>>I have the impression that it is as if I have been in a cult ( although I haven't been). But I believe in P's philosophy, which had a tremendous influence on professional practice.<<

Recently I read a post on another N/P forum about cults. I told my counselor a couple weeks ago that I felt like I had been in a cult. I figured out the leader (the P.) and there was hell to be paid.

Almost everything I know about my business I learned from the P. He is very intelligent and very good at the business. He could make better money, but his P. stuff gets in the way. Along with learning about the business I also witnessed some unethical business practices of the P., which I chose to ignore, because at that time there was so much emotional good things directed at me by the P. I have to sort out the good and the bad and throw away the garbage. Which is very hard because the P.'s world was so entertwined with emotional and psychological brainwashing and control that I get lost angry and confused. Learning the business from the P. is not all bad. I can take the good and use it, the P. can't take that away from me. I have to find something good to come out of the last 5 years.

Remember you are not alone. I have suffered lots of PTSD the last 2 years and I felt so alone. This forum has saved my life. Really! I was so messed up from the P. that I told my counselor I should be hospitalized several times. I wasn't as that counselor pulled me through some really hard times before I found this forum.

You know, taking steps away from the P. situation seem kinda blah to me. I do have to force myself to give new situations a chance.

betterway

Betterway,

That is the problem: P, for me, was a leader. Although now I am disgusted by all these unethical pratices, or mobbing I have witness. Sometimes I think I have been trashed because I wasn't great enough, or simply because the P notice it wasn't in my nature to be nasty.I remember it started when I said I wasn't going to lie to my clients. Anyhow we sure have hit a cult P. It is hard because now when I associated my believes with the people that has carried ( as the P) I am not sure I am at the right place, more so, that the good hearted people, never adhere to those modes of operation, in fact, they tend to keep their distance as if there is some traces of the P in the philosophy and that scares me, because I always believed in it. Should we just adopt some of those practices and mix it with our good will? or should we jsut reinvent ourselves?

hopefull,

It sounds like you and I could of have known the same P. You have given me some things to think about. What do I really want or need to keep that the P. taught me? I don't like the way he treated co workers outside of his P. circle. I also experienced mobbing and trashing. The charm he used on his clients was all about greed, ego and appearances, not about being nice because he was genuinely nice or concerned. The P. is a user, abuser, liar, thief, manipulator, controller, etc. What is so amazing to me now is how he was all those things that I'm totally against and I stayed with him anyway, I supported him. It was not in my nature to be nasty either. I think it was a challenge (he loves challenge)for him to make me an extension of him. He loves to play the game of capturing the soul.

>>Should we just adopt some of those practices and mix it with our good will? or should we jsut reinvent ourselves? <<

I will do some serious thinking about this. I'm really not sure what part of the P's business philosophy is worth keeping. I know the personal part of the P's philosophy can be thrown directly in the garbage. The technical part of the business that I learned from him I will have to re-evaluate. That is what is so good about the forum, you all can help me to rethink things. Healing is definetly a process.

Take care, hopefull,
betterway

>>I am afraid if I hang up on him or am rude to him, I won't see the childsupport and or he will hate me so much that he will hurt me. Oh my gosh, I just realized that that is fueling his Narcissitic supply!!<<

During the worst time of the devalue phase I was so trapped because if I spoke up for myself it was used against me, if I tried to ignore the P. it didn't help. I was so scared to make the P hate me because I was so dependent on him that I couldn't handle it if he cut me off from his world. I took so much abuse its hard to believe. I couldn't and wouldn't leave. The P. tried to destroy me emotionally and my career. I kept staying trying to make things right, trying to make the P. see how wrong he was about me. I was definetly feeding his narcissm.

>>Their story is more believable than mine. And mine is the truth!!!!!!!!<<

I understand. The P. I know can not handle the truth. I feel that is why he takes it and twists it all around. The only thing I can do is to know the truth in my heart and to live accordingly. I didn't know the truth until I found this forum. I can only share the truth with others that have been there (here on the forum) because they are the only ones that understand the twisted world of the P. I know that I am right about the P. I can't make anyone else believe me. The P. has set up the scenario to make him look like a great person and make me look crazy. The P. even told me he can make others act the way he wants them to. Then he went and did it - to elimate me from the office. So bizzare, but he did it.

>>She is so brainwashed she believes everything he tells her but you know I still feel sorry for her because she doesn't know how bad he is yet. Even if I did tell her everything she would never believe me.<<

The P. has made me look like a emotional basket case, so that nobody would believe me if I told them what he is really about. We can't save anybody else, only ourselves. Those current targets will experience the P. to the full extent. I do also feel sorry for some of his targets. One of them is so naive and needy like I use to be. In a couple years she will be a different person. I don't believe anybody can be around a P. and not have a life changing experience.

I don't have the child support issue to deal with. However, having any loose ends with P. can be terrible. I have business dealings that I still have to talk to the P. about. Had to talk to him on friday. Not a good experience.

>>So, how do I exercise this no contact?<<
Just keep coming here and posting and reading. That is what helped me. When I found this site I didn't think I would ever be able to leave my office and get away from the P. No Contact did not seem possible. I have come along way by just reading and learning all I can. I will one day be able to do the No Contact completely, I am going in the right direction. For me right now, I try to avoid places where I know the P may be, especially with his new target (restaurants, meetings, seminars). I even have times now where I am okay if he doesn't call me and for the most part I don't want to call him. As I recover and start to have healthier thinking and distance from the P. I am able to do no contact for short periods of time and not be crazy with it. Reaching out for help is a big big step in the right direction, mindy. I hope you are able to do what is right for you and get out of P. prison. Not just physically but in our minds also.

betterway

Betterway,

Indeed we seem to have known the same P. But the P I knew was famous,glamorous, but in real he wasn't very productive. He could never do what he said he would do. So yes, he always needed some to become the extension of him to produce his works, just like yours. I am sure sooner or later he trashes everyone but it seems to me that those who are in a very high position of power aren't trashed. I am sure that somehow he keeps them a little longer. It is all a game for them, they know they play with you and they enjoy it. I remember when he was trying to hook me, he once said that he had to have my mind going.Isn't it literal?
Regarding the what part is worth keeping. I am not sure either that is what I have been thinking as well. Some days I am off another path, but it feels wrong to me, I feel I don't have as much integrity, meaning if they were some parts of the P that I adhere to it may have been genuine and I should re-assess it.
As you said healing is a process. I almost feel like making diagrams of all those things and pin them on the wall, and go through an elimination process!

>>I am sure sooner or later he trashes everyone but it seems to me that those who are in a very high position of power aren't trashed. <<

The P. is always making sure that he has a support group around him that is playing his game. The players change but the game is the same. The P. I know will trash anybody when he is through with them, nobody is more important than him, he is "special" he says. Right now he is currently sucking up to the owners wife (she is office management) where I use to work. He told me he can't treat me the way I want him to treat me because it would mess things up with the owners wife. What he really met is treating me right wasn't in the game plan. He will play her until the day he leaves. As I said in another post he is already planning his escape. She won't know what happened and that will please the P. He once told me that he likes making others wonder what he is up to. He also said "things are not as they seem". I think the P. trashes people because he is a very paranoid P. and believes others are out to get him. Well, they should be out to get him, if they know what I know about him. But he is very good at covering his bases and most people will not ever know the P. as I know him. The P. always said there is a right time for everything. He is a very patient P. and however long it takes to make the game play out the way he wants, he will wait. He will trash anybody and everything when the time is right. I have also seen the P. trash somebody really bad, and then months or years later he reconstructs the game and those people let him back in. He is smooth and plays the game to win. Well, I better go, this is getting way to long. Just blabbering about the P.

bye for now,
betterway

Betterway,

>>I understand. The P. I know can not handle the truth. I feel that is why he takes it and twists it all around. The only thing I can do is to know the truth in my heart and to live accordingly.<<

That is so true. But hard when dealing with the law. I have a good friend who works for the courts and she and her husband, who is a cop, have been helping me with all of this for the past 6 months. This weekend she told me to just get the hell out of here. To take my kids and just leave. I told her that I couldn't because of the visitation that all hell would break lose if I started disobeying the court orders. She said "Who the f___ cares!!" She was yelling at me to leave and protect my kids from him. I am tempted and have somewhere I could go to, but I am so scared!! All hell WILL break lose. He will try to find me with a vengeance and WILL find me, then if he doesn't hurt me, he will at least use it against me in court. I am so lost right now. I need advise.

Sorry, I am so absorbed right now and unable to help you or anyone else with your P's. I am in an intense situation right now.

Mindy

Mindy,

A long ago, I escaped from my ex-husband: P#1. I was scared but at one point I knew that was the best I could do for my kids. I had some friends that were screaming to me to just leave at least for 6 months. I just left. Move away. When he found out where I was, he never called but I was so far away. That has been the best I have never done, my kids were able to grow without that nightmarish relationship. Don't feel guilty for it is to safe your kids, you are not hurting anyone, you are just defending yourself. Your kids need some times off as well.
You should not think too much, just move, there will be always an answer somewhere. It may take time to find a way to survive, but you will enjoy it. Your kids have only one chance to grow right, just one time they will grow.
Were you the one that said that you have taped the conversation? If not, do so and then you will have enough proof. Just leave...
Courage, you friend may be right.

Hi Mindy,

Have I asked you before if they have DVIS (Domestic Violence Intervention Service)in your area? Where I live they are so committed to helping women that are in situations such as you are describing.

In the group I attend, there are several women whose husbands or boyfriends are threatening as yours is. They (the staff there even go to court with them). I'm not saying it's the total answer but maybe it would be a place to start. The most important thing is you and your childrens saftey.

I have been thinking about you and the way your ex is emotionally blackmailing you as well as holding you in fear of losing your child support or taking the kids away. I didn't know then what I know now, but, as I look back P#1 has done that to me ever since divorce #1 from him. It was always fear, guilt and obligation that kept me tied to him. He also took one of the girls one time and threatened to leave the state. Told me I would never get a dime from him. The details of my divorce from him were pretty unbelievable. How he manipulated the system and got everything (the material things)including the house and best car. My child support was the lowest allowed and he could have afforded WAY more. He was buddies with the judge and his attorney (I found out later) was friends of my attorney. Pestered me constantly (after we divorced) for sex. Came over and demanded it. After all the stuff he did to me I lost ALL my desire for him that way. . .every bit of it. To this day. . .still have no desire to be with him sexually. To much has happened, way to much.

Prayerfully, you can find some support. I know how much it means to me to just be learning. If I would have know then what I have learned in the past few months, perhaps I could have found the courage to get out and stay out!

I know firsthand how hard it is. I remember for me I felt like there is no way out. He was such a bully and so intimidating. Said just enough truth that I was always in fear.

I can see the P you are dealing with (I don't want to call him "your" P) is using fear tactics on you.

For many years that was the only emotion I could have named if someone asked me how I was feeling. Fear dominated and ruled my life.

>> I am tempted and have somewhere I could go to, but I am so scared!! All hell WILL break lose. He will try to find me with a vengeance and WILL find me, then if he doesn't hurt me, he will at least use it against me in court. I am so lost right now. I need advise.<<

Mindy, try the womens centers, DVIS, the rape center (I also used the rape center). If he is coming over and regularly raping you, maybe they can offer some recourse. I can tell he is terrorizing you. I will continue to keep you and your children in my thoughts and prayers Mindy.

Keep posting. . .it helps. Sometimes we find our own answers. And sometimes others can offer their support, validation and encouragement. Just don't quit. I can tell uou are in a very difficult and intense situation.

I'll be praying you can get the help you need and put the fear where it belongs. . . on him!

Finished

>>Sometimes I think I have been trashed because I wasn't great enough, or simply because the P notice it wasn't in my nature to be nasty.>>

Being trashed for the last 2 yrs has done something to me. My perceptions are all messed up. I'm suspicious of everybody I meet, wondering what their motives are. My self esteem is in need of repair. After having my heart torn apart by someone so special to me, I don't believe in close relationships anymore. I guess what I am saying is I am just in a bad spot. My counselor says it is a phase.

>>should we just reinvent ourselves?<<

I think I have to reinvent myself. I know before P. I had some really good work habits, my regular clients have always been loyal to me and send me referrals so I know I treat them right. But lately I have been doubting myself and letting things around me remind me of the P. I just can't tolerate anything that reminds me of the P. I just got to get away. And what is sad is alot of people have different aspects that remind me of the P. even though they are probably not P's. I guess I am so in tune with things, the P's constant mobbing has made me overly aware of everything. With the P. I was paranoid with good reason. With all the devaluing I became very needy to have others like me and I was trying to counteract all the trashing the P. was doing. I know I have to build up my self esteem, basicly reinvent myself.

I am beginning to wonder why would I want to hold on to anything that is associated with the P. I think I want to throw it all away. Start fresh.

The "No Contact" is helping me. I feel the loss but at the same time I feel better because I am not having the daily emotional/psychollogical battering from the P.

hopeful, I know awhile back you had mentioned how you were struggling. I understand. We have to trust we will recover and better things are in the future for both of us. I want to get better. I want to change. I don't like what my world had become.

betterway