I have an adopted child who is now 13 who was placed in my arms by his birth mom when he was 2 days old. I have 6 other adopted children at home, my youngest is 4. This boy has been extremely difficult since toddlerhood, he has been in phsyciatric treatment since he was 6 due to violence to himself and mostly to others. He has been on almost every medication and at one point he was taking 6 at once. None of them made any difference, so he is off all of them. All the counseling he has had hasn't either,in fact, there has been times where he has actually duped the counselor into believing stories. (He will make himself bleed and then say we beat him.) He was diagnosed with Conduct Disorder.

He has some people thinking he is an angel until he decides he doesn't care anymore. Then he can be brutal and threatening even to his teachers. He's been suspended more than once for disrespect. Always, it's their fault for making him mad. It has become so difficult to live a normal family life. He he has his own reality and cannot reason nor does he want to. We started trying to get help through hospitalization, but there doesn't seem to be any help available. We have had to use the juvenile justice system where he has been in detention several times, sometimes a month at a time. He has assaulted his siblings so many times. He constantly aggrevates his sweet autistic brother. He steals all kinds of things, lies (even when he knows we've seen it),damages things everywhere (stabbed the sofa and chairs with kitchen knife on more than one occasion.)He spins conversations until we're crazy! I'm not a yeller, but he makes me want to scream! Everything is someone else's fault, especially if I have to call his probation officer. It's my fault I called, not his behavior. He'll ask me a question and then tell me he's not listening and say terrible things if it's not what he wants to hear.

I feel like my life is surreal, like I live in a world where abuse is normal and I am so glad when he is kind for a few minutes. I have never believed in withholding affection, but I find myself with this wall and cringing when he wants to cuddle. Of course any affection is for his own benefit. But he's my child and I'm the adult and I feel guilty. He is constantly telling me I'm not his mother and he hates me and wants to get out. Even the day of my mother's funeral, he had no compassion. Then he will turn around and baby talk and act like it never happened. When he knows he is going to court, he will suddenly be sweet and say he loves me and he'll never say anything like that again and he didn't mean it and expect me to withhold any bad information. (He can also cry or throw up at the drop of a hat.)

The problem is also that I'm afraid to speak openly in front of my son to the judge because I wouldn't put it past him to kill us in our sleep.I have told the probation officer and the prosecuting attorney, and have pleaded with the judge, but the best they can do is give me some respite for a few days by putting him in detention. I seriously don't believe my other children are safe! And this is their childhood too, they should not have to live this way. I can't afford one of those $3,000 a month residential treatment centers. I don't know what to do. Does something horrible have to happen before there is real help? Thanks for letting me vent.

Hello Exhausted

I can identify with the problem you have and presume you have come to the forum in search for answers and probably the first question you are hoping to address is the condition your son has.

It's rare for parents to come here looking for information so you must have been to many other places and not had much success. Even if you just come to vent we all understand that is often very necessary as a release valve.

On the practical side we can offer you support and show you where to find information to help you deal with the day to day problems as well as long term solutions.

As I'm in the UK and in a different time zone I would like to come back to you later when I have time to respond in full. I could have written your post so I understand exactly what you are going through. In the meantime you may be able to go over my old posts or better still the original one which explains my situation and that I originally came to this forum for the same reasons you have.

Was your son born to a family member as you have had him since he was 2 days old? What was the first thing that alerted you that he had problems? If you know about his parents backgrounds it does help you identify if there have been any 'in utero' issues. Sometimes things like Foetal Alcohol Syndrome or Effect can confuse the problem of getting an accurate diagnosis.

If you could provide a little more detail of the early years and what you have already found out then we can discuss it in more depth later.

Regards
Jan

I know that nothing has really changed, but just reading your replies and knowing you all are out there, I feel I have more stability and strength to make it through today. I have to go to work, I'm an early childhood specialist working on a Native American reservation. My husband and I are caucasian, our children are African American, most of them born addicted. I will give more background this evening. Thank you so much for being here!

Hi exhausted, I know for adults therapy will only make the Psychopath worse. Frankly the system stinks as far as diagnosing these kids. Where in the world do people think adult Psychopath's come from, out of the blue sky? Dr. Hare has a Youth Checklist (for ages beginning at 14) and so does Dr. Frisk, I think I have Dr. Frisk's list in my files if you are interested in looking at it, let me know and I will email it to you.

It must be very hard on your family, I shudder to think of what you must be going through trying to keep all this together while watching this one child who seems to be a curve ball in the family.

I am sure that in a small but painful way you will find that you aren't alone as you read the stories in this section.

Would you mind if we moved your posts to one with a title like Adopted Child?

Can you arrange with the legal system to be able to present to the judge your information and history with this child without him being present?

Di

What is the law in your state that a child can be emancipated(sic) from adult care and make their own decisions?

Dianne, It would be fine to move my posts to one with a new title. Adopted Child is good.
I would be interested in have Dr. Frisk's list emailed to me also.
I think the only way I can get the judge to listen would be to hire an attorney to represent my husband and I. I don't believe a child can be emancipated until they are at least 16 (my son is still 13), and then they have to prove they can make it on their own. There is no way he would be able to function in the real world for very long. He can't maintain any relationships with friends or teachers. They find out he is lazy, he lies, and he will turn on them at any moment

Hai exhausted,
I hope you are doing just a tiny little better now you found this forum..Only knowing their are others who had the same situation and survived it, can help so much in gaining energy again..But that is my experience and I just say it because I hope it will have the same effect on you.

To be really honest..and not trying to be harse but sometimes there are no easy, nice ways to say things..
I think the only way to survive this for you, your husband and you other children is to get this kid out of the house asap...
I know this isn't nice to hear but I think to have read enough of your stories to say this.
It is indeed exhausting, not only to live like this but also finding solutions. Every door seems to close, every possibillity seems to be taken away, even before you can explore it... Trying to make people not only believe what you say but understand it, is an endless road so it seem...

I kicked my son out when he was just 17...He threaten to kill me before that for 6 or 7 yeas....At the time I was very ill and he thought he could nag me to death...This was the moment I knew I had to put and end to it for real for he would have succeeded.
Him being 17 was a luxery at that moment...before he was simply to young to throw him out!
And to be honest... I was thinking of that for many years before..What if he is old enough..? will I take action? And indeed I did...Finally...

I don't know a thing about the laws and possibilities in your country and I hope you will find a way to safe you and your other children.

There are a lot of people here from the USA and maybe they can help with these kind of matters.

Don't forget, every day is a step in the right direction to solve this..So just keep going!
See you soon!!
Segaya

Hello Exhausted

I do feel what Segaya says is an option for your family as a whole. My partner's kid left and went back to his bio mother at 14. Luckily it was his decision as it had got the 'him or me' stage. Not that I expected my partner to send him away, it was me that was going to leave. We were told by a professional person when my partner was feeling guilty that if he stayed with us he would destroy all three of us but if he left two people would survive.

It is so much easier for me to say these things because he wasn't my kid and I never liked him so his leaving was party time for me but my partner took it very hard. He felt guilty, a failure, at fault for producing and inflicting this kid on society and a quitter. He had got past the stage of what people thought of him but everyone apart from his own mother, the kid's gran, were totally supportive. There is not much they can say when the kid is still at home but their reactions after he had gone were enlightening.

This boy must take so much time and attention away from the other children as well as draining you. My aim is to get professionals to listen to us, researchers to get funding to find out what families need when kids cannot be treated and respite care with people fully trained in coping with CD kids.

Something will probably happen before long to take this decision of what to do with boy away from you. In the meantime you need to focus on yourself to be able to keep going and offer the other children more of your attention. Is there anyone who can give you and your husband a break or help with the children. Does your son behave differently if his siblings are not around and has your one to one attention?

I do wish there was something more positive and concrete that I could offer you, I feel so helpless to provide you with any comfort or hope that your son will improve and make your life less traumatic.

I hope you can keep coming here to speak to other people who fully understand your problems.

Regards
Jan

Hello Segaya, Yours was the first reply and was so understanding, I sobbed. I appreciate your words and your presence

Hai hai,
It is not so mucht the children themselfs who need attention or therapy, Agreeing it is psychopathy we already know they only get smarter in what to do and how to do it...We rather don't have attention or therapy, because of that even don't mind( speaking for myself) that professionals don't know what to do with it.. For there is nothing they can do... just as we can't..
The thing that is such a disappointment to me( understatement) is they don't even want to aknowlegde there is a problem most of the time. And when they do want to see there is a problem at least they can help the family. The parents.
They can send someone to suport them, take the kid out even if only for a couple of days a month so the rest of the family can recover a little bit and spend some time in peace, They could think with us about strategies to follow, ideas how to go through a day, listen to us.....many things can be done.
If only.........
Segaya

He is better without the other siblings around. He is jealous of them or just out and out hates them. Sometimes he tries to play with them, but he is too controlling. However, even though he is usually better with just us, he has gone beyond trying to treat us with respect and if he doesn't get his way in everything, he will go off anyway. He needs to be in a home with no other children. He seems to do better one on one with adult men.

I agree with you, I wish there was some kind of service like that to support families like us. If a therapist could really understand what we go through, it would be nice to get help on dealing with the issue of guilt and loss and hopelessness.

It was to be an open adoption, the mother told us that her family didn't know about the baby. She told us that the father was a dealer and had shot a police officer and was in jail. Who knows what to believe. She also said she wasn't drinking or doing drugs. Not sure I believe that either. We heard from her occasionally and then one day the police came to the door and told us that she had died. The next day we received a call from the grandmother she was living with. We were told that she had left a letter that said in case something should happen, she had delivered a child and gave him up for adoption and gave our address and phone.She wanted to know all about the baby and said he had a brother who was causing serious problems at elementary school. I wanted to know why his birth mother died. She said it was a seizure in the middle of the night. I think with a note left behind, it must have been suicide. We started getting letters from a man who claimed to be his birth father, threatening to get a lawyer and take him from us. I think he was trying to extort money from us. But I wrote him a letter explaining that I had letters from the mother that said she wanted no contact with the birth father and why. And the adoption was completely legal and I had no legal reason to have anything to do with him. I can't even be sure he was the father, but recently I wish I could find him and send the boy to him.
There is no respite available because he was voluntarily relinquished in a different state. We have been told that there is no foster home equipt to take him, but even if there was, because it would be at our request and not the state removing him due to abuse, we would have to pay the monthly foster care payments. I have thought about the possibility of an adoption dissolusionment, but that would take attorneys against the state he came from on the other side of the continant. Mostly I've felt like I'm the failure. That I committed to this child for life and I shouldn't give up on him. My husband is very tenderhearted also. But that's the other thing, he is much older than I and his blood pressure is going out of control. I'm worried I'll be left alone and with the boy.
I have tried the ignoring and he just ups the anti. If he doesn't get a rise out of me by knocking over chairs or threatening, then he will actually go and hurt one of the other children knowing I can't ignore that.
We take away priviledges such as going to a friend's house, and he will tell his friends' family that we are abusive parents to get their sympathy and that we hate them and are racist against whatever race they are. When we remove his belongings such as TV or video game machine, he goes into explosive rages where he puts holes in walls and doors, pushes children around or even punches them, my 4 year old is terrified of him, and kicks dogs.
We can't physically restrain him anymore and he will cry child abuse if we use any physical punishment. Of course he likes to do that anyway, if I reach over to lightly pat him to get his attention to ask him to quiet down in church, he will say loudly, "Don't hit me." Stuff like that.
The irony is, he is constantly telling us and others that we treat him differently than the other children. He doesn't see that he treats us different than his siblings. They do their chores and respect our rules and don't go off on tyrades.
The detention I talk about is through the juvenile justice system here. It is a temporary kiddy jail for kids who need a wake up call for petty offenses and truancy. If they have room, they lock them up for a few days. He has a probabion officer who is overloaded with kids and my son is very submissive and charming to him and to the judge. So until he does a serious crime, we have these little court dates (take time off work,and go through my son's pleas and rages,) where I have to stand in front of a large number of people for my 30 seconds and try to explain to the judge, (and be careful I'm standing in the write place and don't speak out of turn or I'll be humiliated,) that I am terrifiied and helpless. Most of the time, he is just told to be good and come back the next week. If I've said too much, I will hear about it and possibly have reprocussions. He has learned to keep what he does just under what we could call the police about.

Hi Jan. My son was adopted through birth mother choice with an adoption agency. I first started noticing a difference in behavior when he was a toddler. He would be unconsolable for long periods of time when there was nothing wrong. Then he would suddenly snap out of it and be happy and cute and funny, making faces etc. I already thought I was going crazy then. He was my 6th child, so it's not like I hadn't had any experience with babies. When he got into preschool, the teachers would say he was an angel all day and then as soon as he would get off the bus, he wouldn't even make in the house before he would drop in the drive and start raging. It could be 2 hours before he was done. As he got bigger,(like 6, his rages became violent. That's when he started seeing a pediatric psychiatrist. He would push his little sister down the stairs if she was in his way. He actually beat up his older sister who was babysitting. He would throw things and put holes in the walls, he would take knives and cut anything in site, took a shovel and bashed out the van window, burned the legs of dolls on the stove, started fires on the floor of his bedroom, he had a compulsion to break glass like light bulbs and jars,painted his feces on the wall (he still does this behavior at 13). I could go on and on. I used to be able to wrap myself around him and restrain him while he had these rages so he wouldn't hurt himself and others. He would spit at anyone who came into range and threaten horrible things like, "when I get a chance I'm going to throw the baby out the upstairs window or Daddy and I are going to leave you." I would be exhausted by the end of the day when my husband came home. My son would be a sweet baby talking child to him. It was years before I could convince my husband that things were as bad as they were. Now, he doesn't care who sees him at his worst because they deserve to be treated that way because "they made him mad." He's mad nearly all the time. He can have people believing he's the nicest young man and counselors even wondering what's wrong with us. That's why we are tired of going to counselors, they don't make any difference. They tell him, "Just go to your room when you start feeling angry or take a time out." But that's not something he wants to do, he wants to continue engaging and torturing us. Or they want to come take him out for icecream and shoot some hoops and think they've made some huge difference. I've had family counselors come out to our home and ask my children if there is alot of yelling going on. Duh. There isn't any when he is in detention, it's peaceful. I had one therapist say his theory is to put down the child's family so he will be defensive of them and see the error of his ways....... The courts think he should still be in counseling, (we owe thousands of dollars for nothing.) He's been on depakote, resperdol, abilify, clonidine, zoloft, etc. At one point he was taking all of them. No difference whatsoever. Except melatonin at night. At least he has a diagnosis from one pediatric psychiatrist last year. Conduct Disorder, which from my research doesn't leave much hope. Can't believe I wrote this much, but I've only just begun. Thanks for listening.

Hi Exhausted

No wonder you chose that name! I really feel for you. I thought my story was bad but yours is far worse and it’s not surprising that you are exhausted. At least we could pack my partner’s kid off to his doting grandmother. Do you get any respite care for your son? You mentioned detention and I presume you mean legal detention that doesn’t have special treatment for CD children?

Having a diagnosis of Conduct Disorder can’t be any consolation as it doesn’t offer any solutions so I suppose the only way you can get help is to have him removed permanently into legal custody. It sounds like you have tried going down every route without success.

Do you know anything about the birth parents, the mother in particular? Although I don’t suppose knowing if there was anything in their background to cause any in utero damage makes any difference now you have a diagnosis.
I do know of another parent who had a child with exactly the same set of symptoms especially the rages and they tried ignoring as much as they possibly could so the child had less to rage against but having other younger children it must have been difficult to have one set of rules for him and another for the other children. He eventually went to live with his grandmother where he was the only child.

I fully understand that you felt like the crazy one especially when you are so experienced with children, these kids have a great way of fooling the audience.
What strange advice telling a CD child their family is at fault! That person shouldn’t be practicing any form of therapy if they come up with such BS. I found the counsellor we had just as useless, he told my partner it was his fault his kid had problems because he didn’t pay him enough attention! I don’t think I have come across a single professional who has lived with a CD person let alone a psychopath so they haven’t a clue what the reality is like. Granted they may have met plenty in their line of work but the nature of the beast is to lie and charm. They won’t see the sneer on the face of the patient when he/she fools them.

It’s all well and good the court telling you he should still be in counselling but what would that achieve apart from honing his skills? I don’t suppose there is any financial help for that anyway? From what I understand the child has to have a diagnosis of something that can be ‘cured’ for that to happen through insurance.

As you have tried every avenue it seems the only thing you can now do is look after yourself and the other members of the family. This boy needs to be somewhere safe ….safe for everyone.
I don’t know how the system works in the US and whether a child can be taken into care for this sort of problem. I suppose the only alternative is to wait until he does something and taken into permanent custody.
We had got the point that was what we expected to happen but fortunately my partner’s kid decided to go back to his birth mother as he had exhausted us mentally and financially. It has been bliss since he went and he obviously doesn’t miss his father as he hasn’t phoned once since the day he left.

It was hard for my partner and it took him a long time before he could come to terms with the whole thing but so easy for me as I couldn’t bear to be in the same room as the kid. It must be hard for you to give up on any affection you have for your son. It’s not a normal experience and something your son won’t be troubled with. You will have the consolation of knowing that wherever he ends up he won’t feel sad for anyone but himself.

I wish I could say positive, inspiring things to you to make you feel better but I can sense the hopelessness.

It helped me hugely to be able to come here to the forum and vent so please feel free to say what you need to, we will be here listening even if we can’t offer constructive advice.

I think Di’s information will be good to follow up on.

Regards
Jan

Hello Exhausted,

Don't worry we are here... Day, night and indeed after work!
I remember the time I first came to this forum.. It became my lifeline..Like with a lot of us.. People around the world come here to be heared or share there feelings and thoughts. Many of them leave again and many of us stay and try to help others to survive...
You will get to know us more, like we will get to know you... And the more we know the better advise we can give. We will probably ask you a lot of questions. This is not to make you uncomfortable or anything like that, it is so we get the most clear information in order to see what we can do..Maybe it can help us think back to the time we were in the same position.
My son is now 27 years of age and is not living with me now for almost 10 years..The best 10 years of my live I may add..Like Jan, I have seen it all, been there and hope we can tell something that can be of help for you.
Just take your time and maybe this can be a place for you to relax a bit?
See you soon
Segaya

I am copying all my correspondences to this thread so I can keep track of them, sorry if they aren't in order. Thank you all.

Hi Exhausted, the forum has plenty of space so go at it. Many times putting things in writing with a group like us can help see things more clearly and get the support you obviously need. It is quite common that the father sees the different side at least for awhile.

Not to be scary but I saw a TV show where the father thought the mother and adopted son needed bonding time so he took off the weekend to go golfing. The kid was a monster and into self mutilation and killed himself with his actions, the courts and jury didn't understand how a kid could do this and the woman spent several years in prison for murdering the kid who in reality had killed himself.

I know one couple very well, their son was a suspected Psychopath and when they took custody of his kids who were both diagnosed with RAD. During one of the court appearances they were blind sighted by both of the kids and accused the foster parents of sexual, mental abuse etc. I can vouch from knowing them for years, they were very caring people and in no way would do such things. These kids are crafty unless you get a step ahead of them which is an impossible task. When it came to the hearing the kids were removed obviously because the court appointed evaluator believe the tales these kids cooked up.

I would let your son call 911 and not try to reason him out of it. You are not giving him what he thinks he deserves and enough calls of false accusations I would suspect the state would take over. I know this is a terrible situation but one that may work.

If it were me and certainly I am not in your shoes, I would call the police everytime your son did something like bash out a window etc. Hopefully eventually they will get him into the system, you may take the hit for his lies but if they take him off your hands I could live with false accusations.

He sounds very, very dangerous. The impact on your other children can only be negative.

Since he is a repeat offender and if the cops are called each time he does something negative he would more than likely go into the system.

As far as seizures for the birth mother, they can be a variety of issues, drugs, too much alcohol etc.

Have you been able to stay in touch with the grandparents? Maybe they might start thinking you are lousy parents (which you are not) and want to help him get away from you?


Di

I am not sure why replies to you are showing your name as the author and will ask our computer expert to explore the situation.

computer expert!!!!!! - lol - I'm just posting this to test

Well, I just came home from the hospital where I took my husband this morning for having all the symptoms of a heart attack. His blood pressure was through the roof even though he has been on medication for it. He's actually a very active and heathy man for his age. They have stablized him but kept him there for tests. I needed to come home for the night to be with the kids. Got a call that my son was punching 2 of his siblings over a remote control.

I have a son-in-law from Western Samoa who has offered to send him there to be with his Samoan family. Not sure how long he would survive there.

I believe the grandmother has past away now, but I don't have the information anymore. I've been trying to do a people search to find the guy who claimed he was the birth father, but with no success.

I'll take the blame for the posting problems. :0)

He's in custody tonight. I called 911 because he was out of control punching doors and yelling vulgar stuff at everyone and threatening to hurt us. I told them my husband is in the hospital tonight and it isn't safe. The problem is, there may not be bedspace for him......I'm waiting to hear. Also, because I live on a reservation and I'm not native, they have to send a county sherriff out and that's a hastle. But right now, he's being held by tribal police at least. If they bring him back tonight, it might be even worse. Talk about drama, I'm so tired.

Hi Exhausted

It seems that my last comment that something would happen to take the decision to remove your son from your home out of your hands has occurred. Not the way anyone would wish though! How is your husband? Did anything happen to induce the ‘attack’ which I hope wasn’t a heart attack?

It does sound as though everything he does needs to be reported to the police, sherriff and social services if they are the organisation that steps in to help families in difficulties. Some of his actions must fall under the definition of illegal. If he was in juvenile detention then it would give you a little time to find a permanent solution for him. It is obvious he can no longer live with you and the other children, he is putting their lives in danger. One of his rages might get totally out of control and ‘accidents’ could happen,

From what you say I presume you have decided that your family can no longer live like this and I for one would fully support that decision and I’m sure many others here would too.
This boy has the freedom to make choices and if those choices destroy those around him then there is no other option but to remove him to somewhere less damage will be done. Rather than look at this from the negative side look at the positive and the wellbeing of the rest of the family. If one of the children got hurt because of him it would destroy you. You say you don’t know how long he would survive with his Samoan family but again that is his choice. He is not going to miss you or his siblings and if he doesn’t (which he won’t) try to make the most of a new opportunity with his family then that is not your fault. You could spend the rest of your life shielding everyone else from him but his other family may be in a better position to watch him closely.

Your husband will need a peaceful atmosphere at home to recover too.

I hope you managed to get some sleep.

Regards
Jan

Hello Jan, They did decide to keep him last night and will have a hearing this morning to decide if they will keep him longer. As far as sleep goes, he managed to convince the guard there to let him call me at 3:30 am and asked, "Oh, were you sleeping?" (I had been in a deep sleep finally.) Wanted me to bring him fresh clothes for when he gets out.
When he was put in the police car last night, he was crying and calling, "Mommy, noooo, don't let them take me away." I have put up such a wall now that it didn't affect me at all. I told the officer that it's part of his condition to act dramatic and that he tells me I'm not his mother all the time.
They won't keep him more than 30 days unless he commits a more serious crime such as murder, rape, armed robbery. I worry about him being locked up with more experienced criminals and learning their ways. I have tried to get help from social services before. I have to find somewhere for him to go by myself. If I sent him to Samoa, he would need a passport and permission from the courts to leave the country. They don't speak english, so that would be a huge obstacle. I don't know how the schools would work there either. Need to do some research.
You are right though, I think the hardest part of this whole thing is coming to terms with the fact that he doesn't really care and any any love he appeared to show was a ploy to benefit himself. I can't relate to that. But then I guess it's a good thing I can't relate, because then I would be like him.

Hi Shattered,

I wouldn't worry if they don't speak the same language, my feelings are that he will act like an angel with them at least in the beginning and feel like he has won. He has probably gotten or bled out of you what he wants and my guess is he would be glad to prove what a lousy mother you are in his eyes to find some new victims. I would focus on how to get him packed and out of your life. Your husband is a prime example with is health, people can only handle so much. I am sure you will enjoy the peace and safety more than the kid leaving. I would focus on an exit route and not worry about the schools etc.

Why on earth does your brother in law want to take him in?

You might inform the authorities that with 5 other children at home you cannot and will not accept calls during the middle of the night unless it is an authority and there is a sever problem, like he fell down the steps etc.

Please keep calling the authorites for absolutely everything he does. Get a recording device or better yet set up nanny cams in your home so you can document his behaviour.

Di

The judge placed a $5000 bail on him and the arraignment is tomorrow. Last night the county sheriff came out and interviewed my 2 children he had punched. My autistic child did a wonderful job telling his story. He has difficulties communicating and sometimes won't speak to people he doesn't know because he doesn't trust they'll listen long enough to hear him. Before the sheriff had a change to ask any questions, my 4 year old climbed up beside him and said, "_______ is mean to _____ and me." The sheriff wrote that down. One thing that I didn't expect, he went around and took photos of all the damage he had done to our home. Holes in walls, (every door has multiple holes on both sides and some hang on hinges from being slammed so hard), and stabs in furniture. I knew I would think of more once he left, like the chopped up countertop, and the beautiful tree he took a hatchet to. The sheriff asked me privately as he was leaving, what my options were for him to live somewhere else. I told him the delimna we have with children like this and that there really are no options.
I have been told by his probation officer that he should be spending far more time in detension than he has in the past due to the new assault charges. We'll see.
My husband came home from the hospital. It wasn't a heart attack thank goodness. Just a scary episode of high blood pressure.
The warden at the detension center, who knows us by now asked how he was and joked, "I can't imagine him having hypertension with _______ living there." He said to have peace about it, they know where he is every second of the day and he's safe in their care.
It's crazy that I can have been terrorized by the boy but still am heart broken because I love him. I have learned from abusive marriages that you can hate someone and love and miss them at the same time. Of course, if he were a husband, I'd have left him a long time ago.
Anyway, it's wonderfully peaceful here for now.

Hi Exhausted, what a relief that people are listening to you. With the kind of support you are getting from the police etc. things should be although hearbreaking but bring some well deserved peace.

You might want to take the additional pictures that were missed and send them to the officer who took the photos with approximate dates etc. This way it adds to the file all the destruction.

Di

Really glad to hear your husband home and is okay.

Hello Exhausted

That is good news about your husband. It will probably help your cause if having your son around can cause so much stress for him. It must have been obvious to the sheriff that your other children are in danger when he is near them. He will not want to ignore the possibility of something serious happening when it could be prevented.

It seems everything has come to a head and any decisions will be taken out of your hands.

Enjoy the peace.

Regards
Jan

Hi Exhausted,
How I know that feeling!!
I was completely down after I kicked my son out.... But after a week or 2 I was driving home and found myself with a huge smile on my face. Stopped right there and thought about why???? I didn't understand for there was no reasaon to smile...
I searched myself and found I was so happy to go to my house and there would be nothing to fear; Nothing would be broken, no one would threaten me...nothing...just peace and quite...
Untill this day i never have the radio on ( I don't even have one) I love my peace and silence....can you remember peace and silence???
Can you remember coming home without the fear...?

Another part is the question of love.... It was a huge struggle for me to look at that aspect of the whole hell i had been through....
did I love my son?? Do I love my son..??
Yes I did... and this in passed sence....
My son and me were close the first couple of years, or so I believed..(looking back I see different things, and know more of the signs..)But after that?
I found I loved my son for who he was those years but now?
Still in my mind there are 2 sons...( it's only one but this is how it feels) I miss the son I gave birth to, I miss the son I thought he was the first couple of years and that son I love...And that part of me is still hurting. But the person he is now... I don't think I can love some who's only goal is to hurt people, he is a real psychopath in everything he does, every move he makes and every action he takes....I just don't..
Isn't that a terrible thing to say? I am his mother, but that is only biologically... The rest of it...
The pain I feel as a mother..it is for that little boy I once had...

You probably already know...love isn't enough to raise a child.. Dear , we need so much more from them;..Loyalty, trust, forgiveness, interacting, understanding, etc etc etc.and it isn't there..
when you think about all treats that are needed to raise a child and you keep it next to the checlist you will see there is no way you will succeed..
Simply think of food...
When there is food in the house but someone likes to eat bread with marmelade, but there is just enough left for one slice..you can ask the others to leave it for that person.And they will.. but what does it take to have that will?
It takes loyalty with that particular person, it takes a concious to not do it anyway, it takes honesty, it takes empathy, and it takes caring about someone else...
A psychopath will not listen and take it anyway for they just lack all those things.....
These are needed all for being able to raise a child..It isn't there..so they will never learn..that is the curse of people who have to live with a psychopath.

I wish there will be a solution now...There is hope again I think...Just wait and see, don't get your hopes up too much but just work as much with the pilice now as you can..Save yourself and your family..and yes I know how difficult that is and it will give you pain to let go..but really..it is better!
Love Segaya

I've been in court today. This was just an arraignment where they put in a plea and assign an attorney. While they were getting him, the probation officer, asked me, "would you like to bring him home until the hearing?"
I gave him an incredulous look, (couldn't help it), and asked, "Is that
really an option?" He replied, "Well if they were to give you that
option...?" I just shook my head no. The judge kept him anyway. She
almost didn't because he had written a letter of appology. What is the
matter with these people?! I wonder if he murdered someone, if they
would give him a month or two and send him back home! I told the
attorney afterwards that he needs to live somewhere else. I was
shaking. He said he would check into it, and to go home and relax for
awhile.

I am so sorry for your situation, all of this must be terribly draining and doing the right thing in getting him out of your household can only bring peace and happiness once the shock is over for your entire family.

Does he have a key to the house?

Did someone encourge or ask him to write a letter of apology?

It must be a really hard decision but it doesn't appear that you have any choice, with this type of behavior it would only escalate and make it dangerous for the entire family.

All my best wishes and thoughts coming your way.

I don't want to make you feel like I am nagging in any way but would you consider calling the officer who took the pictures if he could come take some more. This keeps the chain of evidence intact which I thought about after suggesting you take the pictures. Keeping the officer in your court would be very helpful even if it a quick phone call on occassion to keep him updated on the situation as it unfolds.

Di

This has been a very peaceful week. Have been able to attend girl's camp with my daughter without worrying about someone getting hurt at home. My husband has gone to visit my son in detention twice and has asked if I want to go today. I just don't feel up to it. He has been put on the lowest level of security because of good behavior. Doesn't that show that he can control himself if he chooses? Court is Thursday.

Hello Exhausted

You deserve some peace and to be able to spend more time with your daughter, I hope you can enjoy it and not have negative thoughts creeping in.
Is your husband well enough to be visiting the boy? I fully understand why you don't want to see him because he will put on an act and it's so difficult to exchange feelings when you know it's not genuine interchange. Being drawn in to someone else's farce puts you in the position of playing along with the game but if you don't you then you are judged and blamed for the boy being like he is.

Is the low level of security because he doesn't appear to show suicidal tendencies or there is no fear he will abscond? Maybe it is just he gets allowed more things.

I know what you mean about these kids being able to control themselves....we had Mr Cutie fooling everyone and I looked like the wicked stepmother. I dread to think what could have happened if we had been in front of a legal team for whatever reason. Kids are judged by their appearance and projection plays a part too so a lot of evidence is needed to present your case objectively.

Is there any chance that he will tell the court he doesn't want to come back to the family home? I get the feeling you have no desire to have him home again and that must be tugging at all your emotions and how you feel about yourself. I certainly wondered what sort of person I was to have so much hate for a 'child' to the point I would be happy if he dropped off the planet! I really didn't care where Mr C went as long as it was far away from me. I have never once felt bad about it either. I have to say that some of the terrible things he did have faded from my mind a little as I have left the past behind me to a great extent.

I hope it goes well for you on Thursday and hopefully you can educate a few people at the same time.

Regards
Jan

I'm on a training trip for my job this week, but when I get back home, he should be there again. We have had a hearing every week for the last 30 days and now they want to send him home to start school. My husband has been going and visiting and attending the hearings which in the past was my job. I just haven't been able to emotionally do it this time. The court wants him back in counselling. They have been threatening him to send him off for a year if he gets into any more trouble. I don't believe them, they think it will scare him into being good. It's only a matter of time. The question is who is going to get hurt?

Hello Exhausted

These hearings must be so difficult for you and especially your husband, I hope he is feeling well enough to cope.
From what you say it sounds like the courts haven't a clue what they are dealing with. Counselling is going to make matters worse as the boy learns what people want him to do and it gives him information to work with. They will not realise these kids don't suffer any anxiety and nothing scares them, they are punishment insensitive. No threat is going to make the slightest difference. They live for the moment.

My partner and I had the same thoughts, that his kid would have to hurt someone before any authority would take him. We were like prison officers on 24 hour duty to know what the kid was doing every moment. It wears you down and there is no-one to take over your shift.
I only hoped that the person who was the victim of his kid didn't suffer any physical harm and any loss they had was repairable but he left before that happened but who knows what he is doing now as all contact ended.

I even wondered whether it was a possibility to set the kid up so we could report him to the police and get the ball rolling to get a professional assessment and maybe some help or better still have him put in a secure institution. That is how desperate I felt!

I do feel for you as it brings back the emotions I had when this kid was with us and with hindsight there was nothing we could do to alter his future, he was destined to go his own way and no amount of beating ourselves up would change that.

It may be your only option to give him enough rope so he can do the inevitable. I wish there was something positive I could say to give you some hope that things will improve. All we can do is be here to offer words of encouragement and listen when you need to sound off. I hope getting attention and awareness to your situation might bring about some improvements in the system where you are. The authority figures dealing with your case must at some point see that they don't know what they are doing and seek information when the boy repeats his offending behaviour.

Regards
Jan

Hi E and Jan,

That is one thing that is always lingering in my mind, where on earth do people think Psychopaths come from? Everyone has to be a kid to become an adult. Since the conscience forms between 3 and 5 years old does the world think that one day they wake up and turn into Ted Bundy? We have made vast improvements in information since the years Bundy was around but when it comes to kids yet it seems we are lost in desert dust.

I have never bought the line that a bad childhood or lack of bonding created these kids, it is in their brain forming the lack of a conscience. The only thing good bonding will do is turn them into white collar criminals and the ones not raised properly we all pay for their prison cells.

Why can't anyone see it is the kid not the parent who is the problem?

D

I was hoping when we brought him home from detention the end of last month, that he might break his record of being good for 5 days. We were into the 6th day when he finally blew up. Since then, he has been unendingly verbally abusing all of us, but mostly myself. Can't even get him to leave my room when I have begged him to give me a break. I called and left messages on his probation officer's phone, the school called and left messages also saying he was escalating. He was even yelling, "I hate you" to me down the halls there. I work at the school also. He was kicked out of several of his classes and was caught stealing candy from one of the teacher's rooms. He was also accused of threatening a girl in his class that he was going to take a knife and slit her throat. Because it couldn't be proven, charges were dropped. My husband has his hands tied and can only direct him away from whoever he is verbally attacking. Once last week when my husband wouldn't let him passed him down the hall to get to me, B actually punched him in the chin and neck (left a red mark.) My husband pushed him away and B tripped and fell backwards. B of course yelled at him and threatened to turn him in for child abuse so HE would go to jail. He tells him all the time, ever since my husband went to the hospital, "I hope you have a heart attack and die!" A couple of nights ago, he stopped yelling and calmly stated that he was getting angry enough that he was going to start hurting his dad, that he was going to "get back" at him. (Crazy thing is, my husband is the one who visits him and that he calls to talk to and tell him he loves him when he is in detention.)
Yesterday, he had a court review. Because of the phone messages from myself and the school, the PB requested he have some time in detention again. I think he was just taking pitty on me. Thankfully, it was a new judge who was comprehensive and looked at his long record of assault etc. of his family. Told him he wasn't going to give him a break and kept him for another 30 days. B asked the judge if he might give him another chance, (he can act so sweet and humble), the judge said, "absolutely not." B had been telling me all morning that if I said anything to the judge that was bad, that it was my fault he got put in jail. I try not to be too harsh, but I have to be honest. When he was taken away, he gave me a very deadly accusing look.
In January, the court had ordered a psychological work up. I had brought my crate of history to her and she interviewed us, gave us various tests, reviewed the years of psychological and medical care and criminal history. She was to refer us to Children's hospital for something. I have been asking the court for a copy of the report and recommendations so I could be informed as to what I'm asking for them to test him for. She told us after several phone calls that she couldn't give us any information because it was the court that hired her. So we have been writing letters and making phone calls to the court. In the mean time, not receiving any information about a referal having been made to Children's. Finally, yesterday they gave me my copy of her report. I sat in the parking lot and read it. She wanted him to be an in patient for a biological brain scan to rule out brain damage from fetal alchohol and drugs. And the process was for me to have his regular family docter make the referal, not her or the court. News to me.
Here's the kicker: After reading it through, I got out of my car and went up to the attorney who was leaving for lunch. I asked him if he had read the report. He said no. I asked him if he was aware that the strong recommendation at the end of the report was that he should not be placed back with his family. That he was a danger to himself, his community and his family! Of course he wasn't aware of that either. Not that it will make a difference. He will be coming back to us in 30 days and there's nothing we can do about it.

Oh brother, my heart goes out to you and your husband. Would it be possible to wire yourselves with recorders and install "baby cams" in the house to have it on record how he is behind the scenes? Even wear them to school so if the falling thing happens again you can comment on how he fell and let people hear how it all got started.

I suspect one of these times in detention he will do something bad and hopefully extend his visit. I really recommend cameras and recording devices so others can see this charming kid for the monster he is.

They do know about the brains of Psychopath's, have you had a chance to read about it in the Resource Section. I would try and I know that is easy for me to say but see if you can get some information so they do the right brain scan and point them to the literature?

Does this woman evaluator know anything about Psychopath's? She must know something based on her recommendation?

Who is the attorney, is he a court appointed one to represent the kid?

I am glad to hear the judge was firm in his decision. A thought passed through my mind to see if you can somehow contact the judge and see if he has any contacts or ideas?

No one should have to live in this horrible fear.

Di

I'm looking for that information about the brain scan on resources, but can't locate it. could you tell me what it's titled?

Hi, here is the link, it is in the Resource Sections, if any of the links aren't working since we are a bit behind I can google them and get the cached copy.

Di

Brain Studies

Okay, I am going to look up every recent study I can find, sorry the Resource Section is not updated, Jan and I have our work cut out for us;) If you ever find a topic with a broken link go and click "cached" and it will come up.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:90Cz...n&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=7814961152444556142&hl=en
This article looks interesting but costs $4.95 to view all.

This only comes up in PDF so can't give you a link but google:
Behavioral inhibition deficits in juvenile psychopaths

This is an interesting paper on Psychopath youths, here again it is in PDF so needs to be googled: Understanding the downward extension of psychopathy to youth: Implications for risk

Exhausted, if you need more info please let me know, if you find anyone of interst you might try calling them. I have called people before and they sometimes will speak to you.

Hello Exhausted,
My heart goes out to you....It seems to me people just don't wanttolisten, the system isn't preparedfor a child like this!
How wonderful is it the judge seems to understand. I wonder if he is aware of the whole story?
I thought reading this. When this boy is in there often enough he will get used to it, when getting used to it he will show his true face. So the more time he spends there the better it is?
I know it is a long shot but the frustrating thing is you tried so much already.
It is unbelievable he makes so much trouble, there are so many witnesses and still nothing is done.
Be well..and take care of yourself!
Segaya

Thank you Segaya, He called me last night for the first time since being locked up. He was very sad and humble sounding; telling me how much he misses all of us and he's going to be better when he gets out again. It's a broken record, keeps repeating. I do have a doctor appointment for him next Tuesday so we can get started on the scan referral. I'll have to check him out of detention for half the day. I'll keep plugging away and enjoy the peace of the moment. :0)

And how right you are!
isn't it awful to always be on guard. That is what mostly exhausted me. Even when they are not near you have to be watching. My son use to know I was looking for the good. Once a year ( approxematly) he gave away a nice day and it 'showed' me he was capable of doing well. This gave me hope again and the hope gave me wings so it seems...Yes,, well.. nothing happened for the good so I learned over time not to believe in those days.( him)
I am curious though...How is you enviorment reacting on this. I don't mean the so called professionals, but the neighbours, family, friend?( if there are any left) Do they believe you or do they blindly defend the child?
I learned over the years people always talk about keeping the hope. In my language is a saying; When there is no hope there is no life....
Well, I learned the hard way hope is not good for me..When i kept hoping, I expected things, and when expecting things the disapointment is always there. And I couldn't live with all these disappointments.
I am gald you made the appointment for the scan. At least it is another step you can make and maybe it can make it clearer....well we have to wait and see won't we.
I notice you say; 'He was very sad and humble sounding'...
Now my native language isn't english so maybe I get this wrong..But it seems to me the last part of your sentence is more correct then the first part?
Sounding humble means you see right through it.. but you also said he was very sad....Does this mean you really believe it or is it just a matter of speaking?
Maybe you think this is not important but language and the way we use it is. The way we use words makes clear what is in our minds, even when it is on a level we are not fully aware of.
I admire your strenght and keep my fingers crossed for the outcome of the scan....Let's hope once more!
Segaya

You can refuse to take him back, they have given you all the tools, you just have to know how to use them. In the report it blatantly states that he is a danger to your family and himself. Under those grounds, whoever puts him back in your home is responsible for anything that might happen to all of you, and or, to him.
Like I said, you have the tools, you even have better than I ever had, you have it in writing.
Children's servies CANNOT put other children in danger by placing the child back at home! You have alot to stand on legally, use it, and I am sorry to sound so rash, but do your best to forget that kid ever existed. Mine is 23 and I am still battling the SAME behaviors. I did have him removed from my home at 14 and he has never lived in my home since, under the grounds that he put my other children at risk.
The fact is that they will find room for him somewhere if you force them too.
And don't try and talk yourself into believing he can be fixed, don't let him play you with all his sob stories, and don't ever let your guard down.
I've been through it so many times that suicide threats are a non issue anymore. Oh they know how to play you

Hi HadEnuff,

It must have been a horrible experience for you. I don't have any statistics but I suspect suicide isn't in the deck of cards for Psychopath's only idle threats.

If it wouldn't impose on you too much could you tell us more about what you went through. Posts even read here reach many in the same situation and they can gain strength and relate to your words.

I am sure you probably heard a lot of "how could you" and asked yourself "why me". Your decision was a very wise one, there is nothing positive with having a Psychopath in the house.

Di

Yup, the 'how could you's' were terrible until my son managed to go through the rest of the family and burn hgis bridges. I tried hard to warn them and stop it from happening, but everyone believes "love" is the answer to all life's problems. They always believed he was acting out becuase he was treated unfairly at home. The evidence they used to back up thier idea was me...a tired, burned out and frustrated mom who had dragged her son all over the earth to try and get someone else to see there was a problem, and get it treated. (that, I think was THE most frustrating part of raising this kid. It hurt so badly to feel like all the doctors/neurologists/psychiatrists were judging your parenting skills when they had no idea what life was like at home with this kid)
He was constantly doing things to blame on the younger two, and he succeeded with most people who didn't have thier eyes open to his games. I wouldn't even send all the kids to thier grandparents at the same time because the oldest one had a game going on over there that totally shattered the younger ones. They were such good kids, and seen as so terrible over there. It got to a point that I would ONLY send the oldest one, whenever I could, to give the rest of us a much needed break.
Everyone said I ws too hard on him, or not consistant enough, or too soft...I got a different answer from every person I met...but none that made any sense.
The best was the day one of his school counsellors finally caught on and sent a book home in his back pack with him. She called me ahead and told me I had to read it. It ws entitled "Kids Who Kill" He was 8 years old at the time. But she had no help to give, and no advice to give. She simply said that he showed his true colors to her one day and she saw it loud and clear.
Yes, it is interesting, heartbreaking, dangerous, and very psychologically damaging to everyone in a household with a psychopath.
As for the "why me?"
It is very simple. I made the mistake of getting involved with a man who had the same traits, and I couldn't see them at the time. I fully believe that it is hereditary

You know, that has always been the question: Can he help himself? If it was something that he couldn't control, then there should be some compassion at least in the placement of him. Maybe a mental institution instead of jail. But it's those days that he does control himself that lets us know that he can. It is almost worse news that this is the case because now he must be held accountable. As far as my language, I do believe he may be sad (most of it I'm sure is acting). He is sad for himself, not for us. He will not ever accept that he has any responsibility for his behavior and their consequenses. His humility and promises are just a way to control us so he can be out of lock-down. He is good in detention and always gets to the highest level of freedom there. He can say the words that sound like he is sorrowful and self blaming, but ultimately he doesn't really believe them. I am totally aware of this. My problem is that I am a normal, loving, compassionate mother who made a commitment at his birth like all my other children. I have been trying for years to find help so I didn't have to just write him off. It breaks MY heart even though it doesn't his. I can't help that. But I have been begging for years for the courts to find another placement anyway, because my other children need to be safe and have peace in our home. It is their childhood too.

At first, when he was a little child, he didn't show his bad side until he was at home. And then it was just to me, not his father. It took a long time for my husband to open his eyes to how a child could be so vindictive and violent. The schools didn't even start seeing it until he was 10-11. This shows how well he was able to control where and when he acted out. Eventually the mental health community all got his number (he was always saying just the right things to his counsellors, so if he is so sweet and calm to them and agrees to their suggestions, then what am I talking about right?) The problem was that he could talk the talk, but he never put it into practice. Years of counselling has not changed him one bit, just gave him more tools to use against us. When mental health and hospitals all failed us, I started calling the police to help when he was being seriously violent. At first they didn't want to take him in because he was so compliant with them when they came. But eventually they handcuffed him and took him overnight hoping it would scare him into behaving. (That's all it takes for most kids.) My "friends" were very critical at first, and talked amongst themselves about how horrible a mother I was to call the police on my child. A couple of them even suggested that he could come live with them. (Of course they didn't really mean it, but it made me feel they were thinking they could do a better job of parenting.) Now though, he shows his true colors wherever he is except court.

I had a visit with the school Superintendent the other day after he threatened a girl at school to get a knife and slash her throat. Her father had come to the school and had made a police report. I told her I hoped the community didn't feel that we were the same way or taught him this behavior. Her response was, "I think most people think you are saints for hanging in there." It has been hard. There has been lots of judgemental people and most likely always will be those who think they could have done better. Most people believe that only an abused child can behave in such a criminal manner. I have three children who graduated Valedictorian and another who has a degree in nuclear physics and serving in the US Navy. My younger children are all drug affected; one is autistic, one has ADHD, one has well-stablized Bi-Polar, but they are all good students, sports stars, some play multiple band instruments. They bicycle and lego engineers and can cook and do their own laundry. We attend church every Sunday, have had one child fulfil a mission and others who plan to go teach the Gospel for 2 years out of their lives when they are old enough. They have goals for college and their future careers. I'm not trying to be boastful, I just want people to understand what kind of home this child is being raised in and how with all our efforts, he is just this way. I am hoping that the world can start to understand that people can just be born predisposed to be a psychopath and no amount of nurturing can prevent it.

Oh exhausted! You sound so much like me and my situation! I had a school principal once tell me, (when I went in there to confess that I was doing everything I could and it woasn't working, and I also told him I didn't even love this child anymore!) And he said "Of the many parents that I meet, you, I can tell you, LOVE this child. He is the primary disfunction in your family, we know that. He sure doesn't come from a disfunctional family!"
That little chat got me through a couple more years with that child, finally someone saw it! But it did nothing to change the child. I have prayed long and hard for healing for him, or for a way to deal with this constant warfare...but God hasn't answered trhat prayer yet, for what reason, I don't understand...but one day I will. And so will you:>)

Hi Exhausted

I have asked myself that very question many times and still come back to the conclusion my partner’s kid could help himself. He could put an act of revenge on hold until the circumstances were right for him to do it. He planned these attacks so had the choice of whether to carry them out and weigh up the consequences of his intended actions. As he lived for the moment he didn’t consider punishment or if he did he didn’t care. Also the gratification of doing something nasty was foremost in his mind.
I have also battled with the dilemma of seeing psychopathy as a mental illness or a lifestyle choice and come down on the side of lifestyle choice because they know what is expected and can perform as they should when it suits their needs. I’m sure most of us have some sort problem that has to be overcome to function well in society even if it’s only to curb an acid tongue when we speak out too readily. Some people have anger management issues and can successfully control their reactions so as not to hurt others. You have experience of Autism and deal with it to help your child function in society, the lack of empathy due to Autism doesn't have the same devastating result as the lack of empathy a psychopath has.

My partner’s kid was only ‘sad’ when he didn’t get what he was demanding, he even cried sometimes but they were tears of anger and frustration and only for himself. To anyone else observing they would have projected the feeling of sadness onto him and of course we get the blame for being mean or cruel parents, always refusing him things. They didn’t see the constant demanding of everything he saw and wanted, he could keep it up for days at a time. A bottomless pit of needs so even if he did get what he wanted he would then start on the next thing so it didn’t really matter what he was ‘agging’ for it would always be something.

As for the apologies and promises of change….I let those wash over me, they were meaningless words. I have also heard words of acceptance of guilt but a quick ‘sorry’ was supposed to make everything right. He may as well have said ‘cup of tea’ for all it meant.

It is our downfall that we are normal parents who commit to raising a child to the best of our ability, we give them love, encouragement, opportunities and experience and we try to lead by example but when you get a kid that doesn’t respond to any of these things how do you deal with it. Do we become someone we are not and do we change our parenting methods? My partner thought the more effort he put in with his kid would eventually flick the light on and he would see how lucky he was to have two people doing so much for him to give him a great life and a future. When you accept that is not going to happen it still doesn’t stop you trying until the situation is taken out of your hands.
We were quite fortunate that we didn’t get much well intentioned intervention from friends but were heavily criticised by the kid’s gran and uncle who were worse that in denial, they fully believed the kid felt rejected by everyone and we were cruel to him.

I recognise all you say about your son not showing his bad side at first. R could be the little charmer when he had an audience and potential rewards. He was sort of OK when it was just him and my partner on their own because he had his father where he wanted him. It was me he waged war with probably because I was never fooled by him so after he tried the charm offensive on me and it didn’t work he really went on the rampage. He still tried the Mr Cutie act with his father, who fell for it as any parent would when they believe their child is genuine. Cupboard love was invented for this kid, quite literally! When he was very young his needs were to get as many goodies as possible and this obsession with getting things progressed to more sophisticated things as he got older.

The school counsellor fell for his act and came to the house to talk to my partner about needing to spend more time with his son as he felt rejected (idea handed to him by his gran). As if that could have been possible! It was the kid trying to use the counsellor to get rid of me, pathetic really.

These kids are punishment insensitive so nothing works or even makes the slightest difference and we found the best thing for us was to send him to his room and leave him there as long as possible. If he thought he had angered us he would smirk with satisfaction.
It became a bizarre way of life for the last year or so he was with us because there was no interaction between him and me, apart form me telling him his meal was on the table. I once stood and watched him from behind eating his meal alone and felt a huge wave of sadness and discomfort at watching him eat on his own. Then I could see he didn’t care, he didn’t feel anything apart from getting his food down with relish. That was one of those moments when I could see I was projecting my feelings onto him. I couldn’t bring myself to let him eat at the same table as us after his table manners went out of the window, I would feel sick watching him so he got fed before we ate. He made the choice to eat like an animal so also had the choice to eat with us or alone as he knew why he no longer ate with us. It was another of those behaviour things that progressed with age.

My partner also had very little interaction with him but it didn’t seem to bother him, he seemed to quite like just being there and irritating (tapping, rhythmically kicking the furniture, making noises, scratching etc etc) but not having to take part unless he was on a mission to get something out of his father. There was very little they could talk about or do together because the kid would sabotage everything from a holiday, a day out, a game of football, a conversation….anything!

I don’t think you are blowing your own trumpet at all, you are telling us about the rewards of good parenting and about the people your children have become under your guidance. It proves that it is your son who causes the problems not your parenting. Many people do not accept that you can’t change psychopathic behaviour any more than you can change the colour of your child’s eyes. They are born with certain features and the personality is the main feature, psychopathy is a personality disorder. I subscribe to the nature not nurture debate although I can see why environment does play a part but only to the extent of the opportunities it provides or denies.

I think it’s good you can say you still have total belief in yourself as parents. It’s hard to get across to people how much you feel you are somehow to blame for your child's life going badly wrong and my partner feels it because his kid is a product of his genes too and what does that say about him? He doesn’t need any criticism from others as he does that for himself although it is not necessary.

He still finds it hard when someone says horrible things about his kid and says ‘that is my kid you are talking about’ even though he knows they are right. That is the kid he wanted and thought he had and the kid they are talking about is the one he got.

We do need to get childhood psychopathy addressed and taken seriously and we have to keep speaking out. It is wonderful that you can share so much with us and it’s only because we are prepared to bring attention to this that we will get recognition. I know there is no cure or treatment and that won’t change unless we go back to how this disorder develops from birth. It’s no good trying to right the problem in an adult.

I keep thinking of you and Hadenuff and hoping you will both get some peace of mind before long.

Regards
Jan

I really appreciate your understanding Jan; and sharing your story helps me feel like I have some ally's. I checked him out of detention on Wednesday to take him to the doctor for his brain scan referral. He was calm and all, but he expressed his belief that there was no reason for him to be in there. I can explain to him that he is on probation and if he has problems at school, won't keep curfew, verbally abuses his family, won't do his chores, etc. he has broken his probation and they need to hold him accountable each time so he will learn to control himself. Of course his response is, "It doesn't help me, just makes me mad."
The doctor made the referral, don't know when yet, but he treated me like I was stupid and he hadn't even read the report from the psychiatrist I had handed him a week ago.I think some people feel that since I chose to adopt, I should just deal with whatever problems my children have. But we don't have control over our own biological children either do we? We take what comes and do our best.

Hi Exhausted,

This trully is an exhausting situation. I have a feeling it is not going to resolve any time soon, and you still have many years ahead of you having to deal with it. Of course, theoretically you do not have to. But I think that is how it is going to be. I found his response "It doesn't help me, just makes me mad" interesting one. I am trying to understand what does he mean. Does he actually understand that he does need help? If those things do not help him as he claims, did you ask him what does he think WILL help him? That is the number one question I would of asked him right away. Does he have ANY suggestions? Also, is there anything, and I mean anything, positive about him? How does he do in school? Did he ever complete any one homework or assignment on time? What is his favorite movie? What his grades are like? What does he want to be when he grows up? Who are his friends in school and outside of school?

I am thanking God he saved me from the horror of having a psychopatic child. I think this is because I am too weak, and he normally doesn't give more than you can handle. But one time in my life I came across a psychopatic boy. He is our neighbors' child and attends the same school my daughter goes to. They are the same age, 12 year olds. One time I even volunteered to babysit him; he was 10 at the time I think. Those two hours were the most draining hours I had ever had in my life, even after 33 years dealing with my mother! He is very hard to explain. I always knew he was "strange". He is very well known across our town (with quite a large population!) as "strange". He caused numerous problems in school, and it was a common subject of conversation at dinner time in almost every household in our town "So, what did Cyle (name changed) do today in school again?" And then the kids would relate to their parents how he called a principal a B word again, or how he brought a knife to school and threaten to kill somebody, or how he got into a fight again, etc. Every day, unless he got detained, he would create some trouble in school. Every one seems to have a general opinion of him that he would end up in prison some day, and now I do too. But before I actually got the experience to babysit him for those two hours, I tended not to take all those "gossips" seriously enough. I thought "Well, he is just a kid, for goodness sake! Kids cannot be evil, unless they are made to. He is probably just misunderstood. It must be his parents' fault for not raising him right. I am sure I will be able to find a common ground with him if needed. I am pretty much non-judgmental, laid-back kind of person. The child just probably needs some love and affection. Etc, etc, etc" I have to say that he was very smart in school, a straight A student. And then my babysitting day had come. His dad called me and asked if I can watch him for few hours; so I agreed. I told my daughter "We are going to babysit Cyle today" and her first words were "Hell no!". And so we went. He was quiet for about first 10 minutes, and then all the hell broke loose. To say that it was like a roller-coaster ride is to say the least!! It is even hard to describe, everything was like in a haze. After playing quiet with his Nintendo for about 10 min and totally ignoring us, he finally threw it aside and wanted to show me his room. There he showed me his numerous inventions: beeming lamps, electric wires, moving mechanics, etc. I was truly astonished because they all looked pretty complex. I praised his intelligence on which he smirked sarcastically "What do you think! I am not like all the rest of you dumb idiots!" Then he went on playing the war game with my daughter. They were running around, he was screaming and yelling, I had to hush them every minute in fear the neighbors would call the cops for all this noise, but he never stopped. He lived in the middle of the apartment building with very thin walls. I tried to interest him with drawings, books, the Nintendo, all to no avail. After getting exhausted with running around and screaming, he would grab his Nintendo to play and we would have a minute or two of peace, and then he would throw it away again and continue running and screaming again. And it was not like a playful sort of scream, kids often scream when play, but his was a scream of total rage! Like rage and anger kind of scream. All that for about an hour, non-stop. After being tired of reasoning him and threatening him with neighbors calling the police, all to no avail, I finally totally lost it and threatened him with a physical violence if he won't shut up and sit still for an hour. He got lost. "Oh, thanks God!" I exclaimed and dropped onto the couch totally worn out. The next second he appeared right in front of me and the next thing I saw was a gun pointed right at me! He started to scream and groan like crazy "I'll shoot you!!!", "I'll shoot you!!!", "I'll shoot you!!!!" What was I supposed to do? I pretended like I am watching the TV and told him to move to the side because he is blocking the view. Seeing that I am not reacting, he disappeared again. Then he appears again, stands in front of me, starts taking his shirt off and says "Do you want to see me naked?" I said "No, thanks. What did you do with the gun?" he told me he hid it and won't tell me where. I figured the gun probably wasn't real or his dad would have hid it away from him. It was about an hour left, and he started to run around the place and screaming like a nut case again playing his war game. I then offered to play a spy game where they would hide and keep quiet until I find and capture them. So I sat under the table, counting to 20 while they were trying to hide. When I went to search for them and I tried to search as long as possible trying to win more quiet momemnts, I saw that they hid in his room and he locked the door! I started to bang on the door and tell him to open it because it is not safe to keep it locked. After few bangings like that I heard my daughter's scream "Cyle is trying to see my underwear!!" I started to kick the door and scream that I found the gun and will shoot the lock off and then him right there. He unlocked the door right away and ran to the other bedroom and locked himself in there. After some time his dad came back. He got out and started to act like a sweet angel and giving me these pleading looks not to snitch on him. I told his dad (which he definitely already heard millions of times about his son) "Cyle is very difficult around people". His dad's response? > "He is only good around those he respects!"

Well, now about two years later, Cyle's behavior seemed to change. Well, there are less incidents of him getting in trouble in school. Now it is almost the end of September, and nothing so far. I don't know, he must be on some kind of meds that seem to work. Also, his dad got re-married, and his new wife has a son who is one year older than Cyle and is a very, very rough boy who grew up in a bad area. Also, he did not grow over the summer at all! He must be twelve now, but still looks like a very, very scrawny 8-year old. This is strange because his parents are pretty well built. And that was my two-hour experience with a kid from hell.

"He is only good around those he respects!"

That is nasty. Dad abused you after you looked after his kid...

Yes, his comment was tottally out of line. And that is after I babysitted his son totally for free! I thought we are neighbors and supposed to help each other out when needed, so I didn't charge him anything. At the time I didn't even react to his comment because I was too much in a shock like state to even comprehend it. But then when thinking back about it, I think he was just in a state of denial and got defensive about his son. He probably just grew tired of it I mean he is a parent and I am sure it was probably hard for him to hear that his son is this or that and is a mental case on the every day basis for years. We all have the need to feel proud of our children, and he probably feels as a total failure as a parent so he got defensive. I don't feel mad at him at all, but very sorry for his situation. I remember one time when all the neighbors were at the community swimming pool, Cyle was there too. He had this plastic bucket with him. And he would draw the water from the pool into the bucket, then spit into it several times, and then throw this water at all of us! And he did that over and over again until his dad finally restrained him. He just doesn't bond with people at all. I have never seen him smile or laugh about anything. Unless it was a rage kind of laugh. I wonder how his new wife survives it all. But I am pretty sure Cyle is on some kind of meds now that work. I think these meds also prevent him from growing, because he didn't grow at all over the summer and even shrunk down in size./ Very sad.

Hello Forest Flower, I would love to find out what kind of meds that might be because psychiatrists have tried so many on my son and none have helped.

I spent a couple of days with my daughter and her husband this weekend. I always enjoy being with them and playing with my grandchildren. We got on the subject of B and the fact that he is in detention at the moment. My son-in-law is like most men (gotta lovem), they want to fix everything. And they usually don't know all the facts or haven't lived through whatever it is they think they have the answer for. For hours I found myself trying to explain to him what I've been through for the last 13 years and everything that we have done to try to help him. He had the same attitude that most people have- that it has to be something that WE did or didn't do because there has to be some way to cure this. It is so common that people think they could do it better; that the child is just misunderstood or hasn't received enough love and attention. Even I have a hard time accepting that there may be no hope in this life for him to be a normal, compassionate person. So I understand, I'm just so tired of defending myself to others. See, I'm already abused daily by the boy, then I often get additional abuse through these types of comments from friends, family, professionals, and even myself because I feel inadequate. I also sometimes feel that when I have to keep explaining why he is in detention again, I am continuing the trauma when I could forget about it for a little while and have a moment of peace.

Hello Exhausted

Oh how I know what you are dealing with.! I could have written those words. What does surprise me is it is your son in law who must have been around when B was growing up who doesn’t see the reality. He must have seen your parenting skills and he must have heard first hand from your daughter how things are and her experiences..
It just shows how little even those close to us see and understand about what is really going on, these are the people who care but what about others who automatically presume there must be a reason a child goes off the rails? I wonder what your SIL would say if you asked him and your daughter to take B for a week? I know you wouldn’t do that because you have grandchildren to consider but he probably truly believes he could make a difference. Maybe he can for a while as B makes the most of the opportunity to con someone, they then think the child has a good side and it just has to be given a chance to appear.
The mistakes people make are thinking a reason can be found to explain these kids’ behaviour and therapy and medication will correct it. Medication may help some symptoms like putting a sticking plaster over a gaping wound but it doesn’t help the underlying condition.
They also believe that by speaking directly with the kid they will open us and speak about their thoughts and explain how they feel but don’t see the kid knows exactly what they want to hear and will fulfill each person’s requirement. It is a great opportunity for the kid to get sympathy, blame the parents and manipulate.

It got to the stage with me that if I heard one more time “all kids do that” I could have swung for the person, the frustration of them not really taking in what you tell them and then making you feel that you are being overbearing. I was seen as the wicked stepmother, partly because the kid fed people that perception but mainly because people expect any kid to resent a step parent. How on earth can people think that in your situation? B has been your child since birth. You have spent years trying to get help for this boy and no-one has been able to offer any…maybe because nothing can be done. Like all people, a person has to want to change and kids like B are not introspective and see that life would be so much better if they slotted in.

The biggest mistake of all it to think the kid will ‘grow out of it’ ….of course some badly behaved kids do but we are not dealing with just a badly behaved kid, we are dealing with Conduct Disorder. Even my partner took many years to accept that not only would the penny not drop but that there was no penny to drop with his kid.

All the time he was in denial, I was battling to get recognition of the kid’s problems. There was no professional help available, no medication apart from something to stop the bed wetting….which made no difference.
Of course I started to think that it was me, if I wasn’t around the kid would be OK. I questioned myself about what sort of person I was to think a kid was psychopathic. I doubted I was seeing what I was seeing, was I imagining things, surely no child could do those things. I wondered whether I was going mad. Most of all I remember the feeling of intense dislike (least emotive word to express my feelings) for a child which went against all my natural instincts.

The people who should have known better worked against us. The kid’s gran and uncle, who he stayed with often, knew there was something very wrong with the kid but primarily blamed me and then my partner for following my lead. Of course the kid didn’t show his true colours with gran as she was a soft touch and he could get all sorts of things from her. He used her mercilessly for gain and she supplied everything he asked for like she was buying his love. She just didn’t see that not because she didn’t want to see, she just didn’t get it. She could never see that it wasn’t love, it was projection on her part.
We asked her to follow our instructions when he was with her but she did the opposite and even told the kid not to take notice of us. What a trade off, him being away from us for a week to come back worse than ever and with his gran’s approval.

She blamed rejection for his problems, she believed too many so called rejections had made the kid insecure and unloved, what she didn’t see is the kid had done all the rejecting. She was the ‘give them plenty of hugs and sweets and they would be fine’ brigade. He rejected his mother from birth and would never settle with her so my partner took over his care from the start. When I hear lack of bonding causes problems in later life I always consider which party doesn’t bond and what reason. Psychopaths are not capable of bonding and I firmly believe the genetic component gives the propensity to psychopathic behaviour. It develops over time and psychopathic children learn the trade.

I remember the feeling of waking up every morning thinking through the coming day and what the kid was going to do that day. Being on your guard and constantly preparing ahead to avoid situations was exhausting. I had to second guess all the manipulations, cons and tricks and nasty things that were on his agenda. It was though he had a list of misdemeanours and would sort out a few for every day then drop those and go back to others on the list. Of course all the time the list was getting longer. By the time he left for the school bus we would have had at least 6 or 7 items ticked off that day’s list.

Trouble is where do you send these kids that are your own children? My partner was so reluctant to send him back to his mother. They divorced when the kid was 19 months. I thought it was the best place for him because she would have no house rules and she wouldn’t have to endure some of his issues. She has plenty of her own! In the beginning he blamed her poor parenting for the kid being like he was. She sent him to live with my partner when he was age 6 because he was destroying her new marriage and she couldn’t cope with his behaviour any longer.

I thought our only way out would be that the kid would be taken into custody or into care. It may have happened but we will never know, when he went back to his mother at age 14 he cut all contact with his father. He knew we had seen right through him and he couldn’t con us any longer, he had to find new pastures. Fortunately he was too puny to be violent so we didn’t have to deal with rages, all his aggression was very covert. He was very physically immature so we didn’t even witness hi going through puberty.
I have been doing some research on children being exposed to too much testosterone in the womb because I was trying to find out if violent children who have rages are affected by this. There does seem to be a correlation. Professor Simon Baron-Cohen has done some interesting research. Some of the findings are to do with Autism but there again some symptoms of Autism have similarities to psychopathy such as lack of empathy and bonding, the brain working is a different way and not making eye contact. I am in no way suggesting that the two conditions are related, just that if too much testosterone can influence brain development for one condition it could be the cause of others.

If only we could educate more people and try to get them to accept our kids are who they are and it’s not because of anything we have done or not done.
It’s good to hear you say you can enjoy the time without B around….if only others would let you! I hope I can give you some reassurance that B’s behaviour is out of your hands, there is nothing more that you can do.

Regards
Jan

Hi Jan, My son-in-law and daughter are still very young (still in their 20's). My daughter really does remember how B was growing up, she had to restrain him sometimes too while he raged and spit and threatened. A couple of summers ago, they had him come stay with them for a few days. He is usually good in a new place for awhile until he gets a little discipline. (He gets more sympathy that way, people don't see the problem). He had hid some of his pills in places that the babies could get them and my daughter had spoken harshly to him about it. He threatened her with a kitchen knife and she had to lure him outside, lock the door, and call my son-in-law to come home from work. She reminded him of that in our discussion the other night. But in his mind, that still doesn't change the fact that he thinks there is a solution for his behavior. Of course he expressed his love to me and said he was just trying to help. It doesn't help though. The only thing that helps is either avoiding the subject when I don't want to think about it or just listen when I need to vent.

B has been suspended twice in the last 2 weeks for loosing control at school; calling his principal F-ing retard, telling the superintendent she is dumb, yelling at my husband to shut up and he is going to punch him. He isn't trying to cover up who he is anymore. He is telling us that he is going to call the police and tell them we are beating him up so we will go to jail. He tries to convince others that we are. He even told his Psychopath.O. after his last suspension, but they know him and don't believe him. Someone will though, and then what? B has determined that we are the problem and that he needs to get rid of us along with his little brother with Autism he hates. He states over and over that he wants my husband to die of a heart attack soon. His special Ed teacher told me yesterday that he had been confiding in her about his feelings. (I guess he doesn't expect me to die of natural causes because he thinks he needs to help my death along.) He told her that he could run over me with the car or kill me in my sleep. I shouldn't be shocked...but I am...and frightened. I asked her to write this for me to share with the court.

I was rejected by Children's Hospital for the brain scan. They said he has to be in crisis at the moment. I'd like to know what they consider a crisis!

Hello Exhausted

I get the feeling that no-one knows how to deal with B. He is behaving in a way that needs adult responses but he is only a child. It affirms the lack of knowledge about children with Conduct Disorder. It seems that he will have to do something terrible before he gets the attention he needs. Do you think his behaviour is getting worse because he is approaching puberty? Could it be increasing testosterone levels? His anger must be frightening because people in that heightened state of emotion can become out of control.

Do you record what he does either on video or voice recording? I'm sure people don't accept the real situation is as serious as it is. Even if they did there seems to be nothing available to help either the child or the family. They may be just empty threats but they may not so need to be taken seriously.

Hopefully because B is telling others about his thoughts of doing harm it will help you get some confirmation of what is going on in his head.

I used to think when my partner's kid was living with us that the only way he would be removed was for him to commit a crime serious enough for him to be locked away. I was concerned that someone would be hurt before that happened and seemed a high price to pay to get his behaviour acknowledged.
Once when he threatened to tell social services that he was mistreated my partner handed him the phone and even offered to dial the number for him. He was told that if he did he would be taken away and it would be put into care. If I was in that situation again I would ensure he he reported us to social services.


It must be like waiting for a volcano to erupt living with B, nothing can be done to stop the inevitable and you can't predict exactly how much damage will be done.

Regards
Jan

Hi , I think your best option might be if you choose is to get some of those "baby cams" to place around the house to capture those evil moments. It would be hard to dispute a live tape of him in action. They are under $50.00. Perhaps you might get in writing from everyone who he has exposed his vile thoughts. Unfortunately until he is 18 he can't get an evaluation outside of conduct disorder which is a polite way of saying young Psychopath. Also a timeline of when he had the conversation with the Teacher he was confiding in all the way down the line including the dates of what he was locked up etc. You could then back up what he does at home with tapes.


I feel very worried for your family and their safety. Do you keep in contact with his PO? He might be another person to write something up. I find setting up a timeline easier to manage using Excel.

You have very good reason to be afraid. I would get him on tape, show the police the damage and get him out of the home to kiddie prison so you can re group and pile up the evidence. Are you familiar with the police in your area?

My heart goes out to you and your family.

I think this is one of the worst case I have heard of in 10 years with the forum.

Keep us informed and even vent, together more heads thinking of your situation the better.

I never thought I would say this but I would consider an alarm outside his door.

Best regards,

Di

You both have good ideas. Thank you. I had the teacher write a letter about B's death threats on myself, my husband and another of my sons. I sent a fax to his Psychopath.O. with this letter and a copy of the summery of his psych report. I wrote on the cover page that he has written on the wall and dresser in the bathroom in large letters, "six feet deep". I reminded them that the court ordered this psych evaluation and it recommends that he not be placed back into the home environment due to the risk to his family. But they continue to send him back and we have no remedy. We are afraid for our other children and now for ourselves. I stated that he continues to abuse us, but if something serious happens, we will have to hold the court responsible.

That didn't come through right.I'm trying this again.

You both have good ideas. Thank you. I had the teacher write a letter about B's death threats on myself, my husband and another of my sons. I sent a fax to his Probation Officer with this letter and a copy of the summery of his psych report. I wrote on the cover page that he has written on the wall and dresser in the bathroom in large letters, "six feet deep". I reminded them that the court ordered this psych evaluation and it recommends that he not be placed back into the home environment due to the risk to his family. But they continue to send him back and we have no remedy. We are afraid for our other children and now for ourselves. I stated that he continues to abuse us, but if something serious happens, we will have to hold the court responsible.

That is a great approach, now I would step it up to the next level and start making calls to get your case at the top of their minds to get some action. I would start calling every few days, maybe twice a week.

Can you take photos of the new damage to send to his PO also?

Di

I spent the night in the emergency room with B last night. The night before he was threatening murder and walking around sharpening kitchen knives. He said there were 3 people he wanted dead and he wasn't going to tell me who. (I know he has been talking about wanting his dad dead and killing me in my sleep to other people.) I asked him
what he thought would happen to him if he killed someone? He said, "I watched the show where those two boys killed their father and they only had to be locked up until they were 18." He also has been writing "6 feet deep" on the wall and dresser in the bathroom. Yesterday morning I woke up to find a long serrated edge kitchen knife (which I hadn't been able to find for awhile) stuck in the molding on the other side of my
bedroom wall.
I went to Behavioral Health with Children's services and they said they couldn't see him because he isn't on a medical coupon. So I went up the street to the Crisis Clinic where they have to take you regardless of insurance. They told me to take him to the hospital. After hours of waiting, they sent over a Designated Mental Health Professional who has
the authority to commit someone involuntarily. He tried to get him into one of the two juvenile hospitals in the area, but he told me that even if he could, it would only be for 3 days and then I would have to testify at a hearing in order to keep him in for only another 2 weeks. I asked, "So you are saying that I have to stand up in front of my son
and tell people that I'm afraid of him and about all the behaviors he has; and then have him come back home in two weeks (if they keep him) and have him angrier at me?" He blames me for any time he is put in detention. He tells me on the way that if I say anything about him being bad to the judge and he gets put in detention, it will be all my fault. It couldn't have anything to do with his behavior in the first place right? Anyway, there wasn't room at any facility and they felt it was too dangerous to send him home, so they kept him in the emergency room all night. And since he is a minor, his parent had to
stay there with him. So at about midnight, they brought me in a stretcher right next to his for me to sleep on. I opened my eyes a couple of times to find him staring at me.
Then I took him to court. B was number 50 on the docket and the judge was being lenient with everyone; giving kids 3rd and 4th chances ( of course I can empathize with the moms who look tired and have to bring their kid back home). After all the information his probation officer has, (and he had said, "Don't worry, he won't be coming home
for 30 days,") he stood there wishy washy and said, "well, B is kinda having a hard time." So when his attorney said, "I think we should just hold the time over his head and have him come back in a couple of weeks," the judge agreed. Well, it was only a couple of
school suspensions they were looking at right? I turned around and gave the Psychopath.O. a desperate look and then he said, "Well your honor, you probably should ask his mom how he's been doing." I handed her his hospital release papers from that morning that said "Homicidal" on them and told her that they are trying to find a bed for him in a hospital but it isn't safe to send him home.She finally said, "Well B, we wouldn't want you to hurt yourself." (Um, did I say suicidal? no) At any rate, she decided to keep him,
pending finding a bed for him at a mental hospital. I don't know how long that will take. I talked to the crisis guy on the phone this afternoon and he is going to go interview B tomorrow. If he will voluntarily admit himself, it would be more likely they could get him in. We'll see. Any way you look at it, he will be coming home again in 30 days or less.

Okay, I get it. Everytime I just put the initials for Probation Officer, it turns the first letter into "Psychopath" for me. So it comes out Psychopath O. funny

Hello Exhausted

Talk about living on a knife edge, you literally are!

It makes you wonder what is going on in the society we live in where there is no help for a very disturbed, dangerous child who could physically harm others. Don't these people know the difference between suicidal and homicidal? Has B ever threatened suicide? Is there any way you can get a different diagnosis that would qualify him to be put somewhere secure and could suicide have been 'suggested' to enable this?

Is there any way you could just not go back and pick him up when the 30 days are up? Would they bring him back to your home if you didn't? This may sound extreme but if you don't collect him and they bring him back what about locking the doors and not allowing him back in?

Could there be some legal loophole that would give you some way of relinquishing your rights as an adoptive parent? Or some way of having him charged of an offense however obscure? I wonder if there are some medical lawyers who would have some knowledge of likely charges. Thinking laterally could the other children 'bring a charge' against him as they are in danger?

It is frightening to know that all the time B is not taken care of he is putting you all in danger and it's an accident waiting to happen. Who will be responsible for blame if that happens? Something will happen sooner or later as the boy's anger build up.

What about publicity of your case? In the UK we turn to out local member of parliament. Sometimes the threat of exposing inadequacies of people and agencies is enough to get some action to be taken. They don't want something bad happening in their patch, they have been voted in to represent their constituents so it's their job to find solutions.

I wish there was a way I could be of help to you and your family, it's so frustrating not being able to offer any practical assistance.


My thoughts are with you.

Jan

Hi Exhausted, it's me the camera person. Please do anything you can while he is away to arm your house with cameras that capture words, check your local regulations about the voice part. I know it is easy for me to say but I would be right on the phone with that Psychopath.O who said he would help and then shows up acting like a mouse.

B is not so smart, many times youths also take the chance of going to kiddy prison then transfered over to regular prison or tried as an adult. Premeditation happens within the blink of the eye, in your case it would also be more than premeditaion but a well laid out plan if you capture it on film. As I recall those two boys who murdered their father were also pushed along by the neighbor and I think they were much younger than B.

Pray there is some way that he doesn't return home and hound the authorities to put things in writing as far as evidence which would probably allow them to testify on your behalf. This isn't a kid with a problem this is danger running about. I bought my camera for the best price at www.overstock.com, the nanny cans are what you want to google. I would be grabbing that PO by his shirt collar and go after him for his mouse like appearance (not exactly saying so but you know what I mean.

I apologize in advance for hounding you about the cameras, just check and double check if the camera can have audio for evidence so it doesn't get tossed out as tainted evidence. There is a site online which lays out what states can do with video as far as evidence. It will be hard since you are such a kind person in a situation most of us can only imagine but I would hound whoever I could and hound them some more to get their written observations. GIve them deadlines and then hound them somemore to make sure they submit them. Make sure your camera has a date stamp to document all the photos etc. you turned over already to the authorities or get something in writing from them to not break the chain of evidence.

Is there anyway you could take a leave from work to get all this documented and ready? Can you find an attorny hopefully pro bono to represent you and your husband?

My sympathy goes out to you during this horrible, horrible doesn't describe it well enough but you are in our prayers.

Di

Please let us know any information you need researched, if you email me I will track down the camera information.

Hi Jan, He has been very clear that he is not suicidal. When he was much younger he claimed that he wanted to kill himself so he wouldn't hurt anyone, but he denies feeling that way now. I have recently considered contacting some kind of news agency to get some publicity for our situation and maybe some intervention. I know that would put all of our lives in further turmoil and public scrutiny. He can be so charming, what if he comes out the victim? I also know that I must protect the privacy of my other adopted children from their drug addicted mother. But I will have no choice but to scream it out if our lives are threatened any further.

Dianne, I am looking into the cameras, I have a really good sound monitor now that I'm going to place somewhere inconsipicuously in his room so we can hear if he is up in the night. I do have some recordings of his rages, just not recent or long ones. I don't know what an attorney can do to help with Juvenile court. A suggestion was made that I consider disrupting the adoption so that the state would be forced to take responsibility for him. We would definately need an attorney for that. It just seems so tragic.

I received a phone call from the DMHP (designated mental health professional I think) that interviewed B at the jail this weekend and is trying to get him a bed in a juvenile mental health hospital. He answered some questions I've had for a long time.
He told me that B's actions are definately well thought out and planned and he does these things as "pay back" or out of anger. He says that a mental hospital wouldn't do anything for him because his mental illness diagnosis are personality disorders that cannot be treated with medication. He doesn't have voices telling him to do things for instance. He is still willing to get him into a hospital if he self admits, but he would have to be ready to take responsibility for his behavior to benefit from any counseling.
He said that he is positive that B is fetal alcohol affected; a brain scan would verify that, but since they won't do it, we already know. Regardless, his behaviors will need to be controlled through the criminal system because there is nothing that mental health can do to help him unless he is prepared to respond to counseling. He told B that he could spend his entire life locked up if he doesn't choose to cooperate with society. I know that B seems to be willing right now to get help. I know it is because he feels sorry for himself. It is the only way he will change though, if he finds it benefits him.
So, I'm not sure what will happen next. They may admit him somewhere because he is asking for it. (Just wants out of detention) I know that the judge only put him in detention to hold him for that purpose. The charges were only a school suspension, so they can't hold him too long. Of course the best thing would be for him to have learned his lesson this time and miraculously become a kind person, right? But I'm not niave, and since I know that really the only way to respond now is through the criminal system, I am going to call the cops out for every little threat or abuse until he has enough points to hold him in the long term fascility. I understand that there is more intense phychological help and counseling in these places also.

My husband and I are going to take a much needed couple of days vacation for our anniversary. Our younger children are staying at a close friend's and B is in a safe place. We need some R&R.

Darn lost my post. I would also put an alarm outside his room.

Any chance you can spend some time searching out criminal attoryes, some will work pro bono, I know of a few victims that this has worked.

Are Judges elected where you are? If so I am sure the Judge would not like having his name in a newspaper in a negative form. From my years in marketing prepare your answers to be 5 second sound bites so nothing will be taken out of order.

If anyone deserves a break you do.

I would also search to find out if it is required to have representation for you and your family?

Also check out if sound on the video is allowed in your area/ Probably a quick call to a baby camera company would settle the question. Tainted evidence will get tossed out. Also you could google for info.

Try the nolo link www.nolo.com listed here might be a resource, they have been around a million years and see if what you are seeking is there, they do have some attornies if you could grab one.

Di

From nolo

Do You Qualify for Free Legal Help?
If you face criminal charges and cannot afford to hire your own lawyer, you have a constitutional right to an attorney at the government's expense.

In other types of cases, if you can't afford an attorney, you may qualify for legal aid. Legal aid lawyers are usually federally or state funded and represent people with low incomes in a variety of legal situations, including eviction defense, denial of unemployment compensation or other benefits, and consumer credit problems. Some local bar associations organize members who volunteer to represent clients in family law, landlord-tenant, and other cases.

If your claim involves an issue of social justice and has wide implications beyond your individual situation, an attorney or public interest legal organization with an interest in that issue may represent you on a "pro bono" (no fee or reduced fee) basis.

Hi Exhausted

It seems like it’s just a matter of time before something gives. I can imagine the daily grind of waiting for something to happen whether it’s the authorities taking notice or B doing something serious that will get him incarcerated.

I was thinking along the lines of publicity for your case but hesitated to say go public because of the scrutiny you would expose yourselves to. Maybe the time will come when the balance is tipped in favour of getting recognition this way. The difficulty is outsiders to recognise the child’s deception, they are capable of such a convincing act of sweetness and co-operation. They are masters as saying the right the things to the right people. The best publicity for us all is to get across to professionals who don’t fully understand what we deal with on a daily basis how abnormal our way of life has become. The small subtle things are nearly as bad as the serious things because we are constantly on our guard noticing the fine details. Some of these things have a bigger meaning to us as they often indicate a ‘threat’. An outsider would have no reason to consider what they really mean. These are the crazy making things that other people wouldn’t do….the things we even question ourselves about and wonder if we are really seeing the things we are. We ask ourselves if we are mad thinking it or if it really is important. We get to the stage of ignoring some of things as there are too many other issues to deal with.

In some ways it would be better if B is suicidal so that he gets 24/7 monitoring for his own safety. Would a positive diagnosis of FAS help you get mental health more involved? I realise it’s not curable and there is no medication to improve the condition but is there any medication available that will help the mood effects?
I still keep thinking about the testosterone effect, has he been checked to see if he has high levels exacerbating his anger?

Relinquishing parental rights or at least the threat of it might wake up the authorities, would it be possible to get some free legal advice to give you some information to work with? In the UK we have some lawyers who will do a free 30 minute session to evaluate if there is a case.

With personality disorders in young people there has been some positive research that criminal behaviour can be reduced after (I hesitate to call it therapy) counselling but this could be a double edge sword. Firstly the person will only ever co-operate if it benefits them and if they see the rewards of behaving in a certain way they will, secondly it could be temporary for short term gain, thirdly they learn more about what is expected of them and learn to be more deceptive.

I hope you enjoy your break, you certainly need it.

Regards
Jan

We had a wonderful, peaceful break. Thank you.
Jan, you have hit the nail on the head about the questioning ourselves about those crazy making things. I have been living in a surreal world that no one else (except others who are in the same situation) could even imagine, let alone continue it day to day for years! I went through the crate of stuff I have and sorted into catagories all the school discipline reports, the medical/hospital emergency/medications stuff, the court reports/assault records/youth at risk/detention/court ordered anger classes, the family writings-pages of notes I've made/reports family members have written of events/letters B has written/drawings since 6 of family being burned or teachers being shot,Social and psychological write ups from various professionals. And I wonder why I keep questioning if I'm making too much of this? It's like I have gotten so good at just living one day at a time and celebrating a good day or part of a good day, that I have trained myself to forgive and forget for the sake of survival.

So here's the ultimate irony: I finally got mental health to take me seriously and try to get him admitted into a mental hospital. Even B took me serious enough to agree to self admit. But I got a phone call from the mental hospital telling me that even though they had available beds, they would not take him due to the fact that he is dangerous.....
DUHH!
And Children's won't do a brain scan because he isn't in crisis.....
So tomorrow I have to go to court again and see what they are going to do. Most likely he will be sent home because obviously they think he isn't dangerous enough for them to keep him.....
And all ANYONE can say to me is, "Sorry, there's nothing we can do."
I can't refuse to go get him if he is released because then I would be charged with the crime of child abandonment.....
So I guess they should just get a bowl of popcorn and watch what he does next. Like a game of Russian roulette; who and when is it going to be?

Hi Exhausted

It's like you have 3 steps forward and 2 back but making very slow progress. Talk about Catch 22! B is too dangerous to stay in hospital but safe to come home where there are young children.

If only we could find a way around the threat of a child abandonment charge.....that is crazy...it puts your other children and you at risk by bringing him home. Is there a counter charge you could bring on behalf of the children? Can you be 'too ill' to bring him home? There must be some legal loophole that would give you a valid reason. If only we could get a lawyer involved!

Do you know they would press charges or is it a threat to encourage you because they don't know what to do with him. Maybe now is the time to go public! If he does get sent home can you request a delay to enable you to prepare the house for his return...locks for safety for instance? I know I would insist that whoever makes the decision to send him home takes FULL responsibility for any outcome. I know that is little comfort to you because it means you will wait in fear for something to happen.

I remember the crazy way of living only too well. I thought we were the only people living a bizarre existence as though it was normal...but there again it had become normal. I too, ignored so many things just to give myself a break or I would have been constantly on alert, many of these things would have been totally unacceptable in other homes and it went against my principles but I would have gone insane trying to keep things right. I even got so I wanted other people to see some of the things the kid did to validate what I saw to reassure me I wasn't going mad. Maybe you should invite the decision makers into your home for 24 hours, that would open their eyes.

I would ask these professionals what they would do in your situation....would they accept a dangerous person back in their home? Another thought, is there any possibility of asking for a chaperone to come home with B as a requirement so as not to be threatened with abandonment? I don't know how the law would see that but if you were saying you are NOT abandoning him but putting safety requirements in place.

I wish I had studied law!

I will be thinking of you all.

Regards
Jan

Hi, great job on getting the evidence in order. If you could get a pro bono attorney and present all this information someone will take an interest.

I had an idea since it would be confidential to call the probation officer and ask for some names of attorneys, start off by saying this request isn't about anything he has done so he won't feel defensive and will possibly cooperate. He has to know attorneys.

I would guess there are certain areas of the house where B has his threatening fits and start by one recorder at a time as finances can handle. At the least I would also include your and your husbands room with alarms along with B's so he can't sneak in there while you are sleeping or any other time during the day etc. Check out the laws in your state about recordings, some do allow and others don't so if your state doesn't it will get tossed aside.

My stomach turned when I read he was released due to violence, what kind of world are we living in. One last thing I would assume this place had videos I would find out how often they play over them because they probably won't turn over the videos without an attorney's request. Obviously B did some horrible things while there. That would be something an attorney would need to hop on to get those tapes. My best guess being a facility like that they would keep the tapes longer than lets say a convenience store.

Di

I hope you don't think I am loading you up with information, these are just thoughts I have to try my best to help.

I didn't realize you hadn't oficially adopt B yet, there must be some system to drop the application since I assume he is considered to be in foster care until the adoption is finalized? I would think it would't take an attorney but a call to drop the request for adoption. Make it their problem to take him out of them home to some poor people down the road. Sounds cruel but you are fighting for your household safety where everywone is a target. I wouldn't let B know just figure out how you can MAKE them take him back.

I should clear that up for you Dianne, We officially adopted B when he was an infant. He is all ours. But there is a thing called disillusionment. It's kindof like a divorce from your adopted kid. Very final. It doesn't happen too often and it takes an attorney and hearings to give cause. The court could still refuse to grant it. I have been doing a little research on available attorneys that handle adoption disillusionments.

Also, B was never admitted to a mental hospital, he was sitting in detention waiting to get a bed in one. But the hospital refused to admit him because they felt he was too dangerous based on information from the Designated Mental Health Professional that interviewed B and had a bundle of faxed documents from me. B was supposed to have court today so the judge could decide what to do with him. (I expected him to be sent home like usual) I showed up and he wasn't on the docket afterall. I have a weekend reprieve.

He exhausted, sorry for thinking B still in the adoption process. A weekend away from B is a true blessing everytime he is not in the home. During this disillusionment process (this is all something I know nothing about) does B get represented by a lawyer? From a reasonable perspective I can't imagine being denied based on all the documents you have.

If B gets assigned a lawyer I would think it would not be legal for you to be without. Finding a lawyer quicker than later could prove your case. If your lawyer is up to speed, then I would hope that the attorney assigned to B would be like most, over booked and many times read the file in the elevator to the hearing.

There is a solution but how do we grasp it, I think all your research is terrific. Now to find the attorney. nolo has some listings for attorneys.'

Di

The juvenile court could be a great place to find an attorney as long as they are in private practice. They must be listed somewhere and maybe even an offical lawyer for juveniles would certainly know of a few that have left to pursue private practice?

Hi Exhausted

I have also been looking at the dissolution failed adoption and came across this article.

http://www.adopting.org/uni/frame.php?url=http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20000813melissa4.asp

It came from this web site but you may have found it already. It has information on the legal matters of adoption too.

http://www.adopting.org/adoptions/a-parents-guide-to-adoption-disruption-dissolution-resources.html

It seems like the best solution for everyone and B won't care about leaving his family behind which is one positive benefit that his lack of empathy will have to give you some comfort. My partner's kid went back to his mother and the sense of relief was immense for both of us but brought terrible depression on my partner. He then had to come to terms with what sort of parent he was to give up his own son because he knew he wouldn't have any further contact with him. He was torn emotionally because he was relieved and happy that he had gone but felt guilty about being relieved. It took a while to see things clearly and now he rarely thinks of him. The kid could have contacted him at any time but chose not to, he had no affection for anyone not even his father and this helped him accept the kid didn't care about him.
No-one really understands the torment parents go through when giving up on their child however bad they are. They blame themselves for not being strong enough to cope and have a sense of failure not being able to mend the child. Not only that but there is a sense of grief and loss of the child you wanted before everything went wrong.

My partner refused for years to let the kid go back to his mother because of what she was like but there was no choice in the end, the kid decided for himself and she seemed to have forgotten why she dumped him on his father in the first place. He is so much like his mother I'm sure they will rub along together better than with anyone else.

I do feel that none of us can offer you any practical help and if only our thoughts and wishes could be turned into actions we would be more supportive.

I hope you can enjoy your free weekend.

Regards
Jan

I am still alive, just exhausted. B has been out of Juvey for a week now and is already suspended from school. My work has taken far more than I expected and then there's the Holidays.... I am sure that there are some that might be worried under the circumstances since I haven't written on the forum for awhile. (I know I am.) Last night as we were driving to a church youth function, he calmly told me that I haven't even begun to see what he could do when he's really angry. Then he told his 12 yr old sister that there are times he would love to beat the "_" out of her, but then he would have to be in Juvey for longer than 30 days. I thought, "and that's the only thing that holds him back?" He knows that murder would only be until he's 18. There are times he thinks it would be worth it.
My Superintendent has offered to pay for 2 years at a boy's ranch on the other side of the state. He would attend alternative school, have intense therapy, and work with horses. If anything is ever going to help, it's worth a try. If nothing else, it would give my family and me some relief. Just waiting to see if they have space. I'll believe it when I see it though. There have been too many years of despair and hopelessness that I don't want to build up any hope.

Hi
Long time since I responded to you, but I was thinking of you a lot!
I know exactly what you mean by saying there are too many years of hoping...It came to a point forme that I don't want to hope..It only gives disappointments and when there are too many of those it will exhaust you even more!! better not to hope anymore.....Then all the emotions involved with disappointments.

I was thinking in my absence; If it is not possible to get help for B...Isn't there a possibillity to get help for the other children? I am not in you country so forgive me for wrong thinking...When I would be in that same situation I think I would be able to get help for the rest of the family.... It isn't healthy for children to live like this. The constant threatning, the fear, a live like in hell.. exhausted parents...And all because of one child. There must be something to do about it?

At the same time I think this can be difficult for when telling not to be able to look after and take care of one of the children, they might think the other children are not save either??
And I guess you thought of every possibillity yourself already...

The offer of the superintendent is great.. Ooo this would give some air won't it!!!
he will be 2 years older and 2 years more clever and 2 year more stronger..But in those 2 years peolpe will probably see a lot of his true behaviour... And that could mean he is never to return!
Those two years can also be used for you and your husband to get back on your feet a bit..( i guess this will take longer than 2 years) And think of new ways to handle the situation. Maybe there are laws and rules that can't be used for he is too young still, that come in handy when he is a bit older??

My heart goes out to you, i have a son like that and am still not finished with all that happend. he left my house 11 years ago!!
All the memories are spoiled , and there are things I still don;t understand.
I wish you well
Segaya

Hello Exhausted

It must be like sitting on a time bomb. It seems as though there isn't any sort of system to help parents with children like B. He is still a child but with the problems of a mature adult.
These thing she says about harming his sister, is it said partly to shock and hurt you or is it because that is really what he wants to do? It amazing how he has thought these things through and considers his future detention, that is not a psychopathic trait. I have always had the feeling that there is much more going on with B than we will ever know. I think you mentioned some of the diagnoses he has had and others that have been discounted but something could have been missed. I can't help feel that testosterone levels have something to do with his problem.

It would be great if he could get 2 years on the ranch, is there any reason it won't happen? It would be good for you and your family to know he has a wonderful opportunity under supervision rather than being shut away without any hope for his future. If it happens and he seizes the opportunity then great but if he doesn't use it then you have done all you could. It's his choice.
The family would have some breathing space and maybe build up some defences for his visits home.

I do think of you often and feel concerned for the whole family. If only there was some practical way to help I would certainly give you support. My situation was never as bad as yours but I do know the feeling of helplessness and frustration.

Regards
Jan

Quakerlady
member

Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 5
We adopted a 5 year old child from Korea 20 years ago. She made our lives living hell and throughout the years divided family and friends and almost my husband and I. When she was 12 years old, her psychiatrist told me to send her to boarding school and never look back. She would never be normal. I felt this was rather harsh but being a psychologist I knew something was terribly wrong. Unfortunately, not long after her arrival, I was in a very bad accident and have suffered from Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy ever since. Fortunately, I have had some recent surgeries that that have actually improved my situation.

I also was able to use some of my professional techniques to deal with my pain. Consequently, I was not on heavy duty drugs that totally wiped me out. However, I was in terrible pain for a long time. My daughter used to strike my arm to get a reaction from me. She hurt animals and just about anything good she ruined. We offered her a wonderful home with great opportunities and the best private schools.

She lied, stole, cheated and wore me down. My husband thought I was being tough on her and would side with her in many incidents. Honestly, I thought I was losing my mind. When she got in trouble at school, she called me because I would would come to her rescue. I guess I was setup more then I would like to imagine. Finally, I got a break and she married in 2004 and lived on the other side of the country.

All contact ceased for a long time. I felt relieved and my marriage was no longer in jeopardy. People asked about her and I put them off when I said I am not interested in discussing that part of my life. If this was not what they wanted to hear, I really did not care. Anyway many lost friends and family and life went on. One day last fall she called begging for help. She told me her husband was doing drugs and she wanted to come home and finish college and of course how sorry she was for all that had happened. #1-MISTAKE..I said yes!!!!

I began paying for all her things to be shipped, including her car and her cat. I paid for a lawyer and to repair her car from 2 accidents after returning and whatever else she needed. I guess I thought maybe this would be a good thing. Well, it was a disaster and I am still reeling from all that has happened. I am also undergoing surgeries in the midst of this and my doctor discovered a very rapid heartbeat and became concerned.

I never discussed my daughter but had to tell him that since her return there had been a lot of turmoil. Police came to our home several times. She wanted to charge me with assault and get her property and make life horrible once again. Then a rental car was never returned that was rented by someone impersonating her 2500 miles away. Identity theft of a scheme she devised? Unfortunately, I think she was somehow involved. Anyway, she is gone again but way too close for comfort. I fear for my safety and the police could care less. The restraining order has expired and was obtained in another state where we have a second home. The police said you need a basis for an order. What do you have? I fear she will hurt me. That is not enough according to the Pa State police. When does this all end?