Hello forum -
I'm writing out of deep concern for my daughter, in her early 20s, living at home with us. Up until roughly half a year ago, she was a nice well-adjusted person, and we all had a pleasant, normal family life. About half a year ago, she became somewhat moody and gradually began to withdraw into herself. About 3 months ago she began exhibiting signs of anorexia. This is a seperate problem that has to be dealt with, but leads in to the psychopathic issue. 3 weeks ago (we think it was 3 weeks ago, according to what she says) she met a psychopath. Within 48 hours she dramatically declared he was the most amazing person she ever met, and that they already have big plans for the future together. In the initial few days, he was coming over to our house / leaving our house at all hours of the day, and we had no idea what was going on. However, in relatively short order, we banned him from showing up on our premises. Since then, he in fact has not shown up at our home. Our daughter occasionally drives to wherever he is - somewhere a round half hour away. All this has worsened our communications with our daughter. She is very belligerent and speaks to us very little. Doesnt want to have anything to do with a psychologist, therapist, etc. She claims we have problems, and she has none. We have tried to come up with background info on the psychopath but to no avail (cant find the residence, car is leased and info not available, cant get cellphone details, etc, workplace not verifiable, etc etc. Even his name is very suspect). We know he's a psychopath because a psychiatrist indicated it a couple days ago based on our inputs. Our daughter is blind to the dangers involved and covers up what could be any revealing details about him. She refuses to accepts our warnings and alarms about him (the opposite occurs, she demands we accept him - which we have told both him and her in no uncertain terms that he is simply an illegitimate human being for us). I would like to hear suggestions from the forum on what we as parents and friends can do. The good news is the psychiatrist says that their is a good chance the relationship with the psychopath could be short-term because this is quite often the case based on the details we gave hime. The bad news is she is currently exposed to danger and she is totally allying herself with him.

We (family and friends) have considered hiring a detective to try to get more info on this monster. However we have already been told that due to the nature of the story, and with little identifying info to start with, this could become expensive quickly, with results not guaranteed. Assuming we get something on him, we have even considered as a next step , at a discrete time and location, applying bodily violence to him (giving him a good "beating up" that he wont forget) as a method to deter him from our daughter (we know a couple thugs who for a fee would do it.) I know this a risk. We are law-abiding and non-violent people who have no record of crime or violence at any time in our lives. However, if this in all likelihood would get him out of her life we would definitely consider it. The question is, would it have the desired effect ? Or perhaps the opposite effect ? What consequences could it have on our daughter ? The psychopath himself doesnt seem to be outwardly violent - however he is intelligent, and has a lot of the tell-tale weirdness of a psychopath.

I eagerly await your responses.

Very concerned parent

Hi Ace,
This sounds very disturbing.
Your daughter seems to be in a place in life at the moment where she is vulnarable to such kind of influences.
Let me introduce myself to you. I am Segaya and I have a psychopath son and was brought up in a family with psychopath parents. There are several things I like to discuss with you.

For one..the plan of getting voilent for saving your daughter...
Do you really think that will help? She thinks she is completely sane and knows what she is doing. Any interference from parents will only determine her in what she is doing.
The other thing in this is that when you are not violent people and use this 'beating up' then how do you think to deal with that in the future.
Moreover... The psychopaths is intellegent? Don't you think he can figure it out and come after you himself? Or worse take revange on your daughter.
I personnaly think violence is never the answer.
I do think that getting in a fight with a psychopath is loosing for sure for where you have a concious and feelings, he has non. So the steps he will take will go always further than yours.

Your daughter is at an age where she has to make her own decissions and is not longer under your control. The only way she will learn is by experience. I know this is so hard to hear and is so very painfull. Think back when you yourself were young... your parents will have wornd you for several things and still you didn't listen and went your own way. So will your daughter.
She has to learn for herself and I think the only thing you can do is be a save heaven for her. When she knows that whatever happens she is welcome in your house and heart this will bring her back to you in time.
Maybe, when you speak to her in not so nice words about her friend then make clear that you love her and are concerned. That you know she has the right of making her own decissions but that you will always be there for her when things go wrong then this will be a reinsurence for both of you.
Just sit and wait...This will pass and then it is time to pick up the peaces. Any interference now will turn her away form you I think.

I do think the psychologist has stick his neck out by telling this man is a psychopath. It is not so very easy to tell when not knowing the person. Meeting a person and knowing the signs makes that very easy!! So that is a bit confusing isn't it.

have a little trust in you daughter. You rised her in the best way you could and must have a little trust in that fact too. The way she is withholding so much information is a sign of it's own..Probably she knows already thing are not the way that she expected it to be... Being happy about a relationship gives a different attitude doesn't it!!!!

Most of the time the thing you are fighting is staying right in you face.....Giving it more energy will make it grow... So the best thing I can advise you is; Let go....
Give your daughter the right to live her life and just be there somewhere in the background... waiting for her to get back to you and will be ready to face up to what has happend.
When you need to say things, than use this forum for expressing what is bothering you, but leave your daughter be...Not intervening means she will learn more and quicker then when you talk to her in a bad way about her boyfriend.it will only make that she will defend him even more.

Maybe there is help for later you can look for now.So you will be prepared when she will return?
Regards Segaya

Hello Segaya -

Wow, thanks for your quick response to my post today. That fact that you have had, I suppose unfortunately, exposure to psychopaths in your family, makes me sit up and seriously consider what you have to say. Thinking about what you said about not employing violence against the psychopath makes sense. The optimal outcome - he gets beaten up, goes into his hole and never is seen or heard from again is one thing. But considering the other outcomes makes it much less attractive. Examples: (1) He comes back and harms in some way my daughter/myself/wife/other daughter, (2) He doesnt come back, but I worry for months and years that he might, (3) My daughter somehow has negative side-effects by the whole thing, (4) The situation gets out of control and the police get involved and involve me somehow... Youre right, Segaya: NOT a good idea. As I said, we are moral and very decent people and the whole thing would trouble me regardless of the outcome.

The psychiatrist who declared the person involved with my daughter a psychopath after a long discussion in which he asked me many questions seems to make sense and sounds reasonable to me. This happened only a few days ago, and since then I have read a large degree of material on the Internet on the subject. Sure enough, based on what I read, most of the signs of a psychopath seem to be in this guy: (1) superficial charm, (2) grand sense of self-worth, (3) big-time liar, (4) manipulative, (5) impulsive, (6) sense of extreme entitlement (very possessive of my daughter) etc. Very hard to believe that all this is coincidental in his case and therefore he is 'normal' but simply has these attributes. I'm just praying that one of the other common attributes of psychopaths - "prone to short term relationships" - happens, and happens quickly in our case...

Youre right, a person who is in their early 20s is on their own, as much as I want to interfere and shout your making a big mistake. As you say, when I was that age I was already quite independent, graduated university, working overseas, but in contrast living a wholesome and clean life. Yeah, its extremely painful to watch, she'll have to deal with it herself. As much as her immediate and very large extended family love her, are very concerned for her, can help her materially or otherwise, we can only pray that whatever harm comes her way is limited. We have already told her that no matter what, if she is in any deep physical or emotional danger we can help immediately.

Then there is her other problem, anorexia, which is serious too. On that, she doesnt want to admit she has a problem either - this is typical of anorexics, most of them at least initially dont admit to having a problem. We can only be ready to help when she asks for it. The psychiatrist said, relatively speaking, this is a lesser problem at this time than being involved with a psychopath.

Its all so sad, scary, frustrating, etc on us. She really is a beautiful and bright kid. She has many talents and can go far in life, and did so up to a point not so long ago. I just pray God gives her wisdom to avoid danger and to follow positive paths in life.

Thanks again, Segaya, for your support, and if OK Ill want your opinion on things as they continue to develop.

Hi Ace,
I am so glad that what I said to you made sence in your opinion. It is so hard isn't it to see your child slip and knowing that there isn't a thing you can do about it.
Consider youself 'lucky' for she is not a pychopath herself. This will be temporarely in your life.
There will come a day where she not only sees what is happening, for it seems that she sees it already, but will act on that. As long as she thinks she is in love with him she will stay under his influence. What you are saying about a loving family and also an extended family that is very close is giving me the confidence she will be back to you.
Although the anorecia seems to be a whole different problem I wonder if it has a relationship with her being with this man...
Doesn't it all have to do with selfesteem? The anorexia that has to proof she is somebody ( for she is the one who doubts that) and the friend who is so overwelming in her presents?
I know there is a lot more to anorexia then I can tell here, but this is in a nuteshell.

I wonder indeed if the psychiatrist is right by saying that the anorexia is the lesser problem. I think I understand his point of view.... The anorexia is within herself, the psychopath is something in the outside world that is just passing by....
But,isn't it so that all we do, say, think and don't do, say and think, is telling something about who we are..And seen from that perspective... doesn't her being in the company of this psychopath tell us something about her state of mind on this?

Because she is not telling anything about her live with him, while always been in a warm loving and inviting family could mean she is not feeling save and loved at all..Admitting that will be hard. Esspecially because of the discussion that went on about the anorexia?
I think it is common in human beings that admitting to be wrong is hard to do, and it sure is for young people for they seem to have to proof something.
Maybe even admitting she is wrong about the man, in her mind, is making weak and admitting to being wrong about the anorexia is coming very, very close and that will scare her a lot. I hope you understand what I mean to say. I am not english speaking so I just try to make clear what is on my mind... putting words to it is quit difficult sometimes...

Anorexia is a serious diseas and I am so glad you take it that way. Understanding that you have to wait till she sees it, is a big step in accepting who she is and that she is her own person. I hope this knowing will make it a bit easier on you for accepting that in the situation with this man there is also nothing you can do about it..
Just wait... and wait... and be patient.

You mentioned there could be help for her materially.....
I understand where you are coming from ...but;

And this is just a thought I have, and like all, it is up to you to put it in the situation you are in....

When a child is addicted to whatever.... drugs, gambling, alcohol, people..... the parents want to help... Materially, emotionally, they want to do whatever they can to help their child to get better again and just take they're place in the family.
When a child is addicted to drugs and alcohol and gambling and so on..matterial things, we can see quit clear what to do or not..But what if the addiction is food and a man?
Isn't it the same with every addiction????
As long as we give any kind of help, all we seem to do is helping the addiction.
Giving money forinstance is helping the situation to go on as it is..there is no need to change it, for the help is there anyway!!!

It seems so hard for parents to really, really, let go....
I will give an example. If you see something fall into a deep pit it will fall faster if nothing is holding it back......
It will end up on the bottum of the pit much easier and quicker then when there are obstacals on the way who will slow down the fall, or even prevent it for a while to go further down......
The same goes when talking about people with addictions.
They have to learn their lesson..And they have to do it on their own terms and their own way.
Helping them with finances, stuff, food etcetra is helping them to stay in the situation and contineu doing what is not right for themselves.
As long as they are not on the bottum of their own pit...( and who knows how deep or shallow that is?)they will never be ably to use the bottum as an outlet to jump up again..

This is very scary to do for parents..I now by own experience.... but sometimes it is the only way to really help.
Now, I am not in you situation and don't know all the ins and outs of it and am talking in general here., so I hope you got some help from this information. I take it you will have more contact with this psychiatrist and maybe you can discuss things with this person, for some help for you and the other parent and maybe sibblings is in place.

Ofcourse you can ask for opinions on this forum. That is exactly why this forum is started by Dianna!!! And ofcourse I will read you postings and I am sure many people will and probably you will get more reactions then only mine. I will react and give an opinion if possible and when I can help I will.
take courage and trust in what the future is holding for you and your daughter
love Segaya

Hello Ace

I understand how difficult this situation is for you as a parent and I agree with everything Segaya has said.
Violence against this person is the worst thing you can do, this would turn you into a criminal and if you get prosecuted it would destroy all your lives. Your daughter would have a weapon to use against you and how would that help her or the rest of your family? How could you live with your conscience?

I know it must feel like an impossible task but you have to stand back and let her get on with what she is doing. The longer you keep trying will only give her something to fight against. All you can do is leave the 'door' open for when she needs to walk back in. When she comes back there should be no barriers she has to go through to get in. It's a bit like the prodigal son.

Your daughter is doing what many others of her age do but if she is involved with a person with a personality disorder it is much more serious but it's just a waiting game now. You know there is nothing you can do or say that will make her do what you want. I presume you brought her up to have opinions and the strong character which she is using now.

Eating disorders are a way to control the only thing the person feels they alone can do, control their body. It's having low self esteem which may be to do with the fact that she is emotionally reliant on someone who she knows deep down is wrong.

Every attack on him will make her more defensive but it must be so difficult not to step in and do what is best for her. She needs to come to her own conclusions and feel able to tell you she has made mistakes and can come back to the family without any words of incrimination.

I do hope we can give you support through your ordeal.

Regards
Jan

Thanks Jan and Segaya for your support! I'm reading and thinking about all that you both wrote. Makes a lot of common sense.

Yes, our daughter has been in the past a reasonably well-adjusted person, and we very much love her and are proud of her, trying to raise her the best we could. With the onset of anorexia a number of months ago, she's clearly going through 'something', which is now much further compounded by this psychopath, but she doesnt want to talk about it. We've calmly suggested seeing a therapist, a psychologist, etc with or without us, but she absolutely doesnt admit their is any problem. So, as you have wisely suggested, we can and will only let things coast and she'll have to come to her conclusions whenever that might happen.

A few weeks weeks ago, a little after my daughter met the psychopath, my wife and I went to a psychologist specializing in anorexia to discuss the situation (before we knew in fact we were dealing with a psychopath). Right away, she declared that our daughter's main problem isnt anorexia, but something bigger without specifying what that may be. A good family friend of my wife, who happens to be a senior psychologist in a hospital and knows my daughter for many years, didnt use the "Psychopath" word, but strongly hinted at it, by saying that we should make clear to our daughter that if in the future, he tries to hurt her physically or verbally, we will always be there to immediately help her unconditionally and without judgement. Indeed, afterwards, I told this to my daughter.

Both the psychologist friend and pyschiatrist indicated that we are definitely doing the right thing by banning the psychopath from our home and refusing to have anything to do with him, together with trying to lead a normal home life as much as possible. Now that I am much better educated about psychopaths, explaining certain recent events involving my daughter become much clearer. Examples: (1) My daughter came with demands for money several days ago. After offering her a modest amount ( a couple hundred $ / month for the next few months only, to be spent on certain expenses) she initially accepted it and gave me a hug. The next day (probably after talking to the psychopath), she got angry, said she didnt want the money, claims we are rich people who are misers with our money. This behavior is UNPRECEDENTED from my daughter. She always had a reasonable approach to money, rarely asked for much, and never insulted us on the subject. It seems clear the psychopath is instigating all this. Having this knowledge now makes things much easier for my wife and I to deal with. Knowing that the psychopath wont get any resources from us through our daughter is reassuring. (2) Our daughter had a major fight with her sister (2 years younger). Her sister is a pleasant, happy, well-adjusted and well-liked person. She insulted her and belittled her - claiming she's living a useless life, her boyfriend doesnt love her, she doesnt respect her older sister, etc. etc. Again, my older daughter NEVER NEVER behaved this way before. They always had a stable relationship and never more than minor quarrels. Our younger daughter took it pretty hard, but we discussed it several times with her and she now understands who is driving all of this weirdness. I suppose we as a family have to stay as calm and collected as much as we can, not giving harsh reactions - its the best antitode against the psychopath, he's not getting any feedback behaviorally or materially from us, and hopefully this will balance my daughter out a little bit .

Again, I want to thank this forum for its support. Going through all of this makes me think of the excruciating pain that must exist for many of you who, due to life's circumstances, have a psychopath permanently in your environment (child psychopath, parent psychopath, etc).
May God protect us all.

ace

Hello Ace

It must be so difficult to watch a healthy, happy younf woman turn into someone you don't recognise. She is fortunate to have had a stable and well adjusted home life so hopefully she may begin to see the benefits of the life she had compared with what she has now and will choose to return to it.

As far as I know Anorexia is always a symptom of something else, it is triggered by something, it's not like catching flu. It is also addictive and all addicts are in denial so it's not surprising your daughter is rejecting anyone trying to tell her the truth. The more the person loses weight can make them feel they are getting more control.

I admire your strength not to give into your daughter financially as it will only prolong the problem. It's amazing the draw someone like this man has on a normally sensible, rational person. I would guess that he is setting the scenes for her to enact when she comes to you, the games and manipulation will slowly unfold no doubt but you are prepared.

If this man is a psychopath, and none of us are qualified to say, then he will fit the pattern. If he cannot control you he may well leave you alone, they don't like anyone being able to see through them, it takes their power away.

I hope we can give you some comfort knowing you can talk to us at the forum and get balanced opinions. Many of the members have similar experiences and it's so helpful to be able to talk to others who understand what you are going through. Sometimes the frustration breaks out and we just need to let it out. Some members have found the professionals they have dealt with have less knowledge than they do about being around personality disordered people and the advice they give. if any, is not practical-it comes from text books. Some things are easy to say but virtually impossible to put into practice.

Let us know how you get on.

Regards
Jan

Hi Ace,
From what you tell about the normal behavior of your daughter it seems that this is a fase she has to go through in her life. We so much like to keep problems and pain from our children, but at a certain point we have to realize we can't. They have to learn through experience themselves and this way get to know in depth who they are.
This ( going through experiences)is a good thing although mostly it doesn't present itself that way !!!

it is so hard to let go, especally when the family was as close as you describe it.
I hope you as parents can trust the things you teached your daughter. in the long run she can't deny who she is and will return. She doesn't feel happy, that is obvious!
The more she can trust her family to welcome her the sooner this will happen, I think.
it is sad she is fighting with her sister over all those thing, on the other hand it seems clear to me that se still feels save enough with you and your other daughter to get into fights and return afterwards..When she would be scared she wouldn't fight OR wouldn't return after that... scared that it is hold against her.
It is known that the person you feel the safest with is the one you fight with the most. So I hope you can take some courage from that!
This time in you live will be very frustrating and I hope you have enough strenght together to go through it and stay as close as possible. Don't let this come in the way , or as less as possible, of your normal live, for that is exaclty why psychopaths are doing what they do.That is where their power is in.
Indeed the best thing you can do is ignore him...He just doesn't exist and therefore he can't get to you; not physical, not mentally and not emotionally. This way you keep strong for the moment your daughter will return. And trust it; she will.. it will take time, and a lot of patient and when returning it won't be over, But she will see, and is seeing already that things are not right and that she doesn't belong in that world the psychopath is living in.

I am so glad you have this people in your enviorment that can help you. The psychologist and the friend who knows where they are talking about. I hope you take adventage of that and get all the help they can offer.
For what I read from you, you are a intelligent person who isn't afraid to go after the knowledge that is needed to survive this. So keep on doing so and know that when you need to talk; we are here!!!
greetings Segaya.

Hi again forum,
Thanks once more for your inputs, it all definitely helps my morale !!

I have another question I would like to float to you. Is it worthwhile to to hire a private investigator to try and uncover info on the psychopath associated with my daughter ? As far as I can tell, everything we know about him is a giant lie, including his name. I couldnt verify his stories about his work - "works in a very successful family electronics business, employing 400 people" the name of which doesnt exist, nor any such website ; "I come from a wealthy family - my parents reside in a nearby town called ..." - I checked and nobody there by that name; his car is leased and the leasing company will not give me details of who he is; I have been unable to get any identifying details on his his cellphone; He claims to live in an expensive house in a nearby town - again, there is no listing there for him; He (and my daughter) refuse to indicate how they met; etc etc. It should be noted that my daughter has never slept overnight at his 'residence', wherever that may be.
We did hire an investigator to perform an initial check and he couldnt come up with anything. He said the next step would be to track my daughter's movements, to see when, where, how often she now meets the psychopath. Since the psychopath doesnt show up at our house anymore, this would probably be somewhat of a logistical effort as well as a significant expense.
My wife and some other friends are not very inclined to do this. They say, why burn thousands of dollars trying to see where this guy goes and possibly who he is and past history - and even then there's no guarantee the investigator will succeed. And besides, what would we do with the information ? On the other hand, my feeling and that of several other family members is "knowledge is power". If we know more about him, it strengthens us, even if we are passive and dont actually do anything with the info for the time being.

Suggestions ??
Thx
ace

Hello Ace

It is only natural to want to find out all you can about this man when your daughter has such an odd relationship with him. I agree knowledge is power but hiring a private detective will be a very expensive way of finding anything out about him. You have come up with nothing so far and that gives a big indication that his background is extremely suspicious. If you did find incriminating evidence against him would you have the urge to confront your daughter with it or would you be able to sit on it until the time is right?

In the UK we have an electoral roll and if a person like him was not included then it would be highly suspicious as he has 'a successful family business'. I don't know if you have anything similar where you live. He would also be on a company register if he is a director of a company, the company would be listed somewhere anyway.

The other possibility is he may have a criminal record, could you find out about that? He may have one or many convictions and spent a lot of time in prison over the years.
Have you tried just putting his name in Google? Is it possible you can approach the local police to ask their advice.

I don't know how much information you can get from the tax department. I think in the US it is possible for members of the public to get information on a person's taxes, perhapd Di knows about this, again maybe there is a similar possibility where you live.

I think you will need to find creative ways of getting the information you are searching for. Maybe tell your daughter something like you will send her a monthly allowance to 'his address' and see the reaction?????
As she still lives with you this wouldn't be an option but I just use it as an example of something you could try to make your daughter aware, coming to her own conclusions that things don't add up when excuses are made why it couldn't be done.

If you have time and the town he supposedly lives in is not too far away it might satisfy your need to search if you visited and tried to find 'his family business' or the area he 'lives'. Even just knowing the layout of the area could show his lack of knowledge IF you ever had a conversation with him. Trap him in other words.

Hiring a detective is legal and will not cause harm to anyone but will the outcome justify the expense? If your daughter (or he) found out before you had anything useful to use against him it could cause a rift that would be difficult to mend.
Perhaps do a little more searching yourself and think about it a bit longer.

Saying this, if I had the money and it was me I think I would do it -and if I approached you asking for advice what would you say to me?

We can only hope it won't be long before the alarm bells start ringing for your daughter and you get the information you want.

Maybe some other members will have some suggestions for you, things that they may have tried.

Regards
Jan

Hi Ace,
There is a lot to say about this....But I am very tired now and have to get some sleep. I come back to you tonight...( night is..here night,in my country!!! whhawhahw)
So see you soon oke.
Segaya

Hi Ace,

I was thinking a lot about that idea for a detective, and the more I think about it, the more I understand were you are coming from , but also the more I see the cons of that idea. What is the goal you are after, what is the purpose of all of this?

I think that what you want is enough knowledge so this man can't surprise you in a negative way anymore....and that you expect to get some proof to convince your daughter... and that you will know what you are up against?..This pretty much will som it up I think?
Jan pointed out some of the things already, so I will concentrate on other things oke...
How big a change do you think you have in succeeding in any of those goals?

The first one;
What is there to know more than you already do? You know this man is bad news, that he is a psychopath..this people are the worst kind there is...Trust me.... You will not be able to predict whatever his next step is what so ever...therefore you have to become a psychopath yourself and believe me again..you can't!!!
This people don't think the way we do....
I raised a psychopath son... no not true, I tried to rais him....He grew bigger, stronger, smarter, but ot more decent. And I learned one think through and through...... I will never be able to keep a step in front of him...The only thing I can do.. is to stay very close to who I am and listen to my intuition. My intuition will tell me clearout what is true and not..

A suggestion; Print the checklist of Dr.Hare... keep it with you for 1 day..only one day... And with everything you do, try to think as a psychopath.....
So in the morning you open the fridge door and you see there is only milk left for 1 person of your family..I bet you leaf it for the person who likes it the most? Wrong!!..Take it for you got nothing to do with being concerned for the others.

If you are in a shop and you are hungry then just take something without paying...You are today the psychopath aren't you and they don't care to pay..They are hungry so intitled to eat..... payed or not is not importend and not of any relevance...
When coming home you brag about something you make up at that point and if someone of your family talks back or even is brave enough to refutes the story you so 'cleverly' made up, you just become angry get a fit and threaten them..just like that...easy to do isnt it???
If you need or want something from them, you go charm them...keep in mind NOT because you are charming, you have a hidden agenda...this is the manipulation part.....
You have a bad day so you feel like breaking something. Your wife keeps this bijou on a sidetable in the livingroom. She is fond of it, for her mother who just past away, gave it to her on her last birthday... No matter, You feel like smashing it, so you do...
I think you get the picture? These are only small, small examples of what a psychopath can do on just an average day....Nothing big, nothing to shake about..just average...
How is it to keep on doing so for a day?
Can you keep up with it, or do you forget that you are the psychopath for that day?
That is what I mean...you will never be able to step in there footsteps...You don't think like they do, don't 'feel' like they do, dont't function like they do, you have a different mentallity and a different way of existing
I learned a little bit to think the way my son does...I did the same thing with my parents..I can..you wil be able also for a while...but at that border we allpsychopahty we will loose it/them..So, we can for a short while and keep ahead of them for a while even, but then I get lost..I completely forget to think like them and bammm there they have a grip on me before I know it....The thing is..they know your weak spots even before you know them. it doen't take time for them to get to know that much..somehow they are master psychologists.... And they will squees you if you are not carefull.....
So isn't it just enough to know he is bad, bad news????

Secondly you maybe willing to do all these things to warn you daughter and proof it on top of that so you can convince her;....
if you keep in mind how she usually behaved.... and you compare it with her current behavior and with the other signs she gives away... ( a psychopath will never do that this easy...)The fact that she is anorexic and the fights she made with her sister..the way she acted with the money..... it is clear isn't it..she knows!
But like we pointed out before, she doesn't want to know..She is in love and remember??? When people are in love they are blind.... They just don't see clear and they will make up all these excuses for the person they are in love with..
She is having a relation with a psycopath.....
Oke.. lets see what can happen;
You get prove that he is a thief and spend time in prison.. You tell her.....? what will her reaction be....??
Let's go for the nicest option.. She is in shock and gets angry with him..goes to him and demands an explenation....
Read the checklist now..... He will convince her of his thruthfullness and before you know it she is in your house shouting again for he told her that he is a changed man, he is in love with her now, and that made him realize that he doesn't want to live like that, that it were the circumstances who made him do this.. He was in a difficult place in time back then and other, bad people convinced him that this was the way out........bla blabla bla bla...... Guess who she is going to believe....
What wil this do for the relationship you have with her as parents...What harm do you cause....
On the other hand..afterwards she will know but isn't the demage done then already????
As it shown already...he is convincing her that you are the bad people and are treating her bad... Not enough money, mentally no support and so on.... he is charming and manipulative... who will win that fight???

And third; You want to know what you are up agianst....?

No one can predict the behavior of a psychopath.
If you think you know your lives partner very well, then you will be surprised that in a certain situation she/he will do exactly the opposite of what you thought he/she would do!!
Knowing all people are different and you will never be able to look inside somebody's head and heart you will never be surprised for you will know that..
SO, how do you want to predict the behavior of somebody who is not acting like a human at all?
I do think that is impossible....

On top of it all. A detective will cost you a lot of money. Most people cant just give that money away 'like that.Some even have to go in depts to do so.... is it worth that kind of costs??
It could take years to save that kind of money again. What do you really get back from all that effort and all that money.... Will your goals be met?
Really Ace..think of it again for I am very afraid you will be disappoited.

I hope to hear back from you soon.
keep up the good spirit and don't let this poison you own mind ad live.....
Love Segaya

Thanks Jan and Segaya for your very valuable inputs.
Jan, I've done most of what you suggested regarding trying to come up with info on the psychopath, but with no luck. We hired an investigator to do an initial quick check and he also couldnt come up with anything. The guy is a major league con artist which I guess is typical of many psychopaths. I showed Segaya's latest reply to my wife, and we are now convinced that Segaya's advice is the best way to go - her advice is not to proceed with further investigation. Thinking about it, in our case Segaya definitely is right. As an example, lets assume we find out where he lives, or at least sleeps, and we discover he cant hold a job and has been in trouble with the law over time. So what ? Presenting this info to our daughter would probably make her resent us even more for 'spying' on him and, as Segaya says, he will come up with alibis to explain it all away - and our daughter will accept whatever he has to say. As I may have mentioned earlier, our daughter is an intelligent person, and my wife believes that our daughter already knows much more about this pyschopath than we give credit. She accepts and loves him for whatever reasons may be. So our decision is to not go with an investigator. Segaya thank you so much for your excellent reasoning and you too Jan for your suggestions.

Unfortunately, our relationship with our daughter has over the last 2 weeks deteriorated. She hardly speaks to us and seems to be full of hate towards us, as much as we try to be nice and speak with her. She eats very little at home as well, with all her anorexic problems. Again, she was never like this in her life !! I spoke with the psychiatrist yesterday (he's the one who diagnosed the person she's involved with as a psychopath). He said our daughter is in a "perfect storm" - a combination of her anorexic / emotional state coupled with apparent incitement by the psychopath against us. He said deep down, she is still the good daughter she once was and will once again become. This statement encouraged me, but the situation is very hard on my wife. Its hard on me too, but at least I get up in the morning and go off to work - I have a successful high-tech career. My wife recently became unemployed, so she spends most of the day at home without enough diversions from our problems.

As I mentioned previously, as of a few weeks ago, the psychopath is not allowed around our house. We are a 2-car family. Our daughter does not have her own car, but we always were willing to let her use a car whenever she wanted. A couple of nights ago, around 10 PM, she asked for the car. We asked why - and she indicated she was going to see the psychopath. We simply said no, we will not allow you to use the car to go see him. She got upset, went in her room, and slammed the door. The next day, I spoke with my psychologist friend, and he says we should be more flexible on the car issue (he said shes not a teenager, shes an adult, and our position pushes her away from us and causes more antagonism). However, the psychiatrist told me yesterday, in a very direct and blunt way, that we did the right thing. He said setting very clear boundaries is something she desperately needs and in the future she will thank us for it, even if she is 22 years old and not a teenager. He reminded us that psychopaths are bad and dangerous people, and anything we do to make it more difficult for her logistically to see him is the correct thing to do. He said we have to be careful with psychologists on this issue. Jan, Segaya, others, what do you think ? I understand that we cannot interfere too much with our daughter's intent on being with the psychopath - she'll have to come to her own conclusions sooner or later. But it makes sense to me that if we make it more difficult for her logistically to see him its for her own good. We dont have to be partners in making it convenient for her to see him. Anyway, as far as I can tell, in the last few weeks, most of the effort in seeing him is coming from her - I dont believe he has made much effort in driving out to our area to pick her up / return her home.

Anyway, thanks once again for all your help. This forum is a great thing, and, you, Jan and Segaya, have already helped us very much in make correct decisions.

Regards to all,
Ace

Hello Ace,

I have been reading over your posts and am glad that you that have shared your situation. You already have a lot of wisdom from other members and I certainly agree with their comments. And I would like to offer some of the thoughts that I had as I read.

You have extended your unconditional hand to your daughter if this man is violent or otherwise hurts your daughter. But if this person is focused more on the financial benefits and demonstarting his grandiose notion of himself, then when he realisies his struting is ignored and he's not going to get the money he wants, he will soon move to more rewarding ground. I do hope this turns out to be the case.

I can understand your comment that this person is the greater threat to your daughter at this point, and as long as this man is around it will be difficult to focus on the underlying issues that may be present in the anorexia. Yet I also feel it is important not to lose sight of the underlying issues, of which the anorexia is a symptom, as these relate to your daughter directly and will still need to be dealt with when he's gone. The fact your daughter exhibited signs of anorexia so far prior to her recent meeting up with this person suggests to me "underlying issues" and that her relationship may be 'playing into' or 'playing out'. Given this man has only been around for a comparatively short while and her anorexia many months, it doesn't appear that this man removing himself is going to simply take the anorexia away with him. While I can understand your feeling that this situation obscures the anorexia perhaps there may be a way to hit two birds with one stone. At least to some degree. I'd just like to share these ideas with you and hope they offer something useful.

As Jan said, anorexia is essentially a control issue. Often very compliant and loving children become anorexic as a passive resistance/passive aggression turned against themselves. High achieving children also. It can also be about the fear of not being able to cope once separate from their parent/family. And hence can be seen at times as part of underlying family dynamics.

Sometimes in families that are very tight and where a child is usually complaint and respectful, they can sometimes separate a little later than do other children who separate earlier due to personality and family dynamics or who are pushed out by circumstances. Separation at a later age might involve an outside factor, a person who acts as a catalyst in the separation process, particularly in tight families, as it can mitigate any subconscious guilt.

On a level this catalyst figure can be seen as the reason for the separation. He's the reason she is standing up to you. It's not her rebellion against you - it's the boyfriend's influence. He's taking her away. And even in her mind it may be He's taking me away, not, im trying to leave.

Perhaps this man may be acting as the separation catalyst in this situation. I wonder if part of what may hold the attraction for her is that on some level he represents a move towards freedom, albeit at potentially great cost - depending on this man. And on a level she may equate taking away that separation catalyst - moving away from this man - as a return to a state she needs to grow beyond, but possibly doesn't feel able to take. If this is the case, she may feel, on an inner level, in a terrible bind. Physical adulthood doesn't automatically confer emotional maturity. Despite the achievements and her talents, she may actually have little confidence in herself. At least with this man she may believe she has someone apparently competent and successful to take her away without being totally alone. It's just unfortunate that the person she is involved with is so undesireable (although that may be part of the rebellion) and does not have her best interests at heart. But you have taken firm steps regarding this. The more you can side with you daughter, for what she may really be wanting, and not against him as such, then I believe the better for the situation.

I hope what I am trying to say makes some sense.

Also I just have a question. And my apologies if you have already answered this in your previous post. How old is this person? Is he much older?

One other thing I have been wondering - and I respect if you prefer not to answer - is what you hope to happen with your daughter once this person is gone? Perhaps you haven't had space to consider this yet, but I wonder. Do you hope that he will go away and that things will return to normal? Do you fear something may be irrevocably changed? I wonder just what scenario you might picture at that time.

Best wishes to you.

Sapphira

Hello Ace

I was going to ask the question of this man's age but Sapphira has already done so. I may be wrong but I presumed he was a bit older than your daughter. What Sapphira said makes a lot of sense and to a certain extent I'm saying the same things.
Anorexia is a complex issue and often related to not wanting to grow up. By starving the body it not only makes it look more childlike but also stops menstruation taking the woman back to a being a 'child'.
Could it be that she is not ready to be a woman and leave home because she has up until now had a happy home life but feeling the time has come when she should be out on her own? I wonder if Sapphira is thinking this man might represent a father figure who can support such a move yet she knows in her heart neither the relationship or the move is right.

I think it's a good decision not to go with the detective if you have already explored all the other options and come up with nothing. This man has either covered his tracks very well or he has an assumed identity. Not unusual for psychopath as they use anyone available for their parasitic behaviour.

That's a tricky one about the two professional points of view, I can see the merits of both and also your natural reaction as a parent.

As a parent the natural reaction is not to provide any encouragement or means to help your daughter see the man. If she was a child that is exactly the right response but is she a child or a woman? Firm boundaries are what give a child security however much they rebel against them. I always think of parenting as a 'dictatorship to a democracy' as the child grows up and learns to handle freedom to make choices.

Then there is the issue of rebellion, that in itself is a childlike reaction to parental concern, has she ever discussed the relationship with you as an adult to adult before it became obvious things were not right hence the rebellion as she feels it's impossible to 'talk' to you now?

As I write I'm just beginning to wonder whether she is pushing you to behave like the protective father but not really understanding why she is doing that. Does she feel insecure and that is a reason the anorexia? The more I think about it I get the feeling that this highly intelligent woman is worried about having total responsibility for her own life. She is facing a horrible dilemma, this man comes along when she is thinking she needs to become independent from her parents but why on earth leave that life where she is happy and secure????

Being refused the car-did she try to come up with a cogent argument why she should use it or again was the reponse just an excuse for a childlike reaction for you to protect her again. She will have a hard time finding a partner that cares and respects her as much as you do, I can imagine how she would feel about that and doesn't want to let go of what she has.

On a practical level if this man is a true psychopath he will not stay with your daughter long if she is starved of funds to provide for his needs. This is difficult as she might resent you for preventing her from helping him. I'm bearing in mind the big rift that could open up and building bridges will take longer the bigger it gets.

Does she have her own finacial means or is she still in education, I apologise if I have missed this in an earlier post? What about her friends, do she still see them or has he started isolating her from everyone else as he is with her family?

I do think time will solve a lot of these issues one by one as psychopaths are known for having many short lived relatonships but I just hope when the times comes and he leaves for good he doesn't take your daughter's fragile ego with him. She will need all the cushioning available ready for her fall. It would be idealistic thinking she will decide to get rid of him before he does.

I hope you can keep positive and I admire the way you are able to look past the present behaviour and not rise to it. It is the only way to show her that her family is still the same, it is her who has changed. She has the choice to slot back in whenever she chooses.

If your wife feels she would like to get some support we will respond to her a soon as possible if she posts on the forum.

Regards
Jan

Dear Sapphira and Jan -

Once more, thanks for your posts. They show a lot of depth and breadth and I am most grateful to you. You offer a lot of food for thought and let me respond to some of your latest points.

(1) Regarding what seems to be this guy's dominant motive, my guess, and its not more than a guess, is that its financial. Again, its based on several conversations with this guy over the course of around 10 days or so until we decided not to speak with him. He seemed to be pretty intelligent when speaking about financial things, talked about himself often in financially glowing terms ("my folks live in an expensive neighborhood", "I am part of a successful family business", etc). Plus, he seemed to incite my daughter against us financially as I mentioned in an earlier post. Additionally, being that he was at our house several times, he saw that we live a comfortable upper-middle class life. We maintain a very clean, pleasant, optimistic and tidy home - this is more a credit to my wife than anything to do with money, nevertheless our home exhibits a sense of comfort and well-being. For the record though, there is nothing flashy in our lifestyle, and we're not "rich", visibly or otherwise. The psychopath I'm sure noticed all this. He didnt talk in violent terms. Still he definitely talked "weird"on a number of occasions leaving us a sense of unease. I hope and pray you are right - that he will see he cant milk us for much, and then move on.

(2) The psychopath appears to be about 30 years old (vs my daughter, aged 22.5). There are signs he's a cocaine user. He had a running nose and cough while we saw him. One day, my wife peaked into his backpack and saw that the only thing there was a roll of toilet tissue.

(3) Your points regarding the longer-term anorexia issue is correct. Once, lets hope, the psychopath moves on, the underlying problems with my daughter of course will still remain. The issue you raised of separation fear is very intriguing, although somewhat complicated, and I think may possibly explain a relationship between the current episode with the psychopath and her anorexic situation for the last several months. Let me provide some more background which I think sheds more light on this direction. We live overseas in Israel. I was born and raised in the US, and my kids were born in the US as well, my wife is Israeli, as were my parents who emigrated to the US prior to my birth. Thus, we feel at home both in Israel and in the US. We've been living here for 17 years. I know that Israel is in the news a lot, but please filter that out. Day-to-day life here is actually pretty quiet and not too different from most other western countries (in marked contrast to what the media presents). My daughter expressed intent about 6 months ago to move to New York to study art at one of the universities there. She started taking an art prep program locally to develop a portfolio, as well as studying for the SAT entrance tests. She spent a lot of time in seclusion working on her paintings which probably wasn't good in retrospect because she became more and more socially isolated. She even wrote a book during this period, although she didn't let us read it. I actually tried to talk her out of her NY plans - (a) I suggested she get a BA locally and then consider going elsewhere if she wanted to continue after that (b) I couldn't finance all her tuition and living costs for a private US university ($50,000 year !!) - max, maybe half of it, (c) she was aiming for a couple very elite universities and I told her it was very competitive to get in - its not guaranteed she would get in. Nevertheless, she persisted with her plans. She initially wanted to live a year in NY and start studying in 2009. Anyway, she was scheduled to fly to NYC June 26, 2008 (just a week ago). She met the psychopath around June 3 (we think). That is, 3 weeks before departure. Hard to believe its a coincidence. Around June 5, she was already making extreme statements such as "This man is the greatest thing that ever happened to me" and "I see myself living the rest of my life with him". My guess is he right away started manipulating her telling her things she was in need of hearing. On June 6 she declared that she is canceling her plans for the US. Sapphira, all this definitely seems to show a strong indicator for the separation fear theory you presented, and this person acting as a catalyst towards successful separation. Another indicator towards separation fear is my wife's medical history. She has had non-Hodgkins lymphoma on-and-off since 1989 (almost 20 years). Over this time, she has had 5 occurrences of it. Each time, she was treated with chemo, but quickly recovered and went into full remission each time.(Thank God she has now been fine for the last 6 years.) But my daughter grew up with a mother that went in and out of this a number of times - this no doubt affected her and caused her fear.

I mentioned the separation fear theory as being very intriguing but also "complicated". Complicated because from ages 18 through 21, our daughter served in the army here. (This is an activity that is a norm amongst males & females here at that age.) Her military service was actually quite successful in that she voluntarily went on to become a field officer in military intelligence and received several awards of recognition including 2 from the army's chief-of-staff. She showed strong leadership skills and was responsible for around 40 women soldiers in the field, often in rugged and uncomfortable conditions. Ironically, she had to often deal with emotional / psychological issues of some of her soldiers. She came home for weekends typically once every 2 weeks. After leaving the army, she in fact lived on her own for 6 months, working as a waitress for the time being to save up a little money, but decided to return home in preparation for her plans leading up to going to the US. These points perhaps goes against the separation fear theory but is a point for 'perfectionist behavior theory' common amongst anorexics.

Bottom line, I think there is something to the "separation fear" playing into all of this - we'll have to pay attention to this going forward.

(4) Regarding what we hope will happen with our daughter once the psychopath winds his way out: As any loving parents would want, we want our daughter to be normal and happy. Right now, she's angry, confused, and not healthy. She could be broken-hearted if and when he soon leaves. Has something happened that is irrevocable ? I hope not. We're ready to forgive her wild behavior once he's gone. The most frustrating thing for us regarding the anorexia is that she adamantly refuses to admit she has any problem. Refuses to discuss it at all. I guess its a control issue, as they say. From what Ive read, most anorexics have trouble admitting they have a problem. This caused and causes stress at home as she gets progressively thinner. The challenge will be to somehow have her see that she needs to deal with this differently.

What can we aim for in the immediate term ? Hopefully the psychopath will move on. Until then, life seems like "white-water rafting" - we're just trying to stay on the raft, and make sure our daughter stays on her raft. If we get into calmer waters, we definitely will try to get a handle on the issues you have raised and discussed above.

Thank you all so much for your invaluable help.

Ace

Psychopath.S. Does this site need /accept donations ? Once things settle down for is, I definitely would like to contribute something should it be relevant.

Hello Ace,

I am about to go out for the day but wish to reply to you at least quickly before I go.
Thank you for clarifying things in such detail. I had to smile when I read your post. You have such a talented and determind daughter.

The later separation as teens usually mirrors the same way they reacted as toddlers. So if you recall how it was you may see similarities. To me what you say about her time away already doesn't necessarily conflict with what I was thinking. Separation is a process and like children when they go through their first separation stage as toddlers, it may involve two-ing and fro-ing. They run away from mother, then run back checking for reassurance. She may feel greater apprehension about 'going exploring' if she is concerned about mother during her absence. And what you said about your wife also makes sense in this regard. It does seem that moving away is a fraught issue for her and given these factors your role as bridge to the outer world will be significant. While her abilities as an adult are obvious, her inner little girl may require lots of assurance that all will be well 'at home' when she is gone. Just thinking, on some level she may even equate her mother's illness with her desire to separate as a child. Also, given her mother's illness, she may need to prove her strength and invulnerability. As I said, she may find it hard to express the vulnerability and fear she may secretly harbour, especially given her otherwise confident and capable demeanour. Children are very sensitive and she may have interpreted what happened to you wife in this way...But these are just my thoughts for you to consider.

Jan was right,I was thinking in terms of this man as a 'father figure'. The fact she did so well in an authoritary environment like the military also fits this in my mind. To me this suggests competence issues, and self-into-the-world matters and the role of the father as the bridge between her self and the world is all of this. It's like a ship moving out of the port to sea. Maybe she needs to know the tug boat is there for a while. And Jan's sense of her hoping for her prtective father is also along these lines.


When I asked about what you would hope things to be like once this person goes,I was meaning between yourself and your daughter. To me, this man is just sitting in the middle. What is really going on involves your daugther and her parents. I wonder what you might envisage with this man gone and your relationship redefined in some way, with regard to your daughter successfully going her own way too. Perhaps into a flat or to the US. The purpose of the ship is to sail, not remain in the safe harbour for ever. And it is tempting when the sea out there seems all to scary or is unsafe, to return to the safe harbour of the familar. However it is good to re-embark on that process of setting sail again once the destination has been changed or the fear is placated. Is going to the US too big a step right now or does she just need a 'tug' to help her on her way. I would be trying to focus on making a constructive change in this way, with heaps of reassurance and support from yourself then perhaps the 'need' for this man will fall away.

Hope this is of some help.

Best wishes.

Sapphira

Hi Ace,
There is a smile on my face....Sapphira wrote what I came to write... hwhawhwa this is often like that you see.... And let me be honest.The way Sapphira can put things into words is so exeptional, there is no topping there. So I just follow her words!!!

There is an other issue I like to adress instead.

There s a lot happening in your live and that of your close family.
A lot of people offer advise and all advise I read about in your post is good advise...
But it has to be so very confusing to you and your wife to have so many of them at once.
I can see reason and logic in all of them and what do you choose then?
Sapphira is so to the point when she talks about the anorexia and the psychological background of that disease. ( is that how you call it in english also?)
Reading about all the things you told us the same ideas came to my mind, no need to explain them again, for again. the way Sapphira can do that is much clearer then what I could have said.
There are also the two people with a degree in psychology and psychiatry... there is us here on the forum who point out several things..Is your head spinning already????

Your wife is currently without a job and has a lot of time on her hands.... Time to worry???

I always try not to worry unless I can solve something..Otherwise there is no point in it is there! That sounds very easy but takes time to exercise that and after a while it will give a lot of peace.
The clue is to keep close to your own feeling. Take in all the advise and let it be for a short while..think about it, figure things out for yourself , feel it on a deeper level and then when all is done, you most probably will end up knowing what to do.
We , on the forum, but all outsiders in this matter, can't take any responsebillity for what you deside to do..Only you can..... So be sure that whatever you deside to do is something that is close to who you are, how you live your life and consider all things.

The time you have now, before she returns, can be used in a very good way. I will explain by an example ok..that will makee it more clear...( I think in another posting I explained already, so excuse me for repeting myself..)

There are two shopkeepers..... They have simmilar shops and both are doing fine...
Now the time has come that things slow down and custumers stay away this time of year....
One of the shopkeepers is always looking at the door for people to enter but they don't... he gets depressed because of it and after a while he is in despair even for the people seem never to come back. The shop gets a bit dirty and the accounts are far behind....
The other shopkeeper is also not very happy with things slowing down but he starts wondering what to do about it...wants to use the time he has in an efficient way. So looking around carefully in his shop he discoveres some things that are too old and out of fasion on a few shelves. So he takes them out, cleans the shop, buys new stock and put it in a nice way in his shop. In the meantime he does his accounts and he is satisfied for using his time right.

When costumers return, which shop will they go to do you think?? The shop that is ready or the one who is smelly, dirty and with old things ?????

So what I mean to say is...Though there is not much you can do right now...You can prepair for the things that are coming. Like Jan and Sapphira pointed out already there will be no easy time then......
That is where it starts for you and your wife!!
So take time to calm down, learn a lot about both psychopathy but certainly about anorexia..Learn about the lies that come with both and the lack of selfesteem, look claer and honest at your own family dynamics and at how and when things seem to have changed for your daughter.( this may be a longer ago then you may think on first hand)
Do things that will make you stronger in your own mind and be at peace in your own mind and body....
That is a lot isn't it...But then, when she returns you will be ready and prepaired in a way she will never expect and you will be able to help her more and deeper. Indeed there is nothing you can do now...But as time comes you will be ready for all that will be there.

In the general discussions are a few exercises that could be of help for you and your wife..they really help but you have to practice them... no easy answers or way out again!

( 'discovery and healing' and 'there is a way out!')

Maybe it is a good idea for your wife to come and write also on the forum..there is no rule that only one family member may write, is there... She can use a nickanme so nobody will know who she is and this way it is safe to do...
Hope to hear form you soon....
Segaya

Hello Ace

Thank you for giving us such a comprehensive background to your daughter’s life. It is certainly much more complicated than I could have imagined.
I’m sorry to hear about your wife’s illness this must weigh heavily on your daughter’s mind. I’m not surprised she is reluctant to leave home.

Could you explain the ‘weird’ talking you experienced? Did you instinctively feel you were being manipulated and lied to?

Am I right in thinking that military service for young people in Israel is compulsory before going on to study? If so this would take away her choice to leave home and maybe the fear of leaving is far worse than the reality and once she was away she had a choice to return when she was ready.
She had a very successful career and took such a huge amount of responsibility at such a young age, it’s not surprising she has emotional problems now. It’s almost like PTSD that has presented itself as anorexia.
To do the job she did must have taken a huge amount of self control, self discipline and courage. She had responsibilities far beyond her years and now she is only responsible for herself. It must be difficult to relinquish responsibility for others so maybe that is one of the many reasons for over-controlling herself. She also can’t control her mother’s illness and it’s probably the thing she wants to control most.

Your daughter is such a high achiever, she puts herself under a lot of pressure. I know you will probably say it’s not realistic to suggest it to her but would she consider cognitive behaviour therapy?

She worked away for a short while but returned home after 6 months-again she had the choice. If the day had come for her to leave for University she MAY have changed her mind so we will never know the answer to that. The man could be a convenient excuse. It sounds as though she was a very sensitive girl and has internalised so much in so few years and is going through an extremely troubled time when most people of her age are out enjoying themselves. She has had to become an adult too soon. I have complete faith that she will come through this when her age catches up with her experience. She has been in a parental role and now she is a ‘child’ again. How difficult is that?

I’m pleased you mentioned cocaine, I was reluctant to ask you if you had any suspicions that your daughter might be involved with drugs, even diet pills.
Anorexia is like an addiction and all addicts are in denial until they reach rock bottom so it’s not at all unusual to deny it. Admitting to it means you have to give up control to someone else to help the recovery.

I wonder if there has ever been a case of a psychopath picking on a poor victim, I have never heard anyone say this and if you read the posts here nearly everyone says they were financially secure and the psychopath drained them.
I think you have the upper hand in the financial aspect of this situation so I would be inclined to follow the advice of the psychiatrist about being a firm parent. This is the one area you are in control in all of this and the thing that could bring it to a swifter conclusion.

I hope we hear positive things from you as time goes on.

Regards
Jan

Hi Jan -

Thanks for your post. I'll try to respond to some of your questions, and hopefully include some responses to earlier posts from Sapphira and Segaya. I'll update you on some of the latest developments as well which I'd like to get your feedback on.

Regarding my wife's illness, of course its been a major thing. But, I should say that my wife is a woman of very strong internal strength and character. If you saw her, you wouldnt believe that she went through 5 bouts of lymphoma over almost 20 years. She looks healthy physically and emotionally is fine as well. Ive known, and you probably have too, people who had leukemia for 10 to 20 years. They always looked sick, sometimes more so, sometimes less so - but it was apparent they always had a problem. With my wife, when she was sick, she was treated typically with 4 to 6 months of chemo and then spent say another 6 to 8 months to physically get composed again, but then looked healthy after that. So, over 20 years, she looked sick maybe 25% of that time, but the rest of the time was fine. And, she's been fine for the last 6 years.

As to the psychopath's weirdness, note the following incidents:
(1) A couple days after meeting this guy, my daughter came home with a snake in an aquarium. It was a "gift" from him. It was a strange looking snake. I asked him about it, and he said it was a king snake from California. I'm originally from California, and I remembered king snakes - at least they arent poisonous. I checked images on Google, and sure enough its a king snake. I dont know how it got to Israel but it did. Right away, the snake caused tension at home. My wife, other daughter and I objected to having the snake at home. Like many if not most people, we feel uncomfortable around snakes, even more so having one at home. My daughter insisted she has the right to have whatever she wants in her room. We countered that we all live together in the same house and have to be respectful of what the family as a whole finds objectionable. Within a day or two, my wife asked the psychopath to take the snake away. He said he cannot, because he doesnt accept return gifts. I asked my daughter why she wants a snake in her room. She said that the psychopath said it will help her overcome her 'fears'. I asked her what kind of fears does she want to overcome, and she refused to elaborate. In any event, after the snake was around for about a week, my wife issued an ultimatum. If the snake isnt gone within 48 hours, we will sell it to the local pet store, and give whatever they pay for it to my daughter. Sure enough, the next day, the psychopath took the snake back. Prior to picking up the snake, he called us (with my daughter present with him) to tell us that he is picking up the snake but that we owe him an apology and a thank you. For what ? we asked. For damages and stress to him, my daughter and the snake. We should be thankful, in his words, that he is not filing suit against us for the equivalent of around US$30,000 !! We told him effectively that he cannot threaten us like that, and he should be ashamed at the nerve he has to think he has rights within our home. He then proceeded to tell us we are in fact not the owners of our home - that our home and everything else in the universe belongs to the Almighty.

(2) A number of times I asked my daughter what she claims is so great about this guy. Amongst other things, she said he is very "spiritual". I asked how so, but she didnt say. He mentioned on a couple occasions that he has "healed" people from serious disease including the secretary of his family doctor, as well as another person I cant recall. Upon meeting my other daughter for the first time, he told her in a condescending way that he is "a very spiritual person" and doesnt have time and patience for most of the nonsense that most kids in their early 20s deal with. My other daughter told me after that -"Daddy, you know me, I never say this after just meeting someone - but I just dont like this guy".

(3) The day we threw the psychopath out of our house, his last words to us were "You will regret you did this. You will beg me later to come back to this house."

Regarding military service over here, yes it is compulsory. All things being equal, the army here can for some be a challenging experience but I dont think it leads to PTSD, at least not for the women soldiers. Like soldiers anywhere, PTSD is more of an issue as a side-effect of actual fighting. My daughter wasnt exposed to any of that. She was responsible for tracking villages for terrorist activity via remote visual tracking cameras. She was stationed several kilometers away from the cameras. 99% of the time nothing is actually happening. The other 1% of the time her team would escalate the suspicious signals to higher-ups. And most of those times they were false alarms. As I said earlier, she took her army period seriously, and was given a lot of 'control' - ie, responsibility and management of 40 other girls. When she finished her service, I told her that she has great management skills, and if she wanted to, one day she could be a very good manager in the civilian sector. Having 'control' and then losing it is a buzz word for anorexia - there may be something to that. To manage 40 people in say high-tech which I work in requires years of experience plus an MBA degree.

On the cocaine issue, this was an immediate suspicion from the psychiatrist. He asked me a battery of questions, and concluded that she isnt addicted to it although she may have used it on occasion with him. My feeling is that she currently not using it.

The whole anorexia thing seems to be getting worse and not better. Over the last 2 weeks my daughter simply has almost stopped eating at home. Im not sure what she eats outside, but I cant believe its very much. I know she has tried to contact modelling agencies in the last week or two (when she was healthy she was an attractive girl, although I wouldnt say stunning, or a definite model).There is no way this could lead anywhere in her current physical state. The point however is she thinks she looks good and in total denial of her continuing anorexic state. Jan, maybe you are right - anorexics have to hit rock-bottom before they wake up. For me this is a major stressor. It is shocking and frightening and am not sure where it all ends up. 10% of anorexics die of their problem.

All this is compounded by her complete refusal to acknowledge any problem whatsoever. Today, I tried to take a different approach to improve communications with her. I sat down and wrote her a letter. It was a sentimental letter from Dad to daughter. Nothing judgemental or negative in it. Just thoughts of good old days in the past, some compliments about her character, and a loving hope that we can mend our relations and have a happier future. Last summer, she and I took a really nice vacation together. Just the 2 of us. We went to New York City, from there to the beautiful nature in the Canadian Rocky Mountains, and afterwards to visit family in San Diego and San Francisco, California. Great trip. I mentioned it in the letter reminding her of the special time we had together not so long ago. I put it on her bed in the morning. In the evening I asked her if she read it. Right away, she was mad at me and said there is no place for a letter like that right now. I asked why ? She said because "I dont trust her and have insulted her boyfriend". I replied that I trust her in general and always have, but I simply dont trust the whole phenomenon of this new boyfriend. I dont know where he lives, where he works, his story is very suspicious. Her response: "What do you care about all that ?" My response: "A normal Dad would want to know some minimal info about who his daughter is seeing. Just simply give me one piece of information thats concrete about him." Her response: "You dont trust me". Me: "I dont think I insulted your boyfriend. But in any event, what do you suggest we do to relieve the implied insult ?" She:"You and mommy need to apologize to him and me !! Now get out of my room and leave me alone !!". (Psychopath wants to somehow worm back into the game).

Jan, the above paragraph I think answers the question you asked: "Did you instinctively feel you were being manipulated and lied to ?" The above exchange is simply not my daughter. Shes not there. I feel his intrusion in the whole thing.

Anyway, all this is very hard on my wife and I , as well as our other daughter. But we will never give in to this wacko psychopath. Question is, what is left for us to do ? Our daughter hardly speaks to us, she's mad at us, her anorexia is progressing. Help !!! The psychiatrist says "dont budge, dont compromise, he's dangerous and evil. She needs this tough-love and one day she will be forever grateful to you for it." For now though, its very very painful...Please any more suggestions out there...

Regards

Ace

Hi ace,
The thing that cmae tomind for me whenI read about your aughter managing 40 others..
I recognize it so well. Me? I do so well with othr people and a lot of times in my live i couldn't solve my own problems. This was whenI was around the same age your daughter is now. In the years I have learned to take care of myself. It is like everyone else was importend but not me. I use to get in the middle of physical fights from othrs. 'Hurt me, I don't care, but don't hurt somebody else for they can't take it...'
Why? I don't know...The feeling of not being worth anything I guess.... This thought was instald early on in childhood already and is very hard to loose.
Maybe that is what is happening. I don't know, it just seems that I know what she is doing.
It is so hard to be in this space of time where you are now. But really.. hold on for at this time thre is nothingmore you can do...
Just try to go through the days as well as possible and be patient.
It is so very frustrating to do nothing and yet it is the only thing you can do.... This is the fast way to solve it...Any interverence from you and your family will drive her further away.
How well you intended, the letter didn't come across as you mean it... That is the proof that whatever love and protection you can offer to her, she will not accept is as long as he has this influence on her.
Let go..... it sounds so very easy and it is so hard to do.
People who were vey close to me told me to 'let go' from my sons 7th year on...That is almost 20 years ago..When he ws 17 , just 17, I through him out of my house..and still I didn't let go...didn't even know what letting go means... Not looking after him anymore, not taking control over him with food washing his clothes and so on, didn't mean I let him go.
Letting go has to do with emotionally letting go. In the end it has to do with respect...
And it is hard,very hard to do... My son was and is in and out of jail, so he can'ttake care of himself in my opinion..... He is irrisponsable and not eating well, not clean on his body or clothes, not paying his bills and therefore in a lot of depts......I think now it is up to 60.000 euro's....and addicted to drugs....( I know about cocaine as well but maybe even heroine...i am not sure)How can you let go of a child that is like that????
maybe it is my way of believing that everything has a purpose....
Maybe this is prepairing your daughter for something bigger... Wo can tell...

The thing that is importend now is that you hold on to eachother. Your wife, your other daughter and you....
When one is weak the others have to jump in and help...
it's taking one day at a time...not looking too far in the future... Planning things to do without her as a family.. the time will come she will e back.
When you al are tired then for all the worrying what will you do? So htat is why I told you in the other posting to be well prepaired.... Knowledge is one thing, looking after yourself another...
When you do like this you will be ready the day she comes back to home again. Tehn you will take your part in solving , but now..... No, I don't see anything that you can do..
Maybe others have different ideas???

You can write about everything here, also when being angry and frustrated sad or in dispair..... we are here!!!
Segaya

Hello Ace

Your wife must be an incredibly strong woman to deal with her illness like she does. She has brought up two children despite such a serious condition. So your daughter has seen her mother being ill throughout most of her life, maybe she has lived with the thought she could lose her mother at any time and hasn’t recognised the terror that must hold for a child. Does your daughter consider how her behaviour must be affecting your wife’s health?

That brings me back to PTSD. I just felt there are some similarities with your daughter’s behaviour so I have been doing some research and any traumatic event can trigger it if a person is pre-disposed. Everyone suffers to a greater or lesser extent with any condition and may display different symptoms.

This is some of the information I came across. I tried to change font for the articles to make it more readable but I wasn't able to. (Maybe get yourself a cup of coffee but before you tackel this.)

PTSD-This is an "acute stress reaction".
Even hearing about the unexpected injury or violent death of a family member or close friend can start PTSD.
People who have not been directly involved in a trauma of this kind may still experience levels of distress as high as those who were.
It can be just too upsetting to re-live your experience over and over again. So you distract yourself. You keep your mind busy by losing yourself in a hobby, (Anorexia?) working very hard, or spending your time absorbed in crossword or jigsaw puzzles. You avoid places and people that remind you of the trauma, and try not to talk about it.

You may deal with the pain of your feelings by trying to feel nothing at all - by becoming emotionally numb. You communicate less with other people, who then find it hard to live or work with you.
Lack of trust in other people - and the world in general - is central to complex PTS-You say that your daughter uses the phrase ‘you don’t trust her.’

How does it come about?
The earlier the trauma happens, the more it affects psychological development. Some children cope by being defensive or aggressive, while others cut themselves off from what is going on around them.
Personal circumstances
Your personal history can make you more prone to PTSD. If a traumatic event triggers memories of an earlier distressing experience, the impact is effectively doubled in intensity. Similarly, if you are already going through emotional problems, you are also much more vulnerable. Your temperament may also have a lot to do with it.
‘found to be suffering from PTSD, either alone or in combination with other problems, such as alcohol misuse’ Anorexia?
Stress responses that are bottled up over months or years become deeply ingrained and may cause serious problems. Sometimes, people turn to alcohol or drugs in an attempt to blot out painful feelings and memories. Individuals may remain in a state of extreme tension long after the trauma has passed. They may find themselves avoiding situations, in case they remind them of their trauma, so that life becomes increasingly restricted. Anorexia/control?

Behavioural therapy
This involves going though the trauma, repeatedly, with a psychologist or therapist, so that people re-experience the emotions they felt at the time. It’s important to go through the details of the trauma many times until they’ve dealt with the feelings and feel comfortable and no longer anxious.

This is a very good link to a lot more information.
http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=293#

Is your wife’s illness openly discussed within the family? If so how does your daughter deal with conversations about it?

The following information about eating disorders which you probably already know about but this was more for my benefit to find out about how these conditions may be connected.
Anorexia
Certain personality features are common in people with eating disorders. These include:
• low self-esteem, where how you think about your body shape affects your self-worth
• a loss of interest in other people
• trying to be perfect
• mood problems, especially depression
• mental health problems such as obsessive compulsive disorder (where you can't stop thinking about or doing certain actions)
If you have these personality features, an eating disorder may give you a sense of control and achievement. It can be triggered by a major stressful event, such as leaving for college.
Psychotherapy is frequently used in the treatment of anorexia. Psychotherapy helps you to identify the feelings and fears that caused you to stop eating, and helps you develop a healthier attitude towards food and your body.
A course of psychotherapy usually lasts six months, but if you need a more long-term therapy, motivational enhancement therapy is an option. This also aims to change your attitude towards food into a more healthy and positive one.
You may also find it helpful to have therapy that involves your family. This helps everyone in the family to understand the disorder properly and support each other.
Sources
• Eating disorders. NHS Library for Health. Clinical Knowledge Summaries. http://www.cks.library.nhs.uk, accessed 2 January 2008
• Eating disorders. The Royal College of Psychiatrists. http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk, accessed 2 January 2008
• Eating disorders - core interventions in the treatment and management of anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa and related eating disorders. National Collaborating Centre for Mental Health. 2004. National Clinical Practice Guideline CG9. http://www.nice.org.uk
• What is anorexia nervosa? Beating Eating Disorders (beat). http://www.b-eat.co.uk, accessed 2 January 2008
• World Health Organisation (WHO). The ICD-10 Classification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders - Diagnostic criteria for research. Switzerland: WHO, 1993
• Morris J, Twaddle S. Anorexia nervosa. BMJ 2007; 334:894-898. http://www.bmj.com
• Collier J, Longmore M, Scally Psychopath. Oxford Handbook of Clinical Specialities. 6th ed. Oxford, 2003
I can understand why your daughter is applying for a modelling job, probably pressure from the man but also to find out if she is ‘valuable’ and searching for self esteem. As you say in her present condition the chances are she will be rejected which will cause more damage.

Denial is a huge part of any addiction and I really don’t know how anyone can break through that barrier and make the person see they are in denial. It has to come from them but the pain of watching and waiting for the realisation to happen is a nightmare. That is something I do know! There must be some support groups for parents of anorexic children like there are for the families of alcoholics.

1 The snake incident-how bizarre! How arrogant of this man to say he doesn’t take back ‘gifts’ and threaten legal action. I would think he gave a ‘gift’ like that to cause tension in the family. What a strange thing to say about your home belonging to the almighty. It sounds as though you are not the least intimidated by him which is great.
2 Claiming to heal….being very spiritual….No wonder she doesn’t reply to your questions, what could she say to ‘prove’ any of this? It must put her under a lot of pressure as she is intelligent enough to consider fact as opposed to fiction and has nothing to offer as an explanation.

I’m not surprised your other daughter took a dislike to him, we have very strong instincts and can sense when someone is not right.
3 Saying you will beg him to come back!!! Unbelievable!!!
The strength of his manipulation must be daunting.

Your daughter must be in the depths of depression and not seeing reality but knowing deep down things are terribly wrong with her life. Reading your letter must have touched a nerve hence her reaction. Trust is a two way street, she has to meet you half way with that so you are justified asking for information about this man. Could the ‘apology’ situation be implemented to get an opportunity to let him drop himself in it in front of her?

This may be something that you feel is not appropriate for me to say and I apologise in advance if you do…you and your wife are wonderful parents but perhaps you have over-protected your daughter from the seriousness of her illness and it may be time to let your daughter know that the consequences of her behaviour could put too much stress on her mother. As we know stress can weaken the immune system. If this man is so spiritual and caring then he would put your wife’s health before himself…perhaps ‘give him the opportunity to prove himself? ’ As we know this is not possible but could be a chance to let your daughter open her eyes and start to see again.

I wish we could offer you more practical help. Has she got any friends you know she trusts who could you speak to?

Regards
Jan

Hi Forum -
Thanks again for your continuing posts. My wife and I read each and every one of them carefully and consider each in detail. I told them about your suggestions that she start writing too, but for now she's content having me do the writing. Occasionally, she asks me to write something on her behalf. This site has turned into a form of postive therapy for both her and myslef and already a lot of good has come out of it.

Segaya, your suggestion, which I know you also told me about earlier, of somehow disengaging until my daughter somehow starts to change makes sense. Of course its very hard to do, but it makes sense - it can be a daily goal. Its the only way to stay sane through this, and it also deters the psychopath from getting into us too much. I remind myself that he is an evil and abnormal human being, and my daughter is a disturbed and unbalanced human being. A relationship betwen 2 people like that cant stay too cohesive for long, at least thats what I want to believe. And that at least reassures me a little bit. Segaya, your advice of living one day at a time - each day to itself, not worrying too much about the future, and my wife, daughter and I being there to help each other is practical and smart advice. Your description about your son was also very valuable because it gave me a chance to see what other people who are writing me have faced and are facing. I'd be happy to hear more from others if anyone wants to share. Also, in an earlier post, you suggested techniques to ease up. My wife practices meditation (visualization, relaxation, etc) - shes been doing it for a few years and I know this has been very good for her and she told me she continues with it through this crisis. I'm trying to encourage her to get out of the house more, which will help her as well. For me, I have for many years been a jogger, running 30 to 40 minutes 4 or 5 times a week. It keeps me healthy and gives me the 'endorphin' effect causing me to feel good, sometimes to greater degree, sometimes to a lesser degree. I try to eat alot of fresh fruit and vegetables - I see the cause-and-effect of eating well and feeling well. Last but not least, I am a person who finds much benefit in my religion. It helps me accept irrational situations better, and a reassurance that there is meaning to everything even though I in my limitation may not always know the meaning. Finally, as I said earlier, this forum also helps me out a lot on a daily basis.

Jan your discussion about PTSD could be relevant. Since my daughter has shut down her communications with us as well as shutting down her eating habits and is latched on to this guy makes me think that she is in a sort of traumatic spell. Coincidentally, I myself lost my mother to cancer when I was a tender 5 year old !! In the middle of one of my wife's bouts with cancer, I went into clinical depression. I remember feeling in a state of semi-shock for a few months. Luckily, I was guided to a psychiatrist who helped me with medication and therapy. It did the trick and I have been fine and stable ever since. Unfortunately for my daughter, we are at the mercy of just looking at her right now, cant say much to her, she's kind of like a puppy who keeps barking at us and wont let us get near her. She somehow has to transition but its so hard right now. Things like behavior therapy, talking with an anorexic specialist, talking with a friend, telling my daughter that stress is not good for Mom, etc arent happening for the time being because she just refuses to hear it. Like Segaya says, we have to detach a little before we can reattach, otherwise we will be more and more miserable. Jan, I dont think its a good idea that we bring this guy back in for a staged apology. Remember who he is. He'll love the opportunity for new legitimacy and more manipulation. He's not spiritual and hes not caring. No way. He'll never get that chance from us. He's a psychopath. Period.

Now to another subject. The last day I have started reconsidering hiring out a detective. All the reasons the forum suggested earlier for not hiring one are still valid. However,here are new points I started thinking about: (1) If something really bad happened to my daughter, if I didnt have the slightest clue who and where this guy is afterwards, I would never forgive myself, (2) I spoke with a detective today, and mentioned some of your points about the futility of tracking this guy. However, he mentioned a very intriguing point. Once more is known about him, and how he interacts with my daughter, he said there are ways where scenarios can be created where the two of them can be broken apart without either of them knowing who "set up" the scenario. All this can cost us serious money, but some of my family members have already offered, in their goodness, to help defray the costs. Parting with several thousand dollars wont be fun, but it wont put me in debt and wont in the big picture cause serious damage to our financial state. My wife is less inclined to go for this, but her family is pressuring me to change her mind. I will raise these new points with her tonight and hear what she has to say. Meantime, what do any of you say about these new points ?

Regards to you all

Ace

Hi Ace, giving someone a snake is the weirdest thing I have heard of unless someone (can't imagine who) was in a snake club. It sounds to me that giving the snake he knew that was one thing for sure that would affect the entire family.

From what I want to add about anorexia is that it is one thing a person can do to be in control of something and that something is food. My best guess he is telling her she is fat and not good enough until she loses weight even if she is already thin.

She could have anorexia or bulemia, a dentist can tell if she has bulemia.

I am glad you found us and have been receiving support.

Di

Hi Ace, and wife,
I am so glad that you both found a way to get some relaxation. Doens't matter if it comes from exercising fysically or from meditation, as long as you do something to relax your mind and do something to get some strenght from. it is so very importend to look after yourself, especially in these kind of situations. And unfurtunatally it is one of the first things we seem to forget to do!!!

I see what you mean with what you are saying about the detective..Don't forget although the man seems to make sence...he is coming also from a point that he wants the employment?

it is nice of your family that they offer to help with finances if necessary but the part that they asked you to convince your wife doesn't feel good to me!!!
Call me crazy..; If your wife is meditating for years, she will be very intuitive. Being that means she can feel more then probably can be put into words, That depends on how good she is in putting feelings into words. If she strongly objects against this plan, then please listen carefully to her!!!
Mothers 'know more' then can be exprest often and most of the times she, the mother, is right. When it comes to her children she is by far the specialist in how they feel,why they act like they do ..sometimes mothers don't know what exactly is wrong but by heart they know what to do, without being able to be concrete about it.

Ofcourse there is the fear of not knowing what will hapen to your daughter. Not knowing where this man lives and what he does for a living is making you like being blind and deaf.
I have the following questions;
What makes that you think this man,the detective can do more then anyone else if it comes to breaking these two up? How much experience does the detective has with psychopaths? This is very importend!! Like we explained before...; don't think this will be easy. One of the things why they, the psychopaths, are so hard to get to is there abillity for not feeling, no concious. That means someone who is going to go up against a psychpath has to be a psychopath himself AND more intelligent than the one he is up against. Not all psychopaths are as intelligent, that is not what I mean..They just think in such a different way then we, the normal people do...That is what makes it so very hard to live with them..That is exacly the problem!
( sometimes I hate it that english is not my own language, I can't express myself like I want....)
I can't tell you how hard it is to predict what will happen next when a psychopath is involved in a situation. You can think of so many things but never the thing the psychopath is thinking of. The only thing you can do is prepair for something bad to happen...
Don't be scared because I think the bad thing happend for you already. I trust your intelligent daughter that when things get worse she will get out all by herself. As we concluded before; She knows!!! The only thing that is stopping her for leaving him is her own mind. So that would mean you are not up against fighting the psychopath, but up against her, or rather, her way of thinking at the moment. Her state of mind is the most importend thing that keeps her hanging in there.
It still is true that nobody can do anything to another person without that person cooperating.
That is; somebody can hurt you, as long as you let that perosn hurt you.... That way somebody has power over somebody else as long as that other person allows it!!!
This is a universal thruth that also concerns your daughter.
Maybe she can't put it into words but it is a knowledge we all do have... She knows that she is welcome back if she wants...The letter made it even more clear. You came too close to her emotions and probably that is why she fight you after reading it!!
If she woudn't have cared about the letter, she would have desposit it and never mentioned it afterwards.....

The more I think about it, the more I am sure that the difference in live for her is going to do the trick. What I mean is...;
The difference in what she knows live to be... at home with loving parents, a nice sister, a in peace and a strong bound between all the persons involved and now the situaiton as it is with this psychopath... She is fighting it, but still feels the gape that is there.. This will make it more difficult for her to stay in that situation. She knows , like we all do, that if this would be right she wouldn't fight so much and wouldn't be so much in problems like she is now... something is off, and she is struggling to get it right.. She soon enough will know she can't change him and then will make up her own conclusion.

I smilled at what the man said to you...Your house isn't yours??...Oke fair enough..But then why brag about his rich family and the good job he has...it's not his own is it????
Hang in there and take courage!!!
Segaya

Hi Segaya -

Thanks for your letter and thanks for the nice compliments on my wife. Youre right about her, she has excellent intuition which many people in her life have noticed. You have excellent intuitive skills as well as we see in your many posts.

Segaya, my wife asked me to ask your opinion on the following subject about our daughter. For the last 3 weeks, she has been looking for an apartment to rent in the city where she works. Its about an hour away from the suburb we live in. We know she looks through the Internet listings daily. Although the rental market is a little bit tight, there are apartments out there. However, my wife with her intuition is starting to get suspicious. Our daughter usually makes pretty quick decisions. Going back and forth by bus to our house for the time being is not easy. Besides, the city is popular with young people for renting. My wife is starting to feel that as our daughter gets close to closing on renting an apartment for herself, the psychopath is coming with reasons each time to cancel. My wife is starting to believe the psychopath does not want our daughter to move out of the house. What do you think ??

By the way, your English is fine - I understand everything you have to say !!

Thanks

Ace

Hi ace and wife...
ohh this man is tricky.... don't you see... The moment she moves out of your house he doesn't has acces to your money any more....
If he needs money now, he tells her to go and ask you for it. When she lives on her own she has to spend her own money also on the rent and her food and everything else she will need. There will be less for him to spend .
Probably he will not even ask her to pay for things but will manipulate her into it by saying forinstance that it is normal to pay for each other. ('only at the moment I don't have enough due to work related things that in the end will bring a lot of money so for the mean time,. can you pay...?)Or when they go out, she is paying for her own part. Going dutch is how it is called isn't it??..( while dutch don't do that as a general habit!!!)
There is also a chance he doesn't want her too close and too depending on him... Like it is now is just good for him, every change will set him back.
On top of it all, psychopaths love to disturbe..the moment she is on her own he can upset her, but not you... You did the unthinkable..You told him to go... he is not allowed to enter your house, so he will do everything possible to make you miserable....
Be sure that whatever reason he has to object agains her moving to her own appartment, it will have nothing to do with him taking care of her, or worry about her, it for sure wil have to do with him..... But where he is coming from, whatever reason he has is in the dark, but it is never out of love, care or concern for his girlfriend! Another possibillity; If she is near more people of her own age...as you discribe the place she wants to move to ,she will see different things, different people with other opinions.... If they, the new friends she will make, or the old ones who will see more of her relationship, see what is happening to your daughter, there is a big change they will warn her about him. He can't have that!!!
As long as it is only you, her parents and sister who are objecting, he can tell her you are stupid, it is just parents who want control over their child and she isn't a child anymore blablabla..you get the picture... but if it become more people telling her this then he will loose grip on her very soon.
it will be very hard to isolate her when she is living so near many of her age group. So there is danger for him when she really moves to live on her own.
Another possibillity ( you can never think of enough with a psychopath in the picture...)
If she has her own appartment, she probably will ask him to come and stay for at least a while.....if this will happen, he looses control also. Now she is living with you, when she is at home he is free to do whatever he wants... Living on her own means she is more in control then she is now..he has to make up more excuses to avoid her.
he knows also how depending she is by now... And that, my dear friends is something he can't use.. So all the reasons for him to discourage her for moving on in live.
Yes, psychopaths do want peole to depend on them, but not all the way, not to the point it will control their own moving around.. So from whatever angel I look at this picture...it is bad news for him....
Does this mean it is good for her to move on?????
I don't know... considering the anorexia; This will give her a ticket to freedom ... There will be nobody to control what she is eating.... As discussed before; when the eating disorder indeed has to do with becoming an adult and the difficult time that gives her then maybe it is a good thing.. There are so many things to consider in this situation that it is hard to say things about it when not knowing the whole picture... ( for us here on the forum that is)
As far as the motivation of the psychopath; it is only seen from his point of view that he doesn't like her to move to her own appartment!!!!And be sure this point of view is bad news always!!!

I am so very happy this forum is helping you both so much..I think that is exactly why Dianna has started this. We all are concerned about peole who are truly in trouble because of a psychopath in their lives. We all know what that is and what you bump in to. Oke htere are always differences in the situations but there is always recognision and if we can be of help we will try.
love Segaya

Hello Ace and wife

I’m so pleased we are talking to you both and it would be nice if we had a ‘name’ for you, Ace’s wife.

I so understand your frustration and need to find an answer, that was me not so long ago. My partner’s son is a fledgling psychopath (he no longer lives with us) and I was going round in circles trying to find a solution to an unsolvable problem. In the end the solution was for the person with the psychopathic behaviour to get out of my life. I wish this could happen to you and soon. No doubt it will eventually happen but living through the nightmare in the meantime is incredibly difficult.

I think you are right to believe this dysfunctional relationship cannot be sustained with two dysfunctional people. Your daughter’s problem is temporary but I don’t think the man will change.

Segaya always has a great insight into the deeper issues and I’m pleased you take her advice, she is a very wise woman. It’s good that you have a faith that sustains you, we all need something to believe in something to justify our actions. Keeping the body healthy is essential to having a healthy mind. I know Segaya mentioned the self help techniques she uses and posted on the forum and I highly recommend them. It helped me enormously to deal with the legal problems I have by giving me an inner strength I didn’t know was possible.

She is so right about detaching but ready to catch her when she lets herself fall.

Losing your mother at 5 years old must have left a huge emotional gap in your life, did you have a sibling to share this with or did you have to deal with this with just a grieving father?

I do understand why you would not let this person get on the stage to perform, I was thinking that if he had that chance he may make a fool of himself and expose himself as the person he really is. I’m so impressed that your opinion can’t be changed, you obviously know what you are dealing with so clearly. I know it’s not possible for a psychopath to be spiritual and caring, maybe you thought I had misread that information.

Wouldn’t it be good if you could suggest therapy to your daughter and she agreed?? I’m so disillusioned with professionals who advocate these things but have they ever lived with a person like this or is their learning just from text books? I think we all know the answer to this!

About your decision to hire a detective….you will do what you feel is right and if it’s right for you then you need to follow your instincts. The reasons you give are valid and what is money for anyway? If you feel you will have regrets if you don’t do this then it’s something that will prey on your mind for a long time to come. Doing ‘what if’ is not a positive thing to do, it never answers the question.
Only you know what is right for you and your family but whatever you choose your family will always get our support.

I wish you all some peace from all your problems. Woman to woman - Mrs Ace- you don't need any more problems so I hope we can offer you some support.

Regards
Jan

Hi Jan, Segaya, and our other forum friends -

Thanks once again for your kind words - its helps us get through the day.

Jan, I am sorry about the story with your partner's son. Being around a pyschopath for 10 days was more than enough for me. I cannot imagine the hardship of being coerced to be around a psychopath on a long-term basis. I'm sure life for your partner has not been a piece of cake with a son like that. Segaya's story of her son also sounded very hard. Having a child like that in your proximity for many long years must being emotionally very tough. In Segaya's case, it is clear from her writings, that she became a very wise woman from her experience. One story I can somewhat compare it to a little bit is that of my late step-brother. He became suddenly ill with schizophrenia at around age 14. Its not related to psychopathy, but my guess is that the overwhelming parental burden of being responsible for a child with conditions lie these reach the same levels of misery. He died an early death at around 33. The years in between were sheer hell for my parents. He was often irrational and occasionally violent. He couldn't be placed in a mental health facility simply because he didn't want to be in such a place. He could not be forced to take medication which could have helped him in a major way, also, because he simply didn't want to take it. The law in the US was on his side on that and as a result he was at home most of the time, except for a few times when he ended up in jail or hospitalized because of being in a psychotic state. He died violently as a result of an incident involving police brutality. Afterwards, my step-mother actually sued the police and won her case. This took amazing courage and persistence, because the odds of winning a suit against the police in the US are quite low. Not to mention the emotional pain of going through a trial like that. One of the first questions I asked our psychiatrist is if there could be a genetic link between schizophrenia and our daughter's current unusual behavior and he completely ruled out any link.

Somehow I feel a little better today than I have for a long time. Not that anything special happened. Maybe forum members suggesting that I have to detach a bit is starting to sink in. Segaya's last analysis of the dynamics of my daughter's search for an apartment - and how this is an apparent threat to the psychopath makes complete sense to my wife and I and made us feel a little better also. More independence for her, more exposure to people in general, less involvement indirectly for us with him, less potential money to squeeze by him, etc all sounds true. I am pretty sure eventually she will find an apartment. Its too much of a commuting hassle for her, she's not eating anything here, and whatever apartment manipulation he does I think can only go so far in this case - at least thats my hope. How it will affect her anorexia is an open question. A friend of my wife told her recently that she knows an anorexic young woman who went to the US for a few years for studies. There she recovered and returned to normal weight and behavior. However, upon returning here she started to regress again and now is borderline anorexic but remains stable. So, maybe if our daughter changes her environment it will help, but again I really don't know.

By the way, I asked my wife to come up with a 'forum name' so I don't have to keep calling her 'my wife'. Hopefully she'll give me one in the next day or so. Meantime, she's keeping up with your posts and mine.

Regards to all

Ace

Hi Ace and wife,
Take it from me;We are so happy to be of little help for people who really need it on the forum! It never can be too much can it..especially if this psychopathy is coming from nowhere in your live suddenly. There are so many questions that rais, so many situations to consider, so many feelings to deal with!!!
I must say that from my point of view...this forum, I think you and your wife are doing a great job in coping with this whole situation!!!!
Sometimes it is hard to say what possible actions one can take for not everybody will really consider things but will throw it all away just like that or they will blindly follow what is told. Non of these are the correct thing to do. There is nobody here in the same situation as you are, so everybody must take from the advise what is needed or modle it into something else that is usable....

I feel so happy that you have such a good day for that is exactly what we need, to go on.
I think it also means you are doing the right thing, for otherwise you wouldn't feel at ease at all...You would have doubts and a feeling of being nervous if it was wrong what you are doing.....( I see your wife nodding her head!!!)
So take courage from that.

I read what you are telling about your brother..... You had quit a hard live too I think!!! Loosing your mother at such a young age and then having to deal with a schizofrenic brother.... I think, but that is me, maybe others will not agree, that it doesn't matter all that much where live experience or feelings of pain,frustration, being alone in the world and so on, are coming from.....what matters is how we deal with them. Do we learn our lives lessons or aren't we...?o we get to know how we, ourselves, really are in depth??? How does it form us as human beings and what are we doing with all we have learned..? Are we throwng it away or do we make others benefit from it too....??

This brings me back to the situation with your daughter....She has to learn her lessons in live. They differ from the lessons you have had..but still they have to be learned anyway....
I learned forinstance that all that happens in my live has a purpose. No matter how hard the lessons were, all were needed to make me the person I am now..And take it from me..I am a much better person than I was years and years ago... I was never a bad person, I was rather shy and always scared..very afraid of everything you can think about and always ready to attack.....No not in a physical way but I had to protect myself, this made me so scared, those feelings, that I turned the other way and didn't do a thing to protect myself......I learned and learned and learned and still am learning....And the thing I am learning now, ( and for a coplle of years already) is that live isn't about fighting and always be in a battle to survive..live can be easy and gentle too....
Another thing I learned is that the purpose of live is indeed to learn... If there weren't any livelessons,how would we learn???
And are there ever lessons that are really nice????
I don't think so..How hard we try to give our children a nice live... ?We will never succeed for no nice thing will ever teach them the things they need to learn. That means automatically that every human being..small, big, mail, femail has difficult times in live they have to deal with...
The only thing is that as parents we can teach them as good as possible what live is about. Prepair them for difficult times and give them the tools they need to overcome them.
That means teach them to manage their anger, sadness,frustration.teach them about lives difficulties and show them how to deal with them. teach them 'problemsolving' as a normal skill. teach them how to manage money so they don't end up in depths they can't pay for in years to come... teach them selfesteem so they will stand up for themselves and have a little trust in who they really are, even when the crowd is thinking in a different way.

This is all we can do.... and nothing more..And then it is for us to let go and trust the things we teach them will help them through live....
Like a baby they have to learn to walk on there own two feet and as they grow up that is even harder to do then when they were todlers.....
But it is necessary and it is, like Sapphira explained so wonderfully already, a two way street.. She had to learn to let go of her parents and her parents have to learn to let her go...
Thinking back about the letting go of my oldest child..the psychopath son, ....mannnnnn this was hard.... But; I don't know anything about your religion, but I believe nothing happends just like that..everything has it's purpose..so also his live..and the way he is living it..( pppfff)
I think, for me, it has a lot to do with respect.... No not respect for him as my son, for there is nothing to respect in that part... But respect for the life that is given to him to do whatever he wants with it..it is all up to him, it is his choice to make and I can't do anything about it...... I think the path someone goes is holy, and I have to believe so is his!!!
That doesn't mean at all I trust in him...or in the way he is handling things...it is a bigger thing than live itself..And again I can't express myself in English like I want and need to. I think you know what I mean and if not I trust you will let me know when you want to know what I do mean..I will try to explain it then in another way....
So I think see from that point of view the things you are going through with your daughteer are (ppfff)'normal'... it is a lives lesson in lettinggo and trust in her abillities as a human being....

Another thing I want to share is that my observation in my live and that of others is that there is nothing in live that is too big. I mean that a weaker person will never get big lessons and a strong person never gets easy lessons. So the lessons a person gets are exactly enough to handle in the way they are able to....
...
mmm, I explained this better in another posting ..I will see if I can find it and tell you were it is oke...
For now..I hope tomorrow will brign a very good day also and sleep well.
Love Segaya

Hi Forum -

I skimmed through parts of the on-line book "The Mask of Sanity" by Hervey Cleckley. [See http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.pdf ]. It has many stories describing the lives of what I guess are different kinds of psychopaths. Very educational. Though I was only exposed to the psychopath involved with my daughter for around ten days, I can see many instances of his behavior amongst these stories. There is one issue that I have trouble understanding, however. From what I have read elsewhere, (and our psychiatrist told us) psychopaths have trouble maintaining long-term relationships. In the book, many of the stories involved psychopaths who were married, at least for a while. People on this site have spoken of a parent who was a psychopath. How do individuals end up marrying psychopaths ? Are many of them so subtle that the 'normal' spouse doesn't see what he/she is getting into ?

Thanks

ace

Hi Ace,
I think that has to do with a lot of things... Not only with the behavior of the psychopath but also with the view people have from themselves.
You can see this in the relationship your daughter has with this man..I think in generally speaking this is exactly what will happen. Somehow psychopaths know exactly who to turn to. They will never hook up with someone who is strong and full of a good selfesteem. They prey always the once who have uncertain issues in their lives.
The majority of people are like that, so many are vulnarable to those psychopaths. Even having one or two vulnarabillities , they will catch on to it and abuse it.
We learn from our parents and envoirment that everybody makes mistakes and we have to forgive and forget. Few people will see through that behavior and deside somethings are not to forgive and certainly not to forget!!!
Another thing is selfreflexion or whatever it is called in English... People want to forgive others because they know they do wrong themselves also and want to be forgiven also...
Thebehavior of psychopaths will show things normal people will never thing about.. Think forinstance about the snake this man gave as a present to your daughter....The explanation people will give for themselves to those kind of events will be with in the reach of a normal functioning brain.They will never suspect somebody to be a psychopath!.
Although there are women psychopaths the larger group is men. So they will prey on women. Women learn from very early on that they have to adjust to men and have to be caring, loving, and the whole long list we all know about. So that makes them easy targets probably.
Ofcourse the abillity of psychopaths to ly , cheat, manipulate and charme their way out of everthing is not of small help in this.
Further on; There is not much knowledge about psychopathy. If people know about it, then only from a distance... that is...what they know.. There are a lot of psyhopaths out there and once you know how to recognize them it is easy enough....but what if you don't know...?
This man you are talking about is around 30 I think? It wouldn't surprise me at all if you are the first one to take his mask of..Maybe, but just maybe, there will be one more..But people just don't see. have other explanations for their behavior.
My son forinstance still makes people believe that the reason he is in prison now is still because of his bad youth... I didn't go and steal but still it is because of me..( he lives on his own now for almost 10 years!!!
All psychopaths will use excuses like that and will never take any responsibillity for their actions. Sometimes after doing something bad they will fall on their knees bagging for forgiveness and when turning around they just start al over again!
he checklist is not known by a lot of people. Parents of psychopath children go out of their way to findout what is wrong with hte child and only afte so many years of rechearch will find the way toknowledge about this disorder. Still readin the checklist it is hard exept this is what si wrong with their child....
When having a relationship people will never go to that ength to dicscover what is wrong.
As long as there is no knowledge about psychopathy, the psychopaths among us can do whatever they want and will find nobody in their way to stop them....

No doubt there can be said so much more about this item but I leaf that to others and have to goand work a bit now...
Hope this will help a bit.
Love Segaya

Hello Ace

Psychopaths have many short term relationships for a variety of reasons. They are parasitic by nature and if the 'host' stops providing then they move on to the next victim they can bleed. I'm sure that is why Segaya was saying the best thing would be for your daughter to move into her own apartment because the man would see she doesn't have free access to your goods, money and lifestyle. They often use the status of others as part of their act, like he did telling you where his parents lived and the family business.

I spoke to someone who was married to a psychopath for many years and she said her ex 'bought' her co-operation in his dominance and she learned to keep her head down and keep the peace for the sake of the children.

To begin with these people can be incredibly charming and it takes a long time to discover the real person behind the facade, while they are getting what they want they keep up the pretence. Somtimes partners stay because the psychopath has threatened them with harm or keeping the children if they leave, is the partner has nowhere to go because the psychopath has isolated them from family of friends then they are scared to go. Many are brainwashed and believe they are to blame for all the problems and spend years trying to put things right.

If you get some time you will read the many stories on the forum that will tell you why people stay with an abusive partner for so long. The problems are usually the same but it how the victim is able to deal with it that makes the difference. You took days to realise what this man is and have no reason to keep him in your life but imagine a person that falls in love with the character the psycopath is playing, maybe has children then the truth appears. I would think denial and self searching are the first things the victim does...as for the practicalities of moving away from the person with children and no money.

I hope your daughter is discarded soon because she lacks funds or access to what the man wants from her.

Going back to earlier posts I would guess that he is telling her she is not thin enough, playing on her fragile ego and that he is the onlyone who cares about her until she only sees things from his perspective...trying to brainwash her.
What do parents do when their children are taken in by a cult? I have no knowledge of how parents would go about undoing the brainwashing...that is they can get anywhere near them.

I'm waiting to hear some positive news from you soon.

Regards and my best wishes to Mrs Ace
Jan

As I am writing this, my daughter has gone out to sign a contract with the landlord for an apartment in the city. I guess based on what has been written in past posts we should be cautiously optimistic about it. I am trying to be careful about what I say on this to her. On the one hand it make sense for her to strike out independently and perhaps get rid of the psychopath and maybe feel better in order to improve her eating habits - so I wished her good luck with it all. On the other hand we dont want her to feel she's being pushed out of the house - its a home in which she should always feel part of, and if circumstances cause it again she needs to know she can come back, so we're not making too much noise about it.

Today had another unusual scenario that I invite you to comment on. I got to work and my daughter called around 8:30AM, asking if she could come by and pick up the car to take to work today. I asked why and she said its been a hassle to go every day by bus to work and she wanted one day to go in with the car for a change of pace. She had to take a bus to get to my office (about 20 minutes away) and from there would drive in to her work. She said she'd return in the evening to pick me up again. I did a quick mental calculation and figured that she didnt have much time in between work to do any mischief with the psychopath, and, figured this was a gesture I could do that might generate some positive sentiments with her. Still I noted the mileage on the odometer so I could later verify that she in fact went to work. When she picked me up in the evening, I immediately noticed 160 kilometers elapsed on the odometer, instead of the expected 50 kilometers round-trip to her office and back.I didnt say anything initially, because we had an opportunity to spend 20 minutes together and I wanted to see if we could start speaking more comfortably again. We in fact had a relaxed and pleasant talk. She told me about the apartment, her job, which she continues to like and is proud of, etc. When we got home, I confronted her with the facts on the odometer, and asked her why she lied to me. She said she felt coerced to lie (she rarely lied in the past) because she said she needed the car for personal reasons and not for work. If she asked for personal reasons, being the way things are, she said I would have refused. She took a day off from work and attended to the personal reasons. I said, yes, being the way things are, requesting the car for an unexplained personal reason would not have been accepted. Being that we were speaking about something that already occurred, I asked what was the personal issue ? She refused to tell me. Anyway, I didnt make too big a noise about it - but made sure she understood that I felt uncomfortable with what she did. I called my wife, told her the story, and without hesitating, said that probably the psychopath made her take him somewhere. Anyone want to comment on this ?

Jan, you mentioned, as have Segaya and others previously, that psychopaths try to get access to resources, money, lifestyle,etc either from the person they are preying on or his/her family. Reasons have been given as to why someone may stay with a psychopath. OK, I understand that now. But is it reasonable to expect that there are situations out there where the psychopath indeed gets money, resources, respect, etc from the family of the person the psychopath is preying on ? I mean, in our case, after 10 days of knowing him, it quickly evolved into a situation where we refuse to speak to him, and ended up detesting him - and of course he'll see no money. I wouldnt give him a glass of water. Are we more the exception or more the rule in these cases ? Its hard to see how psychopaths can con and manipulate into getting things out of a whole family, but maybe I'm wrong.

Best regards to all

Ace

Hello Ace

This seems to be a step on the right direction and you are right to be optimistically cautious. Firstly, if things go wrong your daughter will NEED you, she will have to ask to come home but knows the door is always open to her. You have the upper hand here, not that it's about scoring points...it's all about getting your 'real' daughter back.

The lying about the car and 'blaming' you for making her lie is all about denial-just like alcoholics. In some ways a positive sign that she knows what she is doing is not right. A double edged sword allowing her the car but if it opened up a topic for debate then another positive thing. Has the man got a car...one you have seen? (Did you get the registration number to trace it?) Why would he need your daughter to drive him ...your wife is probably right...where was he going and why did he need to be seen in your car? Where was his? So many questions about that!

If you look at a radius on the map of her journey can you guess where she has been?

You asked about seeing a psychopath for what he is, that is tricky one. For a start you are particularly alert, intelligent, wise and went with your gut instinct. This man was using your daughter to get to you and if just like my father was when I was young your antenna is sensitive. Psychopaths only seem to be able to deal with one person at a time and your daughter was the conduit to you which makes it more difficult for him.

I think people like you (and me) are the exception because we see through these people as though they were glass but to be fair to those who have fallen for the hype, charm, lies we are not the primary target so have the benefit of being one step removed. We have no interest in being part of their life. My partner's kid could charm the socks off anyone by the age of 9 but he made my flesh crawl...just instict to begin with but I'm pleased I listened to it.

Let's hope this is the start and end of a new era in this relationship.

Regards
Jan

Hi Ace,
I think I can give a good example of how this is done....( the money thing)
You know by now my oldest son is the psychopath.
He and his former girlfriend met in jail..
They wanted to have a baby straight away and for the time being live in their car... This all to force the government to give them a nice hous with several rooms.. ( to grow their
own weet....)
She did get pregant and came to me for help, in that time they lived in the same town I am...They thought I would gave them a room wiating for that nice house they want ....I convinced her not to have this baby!
You have to know that I am very much against abortion but they were around 17 and 18 years of age at that time. I am ill and not capabel of taking care of a baby and my son is continualy high on drugs.....they both didn't have a job and really lived in the car most of the time.
Anyway, not long after that she got pregnant again and they moved to her mothers town.... They got a house indeed but quit small. All the money my son made with working went to the drugs...The mother and stepfather of this girl were both working people. They refused to give any money but they did the weekly shoppings for food and all that is needed in a family. when the rent wasn't payed her parent took care of that also..it came to a point that my son made a big fight with me because I didn't do that. not even for my grandson!!!! Again he had proof that I am that bad, bad mother....( I am on welfare because of being too ill to work so I cant help out anyway...)'
My son said it is normal that the man of the family works and that because he is the one who works he is intitled to spend the money as he pleases..Paying bills and paying for foods is something he never understood is normal..He lives ..so he is intitled to it all..finish. that is not his responsebillity, it is the parents or the governments problem..and he expects those to take care of it all and not bother him with it in any way.
he gets his money sometimes from work and stealing and because he is the 'provider' he is the boss and the girlfriend had to do as she is told by him.
he really feels the parents have a livelong obligation towards him and the family he has on that moment.
The parents don't want their daughter and grandchild to starve so feel obligated to do the shopping and pay rent so at least they have a roof over their head....This is the way he playes the parents..And that is the way a lot of psychopaths do it...
He is on drugs, others will have probably an other excuse why there is no money 'for the time being'...forgetting to tell that this 'time being' is forever when not being carefull....
Now when you know this and remember the psychopath in your house made the remark that your house and properties are not yours.... do you understand that saying better now????
For this is not yours so it is commen.. so it is there for who ever needs it;..him forinstance..Oke, it is twisted thinking but I think you know what I mean?!!
That is the trick you know..think twisted and you can follow there next step for quit sometime..till they go really in the psychopath area and then we loose control....
the only thing left when that is happening is look for shelter... know where is save and lean against that...and beware for everything that can happen.

I was thinking about the story with your car today..... tricky!!!!
Thinking about what I would do in that kind of situation; I came to the conclusion i wouldn't give the car anymore...
Not because I don't trust her with driving..I do....But because the car is the item at the moment he is using to get something done that is not right. On top of it all, it is the thing that makes her having to ly to me... Because of him...so if she can't take it anymore and knows so, there is no need to ly about it anymore.....
So this could be the way to stop that kind of lying And on top of it all, you make clear to the psychopath that he can't mess with you, not even through using your daughter.
To the daughter there is the messages that she is oke..but the situation makes that the rules change....
You have to let go,she is intitled to make her own decisions and so she is to make the wrong ones , but that doesn't mean you have to follow that example blindly.

well that is my way of thinking ( because of my oldest son, my youngest son is great so I think and act differently with him)..Maybe it helps you to get to yours for these situations are so very different from the normal ones....
Take care and be strong...
Love Segaya

Hi Segaya -

Thank you for your last post. The description of your son & girfriend's behavior was quite educational and enlightening. It was rather scary as well. I would hate to see my daughter end up like that. My hope is that in contrast to your son's girlfriend, our psychopath didnt meet my daughter in jail. She's lived a pretty productive and positive life so far, comes from a stable family, so I hope she still has the tools to judge right from wrong. Still, he has been able to recruit her on his behalf to try to get things out of us. The latest incident was with the car. She will now be punished by not being able to use the car. Period. She will learn there is a consequence for trying to do these things. She turned down the few hundred dollars / month I offered her a few weeks ago (apparently not enough for the psychopath) and insulted her parents about it ? Fine. She will get no money. Period. No longer negotiable. She's upset I dont respect her boyfriend ? Correct. I didnt respect him, I dont respect him, and I will never respect him. Period. Non-negotiable, end of discussion.

She did sign the apartment contract last night, although I dont know when she will actually move yet. I wish her good luck but she will not get anything materially from us as long as she is with him and behaving the way she is. Making a secretary's salary, after paying rent, expenses, etc., I know she will not have much extra money to give him (which is very good). I am confident she can live on her own - in her army days not so long ago, she actually lived under much more adverse conditions (lived in tents for a few months, led soldiers on all-night treks in the desert, etc) and it did a lot of good for her character.

Now it is much clearer to me why the psychiatrist was very blunt about the situation: have nothing to do with the psychopath, resrict car usage where possible to prevent her from seeing him, he's a monster, etc. Use 'tough-love' on your daughter. He said she will thank you in the future for it. I dont remember if I mentioned it previously, but he also warned us to beware of what psychologists tell us. He said they may advise 'trying to understand her', 'compromising with her' etc. Now I understand that anything that indirectly makes the psychopath feel good is bad news.

This psychopath can say whatever he wants and pump in whatever logic he wants into her head, but at the end of the day she will see that life doesnt translate to anything good with him - and we will not give any cushion to make it any easier. Not for her and not for him.

On a lighter note, we've come up with a name for my wife. We'll call her "Alice". Alice sends regards to everyone.

Thanks

Ace & Alice

Hi Ace and Alice...
There is a smile on my face right now!!!!
You get it!!!!
Congratulations are in place...no I am not making fun of you by saying that..honest!!!!
It has to be so hard to understand a bit of what is psychopathy about, that I find it amazing that you seem to understand so quickly!!!!
It means you really, really , studied this disorder and carefully read our postings indeed.
That means now that there is a future for you and your daughter...
Indeed many people who don't know this disorder, or don't know it well enough, will make the mistake of wanting to 'understand' the psychopath or the ones involved with them....When knowing the greater view it is not hard to understand there is no understanding at all.. There is knowing yourself, who you are, what you want and don't want and set the rules....!!!!!
I met a sociologist once that worked in a long stay facility for the government. he was there working with psychopaths and like to think of himself as the proffesional.... Yeah,well.. What he said is; 'we don't make the diagose of psychopathy because we don't want to take hope away from these people''...!!! PPpff the **** didn't even understand psychopaths don't have hope!!! They don't even know what hope is....And those proffesionals want us to take them seriously?!

Like it or not; you are well on your way to be the expert on this subject very soon.You understand much more then most people will after years of studying. You and your wife did this in a matter of days!! Incredible... Ohh if you only would know how proud this makes me feel!
Proud because now you are able to help your daughter in the near future, proud because he can't get any grip on you any more whatsoever!! Proud because you will be able to spot a psychopath from a distance now.. and who knows in the future will be able to help others to survive them....

The problems are not over yet, but when holding on to the attitude you got now the changes you will survive it is much more.... With the people around you who do understand this disorder and hopefully this forum, together we will make it possible to overcome this time in you live and afterwards look back with a smile on your face for knowing you all came out well....


It will be hard though to keep your own rules... For you know it don't you.. as a parent you punish a child and get punished as hard as... If a child is grounded, the parent is also, for he/she has to see that the child stays in... So with this it is the same...
Did you read the last posting of Damaskrose... She writes about some sayings ( expressions?) that are so very true!!!
I hope you and Alice will keep up the good work and you know it, don't you;.. when needed we all are just one posting away!!!
Love Segaya

It's a while since I posted though I have been keeping up with how all are. I really was -am - worn out and feeling miserable, with another left field assault from the ex and also reading some studies that brought home to me how abnormal a lot of the past was and how subtle yet I kept on going (know I shouldn't blame myself but sort of do). This time, he agreed to take his two teen children to NY then decided to take the smart son rather thn the sensitive daughter. It also meant I didn't know if I could try for a break myself as I have had no private time to reach some calm and perspective.

The effects were to divide and conquer us - the favourite son began to explain his father's reasons, becoming angry at me, the daughter felt left out and disrespected, so my little family was being attacked and I was furious but powerless.

The best study to date I read is by Marie Therese Hirigoyen Stalking the Soul (through amazon, pub c. 1997) , which repeated conversations I could have had myself - the destabilising, the creation of doubt and the confusion.I also read that gaslighting US book, which was OK but prettified. And am into Wolves in Sheeps clothing, which is milder but humane.

How to move on? I wake some mornings wishing I didn't wake up and feeling life is over and I made a mess of my choices, although I know rationally this is reactive and will pass. But it takes so long and absorbs so much energy. I am also trying not to recall events from the past which take on a new resonance now I know better. Fighting with me when I was in labour - ouch!

I'm managing my work but not going out personally and smoking much more than I did. I am also very angry - he is apparently going from strength to stregth so I am probably a little jealous too. It scares me he is so callous, and that people like me try more and more in the belief that if we do enough, please enough, appease enough, fix enough it will work out. I am disgusted atmyself for the past and don't know how to move on. I'm furious he is messing with the children too especially as he wouldn't agree a parenting plan so he does what he wishes when it suits. And I'm disgusted he is such a respected admired person publicly - I wish pople knew and I know too I am at risk of being provoked.

How to keep going?

Hi Eva,
Long time no see, but glad you are back....
it doesn't sound good, does it!!!
But keep going on..everthing passes and this will also.. But it takes time, time to sort it all out,time to make everything smooth again and time to recover...And taken this all takes place at the same time, the recovery always seems to come last..
But always remember; Everything you are doing now is for the good. it will take time to find it's place but in the futurebyou will benefit a great deal of all the work you are doing now.
Like i say a lot,..you plant the seed now... But it will take time to let it grow..But once it is grown then you can take the fruits of all your hard work..So stay strong and when needed you can get the support you need from us.
glad to hear some from you again!!
greetings Segaya

Thank you and respect, Segaya. he is still devoted to making me anxious and unfortunately I do not always notice, even now.

Hello Eva

It's good to hear from you again.
From what you say it sounds as though you are looking back and trying to put things into place retrospectively but know it's impossible and that causes frustration and anger neither of which will provide a solution -one that you know doesn't exist. Being angry is draining and it's understandable you are exhausted.

I can imagine you going round in circles in your head and not surprised you are suffering from depression. Time does put a distance between what happened and how we learn to cope with it. Reading all you can to get knowledge and understanding of what you were dealing with is a great way to confirm that you were suffering because of a person who you had no control over. Knowledge will give you back control ...of how you can deal with moving on.
It's sad that your family has been split and your son doesn't yet see the reality, maybe it won't take him long if he is with his father in a different setting, he may even be his father's next victim.

Please try to look after yourself, don't let this man destroy you or make you feel guilty about any of the things he forced on the family. I know it's easy to say but you do need some special time just for yourself even if it's something as simple as a soak in the bath by candle light with relaxing music. You deserve to pamper yourself after what you have been through.
I really can understand that feeling of jealousy that such injustice is overlooked by others. Life has a way of turning things round and his day will come, he will be exposed in some way.

You have come this far and it's still early days, you have a career and a daughter and it does take time to rebuild a life but you are well on the way. A few years ago I would never have believed it if someone had told me that my life would change so radically and I would be the one in a position of strength. It will happen to you too, you are a very strong person but it's only natural to have times of fear, regret or a desire to put the past right.

We will always be here on the forum whenever you need support. I will be interested in what happens to this man in the future but more interested in your future.

Regards
Jan

I've just come across this forum, and this thread is the first I read. I was hooked, because it rang so true to my own experiences. Ace, I do hope things have got better since your last post, and with any luck the psychopath is out of your life. I thought I had to relate my own story, as it also related to our daughter.

My wife (who I'll call Maria) and I have a daughter (I'll call her Greta). Greta already had a history of abusive relationships. She is easily influenced, and invariably ends up adapting her whole lifestyle to that of her partner of the moment. She had a daughter from one failed relationship, who I'll call June. Maria and I doted on June from the moment she was born and provided enormous emotional and childcare support in her early years, giving her much of the stability she would otherwise have lacked from not having a father. Greta and June came to live very close by to us, and we paid the deposit on Greta's flat.

Around 7 years ago, when June was 6, Greta started going out with a psychopath, who I'll call Fred. Of course when I first met Fred, I didn't realise he was a psychopath. In fact I was quite impressed with him, and thought he was a cut above the usual types that Greta usually chose. He said he was an accountant working in mergers and acquisitions, and he talked a really good story.

Over the next few weeks, he gradually started taking over making the arrangements for when June would visit us. After a while that started getting on our nerves, and we told Greta. By this time they'd already announced their engagement. Fred came round one day unannounced and told us in no uncertain terms that we'd just have to get used to him being June's father, and we'd have to deal with him as an equal parent to Greta.

Fred got more and more into our face, we heard less and less from Greta, and we got more and more frustrated. He started being verbally abusive to us, started talking about Greta's flat as "his house", and was plainly in totalitarian control over Greta and June.

After they got married, things got worse and worse. It reached the point where every time the phone rang, we were afraid it would be him, and we got the shakes. It was clear he was doing this on purpose to upset us. Half the time we did speak to him, he would scream down the phone abusively at us.

We finally wrote him a note saying to stop calling, asking him to apologise for his rudeness. He wrote back a rambling hate mail letter, countersigned by Greta, saying he wouldn't apologise, but we would have to apologise to him sincerely, and until we did we couldn't see any more of June.

This was the start of 2 years of hell. After we couldn't stand any more not seeing our grandchild, whom we loved to bits, we would try to make peace with him. Fred loved it when we did this, as he would lay down lots of conditions that we'd have to comply with. As soon as he deemed we'd breached a condition, visitations would cease. The first gap when we couldn't see June lasted a couple of months, and each time it got longer. This on-off situation went on for about a year, after which we decided we would go crazy if we kept on playing is manipulative games. There was then a gap of about 10 months.

By this time I'd worked out that he was a psychopath. Greta was a mature adult, but June was an innocent child. We simply didn't know what to do to rescue her from him. We thought about going to social services, but were afraid that it would make things worse, and we might lose June for ever. We endured month after month of no contact with either Greta or June, with Fred continuing to phone us or call round on various pretexts. He told us that they had decided "as a family" that Fred would from now on be their only spokesman on all matters.

All this may sound surreal, and it was, but he was a master manipulator. The worst thing was that our daughter was unwilling or unable to stand up to him, and allow us to have a normal relationship with June without Fred's bullying.

By the way, a background check had turned up a previous conviction for theft in the US and an arrest for possession of cocaine.

Fred started his own accountancy 'business', from what I can tell with Greta's money. I knew there was something fishy about it, but didn't realise how fishy. For one thing he was calling himself a "chartered accountant" when he wasn't. He was operating tax avoidance schemes for people, including for immigrants. One day we learned that the 3 of them were moving to Portugal. Before they left we learned that Fred was having arguments over money with various people, with the police starting to get involved. We didn't know it at the time, but Fred was fleecing his clients, depositing their hard earned money in trust accounts and embezzling it.

We got to see June for a few days, she came over to stay with us for the last time. She was 9 years old, and our relationship was as warm and loving as ever. Then Greta came to pick her up and they disappeared out of our lives.

At the time they were leaving the country, Greta was selling her flat. Being unwilling to see Fred get his hands on Greta's assets, Maria put a caution on the flat claiming back the deposit. As it turned out, they were unable to sell the flat with the caution until the deposit was repaid, which it was. Fred's retaliation was to mail us a photo booth picture of him with June, followed by a demand for repaying the "stolen" money, threatening criminal charges. He got Greta and June to sign this!

About 8 months after they had left, the police came round to our house asking if we knew Fred's whereabouts. We understood he was wanted for questioning on suspicion of fraud.

After they had been gone about 2 years, we learned (via a friend of Greta's) that Fred had been arrested in transit through a UK airport. We thought he would finally face justice, and he'd be out of all our lives. No such luck. We learned he was back in Portugal and they were all moving to South Africa (where he was born). We think he may have skipped bail.

Fast forward to last March (2008)... We hadn't had direct contact with Greta or June for 3 1/2 years. Out of the blue we were phoned up by a South African childrens home charity. Both Fred and Greta were in prison in South Africa on fraud charges, bail had been denied, and the childrens home was looking after June. After a few weeks of to-ing and fro-ing, June was sent to come and live with us in England. The social workers had quickly came to the conclusion that this was a no-brainer, and Greta had reluctantly given them her consent. She was presented with only one other option - June could be put into care of the South African state. Greta would have to then prove she was a fit mother to reclaim her child!

June is now living with us and our relationship is once again very close. She left our lives as a 9 year old and returned the day before her 13th birthday. We have managed to slowly undo most of the brainwashing she endured over the years. She always was very special, and she's becoming a confident and intelligent young lady. Greta and Fred are on trial, and it's expected to drag on for some months more. We don't know whether Greta will be convicted, her lawyers appear confident that thecase against her is very weak, but Fred is in serious trouble for sure. He's also facing extradition after this case to the UK on even more serious charges. Fred has defrauded individuals and institutions out of millions of pounds. He is expected to serve several years in jail.

It's clear that Fred manipulated Greta to turn a blind eye to everything except what she wanted to see. He created a house of cards that appeared to Greta to be a royal palace: they lived the high life travelling to exotic places, driving flash cars, and living in grand mansions. Then one day a warrant for Fred's arrest was delivered to their beachfront home in South Africa. Stupidly, Greta decided that she and June would join Fred and they all went on the run and into hiding. June was even pulled out of school - I still don't know what Greta can have been thinking. I know she loves June, but she had entered into a Faustian pact with Fred. She has even told me over the phone that she had been thinking of leaving Fred. She is now paying a heavy price for her misplaced loyalty. We are sorry for her situation, but strangely it may have been the only wake-up call that could have worked.

We are able to exchange letters and phone calls from time to time with Greta. We are not 100% sure, but she seems to have seen the light. She plans to come back to England as soon as possible, and says she loves and misses us. We have told her our doors are always open. She will be virtually penniless. We are using the reclaimed deposit from her flat to pay for June's education. We're sure Greta will bounce back. She may come across in my story as being a weakling, but that's not really so. She's easily influenced, it's true, but she's resilient and an optimist by nature. I only hope she doesn't get mixed up with another psychopath. She needs a lot of healing - unfortunately she will always bear some scars, we're sure.

Fred has also tried to make phone contact with June. We have consistently hung up on him, and June (after our careful and patient explanations) is in full agreement. She understands that he is a psychopath. She doesn't miss him and has written to her mum to say so. We have written to his lawyers informing him that we will not permit him to have any contact with June, and we have copied the letter to social services in both England and South Africa. No one we've spoken to has told us we've done the wrong thing - even Greta.

We don't know what the future will bring, but we are increasingly confident that things will turn out okay. If you'd asked me 6 months ago, I would have been very pessimistic. We thought we'd lost them forever. We hope Greta will recover from this trauma once she's released from prison, whenever that is. At least June is doing fine.

I've condensed my story quite a lot - I could probably write a book. Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction! The story is not yet finished, but we are cautiously optimistic that there will be a happy ending. It's been 7 years and counting...

Hello Matty

Welcome to the forum and thank you for telling us your story. So many things sound familiar and it is great to hear that there is light at the end of your tunnel. I'm sure if you had written on the forum a few years ago it would have been from a completely different perspective.

Telling your story when it is finally coming to a conclusion is just what we need to hear to boost the morale of our members. I'm looking forward to hearing more from you and I'm sure many of the members would like to know how you and 'Maria' found ways of getting through your ordeal.

Good luck and best wishes to all of you. I hope you get your daughter back a wiser woman. Maybe there will be a time when she can tell her story.

Regards
Jan

Interesting posts.... I'm new to the forum and in a similar dilemma. I see the posts were written some years ago... Ace and Matty can you provide an update on your daughter?

Hi whenwillthisend, welcome to our community. I always leave posts available for the many readers we get who don't always post. Now that you have posted, this thread will move up. If you would like to ask any questions or need support for your specific case I am sure we can help you.

Di