Neverthesame, I pray for a good outcome for your dear loved one.

Di

Leti's post:
>One of the things I am realizing is that the verbal abuse and invalidation have been part of my life since very early childhood. And It is hard for me to reconcile those feelings with my love for and desire to be respectful to my parents. So I would rather not look at it.<
Finished's Post:
>What I particulary loved about the book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" was it finally made it clear to me THAT THIS WAS ABUSE. My way of dealing with it was to become numb to it<

When you talk about becoming numb to abuse over a lifetime, it is as if we have disassociated from it. Put ourselves into a trance like state, so we don't hear it or see it. Anyone who has grown up in a dysfunctional family ( is there any that are truly functional??), has learned to do this from childhood, to protect ourselves from the stark reality of whats really going on. This is not about blaming our parents or ourselves. But to recognize where and when we disassociate abuse as adults.It is as if we shut done our antennae for recognizing abuse. And it is this we have to heal from. To actually wake up from the trance our childhood put us in. Sometimes I would like to put the hood back over my head. But I can't. I struggle daily with words that come out of my mouth and actions I do, to shut me out from truly connecting intimately with people. I was trained to protect myself from abuse by shutting off. But it also shut down the mechanism to be truly intimate. One part of the P was able to be truly intimate, I had never in my life been able to connect that strongly with someone. Growing up as I did, I even found it hard to connect with my child. The P experience made me aware of just how disconnected I really was. Losing my daughter 10 years ago, made me disconnect all the more. I want to be part of a loving family, I just don't know how to. My whole life I have surrounded myself with people who don't really care. The P experience was just the final kicker of them all.

Betrayed

>Oh Betrayed. . .

I don't know how I missed this post from you! Thank you so much for your kind words. I think it was you that encouraged me to keep going back to the battered womans center. I did and will be starting in the group next Tuesday.

I will get the books that you recommended! It has been AMAZING the things that have surfaced. So much so I returned to my $90 per hour counselor for a session to run by her all I had uncovered on my "archelogical" dig. I love her. She is the one that told me I had GREAT INSTINCTS!.. She was equally as validating as I shared my thoughts and ideas. She told me I was SO RIGHT ON! And today I thought, if that had been a man counselor. . .I don't think his ego could have let me figure all that out without his guidence. God bless you Betrayed, you have been a tremendous help to me.

finished<

(((Finished))))I don't think I have had a chance to thank you for this lovely post. Yes it was me that held your hand and got you to go back to that battered womens center. How are those group sessions going? You've come so far! You have said so many insightful things, that have helped me too. Thank you Finished.

Betrayed.

>>When you talk about becoming numb to abuse over a lifetime, it is as if we have disassociated from it. Put ourselves into a trance like state, so we don't hear it or see it. Anyone who has grown up in a dysfunctional family ( is there any that are truly functional??), has learned to do this from childhood, to protect ourselves from the stark reality of whats really going on. This is not about blaming our parents or ourselves. But to recognize where and when we disassociate abuse as adults.It is as if we shut done our antennae for recognizing abuse. And it is this we have to heal from. To actually wake up from the trance our childhood put us in. Sometimes I would like to put the hood back over my head. But I can't. I struggle daily with words that come out of my mouth and actions I do, to shut me out from truly connecting intimately with people. I was trained to protect myself from abuse by shutting off. But it also shut down the mechanism to be truly intimate.<<

betrayed, your post is so insightful to me. My counselor and I have just barely touched on the the verbal abuse and bullying I experienced when I was a child. I, too, struggle with what comes out of my mouth. I put up walls that shut out others. Especially after knowing the p. I don't trust very many people, if ever I really did. I was bullied in grade school and junior high. I thought I had put all that behind me. But now days when I remember it, or talk about it tears come to my eyes. I have alot of healing to do. But I am motivated. The pain of that P. has just about destroyed me.

I see myself just as sick as the P., but in a different way.

Others just seem to love the P. He is such a charmer. Nobody at my office knows him like I do. He brought out the best of me, for awhile, then tried to destroy me. I know this is a silly question, does anyone believe that people can be friends with the P., and not be hurt? Maybe it is due to my past, that made this experience with the P., so traumatic for me. I think what makes a P. so scary is the fact that all his manipulation is underhanded, and no one sees it until it is to late and the damage has been done. He does alot of emotional manipulation. I see people just cling to him, as if he is their world. I use to be a clinger.

Hope everybody had a good thanksgiving!!

betterway

> betrayed, your post is so insightful to me. My counselor and I have just barely touched on the the verbal abuse and bullying I experienced when I was a child. I, too, struggle with what comes out of my mouth. I put up walls that shut out others. Especially after knowing the p. I don't trust very many people, if ever I really did. I was bullied in grade school and junior high. I thought I had put all that behind me. But now days when I remember it, or talk about it tears come to my eyes. I have alot of healing to do. But I am motivated. The pain of that P. has just about destroyed me.

(((Betterway))). It will get better. I used the experience of the P to do a lot of grief work from my past. It was if all my defences had been stripped off. I think the experience with the P was a blessing in disguise. There is no way I could have broke through those defences on my own. I didn't know what was under them at the time. Repressed memories of all kinds of abuse.


> I see myself just as sick as the P., but in a different way.<


Similar but different, you didn't lose your empathy or conscience like they did.

>Others just seem to love the P. He is such a charmer. Nobody at my office knows him like I do. He brought out the best of me, for awhile, then tried to destroy me. I know this is a silly question, does anyone believe that people can be friends with the P., and not be hurt? Maybe it is due to my past, that made this experience with the P., so traumatic for me. I think what makes a P. so scary is the fact that all his manipulation is underhanded, and no one sees it until it is to late and the damage has been done. He does alot of emotional manipulation. I see people just cling to him, as if he is their world. I use to be a clinger<



Charmer is the operative word here. To charm someone. They need people to cling to them, be dependent on them, be in awe of them.


I think that's what saved me, I didn't do any of that.He messed up my mind, confused me, played head games, etc. but try as he might, I didn't get jealous, become dependent, nor was I in awe of him.. I remember towards the end he kept saying to himself, "I'm losing my power". I didn't have a clue what he was talking about then, I do now.

I had done lots of healing from my past before the P. As a child I was painfully shy, not many friends, scared to speak up. As an adult, I am quite the opposite. Maybe too independent, too strong. It doesn't matter which way you are, a P will find a way manipulate you, until you find out all their techniques. Or learn to recognize them, and learn to shun them.

As I look back on the P experience, it was if he played me like a game of chess that I didn't know I was playing, and no matter which way I moved, I was cornered.


No matter what happened to us in our pasts, there is absolutely no way we can even come close to being as sick as a P. They are underhanded, unscrupulous, lying, cheating, conniving, controlling, dominating, closed up tighter than a drum, manipulating, conning creeps. Their middle name is "seek and destroy".


I don't think it was your past or my past that made the experience with the P traumatic, they have a natural talent for wreaking havoc and destroying lives. Everything they touch turns to S***.

Yes, they bring us up, but just so when they pull the rug out from under us, we have that much further to fall.

Betrayed.

PS. I'm starting to detect a little anger in my posts. As Martha Stewart says, "That's a good thing."

I found a nice site with some valuable information on it about domestic violence and abuse.

Betrayed.


http://hometown.aol.com/Blue10197/poison.html

There is both a quantitative difference and a qualitative difference between the 'garden variety' abusiveness of ordinary people and the uncommon variety of abusiveness of chronic abusers...and this is something that even counselors/therapists, attorneys, law enforcement people, health care personel often do not understand UNLESS they have the specialized training and experience in domestic violence. (And it is important to say, that even many victims of domestic violence do not understand these differences and distinctions between common abusiveness and the abusiveness of chronic abusers!)

1. The abuse of a chronic abuser is SYSTEMATIC and CONTINUOUS with few let-ups after the initial 'capture' of the victim and after the 'honeymoon' periods in the 'cycle of violence'. The pressure of the continuous disapproval and hostility aimed at the victim/s is not occasional and haphazard...although it may be at first in a marriage or relationship. As time goes on, and the isolation of the victim increases...the abuse usually increases and usually covers all areas of their contact with one another. (For example, during the early part of the marriage, the abuse may only have been on Sunday afternoon, when the couple is together and the abuser is restless and bored but must stay home together because of lack of money, etc. Later, the abuser is abusive on certain evenings of the week Still later, the chronic abuser is abusive every evening AND all day Sunday...still later, he is abusive and hostile all of the time.) But the victim of the abuse may not h! ave noticed the gradual increase of the abusiveness.

2. The abuse of a chronic abuser is qualitatively different than the abuse of an ordinary person. The chronic abuser has an AGENDA and this agenda is to control and dominate his victim...and if necessary to do so...to destroy the victim of abuse because he will not tolerate losing control of his target! Now, an ordinary person wanting occasionally to control WILL be uncomfortable about not getting his/her way and not being able to pressure or manipulate others to get his or her way...but a chronic abuser will be terribly upset, and displays a distinctly resolute obsessiveness and will escalate the abuse to both punish his 'target' and in an attempt to insure future compliance and subservience by the victim.

For these reasons, it is not wise to follow many of the so-called 'experts' in an attempt to 'educate' a chronic abuser by assertively showing him 'how' you want to be treated.

Such advice is naive and dangerous when dealing with a confirmed and chronic abuser! The chronic abuser KNOWS how his victim would like to be treated...but DOES NOT CARE and WILL NOT CHANGE...the chronic abuser MUST WIN...AT ALL COSTS! A chronic abuser almost never respectfully heeds his victim's assertive instructions and backs down and changes his behavior...a chronic abuser is more likely to become more infuriated and threatening! HE DOES NOT CARE WHAT HIS VICTIM WANTS - BECAUSE IN HIS MIND, SHE IS WRONG AND HE IS RIGHT! The chronic abuser believes to the core of his being that his wife is supposed to follow his direction and anticipate his needs. He believes that he is in charge of her life and he is supposed to dominate and control her life...she is regarded as inherently inferior and is supposed to be subordinate and submissive.

Many chronic abusers would not admit to the above attitudes and hide these behaviors in public and many of them can play a most convincing part of a modern, progressive-minded man in individual therapy, group therapy, in 12 Step groups, in business and professional life and other places where it is necessary to maintain this pretense. Some chronically abusive men can even disguise their hostile misogyny and abusiveness in couples therapy and anger management treatment groups.

I had one incident in which a counselor conducting anger management/treatment groups refused at first to believe a man I'd referred to him for treatment had a problem of being abusive towards his wife. This man, a viciously chronic abuser was a cultured, psychologically sophisticated, highly educated professional man. His appearance was quiet and charming...and he was also a serial batterer who had finally broken his wife's jaw! (His earlier battering left no visible bruises or injuries that she couldn't explain away,,,which she had done until this battery.) But, whewie!...could he ever play the part of the gallant gentleman!!! Many people didn't ever believe he did this to his wife even after this last brutal incident. If he had done this to a stranger on the street...he would have been put away in prison for a long long time. This was around ten years ago and because he was a prominent man and able to hire expensive attorneys and knew all the judges...he was ! put on parole, referred to counseling, treatment for a drug/alcohol problem and 'anger management' treatment. I think he 'conned' everyone but a few of us.

Emotional abuse, verbal abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, deprivation of different types, ie. sleep deprivation...and physical abuse of various types...and other abuse I can't even recall at the moment...are all part of the chronic abuser's arsenal. Many so-called 'experts' seldom work in agency or treatment settings where they come into knowlegeable contact with such persons and often learn nothing about domestic abuse/violence in their clinical training or academic education. Many of these 'experts' minimize the destructiveness of domestic violence. Even most victims of domestic violence, at times, minimize the destructiveness of domestic violence!

Do not fall into the comfortable belief that a woman in the clutches of a chronic abuser can easily escape or defend herself. She CAN escape and she CAN do many things to get to a place that is safer, far healthier and more peaceful. But it is not easy and it requires a lot of effort and planning...and the help of a Higher Power and supportive and informed people. It is dangerously wishful thinking to pretend and hope otherwise.

**edited to make link clickable, Di

I wish I could understand the dynamic better. The description of it is so clear and recognizable. Once you see it, you can't fail to recognize all but the most subtle forms of it. Of course, the subtle forms are maybe more destructive than the more obvious forms of abuse, but even those eventually become recognizable.

But, what bothers me the most now is that I ultimately cannot understand it. I cannot understand why someone needs so much control that they need to virtually destroy the other person. I cannot understand how someone can knowingly and purposely be so hurtful to someone who loves and admires them. I cannot understand all the plotting and planning, the game playing set-up, just to put down someone who really likes or loves you. I cannot understand why no good deed goes unpunished. I cannot understand the need to betray, to deceive, to cheat. And, so on.

Try as I might, I cannot empathize with the abuser, feel what he feels, see the world through his eyes. It makes no sense to me, --why he would take something so wonderful, given to him as a gift, the love of a beautiful girlfriend, wife, children, whatever, and need to smash it to smithereens, defile it, destroy it. I feel that if I can't understand it, then I can't trust myself to recognize it again until it is too late. This is the ultimate victory over me, I still feel like the world is a dangerous place where, if I'm not careful, I can stumble into a black hole from which there is no escape and for which there is no reason.

But, I know that this is satan's trick, --it is doubting God's goodness and protection; it is not trusting God's wonderful plan for me. So, I need to make a constant choice, to align myself with God instead of the abuser, to align myself with love instead of the accuser. It is hard work, where understanding has to constantly be replaced by faith. I am not a general in the battle of good versus evil, just a foot soldier.

Molly

Hi Molly and Everyone,

I wish I could understand the dynamic too Molly. I do not understand NO CONSCIENCE most of all. How anyone can lie, cheat, steal, deceive, betray, plan, etc... etc... etc... there is no end to what horror they will do. I just don't get it. It is the antithesis of love. But Molly, I am not sure about recognizing the subtle forms. That scares me....

I am starting to date again. I hardly ever am attracted to anyone. One of my concerns is my ability to recognize the subtle forms. I know the warning signs cold. But in many ways I feel like I am in kindergarten. I am out of my element. In my business life I have no problem. I am relatively emotionally healthy again in most ways. I just don't know how to do this folks. I am so wary, I am not sure I will let anyone in. On the other hand I am lonely, need human touch, and want connection. I do not want to let that need blind me. Tonight I met someone that likes me. I talked, laughed, engaged with others too, but left with knowing this wasn't for me. I just feel yucky. I don't know how to do this yet.

I am not particularly religious, but I consider myself spiritual. I believe everyone finds their own way to God. My spiritual path is different from yours Molly, but I do believe in faith, love, hope, trust, and goodness. I do trust that I will find my way. Letting God work through the people in my life is one of those ways. Listening to the voice within is another. Being humble enough to say I hurt and ask for help is another. I pray that I find my way through this new challenge too and that I remain open and teachable. I want to leave the legacy of Psychopathy, familial, and lover alike, far behind. I chose life, health, and wholeness over darkness.

Neverthesame

Hi Molly. I don't know about you, but I am so hypersensitive to abuse now, they are scared to come within 40 yards of me. LOL

Betrayed.

Finished,

I read some but not all of your post. I read tons of litterature on the subject but this is the first time I read testimonies. And yours sound similars. I feel I am a magnet for p's. Great! I have been married to one, but was young so i imagine i would know better when older. the new p's was highly intelligent and manipulative. therefore i have been trapped in a friendship/relationship for 2 years. although i was always feeling compelled for more development in the relationship i had the feeling that something was wrong. it was a professor from the university i had graduated. at first, i was scared to create conflicts, but then once i thought i was putting limits, it became worst.i guess he knew the game already.
i like when you said something eversince you met the p you head was spinning, that is how my mind became. i tend to obsess a little but that has been worst than usual, because words are so dearly important to p's they know which one to use. i never had anything sexual with him but he knew i was interested in him, and at first he was always hitting on me with strategies that I now see typical of a p.
anyhow although he had not rob me and nor violated me but has played with my mind tremendously. he has discredited me professionally and has made me put my face for him many times. I guess i went to the worst insults of my life. now that i am not isolated anylonger i do hear some similar comments from some people around. but i guess that with some of the people in his milieu he must have been more careful or probably not but the comments i get are always restricted. I feel all of us are scared to comment fearing the worst. it is quite sick.when i remember all of it, i get scared because it was crazy and unexplainable.eventhough i have some friends psychologists, we weren't able to understand what was going on else that it wasn't not healthy. but surely i feel great that i am not alone, we have had all those experience.