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#6586 - 01/28/08 07:57 AM Re: RAD or Fledgling Psychopaths? [Re: ]
jan36
Unregistered


Hi Segaya

Did you mean that you ran a support group for parents of children with RAD?

Most of the psychologists do not use the term RAD and I was told by one them that this is an American term and has no medical credence. To me it sounds like a nice way of saying something that sounds like an illness rather than the prelude to psychopathy or at best anti social behaviour.

I still believe that there are primary psychopaths who are born that way through the spectrum to anti social people who have been affected by their upbringing because they have that propensity. There are people like yourself who have had a terrible childhood but do not go on to have these conditions.

There is some research on children from places like the orphanages in Rumania where children are totally neglected and have no stimulation and it is thought their brains donít develop in a way that allows them to experience emotions. Bonding with a parent or caregiver is supposed to happen straight after birth and if that doesnít happen then the child may never learn how to bond with anyone.

I can understand that a child who was never comforted from birth learns to not trust anyone and therefore doesnít form an attachment but Iím not sure this would apply to every child who has suffered neglect as I have heard of people who live appalling lives from birth but do go on to from loving relationships. Do you identify with this?

From what I understand is that the professorís theory was to keep children from attaching by moving them every 3 weeks but when you read about RAD the theory is that the children must learn to attach so the opposite should happen.
Children with RAD are not supposed to be able to form attachments anyway so the only reason I can see for constantly moving them is so they donít get to study the parent figure and learn how to manipulate them.
I would think the firm rules support this idea by not allowing manipulation.

I do know what you mean about the body posture, my partnerís kid had a strange way of holding himself by which I mean the way he stood, walked etc. He never swung his arms even when walking quickly but he did tend to run everywhere even as a teenager. Do you know the way I mean-like toddlers run everywhere but the grow out of it by 6 or 7 years. He ran with his legs sort of cycling high in the air with his arms straight down by his sides. He reminded me of John Cleese doing Ďhis Ministry of Silly Walksí sketch. Did you ever see this on TV?
He walked with his head tucked into his shoulders as though he hadnít got a neck and with his arms stiff by his side. He kept his chin down on his chest and looked from under his eyebrows rather than straight at you. He looked sinister and creepy. His eyes were blank and I noticed in every photo of him there was no shine in his eyes and his smile was a sneer not a happy grin.

On the few occasions when he first tried to manipulate me he would lie on the sofa beside me as though to snuggle up but he was just stiff and it was impossible to cuddle him. This was when he was trying to do the cute little boy act to get something from me. It didnít last! He did things like this that no other kid his age (he was a teenager at this time) would do, it just wouldnít be Ďcoolí. He knew that people showed physical affection but he didnít know how to do it and his attempts at being physical were always inappropriate.

I donít know what his body posture was like as a baby as that is not the sort of thing my partner would remember and I didnít meet the kid until he was 7 years old. He looked about 4 or 5 then nd behaved like a child a lot younger. He has always been undersized but has a very large head which is nearly as wide as his shoulders and his shoulders are extremely narrow. He never reached any of the intellectual milestones and is now what I would consider backward but Iím not sure he is as backward as he makes out.

I have never heard about the baby in the womb research, that sounds fascinating and I do hope you can find some links.

I look forward to finding about more about this,

Regards Jan

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#6588 - 01/28/08 01:08 PM Re: RAD or Fledgling Psychopaths? [Re: ]
Segaya
Unregistered


Hi Jan,
Yes that is exactly what I mean. But.... I just started it...not knowing anything about it at the time, except for my experiences with my son. I just was used to work with groups of people in supportgroups. People are people...( as long a they are not p's...)

I didn't do it for a very long time. as I told , after a year I handed the work to some other, nice woman who took over. I still don't have very much knowledge about it other then what I saw on the documantairy of dr. Hare and what I lived with my son and before that with my so called parents.
Since reading on this forum I understand that my knowledge is quite a lot , but not more than others here. The knowledge I do have is from my work with people in trouble and teaching them how to cope with it. It's doesn't really matter what kind of trouble they're in... As I said before it doesn't matter where the pain and frustration and lonelyness is coming from, it 's all about taking care of ones self and this way be able to face the world and all there is in it.

Most of the psychologists do not use the term RAD and I was told by one them that this is an American term and has no medical credence. To me it sounds like a nice way of saying something that sounds like an illness rather than the prelude to psychopathy or at best anti social behaviour

This is exactly what the parents of this supportgroup heard when they give the thing that was wrong with they're child a name themselves.
Proffesionals just don't except it. I, later founding out about psychopathy, made the connection in a diffrent way as you do... They didn't recognize this what you call RAD as they don't recognize the existance of psychopathy.

My feeling about it didn't change over the years... I still think this has to do with ego.
The proffesional workers in the field of psychiatry just don't want to except that this disorder is existing because they don't know what to do with it.... If you do not acknowledge the disorder to be there, then you don't have to do anything with it. You don't have to study it, you don't have to deal with it, you don't have to deal with parents and loved ones , you don't have to treat it and above all,you don't have to admit you can't do a damn thing about it.....It's all about loosing face as we say it!

I could wish they would see it as an illness... An illness can be cured mostly... I think the reason the don't call it a disease or illness even is again..they can't do anything about it, so they just don't acknowledge it.. it's the easy way out.


There is some research on children from places like the orphanages in Rumania where children are totally neglected and have no stimulation and it is thought their brains donít develop in a way that allows them to experience emotions. Bonding with a parent or caregiver is supposed to happen straight after birth and if that doesnít happen then the child may never learn how to bond with anyone.
I can understand that a child who was never comforted from birth learns to not trust anyone and therefore doesnít form an attachment but Iím not sure this would apply to every child who has suffered neglect as I have heard of people who live appalling lives from birth but do go on to from loving relationships. Do you identify with this



This is something I put a lot of thinking in;
I looked indeed at my own youthyears and to that of my sons.

Indeed things happend that made him worse.
His father was very aggressive and once get his way in my house without permission after we just divorced. He tried for several hours to rape me, He beated me, strenglled me and so on and my son was watching it all. I try to get to him to save him ,but I couldn't.
I was the protecting, loving mother, whatever...my son was the most importend person in this world and I would do anything for him. I know...and I am only saying this because my younger son will never read this... I was much closer to him than to my other son who was born 8 years after the first. I did everything with my son, there wasn't even one day that I went away not taking him with me. ( one..I almost forget...he broke his jaw that day!!!)Other people noticed this and say they wished they had a relationship with they're children like I had with him....This made all that followed very hard. I saw my son going the wrong direction and I was helpless, couldn't do anything to prevent it to happen.
Now, looking back, knowing more and know about the sighns.... He was acting strange even before the thing happend with his father;
The fact that he didn't cry for over a year when he was so young... The not being able to feel any pain, the fast way of learning skills far ahead of his age. The interest in material things,more than toys. The way he moved, His skills of the big movements was increddible but little thing like making drawings or paintings, or little things kids do at a certain age...He just couldn't do it and still can't. till making big movements is a skill he has.
If it's is footbal, soccer, baseball, dancing, tea'kwondo, playing the piano.. it's all far better then others.
So, he started out as a child who had to develope psychopathy in the longer run.

As I look at my childhood;
I am a person who is capable of love and I do have a consious.
For example...
When I was almost 2 years old we went to live on Aruba. this island was part of the Netherlands. my father was in the marine and so there was this possiblity for the family to live there for 3 years.
There on the beach, I was alone and surrounded by three men in uniform. I will spare you the details but I want to tell that my feelings and thoughts were about;"they aren't suppose to do this to me'....

I wondered a lot where these thoughts came from. Aspecially as I learned more and more about psychcology ans sociology.....
I was sexualy abused since I was a few days old..Nobody told me ever that this wasn't suppose to happen to a child..Why did I know this was/ is wrong????
We all 'know' a child learnes about good and bad and values by skills teached by parents, schools, and envirronment.

I came to the conclusion that a ( nomal) child does have an inner knowledge of good and bad. All children are different and some will hold on to this knowldge where others simply aren't able to. This, I think, have to do with character and personnality rather then with upbringing and learned skills.

I came to the conclusion that If the child is born to be a psychopath he/she will be. No matter how carefull you are as a parent, no matter how you protect your child and give it the love it should have. There will be a moment in time this will come to survice and show.


From what I understand is that the professorís theory was to keep children from attaching by moving them every 3 weeks but when you read about RAD the theory is that the children must learn to attach so the opposite should happen.
Children with RAD are not supposed to be able to form attachments anyway so the only reason I can see for constantly moving them is so they donít get to study the parent figure and learn how to manipulate them.
I would think the firm rules support this idea by not allowing manipulation


You understand well. I am sorry I wasn't more clear about it.

Because this proffesor made scans for a long time he was certain this children can't learn to attach. he was working with these type of children for a long time by then and I guess he tried something new here.
I think he wanted to know ; if children are not able to attach then what other ways are there to make good behaving adults out of them.
The attachment programs are plenty and mostly don't do what they ment to do...This was an experiment and it worked.

I try to get in contact with this proffesor who did the reasach on the scans...but it will be hard to find him and get to know waht I want to..I will do my best and as soon as i hear something you are the first to know!!!

I want to ask to all readers.....If you are a parent or if you do know parents of children who you think are psychopaths please look at there babyphoto's and compare them to other children. Do you notice anything in the way they hold there body or other things???
Please tell on this foum what you think and found?
Love Segaya

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#6590 - 01/28/08 05:30 PM Re: RAD or Fledgling Psychopaths? [Re: ]
jan36
Unregistered


Hi Segaya

I think we have both come to the same conclusions about RAD, the development of psychopathy, that true Ps are born that way and the attitude of many of the professionals. I hope that it is ignorance on the part of the professional rather than they are trying to cover up an unwillingness to admit defeat.

Do you mind if I ask about your early relationship with your son? You said you did everything together, did he give you anything in return when you showed him love? This is a very hard thing to ask about your own child but did you see in your son the child you hoped to have and excused things you saw rather than have to accept things you didnít like? Do you remember the first things that made you think something was wrong with your son, was it when he was a baby or much later?

I understand what you mean about the big movements. My partnerís kid never played with toys and certainly not construction toys like Lego that needed fine motor skills. He didnít draw or paint because he didnít have any imagination. Unlike your son, this kid was pretty useless at everything. I canít think of one thing he did well apart from reading but that is an unknown quantity as itís impossible to know what he got out of a book or whether he was really reading. I did see him hold book upside down for a whole afternoon so know he sometimes wasnít reading at all. He spent the time watching me while I read but I never understood what that was all about.

You said about things your son couldnít do that small children do and still canít-well my partnerís kid canít blow his nose and basic things like that. He doesnít have any dexterity for things like tying shoelaces and certain simple words he canít say.

I do recognise what you say about the greed for material things, this kid wanted things constantly and many things that other children wouldnít think of. Also sweet food items, for example if I let him choose a packet of biscuits in the shop he would insist on having 2 or even 3 packets and if I refused he would stamp his feet and swear and behave like a baby. He wanted all the latest crazes (like most kids do) but he wouldnít wait or save or barter with other kids and had tantrums as soon as he came out of school and would try to wear us down till we gave in. I NEVER gave in whereas his father used to before I was around so he knew it was me he had to break and get rid of.

Iím really looking forward to information on the professorís research. Maybe it suits kids like this not to be in a position to attach to anyone. If they canít attach and donít want to attach then maybe itís the best way. My partnerís kid would stay with anyone as they were a potential source of supply for him to work on. For him people were just something to exploit and when familiar people had been used up then he was quite happy to move on to the next source.


Regards
Jan

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#7047 - 06/12/08 01:24 PM Re: RAD or Fledgling Psychopaths? [Re: ]
Damaskrose Offline
member

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 54
Reading up on rad and my daughter exhibited many of the signs but we had no idea... she could be so charming and good that if ever we got close to thinking we should go for help she seemed to improve for a while and we took it to be just normal childhood stuff. By the time we realized how serious it was it was way too late. She was a teen out of control. I think that adoptive parents should have more support and advice about these attachment disorders even if the child appears ok as they will often not show for years afterwards or be hard to define by a lay person. Out of the 33 listed signs I note our daughter had 29! and she was adopted at four after having two changes of caregiver and twice being abandoned by her birth mother in foster care and possible sexual abuse in foster care by older girls but yet she was presented to us as being a well adjusted child with mild issues relating to being shy and parted from her mother. We were so naive we had no real idea of what could lay ahead and we were in truth not equipped to deal with it. I grieve for my child and my family......

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#7049 - 06/12/08 02:40 PM Re: RAD or Fledgling Psychopaths? [Re: Damaskrose]
jan36
Unregistered


Hello Damaskrose

I have heard it said so many times when parents are fostering or adopting a child that they were told the child doesnít have any issues. If onlyÖhow would the agency know what it is like day to day, the child is not in a position to display the full range of problems until they are in the family environment?
Most times there is the Ďhoneymooní period when the child settles in and works out how to manipulate the mother, father, siblings, grandparents, teachers and family friends. Each person plays a role and can be pitted against each other, some will say the child is wonderful and then blame another person in the circle, usually the mother. It seems to be the mother figure who gets the most aggression and the one who has to be brought down.

It is my belief that true RAD and psychopathy are the same thing but the water is muddied by RAD being over diagnosed when another condition is more likely. RAD is a more acceptable term to use and sounds like a medical condition therefore deserves sympathy so parents feel less threatened or guilty.

I understand you feeling grief, you have lost the daughter and family you thought you had. Do you think the other children feel the same or do they accept she has gone?

I feel you are going through a period of exploration and having to come to terms with what you are beginning to have confirmed. Iím sure there will be some bad times to come but also some relief in knowing that you are not on your own.

Regards
Jan

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#7050 - 06/12/08 03:59 PM Re: RAD or Fledgling [Re: ]
Damaskrose Offline
member

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 54
The youngest two were babies when she left and have only fleeting contact over past few years. My youngest daughter went to the cinema with her last year though and commented that C kept looking at her strangely. The oldest two boys seem to just accept that is how she has always been aloof and on/ off with joining in family stuff. Only this year we have started talking as a family about it and their insight has been that they felt she was only being a typical annoying sister but they knew she lied and pretended to be different ways with different people. My eldest caught her out in lies many times though and he felt she tried to blame him for some of the thefts etc but he did not tell me at the time. She used to tell them she wished they were dead but hey all sisters do that but he still feels she really wanted him dead as she went into detail. They remember good times too and I guess it was not all bad. It just feels horrible when you realise what was happening and you were so blind to it. I think we were so not on her level that she just played around and found it easy until teen years when we started saying no over boys and staying out all night etc.. Then we felt the wrath. I think these children are very intelligent in many ways but emotionally vacant. I have my concerns that she is hurting a once good friend of mine who has tried to help her I believe she planned the friendship right down to moving into a flat above her. But I am not getting involved it will be a waste of energy.

Although I do not blame the agency involved I do feel angry that social workers gloss over the issues to make the child as attractive as possible. The rad children slip through because they know how to pretend. I think at four years old this child was able to sum us up quite quickly and was way ahead in social manipulation. That is worrying. Someone who knows us and our daughter said do not ever ever have other children she won't be able to accept it and I feel that was my ultimate betrayal to her. She kind of accepted the two boys as they were there to begin with.
They see her driving around but do not socialise. She lives very close I think they find it hard accepting how she has discarded them but they aren't surprised.

She also rang me up drunk one time and said don't ever tell anyone I am adopted and don't you dare tell the little ones. She meant the youngest two and I found that odd because she tells people she is adopted and yet also I remember she got angry when her brother D found out she was adopted. He had only been two when she came to us. I think he was bout eleven when he asked about it. In her mind it seems she can tell who she wants but we must not discuss it. I think there is something important in that bit of information to do with control. I am interested in this now only to work out what is best way forward for mental health of all concerned. It is only by writing and remembering that truths will surface.

As these children get older they often hide who they are and yet the clues I feel are there and I am one of the main care givers I know much about this child and now my mind is not being manipulated anymore by love it seems to need to document what I know. My daughter ruled the family because we loved too much and hid our worries about her or pushed them aside we wanted her to be 'normal'. Now I am in control because I am starting to understand. She will try to find a way in I know she will be angry now all her sources of information have dried up but talking to the boys has made me realise that we were trying to have a good family life. If we made mistakes they were just that. We did not plan or connive to hurt others. And so though we had drama linked to the rad fledgling I think we can live with ourselves. I wasn't the best mother but I did not get up each day and plan to make her life worse.


Edited by Damaskrose (06/12/08 04:24 PM)

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#7053 - 06/13/08 02:52 PM Re: RAD or Fledgling [Re: Damaskrose]
jan36
Unregistered


Hello Damaskrose

There are some very interesting family dynamics. I recognise a lot of what you say, the strange looks I totally identify with. My partnerís kid would look at me for hours when I was reading a book or watching TV, I have been told that this is how Ps learn other peopleís reactions and expressions, itís called mirroring. (We are assuming your daughter is psychopathic which at this point is supposition as she has not been diagnosed with any disorder so we really need to be careful about making judgements.)
Psychopaths then use what they learn and apply it as though it was their natural response in other circumstances, Sometimes itís not appropriate and they get caught out in their false response.

I also understand the different persona for different people and occasions, acting seems to come naturally. I can see that her siblings would accept her for what she is, I think we all did that with our siblings and just got on with whatever went on, Children are adaptable and more resilient than we give them credit for.
What were the good times to your children remember, itís always good to focus on the positive? Being honest Ėwere those times because your daughter made them special and memorable or would the others have enjoyed themselves in the same way if she had not been there?

Being blind to a situation is understandable, how do any of us deal with something we donít understand? We keep on being positive and putting in more effort and when that doesnít work we beat ourselves up and try something different.

I know what you mean when kids like your daughter are thwarted, they hate the word Ďnoí and carry on regardless of the consequences. Punishment insensitive!

One thing you mentioned that got me thinking was your daughter telling some people she was adopted but didnít want you to tell others-yes-very much a control issue and reminded me of my partnerís kid and his bed wetting. He didnít like some people knowing like the neighbours daughter (younger than him) but was quite happy to get the sympathy vote from older people. He did not have a physical problem to avoid any doubt. He used it as an attention seeking device.

We all make mistakes, itís life, if they werenít mistakes they would be deliberate actions. I think we all say we have not been the best mothers in the world but we all do our best and that is all we can do. Hindsight is a wonderful Ďgiftí and we all look back and think we could have done things differently but what has been done cannot be undone so why beat yourself up over an impossibility.

Itís time for you now, you obviously did all you could to bring up a family to be happy and healthy. I hope you donít mind me asking but was there any reason your daughterís adoption was not openly discussed within the family as soon as she came to you?

I feel confident that you are taking a strong position and have had the blinkers removed so you will find ways of coping. You have other children who need your support and will appreciate you for what you do and who you are.

I hope you are getting the support you need.

Regards
Jan

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#7055 - 06/14/08 10:46 AM Re: RAD or Fledgling [Re: Damaskrose]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi all, since Jan has been the first to get me intrigued in all this RAD stuff. I had the opportunity to ask a Psychiatrist last week if he was familiar with RAD, he said yes, they go from RAD to (can't remember the next diagnosis so will ask again) to ASPD. He was very clear about the progression from RAD to Psychopath's. I asked if he had any RAD patients and he chuckled (not in a mean way) and said no and he wasn't recruiting any.

Di

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#7070 - 06/19/08 06:46 PM Re: RAD or Fledgling [Re: Nan]
Damaskrose Offline
member

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 54
hi jan I agree my daughter has not been diagnosed and so I do not presume to say she is definitely one thing or another. I am just trying to make sense of it. To reassure myself i did not imagine all this. I initially thought she may have npd but I read somewhere that npd and some other personality disorders do not normally manifest until teens. I believe that my daughter had issues from age four. She did not smile easily. or indeed show any emotions easily. You asked why we did not talk about the adoption when she first came to us well she had done some work with a social worker prior to placement and had a life story book and As I remember she even had a mixed race social worker especially do some work with her as it was felt she might have issues relating to her white mother abandoning her. She spoke of her mother and new boyfriend as not wanting her because she was black. She said to one other child G would like you as you are white. G was the mothers boyfriend. Quite an observation for a four year old?

We did try to talk to her when she first came. But as I said she acted very uncomfortable she did not like looking at the pictures of her mother. i think because she was grieving so much. After trying to interest her in the photo album she had with pictures of her birth family with no response, we finally just left the album in her bookcase. She seemed to want to fit in and not be reminded of her difference to the other children. I tried on occasions to talk to her but it was a no go area. Her birth mother contacted us when she was about 14 and We asked our daughter C if she wanted to talk or write to her but she would not talk to her direct but she did want to see her birth father who also contacted her about the same time. Looking back our daughter had an awful lot happen at that time psychologically she must have been in incredible turmoil. The birth mother had gone on to have other children and moved abroad. I think we should have asked them to wait and took the contact slower maybe when she was older? It may have been after repressing it for so long the reappearance of birth mum and dad on scene was too much for her to handle with everything else.

But on the surface our daughter did not let a lot show from day to day. She acted out but it was mostly undercover activities or at school. Looking back she seemed to get a thrill from hurting others without being found out. When she was younger she got found out but as she grew she became better at hiding what she was up to. She was not the in your face kind of child. in fact now I think of it she has never told me to my face she hates me or shown anger it has all been sneary comments or weird statements she tells others though. We would have arguments and i would be emotional and expressing concern etc and she would be like sarcastic but not communicating how she felt truly.
She had an uncanny knack of being able to shift the blame most convincingly on to another party. So she got away with an awful lot I think. Like a pot that simmers and then boils over that is how I see her character. She simmered for a long time until I believe she was old enough to really control her life and no longer had a need for us. This is all only my understanding of it of course.


Edited by Damaskrose (06/20/08 04:22 AM)

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#7071 - 06/21/08 09:18 AM Re: RAD or Fledgling [Re: Damaskrose]
jan36
Unregistered


Hello Damaskrose

Oh how I know how that feels! Trying to make sense of what you see going on but don't believe your own eyes and ears. How many times do we question oursleves and ask what 'we' are doing wrong to provoke these things then feeling guilty for thinking a child could behave the way the are and feel there must be something wrong with out parenting techniques.
Then we wonder if we are going crazy but there is no-one to ask to confirm we are not.

My partner's kid would not speak about his own mother after he went to live with my partner and it sounds like your daughter behaved the same way. His mother couldn't cope with him any longer and I think his behaviour started about 3 years of age and by 6 she had had enough because he was destroting her new realtionship and I think it was a lot to do with the fact she had another child, that seemed to be his trigger. I know you said the same thing happened when you had more children.

I identify with so much of what you relate, especially getting good at the covert behaviours and becoming more skillfull at it. it's so hard for outsiders to accept this and blame does get passed on. The snearing and sarcasm, the venom and the evil looks-I recognise all those things.

The only reason I asked about the adoption was because you mentioned your other children didn't know she was adopted so I wondered if she found out late in her childhood and it was a shock to her.

It's so hard to get any sort of diagnosis here in the UK but I sometimes wonder if it matters if the child gets a diagnosis or not because there is no treatment or therapy available anyway. I think we all know what the diagnosis would be if there was an opportunity of finding out though.
I really admire your courage and determination to stick by your daughter until she left home, I could never have done that with my partner's kid...it was him or me -and me leaving was the only option I thought I had but when the situation turned and the kid went back to his mother it was party time! My partner has suffered massive guilt that he could let a kid go back and live with a woman like his ex. He didn't really have a choice because the kid went of his own choosing. It had come to the point when he couldn't get anything past me, I had the full measure of him.
His mother is not too bright and the length of time they had no contact was a good opportunity to play on her symapthies and start working her over. Our positions are slightly differently as my partner's kid has no contact with us at all and I can't see that changing.

I suppose all you can do now is not give your daughter any information to use against you and to completely ignore anything she tries. If she gets nil reaction she won't get any satisfaction as she won't know whether what she has done has reached the target.

At least you are coming out of this and have your children to look after. It is interesting to hear all the things you say and I hope it helps to keep posting here.

Best regards
Jan

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