General Discussion - Part Three

Posted by: Dianne E.

General Discussion - Part Three - 08/21/04 11:11 AM

Part Two is getting quite loaded. If you don't find a thread already open and have a general question or comment, please post here.

If you have a topic that you feel is necessay to have it's own "thread" please do so. This is a good spot to communicate about general ideas.

Thanks much,


Posted by: sarah

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/25/04 06:58 AM

Hi, I`m new here and I`m so glad to have found this group. I`ve been reading the posts here for months and its helped me like nothing else!

I`ve had 2 dangerous men in my life and after reading excerpts and reviews of Dr. Hare's book, Without Conscience and The Mask of Sanity, and other articles on the subject I believe both of them are psychopaths . These 2 come and go in my life, eerily at he same time too!!... again and again... after many years!.... And most `definately` not at my request... No!! In spite of my efforts to keep them away.... Then they leave again... But not after doing major damage. And like a bad storm they leave devastation and ruin in my life. And what`s worse, they affect my children too, and they don`t know or care what pain they cause.

My story is life-long and multi-layered, hard to tell in a few words, But I`d like to try and share it with you hoping you might help me to know if they really are P`s, The books and your stories have helped me understand that they probably are. I hope to learn more, and I hope I can help someone too.

I`ll start with something I wrote in my journal 3 days before he dumped me the last time. I was keeping a journal throughout the whole 8 months I was seeing him (P#1), it was 21 years since the last time I`d fallen under his spell. I`ll share it with you all if you`d like, as it tells a story of how I was wooed, used and then dumped, again!!!

“The Game”


The game, is a game of hearts. The “Heartbreaker” is the “Master” of this game. He leaves broken hearts everywhere. He`s a manipulator. A strong persuader. Uses feelings and words. Not gifts and tangible things. He uses his eyes first to catch you, they focus on you, and you feel captured, unable to escape their intense gaze. Then he uses his words. His words are subtle, but they make the point he`s trying to get across to you. His point is that you are in his sights and there is nothing you can do about it. Then he uses this kiss. It`s so focused on your heart and your emotions that he takes your breath away and you fall madly in love with him, just because he leaves you no choice. You feel like a captured bird that cannot free itself. He has you under his magical spell and you`re left reeling, wondering how it happened so fast.

(His name) is “The Master” at this game. After all, I should know. He`s done it to me three times now. Even though I tried my best to avoid him, he managed to get to me, again. Nothing worked till he said, “I want to hold you (My name)”. I couldn`t resist him when he put it in words like that. And then I let him come over and he stared at me till I told him it made me uncomfortable. And then... He Kissed me... And Oh!... That was “all she wrote”, I started falling right back in love with him. My heart was trapped again, just like a bird in a cage.

“The Game” worked. After all those years, he`s still a Player. A “Master of the Heartbreakers”, and he`s gonna break my heart again.... I know it!


I wrote this before I read about psychopaths. I was writing about how my boyfriend made me feel. Recently I read from this site something a psychopath wrote in prison about psychopaths. He`s saying almost the same thing I was feeling . VERY SCARY!

It says:

"He will choose you, disarm you with his words, and control you with his presence. He will delight you with his wit and plans. He will show you a good time, but you will always get the bill. He will smile and deceive you, and he will scare you with his eyes. And when he is through with you, and he WILL be through with you, he will desert you and take with him your innocence and pride. You will be left much sadder but not alot wiser, and for a long time you will wonder what happened and what you did wrong.

I will write more of my story later.

Thank you All
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/26/04 07:52 AM

Hi Sarah,

Welcome to the board. I am a fairly new member - joined a couple of weeks ago. Even in that short time I have found it helpful to post here. As we all know, being in these relationships is upsetting and hearing other perspectives from posters who have had similar experiences and can relate, really makes a difference.

I will respond to you in more detail on the weekend.

Take care,


Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/26/04 10:48 AM

Hi Sarah,

Welcome to the forum. I notice that Sylvie beat me to it and I am glad she did.

I have read your story and I can easily understand the pain and the distress of what you are going through.

I must apologise. I would normally reply to your post at length, but one of my adult children are very ill and besides work and other things, I don't have as much free time as I normally do. I hope that you can hang on until the weekend when I anticipate having more time.

Till then,

Take care,

Posted by: sarah

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/28/04 04:14 AM

Glad to get your supportive responses Sylvie & Nan, Thanks so much!

It`s good to know there are people who understand and who do not automatically assume that you must have done something to make these so-called good men leave you so suddenly! People will ask you, "What did you do to make him end it so quickly"? They say "People don`t do that for no reason, it must be you"! (they think HE is normal)

But these scary seducers are far from normal. They are predators, and when they need someone to use again, they will come back to the ones they remember were easy, and if you live alone with your kids, they imagine you are lonely and therefore venerable. They have no doubt that you will fall for their charm, (since you did before).

So they expect you will be more than "thrilled" to be in their presence to fill this `temporary` need in their life, then afterward, they will be done with you. And If you don`t comply, they will waste no time in finding someone who will, leaving you wondering what happened and even blaming yourself for it!


P#1, I`ll call him a P, cause I believe he has no conscience whatsoever! Just a deep concern for himself and a "what`s in it for me", "who cares about you" type of attitude, and has probably been that way most of his life.

I`ll have to go "Way Back" to when I first met him to give you a idea what kind of man this is.

I was new to the town that he grew up in and I had already met his sister. But, the first time I met him, he was 19 (almost 20) and I was only 12. Sitting in a small town cafe, I noticed he was watching me, staring at me. I was nervous and couldn`t believe it, but I was thrilled that an older guy noticed me. Then he came over and told me his name and I told him mine and he asked me if I wanted to go outside and sit in his car to listen to music. I was afraid, but I went, not knowing anything would happen, I just thought we`d listen to music, but he kissed me. And it was NOT just a little kiss, but a REAL kiss.

My first kiss at age 12 was not suppossed to be by a grown man:( It was suppossed to be by a guy my age and it was suppossed to be a kiss on the cheek if at all! But, of course I thought I must look older and seem mature, if this older guy liked me!

BUT, He knew better than to take advantage of a young girl (it was a crime and he should have went to jail), but I fell madly in love with him and a few months later he sneaked me off to a drive inn movie, then to a dark place and there he stole my innocence:( ...And of course, I kept it a secret.

He joined the army soon afterward and left me grieving for him, and longing for him and worrying about him too. But he had another girl when he left, one closer to his age and she was the one that got to see him off and he wrote to her. I had to hear the letters he wrote to her, since she read them aloud to his sister and me. I went off and cried... First love hurts, and if the first love is man and your a girl, it`s also abuse! But I didn`t know.

Don`t want to dwell on ancient history, but it`s crucial to the rest of my story, cause he is the man who took my innocence, fathered my child (much later) Didn`t take any responsibilty for her, at all and he recently came back telling me things he knew I needed to hear, like he said, I was always "The One", and he told me, "I remember everything, every moment we were together, especially the night we made our daughter", etc.,etc.,etc.

And all because he needed someone to raise his kids (so he wouldn`t have to pay child support,of course) when he succeeded in taking them away from their mother.(he made her spend all of her money fighting him in court for years, while he has a lawyer on a retainer basis) He used to beat their mother and HE got the kids!!! He managed to turn them against their mom.

But, his mother who WAS keeping them when he got custody, was very ill and he had to have a babysitter to replace her and guess what? I was the target. My daughter never got ANYTHING from him, not even a little bit of his time, much less any child support. But that doesn`t matter to him. He just needed me to raise his kids from another woman!!! AMAZINGLY CRUEL,... Don`t You Think??

This is really the nicer side of him, haven`t gotten to the REAL monster that he is, yet. Or the P#2, who was extremely violent and Sadistic and is the cause of my PTSD...

Will continue my story as soon as I can.

Thanks for this wonderful group,

Posted by: sarah

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/28/04 04:44 AM

Adding this to my story:

P#1 had been trying to get me to go out with him for a couple of years and I said NO, for a couple of years... Then in the summer of 2003... He kept on asking me to see him again and again and I turned him down again and again. Then like a fool.... I went out with him, even though I NEVER thought I would again! I had to literally talk myself into seeing him. And I couldn`t believe that he started having the same affect on me!

I took myself back to 1969 to remember what how he made me feel the first time, which wasn`t easy, believe me! It was the third time in my life that he targeted me. I didn`t know what a P was, but as I read the stuff from my journal, it is clear that this man had the traits even when he was in his teens,


In August of 2003 I wrote;

When I was young, "P`s Name" was like the best thing that I had ever seen in my whole life. He was so special, you could just feel it around him. It was his presence that I noticed. He had something I can`t name. I don`t know what it is, he just had it. When he came into a room, everyone saw him, he stood out from the crowd even though he was quiet and kinda shy. And it wasn`t just me that noticed, he could have any girl he wanted and he dated some of the prettiest girls around there. His brothers and sisters treated him like he was some kind of hero. They went on about him even when he wasn`t around and they wanted to impress him when he was. He brought that out in them. I just wanted to be around him all the time...

I wanted to watch him do everything. He was so cute and I couldn`t believe it when he noticed me! I was just a girl. When he turned his attention to me, whether it was right or wrong, I fell in love with him. I fell so hard that I was sick! He did that to me. I guess it`s silly but I thought "P`s Name" was greater than any movie star I`d ever had a crush on. And he was living right across the road from me! And for just a little while... I had him!

I couldn`t help myself when he planned on sneaking me off to the Drive Inn, I was so scared, but I went. I just had to go because he wanted me to and I would have done anything he wanted me to do back then.

I doubt if he ever knew the effect he had on me. He was too busy with other things and I was just a girl that hung around. And I hung around him as much as I could. I`m sure I was annoying cause I never went home! I was crazy about him. I remember how I felt when he left his house to go somewhere. He`d get dressed up to go and when he`d leave I`d get this horrible sinking feeling and there was nothing I could do, but wait. I figured he had a date and I was just so jealous! When he`d get back home I`d feel relieved. So when he got me to go out with him, I was very, very willing and way, way too young.

It`s likely that he took advantage of me back then, and that`s okay, but why does he still come around? Why does he want to see me now? I don`t know. But I do know that since he`s back around, I`m thrilled just like before to have his attention!


This Man Always has the Same Effect on Me!!! And All He Wants to do is USE ME!!!

The NO CONTACT RULE is truely the ONLY WAY to deal with P`s
Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/28/04 05:08 AM

Hiya Sarah,

I have copied and pasted your two posts into Word. I will look at it later and try to get a reply back to you sometime today. please don't hold your breath though. If not today, I promise you a reply by tomorrow. I am in Europe and the time difference may make it seem as through it will be tomorrow when I say today <smile>.


Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/28/04 09:33 AM

Hi Sarah

So glad you've found this forum. I hope it helps you as much as it has me.

Your post brings my own P experience vividly to life. The way he had of being 'larger than life', more special than anyone else I'd ever met. I can't explain why - he wasn't good looking, but just was more 'alive' than anyone I knew.

Also I've read from other posts, and identify with it, that P's have an amazing ability to tune in to their victims, and to appear to be exactly the one individual who can fulfill all the victims needs.

It takes so much disillusionment, so much heartache, such a long weary road in order to realise that this man will never give you anything, never fulfill any of your dreams or desires, never be relied on.

As you have said, no contact is the only hope!
Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/29/04 03:17 AM

Dear Sarah,

Your description of yourself as a little 12-year-old girl, with stars in her eyes, is so heart breaking. It was such a long time ago, but everything that happened to you then has continued to haunt you like the bad dream it actually is. My mother died when I was 12 and a large part of me can so easily understand this twelve-year-old girl and her need for love, understanding and admiration. In my case, a much older Uncle, a family member, fulfilled my desire for love, understanding and admiration. Luckily, he never went as far as did the young man you described, but had he wanted more than what he took, I cannot say how I would have reacted. I was lucky that he exercised some restraint.

There is no doubt in my mind that this young man abused you. A twelve-year-old child is NOT capable of informed consent.

A twelve-year-old girl, nor withstanding that she plays up to adult males in the family, notably her father, does so with the firm conviction that she will be protected against herself and her budding sexuality. A twelve-year-old girl does NOT know what she is doing. She has no idea of what constitutes consent for she does not understand what her mind is asking, nor what her body is doing to her. She is simply trying out limits, while in a very innocent way, looking to explore the woman she will one day become.

Most of the time, her father will lovingly compliment her on her looks, her hairstyle or what not. He will hug her gently, appropriately, when she, with a winning smile, comes tripping over to sit on his lap. Unconsciously, she wants to know that she is desirable, and by telling her that she is pretty, and by holding her softly and appropriately, while stroking her still rounded and downy cheek and reassuring her how pretty she is, her father is giving her the support that she wants and the confidence she needs to grow into self-assured woman.

When an adult male takes advantage of a young girl, he is in effect robbing her of her innocence. Not only that, he also contributes to her arrested development, i.e., she will often remain as if fast frozen in a 12 year old girl’s mindset. The adult woman may continue to have the unfulfilled needs of a 12 year old.

You write:

“It`s likely that he took advantage of me back then,…”

NO! He DID take advantage of you.

“… and that`s okay,…”

Believe me, it is NOT okay. It’s child abuse. There is no other name for it.

“… but why does he still come around?”

Because he can. Because you let him. Because you are available.

“ Why does he want to see me now? I don`t know..”

Because he realises that you are still hooked in to him. Because he knows that he can manipulate you. Because he knows that when no one is available, you will be available.

“ But I do know that since he`s back around, I`m thrilled just like before to have his attention! “

Yes! Unfortunately! But since you are now aware of this, you finally have the power to change it. You have finally discovered how truly unhealthy this relationship is to you and therein you will find the redeeming feature that will enable you to say no to this man.

Sarah, if you have not considered it before, may I suggest that you seek the help of a qualified and registered therapist. You really need to discuss all this with a therapist, who will be able to help you understand what happened to you when you were a young girl. Childhood traumas can continue to haunts us all through our adult lives, but it need not be this way. A good therapist or a psychologist can make a real wonderful difference to our worldview. You deserve, in all ways, to be the loving adult woman that you were meant to be.

Warm regards,


Posted by: sarah

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/30/04 06:11 AM

Dear Nan,

Thank you so much Nan for your kind and thoughtful comments, and I`m very sorry to hear about your mother. I can`t imagine how painful that must have been for you. But I can see that you too were vunerable at that age and I`m glad that your uncle did exercise some restraint for your sake!

The man who took advantage of me knew how old I was and shouldn`t have paid any attention to me. I was very shy and didn`t talk much anyway and I would have never talked to a 19 year old guy, much less flirt with him!!! The "stars in my eyes" had to be put there by him because he made the decision to put the move on me. I didn`t even know what the move was, since I had no past reference to go by. He seduced me as if I were a woman, though I was only a child with the experiences of a child.... He knew that I had no male role model to speak of, my mother and father were divorced long before and I had no brothers, only two married sisters. I had a step father but my mother wouldn`t allow him to act in a fatherly role. He didn`t seem to have wisdom with my sisters before, so he was basically just her husband. She was the boss in the house.

And yes, I have had therapy (in the mid 1990`s), and I agree with you, it did help me to realize that I`ve been very effected by my experience of early sexual abuse. I also think I need to go back into therapy, because I allowed this to man cross my bounderies again. I do know that before therapy, my bounderies were far too easily crossed and I have suffered so much pain in my life because of it. I did, however learn to feel when someone was crossing my comfort zone and learning this has helped me very much and I knew this man was crossing my bounderies. My body told me he was invading my space, I was nauseated the whole time I was seeing him! I was literally heaving all the time! But this time he used new tactics...

I did not want to see him again, EVER! He is not a good person! I never would talk to him, never would agree to see him whenever he`d ask me out. I told him NO!, everytime he called. He`d been using my grandmother to get messages to me for a couple of years, she was telling me more and more of how much he asked about me. I told her "Yeah, he calls me and I don`t want anything to do with him". Eventually, MY WHOLE FAMILY, was involved! Telling me I, "better not mess this one up", "he`s a good catch", "he`s the top guy in his field", "he can take good care of you", "a chance like this may not come along again"....stuff like that...On and On it went... He really stepped up his whole campaign he had going with my family, and I thought "This can`t be the same person they are telling me about!! The one who never had anything to do with his daughter! They were acting like he was just a great guy and I wasn`t being fair not giving him a chance to prove it!!! He had actually put me in a place where I was forced to prove to my family who he REALLY was!!!...And I DID show them the Low Life Scum that he really is!!!, (I`ll get around to telling that part)... in the end... it`s my kids and I who`ve had to suffer, not anyone else!

Well, I have been here twice before with him, but this third time he wasn`t going away so easily. (like I said, my story is very hard to tell, it`s long and multi-layered)

Going back to the second time he waltzed into my world, and took advantage of my vunerability ...this is the next part of my story.

The 2nd part of my story starts with P#2:

I was 20 when I met him, he was a very violent man, but of course he was nice at first. I thought he loved me when he chased away my dates, falsely claiming that I was his girl. I let him take control of me, never asking myself if I loved him. All of a sudden I was this guy`s possession! Well..., and my mother did literally push him off on me. In her eyes though, it was my fault when he started hitting me. (P#2 hit me in the face with his fist the first time.... for waking him from his long nap to eat a piece of my homemade pie). But my mother didn`t care WHY he hit me, “I had made my bed so now I had to lie in it”, that is the way she thinks. But P#2, with my mothers help... had shoved me into that bed... and as far as I knew, I had no choice but to lie in.

You see, I had been working and dating and renting a place (from my mother) when P#2 got his leg hurt and lost his job. I came home from work one day and my mother had actually moved him in with me!. She said that she could do whatever she wanted to, it was “her property”. I was stunned! But what could I do?, I didn`t make enough money to move out and I had tried to find a roomate, with no luck.

Well, P#2 proceeded to eliminate the male competition and tear down my self esteem, and not long after that he beat me up bad. Then P#2 moved me to a big city, all alone and without a car. Thats when he really went crazy with his abuse, P#2 locked me out of the apartment whenever he felt he wasn`t pleased with me, or because I made him sick, I was so stupid and ugly and he didn`t want me and no one else would want me either. Then I had to walk without shoes or money, he threw me out with nothing. And he did it often. People tried to pick me up to give me a ride... and I had to get a ride.... I tried to only get in the car with nice people, but once they ended up being cruel and dropping me off in a dangerous neighborhood, laughing as they drove away. It was Pure Hell! Then I`d get to my mothers and she would ask me what I did and never ask him anything... She`d tell me I better go back and P#2 would come crying telling me he was sorry. So I had to go back... I had bruises and black eyes.

But..., In my mind, I was making a plan to get away. I didn`t have a real plan, just knew I had to leave or maybe die, cause P#2 said many times he would kill me. Choked me, kicked me in the ribs and head when he knocked me down, like I was not important enough to treat like a human being. P#2 would lock me in the dark closet till he was ready to let me out too.

But everyone either blamed me or didn`t want to know about it. The police (of course) said “why don`t you just leave him”. I ended up blocking out the worst of it, don`t remember and so I suffer from PTSD, and Major Depression thanks to P#2. Anyway, I was with him for a couple of years, when he beat me and brutally raped me. The police accepted the assault charge against him, but told me that my husband couldn`t rape me... I just broke down right there, and cried.... I thought rape was rape, and this was a violent rape commited by someone who said he loves me! I felt like I was all alone in the world that this guy was gonna be allowed to kill me, like that was OK, cause I was I his and he could do whatever he wanted to me, cause he WAS doing whatever he wanted to me. And when I filed for a divorce, P just got worse. I stayed with my sister and he was stalking me, throwing bricks, phoning me in the middle of the night, making my sister and her husband miserable, coming to my job acting like a crazed lunatic!..

Meantime, my other sister told P#1 that I was seperated and he started coming to visit me. I was so afraid of P#2 and here comes my first love, P#1 and he was so willing to hold me. Looking back I know I gave into him because I was so vunerable and I thought I needed someone... but he did not make me feel safe... and he did not appreciate the real danger I was in... He asked me to "run off" with him, (Yeah Right?) and he didn`t say I love you, just said will you run off with me? Well, I was going through hell at the time and he didn`t even see it. I was 24 years old then and of course as things go, I got pregnant, (I`ll add that having my daughter and later my son is the best thing that ever happened to me...) I got pregnant by P#1...but by the time I found out, he had already moved on. Then, P#2 heard I was pregnant (I wish I knew who told him) and he begged me to come back to him, saying he would love the child like his own. He wore me down, almost got me fired from my job always hanging around and I could see I had no way to escape him, and I went back to him and dropped the divorce... He wasn`t home much when I was pregnant, which was a good thing. Meanwhile, P#1 heard about the pregnancy (probably my other sister told him) and he saw me in my car one day, pulled me over to the side of the road and told me that the baby was his and I just told him that I hoped not.

And when my daughter was just 6 months old P#2 started beating me again.

But I finally got away from P#2 before my daughter turned two, and like Julia Roberts did in "Sleeping With The Enemy", I didn`t tell anyone, and I haven`t seen him since 1984, he moved to another state, but he still lets me know he`s out there, he recently bought my daughter a new car with her not letting me know he was in touch with her...

But all was not bad,for a little while anyway. I finally met a good man who loved me and made me trust again, and I loved him very much and we were going to get married and he was going to adopt my daughter after the divorce from P#2. But before we had the money saved for the court costs (we didn`t have alot of money), I got pregnant with our son (his Dad worked 2 jobs to pay the doctor and hospital bills), and it looked like happiness was finally in reach for our little family..., or so it seemed. But he was killed on his job when our son was barely two... I`ve had to raise my two children alone, although without psychopaths and without violence..but also sadly, without a good man in their lives. My son`s father is sorely missed today :-( .... This is the reason I finally went into therapy.

Many years later when my daughter was a Senior in high school. P#2 had his daughter send my daughter a cell phone so she could call... And I didn`t Even Know It!!! When I found out about it... It seemed like the whole world I had created for my children was now being turned upside down... Now that he made contact with her, he tried to make it seem that I was the mean mother depriving her daughter of her Dad... and he was the good parent buying her things that I couldn`t afford..., (cause neither P was about claim to be her father during all those child support years) and (I didn`t want P`s around her anyway... including my mother... if she`s P).

Well... I am sure that P#2`s money didn`t come from working, because he doesn`t work!!! He got it from whatever easy and illegal thing he had to do to get money, it`s dirty money!!. He was in prison part of the time, and he wrote some strange letters to me from there and I saved them in case I ever needed them for any reason... Anyway, he made her think he was her Dad, even though she had always known who her father was and had met him. (he had visited her several times, but only when he was seperated from his wife, he says). I could not get a divorce from P#2 though, because they would have given him visitation rights and there was no way I was going to risk letting this Sadist get visitation rights. DNA wasn`t being used to prove paternity yet. And when it did begin to be used, I was filling out papers to divorce P#2.... when I realized that P#1 would now get to take her and I knew he was just as bad for her, if not worse than P#2... I stopped filling out the papers and I didn`t go through with it.

My daughter is now 21, married to a good man and they have a beautiful baby boy, she is very well adjusted, in her third year of college... and now in the last few years both P`s have come into our lives again and at the same time!, it`s like the plague I guess... Maybe it`s a dry season for P`s and they are really reaching back far to old victims, seeing who`s vunerable and of course they are gonna see me alone and think I`m easy, unprotected prey. So P#2 starts stalking me, calling my sister telling her that when he was in town recently, he sat out in front of my house for hours and wanted to knock on my door and tell me he still loved me!!! Needless to say, I have PTSD and that threw me into having full blown panic attacks in front of my teenage son. This was not good. He bought my daughter a new car after she got married, he even visited her home, Oh how I cringe at the thought!!!

(OMG!!! ...Now that they don`t have to worry about paying child support or facing my daughter with answers to her questions, they came back for Me ... THIS JUST OCCURED TO ME!!! OH GOD..., HELP ME!!)

Nan you said: >Because he realises that you are still hooked in to him. Because he knows that he can manipulate you. Because he knows that when no one is available, you will be available.<

This is the sickening truth about what he`s trying to do, what both of them are trying to do! This is how their minds work... Oh, Thank you so much Nan!

I`m so glad to have this place to tell my story... It all seems like a horror story to me when I go back and read it, and it`s hard to read, cause it`s much worse than I thought when I got it all put together...that`s why it`s not believable to people.

There is more to my story about P#1

I`ll continue it later.. And will also try to post more notes I wrote in the journal I kept while I was seeing P#1

Thank you for being here!
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/30/04 10:00 AM

Hi Mati,

You said (on the revenge thread) in response to my post:

"Just reading through the problems you are having makes me think that it is not worth fighting what you are up against and I think I would leave the area."

I think you have a good point - sometimes these issues become too intractable and one could easily end up spending a whole lifetime being bogged down by them. I would move if I could but that's out of the question right now. I find dealing with two P situations at the same time severely curtails one's options!

You also said:

"For the immediate future, I think I would get the police involved though if it was me and the negative implications for others are the responsibility of the purpetrators not you. Bullying just gets worse if you do nothing IMO."

I completely agree that bullying would likely only get worse without a response and a strong one at that. I posted on a different thread that I watched a documentary about school bullying and when 8-10 yr olds were asked why they picked on certain kids, they said that they knew that those particular kids would not retaliate or snitch on them, that they would just take it. So there's a telling lesson from the mouth of babes.

Agree absolutely that it isn't my responsibility but since this couple is very close to me relationally, it is wrenching that action I may take to protect myself (like involving the police, which I am seriously considering) could cause their kids distress. But I realize that when it comes to Ps there are never any easy choices, in fact they often seem like "devil or deep sea" ones - that's just the way it is.

Thanks for your advice - it's well received.

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/30/04 10:45 AM

Hi again Mati,

Just wanted to comment on your post (08/24/04 01:08 AM on the Revenge thread) about the situation with your husband and sons. Apologize it's taken me a while.

It seems like children sometimes have a block when it comes to seeing the damage that one parent can do to another and that is exacerbated when the individual is highly manipulative. Also, your sons are apparently still at an age when a more permissive and "generous" parent is favoured.

The example you gave of your husband hiding letters about your daugher's truancy just underscores how emotionally immature and incredible self serving Ps are. It's really maddening stuff and yet I'm glad that your daughter is free of his negative influence and now supportive of you. I think most people soften their views with age and experience and I very much hope your sons eventually come around to that way of thinking.

Take care of yourself,

Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/30/04 01:16 PM

Thanks sylvie

yes you are right that the young will favour whoever is more permissive and at least I have my daughter who knows the truth now. I did not say psychopath to her but after I told her what had been happening (she left home a long time since) she said "He is a psychopath and dangerous." It has made a big difference to me to have someone confirming it like that, you know how you sometimes doubt it in the early days of finding out. If one day the boys will listen to her (they have no contact at present) they will hopefully believe her. p has made sure that they do not have contact.

I just have to cope with the heartbreak of losing them on top of losing the eldest son to suicide three years ago. I now hold p responsible for that. My daughter is also mentally ill with bipolar which is worse because of her childhood with p.

Pleased I was of some help to you.

Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/02/04 03:34 AM

Dear Sarah,

You write:

“I have had therapy (in the mid 1990`s), and I agree with you, it did help me to realize that I`ve been very effected by my experience of early sexual abuse.”

I am glad, for a good therapist can make a world of difference to how we view ourselves and others. It is very important that we learn not to act or feel like victims, i.e., people who are at the mercy of other people’s whims, wishes and desires.

You write:

“I also think I need to go back into therapy, because I allowed this to man cross my bounderies again.”

Going into therapy again could be just what you need at this time because you are aware that you have allowed this man to cross your boundaries again. The effect this man has on you is very negative and for different reasons you seem unable to resist him. What is very important for you to understand is that without your cooperation, however reluctant, this man (P2) cannot come into your life again.

I personally know that a P can be very persuasive. I also know that a P will stop at almost nothing to get what he wants. However, one thing I have learned is that a P can get nothing, nothing, nothing, unless you give it to him. Once a P becomes aware that there is NOTHING to be had – aware that you are no longer a “sitting duck” waiting patiently for the next round of shot to hit you, he will stop coming around. Believe me!

Oh yes, a P can be very difficult to get rid of. It will take time before he realises that you have reached your absolute limits. He will keep trying. He will keep pushing for what he wants. What he wants is NOT you, but the power associated with you being available to him. It does not matter to him that your availability is on an extremely reluctant basis, so long as you ARE available.

The trick is to not be available in any way, shape or form. You have to say, “NO!” and mean it. If he shows up at you doorstep, be polite, but VERY firm. Do not let him inside. Under no pretext or any circumstance, do not let him in the house. Do not argue with him. Do not engage in any kind of explanation about why he cannot come inside. Just say NO!

You write that your family thinks he is ‘a good catch’. It is very unfortunate and very ill conceived, but commonplace thinking, to believe that a woman must have a man in her life to be worth anything at all. No woman needs a man like P1 or P2. No woman needs or wants to be abused by a man. I believe that it is far, far better to live alone than to accept a man, any man, who is abusive.

You have gone to hell and back and only a very strong woman can do that. Believe in yourself Sarah. Like you, I think that seeing and talking with your therapist again, could be helpful to you right now. I also think that writing down your story, as you have been doing, is an important journey in self-discovery. Not only is it very helpful to you, but it also helps other P victims.

Take care and be strong,


Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/04/04 11:06 AM

Hi Mati

How're you doing?

"I just have to cope with the heartbreak of losing them on top of losing the eldest son to suicide three years ago. I now hold p responsible for that. My daughter is also mentally ill with bipolar which is worse because of her childhood with p."

I'm sorry to hear about your son's passing and also your daughter's illness. That's a lot of distress to have cope with by any measure. You must have a lot of resilience to come through all of that.

As for your younger sons, I think most people eventually see Ps for what they are since the mask starts to slip, especially with those they have a lot of contact with. Hopefully they will see through the deception before long and tire of it.

You take care,
Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/04/04 02:45 PM

Hi sylvie

Thanks so much for asking after me. I am doing better at the moment since I snapped out of the low I was in where I felt like giving up on my sons but I cannot because they need me even though they do not know it. I am striving to make more contact with them as I feel the more they have with me the quicker they will suss their father out. As long as they see me as the baddy and I react with hurt, it will be a smokescreen for him.

I do not think that I am resiliant, and having been brought up by a schizophrenic mother and sexually abused by a family member I do not have any natural strength to draw upon. But I have a very strong experience of the love of Christ in my life so that is what holds me up.

How are you doing? Have you made any decisions regarding the bullying?
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/04/04 02:57 PM

Hi Nan,

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to your post (08/24/04 04:38 AM). I've been on the board a few times since but saw a message from a new poster or other one that I thought I should probably respond to first since they seemed upset.

You said:
"I do not think that it need be a negative personaility trait that attacts a P. For example, strong, very capable and nurturing women can be just the thing to attact a needy P. Being strong, capable and nurturing is not a negative characteristic."

I completely agree. A commonly held view seems to be that all women in these relationships must be weak and needy but in fact I've never believed that. I know that's not my personality and I think you had it right when you described the negative effect of being with a P as insidious, that's exactly what I found. That's important for women to realize so that maybe they can watch out for the signs and hopefully get out early. In fact the reason we clashed a lot is because I used to resist his attempts to control me and never really acquiesced. Funnily enough I think that's also why the relationship with him has not bothered me as much as the encounters I've had with other Ps. The difference is I stood up for myself and so accordingly I've not felt victimized to the same extent or had the loss of confidence/helplessness that often comes with that. That makes all the difference. I guess some P situations are just more intractable than others and require police involvement.

The reason I found it difficult to comprehend that I had encountered Ps on three fronts is because at an emotional, gut level, I think I still associate the word "psychopath" with serial killers etc. That's what the media conditions us to think. I guess that's what society at large still thinks which is why support/recourse for people who are victimized by "regular" Ps is relatively sparse.

Yes, compassion has to start with ourselves. I like that.

Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/05/04 03:26 AM

Hi Sylvie,

Like you, I have been active on the board with new posters. You cannot be everywhere, so you try hard to make the best decision about who to answer first.

You write:

"In fact the reason we clashed a lot is because I used to resist his attempts to control me and never really acquiesced."

This made me smile with recognition. I too, resisted his attempts to control me, and although I had not thought about this as the reason for the clashes, you are so right about the cause. In fact, my adult son had a hard time believing that his capable, strong-willed mother kept company with such a domineering man.

You write:

"Funnily enough I think that's also why the relationship with him has not bothered me as much as the encounters I've had with other Ps. "

If I remember correctly, you got out of the relationship relatively quickly. In one way, you could say that you were "lucky" that his mask slipped at an early stage. You saw behaviour that was anathema to you and you had the foresight to realise that this behaviour was ingrown. The P I knew (I refuse to call him "my P") played his cards like a real pro. I was two years into the relationship before he showed his hand. By that time, I had difficulty believing what I saw and felt, so although I reacted to it, I did not ACT on it. I was certain that the incident must be my fault and I searched my mind for how to correct my behaviour. Obviously, the P supported this point of view.

For many years, I had managed my life on my own and, according to the P, I was too independent and unused to sharing decisions with another. He maintained that I acted selfishly and without regard for his feelings. Perhaps he had a point, so I tried hard to correct my "independent and selfish" decision making. Yeah right!!!

I have not to my knowledge had a real P boss. In such a situation, where the lines are drawn in the sand from the get go, you naturally keep negative opinions to yourself in order to maintain the status quo. You are hired to do a job and it is a totally different situation. You have to toe the line or you'll be fired. You must have been tearing out your hair on a daily basis. A psychopathic boss is in a real power position - he can do just what he wants and no one can (or will) gainsay him. I have read several accounts of the damage a psychopathic boss is capable of doing and this damage is not in the mickey mouse department. A P boss does not care if he takes the whole company down with him - he only cares about what he wants. As the boss, he plays one against the other. Boards of Directors as well as employees are fair game. It must have been terrible for you.

I have had two brief encounters with two different family members, whom I suspect are either N or Ps. Luckily, the second one was after I found out about the P I knew. I recognised the underhanded manipulation for what is was and immediately stopped ALL communication. As well, I wrote long and very detailed letters to the family members most closely associated with this person, outlining all my reasons. I have NO regrets! Had I not known about N's and P's, I am sure that I would have been drawn into a long and damaging family feud.

You write:

"The reason I found it difficult to comprehend that I had encountered Ps on three fronts is because at an emotional, gut level, I think I still associate the word "psychopath" with serial killers etc."

YES! That's exactly what I thought. I had visions of a chainsaw massacre type of person, and truthfully, I did not really believe that such people actually existed. I knew NOTHING about the socically adept psychopath. A person like Ted Bundy was to my mind an anomaly rarely encountered in daily life.

You write:

"That's what the media conditions us to think."

It's good copy. It sells newspapers and magazines.

You write:

"I guess that's what society at large still thinks which is why support/recourse for people who are victimized by "regular" Ps is relatively sparse. "

Yes, and also why it is so difficult to get friends and family to believe you when you try to explain why you have ditched the 'lovely man you were seeing', been fired by your 'wonderfully considerate' boss, or why you have PDQ decided to move to another state.

If I could, I would bring formal charges against the P, but that's a very dangerous game and one I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that I would lose. P's are very charming and very clever and they are unbelievably vindictive. I am not about to lose what I have so painfully re-gained. The only thing I can do is to observe the NO CONTACT rule. It works for me!

The P has tried a few times, " I would like to visit you for few days when I am in town." Without blanching, I lie through my teeth. " I am so sorry, I have stay-over company." or "I have just landed a big account, I am too busy," Or, I will be out of town." Any excuse to stop him coming round. Luckily, he lives in another country, so chances that he would come round unannounced are almost equal to nil. I have often thought about what I would do if he did. The only thing I know, is that I would NOT let him in the door. It doesn't bear thinking about.

Take care, Sylvie,


PS: I have edited for spelling errors only. Contents is the same.

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/05/04 03:37 PM

Hi Nan,

Thanks. About the P I dated (I too prefer not to call him "my P"), we actually went out for several years. I tried to break things off after 6 months, but wasn't ready for the hysterics since I'd never encountered that kind of thing before, so we continued going out and it started to have the insidious, wearing effect that you described. I just feel incredibly lucky because I didn't marry him despite the pressures to do just that. That would have been a disaster. It didn't hurt that I met a WELL ADJUSTED, PROGRESSIVE guy (OK he was also very tall and hazel eyed) through work about a year after that. We couldn't date because of business conflicts and I think I was still very skittish. I may have let a gem slip away but at least it got my head to where I realized there are some keepers out there.

I'm with you when you say that a woman doesn't need a man to be worth something. Too bad so many women buy into that and sell themselves short in the process. Besides the worthwhile guys, in my view, like independent women.

About the P boss, it actually wasn't terrible when I worked with him. We worked together fairly well (I don't know if I want to admit to that!) perhaps because he tended to be off doing his own thing much of the time. It's towards the end when he started making requests of me that I couldn't comply with (legally/ ethically) that things got out of hand. It's since then that it's been terrible because my career has been run off the rails. I think he (and his corrupt cronies) may have overplayed their hands since there's practically zero tolerance for that of thing anymore with the slew of corporate scandals. The BOD were equally corrupt and beholden - they're interpretation of corporate governance was "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" and "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil." Just trained seals.

I've had only very intermittent contact with the P relatives and that's just because we're sometimes at the same family events (I'm supposed to be at one right now, but declined), but they're systematic undermining of my reputation in our community and elsewhere and other harassing conduct has taken a toll for sure. I'd prefer to be able to do that, just cut ties, but that hasn't worked.

My back's against the wall in both these situations (partly because they're simultaneous) and that's why I feel that it's time to get the authorities involved and let them deal with it.

I barked at one P relative a couple of months ago when she was giving me attitude at a time when a mutual relative was very sick (little narcissistic?!). To my amazement, she switched to incredible politeness, even compliance, in a nanosecond. I think that clued me into the fact that she has not encountered that side of me enough and therefore a message needs to be sent that I'm not weak and passive or else I can expect the bullying to continue indefinitely. I can understand in your case if you've moved on, that you wouldn't want to do anything to jeopardize that, it's not worth it.

It's a drag but nothing else has worked. I read a couple of excellent articles on psychological harassment recently and I've come to the conclusion that it would be to my detriment to allow it to continue unresponded to. You're absolutely right that they're vindictive, unfortunately that's a risk I'm going to have to take. Bum deal!

I'm curious, how did your relatives react to you sending them letters?

Bye for now,

Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/06/04 02:18 AM

Hiya Sylvie,

I see that I got your story somewhat wrong. My apologies.

You write:

"I just feel incredibly lucky because I didn't marry him despite the pressures to do just that. "

I would not say that it was mere luck. You "knew" something and listened to your intuition. You made an intelligent decision. How old were you then?

You write:

"It didn't hurt that I met a WELL ADJUSTED, PROGRESSIVE guy (OK he was also very tall and hazel eyed)...."


"...We couldn't date because of business conflicts and I think I was still very skittish."

I am still skittish. I think many women continue to be skittish for a long time after the P. It's been more than two years since I have seen the P, but only a year since I broke all email contact and as recently as early January that I discovered that he is a P. I am not ready for even a tall and hazel eyed man <s>. I know that I am still fearful or at the least distrusting, the latter not the best starting point for a relationship. As well, I am not a spring chicken and a relationship is not alpha and omega to me.

You write:

"About the P boss, it actually wasn't terrible when I worked with him. We worked together fairly well (I don't know if I want to admit to that!)...."

Why not! Work is work, not a relationship. The work I do is so interesting that I lose all sense of time and place when I get into it. I am totally concentrated. I really love what I do. I have read that with a P boss, the work standard "can" be of very high quality because he/she demands the best. So if I did not have to work closely with such a person, I think I would forget all about the boss and simply concentrate on delivering the goods.

"It's towards the end when he started making requests of me that I couldn't comply with (legally/ ethically) that things got out of hand."

Ah....yes....that's when it's time to get off the train. I once questioned the P's ethics. He became irate and demanded that I retract my statement. I refused and the ensuring argument really scared me. Such venom! If I relate that incident to a P boss, I can easily see how it could cost me my job and perhaps my reputation.

You write:

"My back's against the wall in both these situations (partly because they're simultaneous) and that's why I feel that it's time to get the authorities involved and let them deal with it."

Are you refering to both the work and the family situation or just the latter?

You write that your P relative backed off when you 'barked' at her. As far as I am aware, it's very unlikely that a P would back off when challenged. Your relative may not be a P. She may be a Bully and they generally back off when challenged. Bullies bully because they perceive (rightly) that the other will take it. Bullies never bully people, who they perceive as strong and willing to stand up for themselves. I your relative is a Bully and NOT a P, you have hit on the right method and a show of strength will scare her. A show of strength will NOT scare a P, who will NEVER back off. Not even in the face of legal trouble.

You write that you are 'starting to feel out of control' and that you must take a stand. Please be careful, Sylvie. The fact that you know that you are starting to feel out of control should indicate to you that you may not be thinking totally straight. You have had enough and now you want it to stop come hell or high water. I can so well understand those feelings. However, it is imperative that you think clearly and that you are aware of the possible repercussions.

You have managed to turn the tide workwise, but please do not, as the saying goes, cut off your nose to spite your face. Be very careful.

You write:

"I'm curious, how did your relatives react to you sending them letters? "

All three reacted differently but positively. One wrote back saying that I had put my finger on something that she had long suspected but been unable to articulate. She later found the strength to break off with this relative as well.

The relative reacted by writing us both different letters that merely reinforced my belief that he saw himself as a victim of the cruellest circumstances. He was very clear that we had victimized him further. A P likes playing the victim, but he doesn't play dead, which is what this relative did.

Have you initiated a response to your meddling and accusatory relatives or are you just considering a response?

I cannot reiterate it enough: Be careful.


Posted by: sarah

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/06/04 08:54 AM

Hi Nan, Sylvie and Mati,

Nan you wrote <The effect this man has on you is very negative and for different reasons you seem unable to resist him>.

I think he has this irresistable kind of effect on everyone he comes in contact with, he is very charming, and he can really, as they say, "work the room". Also he looks like Adrian Paul!, The Highlander, which doesn`t do much to help your resistance.

And you mention the very negative effect he has on me. It must be what he did to me when I still a child. Which has effected all of my personal relationships with other men, though I didn`t realise it.

He used my need for a family this time with our daughter and grandson... He knew I wanted what I`ve never had. And deceitfully... he painted me a picture of hope, and then cruelly... he took it away.

Nan you also wrote <What he wants is NOT you, but the power associated with you being available to him. It does not matter to him that your availability is on an extremely reluctant basis, so long as you ARE available.>

So true, no matter how many times I blew him off, it just made him chase harder. He likes the power he feels when I finally gave in. Then I guess he punished me for not giving in sooner, for making him work hard to get control of me. What he don`t know yet is this was the last time. I won this one. I`ve got the power to reject him and take care of my needs and he really hates that! I am NOT available to him! He will not hear anything from me, never!

Thank you Nan, you are helping me put the pieces of this puzzle together! And every post here helps me know I`m not alone. Hope I can help others too.

Back to my story:

P#1 had been calling me since his divorce, asking me turning him down. For a couple of years he`d been trying to get me to let him come over, and since my daughter was the only thing we had in common, all I talked about was her.

When I`d tell my daughter he`d called again she wasn`t at all interested. I told her that he kept on asking to see me, but she didn`t want me to see him. I told her since he wasn`t giving up, that maybe he was regretting not being close to her after all these years and for all I knew he could be trying to see me so he could establish a relationship with her...But she said she thought he was only interested in me, not her. And since he had never given her one ounce of interest or support when she was growing up, why would she think anything else.

I`ll add that this was also during the time P#2 (the Sadist) was in contact with her, (without my knowledge) pretending to be her Dad, brainwashing her. What he did, in effect, was make her wonder if I had lied to her all her life. (hope I`m making this clear... It is the madness of a P) And as far as she could tell, it looked to her like HE must have thought he was her father, but HE knew all along he wasn`t, we were legally seperated when she was conceived. He was leading her on.

Anyway, he had his other daughter (who wasn`t his real daughter either) befriend her. And the school allowed him access to her just before she graduated. (which they weren`t suppossed to do) You see, I had blocked my phone from his daughters calls so she called the school and found a way around me, and sent her a cell phone so they could talk to each other. But P#2 was behind the whole thing and my daughter didn`t know it. He had her sneaking around, making it seem like I was the bad guy, keeping her away from her only sister, who was NOT her sister NOR was she even P#2`s daughter!!!

But he planted a doubt in her mind about my truthfulness. She began to think maybe had I told her he wasn`t her Dad because I wanted to keep her away from him since he was abusive. Logical?... Maybe?... If I had ever lied to her before about such important. While he had been in and out of prison for most of his life for felonies. But he had a plan, and he needed her on His side to succeed in his plan.

Meanwhile P#1, the "child molester of my youth" was persistent, (thanks again Nan for helping with my denial). P#1 didn`t have much to say, when he found out P#2 was stalking me, or sneaking around behind my back to get at my (HIS) daughter. Why would he care about OUR safety?? Of course he never did before. He probably needed a babysitter to watch his kids from his last marriage, and I was available!

But, my daughter MADE P#1 take notice, when she told him that since P#1 was `ACTING` like he was her father that she wasn`t sure, and she wanted a DNA test so he could prove it to her? He agreed to do it and he paid for it. (I couldn`t believe he didn`t want HER to pay for it)!

I can`t tell you how stunned I was that P#2 managed to make her doubt me enough to where she needed proof! Though at the same time it was good to put it to rest. So she would know that P#2 was up to no good. I showed her the divorce papers that showed we were legally seperated at the time, proving that P#2 had always known that she wasn`t his daughter. And the DNA test wiped settled the whole thing.

So... now P#1 was put on the spot. Did he want to be a real Dad to her? Or was he just needing a babysitter, like I first thought?

Come to find out (of course) P#1 WAS just needing someone to take care of his kids, cause he was getting custody of them. He had been taking this poor woman to court for years, he has a lawyer on a retainer basis, made her fight till she went broke and he got 2 of the 3 kids. He works all over the the USA and needs a babysitter. He knew I was alone and probably lonely and available to him,... Or so he thought! What he didn`t know was that I`d had therapy, diagnosed with Major Depression, PTSD and I had learned to look for the "red flags" of the controller/abuser.

He hadn`t anticipated that I would check him out. I looked into his past and I questioned him about everything. He had hit his x-wives, (Of course, only when they deserved it, he said!)...(Huge Red Flag) But still my family said that he`s a different man now, Yeah Right!!!

Well, he was in a dangerous "Outlaw" biker club after Vietnam, one like Hell`s Angels. I found out (not from him) that they were so mean, they almost killed each other off! He was shot with a large calibur pistol, (like the one Dirty Harry carried) after he came back from the war! This was still the guy my mom wanted for me! Yeah, and she was still encouraging it, even after she KNEW all of this stuff I was finding out about him!!!

But he said he "wasn`t the same person". That, that other man was "Dead"! He said he even changed his name. Hmmmm... Well, when he told me this, then all I wanted to know about was this man that he said was dead. So, he told me, braggingly, that he was the guy that "collected the money" for the club... I said, "oh, like the Mafia"? He said, "yeah sorta", he was so cocky, and immature, like I should be impressed or something...God, I was horrified!!!, but I didn`t let it show. He said he`d been out of it for a long time. They had a ceremony where they burned his patch! (whatever that means, I`m not criminal/biker trash)...

Well later he introduced me to the one the guys he called the "X-Seargent of Arms" from the club and was gonna have him do some work on my home, which I badly need done... But I told him I wasn`t comfortable with an X-biker in my home!!! I don`t think he liked that too much, so he didn`t help me at all with anything!(since I wouldn`t let his trash do the work). What would I owe them???, I asked him. "Nothing", he said, "they are my brothers". (YEAH RIGHT!) Then I told him it sounded like they were little "lost boys" who needed a crutch, that they can`t make it on there own (like I`ve had to do all of my life). I called them immature boys like the "Spanky and Our Gang","No Girls Allowed" Club.... Of course I told him that on the phone! I`m not THAT brave... or that stupid!..

(I`m editing some of my story by request of the person who told me some of the secrets about him, who would be in danger, if P ever found out)

He did prison time for "*** *******", he shot at his wife. And these are the things he talks about to people!!!

I found out from other people that he was one of the top guys who ordered ******* and ****, that they ******* ***** ****, stole anything, ran ********* labs too. He is truely a horrible person...

Then he comes around here acting like he`s as pure as the driven snow, bragging about his respectable job he has now and how much money he makes... Amazingly, he is the Supervisor of his trade, he IS at the top.... BUT how did he get there???... They have jobs only for a cover. They never get out, they can`t. He is in "organized crime", and they are in it for life. He must think I`m really stupid.

He sure did flatter me (at first) though, saying things like, "you did such a good job raising the kids alone" and "Your a good Mom"... (Yeah?, and no thanks to you), thank God he wasn`t here ... If P#1 had come around here and tried to take my baby away from me when she was small, he would have had to kill me first... And I did tell him that!

I`ll tell more of my story later, about how P#1 suddenly dumped me... Oh, and how my mother suddenly dumped me too shortly afterward.

I hope I`m not boring you all with too many details. I`ll try to finish it the next time.

This board is helping me see things,(besides the obvious) about P#1 that I`ve been denying for too many years. Thank you Nan, and all of you for your greatly needed help!!!


... Here is something else I wrote in my journal right after he dumped me...(this is before reading about psychopaths)


Like a bad storm, you come into my life and then you leave again. After the damage is done, you disappear without a trace. You leave behind the broken, shattered pieces. But you never look back to see what you`ve caused. I was just in the path of your destruction. You have no guilt because that`s the nature of a storm. Storms cause terrible disasters, and it`s victims are caught off guard. Never prepared for their heartless fury. So swiftly they come and go. Wreaking havoc with no conscience, no direction. Leaving only pain and suffering in their wake.

Now I have to pick up the broken pieces and live on, with a little less of myself than I had before. Again, I have to rebuild what you have left behind. This time you didn`t take as much as before. Maybe I was more prepared, more aware of prote cting myself from you. As I go forward I will never forget how you are, how in your nature you are cruel and inhumane. I`ll build my walls higher and thicker this time to protect me from you. And maybe next time I`ll see you coming and I`ll run for shelter and avoid getting hurt at all. But for now, I`m a little less trusting of the world and it`s storms... that we call men.

(I edited to try and fix some things that I felt I hadn`t made clear, and some of the wording to make it more readable. Also to protect the person who told me things about P#1)
Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/06/04 10:53 AM

Hi Sarah,

Just a shortie. I will answer your post in a day or two.

You ask:

"I hope I`m not boring you all with too many details."

Not at all. Don't worry. Keep writing.

"I`ll try to finish it the next time."

You'll finish when you are ready to finish. Remember: It ain't over till it's over.

Just write, Sarah.



Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/06/04 04:29 PM

Hi there Nan
<br>No problem. Many stories to keep track off, all sad to different degrees.
<br>You're right (about it being a reasoned decision to break up with Psychopath) and I think I do sometimes give myself credit for that and ought to. I was in my late 20s. He started making comments like "over the hill" etc., I guess to scare me into getting married. Rolled right off my back.
<br>Yes, I've been skittish for a long time but also want to be in a good financial condition before getting serious with someone. Have to admit the hazel eyed man still occupies my thoughts, he's such a force of nature. I probably still think of him partly to get my mind off the Psychopath situations. Only partly now! That's nice that you're comfortable being by yourself until the right time comes along.
<br>You hit the nail on the head about a Psychopath boss having high expectations. Mine did and so I pulled out all the stops to get things done well. Actually don't mind the bar being set high. Helped a great deal that I too love my work. Yes, I guess I still recoil at showing any sociability with a Psychopath. They are self righteous aren't they, when called on anything.
<br>You asked if my back was against the wall in both situations, work and family. Yes, in a way. While I don't work with Psychopath anymore, I don't have my livelihood back and am still struggling with that. In fact, the reason I've been cranky the last couple of weeks is because if I'm going to file a lawsuit, I have to do it very soon. The assessment from a lawyer isn't good. Seems Psychopath structured it in a way that would make it difficult for me to prevail legally. Not impossible, but a big challenge. No surprise there. However, I've been gypped out of so much money that I really need to look at it thoroughly.
<br>About my relative, I too have debated whether she is just a bully or a full-blown Psychopath (pretty certain her husband has APD). Is that the same as a Psychopath? Can those two terms be used interchangeably? Her complete lack of conscience at destoying my reputation, siding with the Psychopath I dated etc., swindling people through fraudulent schemes, extramarital stuff makes me think she's more than just a bully. This is actually a point I was going to bring up anyway. I'm certain I've seen some fear or concern in all three Psychopaths when they feel that they may have pushed things too far and someone is finally going to get the authorities involved. Yet I still firmly believe that my ex and former boss are Psychopaths. I think they do have some feelings but they are able to set them aside in a ruthless, almost primal (survivalist) way that the rest of us would not be able to do so easily if at all.
<br>You're right that I have to be careful. But the Psychopath (or bully) relatives have been at it for a long time and I do not believe they intend to stop. In fact, they seem emboldened by the fact that they've gotten away with it. For instance, based on past behaviour, I believe that they would try to cause problems for me if I went back to the corporate world or if I get married.
<br>Feel a little like I'm caught in a Psychopath web. Perhaps if they have a criminal record, it will be easier for me to address it if they try to harass me in future because at least their names will be in a database.
<br>I've been concerned about my health, that's why I need to come up with a solution. It's not risk free by any means, but as I said to Mati, there's never any easy, obvious solutions when it comes to Psychopaths. I have noticed though, that they don't seem to interfere with people if they think there would be repercussions. They see me as vulnerable now because of my job situation. I've known my relative's husband for at least twenty years. Can't stand him and resent the fact that my relative expects me to adjust to and accomodate his antisocial behaviour. They were out of the country for a couple of weeks and I felt more peaceful even though they live 30 mins away and I hardly see them even normally. They use proxy harassers very well since we belong to a community.
<br>It's a tough call but I can't take more of the same. See, you understand wanting it to stop because you've been there. Some relatives seem to think that I'm sensitive or whatever. Good news is that I don't care what they think anymore.
<br>I had initiated a response by threatening to go to the police. Bad outcome, in fact I'm bothered enough by what happened that I can't talk about it. So I know to take you seriously when you caution me. However, now that I threatened to do it, if I don't go ahead I think it will make me look toothless and weak.
<br>It won't stop on it's own, that's the only thing I know for certain.
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/06/04 04:45 PM

Hi Sarah,

My post is a brief one too right now but I will try to get back to you later in the week.

You will find the more time you spend away from the P the more empowered and confident you will feel. It's almost a heady feeling after being controlled and manipulated by them for so long. When you are involved with him, he envelopes you in his world (and tentacles) in a way that makes one forget that there are normal, well adjusted men out there. You know that's his intent, to keep you vulnerable to his charms. After I broke up with the P I dated, I felt only contempt for him when I saw him. You see them for the irreversibly damaged people that they are. There's no changing that. That's the brutal truth and you'll be better off for realizing it.

You take care,

Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/07/04 02:22 AM

Hi Sylvie,

This is more than a little up front: but have you considered leaving your community and moving to another State, preferably one a few States away?

What makes me ask you this hard question are several observations.

1. You feel totally alienated from your family – in fact, they are harassing you.
2. You suggest that this harassment is in large part a community effort.
3. Your former employment is, I assume, in your home State.
4. You are self-employed now and ought to be able to continue with that.
5. You tend to stay at home, which suggest that you are fairly uncomfortable with your environment
6. Not withstanding what is happening right now, it seems to me that you have guts and determination.
7. It seems to me that if only you got away from all these soul-destroying situations, that you would heal fairly quickly.
8. With your guts and your determination you could make it anywhere.

Some tough questions. Please do not feel compelled to answer.

1. What keeps you in the community?
2. Are your ties to this community so strong that it is unthinkable to leave it?
3. Why would you choose to stay and fight a bunch of toothless-good-for-nothing relatives, whose opinion does not matter to you?
4. Why be like Custer?

You write:

“I had initiated a response by threatening to go to the police. Bad outcome, in fact I'm bothered enough by what happened that I can't talk about it.”

Yes, indeed! Bad things do happen to good people.

“ So I know to take you seriously when you caution me.”

I am glad.

” However, now that I threatened to do it, if I don't go ahead I think it will make me look toothless and weak. “

Are you so concerned with how it will look to others that you forget the cost to yourself? Since you have no regard for these relatives who, by the way, are so weak and toothless that they resort to proxy harassers, why worry even a little what they think?

You seem to be spending a great deal of your available energy on a pointless enterprise. Why not take that energy and use it where it matters – for yourself? Leave pride alone. What good it is to win the battle, but lose the war?

Please realise, Sylvie, that I do understand your position and your feelings. It takes guts and determination and a strong sense of self worth and self-preservation to allow for the fact that pride and a desire for revenge (oh yes, I know), are short-term satisfactions that pale in the face of losing your Self.

In the words of Dr. Phil: ‘Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?’

Thinking of you,


Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/08/04 06:53 AM

Hi Nan,

Thanks for your post - I'm thinking about what you said. I'll respond to it on the weekend.

Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/08/04 11:23 AM


You realise, I hope, that my observations and questions are for you alone. There is no need for you to answer anything in this public sphere.

Should you wish to, you may write me privately. it can be done so that we both retain absolute privacy. You can write to Dianne, who will copy your message and send it to me. If you do, I will reply to you through Dianne. It will take a little time for the messages to wind their way back and forth. It's merely a suggestion.

This mode of communication is not something I normally wish to engage in. However, if it appeals to you, Sylvie, let me know.


Posted by: sarah

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/09/04 05:11 AM


I Know Now


From my journal
Sept. 3, 2003

When you touch me so perfectly, I cry... It`s so beautiful, I cry... Your hands understand what my skin craves... They speak to my body things that words could never say... I feel joy and sadness, pain and pleasure at once! When you touch me... I sigh, I tremble, I cry... But why? I don`t understand it, but my body does... Your hands know what I need, they know just what to do. My skin has been waiting for your touch... My cold, deprived skin has been dying. Your hands warm my neglected skin and make it live again.... I need your touch. I need it so I won`t die. Please, touch me again...

"There are none so blind as those that will not see"

BUT HE WAS THE ONE BEING EMOTIONAL...(anger out of the blue)

I still didn`t know what a P was

From my jounal
Feb. 15, 2004

Is that what you call love? Your love is cold. It is dead. Your heart is filled with resentment and paranoid delusions. You are afraid of being seen for the little boy that you really are, so you hide behind this macho veneer. Outside you look calm, but inside you`re raging and hurting and wanting someone to know.

You`re pathetic, and it`s really too bad that you don`t know how to open up. You almost did this time. You just couldn`t let me see the real you. You think the real you is too bad for people to see I guess, so you hide. What you don`t understand is that I can see through all that macho stuff you present to the world. I can see the real man, and the hurting, angry little boy inside you too. And I`m not afraid of that real person in there. What I fear is that cold, false man that you show the world.

I could have helped the hurting man inside and I could have helped clam the angry little boy that needs to learn to control his impulses and grow up. But you wouldn`t let me go all the way inside of your heart. You rejected me before I could go further. How sad you must be... I know how bad you needed me. I`ve never felt that needed by anyone in the same way you needed me. It`s in everything about you, you were reaching for help, but you`re afraid of needing someone. You`re afraid I`ll reject you for being needy. So you rejected me, and you broke my heart again!

I`ll get over it though, and you`ll still be the lost little boy in a macho man`s body... Oh, Well...
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/09/04 04:58 PM

Hi Nan,

I was starting to suspect that you are a little psychic, now I know for sure! : ) At a minimum, you are astute (and as I say that, it makes me shake my head wistfully that Ps can victimize so many different personalities).

That's the challenge in writing about these issues in a public forum. I've been trying to find a balance between providing enough detail so that the situation can be understood, but not provide so much that it gives away my privacy/identity (or is too onerous to read). Having said that, it's been helpful to post here, get feedback, and read about other people's experiences. I'm glad the forum exists.

I will post a partial response here on the weekend just to clarify some points and also take you up on your offer to write to you through Diane.

Thanks for that.

Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/10/04 01:45 AM

Hi Sylvie,

Thank you <smile>.

I will wait for your response that will be coming through Dianne.

Just take your time.


Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/12/04 03:43 PM

Hi Nan,

I have considered re-location several times but it's not an option (at least anytime soon) for a number of reasons that I will expand upon in my email.

I'd like to qualify some of the points you made:

1. It's not my whole family that's harassing me by any means. It's a relative and her husband. However, like many in my position, I have found myself feeling somewhat frustrated and annoyed that other family members seem either indifferent or in denial about what's been going on. While some have at times acknowledged it, they have never really taken a public stand in my support. I'm not even sure if it is reasonable to expect it but I sure would have like them to have done something like that.

2. The harassment doesn't come from the whole community, far from it. It's just at social events I attend, some individuals will makes comments or ask questions that are clearly driven by slander they've heard. I guess I wouldn't mind so much if they asked directly since that would give me a chance to respond, however most people don't have the guts to do that. In fact, there are some in the community who seem to make a concerted effort to be friendly towards me, I believe because they disapprove of or are even disgusted by the character assassination that it is. Some people are just decent and well-bred.

3. Yes my former employer is in the same city in fact. However, I do not believe that that in itself has any negative implications for me. They caused enough shareholders to lose money, broke laws and offended still others that they have made many enemies. I, on the other hand, had excellent relationships with all our common business associates (shareholders included) and was well regarded. In fact they expressed displeasure to management about my departure so even P boss was partially muzzled. Felt good! I believe he did try to badmouth me within the department but since he had repeated problems with people in that position, those with their heads screwed on right knew who the common denominator was. Really the main problem I see from having worked there (on top of significant financial losses) is any taint from my affiliation with them. Sort of like anyone who worked at finance in Enron, Worldcom etc.

4. Will elucidate self-employment in the email.

5. As far as staying at home, it is in large part because I'm watching my finances and probably because I'm cocooning as well. Once my financial situation improves, I'm on the first flight out to the "mostest funnest" place I can think of, preferably one with a good beach and a supply of mojitos (and I hardly drink). Ha!

6. Thank you profusely for #6. Some days I think that and other days I feel like a wimp. I'm sure this is typical. So it's good to have the re-inforcement.

7. Yes, I believe that too, even more because I am just thirsting to have a clear head and to just LIVE, attend to relationships that I feel I've neglected, and pursue my dreams. I suspect that's something many posters can relate to.

8. Thanks again, that's means a lot. It isn't a co-incidence that the places I think of going are all scenic and wild. I am by nature, fairly free-spirited so I haven't reacted well to feeling confined by financial or other constraints. The good news is that people in my profession are well compensated so if I can get it together, I can be self reliant and live well. I feel grateful for that.

A couple more comments. I do not feel that I am driven by revenge even though it has entered my mind. I've had many opportunities to be vengeful both on the personal and professional front, but have not acted on them. I am definitely angry though and try to curb it through exercise etc. I don't think I was clear when I mentioned "looking toothless". I don't care about it from an ego standpoint, but more in terms of inviting escalating harassment if I'm perceived to be weak or ineffectual. Not just by the relative but by others who have seen it as an opportunity. Really, just self preservation. What I know for sure is, I don't want to live a victimized life, where I am constantly rocked back on my heels and having to defend and rebuild. I see it as teaching them how to treat me.

Yes, I agree, better to be happy than right. Your comment about Custer made me chuckle.

Apologize if I've rehashed anything and thanks for taking the time.

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/25/04 07:54 AM

Hi Nan,

Sorry it's taken me a while to reply to you. I had intended to respond this morning but now it seems that they have changed something on that email system and my inbox is at "0", as in all my emails have disappeared. Not sure what's going on - I'm going to have to look into it. Perhaps it's something that can be easily addressed. Hopefully so!

Bye for now,
Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/25/04 02:09 PM

Hi Sylvie,

No problem.

Would it help you if I resend?

In any case, do not worry.

Take care,


Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/26/04 07:51 AM

Hi there Nan,

Apparently they are switching to a new platform and new site. I don't think the inbox is receiving messages right now because the site is in transition. I guess I missed the PM on all of this since I don't use it regularly. So I will send Diane a new email address once I get set up - probably should anyway so she can update my registration info.

There were a couple of questions I was going to ask you on here anyway.

You said:

"You seem to be spending a great deal of your available energy on a pointless enterprise."

Curious what led you to that conclusion - is it that I've posted about it several times?

Also, I've been meaning to ask you about the following quote in particular.

You said (a while back):

"I believe that on a very profound spiritual level we are responsible for everything that happens to us. BUT....and that's a BIG but, it's not always helpful to be told that we are ultimately respondsible for our own suffering."

I was wondering what you meant by that (the first part of it)?



Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/26/04 09:26 AM

Hi Sylvie,

You write:

"There were a couple of questions I was going to ask you on here anyway. "

No problem!

"You said:"

"You seem to be spending a great deal of your available energy on a pointless enterprise."

Curious what led you to that conclusion - is it that I've posted about it several times?"

Guaranteed not! But to properly answer your question, I would have to go back and check all our posts, and I don't have time right now. My question is taken out of its context for I would never say such a thing just because you,or anyone, post about the same thing.

"Also, I've been meaning to ask you about the following quote in particular.

You said (a while back):

"I believe that on a very profound spiritual level we are responsible for everything that happens to us. BUT....and that's a BIG but, it's not always helpful to be told that we are ultimately respondsible for our own suffering."

I was wondering what you meant by that (the first part of it)?"

Just what I said! I cannot explain it any better. I lean towards the teachings of the Dalai Lama, if that information can help you better understand what I meant.

Take care,

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/26/04 12:07 PM

Hi Nan,

"Guaranteed not! But to properly answer your question, I would have to go back and check all our posts, and I don't have time right now. My question is taken out of its context for I would never say such a thing just because you,or anyone, post about the same thing."

Fair enough, there's no rush. It wasn't apparent to me what led you to think that. I guess when someone posts about a situation repeatedly, it could suggest that they are very bothered by it and therefore expending a lot of time and energy on that particular issue.

About the Dalai Lama, I have some knowledge of his Buddhist philosophies so it does clarify it somewhat. It's a profound statement, even more so on a board like this (I know you acknowledged that).

Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/26/04 01:20 PM

Dear Sylvie,

I am an intensely private person and because I am deaf, I live in a world of silence.

In this silence there exists another kind of music than the one most people hear. So, I hear.....with my heart, not with my ears.

Without actually understanding, or knowing why or how, you appeared to have understood this.

Somehow you lost heart, and I cannot say that I blame you.


Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/26/04 01:46 PM

Hi Nan,

I know what you mean in terms of being intensely private. I'm that way too. Posting such personal issues on this board is a big deal for me. In fact, for my part, I think it has been to my detriment to be private by nature since I have internalized a lot.

I'm not sure what you mean by the following:

"Somehow you lost heart, and I cannot say that I blame you."

Lost heart in what way? Do you mean in general?


Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/26/04 02:36 PM


Re: being private. I have learned to post about my experience with the P, but I am not interested in posting about my life in general. I do not want to discuss religion or philosophy, or otherwise reveal too much about myself. My last post to you, short as is was, revealed more about me than what I have written in 175 posts.

"Lost heart in what way? Do you mean in general?"

No! In relation to what you appeared to have understood.

Good thoughts,

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/26/04 02:56 PM

Hi again Nan,

No I'm not particularly interested in long discussions about religious beliefs either - the subject matter here is heavy enough as it is.

I still don't understand the other part of what you said, about what I appear to have understood and about losing heart. I'm not going to ask again though, I don't want to be tedious : ).

Take care
Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/27/04 07:54 AM

Hi again Sylvie,

One of the ways to ensure that the person you are dealing with is not a P is to ask questions. If the answers to your questions are not up to par or confuse you or make you feel wrong in some way, then you are right to pursue your line of inquiry.

However, I am not a P. I am happy to answer questions on the nature of P’s and to help you as much as I am capable of doing.

Towards that end, I have taken the time to write you a reply to a very long personal letter. I believe that my reply was as caring and as personal as one can expect from a comparative stranger.

Instead of a personal reply, you have chosen to publicly ask me some rather leading questions that I am clearly not comfortable answering because:

1. A proper answer would take a great deal of time and thought.
2. They enter into my personal sphere.
3. A possible answer may enter into YOUR personal sphere.

What I am willing to discuss on a personal level, differs greatly from what I am willing to discuss in a public forum.

I am very sorry that you have not understood my answers, and I apologise for my unwillingness to further elaborate on, what to me, constitutes personal questions.



Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/27/04 10:09 AM

Hi Nan,

I've noted your post but I do not have the energy or time to respond to it now (beyond acknowledging it). I will say that your seeming assumption about my questions are completely misguided and surprising. I did already tell you that the email provider is in transition to a new site and platform which is why I provided Diane with a new email address and I did appreciate your email response.

Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/27/04 11:08 AM

Hi Sylvie,

You write:

"...your seeming assumption about my questions are completely misguided and surprising."

I am sorry!

However much I lean towards the teachings of the Dalai Lama, I am not enlightned. Not by a long shot. I am a person with the same faults and foibles as anyone else. I can be hurt, I can be impatient and I make mistakes. Just like many of the former P victims here, I too have an ongoing battle with the issue of trusting other people.



Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/27/04 06:50 PM

Hi Nan,

No problem, we all have misunderstandings. Just threw me off that's all, because I was coming at it from a totally different place. I'll catch up with you later in the week. Long day. Feel a little like flippin' Sisyphus when in the midst of dealing with these P situations - well at least the analogy makes me smile.

Take care,

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/02/04 08:32 AM

Hi Diane,

I was wondering if you received my new email address that I sent to you last weekend. I'm asking because you normally acknowledge emails really quickly but this time around I haven't heard back.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/02/04 09:32 AM

Hi sylvie,

I didn't receive your email, could you please resend? You can also go to "My Home" to change to your new email address so that your file is updated.


Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/02/04 11:06 AM

Hi Diane,

Thanks - I updated my email contact on my profile. The email address I used for you was because I couldn't access my email at that time and couldn't remember your other email address. Since it didn't bounce back to me I assumed it's active.

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/02/04 11:27 AM

Hi Nan,

Just to elaborate on my previous response, there are times when I read postings here when I come across a statement that raises questions for me. However I don't always get to ask them right away. I had tripped over the statement you made a while back and had intended to ask where you were coming from in saying that. Also it was always my intent to continue posting here since as has been mentioned before the back and forth discussion is helpful to both posters and viewers.

To the extent that you felt your personal space was encroached on (and I still don't understand how that is) - I regret that - it was never my intent.

Also, while I intend to try and be careful to avoid Ps in my business and personal dealings going forward, I don't see Ps everywhere and perhaps I'm fortunate for that. I think that's a really serious and profound conclusion to reach about someone and I don't treat it lightly.

Like others here dealing with P situations, it's barely all I can do to conserve my energy and direct it towards resolving those and moving forward.

Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/06/04 01:19 AM

Hi Sylvie,

I fully understand and appreciate how difficult it is to move forward while in a P situation. I also think it is clear by now that you have my sympathy - if not, I would surely never have agreed to communicate privately, something I have not before contemplated doing with a poster.

As well, I have done my utmost to answer your posts with care and concern and as quickly as possible. Your situation is indeed a difficult one because you have more than one P in your your immediate life.

"To the extent that you felt your personal space was encroached on (and I still don't understand how that is) - I regret that - it was never my intent."

I am aware that your intent was not to encroach on my personal space. Like you, I am an intensely private person and there are subjects both inside and outside of P-business and P-situations that I will not publicly go into except in the most cursory manner. I believe that on thinking it over you will likely agree that that holds true for you as well. I am fairly intuitive and because I am deaf, I have developed this intuition to a point where I am able to decode the written word (read between the lines) in ways that most people simply cannot. Sometimes I forget that other people cannot do this and an answer that, to me, is subtle but clear, will appear to others as nothing but evasive nonsense. That may possibly be how you have read my answers to you.

Since writing, technical, psychological and otherwise, is my bread and butter I can also be very clear if I so choose.

However, personal truth is relative! Long ago, a friend said something to me about telling the as-you-see-it-truth that has stayed with me.

"Is it necessary? Is it useful? Is it time?"

I try very hard to keep those three conditions in mind. Words have power!

While truth can be freeing, I think it is important to remember that it is as difficult to speak the truth as it is to hear it.

Warm regards,


Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/07/04 06:15 AM

Hi Nan,

Thanks for your post. I will write back on the weekend when I have more time in general for these kinds of things.

Bye for now,
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/09/04 01:58 PM

Hi Nan,

I am aware that I have your sympathy and know for sure that you have responded quickly (publicly and privately)- I haven't questioned any of that and in fact I believe I have expressed appreciation for it. Really I started posting here to gain some knowledge and encountering people who can relate helps.

I'm fairly perceptive too so it became apparent that you were suggesting that I had some reason(s) other than the technical e-mail issue to not respond to you. However, your underlying reasons for saying that seemed cryptic and the whole P thing came out of left field for me. Fact is I couldn't be bothered to come up with some story like that - I would just say I had reservations for whatever reason applied. To the extent my responses to anyone are not prompt, I think it should be obvious to anyone in a P situation why that might be. Also, I believe I've said that while I find it helpful to post here in some ways, there are other times when it can be draining. That's just the nature of these topics.

I couldn't agree more that personal truth is relative.


Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/15/04 06:15 PM

10/14/04 02:33 AM

Hi Outsider,

You write:

"I miss him so much as a brother--it makes me sick that he is dead."

In your first post, you said something very wise about his life. You said: "It was his choice."

He fought a valiant battle to escape from drugs and alcohol. He managed, against almost impossible odds, to make a good life for himself. It seems that he would have permanently succeeded if not for your sister. He was, in many, many ways a strong man made of the right stuff and he was a survivor. In spite of his horrific behaviour when drunk and on drugs, he had within him the power to BE, in the best sense of the word. And he used this power to become someone capable of loving himself and therefore being loved by others.

You write:

"I want to walk away from it all and forget it, be strong, forget it. Be normal, trust people, get a life. "

I think this "brother" of yours is loving you from somewhere. I think he wants you to be strong, he wants you to be normal and to be safe and content. He showed you that it is possible - but that you have to want it. You have to want it more than anything else. You have to bring all your personal power to bear and you have to believe in yourself. He did! Didn't he?

"But something essential and vital gets cracked at the axis--the very base of your being and it appears it just cannot be fixed."

He is your rare example that it IS possible. That it CAN be fixed. He did not allow the odds to scare him into submission. He did not give up. Every time he fell, he picked himself up and started anew. Yesterday is gone - there is only today, the here and NOW.

It seems to me, that one way to give his life meaning, to honour his being and his will to become, could be for you to succeed where ultimately he failed.

Perhaps you could think of him as your guide towards the light. Perhaps you could think of him holding his hand over you, protecting you against the darkness within yourself. An essential part of him was filled with light and he used the power of this light to love himself. In learning to love himself, he knew that he could love others.

You are strong. Use your strength and to help you, allow the best of him to guide and love you.

It is your choice!


10/14/04 06:08 AM

Hi again Nan, You are a very insightful person... tell me, are you a professional who helps run this board like Dianne?
Funny you should say these things b/c I have been thinking them.
Only one thing bothers me--ultimately what took him out was low self esteem. That last conversation I had had w/ him on my cell phone before he gave up and picked up, I did not mention that in addition to saying he loved her and couldn't live without her, he said he "was a worthless piece of sh#t"

After 4 years of living by the word of God and putting up with her daily verbal abuse and working like a dog on the roof and getting umteen promotions and being groomed for lead sales guy for new contracts and spending all his spare time doing for others, in the final analysis-- he felt worthless.

But what you say about him is so true. And he most definately did defy the odds and he had a light in his big bright blue eyes and a huge smile you wouldn't believe. It's what everyone refers to in his online guestbook entrys (obit in the newspaper) and he was my spiritual guide for the last few years and I always listened closely so very very closely but did not act on his advice. We never spoke of nonsense: just the meaning of life. He was very big on gratitude. I talk to him. I look to him for strength. Last night I went into denial and imagined he put his toe tag on someone else and escaped from the hospital. He did not look anything like himself at the viewing. I laughed and cried at the same time b/c if anyone could pull it off, he could. After all those years in penetentaries when he was younger (and yes, he was front page news as an escape some 30 years ago--it embarrassed the hell out of him to mention it--they had his picture on the front page) any way--- if anyone could pull it off, it was him. He was not academically smart--never bothered. But he was a clever man more street smart than anyone and then when he found recovery, gifted by God, a natural teacher and shared it.
I need to find my way financially. My daughter and I have been trapped in poverty and I can't find my way out no matter how hard I try.

Wanted to mention about your previous post too, Dan would fly into "spells" venemous ranting and raving spells about his hatred of police.
This was years before he had any run-ins with the law.

thanks nan

10/14/04 06:35 AM

Hi Outsider,

I will get back to your post later in the day.

I just want to mention that I am NOT a psychologist or any kind of therapist.

I am a professional but it is in a totally different sphere.

Take care,

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/15/04 06:21 PM

10/14/04 10:29 AM

Hi Outsider,

You write:

"I need to find my way financially. My daughter and I have been trapped in poverty and I can't find my way out no matter how hard I try. "

Poverty is a horrible state where you can appear to be running in place. Concommittant with the poverty there is often a sense that life is not ever going to change and that state of mind is in itself enough to create depression.

You write that you are depressed. Of course you are! You have gone through a lot in the last year or so, and there is not person anywhere who would not be adversely affected if it had happened to them.

If you can, try to be patient with yourself. Healing takes time! You write (in another post) that you have had therapy and that it has helped you. Will the State perhaps support you in getting scaling fee or maybe even free therapy? Have you checked out the possibilities?

You have also written that you are on Disability. I realise that this income is not going to be a 'walk in the park', but have you tried to find other Governmental ways that the State can up your income to a supportable level? Right now, it seems that it would be difficult for you to take on a job, simply because you are so depressed.

Once, a long time ago, I too fell into a crack in the floor and it took a lot of time and effort to get back up. While I cannot say that I know exactly what you are going through, I can say that I have been poor and depressed at the same time, so I have some idea of what you are going through.

I also know that it can get better with time. Today, I am fine and my life is good. I had to work at it, and I had to accept help from other people and more importantly, I had to be willing to use the help I was given. In the beginning, I could not stop 'singing' the old poor-me song about, "Yes, but.......????"

When I stopped 'singing' that stupid song, I started to see what you already know - That I had a choice.

Sometimes the choice was between a rock and a hard place, but slowly, as I learned to accept a measure of responsibility for what happened, the choices available to me became real choices.

Today, I can choose among several choices and only VERY rarely do I find myself between a rock and a hard place. But when I do, I remember that I have been there before and that the pendulum always swings back. I am alive!

You are too<smile>,


10/15/04 06:07 AM

Hey there Nan...again,
I am working on that Poor me. Been reminding myself of that one when I need to. It's easy to go there. It's easy to get on a rant and blame too. This has become one son-of-a-gun competitive society where the sharks take all.
I wish I were dumber and could be happy at a Union job doing some stupid task over and over again listening to my coworkers talking about spongebob and other idiot stuff.
I lost my way.

I had the brains to be an attorney or a writer or any number of things and it got all screwed up. My resume looks like Gulliver's Travel's--even I have no clue where I worked or when anymore. I have strung together a couple of part time jobs under the table so we can survive but we need to be able to LIVE.

Being a single parent w/o family certainly makes it tough. My best friend works in retail as a manager and makes $52 a year and even she is exhausted all the time with the crazy hours and has no kids. This is something I could walk into and get trained into . I have a new prayer I say about the dilemna. Because I have a BA in English Lit and b/c I was one of the last to successfully declare bankruptsy on student loans, I qualify for about nil on aid. Tried that route with ever fiber of my being for about 8 months everyday a few years back. Tried pushing papers in an office-- guess what? I managed to find a P boss!!!! He was cold and mean and incapable of any feeling or emotion and scarey. The FBI should hire us to root out these characters. So I pray and pray and work these p t jobs and think about who am I really. What could I do that would pay and not make me miserable and crazy with the stress of it and the redundancy of it.
I need that prayer answered.

Thanks Nan.

You know, the depression does make a job you don't like an impossible burden to take. Feel like a bird in a cage. I am quite the misfit. Would do well as a Bohemian on an island running a cafe. But I waant that challenging job. It is where the self esteem will come from.


10/15/04 07:51 AM

Hi Outsider,

I surely know what you mean when you say that you wish yourself capable og being happy with a factory assembly job. Still, a Union job would be reasonably well paid.

I have worked at some truly crummy jobs to get myself through school. I was close to 40 when I started going to University for a BA and an MA. No, I did not go on a scholarship. I was divorced and had financial obligations so without working the idea of University was OUT! I had always wanted an academic education and close to 40, I decided that it was now or never. It was hard, but am I glad that I did it. Even afterwards I took some jobs that I would never put on my resume.

Only a very few people are able to work at something they truly enjoy. As far as I know there is no such thing as a stress less job. Like almost everyone, you will simply have to compromise somewhere. But it is possible to find or create a job that is close to something that suits your style and personality. Or work a crummy job part time, while finding ways to create a better job situation.

"What could I do that would pay and not make me miserable and crazy with the stress of it and the redundancy of it."

What are you good at?
What special talents do you have?
Try to compose a list of things that you know you can do or that you enjoy doing.

For example: Do you like animals? In many major cities walking dogs can be very profitable. You are out in the fresh air, you get exercise, and if you like dogs and can walk more than one at a time, you can make a pretty penny.

Can you teach others? Homework help: You have a BA in English Lit. You could teach high school students how to approach a story. How to write an outline, a short essay or a major paper.

Do you like doing research? You could help undergrad student compile research material. Or if you are really good at it, compile research material for grad students, writers or even major companies.

You can write! How about writing articles for women's magazines? Come up with a good topic and suggest writing an article about it. At first, you may have to do a few freebies, but if you are good at it, they WILL eventually pay.

Try to make a list and see where it takes you.


10/15/04 08:02 AM

I read this post with horror the other day. Then today I was reading the archives and laughing my a$$ off about an entry from "kris" about the garbage collector husband!? Is this one in the same? forgive me. I never heard of such INCREDIBLY INSANE BEHAVIOR whereas the violence I Could relate to. I know you did not intend to be funny in the archive, if indeed it was you, but you have a flair for the pen you know. I am sorry I can't be more helpful at this time--I am pretty raw.
Wish you well thanks for your input on my other post


10/15/04 08:25 AM

hi nan,
Blabber mouth is back-- see how pathetically lonely I am these days.
Nan--I adore almost worship animals. Always have, the right dog at the right moment can chase every singel dark cloud away and for one who was indoctrinated into the Catholic Church-which is more like an ethnicity, I really have always found God mostly in nature. The engineering of one simple insect is so much more valuable and magnificent than the Taj Mahal... it is life!!!

Anyway, this city, though close to NYC and Phil--not close enough, is not lucrative enough for dog walking. Have done pet sitting but these days everyone and their grandmother is doing it.

I LOVE RESEARCH. A natural born sleuth. Wouldn'd know where to begin AND have also thought about writing articles---NAN, I am so stuck---I have no clue how to start or even pick a subject matter. I am frozen in place, and all my life my English professors asked me to follow through with writing--saying of course I had a long way to go but all saying I had talent.

I take care of a boy--minimally and it pays well for the # of hours I put in and is convenient for my daughter and myself. The saving grace to this job is I am so damned bored that it is a perfect set up to read: otherwise I never can sit still and read. But with this job, in between my fake conversation with him, "hey buddy, how you doing over there, want anything" he plays his nintendo and I read my book. He's a good enough little guy just not one that particulary took my breath away and made me want to learn catch or something.

The other job is hostessing at an Italian restaurant weekends which I love but can only do on tranquilizers. I love everything Italian, fall asleep to the music every single night--was born in Southern Germany but fantazise that Josh Groban (since he's 20's and I am 40's is my long lost brother visiting my restaurant---oh I always wished I had a brother). Anyway, the beauty of that culture---I am extremely visual--and as hostess no one bothers me and I am a big picture thinker so the job works well for me b/c I have to keep the front of the house organized. I had problems with it briefly being out of my mind w/ grief but am getting it back together now and am good at it... on the tranquillizers.

I am trying hard presently not to lecture my father again (briefly and humbly about a nix on a jury trial for my sis

Thanks Nan
oh Nan,
I have had more crappy jobs than you could shake a stick at--honestly. My friend said my picture should be next to "underachiever" in the dictionary.
If life were an 8 course dinner recipe, mine would be that metal square thing they fill with slop for the hogs.
If there was a way to mess it up, I did. But sheeze--what I crew that I "came up with"


10/15/04 09:16 AM


has any doctor ever tried you on any of the stimulant medications? Its just the more you say about your self, your life, those around you and the amount that you are writing (which is just cool btw), makes me think you've got a degree of hyperactivity running through you, and this responds better to stimulants to suppressants.
Just a thought.

I am also very visual and I have a nice picture of you in my mind out front of house.


Edited by ktbilly (10/15/04 10:18 AM)

10/15/04 04:26 PM

If some kind of writing job interests you, have you heard of You can post a profile either under a courtesy (no-fee) listing or have an enhanced listing for $5 a month. There are other pricier options too. They have all sorts of jobs including editing, proofreading, speechwriting etc. - there's quite a range. It's basically a services marketplace to connect potential clients (that want to outsource projects) and service-providers. Great use of the internet. There's probably others like it too.

Take care,
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/15/04 06:26 PM

Hi Outsider,

In fact, you are NOT a blabbermouth. However, I think you are right when you say that you are lonely. And I realise that you feel stuck.

I agree with whatever professor who has told you that you should write. You DO know how to write and you have a lovely self-irony that, while a product of pain, could also be a saving grace because it allows to see yourself from afar. You give me the feeling that you are able to see the ludicrous aspects of life, and I think it is fair to say that have had more than your share.

About talent: In my FIRST year in Uni. one of my professors (about my age) said that I talent. He offered to help me with my writing. Ecstatic, I agreed. I had visions of cosy talks about literature etc. etc.. Boy was I wrong! He was ruthless with me. He tore down my best writing. He made me write the same story again and again, over and over. I cried when I got home. He made me analyse the story, " Hills like white elephants", and I had NO clue how to do it. Every analysis was wrong, wrong, wrong and I was one very frustrated woman. It was pure hell! I have never forgotten that dang story <smile>.

But then, just as I was about to give up, he praised me. I knew that the praise was deserved for I worked VERY hard in spite of my tears and my frustrations. Praise was not an every day or even every week commodity - there was a great deal more stick than carrot. He helped me, twice a week, through a semester and then we had to stop.

A few years later, I realised what he had done for me. He had taken a novice adult student without so much as a clue and made me into the succesful grad student I became. One day, I ran into him on the street, and I could tell him how much I appreciated what he had done for me. He said, that he had only helped, I had DONE the work myself.

So what if you have messed up? That was yesterday....

Today is NOW.

There is a story in my native language (which is not English).

" 'Talent', the Lord said, 'is not free'".

You have already paid in gold coin, so don't waste your talent!


PS: We have a section called General Discussion, where we can discuss general information about Psychopaths. Since our last posts have gone off topic I will move our discussion over to the thread: General Discussion. I will wait an hour or so to give you a chance to see this PS which I have added after I wrote the post.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/18/04 05:53 AM

well hello all you nice people,
It only took me half a week an an e-mail or 2 to Dianne to find these posts. Oh Dianne, Nan, whoever, Sylvie, (I must re-read) I would love to be in the grips of one of those dang merciless writing professors. I HAVE had a taste of them. And oh with the life I have lead, there is lots of emotion to draw from that would eventually help to be an effective story teller.
You know you guys, my sister murdering her husband has turned my world upside down in another way entirely and unforesee. We all know about family mythology and the crazy roles we are assigned.... I was raised being told how kind and loving and generous and wonderful my sister was and how cold and all things opposite I was. I believed it but it always made me scratch my head too-- something wasn't right. Going back through the family history, it was all a lie perpetrated by the powerful Matriarch my Mother and in many many ways quite the opposite were true. She's had violent tendencies since she is a wee child and a meaness and a fight in her since the get-go. My dear old Gran, we lied to her and said my sis was driving a car and her husband was her passenger and he died in the accident they had (rather than tell her about the murder) and that the accident was not my sister's fault. Well, talking to my often times senile Gran who was VERY lucid yesterday, you would have though we had told her the truth. She went on a rant about how "I never thought it would happen in my family... and that poor man... and she used to pinch your legs and they'd be all full of marks all the time Sue and I used to get so mad and your parents never said a word. That girl has a meaness right here (she hits her heart with her fist) and says if she doesn't get it out something worse is going to happen. !?!?!?
There will be a healing for me.
I have gone through life feeling like a substandard creature and reinforced it with the "P" father of my child, and a string of loser boyfriends I tried to "save," am set up for couseling w/ group at a clinic but may change and go for a private counselor instead as this place always throws alot of addicts in the mix and I am tired of them.
Thanks you all.
Work IS THE CRITICAL FACTOR for me. LUCRATIVE work. Sorry the post was long but I was MIA from the board Will check out that web site for free lancing

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/19/04 06:17 AM

Feel like I killed the thread...someone mentioned me as hyperactive-- yes-- tried a stimulent med and found after 6 -10 hours a terrible mood swing. Hard for me to sort out lots of stimuli. Easier for me to ignore it and move on. Ruined the flow here of the thread. Very hyper. I believe sometimes this sort of personal damage is a result not unrelated to post traumatic stress syndrome. All my life there has been at least one character very close to me whom I never knew what would happen next. When I picked up the phone or walked in the room, would it be heaven or hell? A life time of this and I believe you can be permanently on alert for danger and "jumpy" like a prey animal. You don't see horses or gazelle lying around smelling the flowers and sunbathing but you see wolves and tigers doing it all the time. Life has made me into the prey side of the human species. Broken down into it's simplest terms, that is what we are talking about here. The P's don't come to eat us but they come to use us up in every other way and if we are lucky enough to figure it out and get away, we are always on alert for more of them.
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/19/04 01:08 PM


There are enough different threads that often posters tend to congregate on one or two at a time so don't take it personally at all.

I'm sorry that you've had such bad experiences, especially involving family members (that's extremely rough) and I hope you find some solace here.

Posted by: Nan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/19/04 01:24 PM

Sylvie and Outsider,

No, please do not take it personally Outsider. Sylvie is right!

Also, please remember that there are only a few people replying to many post and that it takes time as well as energy and the day is only so long. There is work, friends and family that also demands attention.

We all try to do the best we can with the time we have <smile>.

Take care,

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/19/04 02:29 PM

I'm hyper too, Outsider.

This forum can be too... a bit of fire-fighting goes on every once in a while when the board gets busy. All of a sudden you think, "Hmm... did nobody like my last post?" when they have gone off to fight a bigger fire somewhere else on the board. But its also an ADD characteristic ~ taking things personally, so I give myself a talking to and try to control the knee-jerk reaction. I not always successful though!

Hmm, you were permanantly switched on because you never felt safe. Interesting. I was permenantly switched on as a child too, but for me it came from neglect... subconsciously I was petrified I was going to be left behind so I could never relax.

The first time I was left without my sister at a friend's house (aged 4) I got into such a state I collapsed. I was fine as long as I was with my sister (she's a year and 2 weeks older than me, we look like twins and were brought up like twins).

My mum is ADD too and I think that is why I have identity issues now... my therapist can find no evidence of maternal mirroring. I learnt everything by copying my sister, so she always took the lead.

I think my Mum is BPD too. Do you think there's anything like this going on with your Mum? I mean do you think that some of the issues you have, have come down from your Mum... its one thing to have these things genetically, when they exist in your nurture environment too I don't think you stand a chance!

Still, bar all the P-abuse, I love life in the fast lane Outsider... I hope you do too.

Kind regards


Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/20/04 07:53 AM

10/19/04 04:11 PM

Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime?

tell me your experiences: do they "spontaneousely" muster up a tear at an appropriate moment?
ARE THEY THAT GOOD that they can do that quietly without going into a histrionic monolog? How many are that refined and educated to not go over the top and do this subtley ?
Any one with experience with this "skill?" less is more--"refined cunning"-----is it real?

10/20/04 02:13 AM

Re: Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime?

Dear Outsider,

We all, without exception, understand the strong need to find and recieve as much help and information as we can on the subject of the P in our lives.

It would be much easier for you if you could stay with the same thread rather than keep creating new threads. KT, used the fine analogy of liking replying to putting out fires. We try <smile>, but too many different 'fires' become confusing with the result that there is not enough water to go round.

Each and every one of your questions are important. For myself, I can say that it becomes difficult to keep track of the many different threads, who started the thread and what are the questions that I need to attend to. When I know that the thread, XYZ, is your thread, I can easily relate to the information you have relayed in other posts in THAT thread and I can compose a reply without having to go all over the board for information that will help me to help you. Please realise that we all want to help you if we can.

Try to stay with your original thread, My Sister in in Jail for Murder.

Warm thoughts,


10/20/04 02:29 AM

Re: Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime?


I just saw this post above after starting a new thread myself. I wonder whether it will be able to be left as it is an entirely new subject?

**Hi Mati, I just combined your excellent post with an existing thread about NPD and P's.


10/20/04 03:13 AM

Re: Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime

Dear Mati,

"I just saw this post above after starting a new thread myself. I wonder whether it will be able to be left as it is an entirely new subject? "

Your new thread is a good subject! I haven't had time to read it all, but from the little I have read, it seems VERY appropriate. You are relating important information that both readers and posters can use.

I was NOT, NOT, NOT implying that Outsider's threads are unimportant or unworthy of being answered. What I have tried to say, is that we all really want to help her if can. Too many different questions from the same poster, questions spread over too many different threads makes it difficult, at least for me, to provide a caring and thoughtful reply. Right now, the board is humming with activity. Some of this activity is not related ONLY to new posters. All of us 'old timers' are former victims as well, and we too need and want support from each other. That support may not seem as acute, but it IS important. We all need and want to continue healing. If we do not, what hope is there that we can continue to help others?

Kind regards,


10/20/04 03:23 AM

10/20/04 03:48 AM

Re: Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime?


I wrote:

"I was NOT, NOT, NOT implying that Outsider's threads are unimportant or unworthy of being answered."

You replied:

"EH??? I did not suggest you said that????"

NO! I said that to ensure that no one, and expecially Outsider, would think that I thought so.


10/20/04 05:57 AM

Re: Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime?



darn, was hoping there were 8 responses to the question...rats..
actually I picked up this jumpin around habit from an old board a few years back and it confuses the hell out of me too
so I'll do as Nan suggested but since it's here now
until it gets deleted
CAN they cry on a dime for a moment without a long display?

10/20/04 06:01 AM

Re: Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime?

hi outsider

You certainly do hop around - must keep you fit??
I think the answer is taht the P will do or pretend to do/feel/say whatever it takes to get what they want - period.

Catch you later

10/20/04 06:12 AM

Re: Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime?


"CAN they cry on a dime for a moment without a long display? "

Yes, the P I knew could do it. However, the things he cried about always seemed terribly inappropiate to me. As if he was faking the tears.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/21/04 01:57 AM

I think the P & N debate (see my post of same date in the difference between NPD and P thread) is fundamental to this question on whether Ps can cry on the spin of a dime.

I really didn't understand the question because it wasn't immediately obvious to me what a dime is... and I am someone who has visited the US about 15 times in the last 4 years LOL.

But I understand the question now (and its another good question Outsider), I think that Narcissists will cry on the spin of a dime, I suspect that straight Ps do not cry. I have always had a close relationship with my paternal grandmother. She is 89 years old. In the 33 years I have known her, which include the hardship that her only child rejected her for 14 years, I have NEVER seen her shed a tear. Fake tantrums, yes. Tears, no.

I can think of 3 other Ps that are very attached to me, that do not cry. They are so quick to walk away from or intimidate anyone that is making them anxious, they never allow anyone to upset them... I suspect the lack of tears is more to do with Ps being petrified of becoming emotional as I mentioned in another post, but Hare states that some of them have very limited feeling so some might never feel anxious.

On the other hand, my dear brother and darling nephew (6 years) are not Ps, but they are so attention dependent that they can turn the taps on and off whenever it suits them. Both of them also genuinely cry on a grand scale especially when they get hurt or when they hurt others. Crying attracts attention... therefore I hypothesize that N's cry and Ps rarely reveal vulnerability.

Just my 5 cents.

Kind regards

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 10/21/04 08:40 AM

Interesting, BTW, yes, I am sure my mother is BPD as you questioned in an earlier post. KT, I understand from Nan from my original thread that you've been at the board a LONG time. You certainly have a lot of these P's in your life.
I believe these P's can also be layered w/ other mental disorders as well.
But of course the outstanding characteristic is the inability to feel for anyone except themselves. My daughter's father exhibits that to the absolute highest and greatest degree. I am and I imagine will be on the fence for quite a long long while about my sister--- it is seeming that much of her life has been a lie and there were clues to that off and on for many years KT.
Most of my problems stem from my crazy mother, yes for sure. Taking an emotional beating from her since I can recall.
Going back into therapy next week. She is a very cold hard lady esp with towards me.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 11/05/04 06:03 AM

NEw observation,
watched most of a special on prime time news show last night with Diane Sawyer (sp?) and did not see too much remorse going around in that prison, that's for sure. One woman at the time of the crime was 38 and arranged to have her 18 year old lover (her daughter's boyfriend) shoot her husband AND COLLECTED $100,00.00 life insurance and said it was b/c the husband was sexually molesting her daughters AND HE WAS However, when the 18 year old boyfriend found out that she had ANOTHER BOYFRIEND he turned on her. She is 54 now and cried and remarked "I am just like everyone else."
There were a few stories like that. In the prison in general, you don't see remorse at all. The claim is you can't show it: it shows weakness and that makes you vulnerable in jail which gets you hurt. I saw one that looked sincere. I saw another one, a young white girl with very short hair who was soft spoken and highly intelligent and in for robbery... she had those weird penetrating eyes that contradicted the soft spoken rational words. Anyone else watch this? Di said the stats on P's in prison is 25 to 30%.... for women too?
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 11/10/04 10:02 AM


I’m not sure where this message belongs so maybe this thread is as good a place as any.

I’ve read posts about people who have had their reputations ruined because of Ps they encountered spreading false and malicious rumors either at work, among friends/relatives or in a community.

I have mentioned before that I too have experienced this sort of character assassination for many years. I strongly advise anyone who has this happen to them to seek counseling and to inform their GP as soon as possible. There are many people, usually well meaning, but apparently completely ignorant about the effects of what is essentially a form of abuse who may advise you to ignore it, to focus on your goals, to not let it bother you and who may wrongly attribute your concerns with it to ego/weakness/control issues etc. Ironically enough, in my experience anyway, this advice usually comes from individuals who are highly reactionary to even the slightest negative inference about them and that in itself detracts from their credibility. Moreover, the literature that I’ve seen on the subject furthers refutes their assessments.

I mention all of this as a word of caution because it is documented that this sort of psychological harassment has an injurious effect, especially if there is a steady drumbeat of it over time, yet there aren’t the social and legal supports/awareness that exist for victims of physical/sexual abuse, presumably because the effects are relatively subtle though often debilitating. Because of the prevailing ignorance about it, you are just as likely to find people who will wave it away rather than really grasp the deleterious toll it takes on one’s self confidence and self esteem.

In fact I read that psychological abuse is more difficult to erase because it reverberates (both externally and internally I suppose) and you can’t put a salve on it. There is an excellent article on all of this by Sam Vaknin. It may be linked somewhere on this site – it was one of the most helpful that I’ve read since it really captured what the targets of this sort of abuse experience.
Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 11/14/04 12:40 AM

Not sure whether I should have started a new thread with this, but....MOVING ON...

I have reached a point where I think that I want to have a healthy relationship at some time in the future. I have not had one yet in my life and I want to have one, firstly because I want to share my life instead of living alone, and I want to have someone to love who will love me back.

I am not ready for this yet as I still have things to sort out in myself but I know that I have come a long way these last 10 months.

I want to be at a stage where I am open to this happening but do not think that it will be easy as I will not accept anyone who is not psychologically healthy or who is an abuser. In the same way, I am not going to let anyone suffer the consequences of taking me on until I am psychologically healthy and recovered. Finding someone may/may not happen, I accept. But to be ready in case I meet someone who could possibly be the one is the important thing I think. I will not accept anything but the best for myself now and would rather stay alone than be in an unhealthy relationship again.

The problem is that, will I put the fence too high that no-one will be able to jump it? Will I be expecting someone to be more healthy than is possible? Are we all unhealthy? Will I reject someone for the slightest sign that they have some issues?

I know that the more i recover, the more I can recognise unhealthiness in others. I do not fear getting entangled with a p again as I would take things so slowly that they would run.

I am arranging therapy to work on the areas I still need help over, and by waiting, I know exactly what they are and have benefitted by not having therapy up till now I think, in order to find myself. The time is right to work on deeper issues which may have been brought up too prematurely for me to handle. I have learnt to find an inner strength that will help me in the future and I know that I will be able to handle things without feeling helpless.

Instead of falling into that hole in the road, I see it now and know how to walk around it. My future fills me with hope. I am excited at the possibilities in life. At last I have come to know myself and can say that it was through p that I got here.

I hope that this gives encouragement to those who have only recently got out.


Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 01/21/05 05:49 PM

01/06/05 12:10 AM

To others

sorry I have not been around. I have been seeing p. There is no way that I will consider going back with him, but I still had some stuff to work through which is why I hovered a bit. Part of his mind work on me was to make me believe that it was all my fault and I would still slip into that, I had been so brainwashed by him. I think that he was more dangerous in that he is so covert in his actions and more clever at the victim thing. He is highly intelligent and clever. But I only have to look at the mess I am in and my sons to know the truth. Anyway, these few meetings with him have really helped me to understand his ways better and I'm no longer stuck in trying to understand whether he is indeed a p or an n or some other personality disorder. That does not worry me now. I am not a psychologist. All I need to be sure of is thatI know that he abused me and as my self-esteem rises and I love myself more than him or as least as much, I refuse to have an abuser in my life. I was having mood swings earlier between elation at being free from him, to desperately missing him which have ceased now and my thinking is more steady.

I saw a psychologist for the evaluation interview and even that short time has helped me as he said 'He will not change you know'. He said he will be able to help me and I see him next week. Although he is private and not NHS he has reduced his fee right down so that I can afford it.

One of the things that kept me in the relationship of 22 years was that I had become so dependant on him. I did not think I could manage without him but it is the opposite and I am making new friends now being able to get out to church now, and am finding plenty of kind people who want to help me.

My husband ended the relationship but is talking of us getting back because I think he can see I have moved on. I would not take a step back after coming so far. Our sons have nearly moved out now and he will be left on his own. They want neither of us to visit them and are not disclosing their address which is a good thing in that they want to be away from their father. I am so pleased that he has lost influence with them but I will miss them dreadfully. They are both very screwed up now but they know that they can come to me at any time. They have listened to me and accept that their father has a personality disorder and that they have had a disfunctional childhood and they need help. They see that he sees things differently to other people and I think that they accept that it has affected them more than they realise. They need to see how he has been abusive to me next and understand that my own behaviour was due to being distressed out of my mind when I was with their father, but it will take time I think. If they don't see it then they will carry on to be abusers I believe. But things are moving forward I believe.


Dianne E.
01/06/05 05:53 PM

Mati, it is great to hear from you. I am really glad that you are getting some professional help and starting to feel better. It seems like you are seeing him very clearly.


01/07/05 02:01 AM

Hi Mati,

How was your Christmas? You do sound as though things are slowly moving in the right direction. I detect a soft note of self confidence in your last post. I am glad for you. You have worked long and hard to get to where you are now and you deserve every little bit of good luck and good feeling that you have created for yourself.

The sun shines on you too <s>. Keep going Mati.



01/07/05 03:57 AM

Hi Di and Nan

Thanks so much for those words of encouragement. I spent Christmas with my daughter and grand-daughter and ex-huband (first one who was and still is a compulsive gambler) and it was good. He wants me back as does the p which would be a great boost to my confidence if they were not both losers. My sons and p did not celebrate it as p does not like it, miserable sod. I am so pleased that my sons are getting out.

I hope that there was a note of confidence as I know that it had been just about destroyed by p, along with everything else that is destroyed whenever he touches it. I think that before I was putting on an act to show 'him' that I could mamage without him, but inside I was not ok but I have come a long way I think and now I don't have anything to prove, I just get on with sorting the mess out he made in myself and hopefully later in my sons. My relationships with the rest of my family that had been sabotaged by him are well now and I am just giving myself time to get through this with help now with the lovely man I have met (the psychologist!) He was recomended and is such a nice man and so good at what he does.

I think that it is really just time and we cannot rush the process but it all works out in the end if we see it as a time of growth and refuse to be dragged down by bitterness. I have lost 22 years of my life with p and am left with many health problems, some which will not clear up, but I have got my life back and where there is life there is hope, and it is a big world out there and full of good things and good people.

For anyone just coming to the realisation that they are involved with a p, it will be terrible at first but believe me it will get better after the first few months. it has got much much better for me, even though I am quite sick, have had to leave my home and sons and everything, am still grieving for my eldest son who commited suicide 4 years ago, have had the menopause to cope with, and severe illness when I nearly died 4 years ago. But I am still here and thriving now! Just trust the healing process inside you and you will get through.

Mati (hugs to you both)

01/09/05 02:05 PM

HI Mati

Just wanted to say hello and congratulate you on sounding so upbeat, strong and positive. I hope the new year goes well for you and your family.

Best of luck


01/10/05 06:36 AM

Hi Recovery

Thanks so much. I hope the new year goes well for you to and your family. Take care.

best wishes

01/11/05 09:29 PM

i feel for you because the more i was with p the more i felt that i was becoming a p myself

"How can I find the strength to break free?"
the bible says when i am weak i am strong
and i finally experienced this when i got so darn weak
to put up with p
when my body could not move anymore to be with him that is when we are strong
when the energy is all gone out of us to keep up with p is when we are strong
when we are broke that is when we are rich
because then he doesn't want you anymore
right now you have too much energy to quit
when your body and money runs out of energy you will be strong
because then you won't be able to go on
that is when some of us are strong

when the spell is too mesmerizing
we have too much time on our hand
but when time runs out
you will be strong
and i hope it won't be too late
for you and your children
he is not to be played around with
this is no joke

"How can I break free. I am 46 years old - well qualified, intelligent, attractive?"

I don't want to hurt your feeling but if you stay with this relationship like i did with my p i would not use the word intelligent anymore and i am saying this with love
and attractive if your health holds up and qualified not, if you stay with him

with much love
and a lot of calling on God
for help


p.s. i will accept any correction from anyone if i was out
of line
Posted by: jamie28

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 04/10/05 11:04 AM

it seems i posted in the wrong section. i moved it.

Posted by: JustAMan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 04/10/05 02:59 PM

Appologies Jamie. I gave you a bum steer.

As it's your Dad that you're talking about it would have been appropriate for you to start your own thread maybe called something like "A psychopathic father?" or some such, in the forum called "Psychopath In The Family."

Its no sweat though. Unlike many moderators, Dianne doesnt get uptight about people posting in the wrong forum, or drifting off topic. Most of the posters arent nerds and many are in a shell-shocked emotional state when they first post.

The technicalites of correct forum use is the furthest thing from their minds...

You could if you feel keen cut and paste your recent post into a new thread in the family forum, then delete the post in this thread. Not absolutely neccessary though. Thats just me being a bit anal!

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 04/13/05 08:49 AM

Hi all,

Just wanted to mention a book that I found really helpful.

It's called "Winning Life's Toughest Battles" by Dr. Julius Segal. The things I liked about it are that it is simply written (which I think most people who are enervated from dealing with Ps can appreciate) and also that it recommends actual strategies to enable one to get through the psychic pain etc. and move forward. I think that in particular, is important, since some books talk about these subjects in the abstract but don't really offer anything concrete. It draws parallels to survivors of the holocaust and others who have experienced traumatic events and managed to get through them.


Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 04/14/05 06:37 AM

Hi Sylvie, nice to "see" you again. Thanks for the book information. I will add it to the resource section about books for victims.

Best regards,

Posted by: jamie28

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 04/14/05 10:53 AM

thanks for the book suggestion, sylvie. i put it on my list of books to look for. it sounds like it could be very helpful to many people.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 04/14/05 12:08 PM

"Winning Life's Toughest Battles" by Dr. Julius Segal

I always shop for deals and this site does comparison pricing:

I found the book for $1.95 + shipping!
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 04/14/05 04:01 PM

Hi Diane,

Thanks - the resource section is probably a good place for it. Good to post again.

Best regards

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 04/14/05 04:04 PM


You're very welcome. Hope it helps - it's a fairly quick read.

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 04/18/05 12:20 PM

Everytime I read some of the stories here that describe all the anguish and suffering Ps cause people and considering the ripple effect it has, I am at the same time struck by the fact that there's this strange official silence about all this seemingly pervasive destruction.

I am reminded of the painting by Edvard Munch, "The Scream". It's almost as if all the victims scream out in various ways, but no-one hears them. Very strange.
Posted by: JustAMan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 04/18/05 01:43 PM

In reply to:

Everytime I read some of the stories here that describe all the anguish and suffering Ps cause people and considering the ripple effect it has, I am at the same time struck by the fact that there's this strange official silence about all this seemingly pervasive destruction.

In reply to:

It's almost as if all the victims scream out in various ways, but no-one hears them. Very strange.

Spot on. Or.. "It was all so crazy, I didnt think anybody would believe me"... as a friend said to me.

A few thoughts... The Psychopath tries his /her hardest to hide his / her true nature. Its a hidden problem, diffcult to diagnose. Only the violent / criminal Ps are the visible part of the iceberg...

Its intractable. Personality disorders dont seem to be too popular with the psychiatric profession as they are hardly traetable at all. You dont build a successful career banging your head against a brick wall, consistently failing to facilitate any improvement in your patients. Clients with a personality disorder are also exceedingly hard work for any therapist - even where a therapist has a correct diagnosis.

Law enforcemant dont like 'domestics' as usually there are only ever two people involved - the perpetrator and the victim, no witnesses. And often (for various reasons) the vistim refuses to testify.

FInal thought re "strange official silence" - who do you think is in charge? - or is this just me being cynical and paranoid
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 04/26/05 03:58 PM

Thanks. I think you've really honed in on some of the factors that cause this "white noise". I can't get over "it's intractable". Just the phrase sends chills down my spine (in this context anyway) because I still remember when I realized exactly that. I imagine that's one of the most desolate moments that anyone who has been involved with a P experiences. The jarring realization that the person you believe you're in love with doesn't exist, and in his (or her) place is essentially an android of sorts, a reasonable facsimile of a person, that is until you get to know them better.

"You dont build a successful career banging your head against a brick wall, consistently failing to facilitate any improvement in your patients."

Exactly. P's counsellor seemed bamboozled as to why our relationship wasn't improving (thank you gods for smiling down on me!)- you would think he would cotton on to the fact that this guy had a personality disorder much earlier on, since my mantra was "he doesn't seem to have any empathy". That plus all the other behaviour should have been a red flag to the doltish counsellor - you could practically go down the checklist - but perhaps he really was slow on the uptake or maybe he had other motivations like billing considerations.

Speaking of a ripple effect, I am wondering if there will ever be a light at the end of the tunnel, so that not only am I free of the multiple Ps but also their continuing destructive effects.

Your last question (rhetorical I think) scares me. I don't even want to consider the possibility right now.
Posted by: MoreCautiousNow

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 04/30/05 04:36 PM

FInal thought re "strange official silence" - who do you think is in charge? - or is this just me being cynical and paranoid


If you mean what I think you mean, I agree with you 100%.
Cynical & paranoid? I was wondering how many people smell the coffee.

Posted by: JustAMan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/01/05 06:08 AM

In reply to:

If you mean what I think you mean, I agree with you 100%.
Cynical & paranoid? I was wondering how many people smell the coffee.

If the coffee is Folgers, I'd say nobody!

...ok thats just a Brit being insulting about the quality of coffee in the USA. I think it sucks. The only decent cup of coffee I ever had in the USA was in Albuqueque, in a small cafe on route 66. A cappuccino made with a Gaggia. I was so shocked I asked them what coffee they used. They told me it was Itallian coffee which was imported into New York which they had flow out specially to Albuqueque...

enough with the trans Atlantic insults..

Playing spot the personality disorder amongst the great, the good and our leaders is a fun game on a wet night in...

tip... the first time you review the evidence watch it with the sound turned off. Just watch the body language and to figure out what is going on and what is being 'said'. Then view with the sound up and listen as well as watch. Add this to what you know about their life history...

Personally, I think that G.Bush and T. Blair are 'not quite right' but as Im not a psychiatrist I think I'll keep my diagnoses (not the same for both men) to myself.

Hmm... Psychopathy, politics and world history. Theres a topic which needs a board to itself!

"I was only obeying orders"
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/01/05 06:20 AM

Hi JustAMan, funny you should mention turning off the volume. Even if I have the volume on I stay so focused on the body language that I don't really hear what they are saying. When I "tune" into their words I am always amazed. Without spewing my leftist political views George W. is particularly interesting to watch. He is so disconnected from reality, smirking when speaking of innocent deaths etc. With his lack of ability to string together a sentence using proper grammar it is fascinating to watch him discuss overhauling the pathetic school system here.

Posted by: MoreCautiousNow

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/01/05 07:57 AM


Hmmm, will have to try the no sound deal. Sounds provacative. That is when I can stomach watching Georgie.
Personally, I think that 90% of these "position holders" are not quite right. It's like watching a giant circus with nothing but a bunch of clowns. Unfortunately, the act isn't very funny.

Coffee?? What about the "rubber bread"?

Posted by: JustAMan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/01/05 10:20 AM

In reply to:

Coffee?? What about the "rubber bread"?

um... well I wasnt going to mention that. I'm sure there must be a few craftsman bakers making real bread somewhere in the continental United States... but I havent come across one. (Have only ever been to New York, New Mexico and Texas.)

There again... if you want a decent Margarita or a whisky sour... what you find in the UK is very sub standard

whoa! enough already. Does this constitute thread drift? I think I'd better stop here.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/06/05 08:57 AM

This was sent to me via email to publish for a member who didn't wish to post it but asked me to:


During the past two years I have unearthed a vast amount of knowledge, some of which I would have preferred not to have acquired, some of which I found to be quite profound, and some of which was painful.

I have learned how not to be blinded by trust. I have learned how well trust can be used to manipulate. I have learned how well an image can be established to mirror something of worth, but based on deceit.

Yes, the image. This proved to be the most interesting aspect in retrospect. I wonder just how many are deceived by it. Quite a few, I suspect. Why, family would be shocked to know what I know.

Truly amazing how it operated. I even assisted in keeping all the lies in tact. As reality unfolded before me, I began to understand how I served the purpose of the image. It continued long enough for indignation to ensue if I questioned it or expressed doubts. Yes, I made it extremely easy to be lied to or duped into an assumption, or even kept ignorant.

The discovery was similar to falling into a deep abyss, never knowing when I would reach bottom. But when I did reach bottom, I found it cushioned. I was a trifle bruised from the fall, but strangely enough my cushion turned out to be truth.

During that fall, I learned how long and how well I had been deceived and duped. I learned how the image had been created and how it serves its creator to this very day.

What exactly did I find? On the surface the image shone with all the attributes recognized by most as worthy of attaining. But closer examination revealed the image has acquired these attributes by mimicry or with silence or by deflection. Parrot that which is deemed good; remain silent and incur assumptions; or distort and magnify others’ shortcomings; the creed of the image. Once I was able to sort this out, the image began to appear in its true form.

As I uncovered lie after lie after lie, I began to wonder where this image all began. Hunger for truth enabled me to continue to delve deeper and prepare for the final revelation, which proved to be far grimmer than I ever imagined.

I learned the deepest, darkest secret of the image and it was vile and disgusting. This particular revelation placed everything into perspective. All the lies, deceit, and distrust gave clarity to the image. I even caught a glimpse of the image's own self-loathing. Yes, the image has much to hide.

I sat at the bottom of the abyss contemplating all that I had witnessed and all that I had learned. Eventually, I emerged from the abyss dragging the foul and stinking carcass of the image behind me. I felt no sense of loss or longing; there were no tears or sadness.

I buried the carcass of the image in some unmarked place and time, for I knew with all certainty there would never be any need or desire to know of the image again. No need to mark its end or beginning; no need to recall it; no need of it at all.

As I departed from that place and time, I heard some distant echo of the image. The image tried to claim yet another image; that of the bear. The bear belonged to him, he cried, for he had nurtured it and raised it from a cub.

I laughed. I had unwittingly created the bear for the image, and the bear had served the purpose of the image as the bear had been assigned the attributes the image sought to reflect. But now I realized the bear was based on attributes of the image, which never really existed. And surely I did not wish to retain that which had been nurtured with deceit.

Again I laughed, for the pathetic little image doesn’t even realize that he and the bear do not exist, and isn’t that an appropriate end to the image that he would seek to lay claim to yet another lie.

Yes, the bear does indeed belong to you.
Posted by: JustAMan

If you need a good laugh - 05/08/05 03:54 AM

as its a nice day and Im not feeling all that serious...have a look at:


..which appears to have been translated from Russian by a 12 year old Moscow schoolboy equipped with a Russian -English dictionary, but unfortunately little knowledge of the English language.

The funny thing is that it almost makes sense. There are hints of meaning, but you're never quite sure. When the going gets really tough, the translator just gives up and slips the Russian word in.. .

My favourite bit is Gannushkin's 9 categories of Psychopathic Persons. Category 9 is just pure Monty Python.- The 'initially silly' Psychopath.

Hmmm...Pity all Psychopaths aren't 'initially silly' - we'd have much less trouble spotting them!

And stand well clear if you see any 'excreted phylums' flying past - you dont want to get splashed by any of those. Very noxious - and it takes ages to get rid of the smell.

..ok thats enough of that... far too silly
Posted by: MoreCautiousNow

Re: If you need a good laugh - 05/08/05 08:49 AM

Hey JAM,

That article was pretty entertaining. Thanks for throwing that in. It was a good chuckle.

Posted by: Dianne E.

British con - 07/02/05 05:33 PM

JustAMan sent me this interesting story, reads like something out of a crime book.

NB link to streaming BBC TV news report on this page

Prosecution :

“He has no remorse, no regrets and I am sure that if allowed to do so again, he would do so.”

‘I can get away with anything because I have no shame’, is, in our submission, Hendy-Freegard in a nutshell.”

Judge Pillay :

“A number of victims all fell prey to your devious charm.

It's plain to me as I have listened to the evidence over the months that you are an egotistical and opinionated confidence trickster that has not shown an ounce of remorse for the degradation to which your victims were subjected.

I regard you as a continuing danger to others and women in particular.

Having regard to the mental and physical injuries your victims were made to suffer I give you advance warning that I'm minded to impose a discretionary life sentence."
Posted by: Dianne E.

Why me? - 07/05/05 09:08 PM

07/05/05 09:44 PM
I want to know why I am attracted to psychopaths and they are drawn to me? My past three relationships have been crazy, full of "love" but carzy stuff.
Posted by: hereiam

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/06/05 07:04 PM

Hello all, I'm new here and new to posting so forgive me if I don't do it correctly. I feel compelled to tell my story because it has been a while since I've really "vented". I was with my P for 10 years, married to him for 5 years, and have a daughter with him. (And 2 sons from a previous marriage). We divorced 4 years ago but because of his outrageous lies and ability to con police, judges, guardian ad litems and total strangers we have share custody of our daughter but she lives with HIM and I pay support. During our marriage I watched him try to kill his mother by turning off her oxygen when she was in the hospital with cancer,beat the tar out of a man on camera and walked on the charge,stalked and harrassed his own sister and her husband (stole their mail boxes, slashed their tires,sent hundreds of awful faxes to their employers,etc.)and walked on the charges,stole thousands of dollars from people and walked,gave his other daughter a black eye with his fist TWICE and walked,impersonated a police officer and walked,aggravated stalking (on another woman) and get the idea. He did spend 18 months in federal prison on money laundering and conspiracy charges.

The last straw was when he told me he was going to "stab me to death" with a pair of very large kitchen scissors after he beat me up. I managed to get away and the police took pictures of the bruises he left on my body wich the state attorney's office conveniently lost. So of course, he walked. He violated my restraining order 19 times before I lost count and walked even though I had phone records, witnesses,and even messages he left on my voice mail stating his name and that he knew he was violating the restraining order. He told the Judge's assistant that I had just "signed my death warrant". Yet he walked. I went into hiding and he found me 4 times. I went into the Address Confidentiality Program, but in the end I had to move back to the area because the Judge wouldn't allow me to see our daughter unless I gave my ex my address and phone number.

I know he will kill me one day. When we went to court last time to increase the child support I pay, he said these words to the Judge: "Wouldn't it be easier to just kill her?" He said it in a joking way, but anyone who really knows him knows he was serious. The Judge said nothing. He tells the biggest lies, (like I'm in a cult, and most recently that he is a secret operative for the Air Force and he has to go investigate a friend's death who mysteriously died in Iraq) and I think he believes them himself! Worse...other people believe him. And this man is raising our daughter. There's so much more but you get the idea. I am so tired of fighting this battle.
Thanks all for letting me vent a little! I needed to!
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/07/05 09:14 AM

Hi hereiam, welcome to the forum. Whew sounds like you have been through the mill.

It must be very difficult to let him raise your daughter. Is there any way to get her back without any physical harm to yourself? I wonder how such a violent person can parent a child.

It sounds like you are justified with your fears from him. Is he employed? You said "He did spend 18 months in federal prison on money laundering and conspiracy charges." Was this related to a job he held if I may ask?

Your situation sounds very terrifying and complicated. It is too bad you can't get your daughter and escape someplace where he can't find you? He must be very clever to keep track of you. Is he well educated or just clever enough to track you down? With his background it sounds like your best hope is for him to get caught and thrown back in prison.

I don't understand how he could be awarded custody of your daughter even if the other charges haven't stuck but with his prison conviction I would think that would change the picture?

Posted by: hereiam

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/07/05 06:14 PM

Hi Di. The reason she lives with him in the first place is because she had epilepsy and was covered under his insurance when I left him....he left a message on my voice mail saying he was going to remove her from the policy so I could "see how I liked paying for my daughters medical expenses with no insurance." Her meds alone were over $800 a month without insurance plus EEG's MRI's,and blood tests. He did try to remove her from the policy but the insurance company wouldn't let him. However he refused to sign and return some claim forms they had sent him so they stopped paying. She was still on the policy but they wouldn't pay for anything until he sent back the forms. Needless to say I couldn't get her on medicaid or anything else because she was still on a policy. I went to DCF,Epilepsy Foundation,Salvation one would help me. When I couldn't pay for her meds my ex used it as grounds to get custody.

I couldn't afford an attorney for $15,000 just to get started and I didn't qualify for legal aid so I had to represent myself. At the end of the hearing the judge said he was very impressed with my legal skills but decided to go with the guardian ad litems recommendation and give my ex primary residence. (I might add here that the guardian ad litem was completely snowed by my ex and even went out to a bar with him)

When my ex was arrested for aggravated stalking against his girlfriend I was in the Address Confidentiality Program. I waited for 3 days to see if he would get out of jail but the judge raised his bond. I picked up my daughter and hid with her while I filed for custody. My ex got out of jail and told the police I left the state with her so they put a kidnapping warrant out for my arrest (which was later dropped). At court my ex showed up extremely drunk and the judge ordered him to go to alcohol counseling and anger management and returned my daughter to his custody. That was a year ago and he still has not attended one class.

Yes,he is very intelligent. I would say genious. He can't hold a job and since he likes to live large, he scams people out of money. That's how he pays his bills. The federal time he did was because of that. His first wife has a restraining order against him too and they divorced 12 years ago.

So now I feel helpless. All I can do is take it one day at a time,watch my back and spend as much time with my daughter as I can. One day she'll be 18 and I will leave this place and never look back, if I live that long.
Posted by: tiasa1234

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/08/05 11:45 AM

Dear HereIam... My heart goes out to you. I'm sure your life is very difficult because of this monster. Your P sounds like a horrendous excuse for a human being. I'm sure having your daughter with him is driving you bananas. How old is she? What does she say about living with him? It's hard to believe with all those illegal things he's done, that he is a "free" man! He WILL pay for his mistakes, though. Somewhere - down the road -in this life - or the next - he WILL PAY! (KARMA!) Please keep posting and keeping us informed. All I can do is offer my support and encouragement -that as bad as things are - they WILL get better. We are all here for you and will help any way possible. Love, Tiasa
Posted by: stunnedhun23

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/10/05 04:57 PM

Hi Here I am...

First, my heart totally aches for you. I cannot imagine my child being kept from by such a person. Not one who I had previously shared every day with... it stupifies me to comprehend. A close friend is experiencing the same... and I grieve her situation daily. I suffered a miscarriage in March due to an assault by the P, and struggle daily with my loss.

I too am fairly new to this forum, and unfortunately, am also caught up in the so-called "Justice System". Sadly I am at a point where it is a full time job. I have had him arrested 3x now,and also turned him in to child protective for physical abuse of his son, which I witnessed. Being the master manipulator he is, he has filed 2 complaints against me, in 2 different courts near him that are (of course) COMPLETE LIES in retaliation to my actions to be rid of him.

I have not had much success with the justice system either so far, but he is currently facing felony assault, criminal contempt (of my order of protection) and aggravated harassment. I am facing FALSE charges on harassment, then violating his order of protection. (which NEVER should have happened, since I have several against him.) In any event, any advice to share? I go to court for the 7th time tomorrow, this time with a DV advocate, ( many thanks to Panamint!!!) & highly recommend that you find support agencies to help you. They are free, confidential and these people know not only the subject matter, but the "politics" in court. Than can make all the difference, and I had not previously considered that perspective.

I read your story and started to shake imagining the pain, frustration and how helpless you feel. I feel that way too, some days more than others. Please know my thoughts and prayers are with you... and tell yourself my new mantra... good prevails over evil. Don't give up the fight!!!!


Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 01/09/06 01:45 PM

Is anyone watching Dr. Phil? The subject is how custody battles affect children.

They're showing a guy who in my opinion comes across like a classic P personality.

Stabbed someone ("in self defense"), the person is now paralyzed. Served time for that. Also, burnt a house, killed his wife's cat, domestic abuse incident(s) and has had 41 different infractions, some major, some minor. People have referred to the scary eyes and psychopathic stare. If he doesn't have it I don't know who does. He's also a meth user.

I guess the issue is that he wants to see his daughter but the wife doesn't think he should. It's interesting to watch the audience because some of them look pretty freaked out.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 01/13/06 08:33 AM

I have now read Dr Hare's book which gave me a very good insight into the psychopath's way of thinking and way of living. I feel that I need to learn more, especially from others' personal experience on how to decipher the psychopath. If I should ever meet one, I want to be prepared, and I think I allready may know someone. Dr Hare says in his book that all the reading in the world cannot save me from a psychopath's claws. But I still feel like I know too little...

The icy, intense gaze, has anyone experienced that? Dr Hare says it is characteristic, but what if the psychopath I meet does not have this? The same with the characteristic hand movements. What do they look like?
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 01/13/06 12:24 PM

Hi UpLate, welcome to the forum.

Regarding the icy stare. How long have you known this person you think might be a Psychopath? I think the icy stare part usually happens when the "mask" is dropped, at least that is how it has been described, icy, blank, dark eyes etc.


P.S. Keep in mind nothing you do will ever change one but it is good to have as much information as possible to avoid what could be a bad deal.
Posted by: JustAMan

Re: General Discussion - - 01/14/06 03:24 AM

Happy New Year to all...

In reply to:

What do they look like?

Like you and me. Appearances can be deceptive!

Don't rely on appearances to spot a psychopath! They could look like the wino in the alley or George Clooney...

The missmatch between word and deed is what to watch for. Sugar syrup in the ear plus psychopathic behaviour.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - - 01/14/06 01:23 PM

I haven't actually seen those icy eyes. Or I'm not sure. They weren't really void of emotion, like I've heard that they are, but he stared at me intensly. His eyes were big, and I felt uncomfortable at once. I have problems with talking to people I don't know too well. I find all kinds of eyecontac too over-whelming. I'm EXTREMELY shy so that wasn't really new to me. When I checked him again he looked shy and nervous. What was a bit odd to me was that he had his eyes on me almost all the time. I looked around, up, down and close my eyes when I talked to him, as is natural to me. But I felt more comfortable after a couple of minutes and didn't really see any menace in his eyes. His hands shook. Could he have been just happy to see me?

I'm insecure.

No, JustAMan, I won't rely completely on appearance.

Is there anything else I can look for? I mean, how do I expose manipulation?
Posted by: Diane1969

Re: General Discussion - - 01/14/06 05:17 PM

Dear UpLate,

Here's what I know from personal experience.

Psychopaths are charmers, chameleons, and sun kings.

When a psychopath targets you they load you down with their attention and they do a lot of game work to put you at ease. They seem like the absolute most wonderful person in the world. If you are shy and have difficulty looking at them, they may gently take your chin and say very sweetly, "Look at me. Your eyes are so beautiful." They are absolute charmers in this early hunting phase, and they can make you feel solid and secure and wonderful. They can take all your anxieties away. They paint YOU in the most glowing terms, and tell you how wonderfully you have impacted THEM.

They will not look you in the eye when they are telling you the truth, only when they are lying to you or manipulating you. That is the easy test. If you know something to be true, ask them... if they tell you something you know is not true, they will do it staring you right in the eye. If they give you the correct answer their head will be turned far to the left or to the right or they will look down and to the side while talking. They hide themselves when they speak the truth. This is only the case when they aren't on guard. A psychopath can force himself to look at you while telling the truth, but this in not their natural state and they have to work hard at it. This inability to look you in the eye while telling the truth is NOT shyness. They can hold your gaze just fine while lying.

The amount of charm is unbelievable, so much so that if you are the least secure in yourself, it will seem like this person has something wrong with them. So they may tell you that they have never met anyone like you before, that you are incredibly insightful or talented or beautiful or intelligent or sweet or innocent... whatever positive quality they find in you, they will praise it to inordinate degrees and tell you that this one thing about you has impacted them in such a way as to have changed their life or opened new doors for them or some other outrageous claim. They may tell you that they never realized they had this empty spot inside themselves before, and that meeting you or talking to you has suddenly filled it. Whatever it is, it will be played to your story, whatever it is. But whatever the play, it will be WAY over the top.

Sometimes they rock back and forth or side to side when they are sitting or standing, as though self soothing, but only when they are at ease and not engaging you directly. This motion is slow and rythmic.

When confronted about anything they tend to shake violently, especially in the hands. When confronted they will never confess, but will lie or distract or confuse you. They are pathologic liars. The only possible way to get the truth from them is to hide your inquiry as praise or acceptance. Sometimes this works to get at the truth, but not always.

You won't see the icy stare during the hunt and capture phases. They reserve this for their victims. I've heard it called "lizard-like." To me it makes the person look like a walking corpse animated by pure evil. The eyes go black and there really doesn't look like there is anything human left there. It looks like possession. During the hunt and capture phase their eyes can be very warm and welcoming. They use their eyes like everything else to manipulate and control you. It can be a heady feeling what the P can do to you with their eyes.

Psychopaths are incredibly shallow and weak in character. You won't find them standing up for anything that requires fortitude or personal sacrifice. You won't find them doing volunteer work unless they are targeting a victim in that location. You won't find them working for social justice or social causes, unless they are on the board of directors. They never give unless it is a means to gaining much more.

They are selfish and self centered and this is one thing they can't hide completely. When asked for follow-through you will NEVER see a Psychopath doing anything for another person, where self-sacrifice or risk is involved. This is rigid. It really is all about THEM without exception. They take, they never give. But they will talk otherwise... Look for actual behaviors not what they say.

They are petty and this will show up in vicious gossip, which they use to try to make you feel part of their "inner circle." They have very little good to say about others (except you) and find gossip to be an easy way for them to vent the incredible amount of hatred that they feel for everyone without ever having to face confrontation - which they avoid with a passion.

They are what I call agressive passive-agressive to a hard to believe degree. So, for example, if you say something that they interpret to be a criticism of them, they may destroy something of yours in such a way that you can't prove who did it. Or they may do something loathesome, like urinate UNDER your bathroom rug. Or they may steal something of yours. Or they may ask you what you really want only to punish you by withholding that very thing. Or they may slip a drug in your drink and try to gaslight you about the subsequent blackout period. And they will always act innocent and without remorse or conscience about these things, like "What are you talking about? That's crazy! Honey, I'd NEVER do anything like that!" Yeah, whatever.

They often seem childlike and vulnerable. Things won't match up. There will seem to be a brick wall in places where normal human beings are pliable.

That's all I can think of for now, but if I can think of other things, I'll let you know. The best rule of thumb is if he seems too good to be true, he's probably a P.

Posted by: WhiteKnight

Re: General Discussion - - 01/15/06 04:00 AM

hi UpLate,

The Gift of Fear
by Gavin De Becker

is a book about transforming your feelings of unease into a useful threat

I commend it to your attention.

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - - 01/15/06 08:29 AM

They are petty and this will show up in vicious gossip, which they use to try to make you feel part of their "inner circle." They have very little good to say about others (except you) and find gossip to be an easy way for them to vent the incredible amount of hatred that they feel for everyone...

They are the human tabloids among us, repositories of everything trashy. It's a good way of projecting as well and with the Ps I know at least, demonstrates their virulent self-hatred.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - - 01/15/06 11:51 AM

Thank you, Dianne, for a most informative reply!

I have known the person I'm talking about for two years, but we haven't met that much. We talk on the phone sometimes too. Some of the things you say ring a bell, but other things are non-existant in him. I've been wary of any ingratiation and excessive self-confidence and self-praise. He does not really try to impress me with great stories about his life and things he has done. So I can eliminate that. He is imprisoned. Used to work on a construction site. He never boasts about things he has done. Dr Hare wrote that psychopaths usually do that in an attempt to impress another person. Does anyone have experience of this?

He does call me sweet things and tells me how he feels so alive again after having got to know me. That gave me associations to your point about impact.

He did not give me any compliments when we met, but did so when we spoke on the phone a couple of days later.
He is very shy and "nervous when talking to girls", he says. Can some psychopaths be shy?

Perhaps I should try to confront him with something..?

Hope you can think of more to sy, Dianne! It's really helpful!
And I'll keep scrutinizing my experience of him in the meantime.

Posted by: Diane1969

Re: General Discussion - - 01/15/06 12:21 PM

Well, my P did not talk about himself much at all at first. As I was trying to explain, during this hunt and capture phase it was all about me, to the extent that I knew very little about him. He rather dropped little snippets about himself, designed to impress me, but which later I found out were all mostly untrue with just a tiny bit of truth thrown in. They are completely believable. That is what makes it so hard.

Some P's may fall more on the out of control grandiose side. Mine didn't call attention to his narcissism, but it is there rigidly and completely. These guys are sneaky, not flaming N's, usually. Manipulative is the key word, rather than narcissistic. But there are clues. Something always seems missing or doesn't add up. There is an inauthenticity about their perfection, an inflexibility that becomes very apparent over time. The key is to walk away, though, when the clues present themselves to you, rather than wait. With a P' the longer you are involved, the harder it is for them to let you go.

One thing that I found so odd during this first phase is that the P didn't seem to have anything to say that was counter to me... this is odd, because we all have different opinions on things, and having discussions about differing opinions is just a normal part of getting to know someone. P's seem very fluid in their beliefs, for example, and will be whatever they think you need them to be. My ex came across as all love and light, all acceptance of me and my beliefs, etc. They seem very mild mannered, sweet, loving, but they can't confront you about anything. This also lends to the impression that they are shallow, because they share nothing of a shadowy nature with you, no arguments with you, not even much of simple disagreements with you.

With my P, thinking back to the early days, there seemed to be some inauthenticity to me about the relationship itself. It didn't go the way a normal relationship usually goes, with the normal deepening and moving closer that happens when you get to know someone and learn to trust them. I broke up with him after three months of dating because his self-perfectionism seemed to rigid to me. It felt like we could never get off the first date. He tried to hard to impress me and I just thought that he was a player. My body told me that this person couldn't make commitments and would cheat on me. Trust your instincts.

I never felt I could let my hair down with him. I couldn't even begin to get close to him because his perfectionism was like a rigid glass wall. He never let himself be vulnerable with me in the here and now. The best he could do was come up with histories of being hurt in the past. (These stories turned out to be all fabricated.) There is very little real one on one interaction in the present. You can't work anything out because they don't have any negotiation skills, no ability to give and take, no understanding of compromise. So conflicts are very weird around them.

Manipulation and inauthenticity are key concepts to remember. Everything is designed to put stars in your eyes for them. You may find yourself really wanting to trust them, but there is always something that warns you that they haven't actually earned your trust. There is no behavior to back up the words. Their bodies and actions will give them away, if you keep your eyes open.

I hope this helps,


Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - - 01/16/06 09:40 AM

Thank you very much! This will help me, I think!
Do you mind if I print your last two posts in this thread?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - - 01/16/06 10:11 AM

I came to think of something...

I usually call him 'my charmer'. Because he is very charming and sweet. And he always replies with such a strong confidence: "Yeah, I'm a charmer" and laughs heartily. There is something about his self-confidence that I find so odd. He doesn't boast about his actions, but he seems so confident whenever I give him compliments. It's like he KNOWS that he is so gorgeous. I keep trying to ignore it, but sometimes it's just hilarious. I've never met someone with such a great self-image.

Another thing is that he promises things that he does not keep. He promises to send me things, gifts, secret gifts, but never does. And he promises to write to me a lot, but later says it's impossible and he doesn't want to because all his letters are censored by the a censorship commission in the prison that looks for any personal details that might reveal something about him. He says that they could be profilers who are analyzing him and that's why he tells me so little about himself through letters and hardly ever writes to me.

He has told me about his family, his dad, mom and three siblings. He has told me about his life before he went to prison, and he revealed a great deal to me when I was able to visit him half a year ago. But he seems so paranoid. So extremely self-conscious and shy... It's just odd.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - - 01/16/06 11:34 AM

Hi UpLate, I don't understand why you are engaging and corresponding with this person? Your odds are stacked against you with practically 1 in 3 chances this guy is a Psychopath.

Personally I am quite opposed to corresponding with inmates.

In reply to:

He says that they could be profilers who are analyzing him and that's why he tells me so little about himself through letters and hardly ever writes to me. Doesn't this seem a bit odd? Is he such a big time criminal that profilers are seeking him out? Sounds like pure lies to me.

He has told me about his family, his dad, mom and three siblings. Unless someone who I think might be a Psychopath provided me with a video of his home life, I would discount most of it.He has told me about his life before he went to prison, and he revealed a great deal to me when I was able to visit him half a year ago. But he seems so paranoid. So extremely self-conscious and shy... It's just odd.

This is in sharp contrast to how you are describing him, I am confused.

I am not sure how far we should take this conversation. If you know the odds are stacked against you, what is the attraction? Certainly there are better choices of men that aren't in prison and you don't suspect as being Psychopaths?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - - 01/17/06 09:51 AM

I don't know. I think the reason you are confused and the reason I am confused is because things don't add up. There's something odd about him. I think I should find out more about him before I say anything else.

The problem is that I'm in love with him and have been so for a long time. He is the best guy for me, personality-wise. I don't have a particular fetish for prisoners. These romantic emotions were unexpected, but I can't help it. I'm not someone who is turned on by vicious killers who eat their victims' genitals. This guy seems to me like someone who's got stamina. His masculinity was something that attracted me very.

I guess I'll just have to examine him further.
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - - 04/03/06 10:10 AM

I have to write this down. I'm not sure if it's funny or annoying, probably both in a way.

The same Ps who have spent years trashing my reputation around my community in order to discredit me in case I tell people about the illicit activity they've been involved in (still are), are now telling other people they really CARE about me and want me to do well!!

Ps are such major snakes and always speak with forked tongues and expect people to buy it. Actually I think the reason they are backpeddaling to some extent is because some of their badmouthing has backfired - some people have caught on to what their agenda is and it reflects poorly on the Ps.

My turn.


Posted by: neverthesame

Re: General Discussion - - 04/03/06 10:19 AM

Forked tongues is right! Trying to make themselves look better, aren't they? The best piece of advice I was given about my P, "just let them keep talking...the more they talk, the more lies they tell and the deeper the hole they dig for themselves". It has actually proven itself in my case!
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - - 04/03/06 10:23 AM

It has actually proven itself in my case!

Good for you. I plan to help it along, covertly though, since I have been advised it's way past due to stand up for myself!
Posted by: neverthesame

Re: General Discussion - - 04/03/06 10:29 AM

P's can just quickly adapt to the situation at hand and say whatever they think they need to say. They simply could be saying that to gain more information about you, etc. Hopefully the person your P said this to is someone you can trust. Be careful...

I believe at some point in time, justice will be done!
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - - 04/04/06 05:39 AM

Thanks neverthesame, I will be. I know, Ps are slippery characters but also sometimes too stupid for their own good. I don't believe they're full-blown Ps but that they both have STRONG antisocial traits. The male P has antagonized others in our community so I'm just going to leverage that by quietly filling in the blanks as to why I'm being harassed.

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - - 04/04/06 06:21 AM

One more thing about Ps and they're spreading malicious rumors etc. False concerns are their trademark.


"Oh, TOO bad about John Doe. Did you hear he fell and hurt himself. Guess he must be have the alcohol problem again - wish he would get some help."


"Geeze, I feel SO bad about Jane Doe. Her husband's having ANOTHER affair."

Now, it's coming back to bite them on their behinds and I'm having a good chuckle about it.

The pillars of the community are suddenly starting to look like the underbelly of society that they are.
Posted by: neverthesame

Re: General Discussion - - 04/04/06 08:17 AM


I agree with that....too stupid for their own good! Is your story posted here? I'm guessing your P's are a couple??

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - - 04/04/06 11:04 AM

You got it neverthesame, they're a couple and unfortunately related through marriage and biologically too! So it's difficult to distance myself from them completely - there are always family ties REGRETTABLY!

My story is on here - I've posted a lot - stopped for a while then started again. I wish I could say that Ps or antisocial personalities are a rare breed but they're not, which is too bad. Still, I'm in a very good mood today because I'm thinking I might be at the tail end of this bad soap opera.

Posted by: neverthesame

Re: General Discussion - - 04/04/06 12:32 PM

Couple P situations are terrible. You have two crazy people to watch out for. I will look for your story, I haven't posted mine yet, still a little paranoid. I guess the good thing is, I'm not related to mine. I still see them a lot more than I want.
Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - - 04/14/06 03:54 AM


I have been around for over two years now, but not posting for while but reading often.

I have had a major problem in that my ex did not sound anywhere as bad as others here and I was always in doubt about whether he was a p. In fact, I started to see him again.

He said that he loved me and missed me but was not sure whether he wanted us back together though he was saying that he knew he had to change and was accepting reponsibility for some things early on in the marriage. I left him and our adult sons after he ended the marriage but would not get out of the house using 'mental illness' and inability to find somewhere as an excuse. The situation was complicated because our sons wanted to live with him. This was for a few reasons. First because he was always the permissive parent and would never ever disagree with them or demand that they showed me respect. He did this in order to control them. I have severe chemical sensitivity which means that it is not easy to live with me as fragranced personal hygiene or cleaning prducts have to be banned from my home and my sons friends vetted and asked not to wear them when they call (I was left to do this) And I am sick with ME, which has interfered with my relationship with my sons. He did the rest of the sabotaging.

I just have not been able to get my head sorted out during the last two years though I gained by having no chaos and disrespect. It has still all remained confusing especially when my attempts to improve things with my sons has failed and they have become even more protective of him and estranged from me.I kept trying and did a few courses but always fell back down.

Fortunately I have seen a counsellor during this time and the main thing that she has done is work on my poor self esteem. It helped me to see just how badly he has treated me even though it has always been covered by sickly 'concern' and the way he has always been passive and 'helpless'.

Due to her getting to know my ex during this time, from what I have told her,she has made an astute observation which has unlocked the situation and has enabled me to break free of his hold on me.

Before he broke up the marriage, I was moving out of his control through contacts on the internet and I was building a writing Christian ministry. When he said he wanted to be free of the marriage, he also wanted us to stay together in the same house and was taken aback when I left. This is not what he wanted. But once I left, his sons did not want me back for the reasons I have stated. I cannot blame them to want the arguments to be ended. So he had to regain control by messing my head up again at the same time as having to do what his sons said to keep control. He has worked at furthering his demolishing of their relationship with me by acting 'stressed' after he has spoken to me and making himself to be the victim.

So now I am gaining control of my head at last and know that there is no chance of him changing. But I am back to square one and have to go through missing him again.

I see him as far more dangerous than the usual abuser as he is so clever at his victim image and absolving all responisibility. He has used me this last two years to increase his control of his sons who are his future.

The reason the cousellor saw through him is because he is doing the same thing with one of our sons who has started a university course and is now at the point of having to give it up due to his fathers difficult behaviour, all of course of which he cannot help, due to 'stress'.

I am in quite a stressed state myself knowing that it really is over and there is no change of the dream coming true that he will change. The dream is gone but I am left far wiser now although due to ill health i have not much chance of another relationship, and the relatiosnhip with my sons looks like it is just about finished and I am left alone in life, too sick to get out of bed a lot of the time. But I have been left with my faith in God and am thinking about joining a Christian community where I will be able to offer my wisdom if not my man power.

It has been a long lonely road but it now feels like there is hope. The turning point has been for me to regain self esteem and to know that I do deserve love. Until my self esteem improved, I kept slipping back into blaming myself, or totally blaming him, instead of seeing my own faults, but knowing that they were on a different scale than his and accepting responsibility for mine. Mine were down to an abusive childhood, and the damage has been healed to a great extent through counselling. His are because of his personality and were not caused through a damaging childhood so are unable to be healed.

I have to live with the grief of the loss of my sons and to see them waste their love and concern on their father. Mabe they or one of them rather (one of them looks unable to ever see the truth) will get it in the future, but my attempts to help the process backfires on me for now.

To a certain extent I am still in shock since I started to see the truth and still feel traumatised by it. It is a hard path to tread. I so easily slip back down that road of self pity as I am very sick and alone apart from my counsellor and it feels as though it is too much at times, and there are times that I am suicidal. It helps a great deal to know that others are going through this degree of pain. I have learnt that the pain is necessary and when I come through a bad spell I have moved on further.

God bless you all who are in pain. My thoughts and prayers are with you

Posted by: stunnedhun23

Re: General Discussion - - 04/17/06 07:07 AM

Hey there Mati ~

So good of you to post again... how are you doing today? I am so sorry to hear of more P manipulations in your life and hope you continue to vent your frustrations... it's the only way to work through the pain. I can very much identify with the conflicting emotions you are experiencing... there really aren't words capable of describing the betrayal felt when you realize a P undermined everything you wanted, valued and worked for in your life. And that you cannot change a P, ever.

It must be so hard to watch your sons continue to be manipulated by their father... but just as you have, they too will see the whole ugly truth at some point. Don't write them off, just pray real hard that as you disengage from the P that they are able to see the way things really are. He is only manipulating them as a last ditch effort to get to you... and to further feed his own need to control. Don't give him that Mati!!! Draw a line firm that you just won't let him influence you to lose hope on your sons. With you no longer participating in his self induced drama, he has no reward... it just may stop or alter his behavior.

I can so much identify with being physically and emotionally destroyed by having held on to hope that the P could change. I am and have been quite ill myself for months now, and only very recently obtained no contact with my latest P. Some days it is hard to even get out of bed and face the day... let alone look forward with hope for happiness in the future. But there will be happiness in the future... and by removing the steady energy drain of dealing with your P daily, you will eventually feel an energy reserve accumulating deep inside you. You have made so many positive steps already... learning to stop blaming yourself is a HUGE step out of the darkness.

You didn't ask for, deserve or consciously permit any of this to happen to you. I believe having had an abusive childhood leaves us with an overabundance of empathy, and that people without a conscious are drawn to that like moths to the light. That analogy is very accurate because the P seeks the light which a person rich in empathy, caring and consideration possesses... those are terrific qualities to have. You are still that wonderful caring person Mati... and have much to offer in your heart and soul. He didn't take that from you at all, he only sowed a bunch of crap into your life in a desperate attempt to have and control those beautiful things. If you look deep, you know you are a good person... and deserve so much better than the past has revealed.

Try to remind yourself of that each and every day in even the smallest of ways. It's a big beautiful world out there... and you do bring good things to life. You just need to turn that warm considerate heart unto yourself... embrace all you are and all you will become. This pain, suffering and darkness is only temporary... and God willing as you rid yourself of the burden of it, your body will gain strength too and return to health. I know that is my daily prayer... and if I keep just putting one foot in front of the other every day, that new hope will appear when least expected. You just can't give up... there will be bad days and there will be good days... and maybe now there is sadness and a sense of loss, but have faith that a new path will unfold for you, and it will be much easier than the one you have already endured.

You have survived the real bad part Mati... its totally okay to mourn that, but never lose sight that you have moved from victim to survivor... celebrate that victory and make YOU the focus of your life for probably the very first time ever. You have a blank canvas in front of you... draw a new picture... one where you realize you are a good person and deserve to turn your caring soul unto yourself. Hang in there hun... try to nourish your spirit as best you can and know you are not walking through the pain alone.

Take good care Mati... we are all here for you... Sending you hugs and healing prayers...

Love & hugs,

Posted by: JustAMan

Re: General Discussion - - 04/17/06 09:16 AM


Sorry to hear that you are still struggling so much and in such pain after two years. Being ill certainly does not help. When ill and alone the mind often turns in on itself which can make things worse. Its possible to slip into a viscious downward spiral

In reply to:

But I have been left with my faith in God and am thinking about joining a Christian community where I will be able to offer my wisdom if not my man power.

From what you have said I thuink this would be an excellent idea. It would inevitably refocus your mind outwards onto the community rather than allow it to become self absorbed with your own problems. Simply 'defocussing' and giving yourself 'time out' from your own problems can be a huge energy booster.

How much commitment is required by this community - its not like signing up for the rest of your life, like becoming a nun - A 'bride if Christ'? Or can you leave easilly if you feel you need to? Is it more like going on a long retreat?

In you present state I wouold say its probably not a great idea to sign up to anything that requires total commitment - look at your mental and emotional state now and compare it with how you felt two years ago. SOme big changes, I bet. You're going to see more changes over the next few years, and all for the better. In this state of flux, totally committing your future self to anything permanent is not such a great idea. As it is impossible to say exactly how things will develop for you in future , you should to an extent leave your options open. When you feel 'settled' enough for long term commitment, you'll know it.

In reply to:

He has used me this last two years to increase his control of his sons who are his future.

His sons? They're your sons too, Mati. I think you should start thinking of them as 'my sons' and just leave 'him' out of it.

hope it goes well for you whatever you decide. Dont be a stranger now!


Pull away, don't look back, and give yourself time. It takes time and a deliberately created 'empty space' to move into to allow yourself to wind down. For somebody who is not used to living as a single it can be a bit frightening.
Posted by: Deb

Re: General Discussion - - 04/17/06 10:37 AM

Hello Mati,

There is not much more I can add to what stunnedhun has already beautifully expressed. Without a doubt, I also believe that any illness you feel now is just a manifestation of all the P sickness you lived with for so long. I also believe that is is vitally important to concentrate on renewing the energy reserve that he drained from you ~~ this will go a long way towards making things right.

Towards that end, let me help close off another energy drain for you. The one regarding your sons.

I had two children with my P as well, a son and a daughter. When my P and I divorced, my children decided to live with me. At the time, my daughter was finishing her senior year in high school her younger brother was a junior. You might think that I don't know of your pain because my kids moved with me, but I can tell you that it only meant they they were even closer to me, thusly more usable as weapons against me. I know pain.

One example: I remember well one Christmas Eve when I came home after work. All the cars were in the driveway but only half of the Christmas lights were lit. I happily trotted onto the porch and into the house, calling "Houston, we have a problem!". No reply. All quiet. I looked all over, they just weren't home. They were spending Christmas Eve with their father ~~I was left with an emotional sucker punch, since nothing had been mentioned to me AT ALL beforehand.

How many times did that sort of thing happen? Lots. No forewarning, ever. There I would be, anticipating an evening with them, and suddenly they are getting ready to leave. Going to Dad's. Going to spend time with the man that I protected them from for 17 years. It was also just great to be sitting in the living room with them as they talked about what to get him for his birthday or Father's Day. My son spent a LOT of energy on gifts for his father, little or none on mine.

Add to that my sense of over-responsibility to 'help' them see what their father really was ~~ to 'help' them see that they were being used. It would have been less painful to just beat my head off a concrete wall, but still I tried. Wasn't I a bad mother if I didn't try?

Meanwhile, in many respects they treated me like their father did. By the time my son left for college, I was relieved to see him go. To love someone that much and be so uncomfortable in their presence ~~ I don't wish that feeling on anyone.

Once my son and I had a confrontation. I said something to him and he angrily said "You say that just like Dad does". I realized then that I would never 'win' in this situation. (Whatever that means) I was basically set up to have to accept any treatment given to me with no way to speak up for myself because it would just be twisted around on me ~~ I would sound like their Dad.

So I cried (ALWAYS privately). I backed off. I cried, I backed off some more. I essentially figured that I had lost the two relationships that were most important in my life.

But in backing off, I did something. I created a space. A space which gave me distance and perspective. Perhaps a quiet space that was previously filled with psychopathic noise and confusion. A space in which I could grow.

Looking at things now (4 years later) I can see so much. OF COURSE I SOUNDED LIKE THEIR DAD. Since a P imitates US, we end up sounding like THEM. There is no way that my son would know that the tone of voice I was using was originally mine and only copied by his father. My own words and voice used against me. Nice trick.

I did indeed protect my kids in many ways from their father. IN FACT, I did such a good job that it has taken a LONG time for them to see him for what he is. My son still can't see (I must have protected him even more), but my daughter sees a lot now.

Mati, think of this. Your sons have no problem being with their dad. They even protect him. Why? Because they look back on a past and can identify that they had love in their lives. It was there. They could FEEL that. The only thing that they DO NOT realize is that it ALL came from you. Only through the magic of smoke and mirrors has their father has made it look like it was from him.

Ok, so now everytime you try to state your case with them you are smacking right into a defensive wall. They have built a wall to defend the love that they felt all these years. The genuine love that came from you.

They are defending you without KNOWING it and you are fighting yourself without knowing it. Another neat trick set up by a P until it is seen for what it really is.

Take that negative and flip it over into a positive into your mind. The easier it is for them to be with him is a CREDIT TO YOU. Congratulate yourself for every moment that they go without seeing him for what he is ~~ because the ONLY reason they can't his horridness is because of the shining bright light that blinds them to that horridness.


Your P is only using your sons to further drain you of your energy. If you can start giving yourself credit for how your sons feel about their dad, it will go a long way toward renewing your energy reserve. You expended yourself for them already, now it is your turn.

When I started to see that the concrete wall was ME, things began to change for me (and things changed between my kids and I as well). I sincerely hope that it does the same for you~~


Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - - 04/17/06 11:50 AM

Hi stunnedhun

Thanks so much for your reply. It really has been a life saver to post on here again. These last few days have been bad. Yes you are so right about the betrayal and so right about him manipulating the boys to further destroy me. I so needed to hear those words you said in not letting him destroy any hope I have in my sons. I have come very close to giving up on them. Thankyou for that. I do need to keep that. I think that one of them, 24 years old, may one day see his father as bad and not mad as he is intelligent, but the other one at 19 looks totally under his spell. His only hope is through his brother helping him. At least they are not alone and they are close.I have managed to put p off from seeing me for a good few weeks now and see that it is vital that I do not allow further contact. I will just use excuse after excuse and don't feel I have to explain anything to him any more. I have been playing into his hands in allowing meetings. It is oh so hard as he wants to 'help' me and fixed a water filter in for me, things that are a bit out of reach for me to pay for. Then he brings a bottle of wine over and we have a chat. It is so hard as I don't see anyone most of the time being housebound. But I know I must be strong as continuing to see him is only more pain and I have had enough pain now and refuse any more. At last I think I have found something inside that says no more. I thought that if he showed that he really had changed and really was sorry,(and was therefore not a p) then I would have him back. Now there is no way I would think of it whatever he says or does as I do not trust him, and his tears and his little boy lost act.

I am so sorry to hear that you are sick too so you will understand what it is like. I hope that you are going to be able to avoid any further contact so that you too can heal. I have found that being sick has made things a lot worse in many ways. I have been encouraged recently though that even for the housebound there is a community out there where we can belong and make a difference. For myself it is the Multiply Chemical Sensitive, and they need me as much as I need them and this has given me a bit of hope.

But you are so right in that we need to put those good qualities that attracted the p's to us, to our own benefit now, and something else I have learnt this week is, that our love and time are very precious and we should not waste them and should only give them where they will create.

Thankyou so much for your encouraging words that brought tears to my eyes. I do not feel alone now.

God bless
Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - - 04/17/06 12:09 PM

Hi Justaman

Thankyou too for your helpful reply. I have only recently thought about joining a Christian community. I would need to have another year to build my health up first and there will be problems in finding one where I will be able to protect myself from harmful chemicals, but it seems to me to be the answer rather than stay here and live in isolation. I think that they vary and that some are like a long retreat but others need you to give all of your worldly goods. I don't know what the position would be if you wanted to leave. So yes, it is something that needs a lot of thought and time to consider with some stays at first before commitment and yes it is not wise to make big changes when in a flux. I can see me staying put for at least another year and maybe two.

Yes it is interesting to see how I have changed in two years. In some ways it is worse because I had a sort of delay in all of the pain, not just from p, but from the whole of my life, to come out and be dealt with. It had to be done so it is good. I have learnt to be alone, and I mean nearly totally alone ie I have no one to phone when I feel down. But I have made it.

I have felt that he has taken the boys away from me as they do not seem to have any love for me at all, only distant politeness and i rarely see them but you are right and I should not allow myself to think they are his sons. I must admit that I have thought I could manage my life easier if I thought that I had no children (my daughter to a previous marriage is most definaltely a p but thankfully lives away)

I have been quite shocked at just how much time it takes to heal. The spiritual healing is the most important I think and perhaps not many go on to heal fully by stopping short there. But if we do not go all of the way if you see what I mean, then we have in a way wasted an oportunity. I have learnt recently that it is very important to not try to do it alone. We all need each other. I have been doing it alone. Thanks JAM for your encouraging words that have meant a lot.

Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - - 04/17/06 12:55 PM

Wow Deb

Your post has blown me away!

I have been torturing myself with the thought that perhaps I could have got him out instead of me leaving, which would mean that I would not be crippled with grief at not seeing my sons, and he would not be using them and draining their energy so much.

I do not know whether my health would have stood up to it though as by the time I had left, he had removed ALL of my parental authority and the boys were blaming me for everything and even acting in a threatening way towards me and yes, treating me like their father did, that I doubted whether I could cope. Maybe a few years earlier but they were adult by then and full of anger and resentment towards me because their poor father was getting himself so upset (drama scenes).

I have been very very sick indeed, and not just because of him. I had ME before I met him so he just made me worse. My illness is one of the ways he got the strongest influence in the home. But you have done what you said. That energy drain has been dammed. Thankyou so much.

I am so so sorry for the pain you have had, and you are the first person I have met who is empathising with mine due to your own. That is just an amazing insight, that they can feel as they do for their father because of me. Wow! It is so true. He has never given them love, and now he gets all of their love. And it should be mine but he has taken it for himself with his little tricks. And now he is sucking his children dry. This is truly an eye opener for me, a light bulb day and I am sure that it will go a long way in changing things.

I know what you mean about being uncomfortable in their presence. They do not want to be in mine either. An hour is about all I can get very very rarely when one son comes to upgrade my computer. He can't wait to leave and I can't wait till he goes yet I miss them so much. Every birthday, Mothers Day and Christmas is so painful as they hardly acknowledge it. And I have been wearing myself out in wondering how I can improve things, and helping them out with money and presents and trying to encourage them.

But what you have said has made me see that it is a no win situation for neither you nor I. They win. For the first time I see that maybe it has been best this way for my own health sake but not for the boys. They have had to suffer. I think that this thought will help me to not give up on them.

Deb, I take my hat off to you, you have managed to be the mother I was unable to be and I am sure that your self sacrifice will be rewarded in the future. Thank God that you found a way to save yourself. I really admire what you are doing, and then on top of it helping me and giving me hope. You are a very special person.

I think that I will be able to pull back now and at the same time, not lose hope . Before I came back on here I was on the point of giving them up. I am so grateful.

Posted by: JustAMan

Re: General Discussion - - 04/17/06 01:12 PM

" but it seems to me to be the answer rather than stay here and live in isolation."
I'm sure you're right on that!!

"I think that they vary and that some are like a long retreat but others need you to give all of your worldly goods. I don't know what the position would be if you wanted to leave."

And I think that is something you should investigate very carelfully before committing to any community. I am not a Christian myself, but it does seem to me that there are two types of Christian lay community. The genuine community which is self governing and run on democratic principles - members have a genuine say in its organisation and day to day running. Then there is the cult dominated by a charismatic psychopath with a messiah complex which mimics a Christian community. Distinguishing the one from the other from a superficial inspection is not easy! Unfortunately once involved with a cult it is not easy to disengage.

The Branch Dravidian community which was centered on the charismatic P David Koresh is a good example. (That this was a cult does not excuse what eventually happened to it at the hands of para-military forces. The Dravidians were I think, more sinned against than sinning)

Basically all Im saying is Caveat emptor - all that glisters is not gold. ( Probably not something that needs to be said to anybody who has ever been involved with a P!)

"I have felt that he has taken the boys away from me as they do not seem to have any love for me at all, only distant politeness and i rarely see them"

The are your sons. Try to hang on how ever you can. You never know, circumstances may change. Don't let the thread snap completely. DO you write to them regularly?

"We all need each other. I have been doing it alone."

Almost impossible. Find a friend you can call when you need to, Mati. You need to get out and get involved with SOMETHING in order to achieve this. We all need somebody we can talk to when down at rock bottom.
Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - - 04/18/06 12:33 AM


"Then there is the cult dominated by a charismatic psychopath with a messiah complex which mimics a Christian community. Distinguishing the one from the other from a superficial inspection is not easy! Unfortunately once involved with a cult it is not easy to disengage."

There must be an awful lot inbetween the two extreme types that you mentioned.I should imagine that the first type are exceedingly rare or if not, it is safest for me to think along those lines. Thankyou for your timely warnings which I have heeded realising how vunerable I am to 'love bombing' being so alone. I have tried to connect to Christian groups on the internet, but I have a problem regarding my health, some groups believing that if one has enough faith then they will be healed, and another finding my circumstances goes against their idea of God taking care of us. The idea of a Christian being too sick to take part in local worship or even too sick to hold a meeting at home is a little too much to comprehand, not knowing of the problems associated with an illness such as Multiple Chemical Sensitivity where contact with other people wearing normal personal hygeine products and laundry products will have a possibly damaging after effect. I see that I need to make more effort in connecting to this community who also have known much loss of family, if not because of psychopaths, but because of disbelief of the condition and the need to avoid further damage from chemicals which means life as we know it.

There was a local organisation where a few women formed a support group that I attended last year, and where I met the counselling student that I see, but it turned out to be full of backbiting and gossip and the cousellor was treat very badly and eventually was forced to leave due to the bad effect on her health after she stood up to the leaders in refusing to cancel arranged counselling sessions...but it is a long sad tale and I won't say more. My health has been much worse since and I am unable to do much at all now especially not make local contacts without a negative effect on my health.

I have some contact with one son but very little if any with the other. I thought that it was best to let him have some space when he was resisting contact at first, but it has got worse. Thanks for the suggestion to write to him. I have thought about it before but could not think of what to say to him. He will not open up to me. The endless struggles with my health, social security and my GP fill all of my time and I have just hoped that things would improve with my son. I did ask him over to 'sort out my tv reception' and fix me up for recording, and said I would buy him something he wanted if he did this, and he was grateful, but nothing again although he seems much more polite and respectful than he was previously.

I am so worn out with trying to connect with him that I feel like stopping, though would not say anything so that there is at least an open door still. I just cannot keep exposing myself to the rejection from him though I do keep trying harder because he has communication and social skill problems.

Thanks again JAM. I find it so healing to have contact with a NORMAL caring guy.

Posted by: Deb

Re: General Discussion - - 04/26/06 07:10 AM



When my world felt like nothing but pain and hurt, I told myself that someday it would all make sense. That somehow good would come out of it. I don't know if I really BELIEVED that, but I told myself so anyway. I had to tell myself something, or I probably would've lost my mind.

Thank you for hearing me. I am so happy that I could help. It actually helps ME to be able to help YOU, if that makes any sense. At the very least, I feel that perhaps I wasn't lying to myself when I said good would come out of the pain.

I hope things are going well for you. Remember too, that kids are more resilient than we give them credit for. Try to concentrate on getting yourself well and then go from there. Imagine how much things will change when your sons have the compare/contrast of their truly psychologically healthy mother v.s. their parasitic P father. You will ultimately help THEM by putting yourself first.

Your ex-P made you ill with all his P tactics, and now is working on keeping you ill with concern for your sons. Meanwhile he is trying to out-sick you with his drama. Turn the tables on him and get well.

Best wishes,
Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - - 04/27/06 07:34 AM

Hi Deb

You did it again. You are just spot on concerning my own situation and what you say is just amazingly helpful. I feel so much better this week after coming back on the board.

I too believe that good can come out of any situation and pain especially if we trust in God or a higher power which I am trying so hard to do at the moment. It is actually the thing that is pulling me through as I am so devestated by the loss of my sons. You are so right though that I must get myself right so that I can help my sons if they turn to me in the future. One of the things that I have faced this week is the need for forgiveness so that I can hand the situation over to God and not get stuck in resentment and bitterness. It sure will turn the tables on him when I get well.One thing I have realised this week is that all of the pain has actually caused a lot of spiritual growth in me, and I appreciate everything so much more now and value love like I never did before. Some people just sail through life and do not have to deal with the pain that being close to a p brings but at the same time, they do not learn the other side of the pain which is how really wonderful life and love is. In a way it is a privilege to experience such pain. I have made a huge leap this week so thanks all and to you Deb as I felt an affinity with you.

Posted by: Deb

Re: General Discussion - - 04/27/06 10:35 AM


Just some correction/clarification to my earlier post. I wrote: "Your ex-P made you ill with all his P tactics, and now is working on keeping you ill with concern for your sons"

P's are sick, but do not make us psychologically ill. They inflict psychological INJURY. Injury and sickness are NOT the same, though at times the injury we suffer certainly makes us FEEL sick sometimes. Recovery is still key, but it helped me to realize I was recovering from an injury inflicted UPON me rather than an illness that emanated FROM WITHIN me.

Sorry for the mistake.

A P cuts into our psyches with a sharp blade and then is careful to revisit the wound to rub salt in it so that it is impossible to heal. (Which is why 'no contact' is so important). The longer you are with them, the more wounds. We then need to recover from the wounds that their sickness has inflicted upon us.

I hope this clarifies my earlier boo-boo.

Posted by: stunnedhun23

Re: General Discussion - - 05/15/06 04:23 AM

Hi Mati ~

I've been keeping an eye out for you on the board, and am concerned we haven't heard from you in quite a while. How are you doing?

I know for me time marches on way too slowly at times with everything coated in a cloud of gray indifference. Being basically a shut in, sickly at home has a way of completely disconnecting us from life, as it is hard to relate to others when you lack ordinary interaction. I hate this legacy from my P as I am sure you can relate, and I still am trying to find wings out of this place.

My health is better than a few months ago, but I have a long road back to being the vibrant, happy soul I was 3 years ago. I suffer from rheumatoid arthritis which has been in a perpetual flare since the 1st of the year. I hold much anger that it prevents me enjoying the simplest things that once were the joy of my life... and then feel guilty that I have lost hope when there are so many worse afflictions that could be my burden. I got bad news on my last doctor visit that my hands/wrist have severely deteriorated and I now have osteoporosis in them as well. It explains the daily pain of simple tasks and does not bode well for me career wise as I do computer work. It infuriates me that I was unable to control the stress in my life and now am paying a steep price. Though I am at the same time determined to do my best to stop further degeneration of my joints by taking the best care I can, getting good sleep, eating a balanced diet and trying to find moments of inner peace, while trapped basically in exhile.

I can so relate to the feelings of isolation you have shared in the past... and I think of you often. I do have a small circle of people I communicate with via phone or computer, but am light years from the socially vibrant woman I once was. On the rare occaision I do interact in person, I find I have nothing useful to share... not wanting to share the events that brought me to this dark place, or the bitter resentment I hold at the price I continue to pay for not having heeded the red flags of the P. I have has acquaintences tell me to just paint on a happy face, and you will feel better, but I just am not capable of such phoniness, it seems too P like for me.

I keep my pets near and the music on instead, hoping that one day I will find more of myself to be able to return to "normal" human interaction. I keep praying for God to take this disease and its pain away, or to lead me to a better way to cope with it. And I am thankful for souls such as you who can relate to this exhile, and remind me no matter how bad it seems that I am not alone, and I will prevail.

I hope this finds you well Mati... please drop a note when you can and know I am holding you in thoughts and prayers and wanting more than anything for us BOTH to find a path from this unhappiness.

Love & hugs,

Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - - 05/17/06 07:54 AM

Hi hun

Thanks so much for writing to me and thinking about me. That has brought me a smile and some comfort on this lonely road. Well not so much lonely now, more alone which is different. Reading through the posts on this page, I am amazed that things have really looked up quite a bit.

First of all, I have made an inroad on improving my health and have been able to stop binge eating. I bought a sauna and using it regularly, and went on a no sugar, white, flour, alcohol and high omega-3 diet and after just over a week I see a difference. My weight is shifting, and a lot of pain has gone. I am eating loads of oily fish. This has started me hoping things will get better.

I have also made a lot of spiritual progress as I see that it is the only way out of the pit I am in. From my reading of Hinds Feet and now St John of the Cross, I am nearer being able to accept the loss of my sons. I have decided to concentrate on books like these which will lift my spirit and give me more hope for the future. I am not going to struggle to keep contact with them any more as they are adults. They know my door is open, but I am now going to concentrate on me. I wanted to get them to understand the psychiatric damage that was done to me especialy in the months before I left, but instead of churning it around in my head and how I was going to say it, I am just going to leave it up to God now. If they do not want to listen or understand and continue to see thier father as the victim then I should not force them to change their reality. Perhaps they will have to learn the hard way, but as things stand everything backfires on me and p gets even more control of them.

This all sounds good and I know that by next week I can be thrown back into the pits of despair, but I know the way out better now and it is through understanding my situation from a spiritual point of view and that sanctification or joining with Christ involves acceptance of the situation that we find ourselves in, and forgiveness.

I have heard of a Christian community in Germany who are striving to live naturally, and who provide a service for the mentally disabled, through horse riding. I am hoping to visit them when I feel better. They sound very uncultlike.

I so understand the struggles you have, with not being able to find things to say to others who are having a life and not being able to hide your pain. And your desperation that your situation could end. One of the things that is helping me is to think ah! I do not have cancer, praise God. But this has only come recently.

Hun, hold on, it will get better. It takes a long time much longer than I could imagine, and I am not out of it yet as the waves of pain still overwhelm me despite progress for a few days.

It is a comfort that there are others yes. A great comfort that there is an army of the dispossed out there. We are not alone, and actually we are in a position of the possibility of great transision and growth of spirit being cut off from all of the expectations we had of life.

I will be praying for you and thanks for saying you are praying for me. This is a hard road to travel and it takes us longer to get there but I believe that the rewards will equal the pain we are going through.

God bless
Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - - 05/18/06 10:45 PM

Hi again hun

I thought that you might like to hear about a trip I am taking to Germany. I met a Christian on a message board who lives there and who told me about a community there called Nehemiah's Yard, who welcome others to stay for a while who are in pain or sick, and they show them love. They also provide a riding school for those with special needs. Also they are into natural living, healthy food and remedies.They do not charge for the stay. My friend is meeting me at the airport and taking me there where I will be able to have analysis done and advice given on my health. I go in two weeks.

It is wonderful and from God I think. I will stay for two weeks and hopefully come home in a better state then I am in at present and spiritually uplifted through having fellowship with believers. I do not feel able to do the journey at present but am just trusting God for that.

Posted by: stunnedhun23

Re: General Discussion - - 05/19/06 12:51 PM

Hi there {{{{{{{ Mati }}}}}}},

So good to hear from you!!! Your news brought a smile and renewed hope, I am so very glad to hear things are looking brighter for you. It's terrific that you have found kindred souls who share your faith to help lift you up and out of misery. The internet is a terrific tool for finding hope.

I am thrilled to hear of your trip, I for one think it is a great way to officially make a fresh start at life for yourself. Good for you to reach out and take a positive step towards changing your health, life and lifting your spirits. While just now you may not feel up to it, I bet with time as you look forward to it, you will find the inner strength to go. I know for me personally just having something to look forward to can make a huge difference in my perception of life. It's an added bonus that the group focuses on health in a wholistic manner, I am sure you will learn a lot that will help you going foward. It is refreshing to hear that you found some support like that for free... there are good kind souls out there, we just need to detach from the P's to find them.

I think your attitude about your sons is a healthy one Mati, just as we ourselves were enmeshed in denial for a time, they will have to find the truth out for themselves in their own manner. They may never understand all that has transpired from your perspective, but as long as you remain open to them returning to your life when they are ready you have done all that a mother in your shoes can do. The one thing all of this has taught me is that things happen in God's time, not ours, and learning to accept our powerlessness over a P is a true lesson in growth. Some of us learn fast, some slow, some perhaps never at all. Clearly you have learned to be your own champion, it warmed my heart to hear of your new found strength, hope and determination, and if you listen real close you can hear me cheering you on from across the big pond.

I am happy to report I have FINALLY reclaimed my sleep cycle after a long battle with exhaustion and insomnia. For an entire week now I am sleeping good, have been waking feeling refreshed, and am even dreaming again for the first time in many, many monthes. This will serve me well in the battle against depression and to help get and stay out of an RA flare. I am feeling a lot more emotionally stable these past few days and like you have been engrossed in reading up on nutrition in an attempt to help myself live a better life. The P's take a terrible toll on our bodies, but we CAN find better health with a little work, determination and most of all hope.

Thanks so much for sharing your news... please keep us posted on how you are doing. Your triumph is uplifting to all... I know I gather strength and hope from reading how you and others here are are carving out better lives, one day at a time.

Keep up the good fight Mati, and know myself and others are here celebrating every success with you. Take care & God bless and keep you...

Love & hugs,

Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - - 05/21/06 06:49 AM


I am very pleased indeed to hear that you are sleeping better and even dreaming. That is a great sign! Nothing is worse than losing sleep. I can't tell you how happy I am to hear good news for you too. You are really on the way up now. And good to hear that you too are taking control and improving your health. When things like this happen, I think that the battle is well on its way to being won. It has taken me two years to get my diet into a healthy mode, which will make a big difference to me I know. I am reading up on a nearly raw diet at the moment. I am going through detox so feel bad some days but it feels good inside instead of feeling rough. The sauna is helping a lot and really gets things moving.

Yes that is so great that the place I am going to in 2 weeks, are into healthy and simple living. It is just perfect and from God I know that I found it just at the right time. I spoke to one of the people who run it and she is going to run some tests on me to find out any mineral dificiencies.

Yes it is a fresh start and it all seems to be pulling together as far as help is concerned coming at the right time. You are right that we need something to look forward to. I think that accepting the situation we are in and trusting God to change it has been the key for me. I was so full of plans when I first left, but it was unrealistic and I was in denial if I thought that recovery could be so simple. I had gone down the pan such a long way that it was going to be a long slow haul back up, but I feel well on the way now.

It is remarkable in this day and age to find somewhere where you can be helped and not get charged for it, even in Christian circles. They say that they do not even ask anyone what their problems are or get them to talk about them, they only want to show love which is remarkable again I think. So many people want to 'counsel' you and a lot of it is unhealthy I think.

Well I even got an amazing bargain flight so that it will actually be cheaper to go than to stay at home! Again from God I think.I really had my faith tested though for the last two years but things have changed and there is hope now.

Thanks for your encouragment and for cheering me across the pond! I am here doing the same thing for you too hun. Let me know too how you are doing please.

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - - 06/15/06 03:38 PM

I was just wondering today, that if it's not okay to incite hate against certain groups (gays etc.), why should it be acceptable to incite hate against anyone the way Ps do, spreading false and malicious rumors, destroying their personal and business reputations, trying to discredit and isolate their target(s) and make them vulnerable so that they can be abused some more. It is well documented that this sort of psychological violence severely affects victims and the damage can be as painful and long-lasting as physical abuse.

Maybe, I should spend time trying to concoct some P repellant.

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - - 06/15/06 06:18 PM

I've set a deadline for myself to accomplish certain professional/business goals and it occurred to me that I should take the same approach towards doing my little bit to increase awareness of psychopathy and its devastating effects on pretty much everyone and everything that it touches.

I've been meaning to write letters to certain influential, public people and it keeps getting put off because I'm still stuck in "dealing with P fallout" mode.

I actually think with all the new interest in creating social value etc., there's hope in this area.

Hope everyone is doing alright.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - - 06/16/06 01:23 PM

Hi Sylvie, you are so right. The common image of a Psychopath is along the lines of The Green River Killer or Bundy. If they say the general population has 1 - 3% Psychopaths, which frankly I would have to guess this number as much higher. They are like a germ that keeps on going, finding more and more victims and spreading their evil ways.

I am sorry to hear you having to deal with P fallout.

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - - 06/17/06 12:32 PM

Thanks Di.

Yup, I think the number is WAY higher than that when one considers that there are people with "psychopathic features" (Hare's term) who can do loads of damage without being full-blown Ps. That would explain why they seem to be everywhere.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - - 06/17/06 02:06 PM

Hi Sylvie, I have only run across a couple of papers on "psychopathic features" (Hare's term). I think they called them partial Psychopaths. I have my radar button on, lol.

Posted by: kwindish

Re: General Discussion - - 06/20/06 09:31 AM

On general discussion part one, page 39, I read that Anonymous was looking for a way to leave her P. While it is true that every situation is different, there is some general help available. Read this page on the loser and towards the bottom are some ideas on how to leave.
Posted by: JustAMan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 06/20/06 06:23 PM

Some BIG RED letters in a nice script typeface

and a picture I took in the Scottish highlands last summer

...just testing

HTML is go!
Posted by: JustAMan

Re: General Discussion - - 06/21/06 04:57 AM

In reply to:

Hi Sylvie, I have only run across a couple of papers on "psychopathic features" (Hare's term). I think they called them partial Psychopaths. I have my radar button on, lol.

I think the more common term used by most therapists is 'psychopathic tendencies' ie one or more prsonality or lifestyle traits which correspond in whole or part to one of the 20 diagnostic descriptions in the Hare checklist.

Nobody's perfect, and I think most men will score at least a few points, exhibit a few psychopathic tendencies to a greater or lesser extent (except a genuine saint!) Hare I seem to remember scores himself at 3 to 4 on his own checklist. I score myself a bit higher than that ( 5 to 7 ). Anybody on the 10 to 20 range, I would probably would want to avoid being friends with..

20-30 the 'partial psychopath'?

and as we know, 30-40 earns the full psychopath diagnosis in North America. (25 - 40 in the UK Prison Service)

The important thing to remember is that psychopathy is a continuum, and the labels are a convenience, not absolutes.

The degree of emotional dysfunction (flattened or absent emotional response - the root of psychopathy) which results in the traits we call psychopathic can vary from person to person.

I dont regard psychopathy as an absolute either/or thing like Downs syndrome, which you you either have or do not have - being due to the accidental doubling up of a chromosome. I think there are degrees of psychopathy, as with many conditions, (I have a friend who I suspect is mildly schizophrenic - but not so afflicted as to be dysfunctional in society - he just comes over as a bit weird now and then!) and some psychopaths have a worse effect on society than others.
Posted by: kwindish

Re: General Discussion - - 06/21/06 10:34 AM

In reply to:

I was just wondering today, that if it's not okay to incite hate against certain groups (gays etc.), why should it be acceptable to incite hate against anyone the way Ps do, spreading false and malicious rumors, destroying their personal and business reputations, trying to discredit and isolate their target(s) and make them vulnerable so that they can be abused some more. It is well documented that this sort of psychological violence severely affects victims and the damage can be as painful and long-lasting as physical abuse.

Maybe, I should spend time trying to concoct some P repellant.


Inciting hatred is never acceptable, but people often get away with it. Perhaps we are too apathetic in our legal system; we don't want to turn into a police state. And by the way, if you ever develop a P repellant, let me know, I'll buy some!
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - - 06/29/06 02:09 PM

Perhaps we are too apathetic in our legal system; we don't want to turn into a police state.

Yes. That and I think many people still don't realize the effects of psychological harassment/abuse...they're still stuck in the "sticks and stones may hurt my bones, but words will never hurt me" times. Ps know they can exploit that.

I've noted your order for repellant - I'm still looking for eye of newt!

Posted by: kwindish

Re: General Discussion - - 06/30/06 10:15 AM

Maybe try looking here!

Keep me posted.
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - - 07/02/06 01:01 PM

Hey thanks! lol

We'll be rid of them yet.

Posted by: kwindish

Re: General Discussion - - 07/04/06 12:15 PM

Happy Independence Day!!! Somewhere, someone is having success against their NP. Think of their celebration as you watch the fireworks today, and know it'll be your turn soon.
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - - 07/05/06 07:38 PM

Thanks, and you too (belatedly).

The fireworks were spectacular even from afar. You know, I think I'm getting there, slooooowly but surely.
Posted by: lizzie2002

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/07/06 07:30 AM

I think I have been involved with a psychopath but I only started to think that this week so I'm really coming to terms with it and part of me thinks it's me being paranoid.

I met my boyfriend in 13 months ago in a nightclub (I'm English by the way and I think most people here are american- just in case I use different terms or whatever!). We talked and exchanged numbers and then he asked if we were leaving together. I said no but he could call. He told me that question was a test and if I'd have been willing to leave with him he would have thought I was a 'tart' and would not have contacted me again.

That night he text me loads after I got home and all weekend. I went on a date with him the next week, he brought a cousin and I brought a friend. It went well. He was lovely. He told me how he'd been engaged before and they'd had 2 still born babies and his fiancee had been instituionalised as a result and it'd been awful etc and I felt so terrible for him. He said the relatinship had just broken down afterwards and all he wanted now was to settle down and start again. At the end of the night he sent me a text saying he was falling for me.

He was so keen but I didn't want to rush things. Just after we settled into a proper relationship I got a call from a girl claiming to be his girlfriend and asking who I was. He said she was an ex (he'd told me about her too- not the mother of the babies) who was obssessed with him. She'd duped him into meeting her by saying she was pregnant and then stole his phone. Foolishly I believed him. He was so charming, everyone liked him I could not believe he would lie.

After that everyhing seemed normal. We were happy. He adored me, sent me gushing texts, cards with words in that could make you cry, took me to his children's grave etc. I knew his family who really liked me and my family and friends liked him.

Looking back it wasn't as great as I thought. He claimed to be depressed about his children's death (how could I question that) and needed to be on his own sometimes. I'd ask if he still loved me like before and he'd always say yes but I felt like I was always trying to get back the early days of our relationship. He also used to tell me a lot of places in the city we lived in were dangerous and I shouldn't go to them. He didn't introduce me to some people cuz he said they were 'bad' and he didn't want to talk to them really and I shouldn't get involved. He also told me he used to be 'bad' and that's how he knew people into drugs etc but he was reformed and hated all that.He always said he was protecting me. I believed him.

Some of my friends found out he was cheating on me and confronted him. He immediately called me about it and denied everything. He cried when I told him that they were suspicious because he disappeared a lot. He said 'I'm upset about my children, how could they think that?!' I believed him. Then he insinuated another of my friends made sexual comments to him. I didn't know what to believe or who to trust. He always told me girls fancied him but that he hated 'dirty girls' and people who slept around. He was jealous about my ex boyfriends and accused me of cheating but wasn't aggressive just upset.

Things got worse and worse but I really thought he was depressed and I could help. I spoke to his Mum who said he'd had problems since his children died and he needed help and so I should finish with him and let him get well. I took her advice always hoping when he was better things could be as they were. When we were apart he contacted me all the time and started to do things to get his life back on track. We met up and he said he felt he'd made real progress with his depresseion and thought we could get back on track, I agreed.

A week later I was looking at old phone bills called a number I didn't know to find it was his 'mad' ex. Her number was all over my bills. At that point everything started to come out. In reality he'd never left her and she thought I was a one night stand. He also had another girlfriend. We all thought we were his only girl. He'd beaten up one girl and told me he was upset at the childrens grave at the time. He'd also hit a couple of guys and got a police caution. He'd managed to go on holidays with 2 of us without the others finding out. He'd propsed to all of us, almost moved in with me and moved another girl into his flat (I never stayed there, he said it had painful memories about his children's death). He'd lied about his fiancee who was actually his wife who he'd left for a 16 year old girl (he was 26). A lot of his friends had backed off from him and his Mum thinks he's flipped. He'd used my car when he was with the other girls and told them it belonged to him, even trying to sell it. He'd taken loads of money from one girl. He'd also had a lot of one night stands.

He'd never been 'bad' and all the 'dangerous places' were just the places he took other girls too. He befriended the families of the other girls and told the other girls his family were racist (he's black we were all white) and that's why they couldn't meet his Mum. In reality his Mum only knew about me and really is not racist.

Having spoken to life long friends and his family it seems he was lovely and nice until the children died when he lost it completely and since then has been displaying psycopathic behaviour. Do you think he is a P? Can traumatic events bring it on? Sorry this is SO long!
Posted by: kwindish

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/07/06 10:39 AM

He sounds like a possible P to me. There are some red flags I'd like to point out. First, your subconscious is sensing something about him that's not right. I think his test question at the nightclub was BS. He wanted a one night stand, but when he saw it wasn't going to happen, he continued his nice guy game.

Next, there's a quick attatchment I sense in all of this. And there's always a sob story in the mix to get your pity for him (whether it's true or not). Then all the other women you find out about, probable lies being told, not wanting you to meet his bad mates, and taking you to the kids' graves was kinda eerie.

Lots of Ps can cry on command. I think it was all show when you confronted him about the other woman/women. You wrote, "Then he insinuated another of my friends made sexual comments to him. I didn't know what to believe or who to trust." This is a game of divide and conquor, he wants to isolate you so he can have you all to himself, that's when the abuse will kick in for real. He wants to remove supportive people from the arena and getting you suspicious of a friend is one way to do this.

He's jealous of your exes and seems to be projecting suspicions of your cheating on him. That means, he knows what he's doing to you and is accusing you of doing it to him.

You write then that things got worse and worse...another sign! I believe he's had problems well before the kids died and Mom just isn't telling you the whole story. Next you write, "He'd beaten up one girl and told me he was upset at the childrens grave at the time. He'd also hit a couple of guys and got a police caution.",... yeah, he's bad news. If anyone gets into fights after the age of 13 it's a bad sign.

He took a lot of money from one girl; they live a parasidic lifestyle. He's had a lot of one night stands; this shows unstableness. If his mom was really racist, he would be too, to some degree.

I hope I've given you some food for thought here. I don't believe that the kids' deaths would scramble his personality that much. It's a chronic problem with him and I'd advise you to cut him out of your life. One last question: how does he make you feel when you're with him nowadays? Does he make you feel good? Guilty? Defensive? That's a good question to ponder.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/07/06 12:43 PM

Hi lizzie2002, welcome to the forum. We actually get members from all over the world, the UK in particular.

I am having problems being online due to thunder so hopefully will be back later to address some of your questions also.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/09/06 12:50 PM

Hi Lizzie,

I have never heard of trauma bringing on Psychopathic behavior. If that were the case we all would share that disorder. There is some information in the "Resources" section about brains etc. I am on the side of nature not nurture. I suspect his mom was giving you a message to steer clear. I would also suspect you aren't the first one to call his mom. Who knows she may be just repeating some story because she is in denial herself about her son which is quite common.

When you mentioned the violence of beating someone up that would be a HUGE red flag. This is only my opinion but if someone beats someone up once, they are very capable of doing it again. I have never found a reason to beat someone up and then try to explain it away, it is a scary thought that a person is even capable of doing such a violent act. We have all had problems, some very severe, but handling it with violence is not a good sign.

See how brazen he was to use your telephone to call other women? I would even be suspicious that those were indeed his childrens graves, did they have his last name on them?

Out of curiosity how long ago did his children die?

In reply to:

He'd lied about his fiancee who was actually his wife who he'd left for a 16 year old girl (he was 26).

Call me suspicious or maybe my age is showing, but it really doesn't seem normal to date a 16 year old. Here in the States it would be against the law in most States.

Most or many people think Psychopaths are quite charming. How could they get victims if they showed the evil side of their personality.

It is quite common for abusers to divide and conquer, thus the comments to make you wonder about your friend.

I would suspect he didn't introduce you to certain people because he knew they knew all about his behavior. Keep in mind that currently or even possibly in the future there is NO cure for a Psychopath. They use people, lie, take their money and always have an explanation.

Are you still seeing him? Can you recall what popped in your mind to think of him being a Psychopath? Just curious.

Information is power, please follow your instincts and read as much as you can. This guy has trouble written all over him. None of us here can offer a diagnosis but in your heart of hearts you know something is not right. If you think he will change, I would give up that hope.


P.S. write as much as you like, sometimes writing can help to see things more clearly
Posted by: lizzie2002

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/10/06 09:28 AM

Thanks for the responses I've had, they really help!

A friend had read things about psychopathic behaviour and suggested I look into it after hearing about my boyfriend and so I read some articles and all the symptoms seemed to fit. At first I thought I was just being dramatic and he was just a cheat but the more I think about the kind of lies hge told and who he told them to I think it must be something more. The only thig that confuses me is that several people say he changed when the babies died. People who had no reason to say that and have not been trying to protect him have told me that- even though they admit it doesn't excuse his behaviour.

I did read in one article that Ps have to be constanttly reminded about right and wrong because they can't 'feel' guilt or remorse. My boyfriend used to be a devout Christian and when the children died he stopped going to church. I wondered if the church could have kept from lying etc in the past by reminding him constantly about morals etc?

After all the things I know about my boyfriend there is NO way I want him back. Part of me could see myself getting sucked in if I let hime explain himself so I don't want to even see him. I know a lot of people on here have talked about closure and I am worried about not knowing if he ever cared in anyway etc. I've spoken to his family who seem happy to answer question which helps a little.

Before I found out about Dev's cheating and lies I'd finished with him to give him space to deal with his 'depression.' At first he said it was for the best because he only caused me heartache and I was a good person who didn't deserve his problems and he was sorry for hurting me. That sounds like some form of remorse?! He eventually begged me to take him back but when everything came out he didn't try and talk me into beleiving him he just apologised to me for everything he'd done. He didn't seem to really understand what he'd done but he knew he'd hurt me and kept saying I was good person. He decided to try and stay with Maria who was the girl who'd given him a lot of money and thought she was moving in with him. She told me she was weak and thought she could help him and they could work things out.

I was shocked when I found he'd been with a 16 year old girl when he was married- to me that is sick! I was also outraged he'd hit a girl. He'd managed to keep all this from me- Maria did know these things about him before she found out he was cheating. I am worried about Maria staying with him. She seems nice but she's had a difficult life and she's only 21 and I think he uses that. I don't feel I can say anything though because he'll just paint me as the mad ex who wants him back! (although Maria says he only ever praised me when he told her about me as if I was an ex- saying I was lovely and beautiful, unlike the other ex's who he criticised a lot)

I'm also worried about being able to trust again. I'm 25 and I want to settle down but I don't want to get hurt like this again. I'm concerned Ps seem to know who they can manipulate.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/10/06 02:25 PM

Hi Lizzie, from what I have read here it does seem that Psychopaths go after nice and kind people as their targets.

Thank your lucky stars your friend pointed you in a direction to understand who you are dealing with. Sounds like he is getting plenty of money from his new target.

Most people talk about when a Psychopath drops their "mask", perhaps that is what happened when people noticed a big change in him. They can usually only hide the evil for so long. We all want to remember the good times but with a Psychopath there will only be pain and heartache. Feel lucky you didn't lose all your money.

If I were you once you get this resolved in your own mind I would consider cutting off any communication about him unless it is a very trusted friend.

I can imagine it must be very difficult to think about trusting again but perhaps after this experience your radar will be sharper?

You ask if
In reply to:

I am worried about not knowing if he ever cared in anyway etc. I've spoken to his family who seem happy to answer question which helps a little.

Psychopaths are not capable of caring like "normal" people, they are leeches on society. His family could very well be in deep denial about what and who he really is so I am not convinced that information from any of them is worth much and could cause you more confusion, particularly if they are painting a rosy picture of him. Having a Psychopath in the family is a very tough thing for families to come to terms with.

When you think about him, keep in mind this guy has hit a girl, no excuse for that. If he hits one, he will hit another, just my opinion. I think that is the general thinking about any abuser.

In reply to:

I wondered if the church could have kept from lying etc in the past by reminding him constantly about morals etc?

I think "fixing" a Psychopath is impossible no matter how much church they attend, it goes against current thinking. Either a person is a Psychopath or they aren't. There is a thread here about Psychopaths and Therapy which is considered to make them worse.

Posted by: Deb

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/11/06 12:13 PM

Hi Lizzie,

It does indeed sound like this guy is quite probably a P.

I agree with Diane completely about cutting off any communication about this guy, especially if it is with ANYONE who still talks to him. If you are still engaging in any sort of communication with Maria, I would advise that you end it. It is indeed upsetting that he is using her, and it is admirable of you to be concerned about her. However, I think the BEST way to help her is by example. Show her how to cut him out of her life completely by doing it yourself. Show her how to draw boundaries against people like him, even if it means that she will also be outside of those boundaries with you. I think that will help her the most in the long run ~ if someday she would choose to get away as well.

In the meanwhile, consider EVERYONE who still allows him in their life to be a conduit for him, especially his family. If they have not cut him off, they are too toxic for you to be in contact with. They will continue to spread his poison to you (whether knowingly or unknowingly)....

Example: "(although Maria says he only ever praised me when he told her about me as if I was an ex- saying I was lovely and beautiful, unlike the other ex's who he criticised a lot)". This little nugget of information was given to you to create doubt in your head about him (tho I doubt Maria realized it). He deliberately constructed it that way. He knew you might talk to her and he was VERY particular about what he said to her about you. The comment is designed to keep the door to you open, after all ~ how can you cut a guy out of your life who says such nice things about you? You must be a great feed, Lizzie, cuz he sure doesn't want to lose you completely.

As far as the "devout Christian" thing goes (I am laughing here) I think the childrens' death gave him the excuse to quit having to do the 'church thing'. Playing the goody-goody in church probably became exhausting and it was the perfect 'out' for him ~~ and no one could possibly fault him for quitting. A perfect pity card play.

Diane wrote: "I would even be suspicious that those were indeed his childrens graves, did they have his last name on them?"

An excellent question, and tho it seems that they were actually his ~~ I will take it one step further and ask if his children died under suspicious circumstances of ANY kind? Could he have a played a part in their deaths? If so, the denial in his family would be intensely strong and they would be great people to stay as far away from as possible.

P's are capable of creating huge quagmires of denial. I have seen this with my ex's family. They will defend him to the utmost and though I have cut them out of my life, it is still quite a phenomenon to witness. Whether he had a part in his children's death or not, I am with Diane here ~~this denial of what he is VERY unhealthy for you.

My advice would be to get out of Dodge, wipe the dust from your feet and don't look back. The sooner you can do this, the sooner you can heal from this experience. After the healing is truly complete, you will be able to trust again. Give yourself time, be patient and don't rush will happen.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/11/06 12:54 PM

Hi Deb, thanks for your validation on the childrens graves, I didn't want people to think I had odd thoughts. I have always been a true crime reader, which is a good thing because that is what got me interested in Psychopaths to start the forum years ago.

Somehow the graves are on my radar, don't know why but it would be a perfect Psychopath trick. I would imagine with some work the death certificates could be found. Just out of curiosity to affirm what a loser this guy is. Heck, he isn't even smart enough to not leave those phone #'s on the bill.

One of my other suspicious thoughts is the x wife (or x gf) being in an institution. She must have had some previous serious problems to need to be in an institution after the babies deaths (or so he says). I don't know how hard it is to be put away in an institution in the UK. Lizzie, has he mentioned ever visiting her there?

I think Deb has given you some great advise about how the information chain would flow back to him. To me, it would show him that you still care and there is still a chance for him to be in your life.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/11/06 03:07 PM

I thought about this when I was out with my doggie. Here in the US it is possible to access death certificates (they are public records), not sure where because I have never tried. But it is a trick that cons use, they look up deaths that fit their age criteria then use that name to get credit and a new identity.

Posted by: lizzie2002

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/13/06 04:42 AM

Thanks Di and Deb,

In response to some of your questions- Dev's children were still born. His ex wife had a really bad pregnancy because of a weak cervix she had a sutre stitch and was laid up for about 12 weeks. Unfortunately the stitch became infected about 2 weeks before the babies could be delivered and had to be removed. The placenta became detatched and the babies both died. Six hours after they were told the babies had both died his ex wife's labour was induced and she had to give birth knowing they had died. Dev had to organise the funeral on his own because his ex was not up to it and was on so many sedatives she can't remember the day. His ex wife's family were not very helpful and tried to shake her out of the daze she went into and Dev became her full time carer. She was sectioned as she became more detatched from reality. Dev has talked about visiting her and looking after her when she was let out for weekends as she recovered. At some point during this time he started an affair which led to the break down of the marriage.

I am sure all this is true. It must have been awful but as his cousin has said to me he now uses all this as an excuse for his bad behaviour. Dev's family have not really defended him. His cousin says he wants little or nothing to do with him and thinks he's like a different person. His Mum has said I should have no more contact with him and ignore him if he tries to call or text me.

I do agree I am best to stop talking about Dev and having too much contact with his family. My slight concern is that where we live he knows a lot of people and I am scared of meeting people who know him and what he did to me. We shared a lot of the same interests and so a lot of the places I go and things I do will include people who know him. I can't leave the area because of my job but I feel like I am living in his shadow!!

Thanks for all your support.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/13/06 12:52 PM

In reply to:

His Mum has said I should have no more contact with him and ignore him if he tries to call or text me.

That is a very loaded comment if his own mother is warning you to cut the contact.

You might consider coming up with some sort of very simple sentence when people ask you, I usually say something like, you know I would really prefer to not discuss him. Most people won't push the issue and if they do, they don't have your best interest at heart and just stick with what you said and/or change the subject.

The less you say the better, you never know who might innocent or not might say something to him about you. Ending a relationship of any kind is a personal issue, information is like ammunition to a Psychopath.

He will NEVER change and I would get out of his radar as swiftly as possible.

Posted by: onesinglebubble

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/18/06 02:13 PM

Today, as I sit here at home, paralyzed and exhausted... still...again...I decided to try and look for solutions because this situation really feels hopeless as it has for years now. I've allowed my health to become seriously bad both mental and physical...everything in my life has been negativly impacted...

About 8 years ago...I was out to save the world. I really believed I was doing something good and could see no harm. I met a young man, 15 years old, that was homeless. He was very small for his age and used it to his advantage for survival. He'd stand on the street crying and tell people he'd lost his bus money and couldn't get home and people gave him large amounts of money...he fed his younger brother and sister and fed his own need for alchoal and drugs. About a year after I met him he "trusted" me enough he let me speak to his 80 year old grandmother who shared with me he was born on drugs methamphetamines and crack and heroin and alchol and pot. He was a "Failure to thrive" child...homeless for the majority of his life...nothing in his life had ever been healthy or good.

Once I had made contact with his grandmother He allowed me to speak with his mother one night becasue he came to my home...yes my home where my children lived...with what appeared to be strep throat or tonsilitis. I explained he was very ill...she had antibiotics for him (I have no idea where she got them or for what or who) so he left my house and met up with her then came back to my house for recuperation. I only had verbal permission from her for him to be at my home. In the years time I had known him I knew to call the police or child protective services would do no good becasue he alwasys escaped from them in one way or another as did his mother. Evenutally he just ended up staying with my family and the longer he stayed the evidence that this was a good thing just flurished...he grew taller...stopped getting throat infections...started to fill out...went to school on occassion...normal apperaring sibbling rivalry with my son 4 years older and my daughter 1 year younger left me unconcerned that this was unhealthy.

When my daughter turned 18 HE started turning his charm on her. She resisited for a while and they kept this attraction secret from me (single mother, workaholic, way too absorbed in other things to pay true attention to what was going on in my own home). But slowly I started realizing that HE no longer spent any time talking to me...often showed signs of anger towards me...criticisim became a daughter started becoming very the time I really started seeing what was going on they were very involved and a side of him I had never seen before had taken hold of my household.

Everything I have read, now, about psychopaths...well he hits every warning sign with numerous red flags.

Starting 4 years ago HE established that for my daughter to be HIS she had to abandon any and all family and friends. ISOLATION. HE started to convince my daughter that although she had graduated from school with a 4.0 that she was incompetent, she dropped out of college because in fights HE would prowl the parking lot while calling her and telling her he was going to start going through the buildings until he found her POWER...she was at fault for all their problems...MIND CONTROL. They would fight, often in public, he never hit her but he would trap her in corners, cars, roooms and call her filthy names...tell her she made him do crazy things DOMESTIC VIOLENCE. HE zeroed in on me and my son once everyone else was out of "her" picture. My son finally washed his heartbroken self out of our lives.

She would leave HIM and go back to HIM then leave HIM...this insanity crept into my job, her job, where we live (our neighbors) We moved...I got laid off my job...she had to change jobs. We'd get a restraining order then she'd secretly start seeing him then he'd get drunk (he uses every street drug he can find as well as alcohol)and come to my home to let me know he was F_ _ _ ing my daughter again and call me names like C_ _t, whore...the police would come and arrested him several times and although I would press charges nothing substantial ever happened to him and often the police would not let me press charges saying the problem was between my daughter and HIM even tho it was happening in my home...sometimes they would simply drive him away from the house and drop him off with a stern warning.

On July 22 last year he got drunk and into a fight on the street that got him arrested. After an exhausting trial and bankrupting my daughter he's been sent to prison for 4 years.

During the trial she handled contact with his lawyer, a letter writing campaign with street buddies to establish that he pal-ed around with a diverse ethnic group of people establsihing that the fight he got into was not racially motiviated. The prosecuter described him as a neandrethal searching for blacks to destroy. The letters were all written by my daughter but each one was signed by his street friends and were effective enough to have the racisim charge dropped. (that would have sent him away for a good 11 years. She bought him beautiful clothes from Macys for the trial. She bailed him out of jail twice (they raised his bail after the first time she bailed him out and he had to go back in ?). She paid for him to get expensive tools and a BMW and a van so he could work (construction) while he was out because he makes such good money and he'd be able to pay her back...he of course didn't. She has his power of attorney and is attempting to "handle" his bill collecters...the IRS...oh my goodness it goes on and on.

In this time HE completly convinced her that if she loved him she would have to choose between him and me. He saddled her with a pitbull puppy (that he abused) that she can't bear to get rid of her heart is so kind. He left her with hefty bills for storage and repairing his vehicles so that he will have them in 4 years.

When I lost my job and health insurance I became very ill. All the stresses of loosing my family...of loosing the career of my dreams and the stress from HIS threats have left me with serious health problems...I cashed in my retirement, my I live on Social Security and need to have a roommate in order to keep a roof over my head. My daughter has come back to live with me because she can't afford to live on her own either...but I know this is temporary.

I just found a way to get into counseling and have a team of doctors that know my situation and knew me before the "crash". I am trying desperatly to get on my feet again so I can go back to work...We've been trying to rebuild and I want to be there for her because I truly believe he will one day kill her, me , us... I don't know how to be involved with my daughter now. I certainly can't talk about HIM to her. I don't want to loose her. She is has heard him call me filthy names, threaten to kill me just as he has done to her...yet she dismisses it saying HE's just talking, HE'd never do anything like he threatens.
HE writes to her everyday...and HE managed to call her from prison last night (it wasn't collect, I learned today there are ways prisoners can manipulate the phone system with outside help???????).

I realize my daughter's an adult and I am way to involved in this...I don't know how not to be and don't know how to be...I live 24 hours a day with this fear. Rational thought tells me I am allowing him to control me...I've never known such heartache and fear. I've never put all this down before to anyone either. I pray that by reading your posts I can find soulution and strength to know what might help.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/18/06 06:53 PM

Hi onesinglebubble, welcome to the forum. I have to be short we are in the middle of the monsoon season here in Arizona, yuk.

I am very sad to hear about your situation. It sounds like hell on earth.

In reply to:

HE writes to her everyday...and HE managed to call her from prison last night (it wasn't collect, I learned today there are ways prisoners can manipulate the phone system with outside help???????).

Did you answer the phone when he called? Call me suspicious but perhaps your daughter accepted a collect call which I know for a fact are extremely expensive, the last thing you need. I probably watch too many true crime shows but I saw one recently and the latest thing is the inmates smuggle in cell phones.

It must be sad for your son to disconnect. Do you know when he gets out of prison? Prisoners are very good about writing all the time, afterall they have little else to do, that is how they can keep their victims in their grips, by saying what they want to hear and how they will change. It is all rubbish.

I know that many times police are hesitant to get involved in domestic disputes because quite often the abused person will turn on the police.

What is your relationship like now that he is in prison? It may sound harsh but staying connected with your own daughter who I am sure you love dearly will keep him in your life and in danger.

If he comes up for parole is there any way to send a representative to speak with the parole board. I am not sure the right person is you because that would put you in his "target" range once again. In many areas there are agencys that provide free legal help, the name of them escapes me right now. I think it is legal aid? It sounds like you would qualify for some help to understand your rights. For example, would it be legal to hide cameras in the house to get on tape what his actions are?

It must be tough because unless your daughter seeks therapy on her own, no one can really be forced to get help, how can you handle him getting out of prison? I assume he is in for 4 years which unless he acts up the time generally will be cut in 1/2 due to overcrowding etc.

I would be very concerned also if a suspected Psychopath is threating to kill a person, he doesn't sound like a highly socialized one who would be better at weighing the results of his actions. Kind of like dealing with a loose cannon.

If he uses meth, that is a topic I am quite interested in, people who are normal can become psychotic and commit terrible acts that they normally wouldn't do. I would suspect a Psychopath on meth would be a mixture of terrible things. I have been fiddling around setting up a forum about meth since it is epidemic and the general public seems to be unaware of the magnitude of the problem. Keep in mind I am only beginning to get information gathered up and the forum is not "officially open" but there is some pretty good information about the effects on the brain etc.

I will be back later, thunder now, I have some other new members to respond to and apologize for this delay but don't want to burn up my PC so need to rush off.

One thought that always pops into my mind in situations like this is I wonder if the victims also suffer from Stockholm syndrome. Obviously I have no concrete information just a hunch.

Posted by: Deb

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/19/06 12:44 PM


I hope you are doing well. I am a bit perplexed about a comment you made in your previous post:

"My slight concern is that where we live he knows a lot of people and I am scared of meeting people who know him and what he did to me. We shared a lot of the same interests and so a lot of the places I go and things I do will include people who know him."

Why would you have ANY concern at all about this? Is it shame or embarrassment that you feel? If so, you have to realize that you have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to be ashamed or embarrassed about. You are a good-hearted person who was taken advantage of. The End. No shame or embarrassment there. No need to feel awkward.

If you had been hit by a truck (which in a sense you have) would you feel awkward around people who were familiar with that truck or the street on which it hit you? I doubt it.

Those people would be thinking, "Wow, there's Liz ~~ she was hit by a truck, you know. Most people would have died from the injuries that she suffered, but not Liz ~~ she's a fighter, all right."

If ANY of the people that you come in contact with are thinking anything other than that ~~ then honey, they are just ignorant idiots and their opinion means nothing. The End.

P's are soooo adept at projecting their faults and flaws onto others. It is HIM who should feel concerned about facing these people you have in common. HE is the one with something to be ashamed about. HE should be digging a hole in the ground to hide in so he won't have to feel awkward when he sees them.

As survivors of relationships with P's, we end up with A LOT of baggage that simply is not ours. The P's refusal to take responsibility or be accountable makes this happen. We pick up ALL the responsibility and claim it as ours. This creates a skewed perspective of reality which we need to re-balance when we leave the relationship.

This concern you feel is HIS, Liz. Not yours. You have no need to own this worry ~~ let it go. The shadow will disappear when you own everything that is yours and NOTHING that is his.

Best wishes,
Posted by: Deb

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/19/06 03:02 PM

Hello onesinglebubble,

You are indeed in a very bad place. It never ceases to amaze me how one psychopath can wreak SO MUCH havoc in the lives SO MANY people. Havoc for everyone around them while they sit happily in clothes from Macy's, apparently. Nice deal if you can get it, I suppose.

You say at the end of your post that you are way too involved in this whole thing. I agree completely ~~ too involved and way too close to get any perspective on the situation. (Been there, done that!)

I am going to give you the world's BEST advice now and I learned it the hard way ~~ BACK UP, Mom!! You have become a PART of the cycle of abuse instead of BREAKING it.

This guy is getting a fabulous rush with his two-for-one deal while you go downhill fast. He is dragging your daughter under and you as well - what a feeding frenzy this guy has!

The problem right now is that your daughter doesn't yet realize what is going on. You do, but really can't do anything about it. Really. You can't. Quit trying, as it is only exhausting you.

It is truly time to re-focus. Your daughter is still looking at him and you cannot change that ~~ only SHE can.

You CAN change YOUR focus. Take your energies and invest them in YOU.

This situation began several years ago. What have you lost in that time? What things did you used to do for yourself that you no longer engage in because of this attention-hogging situation? Besides, work ~ what did you do JUST FOR YOURSELF, that made you happy?

It is time to go back and reclaim all that was robbed from you (or find it for the first time). It is pointless to look at this guy and his antics ~ it only diverts your energies from where they need to go. Yes, this also means removing the focus from your daughter as well. If she wants to continue to keep him as the center of her universe, that is up to her. There is nothing you can do about that, but you can break his control over yourself by ceasing to be pulled into the drama.

The tone of your post seems to indicate that you may feel guilty about this guy being in the picture. Guilt can pull us into a lot of places that just aren't ours. It is NOT YOUR FAULT that he is a user. It is NOT YOUR FAULT that he is in your daughter's life. He is a user. That is HIS. You have no guilt here, no need to have given up your life in so many ways. Time to get it back.

Actually, by pulling back out of the situation, you will also be 'voting' for your daughter's competence as well. She is the person who is really in charge here, after all. She is the only person who can change what is going on. Have some confidence in this woman, have some confidence in how you raised her. Let it go and hand it all over to her, it is really hers anyway. Not yours.

Over-responsible moms get confused about what is theirs and what really belongs to their children. I know I did. Smashing yourself into a concrete wall is very exhausting and does no one any good, as I eventually found out. Go sit down and get yourself better ~ it is a fabulous alternative.

Best wishes,
Posted by: beesimple_43

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/21/06 08:44 PM

Hi Lizzie2002,

I think I understand feeling nervous about maintaining relationships with other people who know him. I'm partially still programmed to think he's got the "right" to "own" me, so I (irrationally) expect others to think his actions toward me define my self-worth. Or I think I have to explain everything in order to contradict that assumption, then I worry about sounding extreme.

I really appreciated Deb's reply. It ISN'T your fault. You are doing the right thing to break off contact with him even through other people. And you can still be yourself, say goodbye to the shadow.

You have an honest right to be loved and cared for by others on the basis of who you are.

peace to you,
Posted by: onesinglebubble

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/22/06 12:36 PM


Thank you for the ideas. My son called to check in and I mentioned this site to him...and your ideas for's one on those "Why don't you ever listen to me?" momments for him. He's tried to get security installed for such a long time...I just didn't see that it would be effective because HE is so masterful at breaking and entering, quietly. Evidence! My son says he can install cameras that are hidden so not to tip HIM off.

I sort of feel like I can think more clearly right now (the safety of prison?) more likely that I am talking about it and my son sounds caring and forgiving...thinking of soulutions.

HE comes from a family that have all been incarcerated I have learned...met several during the trial that I only attended twice in support of my daughter...I would be so afraid of retaliation from his family if I spoke to the parole board as well as HIM.

During the trial we learned about a neighbor he had three years ago. A young woman that asked him not to park his truck so close to her car because she couldn't open her car door...HE became so irrate with her that he smashed her car's front window out. He was arrested and released charges dropped. I learned a street story, again from 3 years ago; HE was at a party and got into a fight with a guy that's probably about 45. Everyone was evidently very drugged and drinking. HE got so irrate that he started hitting the other fellow and knocked his eye out! Street justice...other guys around jumped on HIM and strangled him and beat him almost to death. I remember seeing him back then and was horrified at his condition...bruises all over his neck, the whites of his eyes were completly gone...replaced by red and his whole face swollen...then there were multiple cuts all over his face and head...hands swollen...I had no idea what had happened, but his grandmother ended up tending his wounds. There is just so much violence surrounding him.

For a little while I stayed in contact with his grandmother who grieves for the way her daughter (HIS mother)has lived and treated her four children. They have all stolen from the grandmother...her oldest son just packed her up and has moved her to the far northern region of our state where no one knows to find her. She called me before she left and cried...we will miss our phone calls together but I support her move and need to.

So is this condition psychopath organic...environmental? What I know now that he has used. He smokes, snorts, ingests and injects Meth, Herion, Oxy, ecstasy, cocaine (crack), vicodine, pot and massive amounts of alcohol accoriding to my daughter. She says the times they broke up he always cleaned up the drugs and then she'd take him back. He was very remorsefull, tears and apologies with her. Can all those drugs create a psychopath condition? Can the early years of a developing brain and body that aren't given proper nutrition or nurturing create it? Thank you for taking the time to read this. Onesinglebubble
Posted by: onesinglebubble

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/22/06 12:57 PM

Thank you Deb. Sometimes when I think about all of this I have trouble breathing. I've isolated so much it's difficult to leave my house. On the bright side my doctor who is very aware of most of what's happened has encouraged me to get involved with two groups thru our hospital. I feel safe going there, in-part because I go and no one knows me and I can just simply focus on the health and solutions at hand...I'm loosing weight and feeling better. You are so right. I do feel too involved so I've been working on sharing less with my daughter...becoming less dependent and encouraging her in her own efforts at rebuilding herself with her job and school. We had a comfortable success yesterday. It was her day off and we spent the day just doing what was once our own spaces...I altered some of her summer clothes (she's tiny but had lost so much weight during the trial) then we cooked together and watched a video of short films. It's been a long time since we laughed and relaxed and HE never was mentioned in any way shape or form. My WOWS for the week have been breaking the isolation. I've invited old friends over twice this's all very twilight zone but these were safe people because they weren't ever involved with HIM. I haven't shared this site with my daughter, it's been a very long time since our relationship had the healthy boundries of parent and child. Again thank you...your words gave me gooseflesh...honesty does that. Thank you. Onesinglebubble
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/22/06 02:35 PM

Hi onesinglebubble, I was doing some research the other day for a dear friend. I have some neighbors who have cameras for outside that do record in the dark,(they are just extremely security conscience) and believe me it is pitch dark here because there aren't any street lights etc. Also a good idea is what they call "nanny cams" that can be hidden about anywhere (I don't know about the lighting needed for those to record). Try going to [] and type in (spy store) If you go that route make sure someone like your son knows where they are set up. Also look for one that doesn't loop too quickly and record over a tape.

Will be back later, just heard some thunder,

Posted by: onesinglebubble

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/22/06 11:00 PM

Diane...I know this heat and storm situation we have across the country is nothing to laugh at be that as it may I love your message that you risk between lighting storms and I sat here and got the giggles. I've been running 2 window ac's and 5 fans so I'm on the computer minutes at a time because I have to turn off one air conditioner...we are at day 10 of triple digits with a forecast of several more...worrying about power again strikes me funny...I've been inspired to put batteries in my cd player and Peter Gabrielle and I have even danced a bit today...Shakin The Tree...he gives good power in "It's A Womans Day"...I called my son with the "spy" info you suggested...seems that there is an actual Spy Store about 5 miles down the road from where I live...we'll go see what the options are and develop a plan. Today I resisted speaking about HIM with someone else involved I just feel the communication has to stop...I read that in someone else's post and that it was affirmed...makes it easier to breathe. Oh my I should shut down again it's almost 8 p.m. and the weather station says we are still 107! Crash! thank you onesinglebubble
Posted by: onesinglebubble

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/22/06 11:18 PM

Well I was going to shut down but I re-read your post to me and realized something you said towards the end. That by me stepping out of all this and taking care of my own needs it will be a lot easier, for me, by thinking of it as "voting for her competence". I love collecting quotes that help me stay in the need of the moment. I read somewhere recently that if you want to change a behavior you need to repeat it 21 times. It's so simple a suggestion, my daughter has benefited from life examples from both my mother and myself, she has been raised with strength and decency and faith shared by some wonderful friends and right now WE have her eyes. we can set the example. I'm voting on my own competence too. Thank you. one
Posted by: velvetorchid

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/25/06 03:06 PM

Hi everyone
I've been reading this website on and off for months now and it has been a great help. I swing in and out of being convinced that the guy I was seeing is a psychopath or extreme narcissist, and am angry that I still seem to keep swinging. I really need to hear your thoughts.
I met him online. He turned out to be 14 years older than his advertised age--20 years older than me (he can pass for the younger age...the wonders of botox as it turns out). This should have been a sign right away. There was another one. When I first met him at a cafe he didn't care that he walked right past a line of about 20 people waiting for a table, just sat himself down. When I mentioned it he laughed and said that he doesn't wait in lines.
I was desperately lonely. Been divorced and single for a number of years, living in a strange city out of my own country for 3 years and having difficulty meeting good people, something I've never had a problem with. So I decided to overlook these initial red flags. He was/is handsome and incredibly charismatic. Multi-lingual, travelled, fascinating and intense family history, glamourous. Wore leather, drives a motorcycle, had great style (I found later that many of his belt buckles hid small knives in them). I got totally sucked in. He was very very convincing. He was in tears after a couple of meetings, telling me he felt broken and that I was the only person who he had ever felt he could talk to and be himself with. I found out along the way he has pre-cancerous cells, every form of hepatitis, and various other chronic health issues. It turned out he had split up with his wife of 23 years--he said it was over a year earlier and the marriage had been over for years. After a while I found out that he was still seeing his wife, had not yet told her it was over even though they were living apart, *and* she thought she was moving back in with him. He said he didn't want to sleep with me until the divorce was under way but it turned out it was because his wife still had keys to the house and was regularly coming over--he didn't want her to find me in bed with him. When I asked him about this after a couple of weeks--during which time he was intense and charming and I felt like I had never been so loved or understood--he lost his temper completely and accused me of mistrusting him and being crazy. He emailed me saying that he never wanted anything to do with me again, that I was dead to him.
After a week of not seeing him I contacted him. Here my own issues are obvious--I grew up in an abusive environment and my mother is a pathological narcissist, maybe borderline, so I'm kind of immune to certain levels of madness. I also have my own swings and insecurities and tend to take too much responsibility for the bad behaviour of others because of my own shame. I thought I must have gotten it wrong.

We started seeing each other again and his divorce got under way. There were a couple of days when he cooked for me and was so kind and warm and loving that I couldn't believe my good fortune. I had never been so well-treated or cared for.
Then I started to get sick. I was sick in some mild but debilitating form the whole year I was seeing him. Every time I went into his house I felt sicker and increasingly exhausted. When I got home I would have to sleep for hours. He never did another thing for me, not even get me a glass of water.
He had a friend move in who was a recovering cocaine addict. He had been a heroin addict and alcoholic and had been sober for many years, so opened his house to others trying to get sober. I thought this was evidence of his compassion which he has a lot of rhetoric about, yet it seemed that his house was constantly filled with sick people all of whom he had working for him in some form or another--fixing his house, doing his shopping, cooking for him, etc. He avoids all menial tasks. This friend would walk into his bedroom when we were in bed together whenever he felt like it. When I asked about having some privacy he said that I was jealous of his friends.
I couldn't sleep properly when I was with him as he snored, would sleep odd hours and frenetically. He said this was all new. (I found out later from seeing doctor's reports that he'd been doing it for years and it was one of the reasons that his wife was concerned that he had returned to drug use. When she confronted him about this he exploded and that is what essentially ended the marriage. I noticed that he took over a hundred different tablets every day for his various ailments). He frequently withheld sex and/or did the complete opposite of what I asked him to do. Despite that I told him that I had to sleep regular hours and get enough sleep or I'd get sick, he'd wake me at 3am for sex.
He would hang up in the middle of a conversation and say he'd forgotten he was talking to me. He'd say that he forgot things as justification for him not doing things he said he would, but seemed to have a photographic memory for everything that I told him about myself which he would use against me in arguments. Every problem was my fault. He would react explosively if I ever disagreed with him or wanted to do something different from him. We rarely ever left his house and soon I found myself acting as another of his unpaid servants.
He was always an average of 3 hours late. He often cancelled dates with me without letting me know till several hours after the time we were meant to meet. I was rarely able to contact him when I needed or wanted to. Would have to leave a message and wait for him to call at his own convenience. He said that he'd help me move house then stopped speaking to me for precisely the period of days it took me to do it and then started speaking to me again in time for me to cook Christmas dinner for him and the various people at his house. He was never available when I needed him.
I tried to call things off with him a number of times saying that we were at different stages of our lives, that I wanted a family and he was dismantling one, and that we could just walk away in a mature fashion. Each time he convinced me that I was wrong, that he did want a family and he was only hesitant because I was abusive. He said that I was offending him by failing to acknowledge everything he gave me.
I hired an assistant for him to help with his divorce proceedings. He worked on it 7 days a week, full-time. He doesn't do anything else. He was working to prove that he should give his ex nothing. Within several weeks his assistant quit saying that he had asked her to commit fraud and that she had enough evidence against him to file suit. He said that she was crazy, and that she had experienced a psychotic break because of me.
Two weeks earlier I took an overdose. I'd had a fever for a month, hadn't slept properly for 8 months, was completely maxed out to the point of being unable to work, and when I told him that I needed not to see him until I got better he exploded and accused me of denying him and blaming him for my sickness. He said I never thought of him and our relationship was all about me and all he did was cater to me.
I went to see his therapist and told her I didn't think that I had the resources to stay in the relationship and that I'd started to have suicidal thoughts. She said she thought I needed to be less clingy, but said he was very lucky to have me.
I kept having the suicidal thoughts. I felt completely trapped, like whatever I did would be the wrong thing.
Another week of accusations from him, serious fever, him saying he'd meet me at the emergency room and not showing up. Him saying he'd look after me and bring me food and then just disappearing. When I said that I needed to go home so that I had my things around me and could look after myself he told me I was abusive and to get out of his house and he never wanted to see me again. That was when I took the pills. I couldn't calm down, felt I had nowhere to go, completely lost my balance. I felt like I was so bad that I'd be better off dead. I drove home and called him. He called the ambulance, came to the hospital briefly, gave me money for a cabfare home and left. He told me he would come to see me in the hospital and didn't show up saying he had fallen asleep and that my behaviour had caused him too much trauma. The one occasion that he did come to the hospital he came after visiting hours had ended. He said he could arrange to have his assistant pick me up when I was released but that the early hour was a problem.
Meanwhile he was literally wrecking his house so that the evaluation would be lower so he could pay his ex less.
At the end of that week his assistant quit. And his coke-addict friend stole his computer and disappeared. He blamed both on my overdose. The coke-addict's girlfriend kidnapped the animals in the house. My guy sent her a threatening message from my cell phone and two weeks later I was served with a restraining order from her and a court date. He assured me he would say that it was him. Instead he had his lawyer draft a letter arguing that it was impossible that it was him.
When I got out of hospital his therapist told me I obviously had bipolar disorder and that what had happened between him and me was clearly the result of my pathologies. My own shrink said I had suffered a psychic trauma.
We saw *his* therapist because he wouldn't see anyone else as he doesn't trust them. He told her that all he wanted was to make me happy, but that I wasn't making myself clear and wasn't asking for what I wanted and I was confusing him by expecting him to read my mind.
She told him that I had to get regular sleep. He promised to support that. He continued his nightly behaviour including waking me for sex.
Some friends staged a mini-intervention and told me I had to get away from him, that I had turned into a different person and been constantly sick since I'd been seeing him. I resolved to end it. That day he found out that a family member was dying. He asked me to help him prepare to leave town to visit the family. That preparation took over a week. During this time he hired a young blonde assistant and stuck a photo of him with her up on his bedroom wall. I found him lying on his bed with her one day. He said I was stupid for thinking there was anything going on as she is a lesbian.
His uncle died. He asked me to stay in his house while he was away at the funeral. I had seen on his email the morning I took him to the airport various emails from dating websites. This was when he asked me to print his itinerary from there. He said they were just ads and he'd been trying to unsubscribe. The night he left I looked at his email. His former assistant spoke to me and said that she had seen a lot of strange things and caught him in a lot of lies and it was time I found out. I found that he had been on adult sex sites and other dating websites throughout the period I'd been seeing him. I also found emails from him to various callgirls offering them thousands of dollars to spend the night with him. He had always told me he wasn't into young women, especially not 18 year olds and I believed him. I thought he was a really unique guy. Most of the messages were to women that age.
I called him and asked what was going on. He told me that I was sick for upsetting him with this at such a bad stage for him, that he was in the middle of a terrible divorce, and that he couldn't deal with me and hung up. He was enraged that I didn't stay to care for his house.
Since then he has said that he was only doing the stuff with other women because of my instability and needed an escape route. He tried to deny it altogether but I have printed evidence. At a session he arranged with his therapist for him to break up with me--he told me this in advance--he became enraged when I agreed that we should break up. He said he couldn't understand, that I was blindsiding him and that he never wanted to speak to me again. I agreed to no contact. For the next week he sent me a stream of abusive communications accusing me of smelling blood and trying to kill him for his money.
He says he still can't understand my behaviour, and says he doesn't remember doing any of the things that I claim that he did as he was too upset by me.
He convinced me that I was the one with the problem and I ended up getting back with him for a few weeks! I realised I was frightened of him and what he would do to me if I didn't do what he wanted. During that time our sexual relationship changed. He went from withholding to actively pursuing it. He started telling me about wanting to watch me with other men, and started buying chains and whips and rope to use on me. He sent me a number of porn videos that featured bound women, crying while they were being abused and used.
I went back to my country for a couple of months to get away. My friends and family told me I looked shocking. I got regrounded there and felt well and functional.
He tells me he loves me and I've got it all wrong. I've tried no contact with him and each time he's re-engaged me through emotional manipulation--crying, being hysterical, saying he's desperate and has no one else. Part of me loves him and I know I have my own issues and I can't seem to separate his from mine. I read about codependency, inverted narcissists and think: oh I have a real problem. At other times though I feel like I believed in someone I loved and was prepared to cut him a lot of slack by seeing past his damage, and that I shouldn't pathologize myself for that.
Every time I read this forum and stuff about psychopaths and/or narcissists he fits all the criteria. His lies continue, including to his therapist, he has turned everyone he knows against me. He said he would never speak to me again. I heard from his old assistant that he has been seeing a lot of people, and has become obsessed with his young assistant. She is thinking of launching a sexual harrassment suit against him as he told her he dreams of her naked. He tells the women that he's completely emotionally available and told me that he won't be with anyone as he's running too fast and still loves me. Last night he sent me a message saying "I love you darling." I'm back alone in this crazy city where I seem to get unbalanced so easily. He is the only person I know here who I have been "close" to.
Posted by: lizzie2002

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/26/06 05:18 AM

Thanks for your messages. I know I am not to blame for what Dev did but I totally understand what besimple means when you say you feel the need to explain why it wasn't your fault. I think people will think I am stupid for not seeing the reality sooner (in fact one 'friend' has said as much and been pretty nasty about it all). I also worry new people I meet (guys in particular) will think I am a bit gullible if they know about what has happened and take advantage again. I know I'd have to be pretty unlucky to meet another psychopath but I feel like I might attract them! (I had a boyfriend when I was about 17 who was pretty awful to me, left my self esteem at rock bottom and stole £2,000 from me!) I was much more careful after the first possible P and I didn't give Dev money etc like I might have done. I suppose I'll have to just be even more careful now.

I keep having nightmares at the moment. I feel slightly scared by Dev. He has hit one girl and cut her hair off which I think is odd behaviour. I keep dreaming he's trying to hurt me or getting other people to do it. He hasn't done anything to suggest he is likely to hurt me and I have had no direct contact with him since I found out what he was doing (apart from a few late night calls from no number who hang up- I suspect this is Dev). I suppose it's just the trauma of everything that has happened.

I went away for a weekend to Dublin in Ireland and I felt so happy and relaxed and free from Dev and everything about him. The nightmares stopped. I hope in time I'll be able to feel like that in my home town too.

Thanks agaian,

Liz x
Posted by: mia-issima

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/26/06 10:02 AM

hi velvetorchid,

I've read your story with great interest as it reminds me a lot of what I've experienced, from the meeting online to the sexual things you tell.

You write "He was/is handsome and incredibly charismatic. Multi-lingual, travelled, ". It seems types like that are especially able to con their prey into the situation they want them in as mine was a little bit like that too or at least believes he is and quite successfully projects that image being trained in sales.

You write you were lonely and thus vulnerable, mine perceived me as lonely and told me so; quite obviously "loneliness" is something they are after making things easier for them, as has been pointed out here again and again.

"he lost his temper completely and accused me of mistrusting him and being crazy. He emailed me saying that he never wanted anything to do with me again" This behaviour was used by mine as well and it worked in my case: I also took responsibility and reproached myself for maybe having hurt . I still cannot see it like they consciously manipulate their prey this way, but I do think this behaviour is something they may have watched and learned in childhood, it just comes naturally. And it works, with people like us, codependents, like you put it.

You describe your P as someone who never did anything for you but got people to work for him unpaid. The same happened in a very, very mild form to me. For the few things I did for the P I was chased by I never even received a "thank you" much less something in return.

We've arrived at the sexual things now and I use your lines as a stimulus to tell my experiences, please forgive me for that. But there are others here with far more valuable recommendations than mine. My experiences though still might serve to help others to see the signs much earlier.

Back to the sex. You write he woke you often in the middle of the night for sex and that he engaged in dating sites and bought chains and whips to use on you. That all sounds very familiar. I think your P used you as a live in "animated inflatable doll".

The P I met showered me (for "flirting") with invitations for sex in any imaginable form. He sent porn pics, links to those, owns several web sites which advertise that filth and up to now probably tries to send me URLs to all this (which I don't see any more, having instructed my mail programs properly).

He is married as well and claims he f**ed a woman in every city he visited as a salesman. He tried to "share" sexual phantasies with me that can be described as: He is looking for an animated inflatable doll to put to life everything he has seen on the net. When I pointed out he should just buy a hooker he was not repulsed at the thought, but I'm under the impression it is the payment that puts him off. I see a strong parallel to your P here: Both are out to get things for free everbody else assumes to have to pay for.

The P that pursued me was obviously so convinced he could get every woman to be his free hooker that he even told me: I do not have to pursue "romantic" strategies, I get what I want, it's just a matter of time.

He as well displayed a taste for violent porn with women being not only degraded but worse, just like yours did.

I thank some higher power that might have protected me here for the fact that he overdid it, that the things he displayed were so apalling for me that I never fell for them. I kind of semi-detachedly observed and learned from them.

I cannot begin to imagine how it must feel to be in an actual physical, intimate relationship like you were with a being like that.
But I try to feel with you and if you need to relieve yourself some more by telling, please feel free. If I might give something by listening and commenting, my pleasure.

My opinion on your situation is: Either get a complete new life in the city you live in now, devoting all your time to finding new friends, a new social surrounding preventing being lonely and thus gullible. Or, better in my opinion: Leave and go to where your family is as you have been feeling so much better there. If that is a possible option for you, I'd definitely go for that.

You mentioned you are not in the country of your birth. The intercultural issues that come with that are in my opinion part of the problem, in your case maybe much differently than in mine. But they are to my opinion: The P that chased me is arab and valued me (european brunette) for being "blonde", which I ain't, or only in his perception, which is very telling in my opinion.

Thank you for sharing your story here and thus enabling me to understand and cope with mine to some higher degree than before, in fact "some higher degree each week".
You also are on a good way so far, having understood things clearly, your feelings will follow, mine did. Be confident!
Posted by: kate3

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/26/06 05:32 PM

Hi. I'm new. So much sounds so familiar. The real life experiences described here have confirmed what the articles and books I have been reading lately have lead me to suspect - I have just ended a realtionship with my very own P.

One thing I haven't come accross yet is some info on the relationship a P might have with a minor child, where the child showed lots of P potential. The only way I can describe their relationship is that he used her as a weapon to cause chaos and unhappiness and also to control situations. Examples: wouldn't allow the elder daughter her own room because the little P wouldn't respect her privacy anyway, would keep me hanging on until the last minute over weekend plans because little P hadn't decided if she wanted me and my daughter along, would complain about her behavior (usually involved lying and manipulation) but tell me, in front of her ?!?, that there was nothing he could do as she didnt respond to punishment, told me that if one day we were minutes away from getting married and little P said she didn't want it, then it wouldn't happen (definately wanted me to feel vulnerable to this kid). I could go on.

She was extremely difficult to be around (disruptive, aggressive, dishonnest, had a need to know what everyone was doing all the time, watched you like crazy and commented on every little thing you did). At first I thought she was just an unusual and challenging child and that he was too permissive as a parent and allowed her too much control perhaps because of guilt (his wife had been ill most of her life and eventually died).

My relationship with P has been over for several months now (lasted nearly 2 years) and I have sinced gained a different perspective. Although this kid seemed to frustrate the hell out of him (lots of long conversations about how awful she made his life), he refused to try to do anything about it and became very defensive when I made comments or suggestions, even ones like let me spend some one on one time with her and see if some extra attention helps. Total resistance. He presented her to me and sympathetic neighbours, teachers, ect, as his cross to bear. All I can think is that he liked to be "the poor guy who had so much to handle".

He was reluctant to give over any control in our relationship to me, but seemed to willingly offer it to this child. Not so his other daughter though. In fact he allowed the younger girl to bully the older one. It was really confusing and really weird. It's like they were a team.

I guess what I'm wondering is this: can it be genetic, like being athletic or brainy and she inherited it, or did he make this girl what she is? The girl's personality and behavior came to my attention as bizarre long before his strangeness started to add up. Anyone else have any experience with something like this?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/27/06 10:28 AM

Hi 3

Welcome to the forum and it’s interesting to hear your story, in many ways it’s similar to my own.

My partner had custody of his 9 year old son when we got together. I have a grown up son and many nephews and nieces but I’d never met a kid like his before. Although I could see his behaviour was a little odd and he was spoiled I put it down to being brought up by a single man who had never even held a child before he had his own. He had no idea what was normal and what wasn’t as well as being over-indulgent as he also felt a bit guilty that his ex didn’t want her own son. My partner got him when he was 6 years old as she couldn’t tolerate him any longer and when she remarried the kid did all he could to break up the marriage. History was to repeat itself with me.

Unlike your partner, mine was very willing to let me take the lead on parenting and was very willing to be helped and guided. I tried absolutely everything and all it did was to make his kid try and control me. It isn’t until you live with kids like this on a daily basis do you realise how all-consuming it is, not only on your time but also your vigilance. You always have to be one step ahead.

The symptoms you describe are classic right down to the hypervigilance, wanting to know your every move.

I have posted recently about Dr Essi Viding, her results from studying children are in the resources section and also information from her will be in my previous posts, you may like to read about it.

The condition is highly heritable and in my partner’s case his ex has an Antisocial Personality Disorder but never diagnosed. His brother has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the kid has a “bad cocktail of genes” from both sides of the family.

I’m pleased to hear that you have got away from the stressful relationship, there is nothing you can do to make a difference to these people so it’s best not to waste another minute trying.

My partner’s son went back to the ex recently and our life starts now because with the kid around it was not possible.
Dr Viding said if one person in the family is sick and they can’t be cured then it’s best to cut them loose or they will make all the other members of the family sick.

I wish you well now you are away from the problem-don’t ever be tempted to go back.

Posted by: kate3

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/27/06 05:17 PM

Hi Jan

I have just checked out your post describing your visit with Dr. Viding. Long before I realized that my partner was a big part of the problem, I started checking out information on behavior disorders in kids and when I came accross RAD, I felt like I had finally found something that applied. I started trying to figure out why she would have this condition but nothing seemed like enough to explain RAD, as the articles I read seemed to be saying that it is caused by severe neglect or abuse in the first year. Still, it seemed such a match that I thought, somehow, something must have gone just wrong enough…I was convinced it was RAD for a long time. Time consuming oh yes, even though I never lived with this girl I would find she occupied my thoughts almost constantly, although I know how crazy that would sound to most people. I can't even imagine living with her. "You have to stay one step ahead." At least.

The comment that if Ps are given everything they want, they are not nearly as disruptive registers with me. Little P was always on the prowl for some item and if she got it, things could be quite OK for a while. This applied equally to non-material stuff. She was well known for phoning round the neighbourhood early in the morning, asking to speak to the mother of the house and then demanding to know what “we” are doing today. People felt sorry for this little kid with the sick (and later dead) mother and usually tried to come up with an offer. She would call several people, pick the best offer and then ring the losing candidates and back out. If her plans worked she was happy, if not, trouble. My boyfriend let her do it. Sometimes he claimed not to know she was making the calls, which I believed at the time, not now. People in our community when crazy out of their way for them, one woman I know ended up talking to a therapist after she started having marital problems over how much attention she was giving this family.

Another thing I keep mulling over is what are the chances of two P’s being able to sustain a 20 year relationship? One of the reasons I thought my P was a good guy, despite evidence stacking up to the contrary, was that he had been married to the same woman for 15 years, been with her 5 years before that, and stuck with her throughout a 3 year illness. Then I heard strange reports about this woman. Kind of started to make me wonder because there’s no way I could have lasted with this guy for 20 years. I was verging on insanity when we finally split. He claimed their marriage was good but when he described a lot of things, it didn't sound good to me. Could the two of them have found a symbiosis?
Posted by: kate3

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/27/06 05:25 PM


I'm fairly new here. Does anyone know how to change my name that appears in the side bar? I was trying for "Kate3" and ended up as "3".

Also, does anyone have any insight into these:

I am not exaggerating when I say there were easily 500 pairs of socks in the house (3 people) not to mention the 3 grocery bags full of odd ones, which he kept in the closet in case their mates showed up. When I tired to make a joke of this one day, he was EXTREMELY DEFENSIVE and could not see ANY HUMOUR in it at all. He was the same with towels.

Looked at bargain food shop flyers every Saturday for “deals” and absolutely packed his freezers to the point where he had to throw out the boxes so that it would all fit. When you looked inside it was a mass of frozen processed food in cellophane wrappers. No labels, dates, nothing. This past Christmas he actually dug down to the bottom for some reason and found a roast from 1997.

His mother seemed really uncomfortable around him, like she didn’t want to offend him. Ditto his sister to a lesser degree.

Allowed the dog to use the basement floor as a litter box. He insisted that the 13 year old clean it up (as a chore), which of course she rarely did. Result – it sat there for sometimes days at a time. When you went in the back door the smell knocked you out in the summer. He sometimes used having to pick up dog poo as an excuse not to do planned activities. There was nothing wrong with this dog physically as when I babysat her at my house, she was totally toilet trained.

He told me repeatedly that his mind was always busy, that he was always thinking, 100% of the time. He also claimed that he slept only about 4 hours a night on average and that this was normal and OK for him.

He could predict what was going to happen on a television program or in a movie with amazing accuracy.

Claimed that he never smiled. This was sort of true. Once I started watching, he really didn’t.

Claimed that most people weren’t quick enough to keep up with him, that much of what he said “went over most people’s heads”. He was referring to “jokes” that he made. Out of the blue, he told you something that was kind of weird, but could be true. The joke was when you believed what he was saying. He would get irritated that you hadn’t “gotten the joke”.

Strongly identified as an aggressive person and was very defensive whenever someone spoke negatively of aggression even in a theoretical way.
Posted by: lizzie2002

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/01/06 09:02 AM

I am really interested in what has been written here about the way a P views sex. My P seemed like an addict! He had 3 girlfriends and apparently had one night stands too.

I didn't have sex with him for the first couple of months of our relationship. He slpet in a bed with me a couple of times and although he was very keen for things tp progress (and pushed it so I felt mildly uncomfortable) he didn't actually try and force me. He always went on about how rape was the WORST thing a man could do- perhaps one of the only true things he ever said!

After we started to be intimate I found things a little odd. He didn't seem to want to enagage in any kind foreplay just sex. When we had sex I never felt like we connected in the way I thought we should. I thought about it a lot but in the end I decided he was just different to my ex and that I was being paranoid.

A few months in I had a few health probs which meant we could not have sex as often as he wanted. He became quite nasty. One night he said I never wanted to be with him and if I was going to be like that he was going to leave. He was ready to get up and leave the house at 1am because I would not have sex! (we didn't live together). In the end I gave in. Another time we had friends round. I'd been in hospital and could not have sex for 3 weeks. Half way through the night he said he felt frustrated and so wanted to go home to watch porn and he'd come back later. He did come back but I thought it was odd. I always felt like a failure because I couldn't satisfy him.

He always wanted to have sex in risky places (I've since found out he had sex with other girls in my car!) I am not saying that in itself is strange (apart from the other girls in my car!). A lot of people like something exciting in their sex lives but I would have thought it should be mixed with more emotional loving sex but he never seemed to want this. He would not look at me or tell me he loved me when we were initimate. He once told me he'd been a sex addict but then after winding me up and saying he'd had therapy for it said it was all a joke!

The image of a doll strikes a chord with me. I think he just wanted to use girls for his sexual gratification with no regard for the girl and with no connection between love and sex. He always said loads of other girls fancied him to me and his other girlfriends. I can see he prob wanted to keep us in awe of him but what is strange is he used to say it to his male friends as well. If a girl looked at the group Dev would always say 'she wants me' and if she talked to another guy he'd try and move in on her. It's like his whole life was based around sex and people wanting him!

I just wanted to get a few things I have been thinking about our relationship off my chest really!

Posted by: kate3

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/01/06 07:39 PM

I can relate to the risky situations bit. My guy would often try to get things going when the children were around (school age children and a young teenager). They weren't in bed, or even on another floor of the house, usually just in the next room. Other strangeness in this area was the way he liked to put his hands around my neck, like choking I guess. This wasn't my idea of a good thing. Also pinching. Hated this more than the choking actually, as it really hurt. Arguments where he had managed to make me feel really bad about something seemed to be a real turn on. He actually showed up at my house at about 9:00 with his daughter one night after such and argument and kept after me for about an hour before giving up. He also seemed to have a higher than normal drive as he could perform (to completion) 3 or 4 times in the space of a couple of hours. Could be wrong, but I don't think this is the norm for a 45 year old man. The agression involved was what I noticed as really unusual. As far as other women go, no evidence that I ever found, but then we were only together 2 years. I think there were many secrets left to be discovered had I stuck around.
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/02/06 03:47 PM

This past Christmas he actually dug down to the bottom for some reason and found a roast from 1997

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/02/06 06:31 PM

Hi kate3,

I will add my two cents (during the weekend) to your question about the chances of 2 Ps being able to sustain a 20-yr relationship.

In short for now, the answer IMO is yes. I've witnessed it.

I'm sorry that you had to deal with a P, possibly two, and glad that you're out of the situation.

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/07/06 05:16 PM

Hi again,

I know a couple who I believe both have psychopathic personalities. They dated for about seven years before they got married.

For about the first thirteen years of their relationship, the guy's antisocial behaviour was more visible and it seemed like the female was frustrated with him, his irresponsibility, and apparent lack of logic when she tried to reason with him. Funnily enough, along the way, the female exhibited antisocial signs of her own, but I think we missed them because we were in denial and his behaviour overshadowed hers.

As long as I've know the guy, he's always talked about money, schemes, and been a braggart. Basically, insufferable. A few years into their marriage, he got wind of a fraudulent scheme and got both of them involved in it. Long story short, they've both been actively scamming others (including some relatives/friends), made lots of money, and their relationship seems to have noticeably improved. It's as if now that they've pooled their antisocial "talents" and victimized others, they've found common ground and created synergies. Ugh!

In fact, on CNN the other day, a commentator was saying it's becoming more common for these Psychopaths to work together in their criminal activities! <img src="" alt="" />

Posted by: neverthesame

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/08/06 12:13 AM

Hi Sylvie25. I, too, dealt with a psychopath couple. Seems that they feed off of each other and use each other to torment others...all part of their sick game which they take great pleasure in playing. The husband would call and warn me that his wife was "planning" something and then would make threats that I needed to meet with them or something bad would happen. Anything they can do or say to manipulate people into their wicked world, they will do. Sad, pathetic, jealous people, p's are.
Posted by: mia-issima

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/08/06 02:14 PM

hi neverthesame,

your "Sad, pathetic, jealous people, p's are" rings a bell with me.

The P that chased me reproached me for being "jealous", "full of anger" and "envious".

I could relate to him perceiving me as "full of anger" and "envious", due to his having spotted my weakest point to get something to torture me with.

But being reproached for being "jealous" by someone I'm not even involved with struck me as really completely foolish. I mean even if I were, I didn't have the slightest right to be and didn't even ask for anything that could possibly make someone jealous, were they inclined to.

He said that to me in a - for him - rather emotional moment (I presume) when I answered to something that he didn't expect me to.

So I have this theoretical thought as to why people become Ps:

Maybe their mothers didn't mirror their behaviours when they were toddlers, thus not helping them to attach the appropriate word (semantic meaning) to some experienced feeling, feeling used here both as emotional and bodily feeling.

What I'm trying to say is, maybe their mother was competent to teach them the meaning of "my tummy aches", but not the meaning of "I'm sad" for example.

Does this make any sense in the experts' eyes?
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/08/06 02:33 PM

Hi neverthesame,

I recall you mentioning that. Whether they're socially adept Ps or not, they're all lowlifes, point blank. I wonder with all the people affected by Ps, sometimes more than once, surely there will be a tipping point some day when society has had enough and feels threatened to the extent that something is finally done.

"Your" Ps sound like they had their tag team approach down pat.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/08/06 06:16 PM

Hi mia-issima, This is the nature vs. nurture discussion. Personally I weigh in on the nature side of things. I don't think people "become" a Psychopath but are born one. One theory I do agree with a more nurtured Psychopath will become a socialized Psychopath and run a company vs. ending up in prison if they are a less socialized one. My guess is Psychopaths can tend to project onto others things which in reality are things they do. For example, claiming to be loyal and saying having affairs is a terrible thing while all the time they are cheating with anything walking with a wallet.



P.S. I lost the post but there was an original neverthesame who is now going by neverthesame1, just so no one is confused.
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 08/19/06 12:34 PM

It seems like every single day, we turn on the TV and see stories that essentially involve P personalities. Whether it's the latest fat cat Corporate P, some wild-eyed dictator threatening death and destruction, some woman-hating serial killer....on and on. Yet no-one officially connects the dots....the unlikely silence on their rampage continues.

Just this past week, I've seen at least three programs like 48 hours featuring a story clearly involving a psychopath. The Shannon Melendi story for instance. That on top of the news.

It will come to the fore one day, because good people will finally make it so. Ps will receive official recognition for the blight on civilization that they are.

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 09/17/06 06:09 PM

I've been wondering whether people who suspect they have P relatives are more inclined to keep quiet about both their suspicions and that they are being victimized because they are too ashamed to mention that publicly. I have to think that's the case (maybe it's a no-brainer...). Even more so if the Ps are involved in criminal activity.

To carry other people's shame must surely be one of the most damaging things one can do to themself.

Another thought is that it's funny how many of us don't tell certain friends/colleagues etc. about our involvement with Ps I guess partly for fear that we might be rejected or considered weak etc. In a way, perhaps that's exactly what should be done (at least with friends/family) - what better way to screen out the superficial types.
Posted by: movingon

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 11/06/06 08:29 PM

I am new to this forum and find it very helpful and am very greatful that it exists. I wanted to find out if anyone has had the experience of their P compartmentalizing his/her friends.

My P did not let me come in contact with his other friends or family members. He is a social animal and seems to know everyone. He always spoke of his friends as that's "my boy" or that's "my girl", as if he and this person were very close. I had assumed that he had a multitude of extremely close friends. As time progressed I began to realize that these were very shallow friendships, and seemed more like aquaintances.

The one thing that struck me very oddly was that he conveniently excluded me from certain aspects of his life. Whenever any of his family members would come to town, I am omitted from the group. Also, he and I were just friends and spent an abundant amount of time together, yet when he would get together with his friends he would again exclude me from situation.

He is very clandestine and it seems as if he is very adept at making sure that the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

Has anyone else experienced this?
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 11/06/06 09:42 PM

Hi movingon, welcome to the forum. What first came to me is that the reason he would exclude the family if he is working several different targets. Or maybe he is afraid someone in the family who is wise to him might say something to whoever he brings around as a date. Or he says he is going to visit the family and does something entirely different. If I were to take a guess the visiting the family time could very well be just a cover for another activity.

Posted by: movingon

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 11/07/06 04:37 AM

Thanks for responding. To further my first post, his girlfriend and I were pretty good friends. He and I were in business together and as time went on, he started doing things like scheduling lunch with me and then change plans w/o letting me know, continually making excuses as to why he couldn't make sales calls, etc.

The last straw was that he told me he was going to run a quick errand and he came back 3 1/2 hours later. He came in as I was getting ready to leave. I asked him for future reference that if he were going to be gone for an indiscriminate amt. of time, please let me know. He exploded. It was none of my business where he was, blah, blah, blah. I didn't care where, what, etc. I just didn't want to be stuck, expecting him to return and him never coming back. He was so angry that I didn't even have to be in the argument. He starting arguing in circles and was VERY HATEFUL.

To give further information, my background is in psychology. He and I have had intense discussions regarding his background, etc. He grew up in a extremely difficult situation. When he and I were in business together, I interacted with some of his friends, but very rarely. I was never invited out socially with them. I did social things with him, or him and his girlfriend, but no one else. Still, never the family. One weird thing is that I had to call his sister about something one day, and I asked him if she would know who I was. He told me to just identify myself as his friend and she might recognize the name. When I spoke to her, she knew all about me.

His girlfriend and I were very close. I realized that he had antisocial characteristics, but wasn't ready to see the full blown picture. She and I would have lengthy discussions about his behavior. He was very emotionally and verbally cruel to her, but never to me. He was actually pretty decent towards me. I'm sure it was even worse than what she would admit to. The last she and I talked, her self esteem had digressed to the point that she couldn't even look in the mirror.

Anyway...after our fight, he and I made up to an extent. We have had a few lunches together, but his girlfriend won't even speak to me. She completely ignores my calls. I quit trying. I asked him if he knew why she wouldn't speak to me, but he said that he didn't.

I don't really know where I am going with this, but I think that I needed to put it in writing. Also, do you think that he made her cut off conversation with me?

When we see each other now, we always meet somewhere. I've not seen any of his friends since our fight. I wonder if any of his friends know that we speak.

Thanks for letting me ramble on!
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 11/07/06 08:58 AM

Hi movingon,

In reply to:

Also, do you think that he made her cut off conversation with me?

I would venture to say yes. That seems to be the pattern of abusers, they cut off the victim from friends and family.

When he was being as you describe VERY HATEFUL, what did you see in his eyes?

I would agree that your friend is probably taking more abuse than she is giving out. I think in a victim's mind somehow we all move into a state of denial.

Did I understand that you are no longer in business with him?

Posted by: Deb

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 11/07/06 10:24 AM

Hello movingon,

P's do keep the people in their lives VERY separate from each other. After all, it just would not do to have folks comparing notes, would it? You say that you and he spent a lot of time discussing his past and how he grew up in an "extremely difficult situation". The family members who he is keeping from interacting with you probably have the ability to confirm or deny that experience. If he has fabricated or embellished on this 'extremely difficult situation', he sure doesn't want you to find out. Do you have verification from ANYONE besides him as to what his childhood was really like?

A few well-placed lies would easily stop his girlfriend from talking with you. The conversations the two of you had were too beneficial for BOTH of you and he had to put an end to that. What if by talking with you, she was able to see what a bad place she was in? What if by talking to her, you were able to see even sooner what kind of person he REALLY is? Since P's are terribly afraid of the truth being known, I am sure he did something to end the talking.

You gave me a stroll down memory lane when you talked about him exploding on you and then arguing in circles. Wow, been there. It's amazing to watch the reaction of a P when confronted with the possibility of having to take ANY responsibility for their actions. And you just wanted him to be responsible enough to let you know that he was running late. That's all ~~ no biggie, and yet KABOOM!

Well, there's my two cents....guess I will go and finish my memory lane trip ~~ perhaps there is some unfinished business back there.

Best regards,
Posted by: movingon

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 11/07/06 10:32 AM

What I remember from our fight was that his stare was very intense and there seemed to be an intense anger in his eyes. I didn't really see an "icy stare". It felt like a wall was thrown up between us, a complete withdrawal or punishment.

To further the story, he is in trouble, of course, and is getting ready to be sentenced. I went with him to see his attorney. This was the week that our business relationship blew up.

Along with my P, I was asking the attorney what would happen in the sentencing. At one point, I began to explain what my P went through growing up. The attorney leaned in, began taking notes, and was listening very intently.

At the end of the meeting my P asked the attorney if anyone should speak on his behalf. The attorney emphatically suggested that I speak and wanted to make sure that I was going to be there. I have counseled inmates in the past and the attorney thought that my words would carry weight. It was odd because my P was not the focus at that point. I don't think that he was very pleased that I had usurped his position.

When we got in the car, the attorney called to make sure that I had written a character letter on my P's behalf. I thought that I would have been the hero of the day. Well, you would have thought that I had just handed him a bag of wet garbage. This was on a Tuesday. He immediately began distancing himself from me. He began critiquing my driving, how I handled conversations, etc. He even called himself a puppet master jokingly. I had a uneasy, indescribable feeling in my stomach that something was not right.

When the argument erupted three days later, all he could say was that I had brought emotion into the situation and that this was strictly a business relationship and there was no room for emotion. It was a horrible display of projection.

I felt like I was in the twilight zone. In our conversations since our fight, he continues to say he doesn't know what happened to me. I just let it go. I have wanted so desperately not to believe that he was sick and I have exhausted every angle in my denial, but alas, a duck is a duck.

No, he and I aren't in business together anymore. Since he refused to accept what I said, I told him that I was sorry that it had to end that way and left. I put some safety guards in place to make sure that if something happened I would be able to come out with minimal damage. I guess that I knew it all along.
Posted by: Deb

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 11/07/06 11:56 AM


Something here really clicks for me.

A psychopath is happy with a relationship as long as the person they are in it with believes all the lies that have been told. When the other person starts to question or seek the truth, the carefully constructed illusion is threatened and P's go into survival mode, a.k.a. scorch and burn.

It makes sense that your P lied about his past. (They really can't do anything BUT lie, so that is a safe assumption on my Here you were, willing to go and TESTIFY about things he had told you. You were going to proclaim things that he told you and possibly expose him for the liar that he really is. Oh-oh. It was just too scary to think that through this, the truth about him might have come out.

You might not have been actively questioning, but the threat of exposed truth was still there for him. P's are terrified of the truth. That was enough to send him into de-valuation mode, hence all the criticisms he began firing at you. You had scared the crap out of him and now who you were and what you knew had to be discounted.

Three days later, he does an inconsiderate and unreasonable thing, which you respond to by asking for courtesy. He explodes and projects the unreasonableness onto you. That is part of the scorch and burn. Anything you did say (either in court or not) that could damage his illusion of lies, could now be deflected by him. He had to quickly paint you as an emotional, possibly imbalanced person who misunderstood what he had told you in the past. This would insulate you and all the info he had given you during your relationship. 'Ha, no one will listen to anything she says now.' He is safe.

P's lie to everyone. But they tell different lies to different people. Plus, half the time I don't think they keep track of who they told what to. That is why they don't want those people talking to each other. The fear of what he had told you becoming known to ANYONE was too scary for him to handle and he withdrew FAST, just in case anything you said could expose his lies.

He will hold fast to saying that he doesn't know what happened to you, when in fact everything was happening to him. That threat of even possible exposure was overwhelming for him.

It sounds like your instincts did indeed know, and I am happy you escaped relatively unscathed. You really scared him though ~~ I wonder if there was specific info that you have that he was afraid of coming to light, or if it was just that he couldn't remember what all he had told you that might cause a problem. Did you still have to testify for him?
Posted by: movingon

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 11/07/06 08:27 PM

Thanks so much for your insight Deb! You really gave me a lot to chew on. I am having trouble with the thoughts of testifying on his behalf. I'm very torn. From an ethical standpoint, well from any standpoint, it would be wrong to request leniency from the judge for a man who does not deserve leniency. The sad part of it is, if I do, and the judge does depart from the recommended sentence, then I guess my P will be laughing his head off on the inside. Score one on the fool!

I HATE everything about this situation. I am so mad at myself for getting involved with him and being so gullible. It's so hard to believe that someone can mirror another's personality and be so adept at it. What is behind the mask? I know I am speaking rhetorically here. It just breaks my heart for everyone concerned. You just want to find some redeemability in everyone, and when all signs point to NO, it just confuses the crap out of me.

I continue to try to find alternative explanations. Reconciling the fact that someone you let in and you bonded with so closely and cared for so deeply doesn't care if you live or die as long as you serve their needs, and can discard you like yesterday's garbage. What's it all for, nothing. I feel like nothing.

One question comes to mind. My P would speak about women in a very derogatory manner. Is that indicative of most male P's or do they feel that way about all people?
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 11/07/06 09:51 PM

Hi movingon, luckily we have a conscience. Without a conscience, anything that suits them and it is to his/her benefit. Psychopaths seem to have a pattern of complaints about their so called rotten family or many other "tricks" to keep the victim under his control and not question why no family is in his picture. Many of them have so many women on the "hook" at a time and I would guess it would also get complicated bringing so many women around. It would also ruin the "my childhood was a disaster" sob story to explain away bad behavior. Telling bad stories to a kind person is going to elicit what the Psychopath wants, money etc. and will walk away in the wink of the eye when he has drained your existence. They have an uncanny way to read people.

Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 11/08/06 06:27 AM

Hi movingon,

As others here have said, Ps always use a "divide and conquer" strategy to great effect. It's all about control and having the upper hand to them and they will try to isolate you both from others they know and if possible from your own support network. Besides, stirring things up is just what they do recreationally - they enjoy causing distress and mayhem.

Re: your question about how Ps feel about women, in my experience male Ps are the ultimate misogynists (their charm and flattery initially disguises that). The P I dated had disparaging things to say about all his female relatives but one. Granted three of them (mother/g'ma/sis) did seem to have serious personality/character issues. The only one he seemed to like was an aunt who apparently had been kind to him as a child. My other observation is that MANY Ps seem to have troubled/twisted relationships with their mothers. It seemed to me that P projected his antipathy towards his mother on his other female relatives/acquaintances.

You just want to find some redeemability in everyone...

I can relate to that and yet it made me shudder. Ps absolutely count on that sentiment in others. IMO, good faith, goodwill, loyalty etc. are wasted upon a P....pearls before swine. The very qualities that give us our humanity are the same ones Ps use as weapons against us - tough stuff to come to terms with.

Posted by: kludgette

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 12/06/06 07:30 AM

My Psychopath likes to call all his friends his "Brother". He never really cut me off from his friends or family...he cut off most of his old friends after we were together 2 months (he burned bridges so to say). He never excluded me from family...but did get upset if I talked to his mom on the phone. I was told I was never to talk to her on the phone other than to say "I'll have Nate call you when he gets home" - if he wasn't home. He felt we would talk about him behind his back. He excluded me from my friends...that became his friends after the birth of our daughter. I do think that was so they wouldn't tell me what he was up to while I was home pregnant. I don't think he cheated "all the way", but I bet he was close. This was a sore spot for me as I liked to get out every now and then. He told me once, "your a mom now, you need to stay home and take care of our daughter". Then he'd leave. Drinking problem on top all the other problems he had.
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 02/24/07 04:45 PM

I am a huge movie buff and I have to mention a couple of movies I saw recently that featured psychopaths as one of the main characters.

The first was "The Vanishing" with Jeff Bridges, Sandra Bullock and Kiefer Sutherland. It's an old movie (1990). I saw it back then too but at that time I really didn't know much about socially-adept Ps even though I was sitting next to one while watching it (Psychopath ex) . It would have been interesting observing his reactions!

The next one was "Bad Influence" with Rob Lowe and James Spader. I've seen this one before too but couldn't remember much. Lowe plays the psychopath and does an absolutely masterful job of portraying its traits - recklessness, lack of empathy, disregard of others rights, extreme vengefulness and FLAT emotional affect. He was a particularly good choice because of his pretty boy looks - a worthwhile and sinister reminder that anyone can be a Psychopath.

Just a note of caution: I found one part of "Bad Influence" HIGHLY disturbing so perhaps you should read a review beforehand.

I find it helpful to watch these just to compare and contrast with "my" Ps.

Posted by: tkme

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 02/25/07 12:36 AM

"What's it all for, nothing. I feel like nothing."

You are NOT nothing, he is nothing - like there's no one home inside. There ARE people out there with no conscience, no empathy - like a four year old in an adult body.

You feel like nothing only because he indirectly pushes you to feel guilty, worthless. Believe in what you see. Indirect abuse is still abuse. He does it intentionally to build himself up. He's nothing but a bully. He controls you by devaluing you. You have a choice as to whether or not to believe him or not. You have a choice as to whether or not he affects your self esteem. And you have the alternative to walk away. It REALLY feels good to do that. Anything is better than what you are living with. And you can't explore if you're voluntarily stuck in a bear trap.

He lives for the second with no goals in mind except for what he sees as instant gratification for him. You are giving him WAY too much credit for intelligence. It just ain't there.

A four year old is cute and you want to mother him. A four year old in a man's body - not so cute.
Posted by: mia76

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 03/22/07 02:33 PM

Hello, I am new here and I started doing research on psychopaths when I found a reference to psychopaths in a book when I had problems with someone who I just thought as 'ambitious'. She (a now famous writer in my country) plagiarized my novel and got published. Because she's well known she has access to having her novels published faster while MY NOVEL was still in the waiting list. By the time my novel is read I am accused of copying her. It's so frustrating...
Posted by: denfox

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 03/22/07 06:21 PM

Hi mia76,

Do you have any records of your book, dated materials, showed an earlier draft to another friend, etc? Sounds like you maybe need a lawyer.

Hope to hear more from you.

Posted by: sealistener

General discussion - Part three - 03/27/07 02:13 AM

Hi everyone,
I would like to comment on the possible origin of psychopathy.
I think that we are still born with different make-ups of our brains that had their purpose and meaning in the Stone age.
In a simplified way, all our traits are meant to act for the survival of an individual, or a group.
I think that certain percentage of people are designed without feeling in order that in a fight against enemy, or animals, they would go and be able to kill without hesitation or compassion, in order to defend his group.
Others in a group are born sensitive, compassionate, etc., designed for another task in an altruistic society, similar to ants society.
Psychopats just don't fit in our civilized age. Non-criminal Psychopath just only "kill" a business partner, to act on their way of thinking.
I have a lot of bad experience with psychopats through all my life as everybody, I am sure. At least in a workplace, there seems always be one of them.
I just tried to explain to myself in a simplified way why they are so horribly different from the mainstream in their behaviour.
Posted by: denfox

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 03/27/07 02:02 PM

Hi sealistener,

Maybe it would be helpful if you were to share some of your experiences with psychopaths here.

Dianne once wrote a post with a story about a young man who felt the good and evil struggling within him and asked his grandfather which would win. The grandfather replied, whichever one you feed. Perhaps, Dianne would be willing to repost the full story.

I don't think I buy into your theory of a purpose. A hammar has no purpose until you pick it up and use it. Why should there be a purpose for those who lack a conscience? No explanation is required.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 03/27/07 03:38 PM

Hi Den, I wish I could get the graphics to show up. If anyone wants an original (the graphics are very nice), this came to me from a very dear friend.

Cherokee Wisdom.....

Two Wolves

One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a
battle that goes on inside people. He said, "My son,

The battle is between two 'wolves' inside us all.

One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret,
greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment

Inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego.

The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope,
serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence,
empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."

The grandson thought about it for a minute
and then asked his grandfather,

"Which wolf wins?"

The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."
Posted by: sealistener

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 03/27/07 08:40 PM

Hi Denfox,

I wrote you an answer, but I actually didn't know how to post it. I thought that I was posting it but I couldn't see it. I am new to this site.
I wanted to share my story about my sister.
Psychopats don't have consience planted in their heads so they would be able to do the bad things, but it was planned by nature to do it only to enemies as a defence for the tribe, etc., not in a civilized society. Our brain though still have the same primitive instincts, the scientists say.
Because we don't live in the Stone age anymore they are just fighting with everybody around. Everybody is like an enemy to them, I gather.
But it is true that my sister would protect me against others abusers. I am her possession in her view - for her abuse only. She cannot understand what she really feels.
She always says that she is manipulating everybody because she wants to help them. She cannot see how self-centred her actions are.
She wants to be a "leader", have her obedient "soldiers" tightly around so that she would be strong, but for who?

Had she gotten a better education for herself, she would've loved to be a boss in a workplace. She always liked gardening. She could have been a good boss in that field, I guess. But her nature was to get everything in an easy way, through the efforts of others. She didn't like school much because she couldn't be the best. Now she has an early retirement from an office job and seems like not satisfied with her life.

Sorry to give you such a long, akward explanation.

Posted by: sealistener

Re: General Discussion - Part Three *DELETED* - 03/27/07 09:03 PM

Post deleted by sealistener
Posted by: denfox

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 03/28/07 10:17 AM

Hi Sealistener,

It sounds like you are a natural peacemaker. You probably grew up with some turmoil around you, until that day you were strong enough to overthrow your sister and became the peacemaker in the family. You're probably the one who patches things up and cleans up the emotional messes after your sister comes through.

While it may appear that your sister would protect you, I'll bet that an objective analysis would show that she has caused you more pain in your life than good. Do not feel sad for her, she will not feel sad for you. Just live your life better, be the person you are meant to be and maintain your distance. You owe her less than she owes you, and that is a debt she will never recognize.

So, how did you find this board? What led you here, were you looking because of your experience with your sister?

Posted by: sealistener

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 03/29/07 12:19 AM

Hi denfox,

thank you for your answer. I found this site through the Dr. Hare site, somewhere there.
Since I was young, I liked psychology. I always wanted to understand people as I didn't learn it at home. I grew up with my older, old-fashioned mother who was always sad and grumpy about her fate. I didn't believed in fate.
I could see that I couldn't make peace between my mother and my sister. She was a rebelious child and mom was blaming it her genes, saying the she must had inhereted them from my absent father. When I was fifteen, I told myself that I had to get out and I just had the chance. In the school system, the grade nine was the end of so called basic education and students went to trade schools, or vocational high schools. I intentionally chose a vocational high school that was in a different town. In communism, schooling was for free, and I even was getting a stipend because my mom had low income. I was thriving there for two years, going home for a weekend twice a month.
Then my mom and my sister moved there also, and I was living at home again. I could see what a nerve wreck I became again.
We lived modestly, and I never had my own room. It was a hard time. Still, a young person can endure a lot. I was always able to keep hope for a better future. However, by a coincidence, my sister and me got married at the same time, and were living close to each other again. I was living at East Europe, and it was just enough luck to get an appartment. After that, everybody stayed put for years. At least, all our kids played together. They liked to play in my place, and I enjoyed that.

I was able to kind of laugh off my sister's put downs and so on, until I was 40 years old and my kids were grown.
I guess that around that age one would like to feel more respect. My sister would comment often that I was a cold personality and keeping wall around myself, etc. It is also the expression that she would have on her face, like if they are disgusted with you. That would make me furious.
Over the years, I would stop talking to my sister for a few years, and my family supported me in that. And then, I would think that it was wrong not to talk to a sister. When she would make some move towards talking again, I was glad and thought that it could be different. I never had a problem to forget about the past, but it could be done only if the situation would not repeat itself.
I also think that I wanted eventually to win over her and change her. Now, I live in Canada for several years,and I feel here very happy.
I found people here so positive, friendly, supportive.
I am healing.
My sister visited me this summer. She liked it here. I know her that she would like something so much, or not at all. There is no medium. She most liked my view from my window, and the scenery. But the conversation was very stressful. She wanted to straighten me out and put her sense in my mind.

I was reading in other posts about the bond with an abuser, how hard it is to break. These personalities are so intnse that it might seem like they are strong, and can even sometimes protect us, but they always have to get much more than they would give. They often seem easy going and one can have a false sense that they can have some relaxing time with them. But then one have to pay for it later very dearly.

They would also often repeat what they had done for you, but they forget what they took out of you. They are always right and others are wrong.

Somehow, in my life, I was always lucky enough, and every cloud had a silver lining around it after all.
My sister's nature helped me to realize who I was and who I wanted to be, and who I didn't want to be.

I can see only one solution in a family situation.
It is to keep the difficult relationship very distant. The way there is still some contanct but not the trauma.
It also helps me to understand that the person cannot change. I try to feel sorry and even compassionate for what who they must be. I know a couple of difficult people to talk to, and I can see that they cannot change even in older age.

Thank you for letting me talk,
Posted by: sealistener

Re: General Discussion - Part Three *DELETED* - 03/29/07 01:56 AM

Post deleted by sealistener
Posted by: denfox

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 03/29/07 11:15 AM

Hi Sea Listener,

I think you must be a very strong person. Canada is a beautiful place and it makes people strong. I am very touched by what you write and am glad that you find solace here.

When I first came here, I was going through a terrible ordeal with a psychopath boss. I could feel the weight and the stress leaving me through my fingers as I typed.

When I was very young, 5 or 6, I recall thinking that my family was very strange. I thought to myself, that's okay, they're not asking me to do anything wrong. I will be obedient and go along. When I am older, then I will become my own person. When I was 12, I thought now I am old enough, I will be myself. But, I still did things because of my family. When I was 18, I thought now I am free I will be my own man. When I was 20, I thought I wasn't really free before, but now I will surely be my own man. When I was 30, I realized I was still living my life for them and I swore that I would now live it for myself. When I was 40, I thought finally, I am surely my own man. Now, I think that perhaps should I live to be 100, then I may become my own man.

I don't know what it all means (or, maybe I do), but I know it is important that we all strive to be our true selves. Maybe it is the journey that matters, so we should learn to enjoy the growing. I wish to be free to be me.

It sounds like you may be something of a writer, with long letters and such. I think your story is so touching, bitter and sweet, and beautiful that you should write it down. Maybe you could write it as a letter to your grandchildrens' grandchildren? I think you're a beautiful person and your story should be recorded.

Some people seem to be forever locked in their past. We hope to do better. Perhaps, you may finally be free to be yourself.

Best Wishes,
Posted by: denfox

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 03/29/07 11:50 AM

Hi Sea Listener,

One more thought, don't become a slave to her letters.

I recently realized that I had become a slave to email, IM and my cell phone... then, I said to myself, hey you know what? These things are for my convenience, not somebody else's. If it upsets you, put it down. You can always come back to it later.

Have a good day,
Posted by: sealistener

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 03/29/07 04:18 PM

Hi denfox,

thank you for your good advice.

Over the years I was in Canada, I was thinking of not opening my sister's letters, and maybe ask my older son who is more easy going, to read it instead and then only tell me if anything of importance was there.

Our human problem and gift at the same time is that we forget over the time the seriousness of a particular situation. The abuse is a cycle. After a problem, I would plan these precautions. Then she would send only postcards for a while and I would drop my guard again and be more open with her. Then her letters would get longer and the mean gossiping would sneak in again. She would lecture me on life - that we are old and should not do anything. She would disagree on my happiness with people in Canada by saying they were not sincere because they talked in a positive way.
And more of such a mean nonsense.

And now I have a furious feeling that I am already completely alergic to her. It is like a post traumatic stress disorder when I hear her nonsense again. The older I am getting the more peace I need. Only then I feel healthy and strong.
I like to contribute to society, be kind to people, give comfort to people who need it. I like to be something like a caretaker. I like my house cleaning jobs for seniors.

Even I tried, I cannot be a caretaker of people who don't like peace, who like to stir the pot at whatever cost.
They need lots of stimulation and weird excitement - arguments, that is their nature. And in some ways they seem not willing to work towards some nice stimulation. It is much easier to drink, quarrel. That is a sad kind of stimulation if an introvert is chosen as a partner, I think. They have to find a bird of the same feather, right?
But it is more easy for them to abuse nice people as they don't fight back so readily.
With me, it takes so much to get me angry, but then I am finished with them if it happens - if I learn from the situation enough and don't come back for more again.

Now I am getting more secure in Canada, and it seems that I don't attract the abusers so much as before. And also in Canada, there is so many nice people to be around instead.

It is so easy to live positively here. I am getting better all the time.

Thank you all,
Cheers, sealistener.
Posted by: sealistener

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 03/29/07 10:27 PM

Hi denfox,

I still wanted to thank you for your very nice words.

It must have been a very tough experience for you with your boss. One must be in work every day, how would it be possible to stand it for too long?

My son is hanging on after he got a new boss, after three years in his job. This boss is repeating everything, and dealing with everybody like with kids, etc. Some people already left, and I know how the stress must build up day after day.

I think that you must be doing well in your life, making progress all the years you were talking about. Although life doesn't go in a strait line and sometimes it could feel like we are back in the ditch. It is not true, it is only one more hole in the road.
It is good to read that somebody else considered their own family also as not well functioning.
I don't mind to have a bad relationship with my sister, it is not that unusual when you consider a sibling's rivalry must have played a role also.
However, it is quite bad when people miss opportunities to make it up with parents. Then it could be too late, and the parents are gone. It is always the quality of the relationship, not the quantity, isn't it?
As for me, my mom and my sister lived in a very close approximity. It almost seems like the closer we lived the less we tried to patch up things, like if we would take us for granted. Sometimes the parents die unexpectedly, and there is no time to say nice things. That happened with my mom. We had good moments, but the culture in the society and especially in my family was to talk about the negative stuff, and be quiet if there was something good to talk about, like praising.

As for your nice saying about me as a writer, the fact is that I don't have all the gifts together, needed for a good writer. I am just a mixed up person, that's all. I am thankful that I can write something here and even more to read about views and opinions of others.

I hope that my granchildren will already have regular classes on psychology and sociology, and will understand life in its full, without me telling them about my bad experience in my life.

I wish you also that you will feel your best in this spring and summer, and that such a good feeling will stay with you through not that nice weather also, through out the whole year.

Cheers, Sealistener.
Posted by: denfox

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 03/30/07 11:28 AM

Dear sealistener,

Regarding your son's new boss, I have very little patience left for these kind of managers. Ever since my experience with the psychopath boss, I look at these kind of control freaks and think, could they be a psychopath too?

I won't recount my entire experience here, you can read my past posts in this forum to get a pretty good idea of what happened. I think we judge psychopaths by their behavior, but it is not their behavior alone that makes them a psychopath. Many people are criminals, control freaks, manipulators, liars and cheaters but not necessarily psychopaths. Every once in a while,in my not-so-humble opinion, you can recognize a psychopath when that mask falls and you glimpse that cold, dead look in their eye or that I despise you and everyone else expression on their face. You and I, we feel true empathy, we feel guilt, we feel compassion and love. The psychopath only mimics these. In them, faking emotions is merely another means to manipulate others.

My psychopath boss went way over the line, persecuting those with disabilities, pursuing personal vendettas, destroying people and their careers even after they left, falsifying official documents, brow-beating others into doing harm to co-workers, and only after she is gone does the true extent of the damage become apparent. I am left with many of her hand-picked minions who are exactly the kind of managers that are making your son's job so miserable. I can't afford to keep those kind of managers around here, they will either have to learn or be replaced. It's hard to retrain them, but I am determined.

Talk about control freaks, here is one I just learned about yesterday. A building of over 400 people, and my psychopath former boss had given orders to the building management company to provide no more than two rolls of toilet paper (one for the men's and one for the ladies) per day! I have rectified that arrangement and now all stalls will be stocked with at least two full rolls every day. Being a guy, I never noticed; but, imagine the ladies room. Apparently, they never had any paper in there.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 03/30/07 02:34 PM

Hi sealistener, don't ever worry about space, the contract I have for our site has literally tons of space;)

Writing along with reading can be so good to get things out of our system and help us understand things in a fresh light.

Posted by: denfox

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 03/30/07 11:40 PM

Hi sealistener,

I just want to thank you for your posts... I'm not sure what to say... for some reason, your last post has affected me deeply in a way I cannot express or understand. I just want you to know, after I sort a few things out, I may post again to you.

I don't know yet what I am equipped for. I guess, I'm just like everyone else and trying to sort things out.

I went back and reread my own posts... this experience has profoundly changed me. I thought that I was prepared to handle the aftermath... maybe I am, maybe I'm not. It has thrown me into an emotional tailspin that is going to take me some effort to recover. I am not yet scarred because the wounds are still fresh. I think a trip to the bookstore is long overdue... I need to do more research.

I hope things work out for your son. There are a few things he can do to try and cope; but, after having seen what I have seen... he should try to lay low and consider his options including another job if necessary. People should have the right to a happy work environment.

You are a very special person. I'm thankful that our paths have crossed. I've been very lucky to find a lot of special people here.

Warm wishes,
Posted by: sealistener

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 04/01/07 08:04 PM

Hi Denfox,

I would like to wish you a sure recovery.

I think that I understand very well how you feel right now.

I was feeling exhausted mentally, etc., quite a few times in my life, after being exposed for too long to a bad stuff.

The only thing that would ever and for sure help was to get a long break from the negative stimulators.

It always worked miracles. I started to feel like a new again, doing well, my anxieties were gone, I was feeling healthy and strong again. I was strong enough to do more and join activities of positive people and then thrive even more.

I wish you that you will be able to get your break soon!

It often takes time and needs a bit of luck also.
You will do it!

Good luck, best wishes,
Posted by: denfox

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 04/02/07 03:11 PM

Thanks sealistener,

I never made it out to the bookstore like I hoped, but I did get some much needed rest and some physical activity too. Both are good for the soul.

I feel better today and the problems don't seem so large.

As you say, some time and a bit of luck. I used to consider myself the luckiest person in the world. Perhaps, some of that luck will return soon.

Thanks for the encouragement. I think that when we're feeling down, there's nothing better we can do than reach out to try to help someone else.

I feel a little better today. It helps to understand that dealing with the aftermath is part of a natural process of recovery.

Warmest Regards,
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 04/02/07 03:29 PM

Hi all, this is where I buy my books since I don't live near any decent bookstores (unless you think WalMart is a good location, ha.)

They give you all the best prices from all the locations and let you know the shipping.

I call it armchair book shopping; )
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/27/07 12:02 PM

I was watching an interview with a woman whose young daughter was raped and murdered many years ago. The perp had previously raped two young women, was convicted and eventually paroled.

Her mother talked about the experience in the context of forgiveness and said she hoped that the perp would be able to forgive himself. The piece did mention that he never showed any remorse for the crime. (He probably wouldn't even feel the need to forgive himself for something he felt entitled to do). I thought the contrast was striking.

I can understand that it's her personal (and gracious) way of coping with a heinous tragedy but in a more general sense, its probably that frequent inability to grasp how unredeemable these Ps are that leave society more vulnerable. That reaction is amplified when Ps are relatives and in corporations.

Not a newsflash but wanted to note it down.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/27/07 12:48 PM

Hi freetobeme,

I will send you an email in a bit.

You can click on the Contact Us at the bottom of the page and it bounces to my email at home. Or anyone is welcome to email me directly at:


Posted by: JustAMan

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/07/07 06:15 PM

"Just a note of caution: I found one part of "Bad Influence" HIGHLY disturbing so perhaps you should read a review beforehand.

I find it helpful to watch these just to compare and contrast with "my" Ps


Hi Sylvie,

Psychopaths have perennial facscination for moviemakers because of their outrageous and violent behaviour. Unfortunately the moviemakers are too often concerned with sensationalism, concentrating on the violence, rather a realistic representation of the condition. Take any depictions with a pinch of salt and compare with what youve learned elsewhere!

A couple of my favourite movies which deal with psychopathy in a realistic way are Cape Fear, starring Robert De Niro and Nick Nolte, and the Talented Mr Ripley, starring Matt Damon and Jude Law.

The films depict two very different types of psychopath, De Niro, the typical low life criminal psychopath, and Matt Damon,the intelligent socialized psychopath who worms his way up society (leaving the typical psychopaths trail of chaos in his wake) using charm and identity theft. The talented Mr Ripley also features a major character with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, played by Jude Law. The interaction between a psychopath and a narcissist I found particularly interesting!
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 07/09/07 08:02 PM


Good to see you post. True, most Ps in movies tend to be of the Hannibal Lecter sort. Funnily enough, The Talented Mr. Ripley is the one psychopath movie I haven’t been able to bring myself to see yet. Perhaps I’m a little intimidated because it’s about a socially-adept psychopath and that seems more unsettling. Still, I do want to see it and probably will soon (especially if it shows him interacting with an N).

I’ve seen Cape Fear a few times and yet the kitchen scene still scares me –makes me want to check the closets and sleep with a nighlight on! De Niro has an amazing ability to morph into his characters whether playing a priest or a slimeball ex-con. Bet that put the fear of god (or the devil!) into a few criminal defense attorneys.

I saw “Internal Affairs” recently. When I first watched it in 1990, I just thought it was about a bad cop (Richard Gere) - now I realize his character's definitely a psychopath. What struck me was he did show a glimmer of conscience at times but seemed to be able to set it aside and act out of self interest. That squares with my observations.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 11/09/08 02:51 PM

Cool. Look forward to hearing from you.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 11/09/08 07:22 PM

Very true. It's my understanding that the Psychopath is incapable of any emotion except for extreme paranoia and a deep need for self-gratification. That combined with their tendency to be sexually obsessed pretty much guarantees that in one way or another they will have sexual perversions like a need to rape, or others.

My experience indicates this and so far I've been able to confirm a lot of this experience in the actual science and studies that have been coming out.

These are very dangerous and very sick people.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussi - 11/10/08 07:36 AM

Hi freedobeme, it is great you have read all the research and hopefully the posts here. Psychopaths are like spiders always looking for a web to weave.

I watch some true crime shows and many are about Psychopaths and they are the ones in the show who kills someone. They "seem" so normal. As women sometimes we go too far in trying to please and overlook the beginning stages of the red flags and Psychpaths are very good at holding their disguise depending how socialized they are. Once they spot a victim they are quick to move in, personaly that is what appealing in the beginning is they seem to listen to every word you say, in my opinion that makes them special and appear to be understanding. Anything they say about others should be considered a lie unless confirmed. It is only a matter of time when the mask drops and the evil eyes come forward.

Many times they will talk about how their family did this or that. I think in that case it could be possibly the reason the family is no longer in contact is because they "know" something is wrong and have caught them in so many lies and deceit over $ to cut the ties, not that the family was all bad, very few have really great families but are able to get along as a unit to support each other.

Psychopaths seem to have multiple targets and are looking for someone to drain of their finances. Even if they appear to have money of their own, my best guess it is because they have scammed to get it.

I always think of Scott Peterson who would kill his very pregnant wife, he was on the cell phone with his latest girlfriend who had no idea he was even married, and he did that on the night the community was holding a vigil hoping for her return. He was obviously never socialized for such an experience but I view his parents had highly socialized him.

It is not the outward appearance a person should look for but the inside.

They all scam their victim out of $ and most seem to move very quickly to get the victim in their web. Multiple partners, cruising the internet "looking for love" and porn.

They will never be cured it isn't possible.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 11/15/08 08:21 AM

Thanks for the email Dianne.

Okay as per your request here's the background and context and my next post will give the story of my first actual encounter.

This is a story that started over 35 years ago and continues to this date.

I apologize to all for the very long posts.

I'm going to be providing general information about psychopaths with each post along with references which I hope will help others being targeted.

These people are dangerous and we victims need a voice. I'm trying to make mine heard publicly for the first time.

If anyone is reading this, please feel free to ask questions and ask for clarifications and explanations.

I'm tired of being silent and afraid and will answer any questions anyone has.

“The psychopath is defined by a psychological gratification in criminal, sexual, or aggressive impulses and the inability to learn from past mistakes. Individuals with this disorder gain satisfaction through their antisocial behavior and also lack a conscience.

Psychopathy is frequently co-morbid with other psychological disorders (particularly narcissistic personality disorder). The psychopath differs slightly from the Psychopath, and may differ even more so from an individual with an antisocial personality disorder diagnosis. Nevertheless, the three terms are frequently used interchangeably. While nearly all psychopaths have antisocial personality disorder, only some individuals with antisocial personality disorder are psychopaths. Many psychologists believe that psychopathy falls on a spectrum of pathological narcissism, ranging from narcissistic personality disorder on the low end, malignant narcissism in the middle, and psychopathy on the high end.”

“Hare describes people he calls psychopaths as "intraspecies predators[29][30] who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, sex and violence[31][32][33] to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and empathy, they take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without guilt or remorse".[20] "What is missing, in other words, are the very qualities that allow a human being to live in social harmony."[34]”

The above describes CR and his behavior to a tee, in my opinion and based on my direct experience as an early target and one who has been his victim since 1973.

There is a lot more to the story than I am indicating below but in the interests of brevity and readability I haven’t included things that I believe are irrelevant to the current situation.

I would also like to state unequivocally that despite CRs employment in the RCMP and CSIS that I have no issue whatsoever with either organization. They perform a necessary and difficult task in a difficult world. My comments regarding CR should not be considered a criticism of either organization.

I have no desire to disparage those many men and women who sacrifice their lives to protect us.

However, I do hope that both organizations might learn from my experience and put controls and hiring practices in place to ensure that no more CRs are hired who can be put in a position to grossly abuse and misuse their power in the way that CR has done.

Now my story.

My background.
I grew up in an upper middle class area in Canada. My father was a Mechanical Engineer and my mother was a stay at home housewife attending University. She was 26 years younger than my father and was preparing to join the workforce on his retirement. He passed away when he was 63 and my mother joined the workforce at that time.

My Uncle who was approximately 15 years older than me was a Left wing organizer in Canada and leader of various extreme Left wing organizations.

I was loosely involved with the Left, his organizations, from the time I was 18 until I was 21.

To be perfectly clear, I never once engaged in any illegal or terrorist activity under the auspices of the Left and if I had been asked to at that time I would have refused. On a personal level, I have always been against the use of violence and terrorism in the avocation of any cause.

You’ll understand why I’m making this statement as the story evolves.

My uncle was a leader of one of the many Left wing organizations in Canada at that time. He passed away in 1997. I joined his organization in 1971 but was never “granted” official membership. I left this organization in 1974 but married a member and so maintained some peripheral involvement until I left my husband, with my two children, in 1983 due to physical abuse.

CRs background.
CR grew up in Montreal. His family is very wealthy and is co-owners of a well known Canadian chain of retail stores. He was a VP of this company.

He appears to have joined the RCMP Red Squad, later incorporated into CSIS (1984) sometime before 1972.

He was at that time, and continues to be a member of Kahane Chai (also known as Jewish Defense League in North America), an extremist organization which believes in the restoration of biblical Israel.

This organization is so extremist that Israel, quite sensibly, has banned them as a terrorist organization. They were responsible for the assassination of Yitzak Rabin, a moderate Jew, and Prime Minister of Israel who was negotiating a Peace Pact with the Palestinians in the 1990s because they didn’t like the terms of the Pact. They have also been responsible for terrorist acts in the US and are listed on the Terrorist Watch lists of the EU, Canada, and the US.

So please don't insult me by calling me anti-semitic simply because I don't agree with Kahane Chai. Most Jews don't agree with or like Kahane Chai either.

I have Jewish relatives, detest the Holocaust, and believe that Hitler, himself, may have been a psychopath.

Kahane Chai is not included on the UK watch list which is significant when one evaluates CRs current activities. Something I’ll explain later since I don’t want to sidetrack the story.

I believe that I came to CRs attention in 1972 and that he became obsessed with me on a personal level at that time. His obsession was both sadistic and sexual.

Based on CRs actions, I do not believe that anything he’s done has ever had anything to do with my past politics or his responsibilities as a member of the RCMP Red Squad.

I do believe that CR joined the RCMP Red Squad because of the power it gave him, since he certainly didn’t need the money.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 11/15/08 08:41 AM

Dianne said: "They will never be cured it isn't possible."

Sadly Dianne I think you're probably right here. I've heard that they just become better psychopaths.

But there must be some way of protecting us from them.

CR is wealthy, a multi-millionaire, and because of his past intelligence connections had unlimited resources.

He has ruined my life, financially, socially, and in every way possible.

It's become impossible for me to live a normal life because of his constant sadistic and manipulative interventions.

And he's getting worse all of the time.

What can be done under the circumstances?

How do I, and others, protect ourselves from such insanity? I'm not his only target.

I can't tell you how frustrated I am right now.

Thank goodness you're here so that I can come and vent!

I went public on my blog and he's backed off a little bit, but I'm afraid that was just shock because it was unexpected.

Once he gets his act together I'm sure he'll come up with a way to use that against me too.

It was, however, the only option left to me.

I was trying to work things out with my older brother to help me, and while we are arguing I think I was getting through to him for the first time.

He died two weeks later from an unexpected and massive heartattack. Emergency vehicles were there within minutes but he couldn't be saved.

He was in very good health with no heart or other health problems.

Now I've been offered a job in the Caribbean and indications are that CR is behind that job offer.

I'm working now for a local company. There are indications that he might be an investor.

How do I get this man out of my life????

In addition to all of this. My older brothers death has resulted in my younger brother taking over my mothers finances (and ultimately my and my sisters and his inheritance).

My younger brother is a psychopath as well. He's conned my younger sister who will do whatever he says no matter how much it hurts her.

My older brother would have ensured my interests were protected. My younger brother is going to ensure they're not.

So, in addition to the financial ruin caused by CR, I don't even have my inheritance to look forward to as a cushion when I retire anymore.

I know you don't have the answers and can just be the great support you were to me privately a year or so ago.
Posted by: Ccce

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/08/12 07:53 AM

Hi all. So glad I found this site! Thanks to you Diane our moderator and to all who add so much to the conversations!

Hi Cynthia, I started a new thread you will find here: My Neighbor is a Psychopath

I hope you don't mind, I moved the posts there because over the years this subject has come up and since we have so many people who can only read I think it is an important subject.


Posted by: hollym10

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/17/12 05:30 PM

I'm new to this forum. I had a short term 'relationship'/thing with a guy that i ended in January and it has left me in pieces. I had literally just ended a relationship with a wonderful man who i'd been with for 9 years, and had been due to marry in August, last October. I'm a student and this guy, an international student who was studying one of the same modules as me, took no time at all in offering himself as a 'friend to talk to'. I knew he was insincere from the start and all my friends found him arrogant and predatory but i felt sorry for him and overode any sense of clarity of judgement with him. It was as if i was hypnotised. He engulfed me. From the get go it was all about sex. Even the first time was bizarre. His voice changed and he would say really weird things that just seemed quite 'off'. I asked him what colour his eyes were and he said 'the colour af the abyss' and i asked him what he enjoyed and he said 'Everything'. At first this seemed exciting. Something about his lack of caring what others thought about him and his total lack of shame and boundaries was very attractive and i found it initially freeing. I ignored his inability to give me eye contact during sex or his ability to stop and take a phone call from his 'mother' during the activity as easily as if he was just watching tv. He would push me to do things i didn't want to do and then essentially make me feel as though i was frigid because i didn't want to do them. All done in a patronising voice. At first he seemed to take time to make me feel good too but very quickly it was all about him. He would use distraction and then just do the things i asked him not to anyway, then on seeing the horror on my face he would smile, obviously getting a kick out of it. When i said i didn't want that done to me he would put on that patronising voice and say 'but sweetness you looked like you seemed to be enjoying it'. Having just come out of a relationship i had told him that i didn't see us as any more than a short lived fling. At first he was ok with this but literally within days he was telling me that he wanted to make me pregnant and would i go back to Romania with him when he finished Uni. Within a couple of weeks my head was well and truly not my own anymore. He was very controlling, very lazy, would get me to wait around for him, travel to his flat (he would never come to mine), would tell me what to wear and how to do my make up. He would try and touch me inappropriately in public and berrate me for my caring what other people thought when i told him that his behaviour was not respectful to those around us. He would ask me if i found any of my female friends attractive so he could have a threesome, he told me that two of my friends especially turned him on but he hated the girl who spoke up to him with clear dislike of him as he hated all people who didn't buy his [censored]. Always my guts told me that i should get out but always my head said 'you're being paranoid, give him the benefit of the doubt'. I asked him if he was a player and he said with a smirk 'what do you think. Does my behaviour not show you that i am otherwise? You are entitled to think what you want. I'm sorry but i can do nothing to prevent your paranoia'. This was over one of our many skype conversations he insisted on that would be late at night and on this occasion he was informing me that at 11pm he was off to see some 'Thai chicks' to play cards. I really don't think that was part of that nights agenda for him.
He lived with other friends from Romania and they would often have conversations with him in Romanian so i couldn't understand (even though they all spoke perfect english).
I sunk into further and further depression, all my friends said i should leave and that i needed to look after myself. I knew they were right but i couldn't listen to the part of me that saw sense any more.
During the time i spent with him he never had a job, hardly did any college work and yet seemed to sweet talk tutors and his family into getting his way. Thats what he did with me.
I ended it first when he went back to Romania for Christmas. I emailed him. He immediately skyped me. I stuck with the decision but it was like he needed to be looking into my eyes to control me and i could feel the pull. He didn't seem upset but he was using every attempt to change my mind, all of a sudden telling my how much he 'loved' me, how my eyes were just 'something else' and how 'bright' i am (although he pointed out that he didn't mean in the intelligent way).
I stuck to my decision but then he kept emailing and when he came back i agreed to meet him for coffee. I tried to keep my personal space but he kept stroking my hair, calling me 'sweetness' and eventually resorting to 'but i love you'. He had this cheshire cat, sly grin and would pull a really insincere 'cute' face when i insisted i wanted to be nothing more than friends. Within days i caved in and told him i was sorry and that i still wanted to see him. I saw the look of shock on his flatmates faces when i walked back into his flat. One of them had had conversations with me before asking me why i was seeing his friend, what i was getting from the 'relationship'.
This time the sex was totally selfish on his part. He no longer attempted to please me in any way. His 'sweetness' act had gotten extreme though, especially in public and i noticed that he hated me hanging out and chatting to his flatmates. I knew something was really wrong. I had once asked if he had a girlfriend in romania and he had said 'yes, and one in china and one in Russia and one in Canada etc.' then laughed and said 'what do you think, you don't really think i have another girlfriend do you?' I knew at the time that the 'yes' had been the truth and that he had then covered his tracks. I had always been honest, too honest with him, and even though my insides screamed that he was fake, that it was all lies, i ignored it all the way. He often asked me what i would do if another 'chick' (as he called girls) was to try hitting on him, he would tell me of girls that did, he would love to make me jealous.
One night i had come round to his and i knew something was really wrong, he looked as though he was high on adrenaline and i sensed he had just had sex with another girl. By this time i'd started to see past his [censored] but for some reason was still unable to break free. On that night, after he had gone upstairs (he asked me to follow but i stayed in the kitchen to have a cigarrette) his housemate told me all the truths i had suspected. That he had at least one other girlfriend, that he didn't really care about me and that the things he said behind my back were apalling. His flatmate said he couldn't bare to watch it any more, that i needed to see him for what he was, that i deserved better, that i should go and spend some time being single and learning to be ok with myself, that i had made the right decision to leave the guy at christmas and definitely the wrong one to come back. That all of the flatmates were sick of this guy and that i looked so unhappy and that they all just found it unbearable to watch. I left without saying goodbye. The guy phoned in the morning acting all surprised 'Where are you? I'm confused. I woke up and my girlfriend is gone' i told him i wasn't his girlfriend and that i didn't want any contact with him of any kind, that he could have been honest and saved us both the hassle. He denied everything, he didn't sound at all upset. He just had mock confusion and wanted to find out what his housemate had said. The only emotion i could tell was anger at his housemate. He continued to text me over the next few days. At first i didn't respond. As they continued i would reply leave me alone. I eventually had to reply that i found him repulsive and that he should go **** himself. Then i got a sorry and the texts ended. Unfortunately i've had to bump into him a couple of times where he has said hello as if nothing bad ever happened between us and i just ignore him.
However i've now lost a lot of trust in people, i'm on a waiting list for therapy, i have lost a lot of self esteem, i have horrific mental images pop into my mind of his awful smirking face, i feel disgusted, ashamed and embarrased at my behaviour of staying with him as long as a did and putting up with his abuse and he is still putting on the charm and making people feel sorry for him, completely without guilt or consequences. I still have nightmares. I want to wash my body and mind of the whole experience.
Posted by: worried female

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/26/12 03:43 PM

hi there i am new here i just found this forum last night, i am very worried as i got involved with a man who is a very dangerous psychopath he has a very young child the man has fooled police and social services, i need advice please urgently thank you
Posted by: starry

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/26/12 04:30 PM

Hi worried female

Have you tried talking things over with a domestic abuse helpline, if you have access to one? They're really very good, and will absolutely believe you. They won't tell you what to do, but will give you lots of support in working out what you want to do, and in following it through.

I understand how clever these people are, how manipulative and how convincing they can be. I also understand how it feels to know about the children they have in access to.

You're welcome to share more of your story, but if you feel to afraid to, or don't want it, it's OK.
Posted by: worried female

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/27/12 07:04 PM

thank you so much starry for understanding what i am going through , i just feel so ashamed that unknowing i had such a dangerous man in my life and also my own child life, i have not been able to sleep and just feel so sick in my stomach about all this, i feel violated to the core ,and what makes it worse is knowing that this man has no regrets of the way he has treated others all his life he has caused so much harm to so many people, of ripping money from people, to having sex with thousands of people,to battering so many women and also fathering 9 children that he only get to look after one child
Posted by: worried female

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/27/12 11:46 PM

hi starry just to let you know i contacted the domestic abuse helpline and they where terrible to me said it was not my problem and said they where surprised that social services hadnt did anything i was trying to explain that the man is a psychopath and that he even fools even professional people the woman on the domestic abuse helpline said that they are going to terminate the call and it had nothing to do with me regarding the safety of these other women or child,
Posted by: starry

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/28/12 12:31 AM

I'm sorry you had a hard time calling the helpline.

In a sense, his actions, what he chooses to do, are not your responsibility. I remember my counsellor telling me this during a session, and it did really shock me when she said it.

But I can see what she was trying to get at now. It was like my own identity had become so merged with his, so subsumed into his, that I had also taken on the guilt and responsibility for everything had had done to other women (and children) and was continuing to do. I somehow felt it was up to me to try and stop him. And knowing there were other people in danger was a real torment for me, and it took over my entire life. It's all I thought about for quite a long time.

I understand now that the only person I can be responsible for is myself. But it's taken a lot of work over a number of years to be able to have and feel this separation.

Perhaps this is what the woman on the helpline was getting at?

I also remember feeling very judged by some of my counsellors, and feeling that they really didn't get it, when now I think that was to do with putting in place some very basic boundaries (related to the paragraph above, about separation). It was almost like I was clawing at everything and everyone in my desperation to try and convince them by who he was and what he was capable of doing.

Now, I don't use the psychopath word if I'm talking about it, unless I am more than 100% sure that the other person will understand what that word really means. I usually wait for them to say the word to me, and have been pleasantly suprised at the people that have used that word to describe him. I usually say that he's extremely manipulative and can be very charming when he wants to (your evidence for that is that he spent a year essentially grooming you to get your trust, before seeing his chance and doing what he did to you).

I don't know if any of that makes any sense, or helps you much?
Posted by: worried female

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/28/12 03:38 PM

starry you made me cry there, as this is what im going through,i cant sleep as my mind is racing and i do blame myself feeling responsible if anything more happens to these women, because his son phoned me on friday night crying for help from me and in the back ground i could hear him shouting and screaming and things getting thrown in his house and the woman screaming in the background that he had been hitting her and that he held her against her will in his house, and finding out from his sister that the other woman he had beaten up so many times a month ago her body and face looks like a car crash victim ,these women he did this to where women he had cheated on me with

i feel as if i have let his wee boy down and thats why i had to phone yesterday the domestic abuse helpline as i didnt know what else to do ,and they just said it was not my problem it was up to these women to get out of the relationship and didnt believe that a man like him could fool profs like police and social services,which he has done ,as he is 50 years old and he has been able to do this his whole life without getting caught by profs they think he is a lovely man ,how wrong they are,

i spoke to his sibbling today about what has just happened and all his family have nothing to do with him for over 35 years as they are very aware of what he is like,his sibbling told me today that he has strangled women,he has punched and kicked a woman carrying his child, and that in the space of less than a year he had sex with a thousand women,his sibbling said that he preys on women ,women that are disabled,women that have drugs or drink problems, or women that have had domestic abuse in the past,he would come out with statements saying to me " he doesnt believe in the word sorry or the word thank you" he doesnt do sorry or thankyou, he did not like it when i began to see through his lies ,like for example he would say he was great at making anything creative like wood work ect,

so when i began to question him and say hunni why dont you make table ect he would go of in black rages with me, i found out from his sibbling today he has never been creative at all it was all lies, also i found out he had also had sex with his younger sibbling and she has serious mental health problems , i feel sick inside and so messed up inside that i had such a dangerous man in my life and that he had done all this abuse and a trail of destruction and he has NO REMORSE he still blames everyone and says he is the victim to everything ,he even said to the police that he was the victim of domestic abuse regarding the women that they attacked him and he is a weak man and that he was trying to defend himself and said to the police that the woman had pulled out what he thought was a knife and was trying to stab him so he defend himself, he even posted all over a social site over the internet pictures he took of himself of tiny marks and he made out to everyone on this social site that he was attacked by the women and he had to defend himself , but do you know something starry my gut is telling me he had made the marks on himself to try and get away with these terrible crimes to women
Posted by: starry

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/28/12 05:11 PM

Your story is so similar to mine, it's quite eerie. I could have written a lot of what you have written yourself.

What this man has done to other women, and what he is choosing to do in this present moment are not your responsibility. His actions are a result of the choices he is making. He knows what he is doing and he is consciously making those choices every time.

You don't deserve to carry the responsibility for those choices, because you are not the one who is responsible far making those choices. You also don't deserve to carry the guilt for those choices either, because none of the guilt is yours, all of the guilt is his. And just because he feels none (he feels no remorse) it doesn't mean that you should feel his guilt for him.

In trying to foist the responsibility and guilt onto you, he is tying you to him, shackling you to him, catching you in his web.

The only person you bear a responsibility towards is yourself. You are the only one who is responsible for your physical and psychological wellbeing.

Does it make sense what I'm trying to get at? I'm not trying to be hard nosed and callous about it. I had a pretty awful breakdown in piecing everything together, understanding what he had done to other people (and I do, truly, believe there were women who didn't make it) and trying to protect a couple of people from him. In the end, and with a lot of help, I realised that I couldn't help them, I understood the only person I could be responsible to was myself.
Posted by: worried female

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/28/12 09:14 PM

starry the man that i was involved with also was a high priest in wicca (occult ) because he has still a lot of my own clothes ect i feel inside me that he had put a spell over me when it was all happing it was a strange hold he had over me, i cant even put it in to words to be honest with you , he would phone me up in the middle of the night about 3am in morning to say he couldnt cope as he had no money to pay for his bills and that he couldnt keep his son & at times when i couldnt send money straight away he and telling me to phone the emergency hosp number to tell them he had taken a overdose to kill himself i would ended up paniking and he would then switch his phone of to me and the emergency hosp nurses then they sent out ambulance and then me getting call from hosp a few hours later to say he had signed himself out of hosp, other times he would say to me oh it is okay for me that i have more money than him and his friends put together and making me feel guilty, he would also withdraw any form of effection to me which would leave me feeling confused my family said that they found him jakle & hyde towards me
Posted by: starry

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/29/12 12:38 AM

My dad had been in a cult. Knowing now what I now about mind control, I understand that he used a lot of the techniques he had learned in the cult on me (and his other victims).

Messing with someone's sleep cycle is a really effective way to break someone. My dad used to call me at 3.00am as well, but he would ramble on about rubbish for an hour.

It might help you to read up about mind control and psychological torture. For me, a lot of stuff started to make sense when I started finding out about mind control techniques. Some of the stuff he did was very blatent, some of it was very subtle.
Posted by: Smokey

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 05/30/12 07:30 PM

My Psychopath would phone at 3am as he would be drunk and bored by himself at that time, and he knew I would be off by guard and muzzy-minded, having been asleep.
Posted by: GF of ppaths Father

Re: General Discussion - Part Three - 06/04/12 11:28 AM

This is an interesting article in a Canadian newspaper. What is evil?