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#9330 - 02/24/10 12:32 PM Brother is anti social I need help
Chev Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/10
Posts: 2
My brother has always been different - we were both adopted at birth and from different families - he older than me. Right from the start he hated me - would say so often and do all sorts of things, including hurting the animals to get my mother to pay attention to him. He really used to tease me til I cried, break my toys, and as we got older he even planted drugs in my room to get my parents to think I was using!

He has abused drugs and alcohol for ever, he is now 42. He has done nothing with his life, one of his many ex girlfriends had to get a restraining order to keep him away from his only (we think) child! He once threatened to throw one of his girl friends off a building! He pushed me down the stairs, drives recklessley with me in his car ( dont get in it anymore). He once purposefully killed a bird while driving after I warned him that it was in the road and he should avoid it.

He has lived with my parents most of his life, being violent, breaking things, locking them in and out of the house, stealing from them. He has been arrested countless times for drunk driving and maybe other things I dont know about. WE have not had contact really for years and he does not know where I stay. He once took me to a crack house unexpectadly and left me in the car while he purchased what I think was crack ???!!! Not sure 0-) it was a little rock thing.

He has never held down a job and has physically attacked loads of people. My parents have both died recently - my mother from motor neuron disease \:\( and my dad from heart failure just recently. My brother was there when he died and I suspect was instrumental in bringing on the heart attack. ALthough we could not get an autopsy done as we had to get full family approval and my brother refused it. I was so upset at the time and since then (december 09) that I could not and still dont think properly about these things and should have insisted. My father has written my brother out of the will - I am not sure if he knows yet. On the day my father died, he called me and said - get here, Dad's dead. he refused to sign the death certificate from the paramedics so they had to wait an hour for me to get there as I live far from my Dads place.

WHen I arrived, my brother was drunk and unable to be spoken to, he sat poking my da with his crutch ( my brother broke his hip in a car accident ten years ago and has never had it fixed - he lives in pain mostly but refuses to seek proper medical care - he did get a pay out for the accident of R350000 but spent it all on parties and clothes in about 6 months. He also lent me R5000) However, back to the story, my dad was lying, deceased on the bed and my brother was saying get up you ***er - you cant be dead.

My brother did say at the time that he felt that my dad would not have died had he not been fighting with him (which is guilt? does this show empathy? Does this mean he does not have anti social PD?) Anyway when the coroner arrived, he freaked out would noy let them touch him etc etc. Eventually managed to get that done and as they loaded my dads bosy, nmy brother noticed that the one guy has a missing thumb and he starts joking abuot it as he also has a missing fingure ( he got it shot off in a bar playing william tell with beer glasses).

WHen all the people had left and it was just my brother and me, he cheered up a lot and started talking about how it was just him and me now! I am terrified of him!!!!! He constantly calls me with weird lies and stories about what he is doing - he stayed on at my dads place, and almost immediately made my dads cat stay out of my dads room, changed her food to cheap rubbish and threw out her kitty box (she was mostly an indoor cat) he refused to let my cousin take the cat and eventually I took the cat - she is ok now but hates my cats! \:\) however, he alsp kept my dads false teeth. They where next to his bed. WHen I moved out some stuff I asked him what we should do with them and he said he wanted to make a 3D picture with them! He laughed but was serious if you know what I mean. Because my dad left him nothig I wanted him to have my dads car (which he already smashed) and some stuff. He keeps phoning the bank about my dads money and calling me about what to do with it - he says he has the bank on the phone and so on. I know its all a game and that I am his next victim. However, I do not know how to deal with it/ it sucks me dry of all my energy and I constantly think about him 24/7. Its got so bad I cant sleep! I need some support as no-one understands.

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#9331 - 02/24/10 08:48 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Chev]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi Chev, welcome to the forum. I am giving your post some thought and will answer in the morning.

Di

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#9333 - 02/25/10 04:04 AM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Chev]
Jan
Unregistered


Hello Chev

I hope we can offer you the support you obviously need. Your situation sounds extremely worrying and Iím not surprised you are concerned for your safety. Itís sad that you have lost your parents and now you have to go through these problems without their support. Your father must have been fully aware that if he left your brother anything in his will he would have used it and wasted it on drugs and alcohol which would have enabled him to carry on doing it. Although he will probably do it anyway.

Can you tell us more about your brother when he was growing up? What was he like before he started using drugs? Do you know anything about his biological parents? He may have suffered problems even before he was born if his mother was exposed to toxins while she was pregnant- toxins such as alcohol.
There is often sibling rivalry but your brother does sound worse than most. Do you have any other brothers, sisters or family members you can rely on to support you?

As you will realise no-one on the forum can give any sort of diagnosis but we can help you find information to help you work out what is wrong with your brother. What we usually tell members is to have no contact with people like him because of the trauma they cause. Even though he is your brother it doesnít mean you have to have anything to do with him if he causes so much damage. He sounds very callous and maybe even a little out of touch with reality. He may have a range of disorders that make him behave like he does but unless he gets a diagnosis of something he will not get help if there is something that can be done for him.
Often people with personality disorders only get assessed when they get caught for criminal activities or in child custody battles.

If there is an injunction in place to keep away from the mother of his child he must have a record of some kind. It might be possible for you to get an injunction to keep him from contacting you if you are afraid of him. Often the injunction means not even phone calls can be made or the person can within a certain distance of your home.


Now you have found our forum you will find everyone here understands what you are going through and that someone not only invades your life but also your mind. Sometimes just writing about your problems helps you see them differently and look for a solution and many times just letting go of the anger and frustration give a little relief.
If you feel you can then if you tell us more about the background to your story then we can listen and offer support. Is there an outcome you hope to achieve?

Regards
Jan

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#9335 - 02/25/10 06:20 AM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: ]
Chev Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/10
Posts: 2
Hi Jan

Thanks for th ereply, it is really nice to have someone to talk to because other people simply dont get it.

History is as follows:
I know that once he passed out / fell asleep when he was young - possibly about 4. He also had a near drowning incident when he was young, but from what I understand, he literally fell into the pool and my dad grabbed him out. My father once mentioned that my mother had shaken my brother whilst he was young - I have read that this sometimes causes brain damage, but to be honest I have no idea of what happened, so its hard to say. He always struggled at school and was often moaned about by his teachers as being disruptive at school, and very naughty. He never really wanted to do well or please anyone, and was always fooling around, causing havoc, messing up family meals etc. He has a speach problem, stuttering and attended some therapy for it, but not for very long.

He was also considered to be a possible dyslexic, but this really was never proven and he seems to cope well today with reading etc. He hung around with the naughtiest kids and was always in trouble. He started stealing money from my mom early on. Once he put salt in her bed because she punished him. He enjoyed putting a sock over the cats head and laughing while she tried to get it off. He has always liked animals and had them around, but enjoys scaring them, is very physical in his discipline of animals and ready to lash out at them. At my dads 80th he hit my dog on the head when she was sniffinf around the food, so hard she cried out. When I told him off, he told me to F*** off and just leave. As a child he set a fire to my neighbours yard with their child (they are still friends) but then I also set fire to a veld (accidently!) when I was a kid!!! He never listened to my parents or considered any punishment serious. AS he got older, he would just ignore them of he wanted to. He was involved in a situation with friends sniffing a product called spray and cook (its like a non stick cooking spray), and one guy died. There was a rumour that my brother somehow was instrumental in his death - but I never got the full story.
He was also physically attacked by a teacher at school who broke his tooth - they same teacher eventually did it again to another student and was fired. He always had lots of girl friends, woman seem to like him alot, but they are often really "cheap" types (not to be offensive - but seem to be very free with their favours, drink a lot and take drugs. Our relationship was never good, he would often physically hurt me, trick me and think it was funny (once shooting me in the foot with his pellet gun) and often getting me into trouble - some of it WAS normal stuff, but he also did evel things, like killing off my pet fish, making me watch our hamsters fight, putting my per hamster into the fish tank ( he lived) and later threatening to kill my pet dog. THis dog I left with my parents when I moved out of home at 22 years because I could not live with my brother anymore.

He often threatened to kill her to my parents, and physically abused my father, and broke many things at their home. I think he started using drugs early on - about 12 to 13 and progressed into more hard stuff, although he never seems to suffer any physical ill affects, except once, when he had huge sores all over his body - these cleared up though. As a teenager, he had terrible acne and very bad posture as he was very tall early on about 6ft at 15 and he had to go to gym to strengthen his back. He did stick to this for many years and it seemed to give him something to do. He would often start arguments, it seemed he was always trying to get attention. He reminds me very much of my daughter sometimes - she is also an attention getter. However, there was something more in what he did, its hard to explain, but he seemed to really enjoy upsetting people. When he upset my mother, she would loose it and he would laugh. My daughter is rather prone to be sorry and try to make up when she upsets me. He was mad about motorbikes and always had one right from when he could (about 16) and had countless accidents. He stopped going to school at about 16 and never completed high school. He always lied about everything.

I mean everything. He lives a lie. It never ends. He went to do national service ( it was a legal requirement in those days in S Africa and he was in a special unit due to his spinal problems and so did not do much physical stuff, however he managed to get up to all sorts of really bad things in the army. He loved the army and looked forward to going back and doing his camps - he became and army driver. During this time, things where a little better between us, and I think he really missed home. However, shortly after this, he decided he met a clubbing crowd, all older gay men, and he started wearing make up and hanging out at the clubs. I remember asking him if he was gay ( i thought perhaps he was and this would explain why he found it hard to fit in) but he said no, he was just making them think that he was. It was a weird time indeed! He seemed to get worse as he got older, being fired from many jobs for not attending work, stabbing the tea lady (not fatally), stealing company money, attacking people etc. He had a dog once that was shot dead during some kind of fight, and he often had animals that he would allow to breed, not look after well etc.

I must point out that we come from a family that is VERY loving towards animals and really looks out for them, so this was abnormal for us, even though for some people it is ok. If I do the Hare test on his personality he scores 37, but of course, this is what I think and see, not what he may be feeling. However, he is beyond anything within normal ranges. He does not care for anyone. He is very arrogant and very cunning (but not really clever if you know what I mean) he has to be one of the sneakiest people I have EVER MET! He cannot have long term relationships with anyone, they all get rid of him because he steals, lies, lives off people etc. He had no worries about locking my 80 year old dad out of the house, at night, whilst my paralysed mother lay in bed. He seems not to care about what he makes other people feel or think and he does find physical pain in others very funny! He has fooled many people into thinking that he had just had a hard life, bad luck etc, and just needs a break and then he rips you off and lies about it to the end. He has NEVER admitted a lie, even when caught out, he just changes the subject and moves on!!
It is impossible to deal with because you never know what is coming next! He will pretend that he cares about you, like promising to llok after you and sometimes even coming to help you out, say if you get stuck or something, but then will almost kidnap you for the day, driving recklessly and scaring you and laughing about it all the time. He will shout at kids to put seatbelts on and then drive like a mad man. Once he asked me out to breakfast, and really wanted to impress me and I went along and he took me to a bar and we had an ok breakfast, and he started drinking and then we spent the whole day there and he would NOT leave. Once he helped me out and lent me money. Once he took me driving to help with work and sort of behaved. IN fact he was very sweet. I hoped he may be getting better, but he promptly took money I gave him to pay for my car repairs and stole it, then told my dad I could not pay my bill and took his money too!!!!! Now that my dad has passed and left me money, he os phoning banks, lying to me about things, trying to get his hands on the money I reckon.
I will write of more childhood things if you like, but need time to remember them!
lots of love
Mandy

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#9337 - 02/26/10 03:30 AM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Chev]
Jan
Unregistered


Hi Chev

I am more than happy to talk to you, I know just what itís like when you can clearly see things others donít. It seems that no-one can understand that there is a serious problem and you canít get support from the people you know.

You brotherís history is interesting. You say he passed out/fell asleep when he was very young, do you know if this was usual or just a one off occurrence? I suppose you were very young at the time and can only go on what you have been told. Now your parents are no longer around I donít suppose you have anyone else who can tell you what was happening at that time.

I wonder if your mother shook him out of desperation and anger with his behaviour? Maybe she was suffering from stress and found it difficult to cope with a child like him. Children can suffer brain damage from being shaken but it makes me question which came first, your botherís bad behaviour that caused your mother to be angry with him or the shaking that caused his problems. If your mother didnít react like that with you maybe he pushed her too far.

From the behaviours you describe I can relate them to my own experience of my partnerís kid, apart from the stuttering speech. He would pretend to not even understand the alphabet rather than look a word up in a dictionary and a lot of his failure at school was by choice. Maybe your brotherís dyslexia was a similar problem? When you mention him copying gay friends that sounds so much like when psychopaths mirror other peoplesí behaviour. They copy and absorb what they see and behave in the same way when they need to perform. A lack of their own psyche? A way of fitting into a group to manipulate or just lack of a normal personality? ,

Your brotherís drink and drug problem must make the situation far worse because there is no way you can communicate with someone who is affected by them. There again I donít suppose your communications with him are good any time.

You seem to have studied Hareís checklist very thoroughly and from what you say about how you would score him, he does sound seriously on the scale. If he is psychopathic then there is nothing you can do to help him and everything you attempt will be at your emotional expense. Without a diagnosis you can only speculate. Knowledge is power so I would suggest you read everything you can on the subject. I donít know what your hopes are for an outcome for this situation but whatever you decide you will get support here.

Have you ever heard of the McDonald Triad? If you ĎGoogleí it you will find information that you may find of interest.

I would like to hear more about your story and I hope by writing, it will help you make some sort of sense of what has happened and how you feel you should deal with it.

I had to wince when I read that he took you out to breakfast and was ĎsweetíÖ.I know that one so well! The kid used to be the model child before he dropped the bomb. I learned NEVER to fall for him being nice, it was not genuine and was pure manipulation. It made my flesh crawl. It must be so difficult when that happens if you are hoping this is the breakthrough moment, that they realise they need to change, they are good inside. When it falls apart you slide further back down the hope scale and feel abused yet againÖand foolish for falling for itÖI have seen my partner do it and itís painful.

It would be very interesting if you know his birth parents and if he has any other siblings and the reason his mother couldnít take care of him.

He may be your brother but he has choices and if he decides to behave in a way that is bad for you then he should not infringe on your life. It will be hard for you to Ďset him freeí especially if you feel responsible for the people he will hurt. If you could cope with him you would have done so already and there are not many people who could hang on as long as you have done.

Maybe now is the time you feel ready to set yourself free?

Regards
Jan

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#9894 - 07/22/10 02:46 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Anonymous]
burntrose Offline
member

Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 2
Dear Chev:

You are not alone! I have a family member; a weird brother; he always gets away with things, but my mother hates ME. I am the one she singles out; and people have paid who have let her into their lives. My brother is a also a drug user, abuser; retraining orders;, etc. My mother lifts him up as though he is a little god, but I, who always loved my family, am the one who is targeted by both of them. They work in tandem. Family does not always mean blessing. It can mean a toxic waste dump that will destroy you. Anyone; in-law, nuclear family, that tears you down, or employs the help of others to do so, should be avoided. You know in your soul, because you are a good person, that something is wrong. AVOID him/them at all costs. Do not associate, and thank God for what you have everyday. You can't go wrong. I have fought nuclear family; (my mother for the most part, and many good men have paid)my father escaped in 1969. I was left with the aftermath (my mother--a psychopath). I am 51 years old now and I have to get on with my life. It can take THAT long to get out of a situation; you can actually gtow old; if you let the wrong people into your life. Take heed and dismiss anyone who causes you pain and sorrow. ("Let no one take you peace from you--Jesus Christ).

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#9985 - 09/05/10 04:54 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: burntrose]
twin Offline
member

Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 74
Hi All -

I'm new to this forum and appreciate all of the information that I've learned from reading the posts.

Where do I begin? The most immediate problem is this: Our mother (who is now 83 y/o) has been financially exploited and emotionally manipulated by our brother for as long as I can remember. She has enabled him over the years and is unable or unwilling to see his pathology or the need for him to get professional help.

As she has aged, her own enabling has taken more of an emotional toll on her. A few years ago, I noticed that she was having problems with depression. I took her to her doctor who asked her if she was still able to do the things that she enjoyed previously like walk at the mall, go to the library, etc. When she responded that she was not able to do those things any longer because she didn't have a car, the doctor asked her how long she hadn't been driving. She told the doctor that her son was using her car now and she couldn't always get it back from him. After the appointment one of the nurses took me aside and asked me "Who is (Blank)?" When I told her it was my brother, the nurse said that our mom is always talking about him and how he doesn't have enough money.

Our brother has lead a parasitic lifestyle. He often worked temporary jobs with the intention of collecting unemployment when those jobs ended or if a job was of full-time he would be fired and completely satisfied with collecting unemployment benefits for as long as he could. Over the years, he would explain his money problems to our mother who would give him money to help him make ends meet. When I confronted him that being financially responsible for an adult son at her age was too much pressure on her, he responded that it was her fault because he didn't ask for the money she offered it to him.

We've discovered him looking at pornography on her computer. He's also raised havoc in our family, stirring up trouble between people and then watching the events unfold with an almost ambivalent attitude.

My mother is in deep denial about his problems and his manipulations. He claimed that he needed the car to travel back and forth to work, but we've got friends who have seen him all over town in it at all hours of the day and night. When we talk to our mom about it she almost shuts down or says, "I've got to keep him employed." His place of part-time employment is only 2 miles from his apartment and directly on the bus route, but he claims that the buses aren't reliable which she buys.

About 6 months ago, our mother was hospitalized with a severe fracture. During her hospitalization, many of my siblings were visiting her daily and spending as much time as possible with her. He visited her only occasionally, but did manage to use her car without anyone's knowledge. And guess what, he crashed it. Had no money for the deductible. During this time, we found out that she had been paying his car insurance policy for years.

While our mom was recuperating at my house, he caught bed bugs. There is a strong possibility that he picked them up incidentally because there is an outbreak in our area, but there is also the possibility that he picked them up from an "asian massage parlor" that he's been known to visit. When we told him that he couldn't see our mom until he got the problem treated, his response was "You can't tell me what to do. It's my decision. I'll see her when and where I want to." Keep in mind, the near constant warnings on the news in our area talk about immediately utilizing a professional exterminator and nearly "quarantining" yourself because the bugs and their eggs can be dropped from infested clothing.

About a week ago, my mom despite our warnings allowed him into her condo. When I asked her, at first she denied it completely then she said she allowed him only into the building's lobby then she admitted that she let him into her kitchen. Honestly, I was furious at her and I yelled at her because of how she put herself at risk, as well as those of us who help care for her. When I confronted him about it, he said (predictably) she invited him so it wasn't his fault.

My sister's counselor suggested that we file a civil protection order against him, but we're all worried that it will turn our mother against us. When my sister told him after the incident when he went into our mom's condo that she'd file the protection order if he did it again, he said that she was threatening him and played the victim. This is a predictable pattern for him. He often escalates situations deliberately and when confrontations occur he is able to play the victim.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

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#9986 - 09/06/10 12:30 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi Twin,

Welcome to the forum. Your brother certainly has all the earmarks. I have known of other elderly people who became aware of what their child/adult was at an older age. The big difference is they had broken through the tough denial regarding their child. I am not asking where you are but here in the US we have Elder Abuse. My brother and his wife had to call them in due to her sister bullying the elderly father. My brother said he was very impressed by how quickly they took action.

The only person you can help or save in this situation is your mom, your sister's counselor is quite correct in what she is saying. I would however have some safety program so that any ruling is enforced. Quite often it takes the person being abused like your mom to be the one to call the authorities. It doesn't sound like she would do this when he comes around. No better victim that a Psychopath while they are themselves the victimizer.

A restraining order is only worth the paper it is written on if there isn't anyone to report your brother and his actions.

To help your mom escape would you and your siblings be able to have your mom stay with one of you for a couple of months each? Maybe the best thing that can be done for her at her age is to provide some peace and a stress free environment. As long as your brother is in the picture things may just get worse. Forget about him and focus on your mom. He probably doesn't see anything wrong with his actions.

I am wondering does your mother give him cash or checks?

I can only imagine your mother has had her heart broken by trying so hard to help your brother.
It is the trait of an abuser or Psychopath to isolate and control. It seems your brother is doing quite a job.

Please keep us posted of what you can find or help you can find that works for your situation. It helps others to read about your situation.

Di

How old or approximately how old is your brother?

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#9987 - 09/06/10 02:02 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Dianne E.]
twin Offline
member

Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 74
Thank you Diane. My brother is about 57 y/o. I'm not sure, but I think she gives him cash. My sister and I have talked about going to Adult Protective Services. We're in the information gathering phase right now. She just left my home recently and in a little less than a month he seems to have undone the progress that she made. She makes so many excuses for him that there are times when she is literally angry with us when we bring it up. I became so insulted by her attacks that I yelled at her.

My sister tried to give her a few books about how mental illness impacts the family and she got really angry at my sister. We know she carries a lot of embarrassment and shame about this. Recently, my husband tried to talk to her about how we're trying to protect her and she told him "(Blank) isn't a bother to me. He does help me." (He doesn't by the way. The only help he does give her is things that we've directed him to do. For instance, we've told him that if he uses her car he should not leave her with an empty gas tank. She pays her money to fill it.)

He's been this way throughout my entire upbringing. Any positive attention directed to another person would unleash an impulsive outburst or a calculated effort to urge others to "gang up" on that person for some imaginary reason. Holidays, birthdays, graduations, weddings, etc. have all been marred by some sort of argument or physical fight.

Further complicating matter is that he is undergoing treatment for cancer. Truthfully, when he is gone I know that I will feel a sense of relief. However, he's her son and she is devastated by this. We've recently helped him secure disability (my sister and I paid a friend of ours to help him fill out the paperwork to get it) with the thought that this would provide some relief for my mom. While he was in the process of securing it, he wasn't nothing short of a tyrant to the person who was helping him. He was insulting, passive-aggressive, difficult, lying, etc. When I confronted him on this because the person is a friend of mine, he glibly said "I apologized. What more do you want?" He's yet to say thank you to me or my sister. He actually acts quite entitled.

ugh.







Edited by twin (09/06/10 02:05 PM)

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#9988 - 09/07/10 01:54 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi, I don't mean to sound negative but do you have proof he has cancer?

A Psychopath is in the Personality Disorder Cluster and is not mental illness. One of the "features" is to divide and conquer. It seems he has had enough years to do a top rate job on your mother. I am only guessing but her resistance may be coming from him insisting that everyone is against him and only your mother can help save him from his other siblings. The best analogy is that it is almost like brain washing, he has himself so close to your mother for her to actually believe what he is telling her. Parents want to believe the best in their child/adult no matter how clear it might be to others. He might compare your life and his need to have a life like yours with spouses, cars, and houses and the list goes on claiming poor him. Your mother has been programmed to believe anything and everything she has been told.

I would like to say it is easy but as in therapy for example the person needing the therapy has to take the first step. Therapy is not recommended for a Psychopath but just as an example. That said it is only an example because a Psychopath doesn't see anything they are doing at the risk of your mother but as a sense of entitlement. There is no better Psychopath who is in fact victimizing others yet screaming he is the victim. A very twisted arrangement to say the least. It appears that since your mother doesn't want help it may or may not work to bring in some experts. Her mind seems pretty well set. I am guessing that he probably has any funds she has in a will going his direction? Keep in mind he has had full attention from your mother since he is such a dead beat living with her a great deal of time to spin some pretty good lies. Does your mother have any friends outside of him?

Just a guess but if you can only get her finances straightened out you will have accomplished a great deal. Will she come to visit you and your siblings for a week or so at a time? That would give you an opportunity to go deeper into her financial position to keep your brother from draining her completely. I am just guessing that to get her to admit what he is would be a hard path since he has the most access and influence. Probably the best to do is make sure she doesn't end up in the poor house due to him. Focusing on her future income is probably the best reality. He has her in his clutches and unless she has a problem with it she won't hear what you are trying to say. Keep in mind these are just my concerns and not in any way concrete ideas about what to do.

If I thought someone was on drugs or high on alcohol I would be concerned about what they might do to an innocent family or person. I would follow them and it wouldn't be too hard to catch them doing something illegal and report it to law enforcement, they would never know what hit them.

Di

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#9989 - 09/08/10 07:03 AM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Dianne E.]
twin Offline
member

Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 74
Dianne,

Thank you for your response. I've got a lot of ideas running through my head so forgive me if this post sounds disjointed.

A few of my siblings wondered if his cancer was a legitimate diagnosis as well. So my SIL took him to one of his appointments and it was confirmed. Initially, he was getting treatment at a "free" clinic about an hour away. This was terribly inconvenient for those who drove him and our concern was that he would be the only person with information. Thankfully, we persuaded him to get treatment at a local "free" clinic before the bed bug infestation. Had we not, I'm convinced none of us would have known and he would have infested our mother without anyone's knowledge.

With the bed bugs, we've felt like we're in a no win. When we intervened, he escalated and convinced our mom that "everyone is against me." Had we not intervened, I'm convinced he would have infested her home. Keep in mind, when my sister told him that he needed to get it treated so he didn't infest anyone his response was, "It's my choice when and where I see her." Even after he crashed my mom's car, he managed to convince her that he was the victim and that "the whole family is against me." You're right Dianne. He's brainwashed her enough to convince her that she's the only one who can protect him. The cancer diagnosis kind of seals the deal.

Yes, our mom has/had a lot of friends outside of him, but as his isolation tactics have increased she's not got the emotional energy to reach out to people.

Will she come and stay with any of us right now? Not with me. She's very mad at me for even bringing this up, for yelling at her, and for telling her that she was lying for him. (She was.) I'm not sure if she will stay with any of my other siblings. I think she feels like she has to be "on-call" for him.

One of the things that I've noticed is not that he openly violates boundaries. He slowly erodes them. He didn't steal her car. He slowly took it over. My husband and I offered to split the cost of a car for him with our mother so it would take some of the pressure off. He refused saying, "There will be conditions attached if they are involved." Translation: "If I use your car, I can just bulldoze you. No questions asked."

You mentioned about drugs and alcohol. I'm pretty sure he does not currently use. He was quite a drunk for years. When he got his first cancer diagnosis about 10 years ago (this current diagnosis is a recurrence), he quit drinking. Until recently, I don't think that he's had the money to buy drugs.

One of the things that I find most confusing is that he elicits feelings and thoughts from me like: hatred; ambivalence about his cancer; relief when he dies; etc. Wow.


Edited by twin (09/09/10 08:05 PM)

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#9990 - 09/08/10 09:45 AM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
Dianne E. Offline

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Personally I am not a therapist but I think it is part of the normal process in our minds during times like this; the trick is to get to our center and not let anger toward him harm your own life. I recently have been going through a nasty process with my mom's husband; even though he isn't a Psychopath I do find myself having wretched thoughts at times. I have to get in the present moment to not avoid but to process them. My brother is the only person I can express these thoughts to in order to put them into perspective. From what I have found is that pain drags us into areas that will only harm us in the end when I go into that deep hole of resentment. Trust me; some very awful things have passed through my mind and some of them were dozesí. We are on our own path and Psychopathís can suck the blood out of us if allowed.

I would guess that you mom doesnít have many friends to speak of.

Boundaries and Psychopath are not like a "normal" person would process boundaries. I suspect he has broken down every boundary your mother ever has had. The blame game is the victim game; no one can help him better than the actual victim being your mother.

If at all possible due to your motherís age it might help you, not him to eat some crow and stay away from any conversations about him and focus your attention to her. She is the one that is getting the sad and confused end of the deal. All of this is really beyond your control to try to change her. Your brother has control over her thoughts and actions. All a person can do in a situation like this is to remember the mother you love/loved with unconditional emotions. She should be the only one to concern yourself with. It will be hard even hearing what she says your brother is up to but if you make it about your love for her in the end you will feel better about your relationship in the end. It is 100% unlikely he will change. Your mother will continue to be in his web of evil and there is probably no hope there, look at your mother as a victim of a very evil person, that doesn't make her evil but probably a lonely person with poor boundaries and brain washed.

Fighting against him will only harm your mother who has her own belief system that this is what she should or has been told to do.

Just out of curiosity did the family member who took your brother to the clinic actually go in during the examination?

Throw your brother off his game by focusing on your mother. He enjoys the divide and conquer plan. If you were to only focus on your mother and her needs he will have less to say to confirm how everyone is against him. When/if she brings him up try as hard as you can to be positive/change the subject and to be neutral without encouraging his actions or conversations about him. His actions will only drive a bigger wedge with your mother, that is what your brother expects to happen. When other siblings are letting your brother get to him it is like handing him some ammunition to report to your mom about what he perceives about what unsupportive creeps you are. When you have to be around your brother alone like the trip to the clinic just have some standard replies like, oh gee that doesn't sound good or I am sorry it must be terrible to be in your situation, etc. stay away from calling him out on the creep and damage he is doing to your mom. He has done an excellent job of dividing your entire family with you elderly mom in the center, that is how evil works.

Di

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#9991 - 09/08/10 10:39 AM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Dianne E.]
twin Offline
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Yes the SIL (sister-in-law) went into the examination with him. She also helped him complete his paperwork for disability so she saw some of the actual current medical reports. Believe me, there were a few of my siblings who thought the same thing -- could he be manufacturing this diagnosis to get sympathy and gain control of my mom.

You are right that we need to focus on our mom. The situation with the bed bugs is one of those things in which sometimes you can do the right thing and it can still turn out terribly. We needed to stand up to him about the bed bugs because if he infested her home that would terrible for her and it would also jeopardize those of us who regularly care for her. I would risk bringing it back to my house and my sister would risk bringing it back to her house.

When I discovered the situation with the car and the money a few years ago, I discussed this with her and it didn't go well then either. I decided that I would do my best to support her and protect her without bringing up his name. The whole time I watched him slowly erode at her. My sister and I were the ones who took her to the pulmonologist and the cardiologist when she was having stress-related heart problems and breathing problems. It is very difficult to watch the effect of it on her. I've decided that he's a bulldozer, but he's a slow moving one. If he were fast or abrupt, it would be obvious that he were running her over. He's more gradual, but the damage is the same.

I try to see her as a victim of him. My sister and I were just talking about this. We don't expect her to be able to confront him or stand up to him. We just expect her to not attack us when we don't immediately fall for his cons immediately. That is the very hurtful part for us.

It's useless. He'll slowly destroy her. To offer her support gives me a front row seat to the destruction. To distance myself gives him more access to her.

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#9992 - 09/08/10 01:20 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi, it must very difficult to have to sit and watch his destruction. I agree, I think slowly they gather trust and present what they say has a ring of truth; they are masters at control and isolating others.

To have it be your mother must be horrible, she should be enjoying her life. Are any of her friends left that she used to have? I would guess he would be an active participant in getting rid of them; just his presence when they would visit would probably do it.

It is sad to have a front row seat. I can't imagine how difficult that must be. At a minimum it might defuse some of his lies. He is like a cult leader with one member. Not to be rude and you certainly don't have to answer, does your mom have any assets? Thinking out loud could a conservatory type person take charge of her expenses to not let him get every dime due to her health and age so he can't wipe her clean?

Do you for any reason think the heart/stress reaction is because deep down she knows the truth but is unable to deal with being deceived by someone she brought into this world? It is common for this to happen, a parent can be like a turtle when they sense trouble, ducking under their shell is safer and less to acknowledge.

By now I suspect he has her convinced he is the only one for her. Many times people just canít face the reality of someone, particularly their own child can be so callous and evil.

Di

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#9993 - 09/08/10 09:31 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Dianne E.]
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Thank you so much for your kind and compassionate response. I think that some of her stress is that at some level -- deep down -- she knows. The only thing that seemed to penetrate her denial was to point out to her in obvious terms that he took her car while she was in the hospital and yet rarely seemed to make it to visit her. And to point out that when she stayed with me for two months, he rarely called to check on her well-being. Why? He couldn't get anything from her.

My sister is a co-something on her bank account. I don't think that he'd completely empty her out. Instead, he nickle/dimes her to death. Meanwhile, another brother stopped by his apartment and spotted a check from another older lady for $100. He's always conning someone.

I've read more information about psychopathy and in particular it's genetic origins. I've wondered if he is some variant of autism or schizoid or schizotypal. None of that addresses his parasitic behavior, his arrogance, his refusal to accept responsibility, his pathological lying, his manipulations, his glib disregard for the impact of his behavior on anyone. The genetic origins of this scare the "bee-jesus" out of me given that I have children of my own. Every developmental mis-step they make sends me into a panic that "they may turn out just like him."

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#9995 - 09/09/10 01:56 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi Twin,

What a relief your sister has signing abilities for your mom. Does your sister give your mom money for things or does it come out of the joint account? I know here it can be set up so that both parties have to sign for a check, which would narrow the field a bit.

I would rest about your children. Just like a horrible car crash can happen we all know they happen but will it happen to us? Not likely.

Outside of the typical signs, which would be quite visible you probably don't have much to worry about. The conscience forms between 3 - 5. I can certainly understand why you would be concerned but perhaps sometimes we can see things that aren't really an issue based on information about some other person's behavior.

Do you remember when you started seeing your brother showing signs when you were children?

I feel a great deal of pain for your mother; it must be a horrible thing to think about her own child. All the dreams she must have had and hope for his future. Maybe now she just needs your understanding and compassion because I would be surprised if she ever expresses her doubts. They are probably so hidden inside herself that she herself would probably not have the ability to articulate them. This is just a guess but what would come of her admitting this about your brother, she might feel like a failure as a mother and add to her pain. I would just close any loop, ie. a will where he might benefit etc. and let him know he won't benefit by her not being there.

Parasites run off to find more victims so this woman's check doesn't sound odd. The less your brother thinks he can "get" from your mom the more invisible he will hopefully become. He was certainly able to keep himself busy with other victims while your mom was with you. He will move on when he knows the road is closed and unfortunately for others move onto new and fresh victims. That is all he knows to do. He will always be the victim in his eyes.

He can't be helped, your mother can with your love and compassion.

You are doing a wonderful thing to figure out why all this is happening, information is power. You will always know that you cared so much for your mother to let her live in peace and by being there for her in your own way.

Di

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#9996 - 09/09/10 08:45 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Dianne E.]
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You've helped me so much Dianne. Just to have validation is helpful. I'm a pretty centered person and his antics really set my head spinning at times.

My twin sister and I are the youngest of 8 children. He's been odd for as long as I can remember. My mom said he said that he had SEVERE separation anxiety with his entrance into elementary school. She still expresses frustration that he was pulled away from her daily for weeks if not months.

Our upbringing was pretty tumultuous. The police were frequently called to the house because of physical altercations between my brothers. Truthfully, they're all on the psychopathy spectrum (if there is such a thing) but he's the most severe. Two of my brothers are diagnosed with bi-polar disorder; another has struggled with alcoholism; but this brother is the one who we've referred to as the "pot stirrer." Even when he was in high school and my other siblings were getting summer jobs, he chose to work for a temporary agency and he'd turn down work if he "didn't feel like" working. He went into the military and I think that the secret hope of my parents was that it would straighten him out.

While in the military, he never advanced much past "private" despite being enlisted 9 years. By the way, he dropped out of the military less about 10 months shy of being able to collect a partial military pension. Why? He didn't want to be beholden to anyone. After he left the military, no one (not even my parents) heard from him for about 3 years. When my father was dying, he was spending money he didn't have on trips and vacations. When he died, he was furious that my mom wouldn't delay the funeral indefinitely until he arrived despite him having no money to pay for his airfare to return for the funeral. Throughout all of this, he drank excessively and used drugs. He has a quit date for drinking but never did any of the other work (12 step stuff) that comes along with real recovery.

I remember when my father died, he stirred up some drama despite him not being present throughout his 2 1/2 years of dementia. About 15 years ago, he had his first cancer diagnosis. My poor mother. Her honesty about his issues evaporated with that. I know that she was so fearful that he'd die that she completely collapsed her boundaries. He began living rent-free in her home and then complaining that she wasn't giving him "his space." Hello? That is because the entire space was her's.

I then remember that she started noticing that she was getting spam email messages of a sexual nature and we couldn't figure it out because we'd bought her anti-virus protection. I took her computer to "my computer guy" and he told me that there was porn all over her hard drive. I've got other family members who've caught him viewing porn at her house, but seem to be too intimidated to say anything to him.

My mom has treated him as if he is fragile and powerful all at the same time. He's got great control over her. I've been financially independent since I was 19 y/o. He's been mooching off of her for most of his 57 years.

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#9997 - 09/09/10 08:49 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
twin Offline
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The money comes out of a joint account. The entirety of the assets come from my mom for the account. I help my mom with incidental expenses and a cleaning person. My sister also pays for incidental expenses and also pays for her cell phone. Separate from he, she's a great human being. He's never seen her past his dysfunctional relationship with her.

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#9998 - 09/09/10 11:00 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi Twin, he lacks the capability to see anything outside of himself. Very self absorbed. If I have heard it once it has been a million times Psychopath's addiction or whatever toward porn. I have often wondered and maybe because they are not even real to him (actualy like everyone else, just objects). They don't seem to feel any shame when caught. Does he still use your mom's computer? If so there are some kind of locks that can be put onthe computer to block acess. Normally this is for children.

Since you never know what he might do I strongly suggest that you set up your mom's banking account so that it takes two signatures for the bank to give any funds. You never know what kind of sob story or pressure he will use to get what he wants.

It must be very hard on all of his siblings to deal with such a self serving monster.

Can you recall at what age you started noticing things that he was doing that didn't seem right?

It is great that you are using tools to shield your mother from his actions. This way she can have some years left that are conflict free.

I recently went through the death of my mother and I am so thankful that our "issues" were put to the side these last few years and the happy memories are good reminders. It isn't that I am not sad but I am at peace that we had the time we had together without any conflicts and learned more about each other and could laugh together.

Di

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#9999 - 09/10/10 09:38 AM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Dianne E.]
twin Offline
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I think that I've always known something was different about him. When I was little he seemed to have a good sense of humor, but he never really had a sense of direction or goals. He seems to have wandered aimlessly throughout life. I think that I knew something was "wrong" with him when I was about 12 and he was in his mid-20s. The military was somehow supposed to "fix" him although no one really acknowledged what was wrong. For years, people would hope "he'd grow up" or say "he's just immature." It never happened. At first I thought, "He doesn't need to "grow up." He needs treatment. He can get better if he'd get treatment." I think it is only in the last two years that I realized that treatment couldn't help him. This is a personality disorder.

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#10000 - 09/11/10 02:37 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
twin Offline
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I've been thinking about this on and off for days. Somehow we've got to figure out how to not to let the dysfunctional and destructive relationship between my brother and my mother destroy my relationship with my mom.

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#10001 - 09/11/10 10:50 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
Dianne E. Offline

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It is a great thing to think about. He could impact you for the rest of your life and your relationship with your mom in general. Please don't let him take that away from you.

You might think of ways to respond when you see him at your moms. Take the high road, he is just a snake slithering around and not worthy of your attention. That attention and energy needs to go toward your mom. If you have to let your mom think you don't find him disgusting and a crook, so be it as long your siblings have a tight string on the finances etc. By provoking him or taking his bait you will give him some nasty things to get your mom involved in. She knows deep down inside her heart. I know how hard that will be but I get the sense your and your families are very united to help your mom.

Many times it will be hard but without information and any anger from you where does he go from there? Your mom will see your smiling faces and people that care for her. Will it be easy to ignore your brothers nasty attitudes? I doubt it but it is one of those horrible things in life.

Circle the group around her with love and affection. Your brother is more than likely an expert at provoking incidents, just don't go there.

Di

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#10002 - 09/12/10 09:07 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Dianne E.]
twin Offline
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I agree with you 100 %. The most challenging part is that some of my "less evolved" siblings still fall for his drama and lies. You know how that is. Personally, I don't like drama. I avoid it. I've got other siblings and their spouses who really love the drama. I can't control that, but I wish that we were all on the same page. It would make this terribly awful situation a small bit easier. I'll let you know what happens.

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#10003 - 09/13/10 01:45 AM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
Dianne E. Offline

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Please do let me know how it works out. Is there any way possible to get through to these drama siblings? Are they close to your mom? I might remind them that they are adults and not children. If they would acknoledge to stay out of the conflicts will be the best for your mom and I hope they can help you in overlooking your brother's actions. That is what I am wondering if they can accept some logic knowing that doing otherwise puts your mother in a terrible situation at her age she doesn't need.

My brother is not a Psychopath but I had to eat a pile of crow to make my mother happy. My mother supported my decision to not deal with him in the beginning. But as she got older she wanted everyone to get along. I did it for her; I called him up, sent things etc. because I knew she would be asking if he heard from me etc. I only did it it for my mother and it worked, she passed away thinking everything was okay. If they love your mother they would cut out the conflict so her days at the end of life will be the best way to show her compassion, after all I hear in your posts she was a very good mother, why treat her rotten when it is only making her worse.

No one and I mean no one should be dragging an elderly person through the mud. Canít they do anything about joining together with solidarity to not torture an elderly person who is your mom? They are no better than your Psychopath brother by carrying on this way and emotionally abusing your mom. Abuse is abuse. I would hate to look back and think (obviously I didnít) that I had any part in making her life miserable and nerve wracking instead of the peace she rightfully deserves.

I have a thought I try use in life, which is any different the person who starts the conflict or the one who joins in.

Di

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#10004 - 09/13/10 01:08 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
Violet Offline
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Hello Twin,

Sounds like a real sticky situation. It also sounds like you are doing an excellent job trying to keep things as healthy as possible on your end. It is great that you have your sister who you are close with to discuss everything.

You wrote: I try to see her as a victim of him. That is true, and you are a victim of him as well. The wrath of a Psychopath spreads through many people. How sad that he has caused a wedge between you and your mother. I have issues with my own mother, somewhat related to yours, and I know how painful it is. You write of your sadness and concern for your mother, and I can't help but feel sad for you. You seem like such a caring and compassionate person, it must be hard carrying around so much worry.

You said it is very hurtful when your mother attacks you for not buying in to his cons. You seem like you are truly seeking peace, and want to let go of all the pain. I read that your sister is in counseling. Have you considered it yourself? If not, I so strongly recommend it. You don't have to be the one with "the problem" to benefit from counseling. It is often the families of "the problem" who need the counseling the most.

Carrying around all that pain and frustration is not good for you. Take care of yourself and let some of this out of your mind. Talking to the right person can really change your life. A good therapist will be able to tell you exactly how to deal with him, and exactly how to deal with your mother as far as her denial. You are correct to assume that she will never see things differently at her age. But YOU can see things a little differently, in a way that hopefully won't drain you of so much emotional energy.

It is great that you want to make the most of the time you have left with your mother. How wonderful that you are able to take such a tragic situation, and still stay centered enough to focus on what really matters. Diane is right in so many of the things that she has said. With your mother's age and health, it is so important to make the most of this time, and to continue to seek as healthy of a relationship with her as possible. It can get twisted quickly-when our heart breaks because we see our parents as victims, than our heart breaks again when the inevitable dysfunction causes our parents to hurt us.

While you are on your journey seeking understanding and peace, please be open to the option of counseling. There is a big stigma associated with therapy. It is commonly thought that therapy is for the person with "the problem". Sometimes therapy will work for that person, other times it may not. But what is underemphasized, in my opinion, is how important it is for the families, who are affected by these people, to seek validation and support. Not only to heal from the lifetime of pain that has accumulated, but also to gain knowledge in the best ways to protect yourself from future pain.

You also wrote: To offer her support gives me a front row seat to the destruction. To distance myself gives him more access to her.It seems that you can't figure out where to stand. Your love for you mother draws you near her. The horror of his presence, and how it affects her, repels you away. But then, when you are away, you are drawn back in because of your love and concern for her.

What I am trying to say is, you don't need to keep switching spots. It doesn't have to be at one end, or the other. There is a comfortable healthy spot in the middle. Let an experienced therapist help show you where that spot is.

You don't have to be so near the fire that you get burned as well, but you don't have to stand at the end of the road either, feeling bad that you are not trying to put out the fire. Think of a therapist as a trained firefighter. They can tell you how close you can stand, so that you don't get burned. They can tell you how to clear up some of the smoke, to see things more clearly. And they can tell you the quickest way to extinguish a fire, should one start again. They can help you learn how to decide when there is a dangerous fire, if it is worth fighting, or when it is best to stand back.

That was a very big analogy there, I guess I got a bit carried away! Dealing with intense emotions made me think of fire! I hope you got the point I was trying to make. You are a very strong person to witness this for so long, and through all the pain and frustration, you still hold your love for your mother as your focus. It takes a strong spirit to stay centered while seeking understanding, peace, and closure.

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#10005 - 09/15/10 06:17 AM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Violet]
twin Offline
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Thank you for your kind reply Violet. I've been in counseling on and off since my 20s . . . much of it to deal with my brothers who have varying degrees of personality disorder, mental illness and alcoholism. Right now, we're going to a support group for family members of the mentally ill which is helpful.

I like your analogy of the fire. Looking back, I've done that over the last two years especially since he first started taking over the car. Trying to be there for her and help her, but not get dragged into his drama and game-playing is a very challenging position to be in. Over the last few years I've taken her to cardiologist, pulmonologist, neurologist appointments for heavy breathing and tremors. The cardiologist and pulmonologist all said she was healthy given her age and asked about her stress level wondering if the symptoms were possibly panic or anxiety. The neurologist saying that some of her tremor was neurological, but a lot was stress.

I've reviewed the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. It is stunning how many characteristics he has.

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#10006 - 09/15/10 01:26 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
Violet Offline
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Hello Twin,

I understand exactly what you mean when you look at the Hare checklist. My child's father is a Psychopath, unofficially confirmed within the past few monthes.

The term Psychopath has kind of been used loosely. In casual conversation we think of a serial killer or some other real wack-job. It was through talking about him, with my therapist, that we first identified him as a narcissist. She speculated that he was most likely a Psychopath as well. Well that term didn't mean too much to me at the time. I knew that a Psychopath meant someone who was "crazy", and it made sense that she agreed he was nuts! It was through my own research, mostly online, that I was able to place him even further down the continuum- not just a narcissist, but a raging Psychopath! Not "kind of" a Psychopath, because I don't think there is such a thing.

When learning about psychopathy, it just described him exactly! It felt like I had just discovered something incredible....wow..."so this is the NAME for all of this"! Oh yes, it is so undeniable when placed on the Hare checklist, isn't it? My emotions related to this discovery, my unofficial, yet undeniable diagnosis for all of his madness:

First, relief..this is a real form of a personality disorder, real mental illness. I had shamed myself for years that I chose such "a loser" to be with. This man was no longer just an abusive a-hole, a drunk, a thug. He was now a Psychopath, and with that came SO much understanding. When I learned how his sick mind actually works, I felt relieved to an extent. I was relieved that he didn't treat me that way as a result of my actions. We didn't "bring out the worst in each other" as he always said. He had a very convincing way of twisting around his horrible behavior in to something that I really believed I deserved! When I was able to view myself as his victim, rather than his partner, I felt less responsible for all of the pain that came from my relationship with him. By understanding why I had been attracted to him, I was not so ashamed for "choosing" such a horrible person.

Next, I felt intense interest in the whole topic. My new knowledge of psychopathy explained so much about my relationship with him, it really helped define the volumes of pain I had buried. I was inspired to find out as much as possible about the entire topic. Now that I knew what his problem was, I hoped it would be so much easier to deal with him in regards to his (sketchy)relationship with our daughter. I read a few great books on the topic. And I read many, many posts on this forum. I took it all in, I applied it all to him, and it made sense.

Following that was the panic. The more I learned about psychopathy, and the more that I applied it to him, the more my mind raced with the "what-ifs". What if he really was going to slit my throat that time he held up the knife? What if he really was going to drag me out to the lake and drown me like he had threatened that night out at the beach? What if all these years of his nonsense really do accumulate until he snaps? What if he really did sleep with over 200 women before he met me, what if he wasn't exagerating?

After I applied all of these endless what ifs to myself, then I applied them to my daughter. What if he managed to break her heart as he had broke mine? What if he got violent with one of his girlfriends in front of her? What if she witnessed him treating another woman the way that he had treated me? What if he decided to end his life-long battle with the law and skip the country, with my daughter? What if she grew up attracted to a man like him? On and on the what ifs went. I had to make conscious efforts to turn off the what ifs in my head. It was really consuming my thoughts, until finally, I decided that I will not be afraid of this man any longer.

After I fully acknowledged all the danger I had been in, after I fully embraced all the horror of the truth, and all my fears for the future, I HAD to let it go. I could not let the fear consume my mind or my heart any longer. So after I finally realized that I had a choice to refuse this fear, I found strength. Strength to accept the truth, strength to understand it, and strength to believe that the goodness of people in general is stronger than the evil of a Psychopath. I found the strength to believe that the goodness, power, and divinity of the universe are on MY side. I found the strength to accept that it was in my destiny for me to have been with this man. I found the strength to realize- that even out of all the immense pain that this man had brought into my life, he also gave me my daughter. Without him, she would not be here. Without her, I don't know who I would be. So far that has been my conclusion, my closure of sorts, on this journey of understanding and healing.

I had intended to write specifically to you Twin, but I guess I got into my own testimony of sorts. I am not sure where you are at in your journey of understanding and acceptance, but maybe you are able to relate to one of the places that I have been on mine. It seems that Psychopath's leave similar trails of heartache and devastation behind them. Perhaps that is why it feels like we are recovering together on this forum.

I'm so glad to hear that your family is going to a support group. When I think back on the almost decade that I spent trying to handle it all on my own, it really saddens me. Therapy and support groups can't really do anything to change a Psychopath or their behavior at all. But they really do seem to help with the recovery of the Psychopath's victims. I can only imagine the web you are tangled in with the Psychopath, and your mother, and with six other siblings on top of that. It must be absolutely draining of your emotional energy to deal with it all. Hopefully the support group you are attending is able to provide you with some useful advice and helpful suggestions. And hopefully this forum will bring you the same validation and support that it has brought me.

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#10008 - 09/21/10 08:38 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Violet]
twin Offline
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Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 74
Hi -

I've got a few updates. I gave myself and my mom a little bit of a breather and did not see her for about 2 weeks. Given that she lived with me for over 2 months this was quite a change. It gave me (and her I suppose) an opportunity for some emotional distance which is allowing some of the more immediate wounds between us to heal a bit.

I consider my sister to be a miracle worker because she somehow persuaded our mom to attend the family support group meeting with her. To her credit, my mom attended. She didn't speak, but she seemed to listen quite intently. I'm doing my best to give my mom attention and help for her needs. On Friday, I'll be bringing some meals over and taking her to lunch. I'm back to my previous approach of not bringing up his name, but being aware of his influence on her well-being.

I recalled something that I wanted to share: One time my brother borrowed $30 from my mom. He paid it back, but at the rate of a $1 a week for over half a year. Can you imagine? What a mental screw job.

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#10013 - 09/22/10 10:35 AM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
Violet Offline
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Registered: 07/08/10
Posts: 105
Hello Twin,

Thank you for the update. It is great to hear that your mother was willing to attend the family support group meeting. Even though she didn't speak, her physical presence at the meeting was a huge step toward at least acknowledging that there is a problem! Even if she is not able to acknowledge the problem out loud with words, she must know it somewhere in her heart. Overcoming the denial in an unhealthy relationship is really the first step toward any emotional healing. Problems can not be worked on until they have been acknowledged. Her willingness to attend the meeting is such a big step in the right direction.

I hope you are able to celebrate what a huge step this is for her, especially at her age. Your previous posts showed so much concern for the emotional pain that your mother is enduring. Please realize how truly great this small step is for her. By actually acknowledging that there is a problem, she has opened the door for so much emotional healing and growth. This door may remain open for awhile...she may look at that open door for some time before she decides to walk through it and continue in the direction of healing.

Prepare yourself for the frustration that is inevitable while you wait for your mother to be ready for the next step in healing. She is facing a lifetime of denial and unhealthy rationalization, it will not be easy for her. But I do feel so encouraged for you that it is indeed possible.Yes, I agree, your sister may be a miracle worker. I do firmly believe that everybody has a purpose in this world. No doubt your sister serves as a tremendous guiding light in your family.

Yes time does heal some wounds. It sounds like the two week break was good for both of you. I can relate, to an extent, to the tension that you have with your mother. My mother coddles my adult autistic brother and is in denial of his full capabilities. It is a painful thing to watch. In so many ways. I pity her for all the pain she has lived with, how hard she has worked to give him the best life she possibly could, yet at the same time, I get so angered over how she has overcompensated to the point where it has completely drained her. Her motherly role has gone beyond being supportive to the point where it is now enabling. Enabling to the point where it has cut off his room for growth and potential to work and function independently as an adult.

So when I hit a dead end with my mother, in regards to my brother, or various other things, I also choose to just stay away for awhile. Sometimes there is only so much you can say to someone. When the person you are trying to get through to just refuses to accept or acknowledge what you are saying, it can be so frustrating. One persons denial combined with the other persons frustration can quickly result in painful words that only make the entire situation worse. There does come a point in time when you really do need to remove yourself from the situation and just take a breather. It sounds like you made the right call.

Good luck, and please let us know how things progress.

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#10024 - 09/25/10 08:41 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Violet]
twin Offline
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Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 74
I saw my mom on Friday after about a 2 1/2 week absence. I brought her about a week's worth of meals and took her to lunch. During lunch I noticed that she seemed down, but she wouldn't discuss it easily. As I was preparing to leave, my mom mentioned that this brother called her to ask if he could buy her car with a portion of his settlement from his disability. Mind you, my mom hasn't yet decided that she is no longer driving after her previous fall . . . but she is 83 y/o so her days of driving are limited. She said that my brother wants to buy her car but is "afraid everyone is going to be mad at him." I responded that given that perhaps the responsible thing to do would be to not buy the car, but of course he's convinced my mom that this is the only used Honda in the area. I told her that she ought to get the car appraised so she could get a fair price for it, but she said that she had a price in mind. (I'm pretty sure it is well below the car's worth.)

It was so hard not to be angry, but I managed to ask my mom what she wanted to do . . . she wasn't sure. I told her that I didn't think that it was necessarily a good idea given the history but that I knew it was her decision. I also told her that no matter what I wouldn't be angry with her because I knew that she was put in a terrible position. It was sad because she was crying saying that it was hard to have a son who was "not independent" which is as close as she has gotten to saying that something is wrong with him.

My mom isn't poor, but financially she shouldn't be selling a car that is worth $8000 for less than half of what it is worth so he can have it.

ugh.

The good news is that I handled this without displaying my anger. I tried really hard to see her as a victim rather than a co-conspirator.

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#10025 - 09/26/10 01:52 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
theatre Offline
member

Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 17
Your poor mother should not have to deal with this sort of thing at her age. Bless her and bless you for trying to deal with it all as best you can!
Well done for holding your anger and seeing her as the victim,as that is what she truly is. She sounds like a wonderful mother and at the end of the day, he is her son and it cannot be easy for her to see bad in any of her children.
I am so sad for you but you are handling it the best way I think.
Stay strong and keep in touch with us all.
Much love to you and yours.

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#10026 - 09/26/10 02:53 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Great for you Twin. I hate not be trusing of your brother but the money he borrowed and paid $1 at a time, did her borrow money during this pay-back process.

Maybe if you showed your mom the Kelly Blue Book which will list the car's worth. If your brother has any outstanding warrants and doesn't get it transferred immediately your mom could be liable, I am sure you have thought of that. My step dad has a dead beat daughter and she had the nerve to ask him for their car. It looks like he will now just include it in his estate. What nerve these people have, they can't even wait until someone has passed to get their greedy paws on things. Your mom's car should be an asset for all of the siblings not just him, imo.

Di

It is sad to hear your mom was crying, it seems that deep down she is more aware and very sad. Unless he has paperwork from his disability it is a shot in the dark if he will get it or not. Besides with his track record it would be spent on everything but his obligation to your mom.

Di

Just out of curiosity where does he live and how long has he lived there?

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#10028 - 09/27/10 08:31 AM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Dianne E.]
twin Offline
member

Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 74
He lives in an apartment a few miles from her home. He has lived there about 3 years. He lived in a previous apartment for about 3 years too. Prior to that, he lived in my mom's condo for about 2 years. He complained that he needed to move from her condo because my mom wasn't respectful of "his space." HIS SPACE? It was her condo! This is right around the time that I found the evidence that he had been surfing for porn on her computer. I found out recently that he also went to my brother's house and did the same thing.

I will find out the Blue Book value and give it the information to her. He's always had a strangle-hold on her emotionally but the cancer recurrence really seals it. I find it difficult to feel compassion for him re: his illness because of all the crap he has pulled and continues to pull with my mom. My own opinion is that my mom probably shouldn't drive, but not so he can have her car.

Re: the money . . . Yes, during that time he was still exploiting her for money telling her every financial hardship he has. So, she'd give him money and pay his car insurance and pay for gas in her own car so he could drive around.

ugh.

The disability is confirmed, but in order to not forfeit his eligibility for state sponsored insurance he has to spend the money by the end of the month. He did very little to find a car until last week. He could pay forward on his rent and his utilities to provide for his physical security but I'm pretty sure that he will spend it on an airline ticket so he can have "some time off" (to use his words). When one of my brothers suggested these things to him, he smugly told him . . . "these are my decisions" which is code for "don't tell me what to do."

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#10031 - 09/27/10 09:35 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi Twin, in some cases regarding disability a person receiving aid cannot drive a car over $5K, which is what I think most states have. He can't have a car worth anymore and say it is only worth 5K, the people with the aids group are not stupid.

I would think him driving in her car could provide to be a dangerous situation; she would be the one to lose if anything happens.

Di

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#10081 - 10/07/10 12:01 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Dianne E.]
twin Offline
member

Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 74
I wanted to let you know that I've re-initiated counseling services for myself. My first appointment will be this coming Monday. I've got to sort through all of this (again)! As I wrote previously, I've got to figure out how to maintain a good relationship with my mom despite my brother's destructive, exploitative, and dysfunctional relationship with her. The relationship between them is separate from my relationship with her, but I often feel like I'm cleaning up the messes that he's dumped on her.

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#10087 - 10/07/10 09:18 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi Twin, it is much appreciated that you took the time to let us know how you are progressing. I see it as a very positive step and even though it will be very hard, from what I know of you and your writings I know you can do it. Seperating those feelings will only help you to have the relationship with your mom. He will obviously never change but you are being the adult and making moves to change. I am guessing your mom knows this deep down and I can only imagine how glad she will be to form a relationship with you.

I am sure the therapist will help you with some constructive comments when your brothers name gets brought up about your brother.

He isn't worth wasting having a relationship with your mother, you will rest better in the end knowing you stuck with her no matter what he does.

Let us know how the therapist is able to help you move this boulder out of the way so you can have a relationship with your mother regardless of what he does or says.

Di

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#10315 - 11/18/10 08:56 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Dianne E.]
twin Offline
member

Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 74
Hi All -

Therapy is going well. It is painful at times, but all and all it is going well. One of the things that I'm realizing is how profoundly my upbringing (with his needs and head games) has impacted my marriage. From an early age, the needs of my sister and I were not acknowledged or met. I think that I was raised to accomodate, to not rock the boat, to make sure he didn't get upset, etc., etc. 40 + years of daily doses of putting his needs and my mom's needs first has really made me forget my self and my own needs. I've got some work to do on me.

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#10329 - 11/21/10 10:36 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
twin Offline
member

Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 74
Theatre and Violet -- Thanks for your kind replies. I really appreciate them. Keeping my fingers crossed and my boundaries rock solid for thanksgiving.

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#10344 - 11/26/10 10:06 AM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
twin Offline
member

Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 74
Hi -

My brother had a very peculiar and verbally abusive episode the other day with my friend who I paid to help him secure SSDI. He received a standard letter from them asking him to submit (actually re-submit) his work history from the past three years. The letter also stated that if he had any questions he could call them.

He asked my friend to look at the letter and she explained that it was a standard letter and that he should resubmit the work history record. He responded that he was going to call them and tell them "This is inappropriate. I'm not going to jump through any more of your hoops. I refuse." My friend patiently explained to him that this was standard and that she didn't think that he should do this because it would draw negative attention to his case and potentially flag him for an audit. She's a very straightforward and very patient person, but keep in mind he asked her for her opinion and help on this letter.

When he didn't like what she had to say he got angry at her and said "Calm down. Calm down." She looked confused at how he was escalating this. Again he said, "I said calm down." So my friend took the letter, gave it back to him, and said, "I don't think it is good idea to call them. Just re-submit the work history." So he takes the letter and rolls it into a tube, puts it in front of his mouth, and starts saying really loudly, "Attention. Attention. I said calm down. Attention. Attention." (etc, etc.)

I know he's done this kind of stuff with my mom. I've been on the phone when he's there and she can't get him to stop, but my mom blocks it out (or something) after it is over. Although I felt bad that my friend experienced this, it was in an odd way validating.

At first, I wasn't going to go to Thanksgiving Dinner at my sister's because I knew he'd be there, but I decided to go and then made a conscious effort to not engage him at all. I did it and because of that my day went pretty well.

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#10347 - 11/26/10 06:45 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: twin]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
It shows what a grasp on society. SSI always denies the first, time I would this would be determine how much they would pay him. There is some forumal going through the work field depends on how much he will receive in pay. He should be lucky he is on the last phase, how on heck does he think SSI would figure out his past income with no idea he made in the past./ They have a formula that is based on employment during a certain period.


What does he think that SSI dreams up the amount

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#10348 - 11/26/10 09:30 PM Re: Brother is anti social I need help [Re: Dianne E.]
twin Offline
member

Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 74
He is so fortunate that my friend understands SSDI. She was able to secure his SSDI on the first try and within 5 months and without having to fork over a third to a lawyer. My other sister and I paid her for her work because we knew he would be so trying every step of the way. And he was. He didn't do the things that she asked him to do. Once she asked him to bring his Social Security Card to her and he explained that it was pretty tattered. She informed him that she needed the original and not a copy because SSDI had to make the copy not him and not her. So he brings back a COPY of the card. She asked him if he remembered that she said that he needed the original. To which he responded, "I know. I've got it at home, but I want to see if they will make an exception." She told him, "Go home. Get the original. I turn it in when you bring me that and not before." He huffed out of her door and then lied to our mother saying that she refused to help him. But I have to remind myself that we ultimately did this to take the heat off of my mom. It's been successful in that sense given that she isn't always worried about him being able to make his bills. But as you know, it is so empty too. He's shown no gratitude to me or my sister. He was an ass to our friend and continues to pull stunts like this episode.

I think that the thing is that all of us need boundaries. That just keeps people healthy. With psychopaths, we need walls. Rock solid walls. I'm back to that again. What is difficult is that so few people understand this kind of person. I don't feel comfortable sharing the circumstances with even my most close friends (with the exception of the friend who helped him get SSDI) because unless you've interacted with someone like this it is so difficult to get a grasp on the head jobs and mind games they play. People understand drug addicts. People understand criminals. People understand domestic abusers. They may not like them, but most people understand them. But so few people really understand psychopaths with their chronic exploitation, their perpetual manipulations, their lies, etc. So in that sense it is very isolating. I'm thankful that I've found this discussion board. It helps with the isolation.

I'm also thankful that I've got my sister. I guess that we're both realizing how much stress this has put on us and how this persistent process of ALWAYS not just sometimes but ALWAYS CONSTANTLY subjugating your own needs for another person has impacted us.

My therapist is good. I feel like she understands this and she is supportive. It has been helpful. Painful but helpful.

So we went to Thanksgiving dinner and I completely avoided him. If he was in one room, I was in another. It wasn't tense. It was actually safe feeling. I have no intentions of doing anything differently for Christmas either. So I'm doing better.

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