I think my Mother-in-Law (MIL) is a Psychopath for several reasons I will explain.

1.She told me 13 years ago after I married her son that "some people are Psychopaths and will do what ever they can to get what they want".

2.She is very manipulative of her children to get her needs met.And manipulative in general.

3.She lacks remorse,is controlling,and never is wrong.

4.She is very egocentric,always bragging about her accomplishments. Others say she is full of herself.

5.She lacks normal planning ahead in life,very irresponsible financially.Years ago My aunt(who was a retirement planner for MIL line of work) offered to help her plan her retirement.She was not interested and insulted my aunt.In the last year she has told me that she will not have any medical or dental benefits other than Medicaid no vision or dental when she retires.I over heard her tell my husband this Christmas that she will not have enough money to retire on,and it will not increase even if she works for more years.

6.She has told my husband and I, her friends son went to college to become a Registered Nurse to take care of his parents.

7.My husband is now graduated college and is an RN.

8.I have said to her my husband went to college for his family(my kids&I and my husband).She replied she went to college for her kids and herself and her mother.(Her mother was on her death bed,and my mother in law is single).

9.One of my sister-in-laws told me she thinks our MIL has a very weird personality.And how our mother in law has basically said how she does not like my husband and I married.And how she thinks I am not a good mother to my children.

I hope this makes since I have rambled on a bit. Thanks for any advice or insight.

Hello Allie and welcome

Can I start by asking if you are having problems with your MIL that affects your family life? You say you think she is a 'sociopath' so first we need to understand what you believe that term to mean. Many take it to mean a description of someone who is non criminal and functioning in society although in an antisocial way but people like Dr Hare do not use the word. The diagnostic term is Antisocial Personalty Disorder and can be taken further to add 'with psychopathic traits'. The word 'sociopath' is no longer used but I understand why people still prefer to use it because of the confusion of what a psychopath is. It sounds less severe and dramatic. They are not all criminal or like the classic film psychopath.

What does define a psychopath is total lack of empathy, guilt or remorse. I think you must have looked at Dr Hare's checklist so do you think those characteristics and all the others fit your MIL?

It's not possible to diagnose any disorder without extensive assessments from professionals but we can take a guess and look at the information to research what we suspect.

Your MIL sounds unpleasant and you may have played down your feelings towards her,can you choose not to be in her company so she doesn't cause you too many problems personally?

I would say read all you can and avoid this woman whenever possible whatever she is if it causes you stress to be near her. How does your husband cope with her?

Maybe you can tell us a bit more and that could help you verbalise the problems you have which in turn might help you put things into perspective?

Regards
Jan

I will try to be more specific.I have done some reading on Anti Social Personality Disorder.My MIL sounds like the classification Alienated Sociopath - ALIENATED SOCIOPATHS have never developed the ability to love, empathize, or affiliate in real life with another person. They will show more emotion toward their pet or a personal artifact than toward a person. Or, they may hate animals and live out their emotional life by watching TV (identification with soap opera characters is a common pattern). Dating and marriage relationships will be very barren and empty. They won't get along with the neighbors. They live in a shell. They have a cold, callous attitude toward human suffering or any social problem in the society they live in. They just don't care because it's outside their range of empathy. Most will believe they are justified in this because they feel they were cheated in some way themselves by society, and a few will be more than happy to rant and rave about it to anyone who listens. They are chronic complainers, and underneath it all, they would like to see nothing better than all of society destroyed.Quoted from a website.
My MIL shows more emotion tword her pets,even around children when her animals growl or snap at the children in the family.She gets very upset about her materialisim in her house beyond what is normal with other people and their stuff.
She just seems to fit the description above.She does not like anyone no matter who they are telling her what to do.She has problems at what ever job she has or whom ever is her superior.She is just really irresponsible financially buys houses over and over again and can't afford them so has to move.She will not plan ahead and so forth.All of these traits fit the personality disorder.She got upset with my sister in laws mother when she asked my MIL's age and what she was going to do in the future with herself.
I have also done reading on what causes the disorder and her family life fits it.She had an alcholic mother whom was never benevolent to her all her life.Mil always tells people in the family of her mother's lack of love and rejection of her and not to her siblings.I think for what ever reason she believes she is an anti social personality,and may have been warning me years ago in her kitchen that "some people are sociopaths and will do what they have to to get their way."
My husband does not like to deal with her he is afraid of her.He will not try to reason with her becuase he says it will do no good.An example, we were having problems with her several years ago and stayed away from her for a year.She went to our church and told them she tried to call us on the phone but our phone was disconnected,she even had my brother in law say he tried to call us too.Then my husband and I found out from this same brother MIL always had our phone number and he got it from her to call us.When my husband and I asked her about it she replyed you cannot believe what your brother says.And today when I ask her of things she has told my husband she says my husband cannot be believed,and that was not what she said that someone else said it.She covers her lies this way.
No one else in the family seems to have the trouble with her that my husband and I do.We were the first ones to marry and have children.I did get some counceling and the councelor said the reason we have more problems than my husbands brothers and their wives is because they set boundaries with my MIL early on in their marriages.My husband has told me that I do not have any family so my MIL picks on me more because I do not have anyone to defend me. I hope I explained my problems with my MIL better this time.
Thanks,
Allie

Hello Allie

Your MIL sounds like the sort of person you do not want to be around. Is there any reason you stay in contact with her? It would seem she has other family members around if she needs someone to take care of her, so can you just stop any involvement with her? It sounds as though your husband has already distanced himself from her so I’m sure he wouldn’t think badly of you if you did too. Is this part of the problem, that you are concerned you will be seen as the callous one for deserting an elderly lady?

I have never seen the further classification of a psychopath that you mention but you have obviously been doing a lot of research to fathom out what is wrong with this woman. These characteristics of the alienated type are very typical of a psychopath. I have a feeling the ’extra’ categories have been invented is to explain the type of antisocial but non criminal behaviour they engage in and live in society.

At the age your MIL is now I doubt she will ever change so you would only spend the rest of her life trying to achieve the impossible if you try to help her mend her ways.
She may have had a poor upbringing herself but as an adult she had choices and she has chosen her way of life. People often have personalities like their parents so maybe she is like her mother.

This situation is giving you a lot of unnecessary stress, to avoid it you will have to be the one to make changes as she won’t. If I was in that situation I would walk away and leave her to it. She has your BIL around so he can keep in touch with you and keep you updated if you really want to know. As you say they set boundaries with her early on so they recognise they could also have had problems with her if they hadn't. It's not too late to set your boundaries but yours might now need to be more secure because she has learned your weaknesses.

Life is too short to take on someone else’s issues so look after yourself and your husband. He must feel emotionally battered after being brought up by her. Just goes to show that a poor upbringing didn’t make your husband like her. He made different choices. He deserves your care and concern, not his mother.

Take care of yourself.
Jan

Yes,I am worried that others in the family and my MIL's friends will see me as callous for deserting an elderly woman,or worse yet having my husband desert his elderly mother who helped us out some while he was going through college.My MIL is very crafty,I think she has a plot to try to get me out of her son's life so he can be there for her to take care of her and her needs not me his wife.I am a Home Maker and Stay at Home Mom so we do not have an additional income or retirement.So I am a burden to her son,not her his Mother.In my MIL's mind she wanted my husaband to go to college and become an RN for her whether or not he did or not,and that I am the enemy standing in her way of her son taking care of her.She wants my husband to work at a hospital near her so we can live close to her.But I know what she really wants is for us to move there so she can plot to sabotage my marriage.I mean if her RN son lives near her who better yet to take care of her out of all of her kids my husband!I know my inlaws do not want to be the ones to take care of her as needy as she is.My MIL always wants involvement with her son so that includes me and my kids.I do not see how to avoid her.Just because I do not want my husband to have to take care of his Mother that makes me a bad person?I truley think to my MIL my husband is the perfect fit answer to all her problems and that she will not stop that is the biggest reason I think she is psycopath,I mean there is a line between what she wants and her son's well being as a person,she does not seem to have care or concern for her doings regarding her son,just her own needs.It has helped me put things into perspecive to write on this board.
Thanks,
Allie

Hi Allie

I can see that you are a carer and try to do the right thing but your MIL will probably not appreciate whatever you do for her.

You mentioned that your in laws set boundaries for dealing with her, maybe it's time for you to do the same? She may have helped her son, YOUR husband, through college but that is what parents do, it's their responsibility to educate and provide for the children they choose to have. It should not be done as an insurance policy for old age.

It seems you are taking too much responsibility for your MIL, isn't it time you gave her some options? You see her on your terms and if she says anything you don't like, you leave? If she is warned that is what will happen, she can choose what happens when you visit. Can you think about offering her those choices that suit you and if she doesn't like it then it's her problem.

Sometimes you can do too much for someone and that stops them doing something for themselves or even in return for what they have been given. It can be very one sided.

You might think this is harsh but if I had to deal with this woman I would let her get on with life, you don't owe her anything and neither does your husband. She has made her choice and maybe you should accept it. You can always jump in and rescue her when she sends out the distress signals.

You mention family, how does she treat your children?

I hope you do think about yourself and your family first. I did feel you are worried about what others will think. I think you are too kind and probably so does everyone else!
Allow yourself to let go?

Regards
Jan

My children have not been really treated well by my MIL.My husband even said recently that it is disgraceful how his mother has treated non biological grand kids better than her own biological grandkids.The reason we think this way is she would not watch our kids for us so we could go out together alone,or when I was working.But for my sister in law's kid she watched her all the time while they were dating and after they married.And today watches them(her kid and his and her kid) so they can go out.And picks them up from day care and keeps them over night even when she works full time,so my sister in law can work out of town all the time.It almost seems over kill baby sitting to make up for not helping us.And she denies this and my in laws of course believe her,my BIL even said my husband was lieing about their mother not helping he and I with our kids.My husband has said the reason for this behaviour from his mother was because when we had our kids no one was around and she could get away with it.But today she can't.Because she cares what her in laws and son's will think of her,lucky them!
Thanks again,
Aliie

Hi Allie

I wonder why you have anything to do with your MIL? She is neither a mother, grandmother or a friend.

Isn't it time you let her get on with her life as she chooses to live it and you can get on with your own family life? She made her choices and it looks like she wants to exclude your family group so give her what she wants.

If you have done all you feel obliged to then you have no further obligations to her.

There are plenty of people around her so she will not be isolated and even if you have no contact with her they can let you know if she ever does decide she needs you.

Is there a reason you feel you can't let the 'relationship' with her go?

Maybe it's time you please yourself.

Regards
Jan

You are right.I have no reason to hold on,I should let go for me.It is hard when my husband won't let go of his mother like he should he is back and forth with the issue and it is frustrating!Because it causes mariatial and family problems,and even still personal problems.I DO need to set my boundaries and be strong for me and my kids.Who knows if my husband ever will.It makes me think and feel like he does not love me enough to do the right thing for me and our marriage and our kids and our family.My MIL worms her way in from every angle over the years and I am the only one who seems to see it or care!He needs to see his own personal problems because of his Mother for himself,maybe then he can see mine.Thank you for talking with me on here it is what I needed!
Allie

Hi Allie

I'm pleased to hear you are going to do what is best for you. Your husband will have to come to his own conclusions. Maybe it's the nurturer in you that wants to make this situation right for everyone concerned but unfortunately you have to let others take responsibility for their own life.

This has nothing to do with your husband not loving you enough, it is about him being the caring person he is. If he was uncaring you wouldn't have the man you have and he could treat you with less concern. Again you are taking this as a threat to you but if you see it from his perspective it will throw a very different light on things.

Maybe if he sees you have distanced yourself from his mother and it makes you happier then he may follow your example without even discussing it. Leading by example!

I hope you do succeed in doing what you want for a change, your husband and family will have the benefit of a more content person. Best of luck.

Regards
Jan

Well, my fear came true my husbund was fired from his job.He has a pattern of job problems and loses.I was told in counceling it is because of the responsability his mother placed on him to meet her needs since he was a kid.So he has trouble handeling reponsabilities and being responsable for them in his life,which now includes me and our kids not just himself anymore.He needs counceling,but does not see it.His mother conditions him to be arrogant and feeds this so he will not see he has a problem and tell him it is others who are responsible or why did you get married to this woman and have kids with her?,and then he will continue to act out consiously and unconsiosly what she has programmed him to do for her.If he cannot find work that works we will have to move with her then it will not work there.I do not want to go through this,I hope he gets a job and it works out.I really believe my mother in law is has anti social personality,what kind of person mother,grandmother would do this?She is an expert at refracting onto me to get away with her behavoir she is hypocrtitical and very good at it.
Allie

Allie~

I'm sorry your husband was fired from his job. If you have to take advantage of all the resources that are available to you--DO IT--that is why they are there. Help is there for people who need it. It sounds like you love your husband and are frustrated by his BAD behavior. You have every right to be angry at him.

I'm afraid to ask but do you think your husband meets any of the characteristics on Dr. Hares Checklist? I do the checklist on everyone who comes into my life (mostly mentally, but sometimes I hand write it). I might be wrong but it sounds like your husband has the counselor conned (get a new one). You should know that 'CoP' isn't always a wife or a girlfriend. 'CoP' can be a man. 'CoP' can also be psychopaths mother.'CoP's' the worst! These relationships are twisted.


Stay Positive
Elizabeth E.


Holy Antarctica! I'm snowed.

Allie~

I get the feeling that I know you...LOL! Are you snowed in too? Do you live in my town?

Life is strange sometimes.

Is your name Elizabeth!

Hello Allie

That is bad news that your husband lost his job. Are you able to help keeping things afloat until he finds another job? Elizabeth may have some knowledge of the benefit system that could help you so perhaps we can ask her if she knows what is available and how to go about getting some help.

What I do find concerning is that your husband has a pattern of getting fired from his jobs, it’s not much different to him leaving jobs because he can’t cope with the work.
I can see why Elizabeth suggested looking at Hare’s checklist in relation to your husband because the first thing that came to mind are things like:
Irresponsibility
Lack of realistic long term goals
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

And that is just about his working patterns. He doesn’t seem to give you much support, would that be fair to say?

I found it very strange that a counsellor gave that opinion on why he fails to accept responsibilities now. Surely it would be the opposite?

Do you have to move in with your MIL? Or is that what he tells you? Maybe you should let him do that if he thinks it’s a solution to your problems and you stay where you are.
You sound weary and probably worn down by him and his family. Have you considered it might not be your MIL who is the real problem?

How much of the disagreement with your MIL is what your husband has told you rather than you witnessing for yourself? I noticed in your previous posts he excuses and gives’ reasons’ for her behaviour rather than support you. Maybe he is not being very honest with you? Maybe what the counsellor said was his interpretation of what he wants you to hear?

Yes, taking back control of your life will help you not to be so accepting of what other say and do.

I hope you don’t feel we are adding to your burdens by suggesting you look at your husband’s behaviour. By taking a closer look at what is going on won’t change the facts, if he is a good man with some weaknesses then seeing that won’t change him but will allow you to see things more clearly.
From what you have said you are a very caring person and worry about what people think of you but others should respect you, especially your husband. There is nothing wrong with expecting that just as there is nothing wrong with you taking care of your own needs first. Once you feel in a position that allows you to take some control of your life your confidence and self esteem will grow.
It doesn’t make you a bad person if you feel your husband actions need mending, you are not being disrespectful or disloyal but it is a two way street. If he doesn’t provide the support you need then you can do the same.

Your situation with your MIL makes much more sense when you consider your husband in the equation.

Do you think you have more to tell us about him?

Regards
Jan

No, Even though I realize my husband has problems of his own outside his mother. I have went to extensive counceling due to my husband being emotionally incectualized by his mother.I knew his mother before he and I were together and married.So I have some knowlede of the dinamics in thier family.He has manifested problems from his mother putting onto him the surrogant spouse.MIL has 4 other sons, two who also have similar problems with job problems and repeated loses like my husband.The councelor said it would be hard for my husband to have a relashonship with me because of the way his mom raised him.The counceling I recieved was years ago and some 6 months ago.Job loses are one of the ways the manistification has occured.I have given it some thought about my husband and anti social behaviour,but I do not see that for him like I do his mom,maybe he has learned these patterns from his mother.
Thanks allie

Allie~

As per help with electricity and heat there is Energy Assistance. It is for low income families. They will even help you pay your mortgage and rent if you need it. From my research I have noticed it differs from state to state but help is there.Health insurance is free if you qualify. The Catholic church is also a great place to go if you need assistance (even if you aren't catholic). Don't be proud just take the help if you need it. That is why it is there:)

Please bare with me...The first thing I don't like and I know Jan will agree with me on this is that Martha Stout using the word sociopath blames the person's illness on the environment more so. I bought her book and wasn't satisfied with it. I disagreed with her on a lot of things. She should write a book on self motivation instead. She's not right about everything in her book. It makes me a bit up set because she has a PhD and teaches at Harvard. She not right about the people she peaks of in this book. Not only that she wrote the "Myth of Sanity" which is a major BITE off of Hervey Clecky's "Mask of Sanity". The nerve people have?

Your MIL has issues. Men can be dependent on their mothers. Co-dependents are usually less obvious than the psychopath. A 'CoP' FOOLED me for 25 years.

Stay Strong
Elizabeth E.

Thank you, we have already applied and recieved energy assistane,and are getting help out from local churches.

I do agree with you my husband is dependent on his mother.That is why I went for some counceling 6 months ago.I just could not understand why my husband is so dependent, won't cut the apron strings so to speak.The councelor said it is bacause my husband's mother has always been there in his life to pick up the pieces.He chooses to not let go and grow up completly from her.My MIL knows this and this has given her great power in our marriage like our marriage is with her too,not just between he and I.It is very frustrating!He makes progress then always goes back to mom like he has been trained to by her.BUT I do know even if this is how he was raised it is still his CHOICE!That is why at times I feel like and think he does not love me and the kids enough to "cut the apron strings".He fits the decription psycologists call a "Mommy's Boy".But he denies this and says his brothers are that way not him.The most deceptive thing of all is my MIL says that her son always holding on to her going back to take her by the hand so to speak is perfectly natural and she and my husband are not doing anything wrong,that it is me comming inbetween them.I mean from the outside it sure looks this way,but it is not.How do i show people the truth?This woman is good,she knows how to make her fairy tales and lies reality.I'm not buying it!!!!!!!!!
Thanks,
Allie

Hello Allie

It’s good to hear you are being given some help and financial support.

It looks like the only reason you have a problem with your MIL is because of your husband, so that is what needs to be addressed first.
Has he always clung to his mother since you met him or has he gravitated back to her more recently? Do you know if she really says the things he tells you or could he be telling you what he wants you to hear? Why would he tell you things that upset you, what does he get out of it? What reasons does he give for going back to her and what does he go for? Does he just spend time with her?

I don’t see what possible excuse a grown man and a father himself could have for putting his mother first before his family….regardless of his upbringing. As you rightly, say it’s his choice. What about your choices, what about your childrens' choices? If he is neglectful of your needs then that is irresponsible as well as immature.
Do you have direct contact with your MIL without him being there? Do you know if he is the cause of the problems between you and her? Do you know what he tells her about you, like he tells you about her? Have you considered that she may have a perception of you is created by him? It makes me wonder what he gets out of perpetuating this friction between you and her and why his is manipulating this situation. The fact that he blames others for the things he does is called projection.

The answer to that would be to speak to her without him around and find out what he has been telling her and tell her your feelings about what is going on. If you find that he has been supporting you when he is with her then that will show you that he is just dare I say it….selfish….and cruel for reporting unpleasant things that upset you. Would you ever tell him if your family had said unpleasant things about him? I doubt it, you would keep it to yourself so you didn’t hurt his feelings.

This situation is making you insecure as you feel he is neglecting your needs because he doesn’t love you enough. I don’t suppose he loves him mother more than you so this is a problem caused by him that he needs to rectify. It doesn’t sound as though you can expect him to take any responsibility for his actions so the only thing you can do about that is respect yourself if he can’t respect you. It must be like having another child rather than a partner.

Do you think to yourself that maybe he wants to leave your marriage and that is what is making your insecure? What is he providing for the family and not just finances?

I don’t think you will ever have a smooth relationship with your MIL while your husband is in the middle. Maybe the best you could hope for anyway is to keep your distance from her and let him do as he pleases.

Take care of yourself and your family as you are the one holding it together.

Regards
Jan

Thank you Jan.It is like having another child not a spouse.One of my sister and brother in laws told me that I am married to an adolesent,and his brother asked me over Christmas how was it being married to a kid.Why is my husband the screw up inmature one?not his brothers?As disfuntional as it is I think he doesn't want to hurt his mother or I so he doesn't choose sides.But I think he likes it to,two woman fighting over him so to speak.I think you are right he keeps telling me kiddingly that he will replace me with a new younger model.Well let me tell you no one would put up with him,he would have to treat them right!The councelor told e he looks for ways out of his responsabilities in his marriage and family.And his mom always makes excuses for him and blames others not him.

He has always been tied some what ti his mother.His mother is basocally a trouble maker that does not like her son and I together and wanted him with her and he chose me over her.But now look what I get!He's no good for a marriage he is gfor a mother and son relashonship!His mother has told me he married and had kids too early at 22yrs.that is why he is this way.I said he is in his 30's now he has had plenty of time to grow up.What a dishonest woman she wants him to be tied to her for her needs.Shae talks out of bothside of her mouth!But I know she can;t make him do antthing he doesn't want to do.I think sometimes if he got counceling he could grow and change,but that would take a mature man to see he needed help!He basically is just a provider,at times he is good with me and the kids,but he puts everthing onto me.He says if he earns the money the other jobs are me.His mother basically had what I have in her marriage.You think she would be simpathetic,but she's not it's her son so she protects him!He is grown now not a kid you think she would stand on what is right,instesd of turning things against me when she knows it is her son.But I think she dousn't because she wants her son and herself blameless for eachother.He puts everthing onto me in our marraige and family,then his mother puts everthing onto him because of her similar marriage and family with his Dad,then has no empathy for me.He and his mother are alike they blame others all the time.And the both of them blame me not themselves.It is always someone else that blames others never them.It is like my MIL wants her son to just like her.
Thanks for lisenting to me vent!
Allie

he has always been tied to his mother.from the very beggining of our relashonship his mother was jelous.She would do what she could to get his attention,to get it off of me.Then she would bad mouth me so he wouldn't want to see me again.So he would give her attention when she would try and get it,so he would not hurt her feelings.And when he did not meet her need for attention she would get upset either anger or victim and even cry to him.

Lately she said to me in front of her friend that she use to get nice crads from her son until he was with me,her friend said nothing.She hints in front of others that her son talks to her and always has and use to spend time with her.But my husband said he would go upstairs to get away from her when he lived with her,and he could see why his brother moved upsatirs befor he did to get away from her.It was an add on room detached from the house.She also hints to others he does not want to be married to me and with children,becuase of the responsability.BUT by some meraculous reason of course he wants the reponsability of his mother is what she hints infront of others.I think it is wishful thinking on her part.Why would he go from me and our kids to her willingly or by default of her sabbotage.What is she thinking if he were not with me,he would not be with her.I guess that is what she is really trying to convence others of that her son is better off with her than me.That is bull crap she was destroying her son before he was even with me.she has made comments that if i lived her son i would let go of him.but she is his mother amd that relashonship will always be.
Allie

Hi Allie

I understand your need to vent, you are part of an eternal triangle. The only way to stop this is to remove yourself. You are allowing them to play the game all the time you are involved, without you there is no game and your husband can do what he needs to do. I can’t quite understand the set up of your living situation and why you are all so intertwined. It sounds as though you both spend a lot of time with MIL, is there any reason for that? Why do so many people around get involved with your lives?

I have to say if I was in the position I would TELL him to go back to his mother and be a little boy. Whether or not he wants to grow up he has the responsibility of a family and he should share it equally with you. If he can’t do that then he is just a burden for you. It’s not a healthy relationship when one partner is totally dissatisfied like you are and even worse if he is not satisfied either. What is in this relationship for you?

It’s a pathetic excuse for him to say blame his upbringing for how he behaves now, his brothers are from the same family but they were just stronger and didn’t become a victim. It’s the same for every human prey and victim scenario. A person can only be a victim as long as they allow it and are co-dependent. Counselling is only as good as the ‘victims’ will to change so if he went into it he needs the right attitude first and work towards that intention.

Maybe it’s time to let him go? Or tell you MIL she is welcome to him and you will be happy if he is happy being with her? You are the strong one in this relationship and it shouldn’t be a competition between two women. Ultimatum time? If he thinks you are serious……and I would be…..he may make an effort but if he doesn’t then you know he’s not that bothered about his marriage and family.
If they are being deliberately difficult to wind you up then saying it would make you all happy if he went back home to her might change her tactics. Is she likely to do something to make you happy?

Whatever happens you need to keep well away from the game playing, leave that to the children….your husband and MIL…. as they seem to have plenty of time on their hands to indulge in it.
If you are out there living your own life to the full and spending time with your children they won’t be involved. I know money is tight for all of us but there are plenty of things you can do that don’t cost money.

Look after yourself as he won’t/can’t and isn’t a good role model for his children.
Lead by example, dump the baggage to free yourself of a burden?

That is true.I just need to live my life the way I should be a good roll model for my children and be happy with myself and kids.If my husband wants to leave me for his mother or another woman or to be singal again,then I will let him!Then I have no more involvement with his mother or his games or baggage or hers!

In answer to your question,the reason my MIL is so invoved in our lives is she alays has to know what is going on on our lives.She calls to talk for hours to my husband,has to visit often and finds out about us through other family members.I think becuase my husband never set that boundary with her as he seen no need.No matter how much I set them she did not have to respect them.When I would say anything he would confront her and she would of course deny it.He grew tired of trying he said it does no good.So of course she gets away with it as if she never has violated us or me personally.So this explains out prpblem with her.He should of kept it between us not tell her!
I have thought many times of leaving him.I know his mother would along with him make a mess for me!And so I just don't want to fight them!So I stay and try to make the best of it.But now it's going to be just about me and the kids,even though it will be hard with the burden of him it's true.
The only time he ever made the kids something to eat or did the dishes is when I had worked.I do not know if it would be any different if I did go to work.His mother has too much influence on him and the family.She use to tell him where i needed to work so he would make me change jobs to something I would not want or would not be good at.SHE has to much say because he let's her it is sickening!I truly see now that I am married to a child,who will never grow up!

Hi Allie

It looks as though if you relieve yourself of your husband's problems then your other major problem would also go away.

We all have the right to being in the comfort of our homes without intrusion. If your husband is so keen to spend time with his mother couldn't he move back home with her? He doesn't sound like a good role model for your children either. If they model his ways you will have even more trouble in years to come with being used and abused.

If he does stay in your home and continues to live his life with no concern for his family then the only thing you can do is learn to block him and your MIL out of your mind. Let them play their games but it will be very hard not to rise to the bait. They need to be treated as two wayward kids who want attention.

It really is up to you how you handle them as it's doubtful either of them will ever change. Set firm limits for what you will and won't accept, communicate it to them both and have consequences if they don't respect you. An easy start is if he doesn't help with the dishes don't cook for him, once he has been told and doesn't comply then he knows the consequences. If he knows and still does it then he has made a choice to disrespect your wishes and should expect the same in return.

I know you will be concerned what people will think of you but that's their problem not yours. If in your own mind you are right...then you are! Why have so many people who are hanging around waiting to criticise you, leave them gossip amongst themselves if they have nothing better to to.

If they were worth anything they would support you.

Best of luck and we will cheer you on to stand up to the bully tactics. Don't let them make you a victim any longer.

Regards
Jan

It probably would not be a good idea to communicate my limits to my MIL,she will deny it and may even use it to cause problems.She plays mind games like it is part of who she is.
She is always after me as a mother and after me by being over protective of her son and herself.She loves to try and get my goat and is very negative always speaking negatives on me.She is very manipulative of others,I just don't know how to deal with it.Ordinarilly I would rid myself completely of someone like this to be around healthy people.Basically this woman has it out for me and will never stop it is like she is trying to break me.And is setting things up in the back ground to coordinate with her manipulation of me.Like you said it is hard not to always rise to the bait.M
Are there any common boundaries I could put in place,personally and in my marriage that I may not be thinking of.Thank you,
Allie I am currently trying to loose weight by exercising beause I am very overweight.My MIL is always making comments about weight and uses that to try break up us up,run me down and upset my husband with it always mentioning it so he will leave me being tired of me not loosing it.

Hi Allie

That’s not how setting limits works. Your MIL cannot deny the fact you state what you will and won’t accept, that would be like denying what you like and don’t like.
It’s a matter of communicating your wishes and limits to those who don’t respect them. It can be simple things like asking people not to phone between 6 and 8pm as that is the time you have dinner and spend time as a family. The consequence if MIL phones then is it won’t be answered, after warning her that will happen.
You can even take it further by telling her the times she can phone, then that puts you in control.

That may not be the best example but you will get the idea about putting yourself in control as I said yesterday, if your husband doesn’t do the dishes on Wednesday, he cooks his own meal on Thursday. That way even if he still doesn’t wash the dishes he has paid the consequence.
We always advise people dealing with psychopaths to have NO contact, not that I’m saying your MIL is a psychopath but if she is a manipulator then that is the only way to deal with her. How you achieve this in your case may be to learn to not be involved with her in any way, even if she is in the same room to feel she isn’t anything more than a piece of talking furniture. If she says things that upset you then she has won that game and has controlled you. It’s getting into the frame of mind that she doesn’t exist as a person so anything she says is just noise.

Good luck on losing weight but it should be done because you want to do it to make yourself happy, not for anyone else. That is mean and nasty to use something against you that she knows you are unhappy about.
Can I ask how come you get so close to her to hear her say these things…..or is it your husband she tells you? You seem to spend a lot of time in her company so maybe that is the first limit or boundary to set…..

Limits are what you want, to make you comfortable and anyone who doesn’t respect that is at fault. It’s taking charge of your own needs and your family needs. You sound like such a gentle, accepting person but you are not happy about what people are doing to you so I do hope you can stand up for yourself.

The reason your husband and MIL take advantage of you is because you allow it, she doesn’t get away with it with other family members so is it possible to speak to then about how they deal with her? Are you able to recruit them on your side?

I am getting some information from a womens abuse group about setting personal limits or boundaries so I will post that as soon as I have it. A lot of women who go to the support group have been abused because they couldn’t stand up to a bullying abuser and have to learn how to look after themselves.
There may be something like that where you live, if so I would urge you to go.

Regards
Jan

Thanks.

I will look into some kind of support group in my area and see what I can find.My husband has temperary work for now so that's good news for us.

As far as others in the family supporting me with how to set boundaries,I know my brother in laws will not.I have three sister in laws and one of them I do not really talk to except on facebook,she lives on the east coast.One of my SIL's when she was engaged to one on my BIL's said to me that my MIL has bounary problems and issues and said no more to me about it.She set her boundaries with our MIL a few years back,and now she does not want to hear about it.I guess since she set her boundaries with MIL and has no problems because she did,she care less about mine.I do know that over Christmas MIL told my husband and I that you cannot say anything to that particular SIL,I guess that is a boundary she set with MIL and I can see why.My third SIL has told me she and my BIL do not have problems like we have,that her husband believes in setting boundaries with his mother.I just have a BIG mess for not setting them!I am just a easier target than these woman.According to my husband and MIL my SIL's control their husbands.My husband is a male chauvinist and immature.I think this may be a reason my MIL is able to maintain some kind of control of her son and in his life which includes me and my kids.She has to acknowlede my SIL's as people not me.When we lived closer we use to have more contact than now,I hope it stays that way!

As far as the comments about weight,my MIL takes any opportunity to bring up the subject.When she visits or we have to visit her,she always has.I do now want to loose my weight for me now.My Dad and I knew my MIL for six years before I married her son.So I was told she knew things about me so that caused problems for me from the get go.I so badly want to be able to set limits for me and my kids and not be caught up in it all.
Thank you again,
Allie

Hi Allie

That's good news your husband has some work.

I wonder why you say you "HAVE to visit" your MIL? That could be the first boundary to set.....you don't visit her. If your husband wants to go then that's up to him. You don't even have to give a reason. Why should you have to put up with being insulted? The next boundary may be to TELL your MIL when she can visit your home and the consequence if she comes at another time then you just go out. You could do that anyway even if she has a pre-arranged visit. Leave your husband and her without a victim to upset.

Best of luck and I do hope we can give you the confidence to stand up to the people who are causing you problems by THEIR behaviour.

Regards
Jan

Hi Jan,
I have not looked locally for a support group yet,but have found a few online.My new problem with my MIL is a tricky one but one I can see I need to work out some how.I do know that she projects onto me,I looked that psychological term up on an online psyc dictionary.I believe my MIL is aware that I know this now and has found a new way to play her game,which I no longer want to part of in getting trapped in.For my birthday she sent in the mail a gift,which is a little plaque that has a little prayer for a mom.It says "Lord in caring for those you've sent into my life let me help them grow in body,mind and spirit and develop gifts you have given them(this part is okay,all mothers would like that)but the last part says "Help me to embrace not clutch support.Not suffocate and correct without crushing.Help me to help them find their way to you."
This is her
way of projecting her dysfunction with her son(my husband)onto me,to say that is what kind of mother I am who smothers her kids and uses them as a crutch etc.And it is a game to see if I receive this because it is in the form of a gift.What I expect is her to ask me or my husband how I liked my gift,it can't be just receiving a thank you from me it has to a manipulation strategy to trap me what ever I say.I was thinking that she wants to trap me by saying something like yes I like it,then in turn that must mean I received it and admit I am like this mom it describes.Or if I get upset it means she hit a nerve and it is true of me,and I think she is playing this game because what she wants is to not face reality of herself being this kind of mother and trying to project this onto me.Also I thing she would tell others friends&family of what I said in response to her birthday gift to me,to put thoughts into their heads that I am this kind of mom to get it off of herself so they don't see it.I think that in my MIL's mind if she suspects I know that she projects onto me,that it must be the truth of me because I fall for it when I know better.Like the saying if someone violates you the first time it is them the second time they do it it is yourself.She openly admitted this,that if someone does something to you, you don't like and you react they will just keep doing it to you.I should probably say that this is not a new problem but I am asking now how to deal with it.This is my problem with my MIL for years.
This is really sick,I should not even have to worry about this.My MIL plays psychological defense mechanism games and is a sick person.Any advice on how to deal with this?
Thanks,
Allie

Hi Allie

It’s good you are looking for support groups but I really think you would benefit most by finding a group you can visit and interact with. I think you will see the difference immediately. I am still waiting for the information from a source to help women like yourself who need coping strategies dealing with the sort of abuse you receive from your MIL.

Don’t forget she can only play games with you if you join in. I think of it as though someone throws a ball to you but you don’t want to play ball. You tell that person you don’t want to play and if they do throw the ball to you then you are not going to catch. If you don’t catch it and it falls to the floor and you turn and walk away then they are left having to decide whether to go and pick it up or leave it on the floor. By the time they have decided you are long gone. It’s pointless trying to throw it to you again because you are not there.

If I were you I would stop getting in range of this woman so she can’t see you to throw a ball to. If you ever do get in range of her…let the ball/insult/hurtful comment or whatever fall to the floor. Is she going to go over and pick it up and throw it again? If she does and it falls to the floor each time she is going to look pretty stupid. Can you try to think of everything she says is a ball? Just a ball of bouncy rubber with nothing inside it? Mental images help you see intangible words or actions as a toy someone is playing with.

This woman seems to spend so much time in your company and in your mind, if she won’t leave your space then can you leave hers? Does she visit your home that much? If so tell her when you are prepared for her to visit, it’s your home and it’s your right to let her know what you will and won’t accept. Your husband doesn’t appear able to make decisions so you may have to take that role. Do you visit her home, if so why? You do not have a duty to do so, your husband can if he wants.

As for the gift, could you use it as an opportunity to project back on to the MIL? Perhaps thank her for such a thoughtful gift and ‘you understand the significance and accept her apology and will take is as a constant reminder not to make the mistakes she has, you appreciate her offering her experience of making mistakes’. Turn it around and use it in whatever way you can and choose to see the meaning of it that suits you to be in control. Thanking her for it doesn’t mean insincerity if you see it as thanks for giving you a clear picture of the way her mind works. You can always chuck it in the bin or display it in the WC.
It’s a trivial piece of junk which tells you what goes on in her head… when you thank her…in your mind thank her for proving to you she is who she is. You could always try sarcasm and tell her you don’t feel worthy of such a gift and it is more appropriate for her to keep it at her home where she can enjoy it, then when you feel you have earned it you would be delighted to have it.

I do wonder why you allow her to eat away at you, she is not worth it. It doesn’t matter a jot what anyone else thinks. You might be quite surprised if you stood up to her, others might support you. It could be they don’t do it now because they haven’t had the opportunity because you don’t seem to want to. Do the rest of the family realise you have had enough of her?
She treats you the way she does because you are standing waiting to catch the ball every time she throws it and you play her game by catching it and throwing it back.

Best of luck building your defences, look after yourself if others don’t.

Regards
Jan

by projecting back onto her isn't this catching the ball and playing her game?Why can't people see who she really is?If they did this would stop.I am just going to ignore her if she asks if I like the gift,and if I can't I will think of something like what you said.I will set my boundaries with her when she does visit,which she will in spring and several times during the summer.I just can't care to coordinate the front with my husband anymore,which is what she is looking for and seeing it as a sign of weakness in my marriage.I am important and matter to myself not her,I will just leave her to it.I have to visit on holidays I do not have a choice with my husband,but I will try to get out of it if I can.
Thanks,
Allie

Hi Allie, what other conditions have you explored regarding your MIL? Have you checked out Borderline Personality Disorder? www.bpd.com

Di

I know about BPD,my mother has it.I do not suspect my MIL of it.Do you think from what I have said I should look into it?
Allie

Hi Allie, it might not be a bad idea to check into it again. I am not suggesting you are wrong, just throwing something out that struck me when I was reading your posts. BPD's have many spectrums or so it appears, they ae even rarely but still treated. I don't buy the treatment part but it is a theory held by some experts. When you get a chance to look it up again, I'll read your posts over again. Naturally I am not offering a diagnosis just some ideas. www.bpd.com Have you read their book "Walking on Eggshells?

Di

Hi Allie

Setting boundaries means acknowledging YOU have a choice whether you visit MIL or not. Where is it written in stone that you HAVE to go see someone who upsets you? It doesn’t matter whether she is a friend, relative or your own mother. You owe her nothing…..even the son she passed on to you? She owes you for taking him!

By being in her company you put yourself in front of her like a standing target. Even if she visits your home it doesn’t mean you can’t go out when she is there. It’s your home…your rules and if she doesn’t like it then she can stay away.

Other people will not see what this woman is like, why should they? If she is not causing them a problem she probably has no effect on their lives. Unfortunately she seems to be your problem, as you say, she looks for weaknesses. Maybe your weakness IS the problem? Building barriers and boundaries will overcome any weaknesses. You seem reluctant to stand up for yourself and the children but what are the consequences if you do? What can she do to you? Have you thought through her reactions to your actions? You may be presuming she will behave in a certain way but that is because you feel the underdog….not because she really will do it. Bullies usually back down when someone stands up to them. She is only a woman as you are, she doesn’t have any authority over you or what you do and certainly only has the ability to cross your boundaries if you allow her to.

By thinking about her gift as representing her thought processes you have knowledge of how she thinks, so …..projecting back to her can be you throwing your ball at her, not catching the one she throws you. You take control of the situation. Imagine standing opposite her and picture her comments to you as that ball, if you put your hands out (show a reaction) when she makes a move to speak she will carry on and throw. If you turn away or leave your hands by your side, what she throws will fall to the floor and she will have to pick it up if she wants to throw it again. To protect yourself from that ball hitting you, turn around, walk away or just don’t get within range in the first place. It’s a matter of being in control of your reactions. If she doesn’t get a reaction from you she is not in control and she can’t get a reaction from you if you are not there.

Do you think you will ever change her or what she does? If the answer is ‘no’ then why try? It’s very noble of you to want to help someone become a better person but you haven’t got that power, She makes her own choices and so should you.
Time to stop being her victim? It is a choice you can make.

I am wondering if there is more to your problem with this woman that you have been able to write about, you may not even have recognised it yourself. Perhaps give your motives for being so involved with her some thought? Do you feel in any way that you deserve some punishment and this situation provides that? If so, why? As you say your mother has BPD, did she make you feel inadequate or to blame for something? Did your mother blame you for her problems whether verbally or by her actions?
Is there a chance that you hope that if you can’ mend’ your MIL, as a substitute for your own mother, you feel you have helped mend her too and then the past is put right?

This is where being in a group with other people will help you recognise things within yourself and the way you react, when they discuss the things they see in themselves. You will not be the only one facing these issues.
It will give you confidence in yourself to see others have dealt with the same issues and you can move on.

Take one step at a time.

Regards
Jan

Hi Jan,

This may sound silly,but my MIL can be very intimidating and a bully and for some reason I still become affraid of her or do not know what to say and become tongue twisted.She is almost threatening.She was going to be my step mother when I was a kid,but my Dad and her never married.So maybe that has some kind of impact on me, than if I never knew my MIL at all before I married.My Dad says this to me allot what you say and that I am looking for a mother figure in her,I do not want to though.My mother also like my Dad is ill with scitzophrenia but dysfunctional and a dependent adult unlike my Dad who is a functional scitzophrenic.So my mother was only able to take care of me with my Dad for a short time as a baby.

The weird thing is that my MIL goes around a says that all of her daughter in laws are like thier moms of course negative qualities.But MIL of course when I asked her if she was like her mom she said no.Funny how we have no control of who we model but she does.The dangerous thing is I am not like my mother and father in the ill since that they have,but other things we all can somewhat like our parents good or bad.so why I say dangerous is becuase my MIL can hold this over my head and say almost anything and think she is ammune,which I know she does.Like compairing me which I know is untrue the negative parenting of my father&mother.She talks badly to me about my SIL's mothers not fathers how stupid,controlling,or unfit,poor mother models they are.And how my SIL's learn this from them.So where does that leave me in my MIL's mind and behind my back?see what I mean dangerous,it could be anything she could be saying.The other DIL's she can't do this to like she does me,not fair.Probably because she was with my Dad not their Dads.

According to my husband his mother was abusive to him growing up.I say she still is.
my Mil gets to through her son,I do not know how to stop this.



The other problem is in the past when I have stood up to my MIL she runs to my husband and starts a problem playing victim than I HAVE TO APOLOGIZE not her.When I tell my husband what really happened or what did happen he says he does not want to get involved.It is like he just has to nmake peace with us and MIL wins!I really want this woman to go away because the the problem won't,I constaqntly have to be on my guard at all time with her.This is not normal for someone,so pschopath fits!MIL wants revenge against me my husband said I crossed her.I will try to look for a group but most I have found are bible study or alanon.MIL also makes it almost impossible to ignore her crap over christmas she was bad mouthing one of my SIL's like she wanted me to also,when I said nothing she got mad and asked me did I remember something several years ago about my SIL's poor mothering of her kids like I LOST my memory!My SIL has been a friend to me informing me of our MIL bad mouthing my mothering of my kids.Two faced!!
Thanks,
Allie Psychopath.s. sorry for the spelling

Hello Dianne,
I have read several books on BPD,and talked with my uncle(biological moms)brother about it.He has a masters degree in psychology but never went into counceling just human resources.

I know there are similarities in personality disorders,but I do not at all think my MIL is BPD.

Also BPD is very misunderstood.people who have this disorder are labeled like they are all the same.There is still research going on about this disorder,manipulation is supposed to be a characteristic but really is not,even though some can be like anyone else.

Now there are some individuals who have BPD who are to the "T" not controlling there symptoms whom describe the negative of the disorder.Or the extreme like the movie with Clint Eastwood "Play Misty For Me".

I have a friend who was diagnosed with BPD as a teenager,she had her ups and downs with it and now is doing great in college,working and has a bright future.Another example of someone who has BPD is Susanna Kaysen.The movie "Girl Interupted" with Angela Jolie and Winona Ryder.

My mother has mainly had problems with schizophrenia not BPD.With BPD it has been over eating,no goals,etc...not anything bad.
Thanks I would still like to hear from you,
Allie

was wondering if you were able to get that info on boundaries?
Thanks,Allie

Allie

I just found this site and it is so strange reading about your problems with your mother-in-law because my ML is almost exactly the same! I know people make mother-in-law jokes but this woman goes beyond! I have already started my own thread about her,asking for advice and the more I read,the more I am convinced she has also sexually abused her children and maybe now doing so to her grandson,who lives with her. We always described her as:
Very clever but also stupid
manipulative
Sexually strange
liar
vindictive
Both my ML and my sister-in-law (who live together with the 10 year old grandson) have drinking problems and talk about sex alot, very openly and make gestures in public.
They both also treat my husband like their partner, we don't even live in the same country as them but they call him with every little (and big) problem, drunk 'i love you' calls, they insist on being with him on both their and his birthdays(this only started after he married me). They call him at midnight on New years(we are an hour behind them), knowing he is at home having a romantic evening with me,but not just once and leave a message, they call and call until he speaks to them(one year he turned his phone off and woke up to discusting messages and emails from both of them).
When we do see them they do not even pretend to want to see me at all,they try everything they can to get him on their own.
Never once has ML agreed to babysit so we could have a night out and on my husbands birthday one year when we did pop out to get a take away(leaving her with her friend and my parents) she threw a huge tantrum and refused to sit at the table and eat. She sat on the couch and got very drunk and started an argument.

Strange indeed! Unfortunately,we now live in the same country as her so I am sure I am going to be forced to see even more of her.
I notice you have not posted for a while,please let us know how you are getting on as reading your experiences has helped me.