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relly59 says:

Finding this site was a blessing. I am frightened for my female friend as I believe her mother is a psychopath and may actually carry out her threat to kill her. The mother has assaulted her and had the police arrest my friend for the assault, hopefully we will be able to expose what she really is in Court next month!! My friend is the product of her mothers’ first marriage and mum detests her with a passion as she reminds mum of her first husband and cannot stand the sight of her or any successes she has, she wants to destroy her any way she can. MUm is also extremely manipulative and convincing, conning the authorities to permit her to take care of her grandmothers financial affairs. (there are 4 generations in this family) I also believe mum is after her own parents estate as she was taking all the right steps to get control. I have stepped in and removed some of those to protect the grandparents of my friend at this stage, and I hope it’s enough. Mum has also got two other daughters who are just like her - frightening - and they all know how to ‘play the system’ to their advantage. I’ve never seen anything like this before, how unbelievably good they are at acting - they deserve an Academy Award for their performances, yet people fall for their lies even despite ‘Evidence’ to the contrary. To say this is scary as well as frustrating is an understatement. My friend is terrified her mother will kill her, and /or her grandparents for their assests and / or set her up for their deaths, and I have seen enough to be totally convinced and extremely concerned, but don’t know enough about what to do to help protect them from mum at this stage, but I’m learning, I just hope fast enough. The lawyer we have spoken to said mum fits the classic definition of a female psychopath, so we’re hoping he will have enough skill to expose her lies and manipulations in Court.
Fingers crossed. Any advice from others who relate to this?

Monday, 9 June 2008 @ 5:32am

Hello relly 59

Your friend is lucky to have your support, whatever her mother is has to be dealt with. Psycopathy is something that needs a proper diagnosis although we all have out own thoughts and opinions.

Do you mind if I ask how old your friend is? The only reason it is relevant is because of parental obligations or responsibilities so she may have the upper hand. I'm presuming your friend has left her mother's home.

Are you able to give any more information about the background to your friends situation?

Hopefully if with the right information we can give you and your friend some support.

Regards
Jan

My friend is 30 years old and the product of her mothers first marriage.
The mother appears to be obsessed with disrediting and destroying her daughter in any way she can, it's sickening. The lies, the projections, the jealousy is unbelievable.
This woman obviously hates her daughter as she reminds her of her initial mistake and tarnishes her fantasy of what she perceives her life should or could be. My friend did not choose mum's first husband, did not sleep with him, but a product of her mothers choices, and is being punished for that. My friend also stands in the way of her mother's greed, to get her hands on her parents and grandmothers assets before she is entitled to inherit their estates. There are 4 generations in this family. Mum has contol of grandmothers (my friends' greatgrandmother)financial affairs, tried to get her hands on her own parents estate, (my friends grandparents who actually raised her most of her life)and we are both concerned for them all, fearing mum may not wish to wait until they pass on from natural causes, if you understand what I mean. I honestly believe this woman is dangerous, but I can't prove it.
I am also concerned mum may try to either kill or seriously injure my friend or try to set her up for the fall for her devious plans to eliminate her parents to obtain their money.
I don't know what else we can do. I have explained this to my lawyer.

Hello relly59

Your friend would do well to stay a long way from her mother, at 30 years old I sould guess she now has a life of her own. As for waiting for an inheritance....is her safety worth the price.

I think your friend needs to think seriously about what she wants from the future and accept the consequences of her decisions.

It is very difficult to know what your friend hopes to gain by making herself avaialable apart from the financial benefit which MAY come her way and there is no guarantee that she will be a beneficiary in the end.

Regards
Jan

She does stay away and avoids her mother as much as possible - but she loves her grandparents, they are also frail and love their granddaughter and enjoy their time with her. The mother will drive by their house, if she sees their vehicle there, she calls the police, making up false allegations, in an attempt to have her daughter arrested etc. It's like my friend is being stalked by a predator, who is mostly unseen and hides in the shadows, never knowing when it will pounce. The mother is a brilliant actress and I have seen her in action, the way she can manipulate men is astounding, they fall for her meek, mild, coy, eyelash batting, victim act every time. Mother has just divorced her second husband - but get this - she is back living in the same house with him, which is about 2 mins down the road from her parents house - I have an awful feeling this was not a real divorce = it was more of a plan to enable her to move into the grandparents home to initiate her plans for control of their property. Thank God they got her to move out - but only after she had attacked them physically and called the police on them and tried to have them arrested and charged as well and they are 80+ years old!! She just doesn't stop - there is no way to stop her either as she still resides close by. They have decided to sell up & move, hopefully, without her finding out about it or where they move to in the near future.

Hello relly59

This problem your friend has seems to be concerning you more than her, how is she coping with the situaton?
If the grandparents are moving away because they are aware of their daughter's intentions and will not let her know where they are going then then things should improve.

There is nothing to stop them making a will in their granddaughter's favour so the mother will get nothing. Has this been discussed between your friend and her grandparents, it may aready have been done? If the mother knew this she may become more abusive to her parents to get them to change their will, this will have to be considered. If on the other hand they are leaving their estate to their daughter they need to get protection but at least she will know she will be getting an inheritance fairly soon.

Maybe your friend should let her mother know she wants nothing from her grandparents estate and does not want to be mentioned in the will? I'm sure all she cares about is their welfare and would gladly forego an inheritance if their happiness was assured.

Would your friend like to write a little on the forum to let us know how she feels? Is she asking for you to take control of the situation?

Regards
Jan

hi Relly,
I read your story before and didn't replay untill now..I get a strainge feeling about it.
Is your friend really 30 years of age??? it seems to me that she is younger and you need to take care of her?
I think when people are at that age they have to be able to look after themselves properly and when they speak about their problems with forinstance a friend, this friend has to keep in mind that this is told in convidence... So I wonder if your relationship with her is different from how I see a friendship?
Does she know at all that you are writing about her, and what you are writing???

Sorry but I just don't feel at ease when I read it and I can't put my finger on the reason other then the above.

Taking what you are telling very seriously I wonder why you keep in her company for on what you are writing there is danger for everybody involved. Aren't you afraid the mother will harm you when she would know how much the daughter is sharing with you?
As we always say on this forum; Keep away from psychopaths as far as you possibly can and turn away from all situations that are happening because of those psychopaths.
When, in my work I would speak to somebody like you I would ask them what concern of them this is? The people who are really involved because the psychopath is there child parent or sibbling, can't run from the situation, but why shouldn't you?
This is hard, and not something you want to vulenteer to?

Just some questions that are in my mind when reading you posting.
regards Segaya

I am not only her friend, but more of a parental figure in her life. My own daughter is 27 y.o. My friend only has her elderly (80 y.o.)grandparents as family and why should she have to walk away from them when they need each other? Yes she knows I have been talking on the net about her situation asking for information that would help her situation. Yes, the grandparents have changed their will, their daughter gets nothing and they leave just about everything to their son and a little bit to their grandaughter. No the mother does not know this at this stage. Yes, I am concerned she may try to have a go at me, but this is why I am searching for information on how best to deal with her should further situations arise.
I think you are misunderstanding where I'm coming from - I am just being very protective of a friend who needs support, loyalty and as much advice as she can get. The grandparents have said they will look around to buy a place near their grandaughter so she can still look after them and support them as they are too old to go too far away. Hopefully the mother will not find out where they move to. I am also very close to them as well and concerned for their welfare. Does this clear matters up for you?

Yes, all this has been discussed. My friend actually told her grandparents to sell everything and spend it on a round the world trip so there was nothing left - haha.
We are not talking about just a house or something here either, which is why the mother wants it all. Grandparents didn't want to do that, they like being homebodies and going to play bingo with their friends etc. They are very set in their ways as you would understand of those who are 80 years old, knowing they have little time left with us.
I feel misunderstood in this forum - maybe it's because of cultural differences - I'm an Aussie & we have a very strong mateship culture over here - one where you stand by your mates through thick & thin - loyalty through good times & bad - Why should I run away, when if I get as much information as I can to share with all concerned, we can stand united against her to protect everyone??? Or would you rather I walked away and left them just because they have a problem? Geez, I hope there is never a war or something with you guys on my team if that's the attitude you have. Walk away if there's a problem or if things get tough. What you should be telling people is to network with others, get the evidence against them, stand together & fight back!!!! How can you let these bastards walk all over you and get away with it? I understand they are cunning, manipulative & good at it too - but they can't possibly be undefeatable, surely?....

Hello Relly59

I'm sorry you feel misunderstood on the forum, it's quite unusual that someone should take on another person's problems with such intensity. It's laudible that you are looking after your friend but I think what some of the members were thinking was why your friend is not the one looking for support and is relying so heavily on you as she is not a child. I hope you don't mind me being honest with you but I personally was wondering if this situation is more of a problem to you than your friend, You have taken on a very protective role and that is probably because you are naturally a protective person and looking after your friend as though she was your child and we all put our children's welfare before our own I hope your worries about what this woman could do are not as real as you think they may be.

I don't think this has anything to do with cultural differences as the people on this forum are from many parts of the world, Australia included. The advice when dealing with a psychopath is always get well away from them as there is nothing you can do for them or with them. You are in the position to keep away from this woman you suspect is a psychopath and your friend needs to do that too. Does she have a partner or any other close family members who she can also rely on for support or are you the only person she relies on?

It's good to hear the will is in the son's favour and a small amount for your friend as she will not be the target for her mother. Also good the the grandparents are moving closer to her and the woman will not know where they are-if that is possible. There is a light at the end of this tunnel.

You didn't mention how the son fits into the situation, is he aware of his sister's aggression and does he suffer similar problems? If so I would think he is the one who should watch his back! What exactly does your friend have to put up with from her mother, is it just threats or has she done anything that can be reported to the police? If so, has she reported the events. She needs to keep a record of anything she suspects her mother of doing but proof is the only thing the police are intrerested in unfortunately.

What information are you hoping to find that will help your friend? I think the advantage you have is that the mother is 'on her own' whereas the grandparents, yourself, your friend and maybe her uncle are all working together. Are there any outside agencies who look after older people's welfare that can get involved if you are worried about their well being?

It would give us a better idea of how your friend is coping with the situation if she could write about her experiences here on the forum and we could speak to her directly. Would she be willing to do that? I presume she has already been reading what has been posted here so wouldn't have to cover the same background information -just her feelings on what she hopes we can do to help.

Regards
Jan

Hi Relly59!

You sound very upset and very caring about all the vulnerable people involved in this complicated family struggle. I felt an off note in the story based on my own experiences with a Psychopath - which could mean I'm projecting - where he would stoke me up to campaign for him and then I'd end up being the upset, worried one while he moved on, apparently innocently, with me taking the rap.

I wonder how healthy it is for your friend to have any contact with them, and how healthy it is for you to be so upset and involved. The grandparents seem well, happy,financially secure, enjoying their bingo and in each other's company. They are smart enough to see their daughter's manipulations and sell up to move away - yet they are playing favourites and pushing buttons by telling everyone their wealth will go mostly to their son, which must drive their daughter, your friend's mother, even crazier. Meanwhile, they know she knows her own daughter prefers them, which must make her even worse (whether or not it is justified). And they make sure the grandaughter is like the favourite 'daughter' rather than their own daughter, which blurs the boundaries between generations and makes your friend and her mother effectively compete. No wonder the mother cannot see a divorce from her husband means precisely that.

This family is very disturbed and riven with power struggles, it seems. Your friend and her mother are more like siblings fighting for spoils - I wonder if the greatgrandparent is the grandparents mother? If so, this is a four-generation row. Why would great grandparent not give authority to grandparents, rather than skip a generation? Why is this repeated in them skipping their own daughter to give it to her brother and daughter?

The allocation of the spoils is separating everyone in the family, it is incestuous because the normal boundaries are not observed. Brother is set against sister, daughter against mother and so on. Something is deeply off and no wonder you are concerned. It is perverse and possibly psychotic.

The question is whether this wrong can be righted by an outsider, as you are. Sometimes people who look crazy are being driven crazy by a Psychopath's behaviour. Not always. I would be wary of being placed opposite the friend's mother, if I were you. And I would question what was really at stake here between your friend and her mother. It may be that the lack of limits and boundaries in their lives could be bad for you, as it is for them. Imagine if another woman confronted you about your 27-year old daughter... and if your daughter encouraged her to do it.

The task of a 30 year old woman is to make her own life. Perhaps this is where your friend might focus her labour and energy.

I have sent her evrything I have written & the responses - but she is soo impacted by the years of abuse by her mother (who works in conjunction with her 2 step-sisters, who I believe may also be psychopathic like their mother) she doesn't want to 'go there'. As far as other friends go, she has very few she can talk to for support. I am her main support as we live in a rural area. From what I have seen and heard from all other family members, mom has resented her daughter from birth asshe left her first husband while pregnant with her, remarried 2 years later and had the other 2 girls. She has tried to destroy my friend in numerous ways ever since, luckily she had her grandparents to look after her when a child. I also suspect mom tried to "poison?" her (kill?) her as a small child. She suffered sever kidney problems but funnily enough, since staying with her grandparents fromthen on, nothing like that has happened since.... My friend is terrified of her mom - often can't talk about it even to me & gets upset & in tears - she has bought another car so her mom wont know what car she's driving - avoids going anywhere she might run into her, has kept her new job a secret so mom can't 'interfere' with that (as she has done in the past) gets her grandparents to visit her instead of her going to their place so mom doesn't see them together. The mom's brother is not a psychopath, he is a very quiet introverted type, who I believe is very aware of her behaviours and what she is capable of and stays as quiet as possible to avoid her wrath (clever man haha)although he has some medical problems and is not well either. As far as me being 'protective' of those I care about, I have always been like that & I know why - I am 'triggered' by bullies as my father was a violent man (probably a psychopath too)& I was the protector in my family and I suppose I still am. These days I try not to 'rescue' as much as I used to, but empower those close to me with information, love & support to cope with their own challenges in life, which is why I joined this forum, for information to pass on and it turned out to be very different from what I expected. Thank you for you time and comments.

I agree with you in a lot of areas there. It is very disfunctional in many ways as most families are - but the mom was estranged from the rest of the family for a few years and in the meantime she had sneakily gone behind everyones back and applied to a government department to take 'care & control' of her grandmothers (the great-grandmother of my friend) affairs as she was diagnosed with dementia at 94 y.o. The reason she got back in with the family is her own mother (my friends grandmother) was diagnosed with cancer and she wanted all her family dramas resolved before she passed away, which is understandable. That's the reaspn why they 'allowed' mom to 'look after' the greatgrandmother initially, as they didn't think they would be able to. That's when this whole business of mom leaving her husband & moving in with her parents thing started. She thought she could get control of their matters as well as she was terminal. That's when the moms campaign really started up again in earnest against her daughter (my friend) and we didn't understand why at first. Then I started wondering 'what if' and we slowly put it all together. Since then we have been advised this was a misdiagnosis and moms plans went out the window...Mom is living back with her husband that she just 'divorced'. The grandparents in this don't have a lot of cash, but are wealthy in assets. Once they became aware of what she was & was up to, that's when they changed their will, and they haven't told anyone else as they are concerned of her reaction if she found out. The brother is obviously afraid of her as he stated he wanted me to be on the will with him as executor to support & protect their wishes. It's not greed on the rest of the family's part - they have tried to encourage the grandparents to sell up everything so there would be no problems, but they don't want to as they built & collected all their lives and are reluctant to let it go. So everyone else is hostages to mom's devious games. I hope this makes things a bit clearer for you to understand the family dynamics here.

Hi Relly,
I can see why you expected something different.

There are too many questions left for me to respond on what you are telling. What is left for me to react on is probably not what you want to hear I am afraid!
Again I will go into the question of why do you ask so many questions for your friend???Somehow it seems odd I think.
You say you try to get out of the rescueing..There has to be a reason for that! Why doens't the same reason go for this friend?

Everybody has a learning school in this life..So does your friend. Trying to solve the problems someone else has, is in a way taking away those lessons. Question is if we are allowed to do so...!!!! This way we don't rescue but just get involved in such a way that we don't give the oppertunity for those people to learn what they have to learn and we take away the experience and the lessons they need later on in life...
I, and you, are not the ones who have to deside what will and will not, can and can not happen in someones live are we?...We are also not the ones who have to deside what has to happen for them, we can't make their choices and we can't make their decisions....

Every parent knows there will be a time to let go of their children for those kids have the right to make their own lives..This is not done easely and not done to hurt them,it is the only way for the human beings to become who they are suppost to be.
Taking their lessons away is in a way taking their lives away and keep control over them.
So dear Relly, as hard as it is... First when you will let go, your friend gets the oppertunity to make her own life what she wants it to be..Will she get hurt?...Than so be it!
This will go on until she herself will take action against it..You can't learn her lessons for her, You have to learn yours!
Take this from me..everything in life has it's meaning and there is nothing happening just for the fun of it! When she has enough of it she will do what she has to do...keeping her comforted by what you are doing is only prosponing that moment. So seen from that point of view there is a reason this is happening to her. There is already the BIGGER PLAN , if you know what I mean, She is taken care of already without interference from others who need and want to rescue her.....

Another possibility, and don't blame me for being straight with you this time....that you are not talking about a friend, but about what is happening to you.
When this is the case then please get forward because this way we only keep our questions and you will get no answers! And that, Relly means you will get no support..You see what I mean?
I hope you will understand what I mean to say...
Regards Segaya

Also I forgot to mention, yes the great grandmother in this is the mother of the grandmother, who is the mother of the 'MOM', who is the mother of my friend - yes four generations in this complicated family. The grandparents were not smart enough to see what their daughter (mom) was up to at first, but they do see it clearly now and are feeling guilty and wondering what they did wrong to cause her to be this way... They are in their 80's and are actually very sweet and naive and confused as to why anyone could be like this. It upsets them to know their daughter is a 'fruitcake' and have asked another family member to challenge her control of the greatgrandmother affairs when it comes up for review with the government agency as they aren't capable at their age and my friend doesn't want the responsibility as MOM would then have another issue to attack her with, so I don't blame her for not wanting to get involved, even though he loves & cares for her greatgrandmother dearly. She just wants to avoid her at all costs and just wants to live her life & enjoy her grandparents as that's all she has that she's close to. I may not be related by blood to this family, but I am sort of 'extended family' to these people & friends for quite a few years. I want to make this clear -I have no vested interests (regarding money) in this family - I am not in their will to receive anything, nor do I want anything.

No this is not happening to me - it is happening to a very dear & close friend who asked me to find out any information I could to help her - which I did and this is the response I got. I'm sorry, but this forum is not what I expected and has really not provided much advice except to 'stay away' from MOM. We already know that & do that as uch as possible. I was looking for intelligent insight and information not questions !!!
This might be ok for some who like to do a pseudo-psychology group session & discuss their 'feelings' here - that's not what I was asking for. I'm fairly ok with my 'personal development' in that area & am very aware of what 'triggers' me & what doesn't - I thought you would have noticed that when I said 'rescue' & 'triggered' - I have done quite a bit of personal work on myself which is why I picked up on what MOM was about - they haven''t & so didn't understand psychology /psychiatry at all, where as I have a little, which is why my friend asked me to look for information for her. I do understand 'LIFE' has it's lessons to be learned, which is why we are trying to 'learn' about this issue. Why do you keep telling me to let go? Is there a problem in asking for information and advice for a friend who has asked you to do that for them? I pass on the information I get so she can stand up for herself and do this for herself, so why are you asking me to stop? Why are you asking why I am concerned? Wouldn't anyone be concerned if they care about someone? I find this whole line of questioning very disturbing. I also wonder why I appear to be the suspect or manipulator or manipulated here? Trust me, I am not. I also am wondering why you keep 'pushing' for my friend to come on here and talk about her 'feelings' on this? Is there a voyueristic agenda here? What would that achieve? We all know how others feel when they are targeted & screwed over by assholes - hurt, upset, frightened, anxious, scared, betrayed, confused... the list is endless (similar to PTSD) and doesn't help her defend herself from her MOM - that's what we wanted, how to protect & defend from her schemes & plots and unfortunately you do not provide that here. She offloads to me about her feelings when she feels like talking about it. I listen, let her cry it out and offer love, support a hug & then we may have dinner & a glass of wine & time for her to process it all. Yes, I am human & I get angry that MOM is doing this and maybe that's what you're picking up, because I am as I would be if this was my own daughter & wanted to protect her from a nutter. I will say goodbye now and wish you all the best in the future with your forum with others. Thank you for your time and concerns, they are not necessary in this situation.

Hello Relly59

I am sorry you couldn't get the information and answers you were looking for, none of us are professionals so we can only offer suggestions to support you while you make sense of what is going on until you decide what you hope to do to change the situation. When I re-read your posts I didn't think you were asking specific questions that we could offer information about. The only way we could find out more about your friend's problem was to ask questions as it wasn't clear what she wanted and what we could offer.

I can state that we are not voyeuristic just that it would have helped us understand more cleary what your friend wanted to happen from her perspective. It is up to the people involved to decide whether they want to be told what to do or whether they just want to ask others if they are doing the right thing and need support to give them confidence to go ahead.

It seems from what you have now told us that the grandparents will situation has been taken care of by the brother so nothing that needs to be done there. Do I understand right that the mother has Power of Attorney over the great grandmother's estate and that the position is going to be reassessed? In the UK Power of Attorney can be administered by 2 people so if it is the same where you live then the brother could apply for joint Power of Attorney as joint signatory.

What I am unsure about is if your friend has changed her job and car and has the grandparents to visit her what more can she she do to avoid her mother? If she isn't concerned about inheriting anything then she has almost removed herself from the problem and all that is left is to break away emotionally and that is something only she can do.
If this woman is a psychopath then nothing will change her and no-one will be able to get through to her so the best advice for anyone dealing with a psychopath is get as far away from them as possible. They only cause misery for all who are involved with them.

I did pick up on your anger on your friend's behalf and she does seem to rely heavily on you but what does she expect you to do for her because she has already done all she can to remove herself from the situation?

I think what we also picked up on was that this problem seems to be causing you a lot of distress and maybe your friend is not as distressed as you but enjoying the attention she is getting from you because it makes you react to her. I do think that at the age of 30 your friend does have to decide for herself what she needs to do to get the peace of mind she is looking for...or is she really looking for peace of mind???? Perhaps she is so entrenched in her family dynamics that she doesn't think that removing herself emotionally is a possibility. This is why the members here are advising her to get away mentally as well as physically.

If I could just ask one more time -what is it your friend wants? You may not want to reply and I understand if you don't. I think we are all unclear what it is and that is why the members have been confused and couldn't offer any support, also none of us are able to deal with the legal aspect of this. In our defence you must have noticed all the members who have replied to you are saying the same things so are in agreement, maybe you are expecting us to say what is already in your mind to confirm what you feel rather than wanting to accept what we are all saying.

Maybe there are forums out there that can offer legal advice for your country if that is what you need and there may be some that offer sympathy but little else. We try to offer practical support and will be here to help if possible.

Regards
Jan

Segaya,

I agree with you there is something strange about these postings...hmm

I have a feeling you (relly59) play a much bigger role in the story, and yes i beleive that friendship is much more like sister hood, not easily abandoned...but then if you were as protective as you sound wouldnt you just say you were the victim and then relay the message to a friend that way?

I am trying not be slightly offended, but there are people in there forums that have been emotionally abused and we reach out to one another in trust and care for each others feelings. You seem to think that being semi insulting is fine here but its not, we just would like to guide you towards a remedy for your dilema. This forum is thereputic because so far its safe to be straight up and honest and you can tell it all and nobody is gonna judge you. So please dont be afraid to be real with us, we are kind of like a pillowy family here and provide a cusion of understanding that other people dont comprehend because they havent been through it...

Thank you Godsgrace....

Hello Relly59

I have edited my last post to you as I made the mistake of abbreviating Power of Attorney and the forum is set to correct some abbreviations. Sorry that it probably didn't make sense.

Jan

HI Relly
I wrote before sidelining to cut and paste the stuff below, then lost my post. Basically, I'd said my hunch was this involved land, that your friend was perhaps too paralysed to do anything (such as get new job in new place, with your help and a relevant therapist) - understandable if she feels her mother is really out to kill her - and that you might know this family a long time and therefore be best placed to assess the mother and figure out how to undercut her campaign, although it could compromise your ethics and might provoke worse behaviour. On the other hand, you may need a dossier for police.

You've mentioned various governmental and legal authorities so here's the paste below, assuming it can be adapted for more everday situations. I can't cite the online source because I didn't take it.

I notice you posted previously about emotional vampires and trusting your body instincts so wonder how they flash with different people in this scenario. (PS Any contact between this friend and her birth father? Could be an ally - though there'll be no change unless she changes something too)

PASTE


The Narcissist In Court

A clear distinction has to be made between the FACTUAL pillar and the PSYCHOLOGICAL pillar of any cross-examination or deposition of a Narcissist.

It is essential to be equipped with absolutely unequivocal, first rate, thoroughly authenticated and vouched for information. The reason is that narcissists are superhuman in their capacity to distort reality by offering highly "plausible" alternative scenarios which fit all the facts.

It is very easy to break a narcissist - even a well trained and prepared one.

Here are a few of the things the narcissist finds irresistible:

Any statement or fact which seems to contradict his or her inflated perception of his grandiose self.

Any criticism, disagreement, exposure of fake achievements, belittling of "talents and skills" which the narcissist fantasizes that he or she possesses, any hint that he or she is subordinated, subjugated, controlled, owned or dependent upon a third party.

Any positioning of the narcissist as average and common, indistinguishable from many others.

Any intimation that the narcissist is weak, needy, dependent, deficient, slow, not intelligent, naive, gullible, susceptible, not in the know, manipulated, or a victim.

The narcissist is likely to react with rage to all these and, in an effort to re-establish his fantastic grandiosity, he is likely to expose facts and stratagems he or she had no conscious intention of exposing.

The narcissist will also react with narcissistic rage, hatred, aggression, or violence to an infringement of what he perceives to be his or her entitlement.

Narcissists believe that they are so unique and that their lives are so cosmically significant that others should defer to their needs and cater to their every whim without question. The narcissist feels entitled to special treatment by unique individuals, over and above the regular "bloke".

ANY insinuation, hint, intimation, or direct declaration that the narcissist is not special at all, that he is average, common, not even sufficiently idiosyncratic to warrant a fleeting interest will inflame the narcissist.


ADD to this a negation of the narcissist's sense of entitlement - and the combustion is inevitable.

Tell the narcissist:

that he or she does not deserve the best treatment,
that his or her needs are not everyone elses priority,
that he or she is boring,
that his or her needs can be catered to by an average practitioner (medical doctor, accountant, lawyer, psychiatrist),
that he or she and his motives are transparent and can be easily gauged,
that he or she will do what he is told,
that his or her temper tantrums will not be tolerated,
that no special concessions will be made to accommodate his or her inflated sense of self, etc.
When approached in this manner, this will cause the narcissist to lose control the majority of the time.

Remember, the narcissist believes that he or she is the cleverest, far above the madding crowd. If contradicted, exposed, humiliated, berated ("you are not as intelligent as you think you are", "who is -really- behind all this? It takes sophistication which you don't seem to have", "so, you have no formal education", "you are (mistake his age, make him much older)... sorry, you are ...old" "what did you do in your life? did you study? do you have a degree? did you ever establish or run a business?" "would your children share your view that you are a good father?" "you were last seen with a Mrs. ... who is (suppressed grin) a DOMESTIC (in demeaning disbelief))", a narcissist will stand the chance of losing it.

I know that many of these questions cannot be asked outright in a court of law. But you CAN hurl these sentences at him during the breaks, inadvertently during the examination or during the deposition phase, etc.

Thanks Eva - that is exactly what I was looking for - information of this kind - how wonderful someone finally got what I was trying to say !!!!
Took a long time to get there but better late than never - I will print this out & hand it to the lawyer today as we have to go to Court today - what perfect timing - Thank you sooo much.... I was getting really, really frustrated with this site - until now....
We have got the 'father' & his wife & the nan & pop coming to court too, so Mom will not have much except the police that she has conned so far - hopefully we will be able to expose her & they will finally see her for what she really is - fingers crossed....

I felt sooo judged & having my motives & agenda questioned here, it wasn't funny - I became sooo defensive again, I couldn't believe it when I reread some of the stuff I responded with - I explained & gave more detail than necessary, and felt really let down by those that my 'expectations' believed offered much more than I received - maybe that's my fault - possible magical thinking on my part?.... Or maybe experience has shown those in this site to be very cautious, wary of people initially & question what they're really about before telling them anything - I don't know - I'm not a mind reader - I just wish I was - hahaha

If you can link evryone to that site where you got that info from I think that would be a great start - educate & train them up as to the Psychopath's weaknesses - get them to get support & network, get smart & they may stand a chance if they cannot just walk away - some people just don't have that luxury... better to try & fail than not try at all - same in love dear - you're not a failure if you've done your best - but you are if you don't even try....
Thanks again Relly

I couldn't have been more honest if I'd tried - and I wasn't aware there were no professionals involved in the forum - sorry, my mistake...
You got it right, sisterhood - you don't walk away from your sisters when times get tough - you support, protect & be there for them until things improve & then you get on with it...
In the meantime, you research & learn all you can to better deal with a situation - I thought that was 'normal' - obviously others have a different outlook - maybe it's because I'm not a 'victim' I don't share that same outlook? I don't know - but what I do know is I am strong enough to stand beside my friends and 'be there' when they need me to be, support where I can, & walk away when & if I (or they) need/want me to. Sorry, I apologise if I came accross as abusive, I was frustrated by the line of questioning & the doubts hurt - I do not like my integrity being questioned, at times in my life that's all I had - was my honour & integrity and I do get a bit defensive - I was only trying to get my point across - which seemed to make matters worse each time - anyways thanks for your time & attention to this matter - I have something to go on now from Eva & have googled that & come up with some very interesting stuff which is most helpful. Good luck in the future to all of your members dealing with these awful kinds of people... God bless..

Thanks Jan - I think I finally got what I was looking for from Eva - & yes I was getting really frustrated & angry - we had a court hearing coming up & I was looking for information on how to expose & deal with this woman's scheme's & manipulations... Which I asked for but wasn't getting - instead I was being questioned on my motives & the doubts about me hurt & **** me off... I'm only human.... Sorry about that - but I think your members are a bit too quick to judge others & I felt very misjudged & reacted instead of acting... Ahh the foibles of being human eh?.... Once again, Thank you & maybe you can learn something from me here - a caring, concerned, loyal friend who is genuine - something many may not have had in their own situation, which is maybe why they seemed to question my motives & doubt me so much....????? I think they need to question themselves & look within as well after this...

Hello Relly

I'm pleased you have got what you were looking for and I do apologise if I missed your post asking for information to take to court. I mentioned previously that I had some problems with viewing some posts. The reason I was asking questions was to get a clear idea of what you wanted as it wasn't obvious to me. Thank goodness Eva was on the ball.

I would like to say that the members here have vast amounts of experience of being victims of psychopaths but none are qualified to make diagnoses, all we can do is share the things we have learned and researched. If you go to the resources section on the forum you will find all the factual information members have contributed over the years. Some members will have similar experiences to others so will be the right people to discuss your particular problem with. From a legal perspective advice and information is different in each country.

I could see your frustration and to be very honest with you I too was getting frustrated because I didn't understand what you were looking for and it perpetuated the circle of doubt.
Maybe you said in one of your posts (that I missed) you were going to court and the reason and I could have directed you to relevant information. I could also see your emotions were running high and that's not a good way to deal with pyschopaths, if they see that they have the upper hand. It is similar to the no contact advice... to show no emotion is the only way to be if you have to have contact. Would you mind refreshing me on what the court case is about?

As you have found out for yourself, psychopaths can manipulate any situation, including other people's perceptions of them so don't be surprised if this woman does this in court. She will have lawyer working for her and that person is her first victim in the court situation. Each person she deals with will have a different view of her, she will work each one for what she can gain. I think you should be prepared to be disappointed that this woman will be exposed. I don't know how much experience you have of courts, over the last 6 years I have had a lot with UK courts and have been extremely diappointed many times. Soemtimes it is shocking what people get away with in court.

I also have to be quite blunt and I hope you don't feel offended but I have to say all the members of this forum do care otherwise they would not spend their time trying to support people in distress. This forum is run entirely voluntarily and many hours are spent researching and posting for the benefit of the readers.
I usually agree that all of us can question ourselves but in this instance I don't think it was entirely necessary as you must have noticed that the replies you received were all very similar and that we were asking what you wanted from us. You were not ignored and we were trying to work with you but had little to go on although there was lots about the emotional aspect rather than hard facts.

I hope like any good friend we can put our differences behind us and take the friendship to another level. With good friends you can be totally honest and at times very personal, maybe even harsh but only for their own good. From now on we should talk honestly and openely with each other to avoid any further misunderstanding. I do hope we can now be more supportive and wish you well with the court case. It would be good to know if you get the result you are hoping for.

Best wishes and please let us know how you and your friend get on.

Regards
Jan

With respect Relly, your comments on the people here who have sought to understand read in a patronising way. While repeated questions and demands signal distress, they can also signal narcissistic and aggressive behaviour, which everyone here must guard against. It is wise and reasonable to explore before forming opinions, which is what your respondents tried to do. This does not indicate a victim mentality. They gave you, a stranger, their precious time.

to all...


there is a song that we sing in church called " Much more than a conquerer ":)
When I was set free from abuse, i shed my "victim" mentality. Theres nothing I have to defend anymore because there isnt anything to hide! ttl...

With respect to everyone concerned, I apologise for my frustration & impatience. I wasn't aware of other information available, that's why I was asking, I didn't check out the site properly, I'm not that good on computers, a bit of a dinosaur really (tech challenged hehe)
We lost in court against her - Mom assaulted her daughter & her own mother & had her daughter arrested for it.... As I said, Mom is the best actress I have ever seen & deserves an Academy Award for her performance - the case went against us inspite of evidence to the contrary - I couldn't believe it - you were sooo right - I really thought the evidence would prove what she really is & expose her - this is why I was sooo anxious, worried, emotional & frustrated - I knew how good / evil she was - I just was unable to articulate that properly for others to understand - again, my mistake. I am going to help grandma & grandpa find a new house & move though, so that's something, we discussed that yesterday. I really feel sorry for them as their whole family is torn apart & they are sooo old & vulnerable. Grandma was itting in the courtroom & was getting upset at all her daughter's (mom's) lies & was about to walk out as she found it too upsetting to listen to her - I asked to her to stay & listen so she would really see what her own daughter was so she knew in her heart that she hadn't made any errors in her own judgement regarding moving away or their will. She now knows the truth & it is breaking her heart & I had to explain it was nothing she did wrong as she feels sooo guilty about how she turned out & doesn't really understand how her own daughter could turn out that way after the way they raised her - poor love... It was sooo sad to watch. I love these people dearly & it tears me apart watching the damage Mom does to them, poor old dears. They are such kind, soft, gentle vulnerable people who need protection from her.

Hello Relly

I am so sorry that things went badly for your friend, her grandparents and you. I'm not at all surprised after years of being subjected to a psychopath's lies. They get so good at it we begin to doubt ourselves when we know the truth.
The law is a 'law unto itself' and pure theatre....the best performance wins! I don't know how the law works in your country but in the UK it seems if you swear on oath then everything you say from then on is the truth and that's all that is used, it is then up to the other side to defend themselves rather than have the opportunity to give the true version of events. Courts are intimidating places and the legals deliberately try to unbalance you but you tried and that's all you can do.

I do wish I'd been able to find out earlier what you would be facing although I probably wouldn't have been able to give you much help to fight this. The only thing you can do once the anger at being misunderestood subsides it to use that emotion to find a new determination move on. The grandparents may now be more vigilant about letting their daughter finding out about where they intend to move to. Over here we have some wonderful sheltered housing for elderly where they can live independently but have others around.

Those poor people having to go through all this and then to feel they should take the blame for their daughter. That is another issue..it's a bit late in their lives to get to grips with knowing about psychopaths let alone understanding them.

What about your friend, did she receive a punishment?

How about you and your friend signing up to a computer course and have some fun together and try to put some distance between the two of you and this horrible situation? That could be another negative that could be turned into a positive.

Regards
Jan

Hello Godsgrace

It great to see someone who has survived an experience like you had and be so postive. You are tonic!

I think you will be able to help a lot of members who have daughters they are desperately trying to help but don't know how. You have the perspective that we don't and you will be able to tell us what you found acceptable advice and what you would not accept.

Thanks for your input, it's a breathe of fresh air.

Regards
Jan

Jan36...

Thank you so much, however I can help I'd be glad to! I wanted to know if I could put his sentence up here to maybe give hope to someone...let me know

Hello Godsgrace

Thank you for offering your help, it is unusual for someone as young as you to have so much experience and who posts on the forum and can offer such insight into how a young person feels. I don't mean to be patronising so hope it doesn't come across like that.

I think it would be so useful if you could tell us what people around you did to help you see what was happening, if anything. At the best of times young people think they know how to handle their own lives and resent any interefence no matter how good the intention. There must have been ocassions when people were telling you things you didn't want to hear so how did you feel about that?

I was wondering if you asked for help from others when you were at your lowest or was the return to your mother the first time you relied on someone else? Finally what was the turning point for you?

I'm not sure what sentence you would like to post but I suppose as long as it follows the guidelines of the forum it should be OK, perhaps if you check the terms you will then be able to decide for yourself.

You must be having a great time with 5 little ones to look after and I wish your family a good future now you have remade your life together.

Regards
Jan

Well i have always been independant, I left home when I was sixteen and got emancipated by the time I was seventeen. I didnt like being dictated to by anyone...funny thing is, my boyfreind at the time whos now my husband, was very controlling and abusive.
I went through that for a long time and it was my dirty little secret.
Unfortunately my adopted mom has always had this I told you so type of attitude, so when I found myself in this perdicament with the sinister minister, I did not want to hear anything she might have to say.
I had not seen my real mom in 10 years, so when I went to stay with her it was for healing.
My friends didnt like the minister, so I cut them off. I did have one friend who I have always kept close to my heart and she would come over and beg me to break up with him. We would literally go rounds. He thought it would be best for me to just stay close to his mama, and family. He said everybody else was a bad influence. I did just that.
It took time for me to see with my own eyes what my friends had been saying. I drifted off into fantasy world, hoping that they were wrong and wishing that he would change. I just wanted to have the ideal relationship with someone. I wanted to have that image of perfection. His wierd little world became my obsession, because I thought I could be the one to help him out of his dark hole. I really thought at first that he was having a good job and money, to show me he could be a good man. But I didnt realise that he was just opperating on a higher scale of crime. He was doing things that he hadnt done before, such as the credit card fraud. I honestly had no idea until I found out for myself. I stayed in fantasy land for quite a long time, I felt like flawless there, but I also felt pressure to be the perfect woman for him, and I tried with every bone in my body. I lost weight I kept the house immaculate, I cooked these perfect little dinners, went to church almost every day, I never cussed smoked or did drugs or anything. I didnt nag him or ever give him a reason to go off. But he did. He found the smallest something and turned it into a huge deal and scared me and made threats.
I talked to my sister who lived in ATL over the phone and she kept saying that she felt like something wasnt right. Every where that I turned people kept saying that I should leave him alone, but it was all so confusing because he would tell me that people had called him and told him that I was betraying him and I wasnt good enough. Later I found out that that was an extention of his demented world...in other words he lied.
More later the phone is ringing!!!

Hello Godsgrace

What you say fits the pattern so clearly and you have described a progression of events and circumstances that enabled things to happen as they did. Obviously you are a very strong person who is introspective and able to work things out for yourself which you did remarkably quickly. Your independence worked in your favour.

I'm sure what you have written will strike a chord with many of the members of the forum and I would like to say thank you for sharing your experience with us all. It will be so useful to be able to direct new posters to what you have written to show them they are not the only ones to have the same experience and there is only one solution.

So many have said they thought the abusive partner would change or they could be the one to change them. They find they have been fleeced financially. They blame themselves, think they are not good enough. They change themselves to be what the partner 'wants' but nothing is enough. Others can see what is happening and can't understand why the victim is under a 'spell' as there is no logical explanation why someone should accept what is happening to them. I suppose lack of self esteem/belief doesn't help and is probably one of the reasons for getting into that sort of relationship whereas people with a strong self image would say "no-one is treating me like that!" and walk immediately before they get sucked in. Or the strong self image is eroded by the psychopath. They are very convincing and sometimes the victim gets trapped or has children to consider so it's not easy or that the partner doesn't start to show their true colours for a while and the victim has doubts that they are really experiencing what they are.

I wish you well and hope you let us know how you are doing.

Regards
Jan

Jan36

Most of the time I am doing okay, but lately I have been kinda down. I wish Life would just go on, but I find myself trying to be the perfect woman yet again...even in this relationship. I try to be the perfect mom...impossible, I try to say the best answer, and I sometimes feel like a walking talking puppet...I sometimes wonder if psychopathy is contagious. I know that time heals all wounds, but I almost feel like I have to over compensate for my mistakes, does that make sense? There are alot of esteem issues I havent gotten worked out yet. I go from day to day feeling this cloud of shame trying to over take me. We live in a small town now and I dont drive much, I go to church but I dont really leave my house much. I am saying these things to let people know that, yes, I was able to get out of the relationship, but he did do some serious damage. Please people understand that its not easy to recover, but recovery is possible...just keep trying and never give up on yourself or anybody you truly love...more later I am feeling pretty low today

Hello Godsgrace

I'm sorry to hear you have been feeling low recently, it was wrong to presume you are able to deal with the past without scars.
There is no such thing as the perfect person and it's sad that you feel you have to strive to be something impossible. You are who you are and if that person is a good, honest, caring person and you like who you are then that should be valued.

I don't believe psychopathy is contagious but it does massive destruction to people and their emotions. I think all credit to you that you realised what what happening and you had the sense to get away, we all make mistakes but I don't think it's necessary to carry on paying for them, you paid heavily for getting involved with this man. There is no debt to be paid. Far from being ashamed I think you should be proud of your choice to move on.

You have youth on your side so plenty of time to work on your self esteem and get your confidence back, I'm sure your experience will be used in a positive way to help others. I do wish you well and hope to hear about your ongoing recovery. I think you deserve respect for being so open and have concern for others.

Regards
Jan

Jan~
dont worry it will pass...it always does, Its just a very demanding lifestyle, motherhood I mean. Most people dont know what its like having more than two or three kids, but let me be the first to tell you all...its sometimes very taxing emotionally. Hopefully in time it will all pass.

To all~

I just wanted to share something personal...my cousin in north carolina was a police officer, and she had a crazy boyfriend and she let him go and he came back for months later and shot her to death. She died this morning five hours after he shot her. She was only 27 years old and she had a child. Very disturbing, thats why Relly I was saying these Psychopaths can be dangerous an dif ou know somebody like that you need to keep your distance.

Dear Godsgrace

What a terrible to thing to hear, a young woman with a young child and her life has been wiped out. I am so sorry.

Thank you for telling us about this horrific event and hope it acts as the warning you intended. These people are dangerous and we are not always aware how far they will go. For someone without a conscience committing any crime leaves them without a trace of guilt.

I feel very sad fof her child and all the family having to cope with losing her. I'm sure everyone here on the forum who reads your post will be very moved and hope it doesn't bring you down when you are having a low period so will be thinking of you.

You have your faith, which I'm sure must be tested at times like this, as a source of comfort.

Regards
Jan

Hi Jan - thanx heaps - yes my friend received an 'Apprehended Violence Order' (AVO) which is to 'protect' Mom from further abuse or violence from her daughter - nothing else, we were lucky - because the judge said that mom was inconsistent in many areas but as she stated under oath that she was fearful of her daughter, the judge granted her the AVO.
Also mom's ex-husband (whom she just divorced) turned up & then in the Courtroom, after the decision was handed down, threatened my friend & her partner & told them they had better start running as they were going to get them... Unbelievable - I did say earlier that I think he is also a part of mom's schemes & plots - he has now proven that to be the case & then he walked out of the court with mom arm in arm... go figure...
Seems that the whole bunch in mom's household is just like her (or at least loyal to her) which is mind boggling to even attempt to comprehend - it's just toooo much to take in. It really has to be seen to be believed - or others would just think you're nuts & making up this stuff - Hollywood could make a movie on this mom (mommy dearest??)but include the rest of the family as well - be interesting eh? ...

The lawyer told my friend not to go anywhere on her own, to be really vigilant & careful of the whole family (mom, step-father, half sisters & their partners) as he has seen enough & I watched him try his best to expose her, but unfortunately, he was bettered by a talented lying psychopath & a disinterested judge....

I am still worried though - as this is not over yet - total madness....

We have done everything possible that we know how... The rest is up to God & what will be will be - take it as it comes from here on..

Thanks for all your time & comments from all in the forum - it's made me take a good look at myself & how I express myself & how I am perceived by others & how I can change that to make life easier in the future - it's another journey / learning /personal development road I'm taking for self improvement. So there is a positive side to this for me personally, as well as learning heaps about psychos... I'm even considering seeing a counsellor again to help me work on those issues recently identified here... AGGHH therapy - I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, but I would wish it on my best friend - anyone who has been there would understand what I mean by that - hehehe
Oh well, here I go again, get physically ill, get mentally / emotionally better - go figure out that paradox...

Don't be too hard on yourself Relly. This is a sick situation with your young friend like an inmate in Wacko or Jonesville, because it sounds as though her mother is heading a cult. People get wrapped up in such certainty and compelling fantasies - like Stockholm syndrome - because the only relief is when 'They' let you feel better and weirdly, you feel grateful in response.

Psychopaths and narcissists brng out the worst in others - frustration, sometimes extraordinary anger that leads to bad actions. That's part of the shame affecting us but not them, because they don't feel it. They preen instead - as in 'see? I said you were a loser/bitch/lunatic'

The story underlines to me why your friend really has to take a sabbatical and get far away. Now she had a record and that's going to really damage her in future. If she takes it to heart, she may behave violently with others later, when in truth she needs a smart therapist who has much expertise in this area of abuse and in mother-daughter ties.

Just keep documentation as thoroughly as a scientist would and be wary of getting obsessed. If you take therapy, make sure the therapist has skill and experience in this area because many don't. Perhaps one question is what this girl and this situation represent for you.

It's totally sensible that your body shows symptoms when your emotions don't. Body tends to speak when emotions and mind don't have the words. Figure out where the aches and pains are and that might give you a lead. And as regards your hope to 'self-improve', no one can improve themselves to cope with, understand or change a psychopath. Take it from me, you can waste years trying (and then more). Go girl!

Hello Relly

You are welcome even though I couldn't offer you much.

I didn't realise your friend has a partner, how does the partner figure in all this?

I think it's now time for you and your friend to get on with your lives and try to enjoy the friendship without this problem hanging over you. I know that you will always be watching your backs but you need to get as much emotional and physical distance between you and this woman as you can. She can only do damage or victimise your friend if she makes herself available.

I understand the judge's decision to a point, I think I have said on many occasions that when someone swears on oath in court then it's taken as the truth from that person otherwise the cross examination would go on for ever. That decision legally placates the mother and gives your friend a reason for keeping well away from the woman.

Seeing a GOOD counsellor is a an excellent way to address opening yourself up and I hope you can let yourself 'enjoy' the liberation it can give you. I admire your honesty when you say you are learning to change and are looking at self improvement...I think all of us could benefit from doing that but sometimes we are afraid to be honest with ourselves.

Turn a negative into positive....but do allow yourself some pleasure in the process, even if it's just pleasure in your journey to somewhere better.

Regards
Jan

Hi everyone,
Just an update - things have been quiet since Court, we are all ok & have some peace, which is wonderful - We are still looking for another house for the grandparents, but with the financial crisis at the moment, it may not be anytime soon. The MOM is living back in the marital home with her husband (who she divorced recently on the grounds of fear of him & abuse & got an AVO on him also). My friend is looking to go to Uni for further studies which is great & I am enjoying being able to relax & unwind & spend time with family & friends & doing some reno's on my house... Thank you all for your support & advice & I wish everyone peace, love & joy in their future along with good times & good friends.
Cheers
Relly 59

Hello Relly

Thanks for the update, it's always good to hear positive news.

You sound so much more relaxed and content and ready to get on with the more enjoyable things in life. Working on the house is a great way of spending time and energy, doing something where you can see improvements gives a sense of satisfaction.

It's also good to hear your friend is going on to further studies and I wish her well.

Enjoy your new found peace of mind and it was so nice of you to remember us.

Regards
Jan

hello there reading the right books and logging on to the internet saved my sanity. Learning to forgive yourself for not recognising the symptoms esp if it was or is your child who suffers. Reading an amazing book The trouble with Alex by Melanie Allen. Jan you know how good this is. The author describes how she saw something wrong with her adopted child but could not name it and others simply saw no problems leaving the assumption that the family was the problem and not the child. I am writing down the similarities as I read.I too had an adopted child who presented with many of same problems which did not seem problems at the time really there were no major problems but rather overcompliance and sneakiness which covered up the real agenda of the child. If only I had had this book then I would have done things differently but thank god I heard about it on the radio. A brave lady to put pen to paper because to the uninitiated it seems like the mother is pushing the child too hard and even I found myself feeling for the child when she describes how the child pushed her to the limits and she became almost abusive in an attempt to reach her. You have to be firm and consistent with these children or they will soon overtake you and make your life hell. Not many would fit into a normal family. If you described the signs to a lay person or even some psychologists they may not see the isue. Staring or holding the gaze too long
impassive stares
ability to hold better eye contact than an adult
savours conflict amongst others
Ability to fake
Comes across perfect to others
rigid stare
doing stuff to iritate
no obvious show of emotion
constant need to control
one on one need for contact
purposeful misunderstanding

These are a few of the signs I agree with the author. The best help is to be had by realising that you need help if you have a child like this. You cannot force such a person to learn that which you know instinctively like morals or sense of empathy. Even criminals are not all like this. Like an alien coming to earth these children can mimic but not become.
I have decided I want to study this much further and open up my experience warts and all to help others. For the only true help for victims of this type of experience is to speak and learn with others who have experienced for the victims become the experts and hopefully society learns to contain and recognise what is happening.

Hello Damaskrose

I did get the Melanie Allen book after you posted the link to the radio programme. I also sent to the BBC and got a copy of the interview so thank you for putting that information on the forum.
The book is a must read for anyone with children with a personality disorder. I recognised so many of the things she describes which would probably be unnoticed by the 'untrained' eye. A few times I smiled when reading it because I was that crazy woman at times. We had a session teaching my partner's kid the alphabet and I still don't know whether he really didn't know it or not but was just pushing our buttons.
My copy of the book is bulging with post-it notes for things I want to refer back to. I would love to hear your comments on Ms Allen's conclusion.

That is so true what you say about learning to forgive yourself, I went one step further and allowed myself to admit that I didn't like my partner's kid let alone love him...he was unlovable. Adults are supposed to like/love children and when we don't we question ourselves.
I remember so clearly thinking 'why don't other people see what I do..there is something terribly wrong with this kid?' When you think about it why would they care?

It's only when people like us and Melanie Allen tell it like it is will we ever have a chance to be heard and get something put in place to get support. It sounds like shock tactics but we should tell about those things that we keep hidden within the home, things we work around that become almost 'normal'.Things that are not discussed at dinner parties when other people talk about their kids.

I hope you move has put you in a better place and that you are ready to tell us more. You must have so much experience to share but haven't lost any of your kindness.

You remind me of Lady Crown who has such integrity.

Regards
Jan

Hi jan you are such an inspiration and all who share also help others to heal i was so packed with guilt i was missing the point. Help comes to those who reach out and whether it is our partner or our child or other relative we the victim grieve and recover becoming stronger. Our 'flaw' is our integrity our humanity! This is how the aggressors get in our heads.