Don't be too hard on yourself Relly. This is a sick situation with your young friend like an inmate in Wacko or Jonesville, because it sounds as though her mother is heading a cult. People get wrapped up in such certainty and compelling fantasies - like Stockholm syndrome - because the only relief is when 'They' let you feel better and weirdly, you feel grateful in response.

Psychopaths and narcissists brng out the worst in others - frustration, sometimes extraordinary anger that leads to bad actions. That's part of the shame affecting us but not them, because they don't feel it. They preen instead - as in 'see? I said you were a loser/bitch/lunatic'

The story underlines to me why your friend really has to take a sabbatical and get far away. Now she had a record and that's going to really damage her in future. If she takes it to heart, she may behave violently with others later, when in truth she needs a smart therapist who has much expertise in this area of abuse and in mother-daughter ties.

Just keep documentation as thoroughly as a scientist would and be wary of getting obsessed. If you take therapy, make sure the therapist has skill and experience in this area because many don't. Perhaps one question is what this girl and this situation represent for you.

It's totally sensible that your body shows symptoms when your emotions don't. Body tends to speak when emotions and mind don't have the words. Figure out where the aches and pains are and that might give you a lead. And as regards your hope to 'self-improve', no one can improve themselves to cope with, understand or change a psychopath. Take it from me, you can waste years trying (and then more). Go girl!

Hello Relly

You are welcome even though I couldn't offer you much.

I didn't realise your friend has a partner, how does the partner figure in all this?

I think it's now time for you and your friend to get on with your lives and try to enjoy the friendship without this problem hanging over you. I know that you will always be watching your backs but you need to get as much emotional and physical distance between you and this woman as you can. She can only do damage or victimise your friend if she makes herself available.

I understand the judge's decision to a point, I think I have said on many occasions that when someone swears on oath in court then it's taken as the truth from that person otherwise the cross examination would go on for ever. That decision legally placates the mother and gives your friend a reason for keeping well away from the woman.

Seeing a GOOD counsellor is a an excellent way to address opening yourself up and I hope you can let yourself 'enjoy' the liberation it can give you. I admire your honesty when you say you are learning to change and are looking at self improvement...I think all of us could benefit from doing that but sometimes we are afraid to be honest with ourselves.

Turn a negative into positive....but do allow yourself some pleasure in the process, even if it's just pleasure in your journey to somewhere better.

Regards
Jan

Hi everyone,
Just an update - things have been quiet since Court, we are all ok & have some peace, which is wonderful - We are still looking for another house for the grandparents, but with the financial crisis at the moment, it may not be anytime soon. The MOM is living back in the marital home with her husband (who she divorced recently on the grounds of fear of him & abuse & got an AVO on him also). My friend is looking to go to Uni for further studies which is great & I am enjoying being able to relax & unwind & spend time with family & friends & doing some reno's on my house... Thank you all for your support & advice & I wish everyone peace, love & joy in their future along with good times & good friends.
Cheers
Relly 59

Hello Relly

Thanks for the update, it's always good to hear positive news.

You sound so much more relaxed and content and ready to get on with the more enjoyable things in life. Working on the house is a great way of spending time and energy, doing something where you can see improvements gives a sense of satisfaction.

It's also good to hear your friend is going on to further studies and I wish her well.

Enjoy your new found peace of mind and it was so nice of you to remember us.

Regards
Jan

hello there reading the right books and logging on to the internet saved my sanity. Learning to forgive yourself for not recognising the symptoms esp if it was or is your child who suffers. Reading an amazing book The trouble with Alex by Melanie Allen. Jan you know how good this is. The author describes how she saw something wrong with her adopted child but could not name it and others simply saw no problems leaving the assumption that the family was the problem and not the child. I am writing down the similarities as I read.I too had an adopted child who presented with many of same problems which did not seem problems at the time really there were no major problems but rather overcompliance and sneakiness which covered up the real agenda of the child. If only I had had this book then I would have done things differently but thank god I heard about it on the radio. A brave lady to put pen to paper because to the uninitiated it seems like the mother is pushing the child too hard and even I found myself feeling for the child when she describes how the child pushed her to the limits and she became almost abusive in an attempt to reach her. You have to be firm and consistent with these children or they will soon overtake you and make your life hell. Not many would fit into a normal family. If you described the signs to a lay person or even some psychologists they may not see the isue. Staring or holding the gaze too long
impassive stares
ability to hold better eye contact than an adult
savours conflict amongst others
Ability to fake
Comes across perfect to others
rigid stare
doing stuff to iritate
no obvious show of emotion
constant need to control
one on one need for contact
purposeful misunderstanding

These are a few of the signs I agree with the author. The best help is to be had by realising that you need help if you have a child like this. You cannot force such a person to learn that which you know instinctively like morals or sense of empathy. Even criminals are not all like this. Like an alien coming to earth these children can mimic but not become.
I have decided I want to study this much further and open up my experience warts and all to help others. For the only true help for victims of this type of experience is to speak and learn with others who have experienced for the victims become the experts and hopefully society learns to contain and recognise what is happening.

Hello Damaskrose

I did get the Melanie Allen book after you posted the link to the radio programme. I also sent to the BBC and got a copy of the interview so thank you for putting that information on the forum.
The book is a must read for anyone with children with a personality disorder. I recognised so many of the things she describes which would probably be unnoticed by the 'untrained' eye. A few times I smiled when reading it because I was that crazy woman at times. We had a session teaching my partner's kid the alphabet and I still don't know whether he really didn't know it or not but was just pushing our buttons.
My copy of the book is bulging with post-it notes for things I want to refer back to. I would love to hear your comments on Ms Allen's conclusion.

That is so true what you say about learning to forgive yourself, I went one step further and allowed myself to admit that I didn't like my partner's kid let alone love him...he was unlovable. Adults are supposed to like/love children and when we don't we question ourselves.
I remember so clearly thinking 'why don't other people see what I do..there is something terribly wrong with this kid?' When you think about it why would they care?

It's only when people like us and Melanie Allen tell it like it is will we ever have a chance to be heard and get something put in place to get support. It sounds like shock tactics but we should tell about those things that we keep hidden within the home, things we work around that become almost 'normal'.Things that are not discussed at dinner parties when other people talk about their kids.

I hope you move has put you in a better place and that you are ready to tell us more. You must have so much experience to share but haven't lost any of your kindness.

You remind me of Lady Crown who has such integrity.

Regards
Jan

Hi jan you are such an inspiration and all who share also help others to heal i was so packed with guilt i was missing the point. Help comes to those who reach out and whether it is our partner or our child or other relative we the victim grieve and recover becoming stronger. Our 'flaw' is our integrity our humanity! This is how the aggressors get in our heads.