Hello forum -
I'm writing out of deep concern for my daughter, in her early 20s, living at home with us. Up until roughly half a year ago, she was a nice well-adjusted person, and we all had a pleasant, normal family life. About half a year ago, she became somewhat moody and gradually began to withdraw into herself. About 3 months ago she began exhibiting signs of anorexia. This is a seperate problem that has to be dealt with, but leads in to the psychopathic issue. 3 weeks ago (we think it was 3 weeks ago, according to what she says) she met a psychopath. Within 48 hours she dramatically declared he was the most amazing person she ever met, and that they already have big plans for the future together. In the initial few days, he was coming over to our house / leaving our house at all hours of the day, and we had no idea what was going on. However, in relatively short order, we banned him from showing up on our premises. Since then, he in fact has not shown up at our home. Our daughter occasionally drives to wherever he is - somewhere a round half hour away. All this has worsened our communications with our daughter. She is very belligerent and speaks to us very little. Doesnt want to have anything to do with a psychologist, therapist, etc. She claims we have problems, and she has none. We have tried to come up with background info on the psychopath but to no avail (cant find the residence, car is leased and info not available, cant get cellphone details, etc, workplace not verifiable, etc etc. Even his name is very suspect). We know he's a psychopath because a psychiatrist indicated it a couple days ago based on our inputs. Our daughter is blind to the dangers involved and covers up what could be any revealing details about him. She refuses to accepts our warnings and alarms about him (the opposite occurs, she demands we accept him - which we have told both him and her in no uncertain terms that he is simply an illegitimate human being for us). I would like to hear suggestions from the forum on what we as parents and friends can do. The good news is the psychiatrist says that their is a good chance the relationship with the psychopath could be short-term because this is quite often the case based on the details we gave hime. The bad news is she is currently exposed to danger and she is totally allying herself with him.

We (family and friends) have considered hiring a detective to try to get more info on this monster. However we have already been told that due to the nature of the story, and with little identifying info to start with, this could become expensive quickly, with results not guaranteed. Assuming we get something on him, we have even considered as a next step , at a discrete time and location, applying bodily violence to him (giving him a good "beating up" that he wont forget) as a method to deter him from our daughter (we know a couple thugs who for a fee would do it.) I know this a risk. We are law-abiding and non-violent people who have no record of crime or violence at any time in our lives. However, if this in all likelihood would get him out of her life we would definitely consider it. The question is, would it have the desired effect ? Or perhaps the opposite effect ? What consequences could it have on our daughter ? The psychopath himself doesnt seem to be outwardly violent - however he is intelligent, and has a lot of the tell-tale weirdness of a psychopath.

I eagerly await your responses.

Very concerned parent

Hi Ace,
This sounds very disturbing.
Your daughter seems to be in a place in life at the moment where she is vulnarable to such kind of influences.
Let me introduce myself to you. I am Segaya and I have a psychopath son and was brought up in a family with psychopath parents. There are several things I like to discuss with you.

For one..the plan of getting voilent for saving your daughter...
Do you really think that will help? She thinks she is completely sane and knows what she is doing. Any interference from parents will only determine her in what she is doing.
The other thing in this is that when you are not violent people and use this 'beating up' then how do you think to deal with that in the future.
Moreover... The psychopaths is intellegent? Don't you think he can figure it out and come after you himself? Or worse take revange on your daughter.
I personnaly think violence is never the answer.
I do think that getting in a fight with a psychopath is loosing for sure for where you have a concious and feelings, he has non. So the steps he will take will go always further than yours.

Your daughter is at an age where she has to make her own decissions and is not longer under your control. The only way she will learn is by experience. I know this is so hard to hear and is so very painfull. Think back when you yourself were young... your parents will have wornd you for several things and still you didn't listen and went your own way. So will your daughter.
She has to learn for herself and I think the only thing you can do is be a save heaven for her. When she knows that whatever happens she is welcome in your house and heart this will bring her back to you in time.
Maybe, when you speak to her in not so nice words about her friend then make clear that you love her and are concerned. That you know she has the right of making her own decissions but that you will always be there for her when things go wrong then this will be a reinsurence for both of you.
Just sit and wait...This will pass and then it is time to pick up the peaces. Any interference now will turn her away form you I think.

I do think the psychologist has stick his neck out by telling this man is a psychopath. It is not so very easy to tell when not knowing the person. Meeting a person and knowing the signs makes that very easy!! So that is a bit confusing isn't it.

have a little trust in you daughter. You rised her in the best way you could and must have a little trust in that fact too. The way she is withholding so much information is a sign of it's own..Probably she knows already thing are not the way that she expected it to be... Being happy about a relationship gives a different attitude doesn't it!!!!

Most of the time the thing you are fighting is staying right in you face.....Giving it more energy will make it grow... So the best thing I can advise you is; Let go....
Give your daughter the right to live her life and just be there somewhere in the background... waiting for her to get back to you and will be ready to face up to what has happend.
When you need to say things, than use this forum for expressing what is bothering you, but leave your daughter be...Not intervening means she will learn more and quicker then when you talk to her in a bad way about her boyfriend.it will only make that she will defend him even more.

Maybe there is help for later you can look for now.So you will be prepared when she will return?
Regards Segaya

Hello Segaya -

Wow, thanks for your quick response to my post today. That fact that you have had, I suppose unfortunately, exposure to psychopaths in your family, makes me sit up and seriously consider what you have to say. Thinking about what you said about not employing violence against the psychopath makes sense. The optimal outcome - he gets beaten up, goes into his hole and never is seen or heard from again is one thing. But considering the other outcomes makes it much less attractive. Examples: (1) He comes back and harms in some way my daughter/myself/wife/other daughter, (2) He doesnt come back, but I worry for months and years that he might, (3) My daughter somehow has negative side-effects by the whole thing, (4) The situation gets out of control and the police get involved and involve me somehow... Youre right, Segaya: NOT a good idea. As I said, we are moral and very decent people and the whole thing would trouble me regardless of the outcome.

The psychiatrist who declared the person involved with my daughter a psychopath after a long discussion in which he asked me many questions seems to make sense and sounds reasonable to me. This happened only a few days ago, and since then I have read a large degree of material on the Internet on the subject. Sure enough, based on what I read, most of the signs of a psychopath seem to be in this guy: (1) superficial charm, (2) grand sense of self-worth, (3) big-time liar, (4) manipulative, (5) impulsive, (6) sense of extreme entitlement (very possessive of my daughter) etc. Very hard to believe that all this is coincidental in his case and therefore he is 'normal' but simply has these attributes. I'm just praying that one of the other common attributes of psychopaths - "prone to short term relationships" - happens, and happens quickly in our case...

Youre right, a person who is in their early 20s is on their own, as much as I want to interfere and shout your making a big mistake. As you say, when I was that age I was already quite independent, graduated university, working overseas, but in contrast living a wholesome and clean life. Yeah, its extremely painful to watch, she'll have to deal with it herself. As much as her immediate and very large extended family love her, are very concerned for her, can help her materially or otherwise, we can only pray that whatever harm comes her way is limited. We have already told her that no matter what, if she is in any deep physical or emotional danger we can help immediately.

Then there is her other problem, anorexia, which is serious too. On that, she doesnt want to admit she has a problem either - this is typical of anorexics, most of them at least initially dont admit to having a problem. We can only be ready to help when she asks for it. The psychiatrist said, relatively speaking, this is a lesser problem at this time than being involved with a psychopath.

Its all so sad, scary, frustrating, etc on us. She really is a beautiful and bright kid. She has many talents and can go far in life, and did so up to a point not so long ago. I just pray God gives her wisdom to avoid danger and to follow positive paths in life.

Thanks again, Segaya, for your support, and if OK Ill want your opinion on things as they continue to develop.

Hi Ace,
I am so glad that what I said to you made sence in your opinion. It is so hard isn't it to see your child slip and knowing that there isn't a thing you can do about it.
Consider youself 'lucky' for she is not a pychopath herself. This will be temporarely in your life.
There will come a day where she not only sees what is happening, for it seems that she sees it already, but will act on that. As long as she thinks she is in love with him she will stay under his influence. What you are saying about a loving family and also an extended family that is very close is giving me the confidence she will be back to you.
Although the anorecia seems to be a whole different problem I wonder if it has a relationship with her being with this man...
Doesn't it all have to do with selfesteem? The anorexia that has to proof she is somebody ( for she is the one who doubts that) and the friend who is so overwelming in her presents?
I know there is a lot more to anorexia then I can tell here, but this is in a nuteshell.

I wonder indeed if the psychiatrist is right by saying that the anorexia is the lesser problem. I think I understand his point of view.... The anorexia is within herself, the psychopath is something in the outside world that is just passing by....
But,isn't it so that all we do, say, think and don't do, say and think, is telling something about who we are..And seen from that perspective... doesn't her being in the company of this psychopath tell us something about her state of mind on this?

Because she is not telling anything about her live with him, while always been in a warm loving and inviting family could mean she is not feeling save and loved at all..Admitting that will be hard. Esspecially because of the discussion that went on about the anorexia?
I think it is common in human beings that admitting to be wrong is hard to do, and it sure is for young people for they seem to have to proof something.
Maybe even admitting she is wrong about the man, in her mind, is making weak and admitting to being wrong about the anorexia is coming very, very close and that will scare her a lot. I hope you understand what I mean to say. I am not english speaking so I just try to make clear what is on my mind... putting words to it is quit difficult sometimes...

Anorexia is a serious diseas and I am so glad you take it that way. Understanding that you have to wait till she sees it, is a big step in accepting who she is and that she is her own person. I hope this knowing will make it a bit easier on you for accepting that in the situation with this man there is also nothing you can do about it..
Just wait... and wait... and be patient.

You mentioned there could be help for her materially.....
I understand where you are coming from ...but;

And this is just a thought I have, and like all, it is up to you to put it in the situation you are in....

When a child is addicted to whatever.... drugs, gambling, alcohol, people..... the parents want to help... Materially, emotionally, they want to do whatever they can to help their child to get better again and just take they're place in the family.
When a child is addicted to drugs and alcohol and gambling and so on..matterial things, we can see quit clear what to do or not..But what if the addiction is food and a man?
Isn't it the same with every addiction????
As long as we give any kind of help, all we seem to do is helping the addiction.
Giving money forinstance is helping the situation to go on as it is..there is no need to change it, for the help is there anyway!!!

It seems so hard for parents to really, really, let go....
I will give an example. If you see something fall into a deep pit it will fall faster if nothing is holding it back......
It will end up on the bottum of the pit much easier and quicker then when there are obstacals on the way who will slow down the fall, or even prevent it for a while to go further down......
The same goes when talking about people with addictions.
They have to learn their lesson..And they have to do it on their own terms and their own way.
Helping them with finances, stuff, food etcetra is helping them to stay in the situation and contineu doing what is not right for themselves.
As long as they are not on the bottum of their own pit...( and who knows how deep or shallow that is?)they will never be ably to use the bottum as an outlet to jump up again..

This is very scary to do for parents..I now by own experience.... but sometimes it is the only way to really help.
Now, I am not in you situation and don't know all the ins and outs of it and am talking in general here., so I hope you got some help from this information. I take it you will have more contact with this psychiatrist and maybe you can discuss things with this person, for some help for you and the other parent and maybe sibblings is in place.

Ofcourse you can ask for opinions on this forum. That is exactly why this forum is started by Dianna!!! And ofcourse I will read you postings and I am sure many people will and probably you will get more reactions then only mine. I will react and give an opinion if possible and when I can help I will.
take courage and trust in what the future is holding for you and your daughter
love Segaya

Hello Ace

I understand how difficult this situation is for you as a parent and I agree with everything Segaya has said.
Violence against this person is the worst thing you can do, this would turn you into a criminal and if you get prosecuted it would destroy all your lives. Your daughter would have a weapon to use against you and how would that help her or the rest of your family? How could you live with your conscience?

I know it must feel like an impossible task but you have to stand back and let her get on with what she is doing. The longer you keep trying will only give her something to fight against. All you can do is leave the 'door' open for when she needs to walk back in. When she comes back there should be no barriers she has to go through to get in. It's a bit like the prodigal son.

Your daughter is doing what many others of her age do but if she is involved with a person with a personality disorder it is much more serious but it's just a waiting game now. You know there is nothing you can do or say that will make her do what you want. I presume you brought her up to have opinions and the strong character which she is using now.

Eating disorders are a way to control the only thing the person feels they alone can do, control their body. It's having low self esteem which may be to do with the fact that she is emotionally reliant on someone who she knows deep down is wrong.

Every attack on him will make her more defensive but it must be so difficult not to step in and do what is best for her. She needs to come to her own conclusions and feel able to tell you she has made mistakes and can come back to the family without any words of incrimination.

I do hope we can give you support through your ordeal.

Regards
Jan

Thanks Jan and Segaya for your support! I'm reading and thinking about all that you both wrote. Makes a lot of common sense.

Yes, our daughter has been in the past a reasonably well-adjusted person, and we very much love her and are proud of her, trying to raise her the best we could. With the onset of anorexia a number of months ago, she's clearly going through 'something', which is now much further compounded by this psychopath, but she doesnt want to talk about it. We've calmly suggested seeing a therapist, a psychologist, etc with or without us, but she absolutely doesnt admit their is any problem. So, as you have wisely suggested, we can and will only let things coast and she'll have to come to her conclusions whenever that might happen.

A few weeks weeks ago, a little after my daughter met the psychopath, my wife and I went to a psychologist specializing in anorexia to discuss the situation (before we knew in fact we were dealing with a psychopath). Right away, she declared that our daughter's main problem isnt anorexia, but something bigger without specifying what that may be. A good family friend of my wife, who happens to be a senior psychologist in a hospital and knows my daughter for many years, didnt use the "Psychopath" word, but strongly hinted at it, by saying that we should make clear to our daughter that if in the future, he tries to hurt her physically or verbally, we will always be there to immediately help her unconditionally and without judgement. Indeed, afterwards, I told this to my daughter.

Both the psychologist friend and pyschiatrist indicated that we are definitely doing the right thing by banning the psychopath from our home and refusing to have anything to do with him, together with trying to lead a normal home life as much as possible. Now that I am much better educated about psychopaths, explaining certain recent events involving my daughter become much clearer. Examples: (1) My daughter came with demands for money several days ago. After offering her a modest amount ( a couple hundred $ / month for the next few months only, to be spent on certain expenses) she initially accepted it and gave me a hug. The next day (probably after talking to the psychopath), she got angry, said she didnt want the money, claims we are rich people who are misers with our money. This behavior is UNPRECEDENTED from my daughter. She always had a reasonable approach to money, rarely asked for much, and never insulted us on the subject. It seems clear the psychopath is instigating all this. Having this knowledge now makes things much easier for my wife and I to deal with. Knowing that the psychopath wont get any resources from us through our daughter is reassuring. (2) Our daughter had a major fight with her sister (2 years younger). Her sister is a pleasant, happy, well-adjusted and well-liked person. She insulted her and belittled her - claiming she's living a useless life, her boyfriend doesnt love her, she doesnt respect her older sister, etc. etc. Again, my older daughter NEVER NEVER behaved this way before. They always had a stable relationship and never more than minor quarrels. Our younger daughter took it pretty hard, but we discussed it several times with her and she now understands who is driving all of this weirdness. I suppose we as a family have to stay as calm and collected as much as we can, not giving harsh reactions - its the best antitode against the psychopath, he's not getting any feedback behaviorally or materially from us, and hopefully this will balance my daughter out a little bit .

Again, I want to thank this forum for its support. Going through all of this makes me think of the excruciating pain that must exist for many of you who, due to life's circumstances, have a psychopath permanently in your environment (child psychopath, parent psychopath, etc).
May God protect us all.

ace

Hello Ace

It must be so difficult to watch a healthy, happy younf woman turn into someone you don't recognise. She is fortunate to have had a stable and well adjusted home life so hopefully she may begin to see the benefits of the life she had compared with what she has now and will choose to return to it.

As far as I know Anorexia is always a symptom of something else, it is triggered by something, it's not like catching flu. It is also addictive and all addicts are in denial so it's not surprising your daughter is rejecting anyone trying to tell her the truth. The more the person loses weight can make them feel they are getting more control.

I admire your strength not to give into your daughter financially as it will only prolong the problem. It's amazing the draw someone like this man has on a normally sensible, rational person. I would guess that he is setting the scenes for her to enact when she comes to you, the games and manipulation will slowly unfold no doubt but you are prepared.

If this man is a psychopath, and none of us are qualified to say, then he will fit the pattern. If he cannot control you he may well leave you alone, they don't like anyone being able to see through them, it takes their power away.

I hope we can give you some comfort knowing you can talk to us at the forum and get balanced opinions. Many of the members have similar experiences and it's so helpful to be able to talk to others who understand what you are going through. Sometimes the frustration breaks out and we just need to let it out. Some members have found the professionals they have dealt with have less knowledge than they do about being around personality disordered people and the advice they give. if any, is not practical-it comes from text books. Some things are easy to say but virtually impossible to put into practice.

Let us know how you get on.

Regards
Jan

Hi Ace,
From what you tell about the normal behavior of your daughter it seems that this is a fase she has to go through in her life. We so much like to keep problems and pain from our children, but at a certain point we have to realize we can't. They have to learn through experience themselves and this way get to know in depth who they are.
This ( going through experiences)is a good thing although mostly it doesn't present itself that way !!!

it is so hard to let go, especally when the family was as close as you describe it.
I hope you as parents can trust the things you teached your daughter. in the long run she can't deny who she is and will return. She doesn't feel happy, that is obvious!
The more she can trust her family to welcome her the sooner this will happen, I think.
it is sad she is fighting with her sister over all those thing, on the other hand it seems clear to me that se still feels save enough with you and your other daughter to get into fights and return afterwards..When she would be scared she wouldn't fight OR wouldn't return after that... scared that it is hold against her.
It is known that the person you feel the safest with is the one you fight with the most. So I hope you can take some courage from that!
This time in you live will be very frustrating and I hope you have enough strenght together to go through it and stay as close as possible. Don't let this come in the way , or as less as possible, of your normal live, for that is exaclty why psychopaths are doing what they do.That is where their power is in.
Indeed the best thing you can do is ignore him...He just doesn't exist and therefore he can't get to you; not physical, not mentally and not emotionally. This way you keep strong for the moment your daughter will return. And trust it; she will.. it will take time, and a lot of patient and when returning it won't be over, But she will see, and is seeing already that things are not right and that she doesn't belong in that world the psychopath is living in.

I am so glad you have this people in your enviorment that can help you. The psychologist and the friend who knows where they are talking about. I hope you take adventage of that and get all the help they can offer.
For what I read from you, you are a intelligent person who isn't afraid to go after the knowledge that is needed to survive this. So keep on doing so and know that when you need to talk; we are here!!!
greetings Segaya.

Hi again forum,
Thanks once more for your inputs, it all definitely helps my morale !!

I have another question I would like to float to you. Is it worthwhile to to hire a private investigator to try and uncover info on the psychopath associated with my daughter ? As far as I can tell, everything we know about him is a giant lie, including his name. I couldnt verify his stories about his work - "works in a very successful family electronics business, employing 400 people" the name of which doesnt exist, nor any such website ; "I come from a wealthy family - my parents reside in a nearby town called ..." - I checked and nobody there by that name; his car is leased and the leasing company will not give me details of who he is; I have been unable to get any identifying details on his his cellphone; He claims to live in an expensive house in a nearby town - again, there is no listing there for him; He (and my daughter) refuse to indicate how they met; etc etc. It should be noted that my daughter has never slept overnight at his 'residence', wherever that may be.
We did hire an investigator to perform an initial check and he couldnt come up with anything. He said the next step would be to track my daughter's movements, to see when, where, how often she now meets the psychopath. Since the psychopath doesnt show up at our house anymore, this would probably be somewhat of a logistical effort as well as a significant expense.
My wife and some other friends are not very inclined to do this. They say, why burn thousands of dollars trying to see where this guy goes and possibly who he is and past history - and even then there's no guarantee the investigator will succeed. And besides, what would we do with the information ? On the other hand, my feeling and that of several other family members is "knowledge is power". If we know more about him, it strengthens us, even if we are passive and dont actually do anything with the info for the time being.

Suggestions ??
Thx
ace

Hello Ace

It is only natural to want to find out all you can about this man when your daughter has such an odd relationship with him. I agree knowledge is power but hiring a private detective will be a very expensive way of finding anything out about him. You have come up with nothing so far and that gives a big indication that his background is extremely suspicious. If you did find incriminating evidence against him would you have the urge to confront your daughter with it or would you be able to sit on it until the time is right?

In the UK we have an electoral roll and if a person like him was not included then it would be highly suspicious as he has 'a successful family business'. I don't know if you have anything similar where you live. He would also be on a company register if he is a director of a company, the company would be listed somewhere anyway.

The other possibility is he may have a criminal record, could you find out about that? He may have one or many convictions and spent a lot of time in prison over the years.
Have you tried just putting his name in Google? Is it possible you can approach the local police to ask their advice.

I don't know how much information you can get from the tax department. I think in the US it is possible for members of the public to get information on a person's taxes, perhapd Di knows about this, again maybe there is a similar possibility where you live.

I think you will need to find creative ways of getting the information you are searching for. Maybe tell your daughter something like you will send her a monthly allowance to 'his address' and see the reaction?????
As she still lives with you this wouldn't be an option but I just use it as an example of something you could try to make your daughter aware, coming to her own conclusions that things don't add up when excuses are made why it couldn't be done.

If you have time and the town he supposedly lives in is not too far away it might satisfy your need to search if you visited and tried to find 'his family business' or the area he 'lives'. Even just knowing the layout of the area could show his lack of knowledge IF you ever had a conversation with him. Trap him in other words.

Hiring a detective is legal and will not cause harm to anyone but will the outcome justify the expense? If your daughter (or he) found out before you had anything useful to use against him it could cause a rift that would be difficult to mend.
Perhaps do a little more searching yourself and think about it a bit longer.

Saying this, if I had the money and it was me I think I would do it -and if I approached you asking for advice what would you say to me?

We can only hope it won't be long before the alarm bells start ringing for your daughter and you get the information you want.

Maybe some other members will have some suggestions for you, things that they may have tried.

Regards
Jan