Thanks (((Finished))). I really appreciate your support. I haven't read the Hotchkiss book yet. Sounds great!


> Had this episode with P#2 not happened, I would have never been put in a position to dig so deeply for answers. I am now finding peices to the puzzle that have been a mystery my whole life. The greatest discovery however is finding out. . .they lied. I always was trying to "prove" I was better than what they thought. Now. . .it's no longer necessary. I have discovered the truth for myself. Best part is now, no one can take it away! That is probably the greatest gift I have received in this whole deal. I am finding myself. . .at last<

My whole life, everything I ever did or said, everything now makes sense.

That we believed all their lies for all these years is just mind boggling. They lied, they lied. They lied.

What I did, is took everything they had me believe and turned it around. Part of the lie was they were talking about themselves. The other part was everything I did well, they told me I did poorly. Everything I did not so great at, they told me I did well. All the perceptions (my thoughts and feelings) I had over the years were correct, but they convinced me I was wrong. They invalidated me. Manipulated my reality. All to control. All to dominate. Typical P tactics.

What a horrific cosmic joke. Generations of living a lie. NO MORE.


How the hell we managed to get as far as we did, is incredible.

Betrayed.

Betrayed!

>>All the perceptions (my thoughts and feelings) I had over the years were correct, but they convinced me I was wrong. They invalidated me. Manipulated my reality. All to control. All to dominate. Typical P tactics.<<

Betrayed!!!! That totally mirrors my whole experience with my family of orgin!

I shared at group last night that the masks are NOW off. I SEE the players for who and what they are! It has been like walking through a chamber of horrors as I have unmasked them. My supporters, my confidants, my heros, my friends, the ones I thought loved and supported me. . .they were my tormenters. They only wanted to control and manipulate me. Feel superior to me. Downgrade me! But under the guise of offering "love" , validation and support. I have been reeling from SHOCK over THAT reality as well!

That book "Why is it always about you" . . .has been for me, the most enlightening information to date. It really tied it altogether for me. Especially about the family dynamics and why I would be drawn (magneted) to this personality type. I highly recommed it. It explains every dynamic including the one in the work place. The information has really given me a new sense of freedom. A place to begin to take back control of my mind and life. A must read!!!

>>What a horrific cosmic joke. Generations of living a lie. NO MORE. <<

Is that not the truth. . . ? A horrific cosmic joke. A very good way to put it.

And the crytic part is ( in my life) it took a horrific P experience to create the trauma. It forced me to unmask and identify the players so I could begin unraveling the mystery. The truth has been shrouded all these years behind masks and disguises. What I discovered is I have played my role well. I was set up not to sustain success. That would have made "others" look bad. I was my role to make them look good. (remember, I was the family scapegoat). Now, I know why! Oh thank you God!!!!!! The truth indeed does set us FREE!!!!

Just a side note here. I've shared how I have earned a good repetutaion in the industry I work in. I remember well the inflection from my family, it was obviously just good luck and had nothing to do with my hard work, efforts or personal worth. It had probably been an accident. You know right place, right time etc. Some of that factored in but it took hard work to sustain it! Another subtle put down I accepted as truth. I'm becoming more and more aware of those subtle inuendoes now when I hear them. And yes. . .they are sooooo subtle (sometimes you miss them until the conversation is over). Ahh. . .but now. . .I'm aware.

>>How the hell we managed to get as far as we did, is incredible. <<

You got that right betrayed!!! But just think how far we can go now that we are armed with the truth about ourselves!! We've only been operating a half speed now it's full steam ahead!!!

Liars. . .all of them and at our expense!

I'm reclaiming myself! New beginnings betrayed!!!!

We were robbed!
finished

>>Another subtle put down I accepted as truth. I'm becoming more and more aware of those subtle inuendoes now when I hear them. And yes. . .they are sooooo subtle (sometimes you miss them until the conversation is over). Ahh. . .but now. . .I'm aware. <<

It scares me because, I find myself using word games, subtle inuendos, especially when talking with the P. I just got off the phone with him, and I play a little game. But I also know that I tried straight forward conversation with the P. and it didn't work, so maybe I have resorted to what he knows best. I wonder if I learned it from him or if I am just becoming aware of some of my own faults I need to work on.

We still have several business deals we have to finish out, so I speak to him when he calls. Were talking several thousands of dollars. Ok, who am I fooling, finished, like you said in one of your posts, business was the connection you and the P. had. I would probably still answer his call even if it wasn't concerning business.

I'm doing this "No Contact" thing very slowly. Don't give up on me. I am learning so much here, and you all have been a lifesaver. If only you knew me a couple months ago! LOL. betterway

Betterway,

I want to share with you a little about my own experience with the Psychopath.

I had started a business with my Psychopath before the end of the relationship. At that point he controlled who I was and everything I did. That statement is totally out of character for me. Until I came under the spell of a very articulate intelligent stupid conning Psychopath who knew how to use words well and how not to get caught, I was a relatively self confident fairly intelligent woman. My reality changed. The friends I have from that time report my behavior as being totally different from my normal demeanor; I acted fearful, submissive and secretive. I was like a whipped dog.

I lost a good deal of money in leaving my Psychopath. At least two women before me lost many more thousands, and almost lost their lives. There is another woman today, living with him, I suspect on the edge of insanity, and in great trouble. Every time I hear about a murder or assault in the headlines here I cringe. I wait....and worry about her....and at the same time I am grateful for my own recovery. Many of you know that a number of weeks ago I was part of a rescue operation for this woman. I would do it again in a heartbeat. It has made me stronger. I WILL TOLERATE NO MORE ABUSE; PERIOD. My Psychopath antennae are in full operation. I am wary...and strong, but still tenderhearted and able to love.

I was not myself for a very long time. Indeed, I will never be the same. I have a scar, mostly healed, that I will carry for the rest of my life. This is not a normal recovery from just an abusive situation. Brianwashing has many repercussions. I was a basket case. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is not a fun experience. Thank God I am over most of that.

Betterway, hear my story. Please, understand, you can lose your soul. I know the pain of losing the "Great Love" and leaving the Psychopath. It is a small price for sanity, safety, and holding onto the soul and heart of who we are.

Neverthesame

Hi neverthesame,
Thank you for your post. Every single one of the posts I read on here helps me. I find myself getting stronger as I learn more and more about this stuff.

>>I was not myself for a very long time. Indeed, I will never be the same. I have a scar, mostly healed, that I will carry for the rest of my life. This is not a normal recovery from just an abusive situation. Brianwashing has many repercussions. I was a basket case. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is not a fun experience<<

I have PTSD, you are so right, not fun. Wish I had found this place sooner, but I know I found it just in time.
Just a little about where I am today. I have tried to do the "No Contact" rule, even before I found this sight. I fell into a black hole (PTSD), and couldn't do it. Calling the P. was the only way to pull me out. I know this is a very serious illness we are dealing with. I felt like I needed to be hospitalized. My therapists helped pull me through that. When I moved out of my office to work at home, the P. and I talked. He has told me "he doesn't know why he kept doing the things he did to hurt me", admitting some fault, for the first time in a year. Since then he has tried to act civil to me. As long as I am not at the office he acts civil to me on the phone. (I work same place, just from home). In a way I am using him, as I try to break all emotional ties, I want to loose "all contact" with him. It is best for me. As I pull further and further away, he is noticing, and I am getting a little bit of anger out of him. Which puts the fear in me that he will return to his state of mind, where I was the target, and he was going to take me down, no matter what. I still fear that he has the power to take me down even further. I know he can on a business level. My story is very long, as I am sure everybodys is, that has dealt with a P. As he gets angry, I am scared he will quit calling me, I fear my ability to handle that, as I didn't handle it in the pass.
He has called me every business day, for a long time. He did not call me one day recently, and I kinda liked it, I didn't go into major PTSD, progress, yippee!!

Hey Finished, question for you. Does P#2 still call you? How often? How did the final break off of communication happen. Did you two verbalize it, or did it happen gradually? I don't call my P. hardly at all anymore, but he calls me, and I answer, or call him back if I miss his call.

I also go back an forth, between is he a P. or not. Please if you can tell by anything I say, if he is or not, let me know. I think I go into denial, I know he meets alot of the criteria. Maybe he is just and angry ex friend that couldn't handle my confrontation about his way of dealing with people, and maybe he became just a crazy, evil office bully. Now maybe he is being nice to win back my friendship. I want to be strong. I know that is not a chance I should take. I have alot to loose, and this situation is effecting all areas of my life.

Thank you everybody, for helping me to start feeling a little better!!

Betterway

Betterway

>>I know this is a very serious illness we are dealing with. <<

Just for the record betterway, what I've learned is this is not a mental illness but a personality disorder for which there is no cure, no pill, nothing that can help. These types do not respond to therapy because they do not recognize any need for help. They think they are fine.

>> As I pull further and further away, he is noticing, and I am getting a little bit of anger out of him. Which puts the fear in me that he will return to his state of mind, where I was the target, and he was going to take me down, no matter what. I still fear that he has the power to take me down even further. I know he can on a business level. My story is very long, as I am sure everybodys is, that has dealt with a P.<<

I know betterway. . .stories inside of stories. Is there anyway you can go to work somewhere else? I know from my own experience how complex and complicated it all gets. I eventually wound up in business with P#2. I also have one other transaction out there that is worth around $20,000, not an amount to brush off and walk away from. However, it is his connection to me. He calls to find out the status on it at least once a week.

>> As he gets angry, I am scared he will quit calling me, I fear my ability to handle that, as I didn't handle it in the pass.<<

It's the double bind betterway. I feel it also. It's like please don't call but please do. . .

>>Hey Finished, question for you. Does P#2 still call you? How often? How did the final break off of
communication happen. Did you two verbalize it, or did it happen gradually? I don't call my P. hardly at all
anymore, but he calls me, and I answer, or call him back if I miss his call. <<

P#2 called me Monday late afternoon. Wednesday, before Thanksgiving he had called (about business) then the conversation turned to what I was doing over the holiday. Then. . .he said we will have to get together when you get back. I, like you, usually take his calls or at least call him back. I didn't and haven't. But I feel the tension. I know he is expecting me to. The final breakoff has not happened yet as I have this business thing hanging out there. . .and some days I'm tempted to just walk away from it. I'm where you are. He hardly calls, if I miss, I have called him back. I'm carefully thinking about how to end it. In my mind it's over but I haven't yet figured out how I'll put it to him. I keep as much distance as possible and go out of my way not to run into him.

>>I also go back an forth, between is he a P. or not. Please if you can tell by anything I say, if he is or not, let me know. I think I go into denial, I know he meets alot of the criteria. Maybe he is just and angry ex friend that couldn't handle my confrontation about his way of dealing with people, and maybe he became just a crazy, evil office bully. Now maybe he is being nice to win back my friendship. I want to be strong. I know that is not a chance I should take. I have alot to loose, and this situation is effecting all areas of my life. <<

I do the same thing betterway. Is he. . .is he not.

When I read the P critera, I look for the similiarities. There are to many to ignore. I wish it weren't true. I wish he was who I once thought he was. I want him to be. But, I would be kidding myself if I ignored all the evidence.

I just finished a very good book called "Why is it Always About You" by Sandy Hosphkiss. I think you would find it very informative. It is about dealing with the narcissists in your life. What I have discovered is P#2 is that personality type. That book REALLY brought it home to me. I thought of you when I read the chapter on business. It really mirrored my experience with P#2 as well.

For me, now at this point, whatever he is. . .it has not been good for me. It has almost destroyed my life in every way. I am looking for truth and freedom from the turmoil and emotional roller coaster I have been on for years. Here, on this forum, I have finally found some information that makes sense of the behavior I have experienced. If it also makes the picture clear for you. . .perhaps that is your answer.

It's hard giving up that dream, that friendship all the wonderful things you thought you had. It has been the very hardest part for me for sure!

Stay with it betterway. You are on the right track. I know you are. . .
finished

Trauma Bonding.

Our brains seem to be set up for it. I had a customer come in the store a few years ago. She was with a friend. The girl was in her mid twenties. She asked me if I had any funky step ladders for sale. Her friend laughed and said what do you want another step ladder for, you already have 9 of them. Now people collect all kinds of weird things, so I asked her about them. She told me she lived in an apartment and she just loves step ladders, and yes she has 9 of them. Now remember I had been doing mega reading in psychology. I asked her what it was about step ladders that she loved so much. She said she had no idea, that she just loved step ladders.I pressed her further. I asked her if she had any type of memory connected with step ladders. She said the ONLY thing she could think of was that when she was 15 her best friends Dad, who she was really close with, had fallen from a step ladder and died.

I was at a garage sale, a couple of years ago. In a glass case were about 7 preserved large insects. I asked how much it was and then inquired about how they got them and where. Turns out, the insects were from South America. The family had lived there at one time. The son, about 14, came over and started telling me they were his. I said are you sure you want to sell them, they're pretty cool. He said yes, I'm sure. His mother and he then proceded to tell me about one of the flying insects in the case. It had become entangled in his hair, when he was 7, when they lived in South America. It was huge. He had been terrified by the experience, but decided he wanted to keep it. He collected all the other insects after this incident. I asked one more time if he was sure he wanted to sell them. He said, "Yes, I'm ready to let them go."


Betrayed.

hi finished,

>>I just finished a very good book called "Why is it Always About You" by Sandy Hosphkiss. I think you would find it very informative. It is about dealing with the narcissists in your life. What I have discovered is P#2 is that personality type. That book REALLY brought it home to me. I thought of you when I read the chapter on business. It really mirrored my experience with P#2 as well. <<

I tried to get that book at the library yesterday, it was checked out. So I checked out "Stalking the Soul" by Marie-France Hirigoyen. Have you read it? I stayed up way too late last night reading it. Described me and the P. way to much for comfort. I am seeing my counselor today, im sure this book will be the topic of discussion.

>>P#2 called me Monday late afternoon. Wednesday, before Thanksgiving he had called (about business) then the conversation turned to what I was doing over the holiday. Then. . .he said we will have to get together when you get back. I, like you, usually take his calls or at least call him back. I didn't and haven't. But I feel the tension. I know he is expecting me to. The final breakoff has not happened yet as I have this business thing hanging out there. . .and some days I'm tempted to just walk away from it. I'm where you are. He hardly calls, if I miss, I have called him back. I'm carefully thinking about how to end it. In my mind it's over but I haven't yet figured out how I'll put it to him. I keep as much distance as possible and go out of my way not to run into him.<<

"Stalking the soul" explains the phase that we both seem to be in right now. It talks about in this phase, even though we have withdrawn, the abuser will continue, with a daily call, weekly contact, etc. Very insightful. Talks about our need to hang on to the abuser.

The next phase the book talked about was, i think, the breaking open the vicious cycle, and how opening that cycle may make us seem the aggressor, but says me must maake this choice because itt's the only way for change to occur.

The book really put a scare in me. I am scared of how the P. will react when I do make a final break. I have a feeling that he could be alot sicker than I have already witnessed. I fear for my safety and others around me. That may be a result of reading what "can" happen. Physical Violence never seen that in him, but who knows.

Yesterday I posted that I was scared about recognizing that I am also playing the game, using inuendos, and language to manipulate. This was also explained in the book. I can't remember exactly what it said, but something about the abuser feels better when we do his evil also.

This book gave me alot to think about. I think I will give myself a thinking break today, and try to have a little fun. Remember what fun is? LOL For me fun these day is just a break from the obsession and worry that engulfs me way to much. I love to spend time with my very energetic puppy (actually he is 6 yrs old). He is a great stress reliever.

Take care everybody.
Betterway

Neverthesame

>>Until I came under the spell of a very articulate intelligent stupid conning Psychopath who knew how to use words well and how not to get caught, I was a relatively self confident fairly intelligent woman. My reality changed. The friends I have from that time report my behavior as being totally different from my normal demeanor; I acted fearful, submissive and secretive. I was like a whipped dog.

I went to lunch with P#2 and two of my friends one day. Good friends that knew me. They confronted me later and asked what was the matter with me. I was acting fearful, submissive and like a little girl was their comment. Not at all myself. Secretive. . . oh yes! Something very different for me.

>>I lost a good deal of money in leaving my Psychopath.<<

I have used up almost all of my financial reserves. My ability to stay focused had been totally impaired because of the obsession with P#2. Only now, neverthesame am I able to see it. I was brainwashed for years. And in a constant state of bewilderment and shock.

>>I WILL TOLERATE NO MORE ABUSE; PERIOD. My Psychopath antennae are in full operation. I am wary...and strong, but still tenderhearted and able to love.<<

Right now I am in several support groups. I need all the help I can get. Last night was DIVS. By far, that is the hardest one. I left wrung out and emotionally exhausted. I slept restlessly last night. Talk about a reality check. I had been taught to protect and love my tormenters. Now I am beginning to see why it has always been hard for me to make the break with anyone who abused me. I was taught they and thier feeling were more important than mine. They had their reasons for doing what they did. The message was always "you don't have it so bad", others have it worse. Think about others before yourself. That has been ingrained in me. Others have their side of it and it will ALSO would explain the reason I was abused. I brought the abuse on myself. Does any of that make sense?

I also see more and more the importance of NO CONTACT - NO RESPONSE. Any kind of hook they can keep into you is their connection. I'm beginning to care less and less about the deal I have out there.


>>I was not myself for a very long time. Indeed, I will never be the same. I have a scar, mostly healed, that I will carry for the rest of my life. This is not a normal recovery from just an abusive situation. Brianwashing has many repercussions. I was a basket case. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is not a fun experience.<<

Today (after DIVS Group) I feel battered and shaky. I know I'm making progress, but recovery is going to come one day at a time. No, neverthesame, I am discovering that this is not a normal recovery from just an abusive situation. I also was a basket case for almost six years. This experience with P#2 about did me in.

I'm so glad to have you all here. Those who are on the other side of it and those who are going through it. To know you understand like no others can. And at last, now I know what I'm dealing with. It was that unknown factor that was making me crazy.

>>Please, understand, you can lose your soul. I know the pain of losing the "Great Love" and leaving the Psychopath. It is a small price for sanity, safety, and holding onto the soul and heart of who we are.<<

This is the absolute truth. Pain is the key word there. Constant pain. The positive is I know I can heal. For me this has been like having a disease for a very long time and being tested for every possible cause. No one could give me a reason for my symptoms. Then one day I discovered the "cause" of the disease. Now, I have to "take the cure" so to speak. Every day I had been fighting to keep a shred of myself. If I did not have a strong spirtual base I would have gone over the edge long ago. Today. . .I'm fighting to reclaim myself. I, the real me got lost for a very long time.

Thank you so much Neverthesame for your post. It really helped me.
finished

Hi Betterway!

>>So I checked out "Stalking the Soul" by Marie-France Hirigoyen. Have you read it? I stayed up way too late last night reading it. Described me and the P. way to much for comfort. I am seeing my counselor today, im sure this book will be the topic of discussion. <<

Yes!!!! It was the second book I read. First one was the Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans.

One of the things I found interesting was in chapter three. It describes the process

That the emotionally abusive relationship goes through two phases: (1) idenity erosion, and (2) open violence.

The first phase has been termed brainwashing and can take place over several years. According to the book it builds progressively through a seduction process at the beginning of a relationship. The victim is destabilized and gradually loses self-confidence during this initial phase.

The seductive process consists not only in overpoweringly winning over the person, but also in corrupting and suborning him/her. The minipulator bypasses reality, operating secretly and by surprise. He attacks underhandedly, gaing the admiration of another person, who is dazzled by him and sends back to him a positive image. Because it is a narcissistic seduction, the abuser seeks to find in another person a favorable self-image and a facination with his persona WITHOUT ALLOWING HIMSELF TO BE TAKEN IN.

The book further explains that this is single-minded seduction wards off reality and manipulates appearances. It is not positive energy, but a MALEVOLENT process, almost like a ritual. Narcissistic seduction confuses and erodes the boundaries of one's own identity, and that of another individual. It then goes on to explain the objective is to destroy. The other's presense is considered threatening and not complementary.

It is about destruction. As neverthesame said in her post. It is about us losing our soul. Hard to believe I know it is way beyond my scope of thinking and awareness. That is why for me (and I hate learning about this, it is vile and disgusting) I continue to educate myself. I have to know going forward these kind of people, ( should we call them that?) really do exist.

Another chapter that helped me was chapter seven. The victim is a victim because he or she has been chosen by the abuser. He or she becomes the scapegoat who is responsible for everything bad. The victim is innocent of a crime for which he or she will pay.

Sadly have found this to be true in my life. Even witnesses to the abuse suspect the victim. It all takes place as if an innocent could not exist. People imagine that the victim either tacitly agrees or is an accomplice, conscious or unconscious to the abuse.

No support for the victim. It was all their (my) fault.

I loved this part.

It says victims today are not sacrificed , but instead of being considered innocent they are considered weak. That if a person has been victimized it was because they were preconditioned to be victimized, either because they were weak or because they had character deficiencies.

Now get this. . .victims are generally chosen for the POSITIVE QUALITIES they have, which the abuser then seeks to appropriate.

So why is the victim chosen? According to the book. . .because she is there. She is only of interest to the seducer when she can be used or seduced. She becomes an object of hate as soon as she tries to work her way free or has nothing left to give.

Not a pretty picture. But, I can tell you from my experience, it is proving true for me.

I'm with you betterway. . .I need a break as well.

An after DVIS last night. . .I'm toast! :-)
finished