329
I once asked my Psychopath if he was ever afraid of dying. He said that no. It baffled me, since I thought every human being is afraid of death...

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#16340 - 04/26/14 06:21 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: Dianne E.]
Nolongerblind Offline
member

Registered: 04/25/14
Posts: 5
You're 100% right Dianne, they dont feel fear or recognize it in a another person either. Its not possible for them to put themselves in another persons shoes "empathy" .. so they will terrorize you and feel nothing and never respond to you feeling anything from what they're doing. With FMRI scans they have known for a long time the Frontal cortex/ Amygdala is inactive in Psychopaths. So no fear, empathy, sense of self, compassion, reflection, etc etc is realized. Its like a machine. Hence why they never learn or care to learn from mistakes... they repeat the same things over and over and over.. As well as having horrible memories, and very rarely dream if ever...


Originally Posted By: Dianne E.
Quote:
But make no mistake - they are terrified.


I have to take issue with such a statement. How can a Psychopath terrorize the victim and at the same time feel terrorized themselves. I have studied them not only from having this forum for many years but involved in cases where I got to see how they behaved up front and personal. Our forum members I believe have been terrorized by the Psychopath's in their lives, not the other way around.

If you have every read some of Ann Rule's excellent books about socialized Psychopath's I didn't walk away thinking any of the Psychopath's she wrote about were terrorized by their actions. It is usually their lack of any reaction that usually gets the police on their tail. They sure don't act terrorized when they attend a funeral of someone they murdered, quite often or in most cases that I know of their actions and lack of concern usually draw the attention of others by their behavior. I bet Scott Peterson terrorizied his pregnant wife Lacey the night he murdered her and dumped her in the San Francisco waters. At the vigil when they didn't know she was dead, he was on the phone chatting with his mistress telling her the background noise was because he was in Paris, where was his fear? and wandering around cracking jokes, he was the only member of the family not up on the podium. I don't see that as someone who is terrorized or showing any symptoms of fear but the person who terrorized the victim and really could not give a damn.

While I do believe that non socialized Psychopath's are more likely to end up in prison, I do believe they are all capable of murder given the opportunity or when the mask drops.

I feel that is offensive to our community who has in fact been terrorized and live in fear for a very long time from being in contact with a Psychopath.

You can't be in two places at the same time, how can you say that they feel terror while they are terrorizing victims?

One case I was involved in and watched closely, I saw no signs of terror and no fear over their actions, clearly it was a non socialized Psychopath but still the same (that was also their defense), the bank videos showed it all and they had entered with pre meditation (bought the guns the day or so before, had a get away driver and knew when the armored car showed up), it is my theory they knew that information because the armored car people carried guns and the odds of someone walking into the bank certainly wouldn't have guns and even if they had a concealed weapon they sure wouldn't have had time to pull it out of their pocket to defend themselves. The did NOT rob the bank but like a sport they point blank killed people as they walked through the door, I sure didn't say to myself after watching the video, hey that guy is terrorized or feeling fear. It showed me they had no conscience or feelings about their actions, they did in fact terrorize a normally sleepy, kind hearted small town where people went about their day and didn't lock their doors, they had no reason to live in fear until that happened.

The part that backs up my views is I saw the mug shot of the leader when he was booked not many hours after the crime oh and by the way, they were caught eating lunch right after the crime. He had a wide smile on his face so wide I almost threw up, I had to delete it immediately because the horror I felt was so strong, my empathy is with the victims. I don't know about you but if I was feeling terror or fear however you word it, stopping for a bite to eat would be the last thing on my mind. It is a small town and you don't meet anyone here who wasn't affected or terrorized over this horrific crime.

I don't buy that Psychopath's feel terror or fear.

I hope we can have a civil conversation but I just don't get how you can make such a blanket statement that a Psychopath feels terror or fear, it goes against what every victim here has suffered at the hands of. Who knows I could be wrong but we have never had a member enter our community who did not express the terror and extreme fear over what they endured at the hands of a Psychopath. To say the Psychopath is the one who feels terror or has any fear is offensive to me but we are a civilized community so I think I have made my views clearly.

I will leave this conversation for the members to add their thoughts. I am not going to argue the point it is counter to what I believe so others can share their views. This is just my view point.

The victims are the ones who are terrorized and live in fear not the other way around.

Di


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#16603 - 06/27/15 05:24 AM Re: Do Psychopaths feel FEAR? [Re: 15percent]
cinamon Offline
member

Registered: 06/26/15
Posts: 2
Loc: uk
my experience is the only thing they fear is being caught. i live in a block of flats and my psychopath is a neighbour who has been stalking me for 2 years, ringing my buzzer, knocking on my door continually (quietly as he dont want the neighbours to no what he is up to) trying to have conversations with my through my letterbox-i now have a lock on that so he cant open it, creaping around the stairwells and up behind me when i am going into my door. i think they thrive on thinking they have power over you or things. mine also has and obsession with the communal windows if you open/shut them he will come downstairs and put them the way he wants them - top one open bottom one shut. this was stressing me out also in the end i decided so what if it is freezing cold, let him think he has control of the windows if it makes him happy. he also likes to organise the rubbish that is left outside - i really do think this gives him a sense of having control-its quite bazarre really, well i recently was discussing the window situation whith a neigbhour as because my flat is next to one of them they think i am the one that keeps opening it when it is zero degrees outside. im sure he must have heard me telling the neighbour what he does as ever since then the windows have changed. they are both now wide open. i can just tell that me telling the neighbour about this has frightened him as he does not want to be exposed, he probably is fearful that i have told her about the other stuff he has been doing as he has now started to ring her buzzer in the early hours.
the fear they have is all about them, they fear being exposed and being seen in a bad light its all about pretence they fear the world finding out what they really are.


Edited by cinamon (06/27/15 05:30 AM)

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