I have a friend who has recently lost her fiance to a unexpected brain hemorrhage. She has just started dating someone who we met two of weeks ago.

He was very aggressive with everyone (well, alternated aggressive/charming), talked unbelievable nonsense, and obviously thinks he's just fantastic. At one point when my friend, trying to make conversation, mentioned that one of the other girls there makes good tiramasu, he went off into a tirade about how she couldn't make tiramasu because it's not trifle (!!?) (he's never even met her before). This girl was eventually cowering in her seat but this guy seemed completely oblivious to her, and everyone ele's discomfort.

Needless to say, we all sat our friend down and few days later to try to get her to see the mistake she's making. In this conversation, she mentioned a few things about this guy that made my hair stand on end. Years ago my sister was involved with someone later diagnosed by a psychologist as a psychopath who left her a shell of her former self. Some of the things my fried described rang a clear bell:

For example, she told of how when he was left to man the office (he's a real estate agant) he just decided to go to the pub for the afternoon, telling his boss that he went to the bank. He got back four hours later. Later when his boss called to confront him a huge shouting match ensued. After the argument he was completely unable to see that he could be in the wrong. Apparently this happens often. My friend puts it down to his over inflated ego... !!!

He's always sponged a living off everyone else. He wanted my friend to take a bank loan out with him for millions to buy a restaurant - even though he has only ever been a waiter and an estate agent (and my friend was going to do it!) - and has never even owned his own car (he gets other people to drive him around everywhere).

When my friend told him that she was concerned and wasn't going to invest with him he immediately dropped the restaurant idea and said all the right things - so she's still with him.

I've made up an excel spreadsheet of the PCL-R and even when scoring him a 0 on factors that I don't know - like his childhood and past relationships, in my very informal score he still gets a score of 32/40.


I'm very concerned for my friend...

Hello Duncan

Your friend is very lucky to have you look out for her, it doesn't sound good and maybe with your support she will see things differently before she gets too sucked in. He seems to be fitting the description of a psychopath very well but unfortunately a diagnosis is rare unless the person concerned becomes involved in the judicial system and sometimes not even then.

It's so tricky as your friend will probably accuse you of not undertanding this man if you offer an opinion. Knowledge is power but unless she looks for it she will get trampled on.

I wish you well and if your friend needs any support or just needs to ask some questions there are plenty of members here who would be happy to help wherever they can. If she has her head in the sand and deliberately avoiding issues it will be extemely difficult to point her in the right direction. It may be better if you appear totally understanding of why she wants to be in this relationship then she is more likely to approach you when the concerns creep in.

I think I probably speak for a lot of members here when I say if most of us had a a friend like you we might have avoided a lot of pain and suffering as well as losing money.

Regards
Jan

Hi Duncan,
Welcome on the forum from me also.
Reading your story left me with a coplle of questions and I hope you don't mind me putting them down here hoping for an answer?

Is the time you write about accurate?
And if so... How do you know all these things so incredable fast????
It took most of us several years , so not decades to be able to point out what is wrong with somebody...Then searching for a place to get more knowledge about it..It is ammazing how clear this all is to you. Are you a therapist yourself for knowing so much and finding your way to this forum so quickly???
Regards Segaya

Hi Segaya

Yes, the times are right. My sister was involved for years with someone diagnosed as a psychopath, so I have some experience.

At first I thought this guy was just after her money (all of us did) and a pathological lier (an arsehole basically), but then when we spoke to her about him she mentioned some things that are just odd and I remembered from my sister's experience and what the psychologist told us to look for: His extreme ego, easy at lying, everything is everyone else's fault, bafflingly irresponsible, and can't ever see he's wrong, - even when he obviously is (not making excuses for his behaviour - really can't see it's wrong - see the boss story above)

These things triggered the warning bells and I went home a researched psychopathy, finding the PCL-R. The PCL-R is a perfect description of this guy. Then I've been spending the past week researching psychopaths, and almost everything I read applies to him. Finally I've found this forum.

With my sister it took some years to discover who he was because we didn't know the signs.
Knowing the signs makes a big difference.

So here's the update:

Everything is turning poisonous. This is like deja vous. Friends are turning on each other. It was just the same with my sister - the destructive power of these people is almost unbelievable. It destroyed our family before (my parents, brother and sister), and I'm not walking down this road again.

I've done what a friend can and pointed out the warning signs and we'll be there for her at the other end of this, when she'll need real friends, but she must make her own decision, I'm pulling out before everything I hold dear is poisoned.

Does anyone else see the similarity between Psychopath's and the ring in Lord of the Rings??? I'm no Frodo

hello Duncan

It's wise to step away from this situation, there is nothing you can do and the offer of being there when things fall apart is the best option.

I have never read Lord of the Rings....for 2 reasons, one of which is to to with psychopathy!

Regards
Jan

To jan...you are funny! To segaya...I dont think it takes long for a wise woman to realize she is only goin in circles. These people are crazy, but it doesnt have to take long to notice the same song has been on repeat for days! I knew nothing about "Psychopath's" but as I started looking at the obvious, I just thought... As much as I crave this obsessive attention, I know that it musnt last for forever. Sometimes when everything seems so dark and lonely, you have to know that you closed the door to your own house and locked it. No one can come in to help you because you wont let them. Get up off the floor and turn your own lights on...turn up your heater and open the front door to reality! Dont let shame trick you into staying longer...just because you took a litt;e break from reality doesnt mean you cant make a comeback! If we can push 8 lbs babies out of that small exit... and produce food from our own bodies, certainly we can manage to take out the trash as needed! I believe in all of you and I know in time these wounds will heal!

Hello Godsgrace

I have been thinking about your posts today and there are so many things you said that I would like to respond to but it will take me some time.

I would like to start by thanking you for sharing so much information and it was so uplifting to hear that you are doing well now. It is such a positive story that I would like to talk to you about so many things.

I know what you have told us will be so encouraging for parents who have children tangled up with suspected psychopaths.

You have added a whole new dimension to this forum and I'm sure many people reading here will feel a great sense of hope knowing what can be achieved.

If you don't want to discuss your situation any further I do undersatnd.

I think your expression 'body snatchers' is perfect.

Regards
Jan

Thank you Jan for the encouragement...I hope nobody is offeneded that I write what I do, but its so important to know that no matter what you can always walk away from danger.


I know that that although I am much younger than many of these victims, and I didnt stick around to suffer years of abuse from my Psychopath I still understand what its like to lose everything senses included. But I also know what its like to gain it back and its a wonderful experience.

I hope all of us can rebuild again. please keep writing to me, I love wisdom from the wise. You seem so compationate and its a great comfort. I still have some days where I am completely pissed off at my Psychopath and I would like to drive to Las Vegas and visit him in prison and slap the $*** out of him! I have things to over still and i know its a game of patience, but sometimes I dont quite feel like being patient. But with Gods help, it will get better ans top hurting so bad inside.

Hello Godsgrace

I’m sure no-one would be offended by what you have written. I think you have done a great job of analysing your situation and putting it in words. I could sense the anger and frustration you went through. I’m full of admiration that you saw so quickly what was really happening, you seem to be mature beyond your years. I know you will be an inspiration to our members.
You have proved that there is a way out of an abusive lifestyle despite the practical difficulties. It must be so comforting to have a strong faith to support you when other people can’t offer you that. We all need to have a believe in that gives us something solid to lean on.

I don’t think crying is at all silly, it has been proven that it is a method of stress relief and more men should do it. Wallowing in self pity seems to have the same benefit when it makes you decide to fight back.

The minister certainly followed the pattern, using your home and money despite being supposedly wealthy. The parasitic behaviour. Idolising you then bringing you down, buying you gifts to buy you. The conning, lying and cheating. Addiction to porn and sex, many relationships. Ending up in prison. The only thing I have no knowledge of is the excessive list making.

I understand your desire to slap him but just imagine yourself doing it to get it out of your system, I think if he knew he had got you to such a pitch it would please him because he would have control over you and this reaction. You know you can never allow him to have that knowledge or power. The worst thing for a man like him is to be ignored or treated as an inferior and as you have no contact …just keep on ignoring him. No contact whatsoever is the golden rule.

You have come out of this relationship a very wise woman and I’m so pleased that you have made a new and better life. I was wonderful to read your whole story as it’s not often we get the story and the positive outcome in such a short space of time.

I do hope you can offer us some insight into how you saw the light and how you found the strength to deal with this nightmare.

As I mentioned I loved the term ‘body snatcher’, that’s exactly what psychopaths do! Mentally and physically they try to take you over even to the extent of becoming the person whose body they have invaded. Sometimes it’s simple mirroring but more often assuming someone else’s identity.

Regards
Jan

Hi friends in the forum:

Not too much has changed with us for the last several days. Our daughter is refusing to speak with us and seems to be mad at us for not accepting and "respecting" her psychopathic boyfriend. This of course, we refuse to do and we have clearly made this known to her. As discussed last week, she lost her car privileges because, rather than going to work as she said she would, she took the car, and went off with him somewhere for the day. As discussed earlier, we are letting her be, and not trying to force anything more at this point. Most days go by with a simple "Hello", "good morning", and not too much more. As Segaya and others have said, she will have to come to her senses by her own efforts. The best we can do is stay in the background and offer passive support. Apparently, she will be moving to her own apartment around the 1st of August.

She has known this psychopath for around 6 weeks or so now. Segaya indicated that it is remarkable how quickly we were able to recognize and deal with him as a psychopath. This is thanks to our psychiatrist who has been involved plus lots of reading and studying on the subject which added more confirmation as to who he is and how he behaves.

I would like to get an opinion on the following issue. Being that we know he is a psychopath, and my daughter is still in the clouds with this guy because of love, his manipulation, or whatever, I was planning to write my daughter a short and clear letter declaring him a psychopath and explaining why (I will indicate most of Dr Hare's points). Of course, at this stage, I expect her to disagree with the letter and reject it, nor discuss it, but my hope is it will introduce the issue into her subconsciousness and hopefully with time will raise doubts in her mind about him sooner rather than later. From her view, as much as she doesn't like it, if she knows that her parents have repeatedly indicated verbally and in writing that her boyfriend is a psychopath, and she is gradually educated as to what one is, then this can help influence her eventually. Alice (my wife) doesn't think its a good idea to write the letter and call him a 'psychopath'. She says I can identify some of Dr Hare's points in the letter, but not to explicitly call him a psychopath. I completely disagree. From other stories I read on this forum, a lot of women get sucked in and too much time goes by before they learn what a psychopath is "the hard way".

Comments form the forum ?

Regards

Ace and Alice

Hello Alice and Ace

It does look like things have way further to go before your daughter gets the full blast from this man, he is still in the manipulating/conning stage and probably doesn't give her too much to concern her yet or it is ameliorated by gushing sentiment. He may be criticising her but with the pretence of doing it for her own good. The doubts will be creeping in but she will be blaming herself for causing his negative reactions, when things get worse she will get to the frustrated stage when her intellect tells her things are very wrong but her emotions will stop her accepting what she sees. Doing something about it is way down the line.

I agree with Alice, if you write down something as final as telling your daughter what you think this man is will make her jump to his defence. This could put up a huge barrier and I doubt she would ever say "Dad-you were right." She will not accept anything you tell her although I really do see what you hope this will achieve but I'm convinced it will have the opposite effect.

Maybe you could write the letter without any mention of the word psychopath, date it and file it. If ever an opportunity arose in the future and it became appropriate you could then give it to her. This would let her know you were only concerned for her welfare and wanted no part of their relationship from the start for that reason.

I think your daughter is an incerdibly strong woman and would resent anyone trying to influence her when she believes she is right and they are wrong. Her dilemma at present is knowing you see something she doesn't want to accept but as you are knowledgeable you must be on to something. All the more reason for her to rationalise all the negative issues he raises.

I'm sure other members will respond to your last sentence and I wonder which one of them would have thanked you, when they were in the eyes firmly closed period, if you had called their 'beloved' a psychopath?

Maybe reverse psychology would have more effect. I can see you are a person who sees things so clearly and expects logical solutions but one of the facets of psychopaths is their ability to throw logic into total confusion.
You must be so frustrated knowing this whole affair should not be happening and should be finished immediatley but it's out of your hands.

Have you read the posts from one of our newest members, Godsgrace? She is a similar age to your daughter and has been through the same experience and has come through her terrible problems a very wise young woman. I'm sure she would be able to tell you some of the things you want to know, she has a very articulate way of telling what happened to her. I'm so impressed at her clarity and strength to move her life on.

I hope other members also give you some feedback on your question.

Regards
Jan

Hi ALice and Ace,
So glad to hear something from you again. And bit happpy that everything seems to go it's own way......
Ace I see your point completely..... it is the same as I would do and have done indeed...

I showed two ex girlfriends of my son the checklist of dr. Hare... And I let them do the test by giving points to eacht item... and both found him scoring as high as it can get!!!
And both were convinced he is a psychopath..
and both went on with having the relationship with him!!!!
It seems that somehow the brain doesn't grab it It has to be clear to them.. we even discussed the items together.... They gave examples of his behavior compared with and reading the checklist and still.....
I thought that when I, his mother, showed it to them, they would take it more seriously then when somebody else, who doesn't know him as well, would go through it with them...Wrong!!!
I agree with jan. Write the letter, also for your own peace of mind because that is very importend... But save it... Maybe give it to someone else who can save it for you... ( the psychologist or psychiatrist for probably she will need one of them afterwards?)
Or indeed put it in a save.

Like you I am thinking straight forward.. that is the shortest way isn't it.. But I learned that doesn't work the way we wish and want it to work at all...The human brain is living a life of it's own and at the end of the day nobody can predict how it will go on with the thinking process..
It is just logical that reading a letter like that will set her off with the idea, and then time will do it's work......
My ex- daughter in law left him 3 years ago, has 2 children from him, and still, I have to help her think ahead to protect the children... And still she can't believe and react on the checklist
She knows... But that is just not enough. It has to get in your system.
You did get it that way!, your last posting before this one showed it so very clearly. That is why I was so glad reading it for it showed to me that you were 'there'. She isn't, and it will take time for her to get there.....

I hope you get some help from our ideas about this and it will give new point of views that you can discuss together to get things clear!
love Segaya

Hi Segaya and Jan -
Thank you so so much for your letters. Alice and I read them, discussed them, and internalized them. I'm convinced now, and wont give the letter to my daughter for reasons that you have now made very clear to me. Segaya, your discussion with the 2 ex-girlfriends about proving that your son is a psychopath is amazing. How they even admitted he was a psychopath but didnt change their behavior is shocking ! What else can be done ? Truly nothing !!! I remember one of your first responses to my postings was that we will have to stand back, be patient, passively support our daughter in the background, and hope for the best later.

Meantime, for the last several days, our daughter refuses to talk to us at all. Alice spoke to her psychologist friend who told her that our daughter is not behaving from an intent to be evil and mean to us. She is trying to dictate a sense of control. (Makes sense, as I now know that a sense of control can be a big issue for anorexics regarding food.) The psychologist told us not to fight the refusal to talk, but instead to go along with it and not to talk to her, other than an occasional 'I love you' or something similar. She said there is a chance that with time, she will break down from this position and will then begin to be more communicative with us.

Anyway, thanks so much for your practical advice that you both have given. We are definitely putting it to good use.

Alice and Ace

Hi Ace and Alice,
So glad we could be of help again.
I realized this week again how great frustration can be when dealing with a psychopath. Like I told before my son was in jail again. This gives me peace of mind for then I know he can't harm anyone and he is a bit more save himself....l though I am always the one pointing out to let go and stand back with those people, last week friday I was ill again. Tired, trembling inside, weak in my knees...Couldn't do a thing!
Now I found out that same afternoon he is back on the streets again. This wasn't expected untill around the 20th of august so totaly unexpected indeed....
I didn't know.. nobody told me and still I am ill by feeling this somehow!
So it is a bit confusing now to write about this.... For I say one and feel the other....I hope you know what I mean to say?

It has to be so hard to live with your daughter in the same house and she not talking to you.... This has to give a lot of tension in the family. I just hope you can cope with that also.

How do you cope???? Can your lives go on a bit like before or is this situation in everything you do, think and feel?
Are the things you do to relax a bit working for you still?
And the conversations you have with the friend psychiatrist are good for you and do they go on on a regular basis as long as you need them to??
( do they know about this forum??? it could help them or others I mean?)

Please, when I ask questions you don't like to answer than please don't....
Stay strong and keep your heads high!
love Segaya

Hi Segaya -

Thanks once again for answering us.

I'm so sorry to hear about the trouble you have with your son. That coupled with health problems is a big burden. Do you have someone who helps you ? I think you mentioned you have another son who is 'normal'. Does he give you some assistance ? It seems to me having one or more people with whom to share your problems helps ease the problems somewhat. I can see it with myself - what helps me the most is talking with my wife, friends, and occasionally psychiatrist/psychologist and of course people like you in this forum. Some exercise, eating right, enjoying work, and last but not least having religious faith keeps me "above water". From the way you describe it, it is only "human" for you to be worried, afraid, feeling ill. I guess some days are better than others, and I hope you will be seeing better days again soon. Your story reminds me of how my parents had to deal with my late step-brother who had schizophrenia for many years. It wasnt easy for them.With the years, they somehow found a way to cope. The best times was when he was locked up in a facility or reasonably living on his own. I guess in your case you feel the most comfortable when he is in jail. As I previously mentioned, my step-brother (as well as my father) died around 10 years ago. My step-mother had a few hard years being alone after that, but she now has a partner and has been enjoying several happy and tranquil years.

There has been another turn of events with our daughter. After all the trouble with her started, I began monitoring her email. Today, I saw that she wrote an email to someone who she has wrote to in the past for advice.I'm not sure who this person is - he seems to have a newsletter that he issues and offers advice in personal matters. She told him the basic story with the psychopath. That is, 2 weeks before planning to leave for the US she met a 'wonderful and fantastic' man with whom she saw her destiny with. She found him to be 'amazing', 'more intelligent than her', etc. The first several days with him were 'fantastic and enjoyable'. She then described how her family (as well as extended family) rejected him, how she lost her car privileges because of him, etc. She acknowledged that her relationship with us has deteriorated. She then went on to say that her relationship with him began deteriorating at the same time. She says "I try to arrange times to talk to him, to meet him, etc but he disappoints me by often not being there. I have this feeling that no matter how hard I try, I cannot please him enough."

Of course, I will say nothing about any of this to her. Nevertheless, Alice and I finally have some satisfication knowing that she is seeing some problems in the relationship with him, even though she still doesnt see he's a psychopath and maybe feels guilty that she is to blame for these problems. I am also quite satisfied knowing that the psychopath was not able to visit our daughter at our home and we wanted to have nothing to do with him, which may have helped push him away somewhat from our daughter. Also, in her letter she indicated that she will be moving to an apartment in early August. Additionally, she said that she liked her new job. However, she complained that she wished she could paint, sculpt, write, etc full-time as she did for the last year while living at home. It was a year she said that made her very happy . She sees that she now has to work to pay bills, and she can no longer do this. (We all know that painting, sculpting, writing, etc full-time usually doesnt generate much income if any at all, and that being obliged to have to work is not a tragedy but something that the vast majority of us have to do on a daily basis.) This is also a good sign in my opinion - being obligated to live a normal working lifestyle. Hopefully this will discourage the psychopath even more.

Based on this, it seems our daughter has now gone from the 'euphoria' stage (manipulative/cunning) to a 'mixed' stage where some confusion has been introduced into the picture. I am curious what you think about this and what might be expected next.

Best regards and I hope you will be able to feel better soon,

Ace & Alice

To The "A team!" aka Ace and Alice

In my own opinion, being involved with a Psychopath is like an addiction. I had to weene myself away. Even now I still sometimes want to find out how long he has (in prison)or mail him pics of the baby. Even though I am married now and have a new life, I still in the back of my mind sometimes try to justify his wrong doings. This could take a lond time for her to come to terms. But when reality sets in and it will sooner or later, shes gonna feel all kinds of crazy emotions. Longing, justifying, craving, brokeness, horrified, embarassed, confused, pissed, denial, vengeful, curious as to why...atleast I can say that those are some of the emotions I felt.
Its ridiculous to watch, but to go through it is so painful and a huge reality check. When she comes out the victor as I am sure she will, hold her really close and dont remind her that you told her so, just tell her that you will always love her. I am only saying this from a daughters perspective cause it hurts like hell to be "bamboozled" like that and people dont understand the whole that can be left in your heart afterwards. good luck and and I will definately be praying for you all!

Hello Ace and Alice

I was quite surprised that you monitored your daughter's e-mails, my initial reaction was 'oh no!' but your surveillance seems to have worked in your favour and it's very positive news. I do hope this helps set your mind at rest that the tide is turning but what if she found out you had been checking up on her??? That could do some terrible damage and she could lose all trust.
I think you had a result this time but I would be very wary of doing it again as quite often you find out things you wished you hadn't.

There are a couple of comments in my last post that are now happening as revealed in your daughter’s mail:
'The doubts will be creeping in but she will be blaming herself for causing his negative reactions, when things get worse she will get to the frustrated stage when her intellect tells her things are very wrong but her emotions will stop her accepting what she sees.'

She seems to be going through this stage and progressing to the next but who knows how she will react....will she keep trying to please him or will she put her own well being first? At this time she needs to have strong self esteem and her friends around her to encourage her self preservation. Does she have any close friends whose opinions she trusts? People she spends time with that have good, normal relationships she can compare hers with? Or has she abandoned her friends and been isolated by the man so she no longer has their support?

The other comment I made-'Her dilemma at present is knowing you see something she doesn't want to accept but as you are knowledgeable you must be on to something. All the more reason for her to rationalise all the negative issues he raises.'

I think now you know what you do it will be easier for you to let her know you are still there to support her IF things go wrong, she already knows that the family are united and she is out of step in her view of this man. She can probably still rationalise this in her mind as none of you knowing and understanding him like she does but this will change. If she doesn't hear any criticism from you I'm sure she will gradually accept that you are waiting for her to come to the same conclusions. This is where the reverse psychology I suggested might fit in by encouraging her move to an apartment. She can then have whoever she wants there and you can begin a new adult relationship with her and not have to be involved with what she does on a daily basis. She can chose how to live her life and when she wants the family to visit she can keep her personal life separate from her family.

I totally agree with you that if she living in her own place and supporting herself then this man will lose interest and he seems to be doing that already. What would she have to offer him then? If there is no gain for a psychopath then they move on to the next victim, the only use she could be is if he needs a bed for the night and no-one else is available.

She is going to have a hard fall but at least you know she is aware that things are going wrong so the end of this relationship won't be a total shock to her.

One thing that wouldn't surprise me is if the relationship falls apart she may want to come home and then he MAY want to start up the relationship again.

I'm very pleased that you now have some insight into the possibility that your daughter is expecting problems with continuing the relationship. Hopefully this allows you to relax a little while waiting for all your worries to end.

Your daughter must have had a lovely year indulging her creativity so it's not surprising leaving all this behind must be difficult, do you think this is the start of the anorexia knowing she has to leave this life and be self sufficient?

It's good to know she enjoys her job in that she is still taking pleasure from something but surely she can take up a university place anytime if she decides in the future that is what she really wants to do? This time may be a steep learning curve in her life and she could carry on where she intended to go.

I do hope this lets you feel differently about the future. Segaya has such good advice and speaks with so much experience that I would value her opinions too.
I'm pleased Godsgrace has written to you from the perpective of a daughter and hope she gives you comfort that your daughter will come out of this and you will be waiting to take her back into the family.

Regards
Jan

Hi Jan -

Thanks for your last post and for all your time and energy you have invested in helping us. It, as well as Segaya, Godsgrace's inputs, make a big positive difference for us.
Let me try to respond to some of the items you raised. Monitoring my daughter's emails is nothing that I am proud of or happy doing. I've never done something like this before and I look forward to stopping it as soon as possible. The only reason for doing it is to discover info regarding he psychopath - which I had the luck of doing as I indicated in my last message. Of course I'm doing all this with utmost discretion and am aware of the trouble it could cause if my daughter found out.

Jan, I thought of you first when I discovered that my daughter saw a problem with the psychopath's seeming lack of interest in her intent to meet her, call her etc, as I remembered what you wrote regarding the evolution of a relationship with psychopaths. Sure enough, as you said, for now, she seems to be blaming herself for his apathy. And sure enough, as you said, emotionally she's still attached to him, as she continued to describe him in glowing adjectives. It seems you are keenly aware of the dynamics of these things. You asked the open question what comes next ? Acting in her self-interest or continuing to please him ? Unfortunately, last night, for the first time since all this started, she didnt come home. I'm not sure where she was was but it was with him somewhere. Alice called her in the morning and asked why she didnt come home. She indicated that she had no way to get home late at night . Alice said that if it happens again we can always pick her up. (Note how the psychopath doesnt make the minimal effort to drive her home.)

Regarding her friends, unfortunately she has become very isolated. This actually began 6 months ago, and I believe is more the result of the anorexia, which is a known side-effect. Still, it seems to have become more complete with the psychopath in the picture.

Your comment "She can probably still rationalise this in her mind as none of you knowing and understanding him like she does but this will change. If she doesn't hear any criticism from you I'm sure she will gradually accept that you are waiting for her to come to the same conclusions..." is a morale booster for me. After the discovery of her letter, I feel much less obligated as a good parent to criticize her relationship with him since I can see there is something thats disturbing her.

Jan, you and others have mentioned that she could have a hard fall if her relationship ends. Of course, her family, and extended family, will all be there for her.

Her job is indeed a bright spot for her, and she even continues to volunteer once a week in a local hospital where she is teaching an art class to some patients. Her year of creativity was on the one hand something she very much enjoyed, but due to her relative seclusion on the other hand, seemed to trigger the anorexia and exposure to the psychopath. Her realization that for now she has to work to soon pay rent, food, utilities, etc is as I said earlier, a good thing and I believe (1) a deterrent to the psychopath (2) gets her back out into having more contact with people. I have no doubt she can excel in any university program later on (while studying for the entrance exam for her earlier plans to study in the US, she was scoring in the top 1% in the math part in practice tests !) She knows, as our other daughter knows, that we will gladly finance any academic activities they pursue.

Godsgrace's remark about a sense of being 'addicted' when involved with a psychopath struck a nerve with me. We have noticed, and some others as well, that our daughter seems to be in a 'spell' with this guy, and she is fundamentally not the same person we once knew. But as Godsgrace indicated, this too will end, the only question is when.

All in all, I cant say that we are feeling 'good' yet, but I can say that we are feeling 'better'.

Best regards to all,

Ace and Alice

(Psychopath.S. to Godsgrace: Thank you so much for your prayers, and may God bless you in all you do)

Hi Ace and Alice, did your daughter develop anorexia when she started seeing the Psychopath? Could he have told her she isn't good enough or too heavy (even though she might not be)? It could be another control factor that he has her thinking she isn't good enough and trying to keep in his good favor?

Di

Hi Dianne:
Actually, she had anorexia for several months prior to meeting the psychopath. I'm not sure what if anything he thinks or has said to her on this issue. It doesnt seem to have changed much in the almost 2 months since she has known him, although I obviously havent put her on a weighing scale to really know.

Ace

Hi Alice and Ace,

I do feel you are beginning to detach now that you know you daughter is beginning to have doubts and needs to ask the advice of outsiders. It's a good thing she is asking advice and do you know if she is getting any feedback? This is the time she should be talking to the friends who really know her and see the change in her personality. I fully understand your need to check her e-mails as a way of finding out what is going on and it is done out of concern not for any other reason.

I'm pleased that the little I can offer is helpful for you. I have spent many years with a fledgling psychopath and saw how the behaviour progressed so I have some first hand experience but I've also spent more years studying the condition trying to make sense of it. I want to use this experience rather that just feel angry and impotent otherwise it is a wasted experience without a positive side.
So many people who write of the forum tell the same stories about how their relationship was carried oot with a psychopath and the similarities are staggering. I have heard the expression 'under his spell' so many times.

I wonder what lead up to your daughter not coming home? You mentioned the man could not bring her home, did you ask her why he couldn't? As an intelligent woman she must have asked herself this question and have a prepared reply/excuse-you will know immediately. The thing that hit me at this point is -is this man married??? Often a pychopath will embark on a relaltionship with a new victim before disposing of the old one to make their life easier and finacially and/or physically transfer from one to the other.

Your daughter sounds as though she is still the person she was to an extent in that she enjoys her work and is sharing her talents by teaching. She has not gone past the point of no return by any means so I hope she hasn't gone very far so doesn't find it a long journey back to the family. She 'had' to rebel against you as she felt you had no understanding of the man she loved but where does she go from here now the doubts are creeping in??? I think now is the time to show her some sympathy then she will know you are there for her despite her attitude.

I do so hope she does come back from this trip soon and without damage, she has a wonderful, useful life ahead of her and is so lucky to have parents who are waiting in the background without being critical of her and trying to guide her through what could be the worst point in her life. Things will get better.

Regards
Jan

Hi Jan -

Your last post seems to be right on the mark. I suppose your experience and observation in these matters makes you quite qualified to offer valuable advice. If your objective is to do something positive with what you know I can definitely say you have been a big help to us all. I recently heard a very nice phrase "we should all try to turn the lemons into lemonade in our lives" and you are setting a fine example of this.

For sure, I'm becoming more detached now which is good. Six weeks ago I was breaking out into cold sweats, couldn't sleep at night, had trouble concentrating at work etc. That's not happening anymore.

I honestly don't know what made are daughter not come home yesterday. Recall that for the last week or so she is refusing to talk to us. My-brother-in-law was able, somehow, to find out a few details about the psychopath. I'm not sure how he did it, but he is very intelligent and resourceful, so I trust his information. The psychopath's ID number, official address, names of his parents and their address are now known to us. Also, he is single, aged 33, and has no criminal record. I was somewhat relieved to hear he has no criminal record. On the other hand, I have read that some psychopaths are clever enough to never be caught when engaging in illegal activities.

Regarding showing sympathy to our daughter, unfortunately she still seems to be in the rebelling stage with us. A few hours ago, following up on events from last night, Alice sent an SMS message to our daughter simply saying "We are concerned about your well-being". She replied with "I cant get any spiritual support from you. If you want to help, you know my bank account number". This reply seems to be almost dictated by the psychopath. This psychopath tries to come off to our daughter as a person of high spiritual character (which I find rather amusing since he's violating many if not most of the 10 commandments big-time). Regarding money and psychopaths, well, that relationship has been discussed far and wide on this forum. Remember, our daughter has rarely asked us for money in the past.

Anyway, Jan, your last sentence "Things will get better" is a big boost for us. Many people try to encourage us with similar words, but coming from you and others on this site, who really are qualified to talk about psychopaths and those involved with them, is an added encouragement.

Regards
Ace and Alice

Hi Alice and Ace,
One year ago there was something going on between my oldest and youngest son...And I didn't have a clue.
As you probably know I didn't see my family since I run from home when I was 16.
This means not only that I was very lonely trying to raise the children, but also that I didn't have any extendid family to comfort them.
I know my oldest son is always blaming me and so I have to be a bit carefull with what I do concerning the youngest one. I mean, my youngest son is intellegent and also living with his father.And the dad + stepmother don't like me and on top of that the gossip spread by my oldest can do a bad job towards me...
So that measn he ( my youngest) doesn't know me as well as I like him to know me..No daily basis and so on. ( he went to live with his father years ago because I was to ill to take care of him)
Now , last year I felt something was going on and because my oldest son was in the picture it didn't promise to be very nice.
Well,on sunday the word came out. The oldest was homeless again and waiting for a house that the local government should give him in a week or two. He came with my youngest to ask if he could live with me for those cople of weeks..(he is still homeless)
I looked at my youngest and knew I had to say yes. NOT for the sake of my oldest son, but somehow I had to show my youngest that I am their mother and will help when needed....
I can't explain very well, because this is purely based upon a core feeling. I HAD to let my oldest son spend time in my house...for thedake of the yougest.
On top of it all he ( oldest) insist that his girlfriend came to life with me also..Ppff well I won't go into detail but take it from me..She is as terrible as he is...
My oldest claimes he has a bussness of his own... ( window cleaning) and needed my computer for his administration...
One night his account was still open after he went to bed...
As you, I would never ever look at the personal pages of someone elses acount but now I did...
Dealing with a psychopath means you have to be always one step ahead at least...
Well, I again will spair the details but what I found made me sick... Untill today I can't host my forum for incest and sexual abuse people from the heart because I still feel so ashamed by what I have found....Beginning of august this will be one year ago.
I tell this to give an example of why I think ( and that is just me) that there is no reason just like that to go into somebody elses account, but circumstances sometimes make it necessary to do this sometimes... But the exception has to be chosen very carefeully.
So I do understand why and how.

I think also you and Alice are not only wise ,but also very honest people so this will not have felt like fun at all to do. it brought you a bit of peace of mind. But don't celebrate yet!!!
Your daughter just took a baby step towards questioning this man and the relationship. The most importend thing you learned from reading these things is that she does care that the relationship with you and her mother is bothered by all of this. THAT is soooo very importend!!!.....
This can give a little bit of courage for both of you, but it still can take months before she really understands what is going on.. And after that she will be wondering and going through al kinds of emotions for she is too intelligent to just step over it. It will be like she will question all of her existens for he brought chaos all ove. She probably will questionher own sanity for she went on with him while everybody else saw him for whom he really is!
(please show her this forum at that moment for se will need it!)
So there is a long way to go still, but..... the start is there and now we have to wait how fast she develops from baby steps to crawling and walking, but it will take time....
Ohh how great that we don't have to do a thing to make the world go round and let time do it's job properly.... For it will come and this will go... And then there will be the rest of her and your lives to enjoy.
So keep taking care of yourselves and her and of course the other daughter..take a deep breath and relax, for the time you will need a lot of strenght is coming no matter what!

love Segaya

Hi Alice and Ace,

I am very glad for you both that you are getting the wonderful support and insight from the members. And especially glad that your daughter is making progress.

Much of what I think has already been posted so I only have a couple of thoughts I'd like to share in addition.

Members have spoken about the entrancement or bewitchement. And I know this. It can be very difficult to hold onto a sense of clarity and all kind of boundaries can become blurred. It is very easy to start acting in ways that do not display the normal limits we might otherwise live within. It is very easy to do; to find ourselves fighting fire with fire, almost, in desperation to regain some sense of normality. That said, from my experience it is critical we do our utmost to maintain the normal boundaries and to operate from the hightest standard as much as possible. Only by upholding these and sticking to these limits can we expect things to change.

I can understand the steps you have taken by reading your daughter's email. However I personally felt very uncomfortable that the details of what she wrote were made so public without her awareness. Obviously it is important we feel able to share here whatever we wish - that is our own to share. However the fact she had not given her permission to do this made me feel embarrassed and uncomfortable. These were details she had not intended to share with you, let alone have you then share them with anyone else, including us.

I also felt very uncomfortable for her that her trust in you may become compromised - however justfied it may seem. She needs to know she really is safe with you. She needs to know that things are as she trusts them to be. Without deception or ambiguity. From anybody. Things need to be as transparent as possible. It would be dreadful if she learned things were not as secure as she thought, and then something went wrong with this man and she didn't feel she had anywhere 'safe' to go. I'm talking about two different types of safety here, obviously.It would be terrile if she needed you but having found out you had gone into her private space, then didn't feel able to turn to you for help.

If it had been this man in my house, then I can understand taking the step you did, and may well have taken the same measures. However it was your daughter in your home, who is not a psychopath. Also it seems she is making progress. And you have already set out boundaries against him. So frankly, I can't really understand it. As I said in a previous email, however hard it may be, please try to keep a focus on the relationship you have with your daughter. Because in the long term this is what is most precious and will most suffer by any short term behaviours we may exhibit in efforts to change this situation. Once this man has moved on there will only be the two of you to face each other and the consequences of how each has treated the other throughout. Trust is the bottom line and I cannot think of anything that needs preserving in these types of situations more than this. No matter how tempting it is to use whatever means available to get one up on him, please try to remember her. She is her own person and will likely appraise this entire situation one day in terms of who respected her intergrity and individual selfhood. Who most affirmed and respected her boundaries and her self. Who most trusted her ability to get through this. Do you really trust her to sort this situation out for herself? Because at the end of the day she is an adult and only she can draw the bottom line for herself with him. All we can do is maintain our own intergity and protect our own security, in the meantime. I appreciate it may be hard to do, but try to see it from her point of view. Whatever this psychopath is doing, he isn't entering uninvited into her most private spaces. The more she can be shown you trust her, you respect her and believe in her capacity to act from her better good, all the better for her. It would be terrible if, out of fear of this man, the trust and safety of your relationship with your daughter was damaged.

Best wishes to you both!

Sapphira

Hi Alice and Ace

I sometimes feel like Pollyanna, always looking for the good in everything but I prefer your phrase ‘lemons into lemonade’. Thank you for your kind words, it makes it all worthwhile spending time with others looking for a way to solve their problems and to give comfort from advice and experience. The good thing about discussing things on the forum is it allows other members to state their views on the matter which can be quite different or can confirm an opinion. I think it is good to consider all aspects of a situation rather than just a one sided view.

We all have different ways of dealing with things and we do what we feel is right for us and maybe in the future when your problems are behind you then you may offer your experience and support to future members with a similar problems. We do rely on members who have first hand experience to share what they have learned to promote knowledge of psychopathy. It is a condition that is totally misunderstood and mostly un-diagnosed unless the person gets involved with the legal system. There are few places to go to get information that is grass roots and honest, most professionals have not lived with a psychopath so the advice they give is from books. A lot of what they advise is unrealistic, impractical or just not right in our particular circumstances. Your psychiatrist sounds much more realistic.

That is wonderful news that you have so much information on the man but not having a criminal record means nothing. He may just be a con man which I feel is worse because he may have swindled many people and got away with it because the victims are usually willing participants. This man may not be married but he could well be in another relationship or living in someone else’s home. What do you intend to do with this information?

I had to smile (not a smile of pleasure) at your daughters words ‘spiritual and bank account’ in the same sentence. Doesn’t that speak volumes? It’s as though this man has programmed her mind to speak his words. I wonder if she actually wrote that text herself? IF she did I also wonder if she would re-read it and see the conflict in her words.

Segaya is right that time is all that can be relied on now. It’s so hard being like ships that pass in the night, I know-I lived like that but it is a way of dealing with the present. If your daughter lives at home with no conflict, no criticism and given kind words and smiles then she has little to rebel against. If the boundaries are set for the good of the family as a unit then they cannot be objected to and if the boundaries need changing then it should be a group decision. I get the feeling her attitude does not provoke any negative reaction from the family which is great that you can do that.
Maybe should does see that the family is a constant and nothing has changed there, that she is the one who wants to change the dynamics.

I’m so pleased my words of encouragement help you get through this, I went through a terrible time with the kid from hell and just could not see a way out. I thought I would have to sacrifice my relationship with his father but a solution turned up totally unexpectedly, one that I could never have predicted or engineered. I can now look back on that time and the whole problem is in the past, all that is left is experience. The positive result of that is any learning adds to your personal knowledge.

You will get there too and hopefully the positive result will have an even stronger relationship with your daughter because you stood by her when she behaved so badly. Nothing could shake your love for her and she will be so relieved when she opens her eyes that you are still there with open arms.

Small steps…good words...it means things are moving forward.

Regards
Jan

dear ace and alice...

it is a soul addiction and its so heavy to bare alone. I justified my love and loyalty to my "Prize" to my friends and family as well. They were wrong and i was right and they didnt wanna see me happy. The pastor in my story, was the Psychopath's mother and she is just as nutty, had me convinced that my family was plotting against me and to stay far away from them. Theres a good chance that he will have her thinking the same way and then thats when the confusion sets in. I wrote before saying that I lost all kinds of weight and started punishing myself, thinking I wasnt being a good woman by doubting him. Just believe in the love you have given her, and she will remeber it. Being in a relationship these days is so much different than it was twenty years ago because unfortunately this new generation doent have the patience and dedication to long term anything. In your situation thats a good thing because this spell shes under will wear off. This generation of younge adults is filled with narcissistic personalities and we all know that most N's have very short attention spans. until next time...

Hi Alice and Ace,

I find it hard to convey what I intend in parts, in words. How different to paint a picture. In complete silence all that desires to be 'said' can be. All that can been 'seen' is available. So I have thought long about what I am trying to say to you about your situation and have finally found a 'picture' which I trust will communicate my intentions clearer. if it is no help to you, then for my own peace of mind, at least.

A river, a riverbank and a swimmer. The river is normally peaceful and safe but, as happens in Spring, every now and then is given to flash floods, but thankfully not very often. When it does come it tests both the swimmers who by Fate or Timing are in the water at that time, and the riverbank more than either normally expects to be.

Spring arrives and those inclined to adventure take to the water. Suddenly the flash flood arrives. Will she be able to stay afloat in the stream until the flood has passed. Will she be able to make it back to the river bank until it passes? Or if she is carried away by the flood, and is able to remain above the water, will it take her too far from the safety of the riverbank and faraway out to sea? This is the test for the swimmer.

And this is all that the riverbank can see. The questions and no certainty of an answer. What is he to do? He too has his test. Will the riverbank be able to hold firm to his boundaries and keep the water out as the flash flood comes storming down?

Will he provide the water a channel, without resistence, so that it can flow on by as soon as possible? Will he practise self containment, hold himself together, and stay firm in his essence? Or will he become soft with himself, turn to mud, and become indistinguishable from the water that will become mud just like him?

The riverbank cannot suddenly teach the swimmer how to swim or how to manage herself in this unusual current. She cannot see what is happening as he does from the side of the river. It is her test to learn this for herself, from where she is. And the riverbank has a different test, but one equally important. The riverbank can greatly affect the situation. If he lets slip his boundaries, with himself or the water, the swimmer will then have to contend with fast swirling mud. And there will be no clear riverbank. If she makes it back to shore will it then be too soft for her to climb up on? Then what is she to do?

So however powerless you may feel in this situation in some ways you may have the greatest power of all. Because you can see what the water is, what the swimmer faces, and many potential dangers. "No response" with psychopaths is a lot, I think, about keeping the boundaries in tact so we have no 'loose bits' hanging out and they can only slip on by. They are a force of nature and will always behave the same way. Just in a different way from what we are used to. Learning about them you are seeing this. So the fear and panic and intimidation does not need to be a constant for you. By keeping him out and not allowing any roots from your own inner embankment to protrude for him to cling to, the difference between your own nature as waterbank - observant, calm, stable, strong, dependable - will reman very distinct from the chaotic, frightening, swirling flash flood. Let yourself out or let him in you and he will both become mud. How much harder it will be then for your daughter.

The flash flood takes us by surprise. But by accepting the nature of its ways you can be comforted by, and draw upon, the strengths of your own nature. Certainly this is no guarantee of the outcome for your daughter, but it will certainly provide the best chance in the only way your really can, in the circumstances.

I hope this picture clarifies what I have been trying to communicate. While this situation is oviously so very difficult for you, I find it hard because it reflects my experiences, at times eerily so. What I most wish you to know is that I see how powerfuless and frustrated you may feel, about things you can not change. But I also see your strengths and the difference you can actually make. Really there is much you can do, though in a sense it may entail doing very little.

As always, my best wishes to you both.

Sapphira

Dear Sapphira,
Thank you so much for this thought!!!!
As you know I told also that last year I went on the account of my oldest son..I normally would never do that. I found things indeed!!!Uptill today it shockes me...But.....It doesn't feel good, not only for what I foúnd but also for what I did. Ofcourse it is still true that with a psychopath in the hosue you have to be so very carefull...
This made so very clear for me WHY I didn't feel good about it.There was so much to justify what I did
It is just not me.. not who I am and not want I want to be.
At the time I spoke with a few people about what I had done..(without telling in detail what I found.. And they all thought it was oke because he is the one who is wrong...But the thing you write about not having clear anymore who is the riverbank and who the mud...O..You answered a question that I couldn't answer for over a year. So thank you for making my mind find peace again!
Extra pinky hugs for you my friend!!
Love Segaya

Dear Segaya,

Thank you for your comments too:) It means a great deal to me that you understand what I am trying to say. There are so many layers to these experiences, and so much to learn. Such a process, which of course takes time. And it is really easy when the bounds of normality start to slip, to fall into the vortex of drama and high energy. As children we have no choice about that. As adults we do. But the lines can shift so suddenly and or so far with psychopaths, it can take time and be incredibly difficult to regain our composure. This is so understandable and I do think is part of the process.

The only way I found I could counter this, and not slide down the slippery slope, was to work hard to learn what I really value in myself and hold on to this. I remember reading once that people get into relationships because of what they hope they will become. They get out of relationships because of what they actually do become. With psychopaths it can be extremely difficult to get out of the relationship. So all we can do is to hold on to ourselves, and make sure we chose carefully what we allow ourselves to become, in the process. I think this is the test, essentially. If, as a result of our encounter with a psychopath, we find we have become something other than what we respect in ourselves, then they have won...And we can not blame them for that.

You know, I have to smile to myself in a way, because we have been away from our families for so long and can say we have survived, and look, still we are learning. It's makes me happy.
Lots of love to you!

Sapphira

Hi Sapphira -

Your symbolism in the nice story you wrote about the swimmer, the flooded river, and the riverbank is quite appropriate. We being the riverbank have to maintain our composure as much as it is tempting to melt away and be part of the storm. Our daughter needs to know that we are who we always were and hopefully will stay that way going forward. As you may recall, the last 2 weeks or so, our daughter hasn't talked to us. Following Alice's friend the psychologist's advice, we are fulfilling her wish of not talking - not forcing any discussion on her. We go through our daily routine as best we can although its a strain.

Jan a while back modeled the steps in a relationship with a psychopath. Initially she says, as I recall, there is a period of euphoria, followed by emotional confusion yet an unwillingness to leave the psychopath. Following that, there is mental recognition that the relationship isn't right, followed, hopefully, by proper action. It seems that our daughter is now clearly in step two. Three days ago, she wrote an email letter to an acquaintance to whom she confided that she was having emotional problems with 'her parents and her boyfriend'. The acquaintance apparently gave her a lot of advice, although its not quite clear what the advice was since most of it was verbal, but our daughter indicated she appreciated the advice. The acquaintance, after a number of email exchanges and a couple of meetings, apparently expressed some romantic inclinations toward our daughter. However, our daughter answered back, via email, that she wishes to maintain a relationship of advisor/advisee and not a romantic one. She declared the psychopath as still being her boyfriend although she acknowledged that there are problems. She then said that she found the psychopath to initially have been an "awesome and amazing person" and hoped this relationship could be restored accordingly. Although I'm not 100% sure, it seems our daughter has spent very little if any time with the psychopath over the last few weeks. I'm not sure how much they speak on the phone though. Jan, during the initial period of euphoria, what is it that the psychopath is so capable of doing ? I'm still horrified how our daughter, after just 48 hours of knowing him, declared she could see herself spending the rest of her life with him.

Now that I know so much more about psychopaths, I cannot assume that the worst is behind her (and us) - he could be manipulating her from a distance and pop back into the picture at any moment. But lets hope that he is truly losing interest in our daughter as some in this forum (and our psychiatrist) have predicted might happen.

As far as we know, our daughter is also scheduled to move to an apartment in a week - which could change the dynamics once again. Her eating habits have not changed either which remains a constant worry. I'm curious if she will feel more comfortable eating properly in her own environment.

Only time will reveal what will happen to our open questions and concerns. For now, we must remain the quiet, non-changing, yet supportive "riverbank" we our supposed to be.

Best regards to all,

Alice and Ace

Hello Alice, Ace and Godsgrace

I also thought Sapphira's analogy about the riverbank and the flood was perfect to explain the situation. She has so much experience and is able to verbalise thoughts, feelings and emotions in a way I find impossible. Being the constant, strong piece of land gives your daughter the safe place to climb on for security. It is interesting that she has not spent much time with the man recently, it could be because he is not getting anything from you and she is of no further use to him or he might even be on the lookout for the next host to support his parastic behaviour. In either case she will not be able to revive the relationship unless he wants to and the only reason he would do that is if he has something to gain. Can you think of anything she could provide him with? I thought about the car issue when your daughter didn't use it for work....could the man have used it to make out it was his to fool someone? You mentioned that when you first met him he had a car...do you know if he owned that car or could it have been a prop? Why doesn't he bring your daughter home like the night she stayed out all might? Does he really own a car? Can you do s a credit check on him?

Your question about what a psychopath is capable of doing in such a short space of time is something I have little experience of but there are many other members of the forum who could probably give you more insight. I think Godsgrace would be able to tell you a lot about this and she has the advantage of being a similar age to your daughter and would relate to your desire for insight from a parent's perspective.

So Godsgrace, I hope you are reading this and can offer your knowledge, you have come through a terrible, traumatic experience and are able to see so clearly what happened to you and I know you would want this experience to be used to help others. I would like to ask how your mother coped with watching and waiting for you to see what was happening to you and did she try to intervene? What was it that made you turn to her when things got so bad? I hope you can answer some ot these questions for us.

I will be interested to see what the other members can tell us asd there must be so many variations on the same theme.

Regards
Jan

well, i have two mothers...my natural mother who i ran to in atlanta and my adoptive mother here where i live. My adoptive mom had taken sides with the kids dad and was not at all emotionally available for me. I held a grudge with her for housing my abuser with a high paying job and no bills to pay. I had the four kids and rent and utilities and daycare costs and gas and work and school...so our relationship is just now getting better. My other mother didnt know what was going on until i told her that i needed to get away.
my adoptive mother is not at all sympathetic and doesnt understand the emotional toll it took on me. She made insensitive comments like get over it and why cry about it you wanted it. Unfortunately the pastor of our church was Psychopath's mom and she told me to always go to her. It was a hard and confusing time for me but it got better. I think my mom was really mad at me because she didnt understand how I could turn away from everybody so easily. A Psychopath will encourage you to do alot of stupid things, but eventually thier motives become transparent and the spell wears off. more later...I have an unhappy baby right now...we all know how that goes!

Hi Ace and Alice,

It takes a very strong and brave heart to be still at such times. All one can ever do is one's best, and it's clear you are. Your daughter is very fortunate to have parents with hearts such as yours.

Your wondering made me think of some things once said to me. That 'rebellion' in a child is really a child testing how a parent will react. Of course with no idea of what their parents may be facing, the child will simply look to see how they have handled it. And there's a very particular way children, especially bright and principled children, will judge their parents, don't you think? So we try to be like the parent duck, gliding along looking calm and serene on the surface, while paddling like heck underneath:)

Children in rebellion seem to go go after the very opposite (in a person or situation) of what they are hoping to find (in their parent). Behind the whole process is a deeper question: "If I do this, how are they going to handle it? Are they going to allow the world to fall over? Because if they can't handle it, then how am I supposed to?"

In an age where men are so often encouraged to be 'more like women', the role of the 'strong silent type' has been simplfied and underappreciated. Sometimes it's good for a man to be 'a rock'. This guy can certainly talk up a storm. And he may serve her 'rebellion' or testing. But she's smart, and he's probably not what she really wants. If he is a psychopath he will follow the path of least resistance because making a sustained effort without reward is simply not a part of his nature. All you can do in that regard is what you are doing. Remain as serenely detached and non-responsive to any provocation as possible.

And you know, I think that after a while of seeing you comport yourselves with dignity and serenity and quiet assurance - while paddling like heck underneath - your daughter will eventually 'get it'. Once she sees you have settled on a response with such high standards she will realise that the lesson is over. If she then continues as she is, her conscience will likely kick in. And this is the one thing she has that, if he is a psychopath, he does not. At this point, when she knows you really are above fault, so to speak, she may finally start to see the real difference between this man and her parents. She may also see this is the essential difference between this man and herself. And then she will choose which she really wants for herself. Given her upbringing, and her own intelligence, chances are she will choose herself. The more you can retain your composure the quicker she will see him for what he is, in contrast. Someone also said to me years ago, that one doesn't go after after children, one tries to draw a child to oneself. I think it's true. When the chips are down, children who have known any degree of stability will return to the calmest point.

And regarding her eating: it is hard to predict. Her 'not eating' means something particular to her. It reveals something very particular about her Self. Your daughter sounds essentially like a very private person. I wonder if it may have something to do with this side of her nature, given some of the things you have mentioned, like her withdrawing to write, being so artistic etc. So when she has that privacy of her own apartment she may well eat. Please excuse the analogy, but it reminds me of feeding wild cats - and feeding can be a bit of a 'wild' issue. If you give them food and stand to watch they never come and eat. The longer you wait for them to come to the food the more likely they just won't. But if you put the food out and leave alone them soon enough, they will come and grab the food and run off to eat in private. I wonder if this rings true for you at all.

Very best wishes to you both,

Sapphira

Hi forum -

As the days go by, it now seems our daughter's problem with anorexia is taking on greater urgency. She's losing more weight and looking much more unhealthy on a daily basis. As you recall, she refuses to discuss the subject at all. In fact she refuses to discuss anything at all, except for her demand that we be apologetic and be more forthcoming financially, being that she plans to move very soon. I spoke yesterday with the family doctor, inquiring about prospects for treatment including as a last resort eventual forced hospitalization. She said all these are possibilities, but that our daughter has to take the first step and talk to the doctor. She says it doesn't have to be a heavy conversation, but some assessment has to be made. If she cooperates, outpatient programs are available, leading to recovery. I told her up until now she refuses to deal with this in any way whatsoever. The doctor then indicated that anorexia can become life threatening, resulting in death. Later, I spoke to the psychiatrist, after about a month or so since last speaking with him. I briefed him on what has been going on for the last month. He agreed that the issue with the psychopath could very well be receding now, but that we still have obvious problems with our daughter. He said our 2 main challenges right now are prevention of depression and dealing with the anorexia. He also said these 2 issues can be life-threatening. I told him that from what we see, it seems pretty clear that our daughter shows no signs of depression. So that leaves us with the anorexia.

Alice, after talking with some friends, came up with an original idea, which we presented to our daughter last night. We offered our daughter to pay her monthly rent in her new apartment (probably around $800 a month), with only one string attached. The condition is that she enroll in a eating-disorder (anorexic treatment) program. The conversation lasted about 60 seconds, and she went off into her room and closed the door. Although she made a face and didn't immediately say "yes" to the idea, she didn't say "no" to the idea either. Our strategy right now is simply to see that she doesn't fall into a life-threatening situation, which I believe could happen if our daughter does not change her eating behavior. If we have to "buy" her out of her situation, so be it. The payment of the rent will cause her economic situation to ease up significantly as she will be able to live more comfortably on her salary. How much the psychopath will be involved, if at all, in any of this, we don't really know. But the situation now is such that our daughter's health must be preserved at all costs, everything else is second priority. If she agrees to the offer, this I hope will bring some immediate relief to our well-being - the last few months have been torture for Alice and me both with the psychopath and with the anorexia. Of course, we would pay the landlord directly rather than giving her cash, for the obvious reason that the money should not be jeopardized by misuse either directly by our daughter or handed over to the psychopath. Also, the offer is ongoing. She must continue to participate in the program in order to continue to get the monthly rent. In past posts I indicated we were planning to take a tough stand on the car, offers of money, etc. so that we wont be manipulated. But again, this has become potentially a life-threatening situation which causes us to change our stance. Sapphira's comment that our daughter possibly could start eating better anyway once she moves out, in a way similar to that of some cats who when given their privacy, lap up the milk and tuna fish may very well be valid. But thats a maybe. Her situation is serious enough that we must intervene on this if we can.

A normal, clear-headed person would automatically accept our generous offer. Free rent in a comfortable apartment in town in exchange for going into a monitored outpatient eating program a few days a week seems a no-brainer. However, our daughter is living a very complicated existence and we have to see how she reacts. Should she say no to the offer, then I think her situation is very, very dire. She will in effect be saying, "keep the money - you will not force me out of my anorexia. I prefer to live on a tight monthly budget with my modest salary, maybe take on a second job as well, so long as I have free reign over my starvation habits. If I want to destroy myself, you will not prevent me." This could be her thinking (or possibly the psychopath influencing her to think this way). Should she say no, then we seem to have exhausted everything we can do for her, and may God have mercy on her.

If she agrees to our offer, optimally, things get better, the psychopath becomes history, our daughter regains her composure and eventually transitions from a dependent to independent state. Possibly things could transition to somewhere in-between. Her eating habits improve, but the psychopath is somehow still involved, and she remains in a troubled relationship with us (and with him). Even this, though, is better than not dealing with the now very-serious anorexia at all.

Lets hope and pray she agrees to our offer, and that this is a turning point for the better. We welcome any comments on this from the forum.

Regards to all,

Ace and Alice

Hi Ace and Alice,

This most difficlt situation it is very complicated, as you say, and only you are close enough to be able to judge for yourselves the best course of action. We can offer perspectives on what you post, and that is all, apart from lots of best wishes and encouragement for your efforts. As you may realise you have the thoughts of many members with you all. You can only do your best, which you are, and we are right behind all your efforts. And as you say, may there soon be a turning point for the better.

Many thoughts and best wishes to you both.

Sapphira

Hi Alice and Ace,


I was reading your last postig and I do feelsomethign... it is no t a nice feeling but because I am very tired I can't put my finger on it yet..So will you give me some time to think it over ?....
I will come back soon to write more about my thoughts oke.
In the mean time, like Sapphira said, we are all there with you with our best thoughts!
Segaya

Hello Alice and Ace

I see what Sapphira is saying and maybe we both think the same thing….that your solution to finance the apartment with the proviso isn’t something we would have come up with. (Sorry Sapphira if this isn’t what you felt.) If it works then great and from what you say it seems as though your daughter is considering the offer.

The reaction seems quite positive so let’s hope this is a turning point. The anorexia could do long term physical damage and the man could do long term mental damage so neither situation is good but hopefully time is on your side with both. I understand both have only been happening short term and not long enough to have a long term affect.
I know very little about anorexia but wonder if like alcoholics, anorexics have to hit rock bottom before they pull themselves back and they have to come to that conclusion on their own. The longer an interest is taken in the person by trying to help or control them may prolong the problem but I need evidence of this to know if it works this way.
The issue of depression complicates matters but as your daughter enjoys he work it is not the issue it could be as that is one area that is affected quite quickly. A very depressed person does not find pleasure in anything.

As things stand your daughter is increasing the attention she gets from you in proportion to the amount of weight she loses so could it possibly be a way of keeping your attention? I really don’t know about this so maybe other members have more experience. I suppose you will see more clearly when she moves to her new apartment….maybe she will invite to dinner in her new home??? Once she is independent would it be possible to have an arrangement to have a family meal together once a week alternately at your place or hers to catch up with what has been going on?

When my older sister left home to go to university it was a turning point in our relationship and we went from bickering siblings to close sisters and have been close ever since, not once falling out. After a week away she asked me to come and stay in her flat and looked after me like never before and your daughters will probably be the same. Out parents didn’t interfere and with hindsight they must have been delighted we worked out our relationship for ourselves.

I suppose times have changed because she left home at 18 years old and so did I 2 years later and at that age we were both over confident and cock sure we wanted to be independent. Perhaps a few years after this we would have been much more cautious.
Now young people can’t afford to move away from home OR it could be too comfortable so it is delayed a lot longer and that confidence wanes.

I do wish you all well and hope things show signs of improvement soon.

Regards
Jan

Got it, and still tired but want to share it anyway!!!

hwahw I forget even to say hello again.

I wonder..what is the reason before why you stopped the financis towards your daughter? This was because of the psychopath wasn't it???

When giving her money for the rent it is the same thing or isn't it....Maybe I don't understand it correctly but seen from that point of view;
Psychopaths,as you both know well by now, are always out to get what they want.isn't it the one way, they will get it the other way...
When you give her money for rent..even when you pay it yourself to her landlord, it means she is having more money to spent of her own isn't she????? And this is what you were afraid of wasn't it?
So ...Paying the money for her rent is the same thing as giving her money directly and he can get it from her anyway?

I am sorry when this isn't clear. Even writing in my own language is not very great at the moment so I hope you understand what I am saying and think it over once more????

When I understand it wrongly then just consider this posting vanished.
Love Segaya.

Hi Jan,

There is much in what you say. You previously mentioned Anorexia and addiction and I mentally nodded at the time, but didn't think to post, that I do agree with you.

Like any addiction there is 'addict' and 'co-addict', and the power struggle between the two over the addict's behaviour is what fuels the situation. The resentful addict usually plays 'resistor' to the rightoues 'coercer' who tries to get the addict to stop the self destructive behaviours 'for their own good'. The sooner each party can 'return to their own corner' and acknowledge and address their own particular dynamic the better. As you say, they can only do this for themselves. It's really tragic with anorexia because the addict is usually at far greater risk than the co-addict and they keep pushing against and resisting each other because they are essentially both addicted. Yet it only takes one party to refrain from their role - the coercer to step back or the resister to engage (on their own terms) - to change the entire situation completely.

The logic is simple, yet it's very difficult to effect because the emotion involved tends to be used to justify each party sticking to their particular roles. But there are a variety of ways and means that resolution can be achieved, dependant on the unique situation.

Sapphira

Hi Jan,Ace and Alice,

What I was meaning exactly was that this situation is very complex and constantly shifting. What may be appropriate at one time may not be so further on down the track. I am happy to comment, as you asked, with an overall point of view, based on the information you give. But that is all. Your daughter's behavour obviously distresses you greatly.Understandably. In my country when an adult's life is so upset by the behaviour of another adult's, these people are also encouraged to seek professional help, as their dilemma can be as complex as the person with the 'problem' behaviour, in a different way. And these people are often counselled not to even try to discuss the anorexia except in the presence of an independant professional. To intervene, not to intervene. These are extremely important and complicated questions! I feel you may do well to seek the help and support for yourself in addition to that which you ask for your daughter. Particularly if things do progress to a state you feel is critical. If she doesn't go then at least you can. It is totally your call what you do.And only your call, because only you have to live with the consequences. Based on the conclusions of your own mind and heart. This is what I meant. For my part I have said all I intend to about your situation, apart from the fact that I sincerely wish you ALL very, very best through this.

Sapphira

Dear forum -

It's been 5 months or so since I've last written. I havent forgotten you all, and I remain very grateful for your assistance in the past in helping us with our daughter's problems of being involved with a Psychopath. I'm happy to report that things are now much better for her on several fronts. Our relationship with our daughter has improved dramatically, and she is no longer involved with the Psychopath. This forum's predictions of how things would transpire were quite accurate! As most of you said, it would take some time, we would have to be patient as difficult as that might be, but eventually doubts would arise in her mind regarding the Psychopath, and she would have to come to conclusions by herself. This in fact happened. We thank God that whatever damage has occurred to her has apparently not been permanent (no pregnancy, violence, major debts, etc). The whole thing lasted several months and thankfully not several years.
Our daughter moved back home, after being on her own for several months. For the last few months, we didnt have too deep a discussion with her on looking back, because we knew all this would be sensitive for her. However, we had a dinner table discussion that lasted a few hours a couple nights ago. Now that things settled down, we told her objectively that she was involved with a Psychopath, and we explained to her what a Psychopath is clinically, the tell-tale signs etc. She seemed to internalize and comprehend this now. She was amazed at this relevation - how most of the points of what a Psychopath mapped directly into her real-world situation . She said what we have told her has made her feel immediately much better. She was and still is bewildered by the whole thing, but she understands that she was involved with someone who is clinically disturbed and not a 'normal' individual which explains why everything seemed weird. A couple of highlights from the talk included (1) Letting her know that if she feels the need to talk to a professional to further air out her feelings she can do that, we'd help her, and its perfectly understandable (2) If the Psychopath tries to get back in touch with her she should have no contact with him whatsover, even though he hasnt approached her so far (3) We totally accept her in a loving non-judgemental way, and although things are not back to 100% normality, they are not far away from it either. She recently enrolled in a fashion design program and recently found work in this field.
Another big issue at the time, as big as that of the Psychopath in fact, was her anorexia. On this subject, I'm happy to say, she's doing much better as well. In short, she's not eating optimally, but she's very much above the 'red-line' of anorexia.
I just wanted to write to thank you all for providing so much support, education, and guidance to us as parents whose daughter was involved with a Psychopath. This site plays a very vital role in this and in our case seems to be one that you can all chalk up as a success. I can only wish you all similar improvements in your respective situations. I will continue to monitor discussion on this site, and perhaps offer some feedback to other people's problems based on our experience.

Best regards

ace and alice

Hello Ace and Alice,
So happy to hear from you again...And knowing now how much things have improved makes me so relieved. I was thinking of you and the situation throughout the months that have past, wondering how you are.
It is good to know you took the advice we all gave and left her alone ...not really, i get that, with her own developement in this ordeal.
Even the anorexia is better now...How relieved you and your wife will be...
To be honest, and I think I remember we said it before; your daughter seems intelligent enough to figure out this man isn't what she wants for the rest of her life...And she did!!!! great news!!!.
Isn't it wonderful she is back home and has a nice place to work?? All seems to have worked out for the best!

I am also glad you will keep reading here and when necessary will give your support in return to others who might need it..And we all know, sooner or later there will be people in need of information and support how to deal in a situation that their son or daughter is involved with a psychopath.

So, we will see more of eachother in the futher....That's for sure...

Regards Segaya

Hello Ace and Alice, it is so wonderful that you came back to tell us of your great success. Your daughter sounds like a lovely young woman and is lucky to have parents like the both of you to help her understand what she was being involved with. Maybe someday when she is better she can come by and use the forum as an "electronic journal" because I think your story of help and healing can help others greatly. We have so many parents who read but have too much pain to post so your reaching out is being heard.

I think I have mentioned this movie before but try to rent What about Bob with Bill Murray, it has a sweet charming message about taking those baby steps toward life.

It is so kind of you to come back and share your great progress! Like they say in recovery, relapse can be part of the process and your daughter is a very lucky young woman indeed to have such supportive and loving parents. Your lovely daughter is very blessed for your giving her the space to figure out something was seriously wrong, now she can have the space to work on her anorexia. Body image is so rampant among young people and even older ones, they really turn out quite unattractive but their image in the mirror is different than what others see.

Both of you and your daughter have taken a huge step forward, it is hard to express how much I admire your strength.

Di

Hello Alice and Ace

It was a lovely surprise to see you on the forum. It’s great to get feedback on success stories. I’m so pleased your relationship with your daughter has survived and it’s amazing she is so open to understanding what she has been part of so soon after the event.
I know t’s early days but you are all going down the same road now and I’m sure things will get better still.
I take it your daughter didn’t accept the university place?

I hope you will keep visiting the forum and share your experiences with new members.

Regards
Jan

Hi Ace,

I was really happy to read your last posting in this thread, and I am so pleased that your daughter has got the psychopath out of her life within months, rather than years.

I read your earlier postings in another thread "concern for daughter", and added my own story there because there seemed to be some similarities. In my case, it took several years, not months, and the situation is still not finalised, since our daughter remains in prison on account of being associated with her Psychopath husband con man. My wife and I remain optimistic that our daughter has seen the light, and won't return to the Psychopath. We're looking after our granddaughter, who never wants contact with her stepfather ever again, and we're really proud of her progress. We were so concerned at her welfare over the years, so I actually feel God has answered my prayers. I now pray that our daughter's life can be turned around once she's released, which I hope won't be long.

Your daughter has demonstrated considerable maturity at a young age, now that she has recognised the Psychopath for what he is and admitted it to herself and to you. In our daughter's case, it took being arrested and put into prison to to shake her into a sense of reality. No doubt she'll have some serious issues to sort out once she's out, and we'll be there to help. Strangely enough, her greatest source of help may turn out to be her own daughter! We'll see.