General Discussion - Part 1

Posted by: Dianne E.

General Discussion - Part 1 - 03/21/05 10:31 AM

Please post any questions and/or comments for general discussion. If you have resource material about Fledgling Psychopaths, please share with us here.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 03/29/05 03:38 AM

I just want to share something in relation to a psychopath with advanced age (age 82).He was my father....
He was diagnosed as such even before the Hare Psychopathy Checklist was developed, by Swiss psychiatrists.
He is the 'non-criminal' psychopath however his behaviors are as damaging....(a retired professor of architecture)
So far he 'got away'...
On April 5th there will be a hearing (28 people in his apartment have provided affidavits)where the judge will decide what action to take. I hope he will be sent to a geriatric unit in a mental hospital.for the remainder of his time ... That day I will embrace life as I have never done before.
The reason for this very late justice day?
A retired police officer who heard about him took it upon himself to investigate and interviewed tenants in his building. He made the complaints official, had them notarized.
We need a social mechanism that facilitates this kind of collateral input from society about a certain member of the society. We need to expose them. The mental cruelties these people can inflict on innocent people are as dangerous as physical injuries.

Thank you.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 03/29/05 09:22 AM

Hi Billur, welcome to the forum. I am sorry to hear that you have such a situation in your family. It must be truly devastating.

If you are comfortable explaining some of the things or actions taken by your father?

Best regards,

Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - 04/01/05 02:20 AM

Hello again

I have been quite busy of late since I decided to put myself through higher education at last after wasting my time on two lousy marriages (36 years in total) I start as an undergraduate in October and am doing a short pre degree course at the moment and start a counselling course next week.It turned out that I still have PTSD so I have seen a counsellor and have made a good start in the therapy which is simply to talk talk talk it out. I am meeting some lovely people and getting on good really (14 months since leaving)

But things with my two sons is not good at all. I have tried so hard with them to be patient despite gross disrespect. And now with the counselling, things are coming out that I have buried regarding their behaviour towards me in the months before I left when the psychological abuse escalated and they joined forces with their father in making me the scapegoat. I see now that I could have got him out of the house. He had ended the marriage. I could have got help, but I left instead and made myself homeless because I knew fine well that I would have had a bad time with the sons as they wanted to live with their father, and one of them had even said when all the rowing was going on that I should be the one to leave. Now p is attempting to stop me going over to the house to see the boys (they will not come to me) He starts to act as though I have started an arguement if I am there (I asked him to go out and let me have some time with my sons but he said I was being controlling) and the boys defend him.

I am starting to feel angry with my sons. It is good I think to feel angry when one is disrespected. I know that p is the cause of it but I have been tolerating it from them and still giving them love and support but i feel all washed up now and it will stop me achieving in my studies if I struggle on with them like this. Some of my friends said I should have walked away from the whole situation. They may be right. Maybe I have stopped them seeing p for what he is by continuing to try to improve the relationship with them by putting myself through hoops. Maybe I normalised things by staying in touch and going back to the house. I am so confused now.

You just cannot win with a p can you.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 04/02/05 07:01 PM

Mati, it is great to hear your update. A big congratulations for going back to school

I am sorry to hear about your sons being still in the clutches of your X. I sure hope with time they will see things more clearly. It is really good that you are seeing a good therapist. I feel very sorry for your entire situation, it can't be easy. It is easy for people to tell you to walk away but that is only something that you can resolve for your own best interests, imo. I think you should be very proud of yourself for all the progress you have made, it doesn't sound like it has been easy.

I hope you can find the energy to focus on yourself and your studies. It must be very exhausting to have this on your mind and have to worry so much.

You have made some huge steps and I really admire your courage and strength.

All my best,

Posted by: kwindish

Re: General Discussion - 04/04/05 09:57 AM

Here's a saying I like: "It is much riskier to explain yesterday than it is to make tomorrow." I have been in recovery for years now and I have found that time passing helps a lot if you are able to just let go of the particulars that have happened. Try not to blame yourself for the behaviors of others and stay the course you set for yourself. Hope that helps atleast a little. Keep moving forward.

Ken ...
Posted by: recovery

Re: General Discussion - 04/04/05 10:22 AM

Hi Mati,

Well done - keep up the good work and enjoy the socialising of the undergraduate. I was classed as a "mature" student when I did my degree - but it did not stop me having a lot of fun and meeting so many great people.

AS the others have said, don't beat yourself up about your sons - you are doing all youcan, and you will have to leave it to them to see the light. If they don't then I would still ask the question - do they have any P tendencies which makes them unwilling to see the reality of your family?

I have just come back from a week with my family which was great, but in certain places I feel so uncomfortable in case I bump into my ex - its a horrible feeling, so I don't know how you cope with still having to see your P.

Good luck and let us know how the studies go.

Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - 04/04/05 01:42 PM

Hi Di Ken and recovery

Thank you all for the support. It really helps. Yes I have come a long way in 14 months, and entering higher education is proving to be the best thing I ever did for myself, in fact one of the few things I have ever done just for me. I am actually studying with a home course but I will meet up with others doing the same locally and for tutorials. It is just great for me as I have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and the level of support from the university is good. I will be doing it part time so it will take me 6 plus years and I will be over 60 when I graduate but who cares, better late than never, and I have plans on moving to somewhere warm when I finish so that my health will be better.

That really struck home in not worrying about the particulars and not feeling responisible for others behaviour. Thanks for your words Ken. I can see that it can only get loads better as after a year it is so much better now. The course I am doing has made me face the psychological damage done to me in the six months before I left, and which I have not been addressing, having to concentrate so much on the praticalities of setting up home on my own, with no job and little money and has helped me see that I have no need to feel guilty about leaving my sons with their father (they are adult) because they made the choice and I have thought about the posibility whether one or both are actually p or have some other personality disorder if they will not see the reality of the situation and keep on denying the terrible psychological abuse I was subject to from them all. It has been a long hard struggle to get back into reality and stop what I have been programmed for by p, that is to blame myself. The most important thing I have learnt to do is to take care of myself and not beat myself up like I did in the past.

I know that I am past a critical stage, where there was a danger that p could have got me back and I knew that his treatment of me would be much more controlling and vindictive but I have survived this and said no and have no/little contact now. There is just the divorce to go through and the house to sell if I ever get it sold due to the emotional blackmail for me to forego my share.

I am also in a small group which was set up for the divorced and separated but the three women who turned up all were very interested in what I had to say about psycopathy, and they have recognised at least traits of this in their ex's and are educating themselves by borrowing my copy of Hare's book. It is amazing as I searched for some support further than the usual domestic violence sources and thought there was nothing but it is happening now. We are all helping and supporting each other. Added to the counselling I am getting now, which is for the PTSD, I really feel supported.

The main decision I have to make now is regarding how much time and energy I can spare on my sons as I still have to be very careful what I say, but I have stepped back and am letting things take their course more now that I have stopped feeling so guilty and am holding them more responsible and expecting more respect from them. I wonder whether being used to their fathers manipulation to avoid all responsibility prevented me from making the boys accept theirs especially when their father did not do it. It is a double whammy that time exposes more and more the damage p has done. Catching up with the past seems never ending when it keeps unfolding. It has been my studies that have helped me to distance my self somewhat. Not working probably gave me too much time to think of the past. Well thanks again everyone. I will keep you posted of my progress.

Posted by: SaddisticChaos

Re: General Discussion - 06/26/05 06:11 PM

What exactly makes a psychopath?
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 06/26/05 06:39 PM

Hi, welcome to the forum. I think it is a nature vs. nurture issue. Personally I weigh in on the nature side of the issue.

You will find lots of information here:


I hope this helps answer your question. Let me know if this gives you the answer you are seeking.

Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - 09/26/05 09:02 AM

Hello again

Update on my situation....

I actually attempted too much with the studying and caused a relapse of ME, but I have rested and feel energy starting to return, although I am still unable to join in with discussion forums like I did in the past. One year and 8 months after leaving and my mind has not recovered yet. Things with my sons are somewhat better in that they treat me with more respect now. Some of this is related to their need to have someone whom they can borrow money from if they get into a fix as their father has ruined his credit rating, ( I have said no to the requests for money and have told them to learn how to manage their money)but it is more than this and they know that if they want some support then I am there for them and they get common sense out of me and some of it is usual adolescent selfishness though I do see some definate narcissistic traits in one of them. They still see their father as sick rather than evil, but I accept that there is nothing I can do apart from demonstrate a psychologically normal parent to them as much as I can by getting on with my life as best I can.

My focus has been centred on this family, but has increasingly been directed towards my daughter from my first marriage (34 years old) who is supposed to be bi-polar and borderline, but as I have increasingly observed her behaviour and remembered her extremely anti-social activities in her childhood, I am wondering whether she is in fact, much more a psychopath than my ex (he displayed very strong p traits through the breakup of our marriage and has certainly some of the mind functioning mentioned by Hare.)

I am actually becoming much more afraid of her since receiving death threats when she was last in a 'psychotic' episode due to her stopping anti-psychotics.

She is manipulative and controlling and parasitic, leaving behind her a string of broken relationships, all of whom are very angry at the end (she ends them showing that she is not borderline I think) I am thinking that her psychosis is drug induced as she has taken just about everything there is since she was 13.

On reading some from this section of the forum, I can certainly see clearly and beyond doubt that she is like others mentioned here, much more so than my ex whom I had recurring doubts about as to whether he really was fully fledged p as some may remember. I have no doubts about my daughter sadly enough.

I have written a list of the things I have observed since her early childhood, when she was extremely demanding of attention, manipulative and charming, and also very dirty in her habits, wetting her pants till very late (up till she left home at 15) and wetting the bad, also not washing and drenching herself in perfume instead. This has been interesting for me to read about.

The worst thing she has done that I am aware of, apart from all of the law breaking, is to let her husband think that her son is his and he is bringing the boy up away from this area. My daughter says the boy is not his. She has no conscience at all about this and was quite happy to burden me with the information. I doubt whether she cares if I tell him or not. I have not told him and still do not know whether I should have. The boy is 15 now and I hace lost contact with him.

I am considering talking to her psychiatrist and telling her these things that she will not know. I am concerned that my daughter is about to start to try to get custody of her 13 year old daughter at weekends (the girl is with her grand father and being with her mother will be harmful to her)

Since thinking along these lines, I have been detatching from her slowly, playing dead as it were when she has been trying to ghet some action by telling me bad things relatives have beed saying supposedly. I started to wonder when my daughter began to be really 'loving' to me after I left her step father and she was telling me all sorts of tales about him. I thoght that at last we were going to get close but soon there was chaos and trouble from the little crowd that she has gathered around her. I blamed them at first thinking they were jealous but I soon came to see how much she manipulates them and acts the victim always.

I will continue to avoid contact with her. She us really stepping up the 'love bombing' as she semms to know that I am wiseing up. I do wonder how safe I will be if she finds out I have been talking to the psyc. and saying that I think she should not have her daughter with her. She has been violent with quite a few people that I know about, serving a prison sentence for one. My daughter has been sabotaging the relationship between my grand-daughter and me. The girl is anti-social herself and in the process of being expelled from her school. I have tried very hard to help her but I feel she has had her mind poisoned against me and perhaps is personality disordered herself.

My ex and sons have nothing to do with my daughter and I have shown one son the death threats via text messages (I have also shown them to the police and her community nurse but they think that it was just due to her being off her meds) She has decided to stop taking them again and her medics will not stop her. They do nothing unless there is a crisis.

I am scared now that I know how dangerous she is and cannot believe that I was so blind not to see this before now especially as I have spent the last two years breaking free from another abusive person.

One good thing has come out of therapy. I have realised that my feelings towards her which were 'killed' slowly, were not because of a lack in me. I have been greatly ashamed of this and of the way she has treat me, shame being something I grew up with due to sexual abuse in my childhood. It is something I am really breaking free from now and it shows in the way I can nopw seek help for myself. I still feel shocked by what I am seeing though, and scared. It is much worse to have a child like this rather than a partner as you have them for life.

Thanks for listening
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 09/27/05 06:29 PM

Hello Mati, I apologize for taking so long to acknowledge your post. I find it very encouraging that you are continuing to take care of yourself. How is school going?

I agree, I find the hygiene issue to be very interesting. I hope more people will weigh in on the issue. I wonder if it isolated or a general practice.

Do you think it is possible that your daughter is on some heavy drugs like meth? I worry about your safety and hope you are keeping good records. Does she live very close to you. If she is under care for mental health and possible drug issues hopefully those will be the things that will keep her from getting custody.

It must be very difficult as a parent to detach but always remember there is nothing you could have done which would have changed the situation.

I am really glad your sons are starting to come around. I hope as time goes on they will really be there for you.

You have really come a long hard way and the distance must seem forever but it sounds like you are taking the right steps and that is all you can really do.

All my best,

Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - 09/28/05 01:36 AM

Hi Di

Thanks for your response and encouragement. I have not been able to start my course due to my health, but I am picking up now and may be able to start next year.

My daughter has been on just about everything in the past and says she is clean now but I do not believe her as she never seems to have any money.

She lives a distance away from me and I am in a first floor flat so I do not feel in immediate danger, and I have kept the text messages she has sent me. I will also keep a record of anything else.

If she denies drug use then the mental health team will consider her daughter going there at weekends unless I see them and say that I think she is still using. I have been detaching and making no comments about the things she has said even regarding her latest attempt to upset me by saying that this year she wants to spend Christmas alone with her daughter (not with me there at her fathers like last year) I am not responding to anything and she is becoming increasingly belligerent towards me. I am just saying I am ill and unable to visit her or answer the phone same days. At first she stepped up the charm but now she is getting angry with my lack of emotional response to her taunts.

I can hardly believe that I have not seen the problem and have always made excuses for her and given her third and fourth chances. She is weaving the web for her daughter now that she is nearly 14 and growing beyond needing care, which has always been planted on someone else. Now the girl might be some use to her so she is charming her and trying to break our bond.

Thanks agion
Posted by: Posey

Re: General Discussion - 10/08/05 09:53 PM

Posted by: Posey

Re: General Discussion - 10/09/05 04:14 PM

Hi Mati: I read your post last night, and I connected with your feelings and situation.

I too have two children, and my ex is a P albeit noncriminal inasmuch as the legal system - but his behavior is very violent, manipulative, and devious and yet he has convinced our two children that it is me who makes him like that, and that if they as much as speak to me or interact with me that i could find something out and land him in jail for it. Now, they are emulating into a him, and are also failing life. They were normal, but live under a P who wishes them destroyed by societal standards. He laughs at their addictions which he encouraged of them, at their lack of education, which he directly caused to them, and at their subsequent failure to have the money they make from their menial labors be put to any other use than to pay for all the fines and high car insurances (DUI's and such) they have reaped as results of their bad behaviour, as a result of their autonomy which he provided for them after he convinced them at ages 14 and 16 that they need not heed me anymore or "jump through hoops" (means rules like bedtime, homework time, and I needed to always know where they were going along with the phone numbers) (he says to them your mother is a control freak. Given their autonomy at such a young age, it wasn't two years of being around him and other such peers that they engaged in drinking, drugging, sex, and such a loose lifestyle with no rules that they one thing at a time lost their educational opportunities, dropped out of their church activities, in exchange for the party, which i later found out was primarily at the P-dad's house with his blessings.

Let me put it this way: My daughter was accomplishing Violin in orchestra, in the honor society, and loved plays through the sophomore year in highschool, when this happened, the dad said she either had to go to work or else forgo buying nicer clothes and other things. On obtaining a job, and whatever else she had to deal with from her choice to runaway from my house into his and obtain total autonomy and freedom, were the sacrifices which drove her into a depression and she dropped out of all those things and took up with her Pakistany manager who was a violent character with no emotions like her dad P.

That was eight years ago, and she has been fired twice, dropped out of college for not completing homework in the first semester for which her Dad was supposed to pay, but which he had her only sign the student loan papers and then didn't help her meet her obligations in any way. (He was bound by court order to see that she went to college if she wanted to, not make her pay for it. not keep her from having the ability to come to a quiet place and study) Like reminding her, or providing a place of structure where she could come to and accomplish her life goals or attempt to. He did this on purpose i find out later.
She is down three DUI's in less than 10 years now, a sex addict, and on drugs. Yet she bicycles to work everyday anyway and somehow keeps going. All the while each day that goes by she becomes more and more enraged with herself, and blames me, and protect him at the cost of our relationship.

He, used to revel in torturing me, and when I dropped out and slapped a court order on him, he charmed the kids to seeing things his way for the purpose of himself not paying and not abiding by the rules the court handed him. He is pleased as punch how this turned out, and says "your mother was always a loser and so you are too, you can't avoid your fate, and that was handed to you by your mother by her loser genes." (and I am stripping some other four letter adjectives).

I don't want to get into what is happeing with my son here, because the example listed above is enough to tell you what has been going on. We are and have always gone through with his antics, and chaos. All the while, he so convincingly loves us by word, but by deed, it must be plain that he hates us with every cell in his being. He really has them snowed. To this day, they think he sacrificed so much for them to be free at a younger age than their peers, and fear (that he put in them) that he could have gone to jail for giving them this, their life. so that they think that they are completely responsible for everything they have done based on their decision to help their dad get out of the court order he said was destroying him and also convincing them that it was based on neurotic lies about him by me. They bought that because he also handed them or promised to hand them a lot o f money if the need for their testimony arose in order to protect him from me. So this puts them in the position psychologically albeit lie based, of power, caretaker, and sort of god in his life. Is it any wonder they put up with all his other stuff. He loves them.. if they only knew. How can they know when he is their dad, and this is all they have ever known and he has both charmed and convinced them that the way i am is not reality, only what his world is is reality.

I just wanted to let you know that for these past eight years of silence from them, (which is nothing short of torturous worry for me) (and he knows this) I have always thought tomorrow they will come back to me - and what a mess i will have to help straighten out, and have not been able to really go on with myself, free of them - Until I read about this disorder, and specifically came to know from your account how this isn't just me, and it isn't just them, and there really is nothing else for me to do. I lost the battle. Only God Almighty in his great protection and wisdom can decide the ultimate outcome for these two damaged children. If there is justice at all here or there, then so be it. I have to let it go no matter how that makes me feel. It has taken me eight long years to come to this finally in my heart of hearts. But your letters and insights - is the first I have known that there is a way to communicate these kinds of atrocities against us. For I have been long searching for a law that he has broken that I can prove against him. He is too slick for hat having been brought up on many charges of violence in the past. He got smarter and more devious.

But reading about this and that there are so many others taken in by the charming ones who sell us on our dreams so they can have theirs, if they even have any. That is what freed me last night. The sadness of these losses will always be there, but the connection I have carried with me with my children in me and thinking i need a three bdr in case they come home, instead of just getting what ever I need - all the mental exercises included the two of them even though they are not here today, I am thinking tomorrow, they will be and we will all work through this together. It's not happening. I am a slow learner. Your postings are what brought home to me on an emotional level, what it is I was in and so now, I realize on an emotional level that I will be just me. They are whoever they are, and I am who I am. Just me. Form me that is highly difficult, for them, they are always like that. I didn't know this.

I am enrolled in full time studies, now, and have moved into what I consider paradise, and things are finally going rather well for me. Things are beginning over again. I am liking this. I have to work really really hard tho. I have lost an awful lot, everything I owned, myself, my family, quite nearly my life when this happened.

I am happy with the smallest things now, appreciate hearing the birds in the trees, and love my city i am in the now. I pray every night, and slowly I am returning back to something of my prior self, although I'll never never be the same again. Pray for the children. They were all born good. It is what we do and how we care for them that makes the impact on who they will become in our society. Pray for our children and love them. Especially in their absence. It matters. It has effect. Thank you for your postings.

Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - 10/10/05 09:25 AM

Oh my God Posey

My heart goes out to you and one thing that struck me was...this is early days for me and it will get worse. It gives me some comfort to know that I am not the only one who has had their children stolen from them and left without the most precious comfort at all....a sons/daughters love. I so identify with the tricks your p got up to to enmesh your children. Mine said the same thing...that I am a control freak and always made a point of letting them know that He trusted them totally and I did not for example over complete unhindered access to the internet for a 13 year old boy in his bedroom. Guess who the boy sided with? He bought them with money he borrowed and will not be paying back, hiding it all from me and letting me fret about where a boy of 17 gets 7 pairs of expensive trainers all in his size when the family are on wefare?

Well you know the things I am talking about. My 23 year old has started university and wants to be something but I know fine well that he will not be able to do it and will drop out and drop into something to ease the failure after failure he has had in the chaos his father has caused but does he call his father on it? No of course not. I have made his father like he is and he cannot help the terrible depressions and the 'emotions' that cause him to be irresponsible. And all the while I am getting more and more of the blame.

I thought that things were improving but p was not going to allow that and it looks bad. He has been getting at them and now they do not want me to go to the house any more (they did not come to me so I had to go to them to see them) Now they say that I boot their father out and they think it is not fair (I only asked for time with my sons)

And things have turned real nasty now. I told them that their father and I were discussing getting together again (I have been praying that God would change him as I know it is the only way) and he says that he is prepared to change. Anyway, they said that he told them no way would we get back together and the eldest son started shouting at his father saying he had lied. I tell you, the way p acted with me then, with such a menacing look on his face and mouthed threats that I could not understand (so the boy could not hear them) has really scared me enough to make me see that i must stay right out of his way. I am reporting his menacing behaviour to the police when they decide to turn up and have got the sofa pushed up to the door. I am scared. I never knew things were as bad as this.

I can only say that i am feeling the same pain as you and i cannot bear it sometimes but I know that I must do as you have done and walk away from it and give up my hopes that my sons will be with me so i can help them and I must stand by and watch the destruction of their lives, and one of them is so gifted and clever.

I do not think that I will try to see them again now. If they come to me then maybe it is just drawing it out as their father will not rest until they reject me totally, that is his aim. He was trying to keep contact to give himself fuel to further the estrangement by taking back tales of what I had said and going back crying because of 'that [censored]'. One son has special needs and is the surrogate co-dependent spouse. He is a shadow of what he was and is hostile to me most of the time. So it is just going to be time and I too am fighting a losing battle. What can we do? Just pray and leave the future in God's hands and trust Him when He said that He will bind up the broken hearted.

You are in my thoughts and prayers. Thanks for responding. It has meant a lot. I am so pleased that things are improviong for you. I have been getting involved in domstic abuse activism and hope that I will be able to be of some help to others.

from one broken heart to another
Posted by: private007

Re: General Discussion - 10/26/06 06:25 PM

I am looking for a little help. I have a 14 year old who is sooo very good at lying that he has convinced his group counselor that he was sexually abused.

Let me begin again. My son is not the child I knew 3 years ago. He lies about everything. he hurts our dog when he thinks we are not looking, he is a school bully, we have to tell him to shower, brush his hair and teeth every day, and he sexually assaulted our 3 y/o grand son.

In his group therapy he revealed that my soon to be husband sexually abused him. When he was faced with talking to the police he recanted stating he was mad and wanted to get even with him because he is always harping on him to do everyhting. He also stated that he wants to live elsewhere because then he could do what he wants when he wants. He has said in the past that he deserves better than we give him and that he should have what he wants when he wants it.

We are at our wits end because he had recanted the abuse alegation only to recant to the same people he recanted to initally. Now I have the state steppping in for interviews and possible jail time for my fiance and me. He changed his story 3 different times and his group coounselor told him that he will beleive him no matter what he says but he knows that my son was not lying when he first made the accusation. He has gone so far as to tell us, the parents one thing, while telling my 14 y/o another.

I have never been more upset and frustrated in my life.

The accusation is just another in a long line of accusations.

My son is soo good at embelishing a story, you really have to pay close attention to what he says and does inorder to know if he is lying. He can be faced with the proof and he will deny it with a straight face.

He has no conscience, feels no empathy, and feels no guilt. We have also caught him stealing fom us and playing with fire.

What do we do? We have a psychologist saying he has some serious issues and the partner of the psychologist saying we are bad parents. When asked if he has RAD or ODD he stated we were looking for a way to blame our son for bad parenting. Keep in mind that this therapist has only spoken to me for about 15 minutes, on 2 different occasions.

Any advise, direction would be greatly appreciated.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 10/26/06 06:58 PM

Hi private007, welcome to the forum. Your story is so very sad and must be more difficult than most of us could handle.

We have some information about RAD and/ Fledgling Psychopaths here at the forum, if you haven't seen it, please let me know and I will get the links for you. I just set it up as a seperate forum but am having some difficulty moving the "threads" over from the Family Section, the software guy is away for awhile.

Some good news is Dr. Hare has a youth version of his testing for your son's age. I would call around and find someone who has taken Dr. Hare's course and is familiar with defining Psychopathy in teens. It may take some work but information is power and hopefully someone trained in this field will help guide you.

To claim you are bad parents with such glaring problems is mind boggling. My own opinion is a person from mars would see your kid has some problems beyond what you can probably deal with and need some serious help to protect your rights.

I hope you are keeping a very detailed journal to back up your situation. If it is legal where you live I would personally set up some recording devices to get him on tape. I did some research not too long ago and those "nanny cams" are pretty reasonable, I think they are legal everywhere, what is not clear is some states you can record someone say via the phone without their permission and get in trouble.

Just out of curiosity, have you seen his eyes change when he is mad?

I never had children and frankly my heart goes out to you and stories like this back up my decision to not have any. In some places kids get all the rights.

Please let us know what we can do to help you and support you. I can feel the pain in your post, it has to be a horrible position to be in.

Posted by: private007

Re: General Discussion - 11/01/06 10:34 AM

Thank you. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am the type od person that writes down date, time and who I spoke with at what number. I document everything. My file is over 3 inches thick.

The problem we are now facing is that his therapist will not release him from his program in order to admit my son to another program. We have to have the state step in and go back to court, once again.

So for now we have to have a 3rd party stay with us so it will no longer be our word against our sons word. Neither one of us are allowed to be alone with our son, nor let him be alone with anyone else. This was strongly recommended because originally it was set up to have my son admited to a facility that would properly diagnose and start some sort of treatment, but since his therapist has decided that we as parents are the problem we are not allowed to leave the state or the county. I can't have him go to juvenile jail because he is not allowed to be around other kids without supervision, so we have to restructure our hime, work and family's lives.

I have not slep in my bed. I have to sleep in the hallway so I will be able to prevent my son from coming in contact with anyone at night. I can't lock his door that is an infringement of his rights and a fire hazard and I would be arrested. So I removed the lock so my sone could not accuse us of doing this because he stated he did not know it was illlegal for the parents to lock a kid in their room. All said with a smile on his face.

Florida is the worst state to recieve any help in. They consider the parents the root of all problems and when you try to get help, you are an overreactive parent.

What help is available? I am entering into a world I thought I was rid of when my brother left. He was 14 when all his p problems came about. I have not made contact with him in over 20 years. He left hoe after trying to chock me to death in my sleep.

Any information, at this point, would be wonderful!

Thanks for all the support. We need it.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 11/01/06 11:04 AM

Hi, thanks for answering. How does your son act around this third party? Like a real charmer? From all I have read about these kids they can be very tricky because they will lie like crazy and act totally different around others.

There is a show on MSNBC that I finally caught the entire show the other night. The first time I only caught part of it. The kid was adopted from Russia and diagnosed with RAD. The father really didn't understand the problem with the mother & kid because the kid acted fine when he was around, which I have read a million times at the RAD forums. Anyway, the kid was into self mutilation and the father left for a golfing trip for some bonding time with the mother and kid. All hell broke lose being left alone and the mother was accused of child abuse because the kid died. Personally I believed the mother but because she acted "detatched" etc when the kid died, the system, the therapists and the jury basically hung her out to dry. When the jury saw the photos they all "assumed" it was the mothers fault and would not accept the kid did it to himself. Also the two therapists she was consulting with didn't give her any help and actually helped sink her in the eyes of the jury by their statements. She wound up with a 16 year prison sentence and was released in 8 years, in the meantime her husband had died of cancer. I am racking my brain to remember what State they were in. Something inside of me says Florida but I can't confirm it, I was so spellbound by the terrible rap the mother took for an evil kid.

If the third party is there, where do they sleep or do they just come around during the day? How about putting an alarm on the kids door and/or doors in every room so you can monitor where he is? Frankly I would alarm all the doors to make sure he wasn't harming any others, the animals etc. and restrict his movement inside the house.

I hate to sound cold but is the state trying to put him into foster care? I would be worried about liability and how this is back firing on both of you. I agree, Florida is a State that I was reading about quite awhile ago and the massive flaws. They have a really broken system. I would guess they aren't the only state. It seems to be an issue all over that gets very little attention, unfortunately for the parents, the kids and society in general.

I can't tell you enough how my heart goes out to you.

Posted by: private007

Re: General Discussion - 11/01/06 11:30 AM

The state is not trying to get him into foster care. Just the opposite. They are helping in getting him re-evaluated. It is the state appointed therapist, court ordered also, who thinks he resides over all beings, that is holding everything up. He feels he is best suited to treat my sons problems. At this point he has made it very clear that the parents are the problem. See, the more people he blames, the more therapy everyone needs. Now I have a parenting class, and group I too have to attend, and guess who is the counselor for those groups? He is! So now I have to meet with him, and oppose him at the same time.

My son is a perfect gentleman around people at first.He tends to look right at you in the face when he is lieing. He doesn't flinch or twitch. When he lies, he fidgits and looks at you form side to side. Then he gets used to seeing them and acts like he does with us. Our brother and his wife stay the night, in our room. We are camping out in the livingroom and the floor. My fiance feels he would be better able to protect me if anything happened, if we were in the livingroom. Can't put alarms on the doors, it stipulates that we are intimidating him into submission, or so the therapist says.

So now I have to find someone who is willing to leap out of the professional courtsey standards and evaluate my son, without the consent of the therapist.

I am trying to gather any information I can find. I have until next Tuesday.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 11/01/06 11:50 AM

Hi, just an idea. I don't know what to suggest except to start calling any Psychologist or Psychiatrist you can find and ask if they have taken Dr. Hare's course. I think the new Youth Version that Dr. Hare has is for 13 - 17. Most professional people will do a certain amount of pro bono work, hopefully you will land on one that can. I checked with Dr. Hare's office in the past and they don't keep track of who takes the training so this is as much as I can think up.

Posted by: mybrother

Re: General Discussion - 11/01/06 06:16 PM


For the first time I feel I may get the answers I was so desperately looking in regards to my brother. My brother is 38 years old and has been in and out of jail all his life. This summer he murdered our 92 year old neighbour - it was a robbery gone very bad but premediated. All his life he has hurt so many people. I struggle because I love my brother (there were some good times) and I thought he loved me but I'm beginning to think he is incapable of love and the love he did show me was just another con. He gets this glazed look in his eyes where you know to just stay out of his way. His last crime, before the murder, he took a samari sword to a guy in a drug deal gone bad. He cons everyone, including the authorities. His father was also very violent and may have been a product of incest. Both my brother and sister are drug addicts but my sister only hurts herself whereas my brother continues to hurt everyone around him. He blames everyone else for his actions and feels that society somehow owes him everything. But then he turns around and says he's sorry. I help him again get on his feet, only to see him repeat the same crime and destructive behaviour. I am so totally drained.

My sister has 4 children. The last 2 children were born addicted to drugs. The youngest child may be moving in with me because his father cannot raise him anymore. He is 5 years old and is starting to show some violent signs. I am worried this child is exhibiting the same behaviours as my brother. For instance, this little boy plucked feathers out of a live family pet bird, and consequently killed their bird. He has to be harnesed while going to school on the bus because he bullies the other kids - he doesn't seem to know what's right or wrong.

Is psychopathy in the genes? Is it possible that my nephew inherited these traits? And if so, how do you help a child who has these types of behaviours? I'm scared to be a mom and raise my nephew but I don't want him getting lost in the foster care system and getting worse. How can I lobby government to keep my brother in prison? I know as soon as he gets out, more people will be hurt and abused.

Thank you
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 11/02/06 11:58 AM

Hi mybrother, welcome to the forum.

Your laundry list about your brother sure has the scent of being a Psychopath but really only you can figure that out. Since they are treatment resistant it isn't like dealing with a "normal" person and getting them help. Help for them will only add to their skills at being a Psychopath. Being a Psychopath is being all about "me", no matter what you try to do they will never change.

Have you considered having a group family/friend meeting to discuss and set what boundaries each one of you is willing to do. Clear lines about everything will probably be what will let your own family survive. Just because he is your brother doesn't mean you have to stay in contact with him.

There is some gene information that JustAMan has addressed about the current information on the gene figures. I would also suspect that any child could mimick the characterists of their father if the father for example was a Psychopath.

Nothing is ever gained by associating with a Psychopath. Cold hard facts. Without the ability to express empathy anyone including family members are targets for gain to a Psychopath.

Do you vist him in prison? How long of a sentence did he get, only if you don't mind saying.

Posted by: mybrother

Re: General Discussion - 11/03/06 01:39 PM

Thank you for your speedy response and information. I have not visited him in jail but I have thought about doing so. I want to know why he did it. I want him to admit what he did was wrong. I want to hear that he feels remorse for his actions. I want to know that my brother is human and not the monster that the media portrayed. The same blood that runs through my veins runs through him - so I have to believe that somewhere deep inside of him he feels love and pain like I do.

For the first time I have started counselling through my university. My counsellor advised me to read Hare's "Without Conscience...". My mother does not plan on seeing my brother for a very long time, if at all. My sister is too messed up on drugs to contact him, but if he did reach her, she would give in to him because she always does, like me.

His trial begins next spring and he will most likely get 10 years given his lengthy record. However, in Canada, criminals can get out in 1/3rd of their time. I am worried that when he gets out, he will find me and say he's a changed man and again history will repeat itself. The detective advised that I get a restraining order but I know that wouldn't stop him ~ if he wants to find me he could. My mother is asking the courts to make sure he is never allowed back where we live and that he does his time in another province but it is still in discussion whether that is possible. I think that it just means we are shifting the problem to another community...and that's not fair either.
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - 11/03/06 02:44 PM

Hi mybrother,

I'm sorry you've had these terrible experiences - I sometimes think that relatives of antisocial people are the forgotten victims. In a way it's even more difficult because you're always tied to the person, at least relationally/biologically. It's really good that you've started counselling so that you can give voice to your feelings and have someone help you sort through all of this.

I have a few comments to make first with regard to your brother and then your nephew. I can certainly understand your need to meet your brother and hear directly from him why he did it. However based on what you said about him, I fear you may be setting yourself up to be hurt a great deal if he doesn't seem genuinely remorseful, in the way that you hope. You clearly are a very empathetic person and want to give him the benefit of the doubt but I've learnt that sometimes having that kind of faith can bring damage to you repeatedly if it's not well placed. At a minimum, I hope you would only try to confront him after you have been in counselling for a while and perhaps are stronger emotionally. I'm curious what your counsellor would advise you to do if you ever want to share that.

Reading about your nephew was wrenching - it always is when it involves children. Because of his young age, I'd like think he was only acting out of misplaced aggression towards the bird because he doesn't have any other avenue for hurt that he's experienced. Perhaps because he's still in his early formative years there's hope that through counselling, he can learn to express himself differently. Kids who grow up in those environments must feel terribly vulnerable and frustrated - they need some sense of control and order too. It's great that you would take him in - you seem like you have a nurturing spirit and I imagine you would provide a more fitting and sheltering environment for him to live in.

I hope nothing I said with regard to your brother offends you. It's just that you've been through a hellish time and I think it's important for you to start to heal rather than inadvertantly draw out the pain.

Take care,
Posted by: mybrother

Re: General Discussion - 11/04/06 01:53 AM

Thank you for your input and support sylvia. I wish there was a group where you could meet face-to-face to discuss these issues. There's so much to say and learn.

When the media broke out that my brother had done these terrible things, it made it more real yet unbelieveable. I was in denial at first (maybe I still am). The media never sympathizes with how the family of the "monster" must feel. They only want to report that the family was "messed up"...whatever makes for good TV...but it also happens in the coffee room at work or between friends... "so did you hear about that psycho that..." so yes I totally agree - we are the forgotten victims. I never tell anyone about my family because I'm scared they will automatically judge or stereotype. The man my brother murdered was the grandfather of one of my friends and I still do not know if he knows it was my brother who did it. I still have not talked to him (the grandson) but I dream about telling him. I know I have to tell him one day but I continue to hide under this shield because my brother and I have different last names and we are 9 years apart in age. I saw the grandson (my friend) on the news saying "what kind of animal would do this to a man in his golden years" and there I sit watching and knowing that was my brother.

Thank you so much for listening and giving me feedback. I really appreciate your insight even though I don't even know you.
Posted by: sylvie25

Re: General Discussion - 11/05/06 05:19 AM

Hi MB,

Hope you don't mind that I've changed your name a bit - I feel a little uncomfortable addressing you as "mybrother" even though I understand why you picked it. You're very welcome - posters here can relate to at least some measure of what others are going through and that makes for a supportive environment.

It wouldn't surprise me if you're still in denial. That's a lot to absorb all at once and hopefully counselling will help you cope with the realization of what happened. It sounds like you are carrying your brother's shame. It's a natural reaction especially since less evolved members of society would have you think, that as a family member, you ought to feel ashamed. It's also ironic - especially if he isn't remorseful (don't know whether or not that's the case). I hope in time (and with the help of your counsellor and whatever other means you have), you start to recognize that you're not responsible for your adult brother's actions and you have the right to still hold your head up high based on the strength of your own track record as an individual. Not easy, I know.

I wonder, are you isolating yourself? I hope you do things to divert your mind, rather than ruminating about it all the time (like most of us tend to do). Whether it's reading, listening to music, watching a movie, gardening....anything to try and maintain your emotional and psychological health and keep yourself from being overwhelmed by negativity.

I was also curious if you've looked up support groups for families of offenders. I have to think they exist. Or would you not want that for fear of people knowing that you are related?

Hope you keep posting. We're here to "listen".

Take care,
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 11/05/06 10:11 AM

Hi MB, I was thinking some more and had some information you might find helpful. Keep in mind that I am pro prosecution.

Getting any form of remorse from him is not possible if he is a Psychopath and if he does say the words I bet you will see a lack of emotion behind the words.

Just because he is your brother doesn't mean you are forced to feel sorry for him or open your doors to him, he has proven how terrible he can be. Psychopaths are the best at feeling sorry for themselves; they just don't get it and when a person is lacking a conscience hard telling what they might do. A person can also get what is called "institutionalized" and feel no particular concern about returning to prison. Many of them cannot conduct themselves on parole and end up back in the slammer.

I would not let his defense team pressure you in any way to give a statement on his behalf to try and repair his already tainted act of his crime. I would be sensitive to the victims and those are the people I would bond with and be on their side.

If you wish to send a message silently to the jury, sit on the side of the prosecution not behind your brother.

You have some very tough shoes to walk in. Regarding the young child. The conscience forms between 3 Ė 5, as I understand it. By that point it should be pretty clear what you are dealing with. If he has had exposure to your brother he may be exhibiting some traits. In any case he sounds very disturbed from what you have said, if you are comfortable could would expand what this child is also doing etc? I would have to say make sure you are protecting your own family as a priority. I am sure not every kid who acts cruel towards animals turns out to be a Psychopath, however I see it as a disturbing element.

Posted by: Melanie

Re: General Discussion - 11/30/06 11:37 PM


I'm a new member and have joined because I'm sure my dad was a sociopath crossed with a borderline personality disorder. My psychologist pointed out the above to me, and a hospital diagnosed my dad with BPD three months ago. The reason I'm seeing a psychologist is because my dad commited suicide last week which has been very truamtic for me and my family as you can imagine.

What I find most distirubing/confusing is that my dad treated me like I was perfect while treating everyone else in typically sociopathic nature; lying, deceipt, stealing, violence, manipulation. The fact that he treated me reasonably well (he still lied and maniuplated me, but no violence or stealing that I'm aware of) makes it hard for me to accept the fact that he was a sociopath even though I have ample evidence that he was.

The other thing that confuses me is that he killed himself. I didn't think sociopaths/pyscopaths opted for suicide usually?? But, I guess this could be the borderline personality disorder influence because I'm told there's a 9 - 15% mortatlity rate associated with that particular personality disorder.

I'm also feeling terrible guilt for abandonning my dad after his 3rd marriage. He left his 3rd wife 7 months ago and took 25,000 UK pounds of her money. He also sent on-going harrassing emails, letters and phone messages to her, her poor children, her friends and colleagues. I decided I could nolonger tolerate his behaviour and took a 'touch love' approach to him which I regret to a certain extent because he ended up killing himself. All I really wanted to do was protect myself and my fiance from his out of control behaviour and also show him that he needed to get some serious help. Now that I understand he was most likely a sociopath, I can see that I was wasting my time and energy - they never get help unless forced by the legal or mental health system do they?

One other feeling I have is relief - it was incredibly upseting for me to watch him torment others and himself. I felt helpless to do anything to help him stop.

Has anyone else had an experience like me? I'm stuck between missing and being guilty about a Dad I loved, and feeling relief/horror at the fact that my Dad was a nasty sociopath.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 12/01/06 08:32 AM

Hi Mel,

In answer to one of your questions, help is something that unless court ordered a Psychopath would probably never seek, or they might go along if a spouse or family insists. There is information that any kind of help probably would only make them worse. We have a thread here about Therapy and Psychopaths that I'll go look for so you can read it and hopefully help you.

I can understand your shock but with a Psychopath you could have given him the world and nothing would have changed except he would come back and ask for more of the world or rob you of it.


Hi Mel, in scanning through the "threads" I found a couple you might find interesting:

Therapy and the effects

Suicide and Murder
Posted by: Melanie

Re: General Discussion - 12/02/06 06:27 PM

Hi Dianne

Thank you for responding to my posts. I've replied to a post made by "More Cautious Now" under Murders & Suicides because I think what she described applied to my Dad's situation/suicide.

Thanks again for your help.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 12/03/06 08:35 AM

Hi Mel,

Keep in my I am not a professional therapist, however, that said, it is my understanding that people who threaten suicide or make mild attempts are calling out for help. The serious ones will do it and succeed at killing themselves. Does your dad threaten?

He might also be showing crocodile tears and playing poor me over his parents etc. A true Psychopath is all about themselves and how they fool others into thinking they really feel emotions for others, imo.

Dr. Hare defines the word Psychopath as the current terminology. Of course many still use the term "sociopath" but the proper word if they fit the profile is Psychopath.

Posted by: Melanie

Re: General Discussion - 12/03/06 04:22 PM

Hi Dianne

My Dad suceeded in killing himself it was clear that it was not a cry for help. He had threatened suicide to his wives in the past, but not to me. His suicide was very in keeping with the view that psychopaths are out for themselves. His note was very self - oriented and passed blame for his situation.

Unfortunately I have to disagree with your statement that the psychopath has replaced the term sociopath. Based on many readings and my Dad's diagnosis, my understanding is that a sociopath is a type of psychopath/antisocial personality but does show different traits that make him/her unique. Often the terms are used interchangeably which is why some people think they refer to exactly the same thing. Both sociopaths and psychopaths can be equally destructive. There has always been a clear differentiation between the two, namely that a sociopath's destructive behaviour presents as being more impulsive where as a psychopath is more planned. A psychopath also tends more towards physical violence than a sociopath, but this doesn't necessarily exclude sociopaths from violence, its just a generalisation. Dr Hare actually does differentiate between the two in many works.

There is also clear evidence that psychopaths and sociopaths DO show emotion, albeit at a child-like level. They most certainly do not show emotion for others (which might be what you mean), but they do show emotion for themselves. There are also threads on your forum that support this finding (discussions around the difference between conscience and emotion). In typical form of a psychopath/sociopath, their emotion is VERY self oriented. The elation they feel when they deceive or hurt and the 'low' they would feel when not suceeding in their destructive plans is definately emotion as is the anger they demonstrate when they feel they have been exposed. I wonder if it may be easier for some people to believe that they have no emotion at all because it may help victims feel ambivalent towards the person who has abused them. In the end, regardless of whether they feel emotion of not, a psychopath or sociopaths behaviour is still unacceptable and they should be kept away from.

Anyway, I hope you don't take my response to your post as a push back of your understanding or your experience. Your posts and threads have been very helpful to me and I'm grateful that I've been able to access this site. My intention is only to encourage some healthy debate around the 'inner workings' of such people with a view to helping better our understanding of the psychopath.

Posted by: denfox

Re: General Discussion - 12/03/06 08:09 PM

Hi Mel,

I just thought I'd drop you a note and let you know that while I haven't had the same experience of losing a loved one to suicide, that I do know that some of the confusion and guilt that you describe may be associated to the natural mourning process. I'm sure that you recognize this as well.

It's not your fault, any of it. Your father was sick, we don't know exactly why; but, it is okay for you to still love him and mourn his loss despite the torment he may have caused. This is the paradox, that the sociopath can display so very different sides to different people. Although he may have left a note blaming others, and he may have felt that his own torment and depression was situational, I would venture that the fact that he took his own life is an indication that at some level, he did feel guilt. Despite his antisocial behavior and without denying that he was a sociopath, he was perhaps not so totally malevolent or entirely lacking of a conscience - as evidenced by his final act.

As you seek understanding, may you also find peace in your own heart.

Best regards,
Posted by: denfox

Re: General Discussion - 12/04/06 11:14 AM

Hi Mel,

I hope you find what you're looking for and accept the support this group offers.

I just wanted to drop you a note, and say that since my posting yesterday, I have learned more and should have more appropriately used the term psychopath where I have said sociopath - not only in this post, but in my other previous postings. What we are dealing with is psychopathy. I hope you can see that, as I have now too.

I have a more generalized question for the group as well, how common is depression and other mental health issues amongst psychopaths?

Is it more likely that a psychopath will have other problems, or is their psychopathy so defining that all other problems become trivial in comparison?

Best wishes,
Posted by: Christina

Is my son a psychopath? - 01/05/07 12:39 AM

Hi my name is Christina

I have a 21 year old son who still lives at home and goes to college. I have recentlly made an appointment for him to see a therapist. I dont really know where to start, the first time I remember him having problems was when he was 8 years old, he came to my office after school and said he wanted to die, I was surprised and worried, so I sent him to see a therapist, they said he was normal and just bored and was very manipulative. He has always been sort of a hothead especially when he doesn't get his way, even for the simplest reason, I always remember this strange hateful spooky look in his eyes. When he was 12 he was seeing psychologists for his dislike of school, again but nothing ever seemed to help and they could never seem to tell me what was wrong with him. At 13 the therapist he was seeing said he was dangerous for talking about wanting to kill a kid from school and recomended that he go to a psych ward, he did for a week, but then again they couldn't tell me what was wrong with him and after that I pulled him out of school and he went to homeschool. I later learned that he had about of months worth of homework that he didn't want to do and wanted to go to a psych ward to try and get out of school, which he succeeded. At age sixteen he tried to frame someone at the high school he used to go to for possesion of marijuana, he said the reason he did it was that he wanted to hang out with some of his friends and this guy with a car always got in his way, so he stashed wild grown marijuana in his car and called the cops on him.
He went back to see a therapist to get out of trouble for the act and succeeded once again. The docters never could say what was wrong with him, but suspected a type of personality disorder but was too young to be diagnosed. After that he has been suspected of a few burgleries, I has gotten a DUI, shoplifting, underage drinking, countless speeding tickets, and right now there is a charge on him for agrivated battery. He was in the Marines for a little over a year but was medically seperated for having a Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which he claims he was malingering for depression to get out of the Marines because he hated them. When he got home he got unemployment checks and the only reason he is going to college is because he found a way to get the government to pay for it.
I have read the book Without Conscience and I cant say for sure if he is a psychopath, I feel so guilty for even saying the possibility for my littlest angel being a psychopath descibed in that book, but I have too face the truth about my son and was wondering if anyone with experience with psychopaths could help me out.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Is my son a psychopath? - 01/05/07 06:48 PM

Hi Christina, welcome to the forum. I am sorry for your situation. It must be a terrible thing to have to consider your son is a Psychopath.

There is a thread here I recommend in case you haven't seen it:
Click Here:
Therapy and its effects

This is a quote I found somewhere and had it on file about Dr. Hare and therapy for Psychopaths:

In reply to:

That is why Hare believes that therapy makes psychopaths worse; most of them learn about human emotions through psychiatry, and they are "eager to attribute their faults and problems to childhood abuse." [Hare, 50]. Also, "antisocials (psychopaths) themselves can be uncooperative or unpleasant, complicating efforts to study and treat them." [Black, 12].

Please keep in mind that I have never walked in your shoes but from what I understand therapy can be a negative. Would you consider seeing a professional who has taken Dr. Hare's course for an evaluation? They don't keep a list of who has taken this course so it will take some leg work to find one who has. I am sure with some phone calls you will. It would seem that for your own peace of mind to get to the real diagnosis would be a way to let you know what to do next. Are there other siblings in the family?

I am sure some parents who are in your position will come along with some more input.

All my best,


It has only been recently that Dr. Hare has released a youth version of his checklist so I am sure when you began this journey not enough was probably known to give you the help you so desperately need.
Posted by: wendi

Re: General Discussion - 07/17/07 11:42 PM

Hi, this is my first post. I am too worn down right now to go into over forty years of what my psychopathic sister has wrought upon myself and my family. Back in the early 80's, before the word psychopath was as frequently used among the general public, I remember reading the description of one in a book on abnormal psychology, and thinking "that's her!"

I recently decided to cut off all relations with her. My husband has wanted me to do for 15 years. This time it is my choice due to an unbelievable stunt she pulled, with me as her target as usual, leaving me out of $10,000+ dollars.

How, you ask? Without going into details right now, she is extremely charming (superficially), able to set anyone at ease, very likable (if you really don't know her), articulate, was a beauty in her day, is still attractive for her age, very persuasive, has no conscience, feels no remorse, and has succeeded in convincing most of my siblings except one that *I* am the one who has always harmed her.

There is only one of my siblings who is backing me up and that is because she has pulled rotten things over and over on him too, although not as severe as the ones on me, because he's male and she's afraid of him. He cut her off several years ago.

The other siblings live far away and only come for visits. I've tried explaining what *really* happened/happens, and they still all believe her - to the extent of writing me emails telling me how "hateful and mean" I am to her - yet I have never been in any kind of trouble, and she has been in nothing but trouble (DUI's, stealing large amounts of money from my parents, hit-and-runs, doing drugs, etc, etc, and to this day is a functional alcoholic - though the psychopathic behavior came long before her alcoholism).

I am also the one my father chose as executor of the estate over 10 years ago, and he was not a stupid man. Now he is frail and in ill health - and my sister has just used that fact as an easier way to take even more advantage of him, to the point where my parents have almost depleted their lifetime savings ever since my father's mental faculties declined.

I do my best to stop her from taking everything they have but she is so used to scheming she knows many tricks and roadblocks. I *do* have power of attorney, but that doesn't stop my parents from handing her over money constantly for things that are "broken" (i.e. she wants some expensive clothes, or some fancy repairs done on house at their cost, or even has *my father* do them, whose balance is precarious as it is).

She's already even talking about the cheapest nursing home "we can put him in," where relatives have to provide food, laundry care, etc (meaning me, of course). The fact is if he was being *helped,* as my husband, brother, and I am trying to do, he could have many productive years left.

I know cutting off a sibling is a drastic step but I have tied myself in loops trying to get along with her because it hurts my mother so much for all of us to not get along. In addition, I loved and cared about my sister, and remember when we were children how so different she was - thoughtful, always coming up with fun things to do, just a great sister.

But when she hit her teens and became a real beauty everything seemed to change. She introduced all us younger siblings to hard liquor by the age of 14 and drugs such as cocaine by 16.

For many years the family considered her the "star" of the family, perhaps due to her stunning looks and ability to become friends with almost anyone and have people flock around her. It was as if everything revolved around her.

Even when it started becoming apparent (to my parents, anyway) that she was a rotten apple, they, especially my mother, would make excuses for her - "she's stressed", she's going through a divorce," "she's out of work," "how would you feel if your daughter was on crack?" (Bad, but I have a good clue why).

Now my mother sighs and admits many of the things my sister does is wrong, but I can tell she is so worn out she just doesn't have the energy to try to make her behave decently, which she had started doing in her 50's and 60's.

I could fill a magazine with the stunts my sister has pulled over the years, and many of them are so outrageous some people would probably find it hard to believe someone would do such things, often to their own family.

What really is a downer for me right now is she is going around telling all our relatives, distant and close, some she barely even knows, and even MY in-laws, some of whom *I* barely know, all kind of lies about me.

Well, I didn't mean to make this so long, but glad to meet you all (though sad if you have someone like my sister in your family tree).

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 07/22/07 01:27 PM

Hi Wendi, welcome to the forum, sorry for the delay in responding. I am moving and hate packing.

Your story is so sad, yet so familiar to read after all these years having the forum.

It is very difficult cutting off a sibling, I have experience with that. At first my mother acknowledged the rotten things my brother did to me, now that she is close to 80 she has tried a couple of tricks to get me to talk to him.

I think in life when people like your sister runs around bad mouthing you to others it is best to take the high road and not defend the lies. Keep in mind that is just my opinion, hopefully some other members will weigh in on this issue. Even though my own brother isn't a full blow Psychopath it has been difficult because I probably have too much empathy. On this one I will hold my ground.

I think the people that count and can think for themselves will see what your sister is telling them are nothing but a pack of lies. If the others buy into her game, that is up to them. I think trying to explain and deflect what a Psychopath is saying could become a full time job.

If you have power of attorney (thankfully) wouldn't you be the one to control where they end up as far as the nursing home situation?

I am sure it is hard for your mother to admit she has a monster for a daughter. Is there anyway to still have a relationship with your mother and deflect speaking about your sister and not hurting your mom?

I would suggest speaking wtih an attorney and see if you could get conservatorship (sic) over your parents affairs since they are being robbed by your sister. I guess I am saying if possible to find a way to block her from essentially robbing them?

Posted by: jemmmy42

Re: General Discussion - 12/16/07 05:30 PM

My email light is flashing, but when I go in, it says I have a message from Diane, but cannot open email???

Also, a message keeps coming saying I have more private messages sent or received and can't use this facility now.

Help, I am new member and have no private messages. Also, where is the new posting facility?

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussion - 01/21/08 04:24 AM

Hi there,

This is my first ever forum, and I'm so glad that it's here - thank you.

My mother is a P and it's only recently that a psychologist clarified what this actually means, in depth. Although she was physically there I never actually had a mother. Despite living with the realities of her neglect and abuse I was never able to grieve what I didn't have because I didn't know what real mothering was about and on a deep inner level I'd never made sense of why I didn't have it. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that I believed she never loved me because of some flaw inside myself. Even therapists who knew the abuse etc, still said, "Oh, but underneath it all she loved you, she's your mother." They just didn't get it that, no, she actually didn't, I just couldn't take that comfort and this was what I found so hard. I used to wonder what was so wrong with me that I just couldn't feel that she loved me. But once I learned that a core reality of a P is an inability to love, I realised my not being loved was not about me but her. This was a massive shift, a key that has opened a door for me to step through to a new layer of healing. Now I have finally, after decades, begun to grieve. I've also realised that just because she didn't love me it doesn't mean that I can't.

I know that I really need some support but I'm too afraid to reveal myself. My way of coping thus far has been to keep totally to myself. I understand that to the average person in the world just mentioning the P word in any seriousness way kind of makes then stop and take a double look at me. Even the psychologist put me through the griller. It might be the parent whose the P but as a P's child it's as though I have to automatically I'm not one. Crime by association, almost. On a level I understand, the psychologist means well, but there isn't the under-the-skin sense of 'knowing', and that's the massive isolation I hadn't been able to bridge. I've not met another person with a P relative, so the forum is really opening up this world for me. Thank you.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 01/21/08 05:39 AM

Hi Sapphira

Iím pleased you have found this forum, as you will see everyone here has had to deal with a P in their life whether, like yourself, the child of one or the parent, partner or sibling.

It is difficult to discuss this disorder with anyone who hasnít been in the same situation because as you rightly say, they do a double take as they think of Ps as the mad serial killer not the ordinary looking man/woman in the street.

It sounds as though you have worked out some positive strategies to get your life back on track which is great. It seems as though you can stand back and look at the situation objectively so would benefit greatly by sharing your situation with others.

Please feel free to tell us as much as you need, it is also very therapeutic to write things down and there are plenty of people here who will be very happy to give their support. You will find the people who relate closely with your circumstances are willing to discuss things with you and will listen which is so important as you probably have never openly discussed your problem with anyone else.

When you feel ready maybe you could tell us what things have been like for you and how your mother came to be diagnosed.

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussion - 01/21/08 12:08 PM

Hi Jan,

Thank you for your reply. You are right, I haven't talked openly about this with anyone, apart from the psychologist recently. It's wierd because I've seen so many therapists and counsellors over the years, and I was able to talk about particular incidents of abuse and my experiences, but I just ended up repeating what seemed like random experiences without any logic. They'd try to 'place' her. Narcisstic? Borderline? Anitsocial? But nothing fit. How could it? Thing is, now I have a frame in which to hang the picture of my life, and I'm absolutely terrifed to talk about what happened.

I lived my entire life juggling to keep these balls in the air. Now I can stop. And while it's a wonderful place to get to after so many sacrifices and hard work to survive, I just can't trust it, yet. Nowhere to put roots down into 'normal' life, shell shocked all my life, 'normality' is hard to adjust to. So late into my actual life I feel like I'm only just beginning. Now that I have found something of my self I can see just how much of my life I have lost. Shattered to bits. I don't know if one lifetime will be enough time to put me back together. But yes, I'm working hard to find a track in my life. And despite everything I do realise that it could have been a lot worse. She refused to support me financially since I was 12 and so I learned early on to make my own way, although she retained rigid control over my life in all other ways. But I managed to get out when I was 17 and never went back. It then took me more than two decades before I was able to expose her enough to stop her harassment and attempts to have me 'locked up', one way or another. I've had NC for six years and lost my entire family in the process but at least I now have a chance. If I hadn't got out I wouldn't even have that.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 01/21/08 04:59 PM

hello Sapphira,
I joint this forum a month ago.I was as happy as you are with it!!
My son is the p in my life.
The more I read about it , the more I realize that both my parents had to be too.
It's not that I am ignorant about it. I just was to buzy with other things, and of course surviving my son to think about that possibillity with these people.
Thereby...I didn't see them since I was about 16 years of age.
I will tell some other time about that life I had to live then.

For now I want to respond on your posting.

You are an incrediblle woman.

If you are able to be the way you write than there is nothing at all that really can put you down.
A lifetime to recover? NO WAY!
Think about it...Now you you can put te blame where it belongs. Bit by bit you can take the shame away, the feeling of not being good enough, the feeling that if your mother isn't loving you, who would... all those things, all those feelings, all that has happend can find a place, can get in another place than in your heart, your system
All that energy you used to survive can be used now to build your live the way you choose.

You are a grown up woman..not before, maybe in age you where, but I mean the way things can get in perspective now...the information you get now, it will help you to put it in order, to make any sense about it...( as far as there is any sense in living with a p in your life)
You know now there's nothing wrong with you. As an adult you can get grip of your live now. NOW your life begins. YOU are the one who can give it the form you want, be what you want, do what you want, surround yourself with people you like.
Start with little things..Ask yourself is this what I want...or am I doing this because I was learned to do this...Is this way of thinking the way I want to see things or is it the way she made me see it.
My I really wan this one Or is it an old habit?
This way you make your life your own. Make things yours and this way you can mold your live the way you please.Starting with little things make you succeed and going along you get stronger.

You will also greave, but the worlds keeps on turning and time will heal.

I wish you well.
Again, as Jan said already, feel wlcome and write the things you want to tell about..We will read, and we will react.
Love Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 01/22/08 10:52 AM


I've just found this interesting link.

Scroll down to Inside the Mind of a Psychopath
Listen to or download the mp3

I have met with one of the doctors interviewed from this radio programme and have also visited UCL to give a presntation and talk about my experiences so I found it fascinating.

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussion - 01/22/08 12:54 PM

Hi Segaya,

Thank you for your lovely reply! I keep re-reading it, wanting to thank you earlier but this whole process of reaching out, I suppose, has been quite overwhelming - desperate to connect but so not used to it when I do.

You made me laugh, though, when you mentioned the toothpaste...I can so relate to that:) Everything is a choice now, everything, even which toothpaste I want to use. It's so new, and so hard at times, because sometimes I feel I don't know how to choose. Small choices can be so stressful because it brings me face to face with a freedom I haven't had.

When I look back and ask myself, where was I in such-and-such experience? I know I did xyz, but was it really what I wanted? And there seemed to be no 'I' to want. There was never allowed to be. It was so pervasive and scary now when I look at it, but the way it was from the start. The 'it' I just realise, is the amount of control. And it was when I tried to assert myself in small ways about matters relating to my body and essential rights to me that all hell broke out.

When I did get away physically I was still handicapped by the fact that I'd never learned how to make choices for myself and importantly, how to say no. It was only when I was being counselled after being raped when I was 21 that the crisis worker leaned over and quietly told me that, actually, I have a right to say "no". Boy, that was something! So you really hit the nail on the head when said about now being the grown woman. It happened almost overnight. The psychologist gave me some books to read and it all started to fall into place. I'd been frozen for decades and then suddenly there was a shift. A big shift, like stepping into shoes I'd been floating above all my life.

It's a big process of adjustment now, coming to life, but I feel a peace with myself, because the way I've been all my life finally made sense. I grew up with a P whose underlying rationale was to wield total control over me and this is what I became. But at the same time there is the realisation, looking back, that saying no wasn't the only normal thing I didn't have. I never heard words to describe feelings. My mother, never once in my life, ever asked how I felt about anything. Just a void. I knew something wasn't right when I started to mix with people to whom I got close enough that they asked me how I felt about things (and that must sound wierd too) because the concept of what 'I felt' was so foreign and once I got it, I didn't have the words. Over time I got the words. But it's a wierd thing to look back and just see that realm really never figured in my life and environment at all. But now it makes sense. It just wasn't part of who she was. Our life was mechanical. We functioned, physically. There was a mess, we cleaned up. But there was never any recognition that maybe someone's favourite milk jug got broken, and what that might mean. It just wasn't there. The 'it' being meaning. No wonder I was so depressed! Now there is an open road ahead, comparatively. And I think the reason I keep re-reading your post, and those particular words, is because they reflect such a profound process - obtaining myself.

So thank you. Truly.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 01/22/08 04:15 PM

Hello Sapphira...
Glad that you can use it....
I can relate to what you told...I have been there..... So I know there is a way out.

My parents where also p's now I know.
I will tell in short...
I was born 48 years ago. I wasn't even 4 months old when the doctor discovered a sexual transmitted disease in my mouth and throut.
Long after that..when I was around 22 years I asked my mother( or whatever to call her) why she let this happen..her answer;...'it ment that he would leave me in peace'... This is a nice way to put it, but to translate her true words is wasn't very
after my parents divorced my mother started to work at home as a sort of prositute. Now I think that is her hoice and I know more people who did, and several do this job to get food for they're no judgement there from me!...The thing I don't like and didn't understand at the time is that se send me with these man..I was around 6 to 8 years at that time...
When she remarried, that man was terrible..he couldn't keep his hands off of me and when he didn't succeed in doing what he wanted he beated me severely. I had brain demage, broken ribs, bruces, but also he attacked me with a knife.
When I just turned 16 I ran away and never went back. I saw them every somuch years for minutes at a time.
Those times I tend to ask her things about what happend. All the answers I got where the same;
'If he did it to you, at least he didn't do it to me'...

My reason for existing was to be used, and after being used to be thrown away. I was worthless. I recognize what you say about no consideration whatsoever with my feeings. They just didn't excist. I didn't have toys...I wasn't allowed to play or have friends. me and my older brother had to take care of her,the house and ( if there was any) the food.
They, my mother and stephfather, used to go out to have nice days; on the beach, or go to a place where they could see or do nice the zoo...
I wasn't allowed to go also. But they woke me up and I have to make they're lunches and drinks for on the way.
I want to be loved, that they would like me, so one day I didn't go back to bed after they left, I started to clean the house.. Started in the front room. took the glascurtain down and washed it, ironed it, hang them back, take the dust of, hoovered. Now you need to know we had 14 dogs with long hair and 16 cats with long hair.. And a mother who didn't clean the house..You can imagine perhaps how this house looked like??!!!!
I cleaned the bedrooms and change the bedsheeds, Cleaned the kitchen and brushed a few dogs.
I ate 2 slises of bread and took a glass of milk during that day. I didn't wash the dishes..that is..a plate , a knife and a glass. but put it under the sinck in a cupboard.
When they entered the house again around 10 pm, my stephfather went straigt to the kitchen., opened the cupboard under the sinck, took out those few dishes and beated the hell out of me for leaving them instead of cleaning them and put them in the right place.
I was silently crying in the kitchen when my mother entered... She looked at me..hit me hard in the face and added;
So you have something to cry about...
The work I did was never mentioned and they acted that they never even noticed.
This is not a acceptional story..This is normal living in that household, that family.

Like you, and I told this before on this forum, I didn't know the smallest things, I had to ask people, ( and fortunatly there where people around who I dair to ask). Indeed as you say..On a certain moment you feel something, what and how to handdle it ,is a mystery.... Also how to dress, ho to behave around strainge people, how to introduce yourself to somebody new. How to use make up in a modest way......I can't even remember .... And honestly? It doesn't matter anymore.

I am complete human being now. And I dair to say that because of it all I know myself in a way that most people don't, I can look at my self and see what is wrong or where it could be better, to do things in a diffrent way. This seems to be rare. For me, and probably for more people on this forum , it's normal. That's what we learnd to do..
If somebody tells you constantly you are wrong, you learn to look and see if it is treu.
So observing yourself is a habbit.
Maybe even more importened; I can see what is right to do, that I am a good person who tries to life a live that is pure, I surround myself as good as possible with people who are worthy and try to be good human beings.
Everything I do, what I am is by MY choice, and mine alone.
Yes it took a long time, and yess there was a lot of pain and sadness. But what I tell everybody else,I also told myself. If I could survive this Hell..Than come on world. I can do it all!!

I am a therapist for over 22 years now and in my work I am succesfull.
This is my achiefment and mine alone....I have nobody to thank for it but myself.
I simply (!!!) used my inner strenght and believe me..we all have this inner's not for the's for all of us.
Take it with small steps at the time..If you want to ask me what a possible next step could be..please do. Jan knows I will offer this help to people here on this forum and said it's oke.


Love segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 01/23/08 05:27 AM

Hi Segaya

It was so painful to read your story and I canít imagine how hard it was to write. I am so full of admiration that you can live through such horrific events and come out the other side. I am even more amazed that you are such a well-rounded person now. We hear so many excuses that peopleís childhood turned them into the rotten adult they became. In your case you would have every reason to blame your childhood. You did the opposite and turned everything round and are now helping others.

It makes me feel pathetic for talking about the problems I have had, they are nothing compared to your experiences. I think we will all benefit from hearing how it is possible to overcome such atrocities and will look upon you as a great inspiration to change our circumstances if they are wrong. Also it shows us that it is important
not to blame ourselves for being at the mercy of others. Most people donít choose to be victims.

It just goes to show the ďnature V nurture debateĒ is alive and kicking! I have come to the conclusion after many years of research that if you are not born with the psychopathic gene then nothing that happens to you can make you a P. If you are born with the propensity to be a P then, yes, maybe that gene will be Ďswitched oní by circumstances. I think that is what would be classed as a sociopath not a psychopath.

I think everyone reading your story will now think Ď if Segaya can live through her ordeal then I can live through mine and move on tooí. I would imagine that the mental scars heal over but the marks are still there and will never go away.

I would like to thank you for being so open, your story will now become a point of reference for me. Every time I feel like complaining in future-I will think again!

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussion - 01/23/08 12:49 PM

Dear Segaya,

I am so very grateful that your shared your story. It's heart-breaking to imagine you as that little girl, so alone, trying so hard, doing her very best, to be so abused and, as you say, used up and thrown out. It's just so sad.

Your words have had a tremendous impact on me. They have really got under my skin. I felt as though you were right here, almost whispering in my ear. I was stunned, actually, and yet what you related was also very familiar to me. It's affected very me deeply and I am still taking it all in, but just wanted to touch base with you to acknowledge the gift of your story....and to let you know I would like to respond more fully in a while.
In the meantime, a very deep thank you Segaya.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 01/23/08 05:19 PM

Hi Jan and Sapphira,

I was moved deeply by both your responses, thank you
I want to say a whole lot of things but I don't have the time now.
There is one thing though that I have to react on now.......

Jan, you said;

"It makes me feel pathetic for talking about the problems I have had, they are nothing compared to your experiences"

I read this and feel pain .....There are two things I like to make clear about it.

I will tell a story;

We are here on this planet as human beings to learn our lives lessons. Every individual has his or her own lessons.
They...every human being, get they're own share of trouble to deal with. Some people are stronger than others or there talents are in a different area, we tend to say. Or we say if somebody tells something..My god this is more terrible than what I lived through.

Imagine this;
There is a person who is not very strong and can lift a weight of 5 pounds.
The problems this person stumbles onto have a weight of 5 pounds , so this person has to use all the strenght there is to lift it ..It's very heavy!!!

There is an other person , This person is a bit stronger and is able to lift a weight of 50 pounds. The problems this person stumbles onto have a weight of 50 pounds, so this person has to use all the strenght there is to lift it.....It's very heavy!!!

Now there is also a third person. This person is able to lift a weight of 500 pounds!
The problem this person stumbles on to have a weight of 500 pounds, so this person has to use all the stenght there is to lift it....It's very heavy!!!

Can you please tell me which person is having to most problems lifting there weight???

I think it's clear what I want to say....
It's all in who you are, what is your caracter and personallity, what are your talents, how do you use them ?I am convinsed that you can do other things I could never ever dream about doing!.

I think there has to be respect for everybodies story whatever simple it seems to be,but also however difficult it seems to be. We never know what makes a person do things, we can't feel what another person is feeling, what makes them do things, we can relate..but nothing more!!!

The second thing is, and this is happening a lot to me and no doubt to others....
In my live there are not very much people who know what has happend in my live. Yeah, they know it wasn't very nice... But what really happend,no I rarely tell and IF I tell than bits and pieces. The reason I can't tell it all?
It's because every single person react the same way...

It makes me feel pathetic for talking about the problems I have had, they are nothing compared to your experiences"

I understand..... I respect what you say.... and thank you for the recognition you give me...
There is another site to it...If so many people respond this way, you can probably imagine that I ( and more important;...the others!!)will shut down. I simply can't tell anything because I don't want people to shut down because of it!!!
It's not oke that I tell something and that would mean others don't want to tell they're stories because THEY think it's less painfull, important, hard, or whatever.....

EVERY body here is hurt, everybody here knows by living it how painfull this life with a p is. Everybody knows what we mean as we talk about shame, feeling of quilt, frustration and so on..There is no real difference.

I take myself as example but I mean this as a loving warning...Please don't shut people down . I know you are a great person and I do know what you mean to say. But please tell me you will keep recognizing your own valid story.
You know what;
There is no label on pain...there is no label on feeling alone, there is no label on feeling ashamed about other peoples habits,there is no label on emotions whatsoever. There are simply emotions!
No matter what situation started's there...and its there to deal with and to learn from it..
it is really as simple as that!

Somebody send me a card once with the following words. I will try to translate as good as possibble;

Before HE send his children to earth.
HE gave each of them a very carefull selected package of problems.

These, He promised smiling, are yours and yours alone. Nobody else can expirience the blessings these problems will give to you.

And you alone have the special talents en creative possibilyties to make these problems your servants.

Now, go down to your birth and forget.
Know I will love you without any limits.
The problems I give you are the symbol of that love.

The monument you make of your live with help of these problems will be a symbol of your love towards ME...

Your Father

Posted by: Mati

Re: General Discussion - 01/24/08 07:54 AM


Thanks for that post. It has spoken to me deeply.

It makes me feel pathetic for talking about the problems I have had, they are nothing compared to your experiences"

This has answered a lot of things for me.
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussion - 01/25/08 08:47 PM

Dear Segaya,

I've been sitting with your post for the last few days. So many thoughts and feelings after what you wrote, I'm not quite sure where to start. My mind feels like a slow moving picture of the milky way. To be honest I didn't really expect to find quite the degree of reflection that I have here. A case of be careful what you ask for - in the nicest possible way:) I really do want to communicate about this but I feel as though my words are sealed up inside so deeply. I spent a large part of the last 20 years a virtual recluse and my 'talking' was onto paper. It was the only way to protect myself, as I had no self protecting mechanisms, I suppose, other than withdrawl. It's quite an adjustment connecting with this forum. For me the only safe place was on my own. I need time to know that this isn't a dream, and that it is safe. I think that will help to start. It's so unlikely and is probably a bit paranoid but I'm terrified of putting details of my life out there. My inner world is ok because no one could identify me from that. Segaya, I just wanted to tell you that my mother was also keeper of the gate, and from a very young age, instead of keeping it closed and (other) predators out, she opened the gate up to them - and had lunch with them afterwards! I hear your story and I recognise the chamber, with the door open you've just stepped in through and the door in front that leads on but will remain closed, for now. Just one room in the haunted house. And maybe to share another room with someone else - "bits and pieces". Hearing from you has opened a light into very tight corners. In way I feel a bit embarrassed at feeling so affected, but I have been and I say that, not to put any load on you, but, why...let me think. Maybe because I kind of know where you were may been speaking from and it is important to me to respond to your words and respect for your experience, and I just find it hard to say anything much because what you said is very real to me, and I just need to absorb and deal with what it is touching on in me. Like you said, the grief, I suppose. I hope I'm making some sense here. Thank you for listening..
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 01/26/08 04:21 AM

Dear sapphira,

You make a lot of sense, I know exectly what you mean.
It's overwelming to hear words or read words 'out loud' that you are scared even to think about!
We have a saying here;'The punnishment of silence is for life.'
This can mean a lot of things.
What happend to us, and also to others here on this forum, can only contineu in silence and because of silence. The grip these events( people)have on us can also only go on as long as we stay in silence.
I promised myself AND all other vitctems to break the silence.

I don't tell things to hurt people, I want to wake them up. Take charge of your own life. Be the one yourself to safe you.
The only one who can stop abuse, in whatever form it comes, is YOU. I can't stop it for you or for anyone else. I can only try to help find the inner strenght that is needed to take action.

You say that you are terrified to tell these things...Nobody will ever forse you to tell them. Even more so...there is no need to tell the details, it's clear for people who recognize it and these people will only be the ones who know it because they lived the same way you did. Nobody else will notice!!!!
I don't mean saying this that walking on the street or doing some shopping people will know. I mean that as soon as you tell a little the good ones will pick up the signals and will respect you.
I work with victems for 22 years now. Only 1 time some woman told details because she thought she had to. After insuring her that it is oke if that's her choice but not neccessary she was very relieved. Know that if you want to share somethings it's oke.... But it's also oke if you don't..YOU are in charge now.

If somebody hit you hard on your arm there will be a bruse and after a week that mark is's not so very very impotant. The feelings it caused are importend. You start thinking about what you did wrong, why did that person hit you, 'Am I a bad person who deserves punishment'there will be shame and feeling of quilt.
These are the things that are important to deal with.

Take your time to get used to being heard.Take time to feel safe on this forum. Indeed bits and pieces..nothing to big, nothing to deep.... it will all come in time..It will find a way and life itself will bring solutions, you will see!

I want to say to you that in time you will find that you have a lot of self protecting mechanisms. It's oke.They are there for a purpose and they did well!
You are here and kicking live!!

You are a possitive person and that is because how well you did in the past. You prooved to be increddible strong, and you kept strong for all these years that you had to survive.
I don't see self-pitty in you writings ...I see somebody who finally found a place where people speak freely. This can be shocking at first, but it will give inside for you in others live and show you that you are not alone. And also time to read about what others write and how they dealed with surcomstances.

Take your, react. Tell your own things when YOU are readdy
Start with small, small things and wait how people respond. You will see that people will not attack you, that they will treat you as the adult, respectfull person you are.

And remember; all the energy you used in the past is still there and now you can use it to built yourself up to the level that YOU choose to be on. Nobody can stop you..Nobody will prevent this to happen if you don't want that!!!

If there is anything you want to talk about. If there are questions, ideas, If you want to shout, scream, cry,laugh or joke about. If you need motivation, stimulation or support ;We are here!!!!
Love Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 01/26/08 05:07 AM

Dear Sapphira and Segaya

I am so pleased that the two of you have come together. You share the same problem and it must be a huge relief for you Sapphira to know that somebody understands every word you write.
I can see what you are saying and Segaya is right, there is no need for you to spell out in words what is in your head, the right people understand.

It is your choice what you want to tell and what you would like to be left unsaid, you are in control. I, too, am amazed that you have come this far already.

I do look forward to following your progress as I can see you are an extremely strong person and will move forward at the pace you feel comfortable with.
It does help to write things down but there is no need to post these thoughts on the forum but you can use the forum to support you through the journey you have embarked on. Please feel free to get of any negativity if you need to, there will always be someone around to listen so you donít feel alone. There is nothing worse than lying awake at night with terrible things going round in your head and you feel like the only person in the world who is awake.

I feel you will become one of the people here who goes on to be a huge source of comfort to others.

My thoughts are with you both.
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussion - 01/26/08 05:48 PM

Dear Segaya and Jan,

I am very grateful for your words, thank you. And as it happened I had been awake in the middle of the night feeling like the proverbial, and got up to read the forum, and got your two posts. That was neat \:\)

Yes, it is at certain times overwhelming to hear said back what was for me. Obviously there are some differences, but there is a knowing of feeling that passes through the barrier of words and it is incredible after 43 years, to know truly, deeply, I'm not the only one to have known this. That is so freeing. I actually felt as though the great gapping hole beneath my feet just closed up - like I'd finally hit the bottom of the bucket - and now I can use that ground to bounce back up. It's time to move on some.

You say that the strength that got me through is still there to create the life I now want. Part of me seemed to believe that the energy was only there as a kind of crisis mechanism and that once I got some control then it would go. I think it may have to do with the feeling from so young that things can only go well for so long before something outrageous, often sadistic, would hit me from behind as it inevitably did. And it always seemed to come when things were 'good' - in my mind. Now I understand it more, it was really a case of when things were quiet and calm, or boring, in her mind. She needed her shot of stimulation, like lift off into space, from normality into this kind of hyperspace zone. It was like food to her. She was almost always incredibly calm (in an unnerving kind of way) except when she'd achieved lift off around her and she'd have this absolute glee come over her, a total delight from it all, and she'd head off all charged up and at peace with the world, while I tried to hold onto my sanity. This kind of behaviour seemed totally without logic, but I'm learning really there is - just not our logic.

Her work involved life and death emergencies, every day for many, many years. I have never, once, in my entire life seen her afraid. She was always in charge, literally and figuratively. Cool and calm. But it makes sense she could handle these types of situations...Actually, now I understand why I get extremely anxious, to the point to almost paranoid when things are going well because it's like - what's coming, something has to come? It's hard to come out of crisis mode because there's a different bunch of feelings to adjust to. And I see that in the past I probably self sabotaged my hard earned tranquility just to relieve some of the anxiety witha dose of chaos. But I'm starting to get a handle on that.

One thing I have got from reading the discussions so far, and especially from you Segara, what you were saying about the energy. I felt shattered to my core. Defeated, crawling through life. It seemed that after all the shattering, what else is there? Now I tell myself, yes, the mirror has shattered, now create a mosaic. I see that you have done this. Taken the shattered pieces and created anew. You have become a great support to others and I hope too to find a way to transform these experiences for the better. I was so uplifted when you said, Jan, you feel I could become a support to others, because inside I need to know it wasn't all in vain. Part of me is very determined about that. Right now my goal is to keep working through what reading the forum brings up for me, continuing to learn, writing heaps, as you say, and learning to cope with the calm and ensuing paranoia when it hits the high notes. My other goal is to keep pulling the two realities together. I know that I will find reality and grounding here.

Again, I just want you to know that I am extremely grateful for your site, for your encouragement and your real understanding.

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussion - 01/26/08 06:12 PM

Actually, there was something else you said Segaya, about being the one to save myself, that reminded me about the list of rules. I'd like to add "Being your own best friend and advocate - or learning how to become that". What we never had growing up with these people was a sense of someone being on our side - unconditionally and completely. I do know that it is hard to learn this when there may have been few, if any, people in our lives who were there to love us and to teach us how to do this, but it can be learned. We have to be that one person there for us, at least.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 01/26/08 06:45 PM

Do you have any idea Sapphira how possitive you 'sound'?
You make me a happy perso this way!!!!

You are right. It is hard to have any inside of who you are without the scenario of how things were before.
You know how to be a victem, You know how to survive,You know things others don't even have nightmares about.... But how to handle normal live. No problems in sight for a while... Scaring!!!!
What helped me a lot by getting back my feelings;
I was always a person who wants to help/save others. I had nothing that held me back.I was worthless so I was able to protect others even if that ment I was getting hurt myself because I wasn't importend anyway.
The way I learned to chance that behavior and to think a little better about myself ( and build that up during the years) was to project my problems onto somebody else..
In my mind there was a little girl, she looked a lot like me and was living the same life i ha dto live...
If I stumbled up to something and puss the feelings away I thought of that girl, who wasn't me, in my head. If I was to help her, what should I do next?
If there was trouble for me feeling what happpend because it was to hard to feel it again or 'to far away'....
I thought about the girl again . I was able to shed some tears...1 or 2 and than it stopped again. I pushed it away.
But in time I found that it really helped me.. I dealed with it all by pojecting things to somebody else that needed help and care and thought about how to solve they're problem or how to comfort that person. If I could feel it very clear I would take the feelig and make it my own again...
The dinial of my own pain and grief and lonelyness was overwelming but this way I could handle to make it 'real'to me and work with it.
Now after a lot of years I can feel my own feelings and don't need this projecting skill anymore.
it also teached me what the feelings were. i didn't know exacly the diffrence between the nuances of one feeling or the other. It is importend to know because if you can't name it, than you don't know how to handle it. People who can't, always seem to be angry because at least they know how to be angry.I didn't want to be an angry person the rest of my life so I had to sort out all emotions and how to act/express them.

I am so happy you found that you have a starting point now...This is the first day of the rest of your live...And everything is possible.....'
Love Segaya
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 02/06/08 11:48 AM

Hi, Segaya...I just read your sad story, and wanted to connect with you on it. Of course it broke my heart, but it made me remember things too. When I was in high school, I used to get up, and since I had no friends and wasn't allowed out, I would start cleaning too. I dusted and polished, washed the kitchen floor with a scrub mop and a metal bucket, swept up the kitchen, did the dishes, put everything away, went through the newspapers to go out, organized the mail, cleaned the bathroom, swept the hall, vacuumed and polished the floors. I wanted everything done by the time my mother came home, so she would walk into a glittering, clean, lovely home. Of course I was hoping for fulsome praise, as I needed to feel like I mattered. After hours of work, when everything was perfect, she and my brothers would usually arrive home at the same time. When my brothers came in, they would toss their coats and books and shoes anywhere, leave things all over, and mess up the place. They were both older than me, so they weren't children, and ignored my pleas to pick up. So when Mom came home, the effect was ruined. She would thank me for what I did, but it just didn't matter how hard I had worked and that they had spoiled it. She never criticized or scolded them, in reference to me. They could just ruin all the work I had done, as if it didn't matter.

My Psychopath sister (also older) shared a room with me, if you could call it that, and used to get up in the middle of the night and beat me. She finally got what she wanted by throwing out my bed and furniture (supposedly without my parents' knowing) so I had nowhere to sleep when I came home. I think they might have noticed that a bed was missing, but they chose to believe her. In order to keep her happy, my parents moved me into the front porch, put an iron bed frame in a corner of the radiator, behind the front door. No furniture, no privacy, no closet. Everytime someone came to the front door, there I was. And my beloved, darling pet cat, who loved me, was no longer allowed out there to sleep with me. That was the worst thing. They told me I could "still use the bedroom", but I wasn't allowed by Psychopath sister to get something out of the closet, or even look in the mirror. I wasn't allowed to look in the mirror. Can you even imagine what that did to me? And my parents kept pretending it wasn't happening. There was never an instance in my life where they said, " What about her? Do you think that's fair to her?" Never. Never.

When I went home for my father's funeral, my future husband came with me, having never met these people. I had to take him through my sister's room (formerly mine) to get to the attic where I was supposed to sleep. She demanded we not turn on the light, so he of course did, being afraid of nothing. After he saw her messy room, and watched me creep past the mirror, I took him up the stairs to the attic. He walked into the right side (there are no rooms), and saw an area filled with boxes and furniture and everything you keep in an attic. On the right side was the same iron bed with a bare mattress, covered with boxes. There wasn't even a path to the "bed". He had heard all about this but to be confronted with it was something else. He couldn't believe that no-one had even bothered to "make the bed" for me, much less clear out a space. He looked at me with tears in his eyes, and said, "you poor thing". Then he flew downstairs in a rage and started to make hotel reservations. He said it was either that or we'd be having a funeral for more family than my father the next day! He said the only reason he didn't kill my sister and slap my mother's face was because she was a recent widow. When we went to the first wake service, I had to ask permission to get dressed in my Psychopath sister's room, and then she complained about it. She told me to do my makeup in the bathroom or my mother's room and not to look in the mirror to do my hair. When we got to the service, my uncles and aunts were there. My uncles ignored me, and my aunt criticized me when I wanted Dad to have a flower; she said "you've had enough concessions". LIke what? Being allowed to come to the funeral? That one piece of cruelty broke my heart, and I felt like an unwanted selfish monster. I had brought pictures of the family to be put in with Dad; I showed them to my mother. Later I turned around, and my mother, brothers, and sister were at the casket, putting the pictures in without me. Like I wasn't even there, and I was the one who had brought them. It was so bad my future husband couldn't even attend one of the wakes, because he had to stay away from my family, lest he do them bodily harm. (He stayed home with my cat and they had a long talk. \:\) )

This is still continuing today. Nothing has changed. I asked my mother to let me make a copy of the only family album we have, for safety's sake, and to give everyone a copy. She has stalled me for ten years (I'm not exaggerating). This Xmas my Psychopath sister produced a copy for everyone. They just gave her the album to copy (badly), Never mentioned it to me. I asked to see my aunt's papers for genealogy purposes, and my mother gave them to my brother, who has hidden them away. Still tells me I can have them, yet it never happens. I asked to look at a box of my father's family papers, for genealogy, in 1987. It's one green metal box, sitting on his desk. "You'll get them, you'll get them", my mother says. In 1998, my husband sent me downstairs with instructions to take the box, copy the documents, and return them. So I did. In there was the only existing photograph of my great-grandfather in 1892, with geneaological information. They never knew I had copied them, and the box is still sitting there, untouched, and no-one has ever shown them to me. As far they know, I am still waiting. And apparently that's okay. It doesn't matter how I feel about it. The cruelty of making me watch while Psychopath sister hands out copies of the album in front of me, is beyond belief. I don't know if they enjoy it or they are oblivious because I don't count. The least they could have done is said, "I know you asked for this, but..". Not a single acknowledgment of how I feel or that I am there at all, and that sentence sums up my entire life.

I can't even get into the issue of "who gets what". So far, my mother has given my brother my father's collections, the family papers, and the house. The house. That she always said was for all of us. Never even told me, either. It just slipped out. Now, she wants me to come over and clean it for her, because my brother won't. Are these people insane? How do they keep dismissing me, as if I don't exist and have no feelings, over and over again? My husband says this is why, when he met me, I acted as if I don't exist. He watched me slip out of rooms, and have nothing to say, and never ask for anything, and he thought, "what happened to this girl?". Then, of course, he met them and realized it was worse than I ever said. When we moved in together, I used to ask him if I could "eat that piece of chicken", and things like that. He said, "Baby, you can eat anything, have anything, do anything you want." Then he started buying me Barbie dolls because he knew I never had them! Of course it helps keep me pink!

I am so sorry to everyone for having vented like this; I didn't realize it would be so long, but selfishly I have to say it helped me to write it, even through the tears. Segaya, I'm so sorry for what you went through. I wish I could send you sandwiches and milk and toys. (Do you like Barbies?) I'm so proud of you that you are a therapist, and bringing your pain to help others. I bet you are a wonderful counselor. I wish I had done something with my life, but I wasted it in suffering, although I have to admit that no-one can clean a floor like me. I'm as good as a navvy with a metal bucket and mop wringer. Some achievement, huh?

Stay well in pink, Girly friend...
love, Lady Crown
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 02/06/08 04:49 PM

Hi Lady Crown

Please don't apologise, you didn't vent. You gave a clear picture of what your life was like and if that helps you come to terms with that existance then this forum has been made worthwhile. As I read I could feel a chasm of hurt and emptiness and understand your need to please these people to get the love and respect you deserved. It's not your fault they were inadequate and shows that they didn't bring you down to their base level.

Your husband sounds wonderful, such a strong character so he must give you a great sense of security.
It appears you are making huge strides in moving forward and I hope it continues. I wish you and your husband will enjoy the peace of mind you find. I'm sure you will find some peace of mind because of the way you are dealing with your past. I'm full of admiration that you have gone through this and not become bitter and can talk about it in such a rational way.
You too, have acted as a therapist as you have shown how it's possible to get an insight into what happened and will be able to share that experience to help others.

It will be good to follow your progress and my best wishes to you and that man of yours! Has he got any brothers :)?

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 02/06/08 05:56 PM

My dear Pinky friend.....
I am so proud!
I knew we connected, but that it is on so many levels I couldn't know.
I see you as a little girl, feel what you are telling. And it makes me angry, Angry on all the people that hurt you. Angry at so many people who didn't see you or even recognized you are a person!!!

Still this is going on....grgrgrg

If they only would know what they miss out on!!!

Maybe what I am about to say won't sound nice and maybe you won't like it at all. But I can't help myself I have to ask these things...;

You say that your brother and your sister are Psychopath's...But what about the rest of your family...How is it possible that your parents let all these things happen?
Leave your child to sleep like this, no place to even dress or comb your hair!!!

I have 2 sons.... I couldn't do anything to change my Psychopath son..but I could certanly protect my other son!Did I always prevent things happeing to him...I guess not, but he knew he could come to me and tell me and then he would be protected.

Once he told me that he was in his bed sleeping, and woke up and saw his big brother ( 8 years older) standing next to him with a fist straight above him...
He never slept in his own room again. I put him on a bed in my room, the only bedroom with a lock. I locked the door and kept the key with me. ( in my bra, making certain my Psychopath son couldn't get it no matter what!). Later when I went to bed myself I would lock us inside.
In daytime my eldest son was dangerous too, so if my youngest son was in the kitchen ,I was too. If I had to go to the toilet my little one was with me.. as he has to go I was in front of the door watching him all times.I was buzy all day to protect him. That was the only thing left for me to do. I was to ill already to stand up to my Psychopath son most of the times. I let him go his own way. Do whatever you want and don't bother us!!

What I want to say is; How come that your parents let everything happen? And still it's like that....

Still everyone seems to tread you like a servend( hope I spell it right)...Why??
But the biggest question of all is;
Why do you let it happen. They can only boss you around as long as you let them....
They can only only hurt you , as long as you let them....

With other words..Girly girl; Stand UP.

I thank you for sharing this. It means a lot to me that so many people seem to have the seem experiences I had and came out as strong persons. I don't see this happening often. Most of the time I see people who stay a victem and won't have it any other way.
Here I bump into people who will chance it! Who are strong and willing to find a way to get out. Not a little bit out,... no, completely OUT.
It makes me so happy to read between the lines that you and also others, are such great women.
This way we are able to strengthen each other . It's beautiful to watch this and see it happening....

hwhaw I wanted to end this posting but I forget something.
No I don't play.
I can't play also. Don't know how to and my condition won't let me.
The bad thing is, and I noticed it with my own children but also with my grandchildren, I don't have any idea about toys and how to use them. I don't see the fun of it and always will buy the wrong things..terrible huh?
So I asked my ex- daughter in law, to help me. If one of the children's birhtdays is coming on, I will phone her and ask what to buy. This way I can do something nice for the little boys and realy surprise them...
So there is a problem less in my live... I feel ashamed for it, but at the same time i know why this is like it is...So no blame for me there..... But it's just not nice not to know these things.
I am so happy because of that , you are able to play and on top of that have a husband who understands the necessety of playing for you. It is realy importend to play... So my dear friend take your time..And next time you play I like you to invite me, and teach me how to oke... Then we will play together!
Love Segaya
Posted by: ruspr

Re: General Discussion - 02/15/08 11:17 AM

Hi. I'm new to this forum & hope that sharing my story will help me understand my brother & heal from all of the trauma he has caused. I have to say that I always knew somthing was off with him, but could never completely admit it to myself. There were times that he has been kind & it's always been hard to let that go. Anyway, here's his story. He has been in & out of jail most of his adult life (he's no in his 40's). He has always been a liar & thief, stealing from me & our mother and anyone else he could. He has been involved in 1 scam after another & feels no guilt over those he has hurt or the shame & pain he has caused in his family. His treatment of my mother has been deplorable. She has had problems in her own adult life, being hospitalized for depression for a year after a suicide attempt & then was an active alcoholic until after my brother & I were adults. I left home as soon as I could, but he stuck around & used & manipulated her as much as he could. It would take me all day to say the things he has done to her. He forced her to let him live at her home, along with his boyfriend, by threatening to tell her workplace that she had been arrested for drunk driving & was driving w/ a suspending license. He is gay, which means nothing, except for the fact that instead of dating men his own age, he in only interested in teenage boys that he can manipulate. He always lies about his age, by 10 years. He had one boyfriend try to kill him over a money dispute. In my heart of hearts, I wish he had succeeded. He is incredibly cruel & unfeeling. He cares for no one but himself. He got my mother involved with his latest scheme, which he is currently in jail for. He used her name to open phony bank accounts & when he was caught, she lost everything she had worked her whole life for (& honestly earned. As I said, I could go on forever what a horrible person he is, but what I truly want is to understand how someone can become like this. He truly feels no remorse for his actions, saying only that he can't let himself feel guilty b/c it will make it hard for him to move on. He feels no shame, no embarrassment, nothing. If I did a 10th of what he has, the guilt & shame would kill me. I need to find a way, to not forgive him, but to at least move on with my life. It makes me sick to think that we share the same blood. Any advice or insight would me much appreciated. Thank you
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 02/15/08 07:13 PM

Hello Ruspr,
First I want to welcome you on this forum and say we are always glad if somebody new has find the way. Not that this is a good reason to look for help, but if needed this help than it's a relieve to find it!

When I read your story I see a lot of things that will bother you a lot. Seeing, knowing about his actions has to be so difficult! Watching how he involves your mother in his sceems, and the younger boys in his live......ppfff. Do you live in the same area he is in? That would mean people know about him being your brother , but probably not that you are so different....

It will be hard for anybody to do anything about the fact that you need insight or advice how to move on.
Nobody else than you can do this. Only you can make the disicion to go on living. To be honest; This is what it is exactly ; YOUR desicion.... Change the focus in your live....oke, it's easier said than done.
It means understanding that there is nothing that will change him. Nothing can give him the information that is needed to become a normal human being. There is no treatment, no medicine, no cure...nothing.
Realizing this is very hard, life changing.. It's al about giving up hope for a future that will be better. It's about respect also..Respect because he is a grown man and has to make his own desicions, his own choices..No matter what you or anyone else will think of it.
It means you have to go on,That is; go on without the help and support of your brother.
This is hard, like you have to cut somebody lose ....But it's the only way.

I hope you are not in a big shock reading my answer. There is a lot to say about this subject and we will talk more if you wish.....But realizing this as soon as possible will help a lot with rizing above this troubled live..and will give you a head start.

Greets Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 02/16/08 02:49 AM

Hello Ruspr

You probably found this forum because you were looking for support and have already made some decisions to move forward. So I think you have already made the first few steps to move on. You have recognised who your brother is and what he has done and you havenít taken any blame for his actions.

Many people with experience like yours look to see if they were responsible for the other personís action and thereby take the blame.
You know that your brother will never change inside but may pretend he has to manipulate you so you need to be strong and ignore this if it happens. Hopefully you wonít have any contact with him in the future. No contact is vital if you want to move on. Many victims deal with this by treating the person as dead and for some a grieving process takes place. Grief for the loss of the person who might have been and the sort of brother you would have wanted and loved.

It really helps to write all your feelings down and if you feel comfortable posting it on the forum then that is another way forward. You can also read how other members have found ways to put the past behind, it never goes away but you have somewhere to Ďparkí your problems. There is great comfort knowing you are not alone with your experiences and others understand you.

There is always someone here to listen to you.

Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 02/27/08 10:25 AM

 Originally Posted By: Segaya

You say that your brother and your sister are Psychopath's...But what about the rest of your family...How is it possible that your parents let all these things happen?
Leave your child to sleep like this, no place to even dress or comb your hair!!!

What I want to say is; How come that your parents let everything happen? And still it's like that....

Still everyone seems to tread you like a servend( hope I spell it right)...Why??
But the biggest question of all is;
Why do you let it happen. They can only boss you around as long as you let them....
They can only only hurt you , as long as you let them....

With other words..Girly girl; Stand UP.

Love Segaya

Dear Segaya,

What happened was my parents let this happen because it was easier for them to make me pay the price and not have to deal with my sister hectoring and berating them. I was the one who always paid and went without. She did what she wanted, took what she wanted and they let her get away with it. They never did without, it was always me. And they let it happen. Not only that, they worked on convincing me how "lucky" I was to have this happen to me. That was the worst part, the mind games, the twisting of reality. They were the parents; they should have beaten her senseless rather than give in. But I guess it's easy to give in when you aren't the one paying the price, your youngest child is. That kind of selfishness and lack of feeling is too much.

As to why you let it happen, that kind of hurt my feelings. You have to understand; I was the youngest child. I had nothing. I had no one to help me. My brothers were indifferent, my parents gave in to her. My aunts and uncles blamed me because my mother told them it was me causing trouble. I had no one and nothing. I wasn't allowed out of the house, no one would take me on a simple errand, I was the only one who couldn't drive, I had no money. All I had was my cat, and everyday my brother would tell me that I would come home one day and the cat would be gone. He was going to drop him off on a highway somewhere. I used to run home from school in terror to get there first before he could do it.

So it was never an issue of "standing up". I did. I protested each time and each time was blamed for causing trouble. Causing trouble by wanting a room to sleep in, a bed, a mattress (yes, my brother took that too), permission to use a mirror, permission to walk through a room, to keep my pet in safety, to be allowed out, to get to go out, anywhere. I was the only one hit, the only one deprived, the only one blamed, the only one who had everything taken away. There was no possibility of standing up because I had no rights and no power. If your parents are in on depriving you of everything, you can do nothing about it. They are the ones who should have stood up to her and forbade it, but they did not.

And yes, it is still going on. As an adult, what I did was take anything I owned out of that house as soon as I could before they could get to it. My library, my pictures, my cat's bell. I didn't leave anything behind that mattered to me because I knew it would disappear. It's still going on with my mother giving the house and all its contents to my brother who hasn't worked a day in his life. It's still going on with my Psychopath sister desperately trying to get what she wants no matter what. It's still going on with my mother ignoring how I feel about anything and expecting me to be happy that she is giving everything to my worthless brother, who won't even make her a cup of tea.

But she wants me to come over and clean the house THEY live in. Yes, I am a servant in their eyes. I always have been. They want me to be. Somehow it satisfies them on some sick level if I come over and scrub and clean and work (by the way, I am disabled), and they sit around and "supervise" me. My brother has been living there for thirty years now and has never worked, doesn't clean, doesn't shop for food, doesn't cook, and has never contributed any money for utilities, food, gas, nothing. My mother is elderly and her health is suffering this year, and he should be taking over the errands, the cleaning, the cooking. Believe it or not, now that she is unable to drive and rather confined, she wants and expects ME to come over and clean, cook, food-shop, run her errands, take her wherever she wants to go, get the car serviced, pick things up, and everything else she can think of. I am disabled, and yet she is telling me how she wants me to come over and scrub the walls and clean the windows for spring cleaning, after I polish the furniture.

Years ago, I suffered two accidents that damaged and then re-damaged the vertebrae in my neck. I was at school at the time. When I called my family, they wouldn't even come to see how I was, and never arranged for me to have medical treatment. Consequently I have had cervicogenic headaches for the last two decades, with little warning as to what will set it off. I have limited mobility and constant pain. Yet, my mother wants me to scrub the walls with a mop, clean the floors, wash the woodwork, polish the furniture, move the furniture, go to the store, library, and anything else she can think of. Then, to top it off, she constantly tells me that she wants to spare my brother because he is "so tired" and "does so much". He won't even make her a cup of tea! The house is a mess and undusted, unswept, crowded, messy. Once I offered to come over for a couple of hours and dust and sweep her sitting room which she was always complaining about. She told me I had to wait until my brother thought it was okay to do on his "schedule". I go over to check on her and her medications and he is sleeping on the living room couch, which is apparently the only "schedule" he has.

The ironic part is that growing up I wasn't taken anywhere or taught to drive, so I get lost easily even now. My mother is mad at me because I am afraid to drive somewhere unfamiliar to take her where she wants to go. I never dreamed that when she was unable to do what she wants that she would actually expect me to pick up the pieces. But I should have known she would. She made me pay the price for what my Psychopath sister wanted, and now she expects me to do it with my brother. She won't make him do it, she expects and wants me to do it. I must be very stupid to not have seen that she would do this.

I have to issue a side note to Jan as well; no, my husband has no brothers, but I wish that he did so I could clone them all and send him out into the world. If you don't mind hearing a paen of praise, I am so so lucky to have him for a husband. He is the kindest man that there is, and more so, he is a man. He has come home from work to find me trying to cook dinner while crying with neck pain, and stops me, pets me, puts me on the couch with pain medication and tea, finishes cooking, or gets takeout. He protects me from my family and keeps a careful eye on what I do, keeping me from following old conditioning and doing something I shouldn't, or that they should. He absolutely forbids me to do anything for them resembling servitude and has a very clear head about what is appropriate and what is not. RIght now he is watching all this and holding his tongue, to keep any backlash from hitting me, but he is very brave and will tell them to their faces that they are cruel and selfish, and exactly what he will permit to go on and what not. He makes it very clear to everyone, especially the Psychopaths, that he is standing between them and me, and that he is very much aware of exactly what they are and what they are doing. It really is a sight to see. Consequently, they are very wary of him.

Coincidentally, he suffers from headaches too (migraines) and we have eked out a kind of system where we both cook and clean and shop and run errands, doing what the other one can't due to pain. Okay, he can't make a casserole, but you should see him with red meat!

He found me when I was frightened, lonely, and very ill, and he taught me everything. How to drive, how to shop, how to defend myself, how to spot traps that my family set, how to differentiate reasonable requests from exploitative ones, how to stay one step ahead of the Psychopaths. He taught me that my feelings mattered, that I was worthy of affection and respect. He taught me how to protect myself, and most of all, to put myself into the equation, that it mattered what happened to me and how I felt. He taught me to love only the people who deserved and returned it, and not to waste time on the others. He taught me standards of treatment and behavior, and that people who loved me would not have done the things they did. Of course, I loved him before any of this happened, because he was so cool and fun and smart, but he's been everything good to me, things that I had never dreamed of.

Segaya, I wanted to put in a picture of a doll, but I can't paste an image. Rats! I'm sorry that this turned out to be so long; I had a minor crisis the other day where my Psychopath sister called me and upset me very much. I told my husband I don't even want to hear her voice for a while, and he said "you can't", so he is going to step in to give me a break. I wish I knew what it was like to be fearless like is so admirable to watch. I don't really play with my dolls (okay, I do brush Barbie's hair), but I mostly have the collectible ones for the pretty dresses and outfits. My husband got me Barbies because he knew I had never had them, so the only way to "play" is just start out by buying yourself a pretty one (that's why I wanted to send you the picture) and start by just enjoying having it. It's yours, it belongs to you, and mirrors a good feeling about yourself, that you are pretty and girly and worthwhile. Barbie represents all of that to a girl of any age, (despite the current trend to denigrate Barbie dolls). That's why the collector dolls are so popular. First you admire the outfit, then enjoy owning her, then you start to feel a bit more girly and pretty. Then you buy the pink label (inexpensive) ones so that you can brush the hair! Everytime I look at Barbie Princess of England (fabulous pink velvet dress!) or Barbie career Pet Doctor, I feel happy and prettier. It's a long long road back from being made to feel ugly and stupid and boring; if a little plastic doll in a great dress helps with that, let's go shopping!

Sorry again to everyone that this was so long...stay well in pink, Segaya girl! Love, Lady Crown
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 02/27/08 04:11 PM

Dear Lady Crown,
My heart breaks.......
You really think for one moment that I wanted to make you responsable for what happend to you as a child???????????????
Ofcourse not!!!!
I think you read some of my own experiences and there is again this 'strange' simmalarity;
You wrote; 'it was easier for them to make me pay the price'
As my mother use to say.. 'as long as he does it to you he will leave me alone.....'
So please take it from me.I will never ever blame a child...
I read your story before and it made me angry...Not angry at you... You are my girly pink way I will be ever angry at you...It made me angry about what they did to you..... How is this possible..again...and I said it to Sapphira also... it's making me speachless..( and take it from me...that says a lot!!!)

I just can't stand it...I see it happening before my eyes ..This little innocent girl that wants to be loved..simple..nothing big, nothing much , nothing spectacular...just soms kind attention.....This simple thing is not only refused..... on top of it all....grgrgrgrgrgrgr and again it makes me so helplessly angry

I know too well that we didn't learn the normal skills to live in this world..and nobody understands it.. They don't see the struggle because we are afraid to show it, talk about it, or even ask for help..People will laugh about it behind our backs.....So why hide... stay indoors, don't make contact with other people and if we can't stop the contact we stay in the back of things.......

It's so little we needed, so little we asked for..... even the normal things seem to much for us we didn't even think of asking for that!!!

I indeed said those things for the NOW. And again not because I am angry or something like that at you... I am agry because they boss my girly pink girlfiend around..are they grazy!!!!
That's why I said..stand up for yourself.. Let your husband teach you well..learn please learn....You are worth it... YOU are the most importand person in your live..I said it before and I will repeat myself a million times to you if neccessary....YOU deside what you do or don't do. Take life in you own hands and stand up, take charge, make the right choices for YOU. And yess, let you husband help you ( can I order a clone now?)

I am so sorry to hear that you are disabled also..( we all seem to be, don't you think so)
I know people with the same thing you have and I know there is a lot of pain involved...
Sometimes I get somebody who asks me for help and I will always try to help them heal but I can never promisse anything. What always does happen is that there is more relaxation therefor less tension, less dizyness, and also less pain....
I am really sorry for you....But I say it's the more a reason for you to take care of yourself..They don't feel your pain, so why should it stop them ???? It's your pain so you have to stop this to go on...I's easier said than done..But don't blame me for saying this over and over again..One day you will really hear what I said and all the times before that is the work that needs to be done to let that happen....
I will not get tiered to tell this...I will not get tiered to hear all the things you want to share and again...I won't get angry at you..Why..there isn't anything that you do wrong, or have to defent yourself for... What i see from you is all in love and kindness.. You are a wonderfull person and who knows..maybe one day we will meet.. in spirit we met already... that;s for sure.
Love and always with you AND in pink!!!

(Hope this; me being angry with you....or not understand you.. is out of the way now)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 02/27/08 04:25 PM

Hi Lady Crown

That husband of yours sounds like heaven on legs! You are so lucky to have that kind of support and hopefully this forum will help some members that donít have that additional back up. Itís great to hear of something so positive.

Can I be honest and say something you might not want to hear?
Why do you have anything to do with these people that treat you so badly, itís not good for you? You are the most important person in this scenario.
I get the feeling itís because you are too kind and donít want to hurt anyone but you deserve so much better than their despicable treatment. This is the hardest thing to sayÖ..but are you hoping that maybe things will be put right and you will get the genuine apologies that should be forthcoming? Sometimes we just have to let go of the things we really wish would happen because I donít think these people will give you what you need to change the past.

I donít usually tell people what to do BUT if I were you I would just give your husband all your time and thoughts and not give your family a minute of it. Also give yourself a lot of attention-my goodness you deserve it!

You donít have to be the dutiful daughter when brother is there to help your parents.

I think you have found a great therapy that really works for you so maybe we all need to think about what works for us. I really admire you for being so open about it, itís so refreshing.

It may be difficult for you but I would really be interested in seeing your husband post on the forum to see how he feels about your situation. He is one in a million and could offer some insight in how to help others to cope with such trauma.

I donít feel I have to worry about your future as you have such a great insight into what has happened in the past and such a wonderful support structure to keep you moving forward.

Just out of interest-is your husband in a Ďcaringí profession?

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 02/27/08 10:29 PM

Dear Lady Crown, Segaya, Jan,

When I read your post I can feel that you are such a caring and giving person. You give of yourself with such a high standard. It's amazing how pure a heart can be amongst such empty ones. The thing is we are taught to be so selfless. But more than that, perhaps we almost take on the responsabiity to make up for the goodness that isn't shown us. Instead of being 50/50, it becomes 95/5. Certainly in part because it's convenient for them to have us believe that, and perhaps because they take advantage of our good and/or innocent natures. What child doesn't want to please it's mother. What child at risk doesn't strive even harder to appease, please and otherwise try to ensure some peace. But as you say, it is very deep and very thorough conditioning to be selfless, to be a servant, to give of oneself without return. To 'give' of our SELF...becomes to 'give up' our self. What self?! Our sense of self is as the servant, without, not entitled, unloved and unlovable, because we weren't allowed to discover any other way to be our SELF. OUR self, it should be.

When I go over this dicussion, as I have been all day, I keep thinking about when we hit those limits inside ourselves. We push ahead, go so far, then hello again, a new one. I feel - I know -I have come so very far, and then I meet another. I dreamed a while ago - actually I've had this dream twice since I started being with myself in the big empty - about a dog that sits in a cage. The door is open, but she can't get herself to leave. She can't even get herself to want to leave. All instinct to RUN!! and get the hell out of there, it's all gone. All that push and strain and on the edge of the world to get out. All that feels like another person. I'm out. And now I dream of this. I pat her. I hold her. I even carried her out. But she's still limp in my arms.

When I think about it, I realise that my 'out' today is not the same 'out' of 20 years ago, or 5 years ago. 20 Years ago my out what a very physical and immediate one. Now my 'out' feels to me, in some ways, perhaps like yours??...I can't reach out for myself. I know I ought to, and there are periods when I can, but there is a part of me, much like the dog, so close to freedom, who just can't reach out, or take herself out to get it. Who is stopping her having what she wants now? What she is entitled to have and ought to grab? There is no longer a chain. She's no longer a dependant puppy, the door isn't even locked anymore. There's no one else to face now, just herself. For me now, just me.

After 15 years with the same old computer - that I work from 5 hours every day - I finally decided to 'treat' myself. I bought a new one, and a new printer. Two months later and I've still got the old one on the kitchen table because I haven't got the new one up and running properly. The new printer I bought is out of the box but I can't get myself to set it up. Just one of so many examples. Others so much smaller, more everyday. In some ways I almost have to laugh at myself, it sounds so...something! I just can't reach out and take what I know I deserve, what I know I am entitled to. Because on another level I just don't feel I deserve it. By that I mean it just doesn't feel like part of who I think I am. In my mind I'm the one who always went without. I'm so deeply terrified that if I get anything it will somehow just be taken from me, so don't think for a moment I 'have' something.

It's very hard because sometimes I don't know how to reconcile the difference. I just try to tell myself that it's new and I have to fight to do for myself even though inside it just doesn't feel 'me' or that I am entitled. One thing to lift the dog out of the cage. Another thing for her to get up and run around and herself enjoy the freedom. But I trust that it will come.

What strikes me over and over is the lack of what I would call maternal instinct they showed. Not protecting their babies, not guarding their space and sanctity. Instead letting the wolves in the door, flaunting their little ones, allowing injustices. And the whole family seemed to be in on it. Like you, I was the selected one, who got all the abuse in private, but also the scapegoat for the whole family. My grandmother told me she was actually afraid of my mother, really afraid. She knew that the massive temper tantrums she had as a child just wasn't normal. She knew something wasn't straight and she used to say, well, as least it makes her good at her job. But whenever I'd run away and call her for help, she'd just send me right on back. As a teenager I asked her why she tolerated the abuses and never stood up to her on my behalf when she knew what was going on. Her reply was that no matter what, she was her daughter and her loyalty would always be with her. I felt so betrayed by her, because she knew. She had a conscience - or at least I thought she did...hey, maybe I was wrong there. But it amazes me how dozens of people who all knew what she was like, sat back and let it happen. I know a lot of people were very intimidated by her. Perhaps I underestimate how it may have been for someone to stand up to her, especially when she was younger and such a formidable presence. Maybe it has to do with fear? And the knowing that there had to be some one who was going to cop it. And when that person was no longer available it would be someone else. Better you than me, because if not you then it might be me. I guess, at the end, I was her responsibility, and they didn't want to take that on.

There is a dream I've has since a child and what you have been saying today reminds me. (Sorry, this is all over the place. I hope it makes some sense!) There is a mother at the top of a flight of stairs, holdng a very little baby. Then suddenly she just lets the baby go. For no apparent reason. The mother doesn't flinch. She just stands at the top of the stairs and watches as the tiny the bottom. It is so desperately painful to watch. As she falls my heart is already breaking. When I get my legs to move I rush to the baby. How could she not be dead? I get to the baby. She's not dead, but she's not a baby either, she's a doll. She's become a doll. I pick her up. I hold her tight. The pain of breaking isn't so unbearable and not so overwhelming as it would have been. This I can carry. This I can hold and keep going with. Any other way I could not.

I realise theres no connection really with what you were saying about the dolls, with what's been said, but it makes me feel a lot when I read what you posted - thank you.
Love, Sapphira
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 02/28/08 03:39 PM

Hi Jan, Lady Crown And Sappirha
Jan, I think we say the same things at almost the same time... Only you have more tact than I have!
As usually I get ahead of things..
It is indeed important I think to find out why we still keep doing things we know in our hearts is not good for us! Do we really think the Psychopath's will change who they are? Do we really still search for there approval( ooo this language thing!!!)and love?
What keeps us from taking care of ourselves.... Take the advice of others who understand and want to help....
At the end of the day the only thing we have to do is stop what we are doing.....Just turn 180 degrees and go our own way....
If only it was this simple....
I am so happy with all the response on the postings..
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 02/28/08 04:15 PM

Hai all,

Sapphira what you write is so clear.
The image you give about the dream you had of the dog is so heartwarming.
I do think you know that the dog is you..A dog is loyal, like you, One can kick it and still it comes back to lick one's hand...You can put the dog in a cave and still it will be happy to see the one who is giving the punishment.
Take time... At the start, beginning of this, you will do all those things with your head. And later, with practise, you will find that you are doing it from the heart. with love.
Take the dog out every time you visit the big empty ( that's not so empty anymore already now!!!)
Let the dog get used to it's freedom bit by bit... At first he will stay close to you and at one moment he will snif around while sitting on your lap...than it will stay close to you ,even touching you while drinking some water,and then he will get a little bit further..bit by bit he will learn to know what freedom means.. Once knowing a little bit you will notice the dog is learning fast!!!

The same thing with your story about the baby.... How visual you discribe this ....
You are the baby you are catching!!!
You aren't a doll , but you are used like one....Like you didn't even matter. Same thing with Lady Crown, myself and so many many others.
I think this is exactly what Jan and I keep saying; Take care of yourself..YOU are the most important person in your live..... And look at those 2 dreams! you are!!..But be patient and kind to yourself..that's part of learning isn't it!
I remember how this fase in live feels, How difficult it was for me...Indeed we are like babies.
What do we really know...What of this knowledge is real and what is valse.
We are like baby's and we do have matternal feelings we can use to take care of that baby inside..( the little girl in the big empty space is the same thing...)We are patient to teach and let it explore herself ( the baby inside)
This has a very good side to it!!
We are baby's...this means we can start from the beginning with everything!!! We can make this life into something wonderfull.....
tell me..How many others can do this? Have the knowledge we have, have the skills we have....Have so much love and patience and are so open for all the good there is??? You are so right;...Almost nobody.....

Other people don't even know they are missing out....And take it from me... They also suffer in they're own way!!!( or think they do)

As I read about your new computer...I remembered again....
What I did was; I just did it with my head... Not feeling that it was mine...or even that I deserved it... I started to use it and slowly I got used to it... And much later I started to like it and after that I coul be happy with it... First it's only in the head, mechanical...and in time it goes down to the level of feeling... This is really a learning thing...It's not 'normal'( What is for us??)It doesn't come natural. Even those things have to be learned......
But... I am so happy you bought the computer..It's a real big step in the right direction!!! Be proud!!!! And if it's to early to feelproud of it, I will be proud for both of us...
For you till you can feel it yourself, for me..because I know that if one of us makes a step in the right direction more of us will follow, but most of all because there is a connection between us and I know where you are comming from.. GO GIRLLLL!!

I am again surprised of the skills we have or develope to cope with all our problems...
You with your dreams and so... Lady Crown with her dolls..It gave me some inside of my own skills I used in the passed. Forinstance the image of the little girl and asking myself what she would need.... I see a simmalarity again but I can't put my finger on it yet!
Maybe one of you can???
Lots of love, Segaya
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 02/29/08 03:57 PM

Dear Segaya, Jan, and Sapphira,

Segaya! Please, please please don't think YOU hurt my feelings! I didn't express that well at all; your post brought up so many memories and the pain was incredible! But it helped so much! It was amazing...after I wrote the post, I read it back and was appalled at what I was discussing...appalled that all those things (and they are only a few) actually took place! It was almost as if I couldn't connect with the feelings until I had written them out to you. I was really shocked at what I started remembering, and in tears too. So please, I never meant that YOU had hurt me! You are my pink girly friend, and I love that we can talk to each other and say anything! Forgive me for writing poorly.

Jan, I don't know what to say about why I am around them. I have nothing to do with my Psychopath sister and brother, and the other one lives across the country, thank God, but I do see my mother. She is elderly and frail and suffering, and I don't have the heart to punish her or pay her back for what she has done. I know that makes me the Chump Of The Year, but it's not in my nature and I like myself this way. So I limit the contact, do what I can to make her comfortable but under my terms, not hers. Sometimes, because of her, the other two are there, and I have as little to do with them as possible. I am civil, but that's it. My mother is unable to accept what they are like, or she is just like them...I haven't decided yet. EIther way, I am not going to force the issue on her in her 80s. If she was going to accept it, she would have years ago, and I lack the necessary cruelty. Yes, I know, I'm a major loser, but I have chosen to not be like them. I don't regret not punishing her; the other two are fair game, though.

Segaya and Sapphira,

Remember earlier when I posted about them giving my Psychopath sister the only family album to copy? I had to look through it for something, and guess what I saw? Me, with my hair chopped off. The first day of kindergarten, with what looks like a hedge trimmer haircut. The first day of grade school was even worse. I remember once my mother cutting my hair and I looked in the mirror and it was just touching the TOP of my ears! I remember crying and putting my hands over my ears, and saying, "I can't go to school like this!" My brothers and sister all had curly hair, beautiful curly hair. I came along, the last child, with "straight gray hair" according to my mother. I had a little wave, but nothing else. So I was always told how awful my hair was, and my mother said she cut it off because I "cried when she combed it". I don't believe that. My sister had long tubular curls down her back. . So I'm looking at these pictures, and there are these awful crooked chops, with half the bangs missing, and pieces all over the place. All of the pictures.

Wait, it gets worse.

Then I started noticing something clothes. I keep seeing these pictures where I am in boy's pajamas, and my Psychopath sister is in floral nightgowns. Later I am in hand-me-downs brothers! What is going on here? I was only a year younger than the Psychopath sister, so if I am in hand-me-downs, they should be from my sister. It was pretty horrifying to look at this and see a pattern. I haven't figured it out yet. Once my mother gave me a Christmas gift, saying, "I know you like antiques". I opened it and it was a old, dirty nightgown from the Salvation Army, from the 1960s. It was some poor deceased elderly woman's clothes, and she bought it and wrapped it for me. God rest that unknown woman's soul, but I threw it out immediately, and told my mother to never buy me anything again. Since then I have picked my gift or taken money. My poor husband thought he had seen everything, but he says that gave him nightmares, it was so hateful and creepy.

I know my mother always said she wanted a girl, so maybe when she got my sister, she was done, and then I came along unfortunately. The funny part is, if there can be a funny part, is that I'm the girly one and my sister isn't. She's the sporty type. I love the pink, the fluff, the polish, the skirts, (I love skirts) all of the pretty sparkly stuff. Always have, which is why it hurt so much that I had no hair and wasn't allowed to have pink (because my sister wanted it). My mother always bought me blue. Ugh. If I could find a tiara, I would wear it. So the second I got out of the house, I started growing my hair.

Now, on that subject...

I read what you both wrote about your hair and it really touched me. I never thought there was a pattern to this, about the mirror and the hair, and being a girl. I always thought it was just me because I was just so plain and ugly and would never have a date or a boyfriend, and my Psychopath sister was so "normal", etc., etc. She used to hide her makeup so I wouldn't know what it was or how to buy it. Sapphira, what you said about the mirror really hit me. My husband took me shopping once when we were first together. He knew I needed a sweater. He gave me some money, left me in the department, and went off to look at some coat or something, and said "I'll meet you in ten minutes". He walked away, and a few minutes later, thought he hadn't given me enough money and came back. To his horror, I was standing in the same place, hiding behind a pillar, in tears, because I didn't know what to do or how to shop. He has never gotten over that, believe me.

I have to stop this the cat just threw up, so I'm sorry for cutting this short (no pun intended). I will come back tonight if I can and finish. Sorry about the abrupt ending.

Love, Lady Crown.

Segaya, this is the picture I wanted to show you. Isn't she lovely?
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 02/29/08 05:06 PM

Dear Segaya, Jan, Sapphira,

Okay, the cat is fine. The carpet's not so good, though. \:\)

My husband wants to take advantage of your kind invitation and post. I will finish up on the hair thing later.

Greetings, ladies. First, I would like to thank you for having this forum, it has done my wife a world of good and I am pleased that she has nice, decent outside contacts like yourselves. Thank you for your compliments, but I feel compelled to state that I am not perfect. I come from an abusive family and background issues as well, which I don't let affect my caring nature. To the women out there, there are men like me who will dry the tears, have the shoulder, give you what you need. Unfortunately, it seems to be rare, but we are out there. You must believe in yourselves, acknowledge the damage that has been done to you, and cherish yourselves, because you deserve it.

To the ladies' partners; there are times when you wish to take the pain away, and take it onto yourself, and it is frustrating that you can't, especially when the psychopaths are still at it. Don't let that frustration keep you from doing every little thing you can, which may seem little to you, because it will make a world of difference to her. It's not about being special or unusual, but it is all about loving the person for who they are, the pain they have endured, the pain they are going through, and holding their hand on the road to where they want and need to be. Best wishes and luck to all of you; you have amazing courage to take part in this forum. Remember, it's not about my being special, it's about being human.

"Lord Crown"

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 02/29/08 07:02 PM

My lovely pinky girlfriend!!!
Let me start with...ppffff I am so relieved... Let's make a deal oke.....Let us make a pact; We will never ever think again that one of us is out to hurt the matter what language difficulty's there may be.. We will clear them up and get them out of the way....And we asume from now on automatacaly that it's oke .

Second... Princes...Yes you are LADY Crown indeed... I love the picture of the doll... the casttle behind it is my private resedence!! The collors of the dress are majestic!!!
The gold and the red in combination said it all..... I will print it out, put it in a frame and every time I look at it, It will remember me of you and of the connection we made , even being so far apart. When times will be difficult I know you are there, somewere in this world, knowing me as I know you, sharing, caring, loving!

Again I want to share, tell in words that it is so very special for me to have met you. Not knowing how you look like, but in my heart it seems so clear.The connection we made is wonderful. Now, more recent there is Sapphira, And i knew in my heart she wil be part of this connection too... We are like the same person... Living from the same well.....
Since I have met you I never felt alone anymore...
I know I said this before, and it is true..I always knew I wasn't alone..never felt alone, but that is on a different level..In this ( material)world I felt incredible alone..That has changed.You and Sapphira made me a happy person ................

We have to put facts in to words. The wonder of it is, that by doing so there is somebody ( wauw, more than one even!!) who understands exactly what is ment!!!!!This kind of understanding is so rare.... Thank you both!!!!

You gave my heart peace by writing why you are doing still what you are doing....
You tell; Yes i am a major looser.....
And you used another term that I don't know what it means, but I suspect it not to be a nice word....
You are not!!
I admire what you are doing now...Maybe WE were the ones being wrong!!
Not knowing the why of it, made us presume something else...But let me speak for myself;
I thought ( shame on me!!) that you were still doing what they want because you are so used to it. That you did it because of low selfesteem etc.....
The opposit is treu!!!
Thank you for that insight you gave me.
You really have to be a LADY from deep within to be able to be such a great person.
You know why you are doing it...And as I take it from you ( and you are the only one who knows this) it's for all the good reasons.
You are so big a person that you are able to get small. To serve on your terms, Not to carry the hate towards them but be yourself and answer to who you are. I don't know if I can make clear what I mean....
Let me try to put it different to make clear what I mean;
A big heart is needed to do what you are doing. Thinking of it.. What If my family was living around me...Would I be brave enough to do what you do....
Pppff no way!!!
Could I stay so close to who I am that I could stand all what happend and still have kindness enough to put it aside and do what MY heart tells me to do...
Take it from me..I wouldn't....
I admire who you are and what you are..despite what people teached you, or didn't...You are a lady indeed!In dutch we have an expression... don't think I can translate it but I will try and I do think you will understand what I mean;
I Bow my body and take of my hat for you ....
Thank you for this great lesson of live and thank you for taking the time to teach me ( I think I can savely say; Teach US)

I have to admite something else;
My heart jumped when you tell about what happend to you with your hair and clothes.
I knew You share this with us ... Ofcourse my heart didn't jump because it made me way, It jumped because again on this level I keep talking about, there is this connection....
You know what I had to life through and what Sapphira had too... I know what you had to live through and I am sure Saphira knows it too.. We, you and me know what Sapphira means when she is talking about all things that happend.
No matter how many oceans there are in this world..This , what is happening here on this forum is so very special and so exeptional...wauwie.......
I want to give you a picture of a doll too..The titel of it says it all....
You are a lady; you are the queen of hearts.....
With lots of love, Segaya

Whwhawhhah I just read a bit about alice in wonderland.... I DON"T mean you are THAT queen of hearts... Leave the farytale and go with only the titel please hwhwhawha...
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 02/29/08 07:18 PM

HAi Lord Crown.....
I have a big smile on my face...And I can't get it off......
Thank you for taking the time to write to us.....
We now already you are a human being.....Your queen is, so you have to be!!!!

We are so happy that you are supporting our pinky friend, and she really is a good rolmodel for us as I wrote to her just now!!!
As she is such a great person there had to be a great husband for her in this world.
I am sorry you are also from a abusive background, But I think you will agree with me;..It makes us pretty smart!!!
For me....I tried to have a good relationship serveral times and didn't succeed. It doesn't matter who's fauld that is or was...What matters now is that I discovered that I don't need a man to lean on... I life my live on my own and I am so happy doing so..This goes for me..I realize this is not for everybody. We are all different aren't we.
For now this is oke... This is more than oke for me....

It makes me happy when I see people that have good relationships and are so happy together. Please never take it for granted. It's so rare and so special if it's happening!
It's sometimes hard labor and sometimes you will get tiered of it, but it's worth hanging in and after bad times you will be so happy and see that you will even be closer again.
Take care of yourself and of my pinky girlfriend and , please, keep teaching her that she is so special!
And at moments that she can't believe you... send her to this forum..we will tell her also and back you up!!!
With love Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 02/29/08 07:20 PM

To all.....
Can't we make an agreement??
hwhawh I have a great idear;
You all learn dutch and make it a bit easier for me to express myself..
We could change the language every so many months so there is equal time for everybody to be creative in their own language!!!
I say Yeah!!!!!
Laughing Segaya
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 03/01/08 01:50 PM

Dear Segaya,

I love that picture! Thank you, she is so pretty! I was so happy to read your answer and when you said you liked the picture and were going to frame it, I was so pleased! Thank you so much. I'm going to save this one that you sent me as well, and I will think of you when I look at it.

This is what "chump" means:

"een persoon die lichtgelovig en gemakkelijk is voordeel te halen uit"

It was really more of a joke than serious, because they try to take advantage of me, and sometimes it is so tiring staying two steps ahead of them. But I have to tell you, I was so complimented by what you wrote about being big-hearted. I really appreciated that. It made me feel wonderful. I liked what you said about our speaking Dutch. I wish I could speak another language. You do so wonderfully well expressing yourself and you are very fluent.

I only have a short time today to be on, so I wanted to tell you about something. You mentioned trying to grow out your hair, as we both are. I don't know how long your hair is or if it is layered or all one length. However, here is a great way to trim it yourself!

Het deel uw haar in het midden, en kamt rechtstreeks elke kant onderaan. Neem greep van ťťn kant met twee vingers, zoals een schaar, en glijd uw hand neer bijna aan het eind. Einde daar. Daar zou over een duim of twee van einden tussen uw vingers moeten zijn. nu, tip u hoofdrug . U zult de eindentrekkracht door uw vingers voelen. Breng uw hoofd terug naar normaal. Dit zal zelfs uit de einden, en u kunt rechtstreeks overdwars met een schaar in orde maken. Herhaal op de overkant.

Het tweede ding is, en dit gaat een weinig bizar klinkenÖ het deed ook aan me, tot ik het probeerde. Het heeft Voorwaarde slechts geroepen, (Co) en wat u doet is u wast uw haar met veredelingsmiddel in plaats van shampoo. Ik gebruikte altijd shampoo, natuurlijk, en dacht dit enkel onhygiŽnisch was. Maar ik probeerde het. Het veredelingsmiddel maakt net zo goed schoon als shampoo, piepende schoon, en het heeft de zelfde ingrediŽnten, maar heeft het niet het zeepadditief dat stroken uw haar. Mijn haar is zacht en schoon en veel aardiger, met minder luchtige stukken geweest. Plus het van mijn sleutelbeen aan het midden van mijn rug in ongeveer veertien maanden is gegroeid, en ik denk die ben omdat er minder breuk zonder de shampoo is. Zo is wat ik nu doe was met veredelingsmiddel, laat het 's nachts, altijd een kam van de bodem van het haar, niet de bovenkant drogen en gebruiken.

And in case that didn't come out right...

Part your hair in the middle, and comb each side down straight. Take hold of one side with two fingers, like a scissor, and slide your hand down almost to the end. Stop there. There should be about an inch or two of ends between your fingers. Now, tip you head back. You will feel the ends pull a bit through your fingers. Bring your head back to normal. This will even out the ends, and you can trim straight across with a scissor. Repeat on the other side.

The second thing is, and this is going to sound a little did to me too, until I tried it. It's called Condition Only, (CO) and what you do is you wash your hair with conditioner instead of shampoo. I always used shampoo, of course, and thought this was just unhygienic. But, I tried it. The conditioner cleans just as well as shampoo, squeaky clean, and it has the same ingredients, except it doesn't have the soap additive that strips your hair. My hair has been soft and clean and much nicer, with less flyaway pieces. Plus it has grown from my collarbone to the middle of my back in about fourteen months, and I think that's because there is less breakage without the shampoo. So what I do now is wash with conditioner, let it dry overnight, and always use a comb from the bottom of the hair, not the top.

I have to go now, but I wanted to give you some girly stuff. I'll be back pretty soon, so take care. Sorry I have to rush off. Love, Lady Crown
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/01/08 05:24 PM

My dear friend,
I am so surprised; here you are DUTCH.... wonderfullll
I was happy you added the english part as well, with the both together it was very clear.

I was supprised , never heard of this way of washing the hair...I will start tomorrow trying it. I look forward to it.. 14 months only for so much growth????? ingradible...
My hair didn't want to grow until I got my diagnoses of the heart condition and the medicines...
Just before that i cut it off... It looked terrible. It was like burned because my health was so very poor.
Since than, almost 10 years went by and now my hair is also on the middle of my back...

I can't cut it myself because its cut in a round way... hwahwh I don't think this way of saying will make any sense;... It is shorter on the sides and in the middle of my back it's longer. There is not a hugh difference it just seemed nicer that way...The shorter bits are approxematly just on the level of the elbow. The longer ones are ca 5 cm ( 2 inches) longer
I understand your hair has the same lenght..and as I understand correctly Sapphira's hair is also..this will be something!!!!!!!

I don't know what other people will say as they read our postings about the hair and so on...'What has this to do with psychopathy?' they will ask/say....
I hope these persons will take time and see for themselfs this has EVERYTHING to do with it.. but mostly it has, with surviving them and correct the wrong they did to us!!!

Thank you for sharing the information on the CO and I will tell you what my findings are after a while .
Love and pinky hugs,
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/03/08 01:57 AM

Dear Segaya and Lady -and Lord - Crown,

Wow, look what I've been missing:) I hope you are all good. I am just pleased and also very touched by what I have read... All this talk about hair, what does it have to do with psychopathy? I laughed until I cried.

Where do I start? Segaya, I had to take a break because I feel something very deep shifting within myself and I often feel like it's just a dream and I'm going to wake up it will all be gone. Sometimes this is very stressful so I took a break. Then I came back and have had these posts on my mind, even waking me up at night.

Lady Crown, I have cried a lot for you. When you said the words that your hair didn't even touch your ears, it broke me in two. Right down to the soles of my feet, that most painfulo image has struck me. I can almost feel it. And then about buying the clothes. You are reminding of how it still is actually, for me. It might be hard for some people to understand it but it really is a case of not feeling able to shop. Like there's no basis for making any decisions upon. The entire concept of going to choose something for ourselves that we is so foreign in so many ways. So I just don't. It's not a fun thing for me to to. Not for a lack of money now. I just avoid it. I know very well what you mean there.

Segaya, I was actually surprised when you said what you did about the dog. Your words were so kind. I don't know what I expected you to say, well actually I didn;t really expect anything, but least of all what you said. This made me realise that I was totally identified with the exhausted dog. Then when you said what you did I suddenly saw another part of myself, and not only that, but it was like I stepped outside the tired dog and found another little girl. Remember I said that I had lost one? That at times I can sit with my child in the big empty but at other times I just can't find her, she's lost and I don't know where she hides? This kind of keeps happening. She's there and then gone.
Well, your comments flicked me into another space and I actually felt for the first time in my life a sense of anger at what had been done to the little girl. For so long in the past if I felt anger it was a frustrated helpless anger and I always felt like that but I couldn't seem to direct it anywhere in particular. It was there for a while, then gone too. But I've noticed since meeting you all and hearing and sharing, that I am chaning. Settling into myself in a way previously unknown. People tell me I am so very much calmer now, and I notice that I'm not angry in a general irritated way anymore. Then I do feel a more directed anger every now and again, and this is a good feeling for me. I'm pleased with this.

Lady Crown: boy, you really touched on some old stuff for me too. I can't believe it! My mother used to say the same thing about wanting a girl, but then, as with you, dressed me in boys clothes, treated me like a boy. She never bought me pink stuff as a llittle one, either and when I asked her about this years later she blamed me and said it was because I didn;t like pink!! Oh, right!

It is very hard for me to write this, and I hope this isn't too bad, (if you know which way I mean this) but the only thing she ever said about me about my body that was positive was "your hair is your crown and glory"....and look what she did. So I just love that you are Lady Crown. It is perfect.

Before she made me support myself she went through a phase of complaining she didn't have enough money to support me. I never looked at it this way until now, but I can see it was part of the wind up to justifying making me support myself. Anyhow, all the complaints about how hard it was. She said she didn't even have enough money to buy me underwear....(Do I feel a collective cringe as you are thinking, where is this going to go?)...well, anyway, she made this big thing of buying a roll of bright yellow, thick fleecy flannel, and she hand made me bloomers, big baggy things, without a pattern, and I had to wear these. What would it have cost, even to buy a pair of panties a week, in those days, maybe $2. What she'd spend at the coffee shop in a morning. So little to not even afford this? And did she do the same for my brother? No. No way! It was so humiliating. But what a good mother! Sewing for her child when she was so poor she couldn't even afford to buy her underwear?!

When I had my son, she did it agan. She asked me what I needed and I said some cot sheets. I should have known something was coming when she asked. She sent me some cot sheets all right. Two. But each sheet was made of three odd shaped off cuts of old, used, and thinned out adult sheets. Maybe they came from an second hand shop too - it wouldn't surprise me. There's no way she would have kept sheets that old and discoloured.

I have many thoughts about all your writings. The dolls. well, that's just so much. I just can't say anymore. There is so much to say I just don't have the emotional strength right now. But I will come back. Still in my mind I have images of things you have both said. Things sadly painful and familiar. Little girls...I just wish I had several days to sit with all that I am reading, feeling, experiencing, just to mull it over, wait for the tear to make it's way to the surface after the flood turned into a desert again.
I wish I could give you both a big hug. I feel that if I could put my arms around you, when I read what you write, then somehow it would all be easier to handle. I find it hard reading this and wanting to reach out and wrap my arms around you but just not being able to. There is so much I want to say but I will probably step back again for a few days. But my heart is always filled with thoughts about you, during my day dna during my night.
Love, Sapphira.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/03/08 05:24 AM

Just this morning I was talking with a friend about clothes and so on. I told her the following story;

I told a bit in a posting before I think so excuse me if I repeat myself!

When I was still in school we had a guardian from the child-supporting system. he had a daughter who was 1 year older then me. He and his wife were over 50 years old and very conservative in there behavior , speaking and dressing. The daughter was a lot more modern and had very nice clothes.
When this guardian asked if we would mind as he takes the clothes from his wife and daughter for us my mother said no,..we will like that.
I was looking out to the moment he would bring the clothes . It would mean I could finally wear something that was't dirty, worn off, or old, or plane ugly,and maybe.....just maybe... there would be something I really fit and I would like.....
The clothes came.
My mother hwant to sort it out on her own and I had to wait and see............
The next day the clothes ment for me were on a chair. She was dressed in a nic collered dress with linings of a nice shade of green.. It fitted well on the body and further down the dress it became wider..very nice indeed!
I felt a bit jalous but had good hopes for what was left for me.
She pointed me to the chair and the first thing i saw was a dirty kind of yellow ( I can't wear yellow!!) knitted skirt.... the skirt came under the knee..and with it was a coat that wear to the waist. The coat was closed with little knods coverd with the same fabric. This was a suit for a lady over her 50th's.
I had to wear it..To make sure I go to school in this hiddious thing she through away some (awful) trouses I used to wear saying; You have new clothes so now there is no use for these anymore.
Once she made a dress for me.... it could stand on it's own....Like it was made out of wood or stone...terrible and the same thing; Be happy because I sacreficed myself and went out of my way to make you this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Underwear O my God, underwear....
In those years girls started to wear those sets. bra and panties in the same fabric, same collor and same patterns.
You remeber the big knitted underwwear of our grandmothers?
I will not even write the whole thing. I am so sure you know exactly what I mean..and this indeed will give recognision again...

Sapphira I knew somehow you needed a break..And as Lady Crown did before and I felt resstless about it ( and I was correct about that!)..This time with you it brought me a smile on my face. I know...This is far from easy...This time is difficult as it was before, but in a different way..more possitive. It has to do with discovering who you are and all you feel... But I knew underneath it all..There is this knowing...
You are never alone anymore..We are here...Just when you need it.... All the time and everytime..No matter what, this connection is made and You and I and also Lady Crown know now that there is somebody out there reaching out to every one of us!
It is the same thing I wrote before. I never felt really alone,but that was on a spiritual level, in this world I was as alone as a person can be..but not anymore..and I will never be again. I know now that there are people who will tell my story if I can't anymore, I know now that there are people out there who now exactly what is done and what the demage was.

Oww and then what you say about the little girl in the empty space, now she is there, and then she is gone... Take it from me , she isn't gone..maybe she is hiding. Keep going there, maybe just sitting there and maybe speaking gentle words., singing a loving song.... telling a farytail...She knows you are there and it's possible she is testing if she can trust you to come back and be loyal to her.....Take it one step at the time...

I do also want to comfort you and hold you....We know in the material world this is not possible, but any other way does't hold us back, does it!!!!!!
Sapphira, if you feel all alone and need help, just call my name out in your mind and see what will happen...............Watch carefully
Again my dear friend, take your time, it's there for you to use.... This process will take time and it will happen for all of us!
Love Segaya
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/03/08 11:54 AM

Dear Segaya!

I was lying in bed going over something I meant to say but left off my posting, so I got up to write to you and you are already here:) The thing you said was that you have been along this path and you know the getting out process. I meant to tell you that these words were a big comfort, and once I heard them I stopped straining and angsting and ahhh. I was feeling so scared and overwhelmed but to know someone is ahead of me along the way means there is a way and I am ok. Yes, it is hard - in a new way. I want to go so fast to get through it because I'm excited and yet it's like trawling for fish in the deepest sea - not something that can be done quickly.

Now you say there are people out there who will tell your story if you can't anymore. I'm trying to adjust to this sensation that it is like being just one story. When I feel for one of us I am feeling for all of us. This is so new and 'strange'. In a way I feel unsure of it too. And yes, she hides. It's easy for people to say 'trust yourself', but when there's never been anyone else that we learned trust from. When there's been so much happen that takes us against ourself, then it isn't just going to come automatically. But the times when 'it's not' fall after times when ' it is', I will bring myself back here to remember that it is just a journey.

I think too, as you say, there's this part about feeling and getting to know myself in this way. I do notice that my feelings tend to move a lot more eaily now. Logically I know this is a good thing but it does freak me out a bit, but I will get used to the overall balance. Ha! My ex husband was over the other day and I was just wandering round in this state. So distracted, so kind of lost, holding my head. He asked me what was wrong and when his questioned finally filtred in and it was that I couldn't understand what I was feeling, like I was literally walking around the house looking for the answer to what I was feeling! I can laugh at it now, a bit, and I know this is normal for most people, to a certain degree, but sometimes I can't quite keep up. Boy, this must seem so basic. But I just find it so hard!!! This is the shame, you know. And what lady crown was saying about going shopping. I have such a big block about buying clothes. I have a simple solution - I wear sarongs. And it's real easy. Working from home, teaching my son at home I don't have to go out in the mornings. I can buy these without having to use a fitting room. It amazes me just how resistant and how strongly I feel about this subject. I've had people go off at mne about why I don't wear such and such. I know it is odd. In the past there was no answer, it was just the way it had to be. Now I know why. It is a way of coping. And no matter what I must honour it. This is probably one of my biigest issues. And also one of my biggest shames because after all that has happened, I need to hide. That's just one way. Yes, I know without you saying more. It makes me cringe and shudder. It's one of those 'just will never get where they were coming from' moments. And how many of those were there?! There is a certain kind of damage done when one is constatntly hammered by situations, interactions, communications that just don't make any sense. How does one then really engage with the world? I wonder about you, given you are further down the track, do you feel like you live in two different worlds still, or has it changed? Do you feel more of one now?

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/03/08 12:03 PM

Oh, I forgot to say. That feeling I was trying to find the answer for? Well, I found it. It was the feeling that maybe things aren't quite as bad anymore. The psychologist told me I no longer have PTSD and I knew a lot of the behaviours had reduced but on a level I knew I still felt the same. The war's over. she kept saying, but inside a baseline hadn't changed. Dare I believe that maybe it is? Just a flicker. I better not say anymore....
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/03/08 04:12 PM

my dear friend,

Indeed it's a journey!! And it's not an easy one.
This is a process and processes equals time... But I can promise that the time it will take to heal from all this will never ever take as long as it took to demage us!

Ofcourse , you are so right... why, how trust??? what is it? how does it feel. what to do with it???
Big, big questions. And to trust yourself... it's a long way ahead of us in the time we are just starting to cope.

You are such a intellengent woman!
You make the link automatically with the thing called trust and the emotional feelings there are...
I think you will remeber what I told before about the situation that my family went out for the day, I cleaned the whole house and get beaten the hell out of me? I was crying in the kitchen and when my mother saw this she hit me right in the face?
Thinking back I guess this was the moment I just stopped feeling. Fysically and emotionally.' This was the marking of the end of who I was. I didn't feel I existed anymore. I only vegetate. I was around 9-11 years old at the time I think.( my memories of dates and so on are not very clear so I have to guess, going with the pictures in my head.)
When I got in my twenties, and started to get flash backs I knew I had to deal with it... step by step I did, with some help from others but looking back that was just a little bit. The war inside me was private ( as I am sure you will recognize deeply)I couldn't put in to words what happend nor could I discribe my feelings because I didn't feel a thing. My stephfather put a knife in my arm and I just didn't feel it. I went to the docters alright, got my sutures and went again...No pain, nothing. Also emotionally... no anger, pain, nothing at all..
it took me years of my life to learn to feel.. People ask..; 'are you happy?'... and I answered yess, but was thinking; 'what do they mean....happy?' No matter who beated me...I didn't get angry... What i did was feeling sorry for them; He must have a hard time doing this, I have to help him... Or; pff he had a hard day, nothing wrong....tomorrow he will be nicer again... And just went on with existing. Sometimes I didn't think anything at all about it..It just was what was happening..finish. I was nothing a nobody so why not beat me???

At one time in my life I learned a bit about feeling. this was when I got my son and somebody want to hurt him.. This moved something inside me, I think this was anger indeed....I am still not sure!!

I had to learn to feel again.
I know now, And I won't make it any nicer then it is, this 'fight'to learn how to feel is one of the biggest in my life.
And it was surtenly the most scary one.
In those days I had a big fear ( there we go with the language thing again!!) for being outside. Scared of going into shops, streets, buildings, scared of men.. If I walked on a sideway and there was a man approaching in the distance and the other site of the road was empty, I grossed the street! Scared of women.... They would make me ashamed I was sure!!! Children because they could start calling me names.... I was scared and very very shy!
Being in a shop ment; I was on a strategic point with a wall in my back and looking for danger. I could make an inventory of the shop and the people inside in a split second. Know who is a potentional danger and who is not. ( I still can)

in the house I was a bit more save but I knew for so vey long already that people maybe seem nice enough, but that doesn't gave me any garanty.

So the desision to want to learn how to feel again was huge.
Let's not forget...Not feeling gives a lot of comfort. Oke , we miss out on many things, but there are probably more feelings that are not nice then there are nice..At least that was my way of thinking back then.

With the help of my little girl inside, having my son and bit by bit let the feelings come to the surface, using the pat on the shoulder at the same time... I started to feel something. The next problem was to identify what this feeling was. I didn't have a clue!!!
Not knowing what the feelings were means that there isn't any thing to do with them...
When people are sad,they cry...when people are happy ..they laugh...when people are angry they shout and slem the door.... But what IS happy, sad, angry???? and this are the easy feelings and emotions..What about frustration..pfff or powerlessness... this are much more complicated aren't they...!!!!
At the same time I felt there was this easy way out, I just had to turn the feeling out and there wouldn't be a problem anymore... This turning out the feeling seemed so much easier and comfortable... Why did I make a problem about not feeling? if I didn't feel the wolrd didn't seem collorfull, but dull is a way of live also!!! being collorblind isn't so bad if you haven't a clue about what collor is.....But man...starting to see one collor..two collors...wauw
it makes you curios to know about the rest...

So it took me time to get to feel, identify the feeling and deside what to do with it, expres them or not.
next problem was how do I confront people with this feelings. There is a time that i was 'angry' at somebody... I didn't express it because i didn't feel I had the right to do so...
If I found myself in a position that i thought I had the right, than there is the problem of how to express it, not to hurt that person, but still give air on my emotions..
Finding the balance in all these things is a challange.

In time I learned. Sometimes there was somebody around I could trust enough to ask... I discribed what i thought I was feeling... ( guessed to give it a name...) and asked what she would do in this same situation..Problem is that a lot of people think if they give some advise you HAVE to do so.. Ah ah not me.I have my own brain..I ask you a question but it doesn't mean I am without a brain or have no opinion.... So I took the advice, hear what that person had to say about it, and disided myself what to do with it Use it as it came or be creative with it and use it to get to something that was closer to my own personallity.
As I look back..when this was happening it seemed that it took me ages to get better with this. Now I know it wasn't such a long time.
Don't forget we are LIKE children in these things, but we are grow ups..We learn ohh so very fast!!! So as normal in situations . At the time it seems to take endlessly but afterwards you realize it didn't took so long at all.
it doesn't come all at once, so that is comforting also.. Live is supporting you, it will never give you more to deal with then what you can handle.

To answer your other question;

How does one then really engage with the world? I wonder about you, given you are further down the track, do you feel like you live in two different worlds still, or has it changed? Do you feel more of one now?

Yes I do..And for many , many years already!!!
I am a whole person now, living in one world, With the knowledge that the other world exist and people are still suffering.
With this knowledge of both, I can help others now to find they'r way into this one base of existing. living, feeling, interacting with they'r inside world as well as they're outside world..( do you undertand what i am saying with this?). Somehow I sometimes feel like a bridge that helps people to cross over to the other side.
looking back the real dealing and cooping with everything that happend took me..all and all, around 3 years i think.
Do I mean saying this that after those 3 years everything is gone?...No I do not. You can't wipe it out, not clean it, not cutt it away, nor burn it out of your life.
it wil always be there.
And you know what?
And maybe you won't believe me telling you this; At some level I am glad with all that happend. it made me a better person , it gave me knowledge on so many different levels, it made me see so many things others are totally blind to, it made me help others go along they're way to a better live.....
it gave me knowledge about me on a level so little people do... I can't begin to express what it gave me.
Ofcourse this is how I feel about it now, after so many years. At the time I existed first in pain ,later on not feeling at all, and then climbing up on the ladder of life!

yes I feel a whole person now. I can look back on what happend, and yess I feel pain still. But it's not my pain anymore, it is your's and Lady Crowns pain, but I can feel it on a different level than others will do. I've been there, lived it, rememeber it and I celebrate the girl inside me that survived and lives a happy live now.
Sometime I have tears in my eyes as I feel what you feel, go through what lady Crown shares And than i am releaved because I know i am a different person now.

To answer a question that I think lives inside you after reading all this;.....
Was it worth all that trouble?

I hope and pray the same thing will happen to you, to Lady Crown and all the others that are outside there who need it.

Again...take time... be patient with all that is happening. I know, I wished so many times there would be this switch i could turn on to get it over with...But take it from me... In reality you wouldn't want it, it won't teach you anything that way, won't make you that better person and then the wolrd ends there!

I hope you know that if you have any question, you can ask me. There are no taboes for me on this subject non at all!!!!
And If i can help you in any way I love to do so...

With love Segaya.

( sorry I read this over, it's very long, but I wanted to really answer and not just say something....)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/03/08 04:23 PM

Yes there has changed something and it's irriverible.
I read it in your postings, feel it in the way you express yourself...
Remember what I said when you explained why you were away for a while....I said I was thinking of you, knowing you had to take some time off? But also that it gave me a smile on my face... Before I was really worried , thinking about you and feel sad..Now My heart jumps over and over again, reading what you share..
This doens't mean I underestamate what you are going through. it means I read the signs!!!
I can tell you that you will succeed and that it won't take you a long time of struglle to start feeling comfortable in your body and way of living. I know of the road you have to go through and it will give you so many suprises and little wonders.
It willl make you feel wonderfull ..I promise!!!
( and you can take me on this promise!!)

Live it self will support you in a way you can't even immagine. It will come with little presents and you will recognize them one by one...It will fill you with energy and it will show you how to go about it...... it will bring a smile on your face...And be honest....didn't live do this already??
Love Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/03/08 04:32 PM

Hai my dear friends Lady Crown and Sapphira,

I want to share something also...
I know we were talking about dolls and how they remember us of so many things.
Several years ago I started a hobby. I didn't finish because of my illness and leck of money but stil it makes my heart beat a little faster as I see it.
See this as an example..and please without those dolls in it... This is a miniature and the scale is 1: 12.....( the smallst dolls are scale 1:10 so always to big!!)
All is handmade by the owner......Let your fantasy do the rest!!!!!
With lots of love..Segaya

At the bottom of the page you can click on several items... I soooo nice!!!
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 03/04/08 09:51 AM

Dear Segaya and Sapphira,

There is so much I want to say about your recent posts, I don't even know where to start!

It is such a relief to me to hear about your experiences with the little girl neglect and abuse, because I can finally share the pain of that with other girl friends! Not that I wanted either of you to suffer it, but I am sure you know what I mean by the relief of not being alone anymore. The hair, the clothes, the shopping; how many times have any of us been quietly trying not to cry in a dressing room, making our way in, and then freezing, not knowing what to do. If you are forbidden to look in a mirror in your home, the act of being in a dressing room and facing this huge mirror brought up such self-hatred, I would drop everything and leave. No wonder we don't shop! Who could shop like this? I wasn't even able to hold a blouse up to myself and glance in a mirror!

Sapphira, I'm sending a link for you as well, since you mentioned sarongs;

I know it says it is a muu-muu, but it was as close as I could get.

And to this day, it still continues; I was combing out my hair and without looking up, my Psychopath sister said "when are you going to cut THAT?" To this day, it drives her crazy (a short trip) that it is long and blonde and pretty and she simply cannot stop making unflattering comments about it. My whole life, everytime she saw me, she said, "What did you do to your hair?" She said it the first time she saw me at my father's funeral. Cruel and persistant.

Segaya, that link was amazing! What beauty and detail! How far did you go with this hobby? It takes a fine eye and a love of beauty, and I am sure you did very well with it. I used to have hobbies of needlework (I taught myself) but I had to stop when I became disabled.

I still cannot see other people on the street, man, woman, or child, without panicking, and feeling that they are going to hurt me. I still cross the street to avoid them, and check out stores before I go in, and sometimes still have to leave. But I was so happy when you said you are a whole person now,

yes I feel a whole person now. I can look back on what happend, and yess I feel pain still. But it's not my pain anymore, it is your's and Lady Crowns pain, but I can feel it on a different level than others will do. I've been there, lived it, rememeber it and I celebrate the girl inside me that survived and lives a happy live now.
Sometime I have tears in my eyes as I feel what you feel, go through what lady Crown shares And than i am releaved because I know i am a different person now.

That was so wonderful to read and I am so happy for you! You deserve that peace so much!

Sapphira, I don't do well on engaging with the world. I only know that I have to take it a little bit at a time. Maybe one trip to the library, and then safely home, or one or two errands. I make a list of where I am going, and in what order, and that keeps me from getting panicky and confused. Sometimes when I am talking to the librarian or the clerk, I absolutely feel like a big fraud, because they don't know I am dying inside, and praying to just get through this and get out. It is like living in two worlds, because part of us is trapped in the world of self-hatred and neglect and shame that the Psychopath's put us into and worked to make sure we stay there. See my note above about my sister and the hair; she is still trying so hard to keep me there. She will probably never stop. She needs me to be there. But the other part of me wants to be in the world, wishes I could talk to people with the desperate fear I have of them, because it is so exhausting. So don't worry about feeling like you are in two worlds, it's just different parts of you striving for ascendancy. The ideal is that both will eventually merge together, and the periods of discomfort will become shorter, and the ones of comfort will become longer. It really does happen, although it seems painfully slow.

I have to say the underwear stories were absolutely horrifying. Rolls of fabric, and old cot sheets, and God knows what else. I wish I could say I can't imagine that, but unfortunately I can. This may sound fatuous, but I know if you can't even try on a blouse, just going to the ladies' lingerie department is a nightmare. I would absolutely wait for some stranger to come up to me and start laughing at me for having the nerve to look at lace and finery. How I got around that is by ordering things from a catalog first. Hurray for J.C. Penney's! I ordered the simple things first, and then tried a few pretty lace-trimmed ones. It took a while, but after I found my fit, it was a little easier to go into a store and try to do it. I don't think it will ever be completely easy, but at least I can manage to do it now. And I felt so bad for you both, with your mothers convincing you what a martyr they were to "provide" that for you. How horrible! That is the real twist, like me without a room, convincing us how "lucky" we are to have nothing, to be given the dregs, to make us feel guilty about minding it! That is the real cruelty, because it does more damage than the actual event.

I am trying to think of anything I can tell you about that helped me a little bit, like the CO washing and the catalog shopping; I would like for you to ask me specific questions about trouble spots, and maybe I can help a little bit. Please do, it would be so good. Even though the memories and damage are there, there really are techniques that will help minimize the current habits and behaviors. I would be honored to help in any way.

Love, Lady Crown

By the way. my husband says when he wins the lottery, he is going to have us all meet in Paris and go shopping!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/05/08 04:18 PM

Dear LADY Crown And Saphira,

I have to admit that sometimes it is hard for me to know what caused this or that...
I never go to the center of the town to do shoppings. I have to once in a while, but I savely can say I hate it.
Is this indeed because of what is planted in my brain...or is it conditional.. My heart prevents me from using too much energy. I get tired real fast,
I can't walk for very long and they refuse to give me a wheelchair.
I have a parkingcard for disabled people. You only get the card when you can't walk more than a 100 meter. If I park my car in the nearest place, so as close as I can get, it takes me that 100 meter to go to the first store, look in and go back to the car!!!! I can't go in even because I am to tired already.
If I have to go I make sure I got my list of things I need. As I go along with that list the chance is I have to break up and go home.
So, Probably you know how it is if you are bone tired.... you can't concentrate anymore, everything and everybody is too much. For that reason I think I can't shop for clothes very well also.. The fitting is too much for me.
Reading your stories, Lady Crown and Sapphira, I can't get but wonder what if........
There is an other problem for me on top of that.
I can't stand electricity. It gets all my energy and takes it out of me. The shopping centre is of course full of wires, so that can be the problem also. I learned in the years how to cope with it, but this thing with electricity is too strong if I am there too long and tired from the shopping itself.
Is it possible that part of my resisting the shopping centre is the same thing you have....?
I honestly can't give an answer to that......

I know the recovery seems to be, as you say Lady Crown, painfully slow...
But as I look back and try to reason it... How long did it take us to learn all the negative things..... How long did it take us to get the low selfesteem, to be manipulated in a way that we are so scared??
Yes, it took years and years...and still we are not broken. We still want the good live, we still know somehow that live can be kinder and nicer... we still stand strong in who we are and what we want...So with al the force there was against us, we are still who we are!!!
That means something don't you think??
It means, I think, on the surface we are what we seem to be..But if we look deeper, there is something else. There is the core of what and who we are; still standing strong!!!!

I know we tend to think we are nothing, But look closer; Sapphira you are reasing a child on your own..Not just a child YOUR child..A child with a problem. There is no freedom for you in daytime as he goes to school, you teach him, take care of him, work, provide, keep your house.... That is something!!!
This is huge isn't it... I now..again probably you will see all mistakes that are made..But , try to project it on an other person..same circumstances; What would you think of that acoomplisment? I think you can only admire such a person...Now..take it from me...that person is YOU.
I am so proud of you for doing so.
I don't know what kind of heart conditons you have you only mentioned that once..But it means you will have a problem with being tired also. I admire you.

Lady Crown... I had several relationships in my life and non of them was succesfull, look at you; With all the wrong information you have had, you manage to find yourself a good ,loving, supporting husband..he understands you, partly because of his own backround, but YOU made the choice!
You are the one who goes out and still takes care of people in a way that I couldn't do in my wildest dreams.....And your doing so being disabled ..Incradible...
On top of it all, you have found skills that help you to be a caring, loving, helping, wonderfull woman..I am curios how you did that!!!

So yes, it will take a while to get where you want to be..But don't think for one moment there will suddeny be this huge gape between this moment and that, what will be overcme in a split will come graduatly. It won't take your energy away only!! It will give you energy. it will make that you get some presents from live itself.
If you wouldn't have started with coping; would you be here on this forum, discussing with us? Would you be able to share what you haveto, want to?
no you wouldn't!! So live started to give away it's presents already. These presents will keep on coming, wait and see...keep an open eye for it and you will be surprised daily!
it won't take you years to become happy, don't focus on how it will be in years to come, you will be blind that way to what is happening in the now... it will take your attention only away from what is importend and it will make that you think you won't be strong enough to get there. It can be scary to think to far ahead. And to be honest; it doesn't serve anything. We don't know what lays ahead, do we..So we focus on all bad things to happen, that makes us expecting them and that way we will recognize it from far. In the mean time there are thing happening that are so wonderfull, but we won't see it, because we can only see the negative things.

My girly, pinky girlfriend, I started to wash my hair with CO. I have a question though;
I dy my hair..I am a grandma so I am grey. I dy it dark and after wards I wash it and put some conditioner in .. Can I CO after that also..without using shampoo?

Another question that doesn't leaf my mind is;
How on earth do you cope with helping your mother the way you are, being confronted all the time with all that bad. AND be able to stay close to yourself....

As we say; 'I break my head about it' since you wrote it! so I hope you can tell me?

With lots of love Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/05/08 04:30 PM

ihih I forget about the half I wanted to say....

Forget about Paris, it's too expensive and i live only a 6 hour drive from it. Stay here, take my car and visit paris all you want, but if you stay here it will be much cheaper, so it can happen sooner!!!!!

Lady Crown;
I didn't finish the work on the dollhouse, to be honest..I only just started!!
before you start with the work, you have to know what timeperiod the house will be in..I wanted to let it be a house from around the 1860's..... So all kind of questions has to be answered; What kind of furnature was there, Did they have plants in the europian houses by then, and which plants would be imported and which aren't, If there has to be a toilet in the house, where was it in the planning, and to give another example; Did they use toiletpaper back then..and in what way..was it rolled up like we use to get now or was there a diffrent way to use it?
All kind of questions that need to be looked into before even start drawing a sketch ...
it's goes for everyhting,you can'ttakeanything for granted if you want it to be historicaly correct. So it took me several years to look in to that part.
I started to make a hallway.. with a big stairs ( one of coming down from with all the dresses and grandure you dream of)I made all the carpet flooring in a motive... I dressed the windows with class curtains and than I stopt...So no furnature in or so....
I became more ill and lack of energy and money. My Psychopath'son dammage the whole thing , but that I discovered years later.....

I have al kind of skills and as you, I teached myself... it was so nice to read you did too.....Again this simmelarity...strainge isn't it..Sapphira will have the same thing I bet!!!
With love still again and always; Segaya
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 03/05/08 10:11 PM

Dear Segaya,

I color my hair too, and the instructions say to rinse it out after a certain time, and then condition with what comes in the package. I do that. You don't need an additional conditioner after what comes in the dye package. Then the NEXT time I wash my hair, without coloring, I CO instead of shampoo. So follow the package instructions, and use the CO wash for your regular washes.

Another question that doesn't leaf my mind is;
How on earth do you cope with helping your mother the way you are, being confronted all the time with all that bad. AND be able to stay close to yourself....

As we say; 'I break my head about it' since you wrote it! so I hope you can tell me?

Well, it's hard. Really hard. The worst thing, of course, is that it's not appreciated. But I don't do it to be appreciated, although it would have been nice. I do it because I believe it is simply what you do for someone, anyone, who is in need of help, assistance and care, and I don't allow personal emotions to affect what I feel are my moral standards. If I allowed that to happen, I wouldn't spit on them if they were on fire. It is an action of choice every single time...every time I help her stand, check her eyes and her medications, feed her, keep her safe. While I'm doing it, she is making comments and unfavorably comparing me, and all the rest. She has no hesitation in bringing up terrible times in my life as if they were a joke. Of course the hurt is terrible, but I am doing this in a sense for me. Because this is what I believe in, what I would want done to me if I needed it, and no one has the right or the power to make me something other than what I am. If she is dishing out cruelty to me while I am tending to her, it does hurt, but that hurt doesn't matter. I know I am right, and whether she feels it or not, I feel it. She has no power over me that can affect the real me, the inner me, the one who made a choice about how I want to live my life and what kind of person I wanted to be. If I let hurt dictate to me my actions, I would have no inner core, because I would always be controlled by the inflicted pain. I don't let it control me. I decide what I want to do, and do it, and even if I go home and cry over the pain, I still know it hasn't made me into something else, or into them.

I hope this wasn't as poor an explanation as it seems...I wish I could do something more active, like say "they do this, and I do that". I go over, I do what needs to be done, I make sure she is comfortable and protected, and I don't get into the lack of feelings about me. I could beg in tears for a little recognition and love, and it would mean nothing. But I'm not capable of leaving someone, even someone who has hurt me, in pain, frightened, and alone. They did it to me, and left me like that, and I never want to contribute to anyone else feeling like that, even the persons who did it to me, and would do it again in a heartbeat.

Maybe this is all crazy, and I should be indifferent and rough and selfish, but I'm not. I am lucky enough to know that if you know that about yourself, that is the real you, and you will do more damage to yourself by denying yourself. I like to think that if I hadn't chosen to be like this when young, I would not have had my beloved cat love me, my wonderful husband choose me, and the good people like you and Jan and Sapphira would not be my "friends". I've always believed that. So I feel people like you are my reward for remaining a good person.

I am sorry you are in so much pain, and can't even get a wheelchair! I would think if you have the placard, you would be able to apply for one. I know fluorescent lights absolutely wear me out really fast, and I have to leave in a short time. I use a list to keep from getting panicky and confused about being outside. Somedays I can't even go get the mail.

I would have liked to have a career, and a profession, but the disability put an end to that. Before that what I really wanted more than anything was a happy domestic life. My husband teases me. I mend by hand, embroider, cook, clean, can clean and bandage injuries, stop bloodflow, and wrap ace bandages very well. And with him, I've had to stop hemorrhages, debride injuries, keep him conscious until I could get him in the car, and teach him about tetanus shots. He says when the Big Cataclysm comes, I'll be at the top of the list of people they want to save! He says if I could just learn lock-picking, I'd be unstoppable!

The description you wrote of the house sounded just lovely, and you must have done some incredible research before you even started. I can see you descending the staircase in grandeur! Lovely! Maybe I'll imagine myself doing that before I go to sleep, and hopefully have less nightmares. I'd love to know about the research you did into the details of the trim and accessories, etc. The only research I can do right now is genealogy, but isn't it fun to do!

Yes, the similarities are amazing, But I think they were meant to be. Talk to you again soon,

Pinky hugs and love, Lady Crown
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/05/08 11:33 PM

Dear Segaya and lady Crown,

I so know that feeling of 'where to start'?

Over and over the coincidences...The doll's houses. When I saw the other two dolls I was looking for a limosine - or a car (probably to get away in!). But no, you are right, a house. Yes. that is what we need. So in that way, it was lovely - all of course in addition to the actual physical qualities of the work....which is amazing!

And then you said it was your hobbie. When I was young, about 10 or so, I used to make dolls houses too. I made them for my cousins. I loved it. Strangely, I never even thought to make one for myself. But, again, like you, it was something there for me....:) again!

And then. The numbness you mean. What kind of world is it - a child being knifed in the arm? But the numbness, yes I know that also. It is quite something, the degree to which we can block on various levels. When I was 9 I was being taken home by the father of a child I'd been allowed to visit. I was wearing bare feet and I was so awkward with being around people, in a car, which we didn't have, and the entire situation. As I got into the car I closed the door on my foot and broke my two smallest toes. I managed to talk to the man after that, and when I got home I didn't even think to tell my mother - despite the fact she's a nurse. Theoretically I had help right at hand. But no. That is what strikes me, and, as with you, I just didn't feel anything. or should I say I did, but blocked it out.

Lady Crown: thank you so much for the lovely doll. I was so surprised when I saw this! Thank you for thinking of me. The blue is just gorgeous:)

When you mentioned looking in the mirror, I have to tell you this thing. I'm of Latin/European origin - olive skinned, dark brown hair. I grew up amongst anglosaxons. and everyone tells me that I definitely look foreign. But in my mind, I'm fair skinned and blonde. I can't see myself for what I am. I have an internal image. There was a wall between the internal and external. What was on the outside could have been anything. And I know what you said about the being a girl thing. I wasn;t allowed to be. And on an inner level I didn;t want to be if being a girl meant being like her. But now, I realise it doesn;t mean this - just because she was that doesn;t mean I am. Now I understand so much more of the problem I am able to say that there is a definite difference between the two of us. Massive, essential differences. I still often ask if myself if I'm like her and I can logically tell myself and go through the material to remind myself, that no, I'm not.

Ah - your husband! Such a kind thought...can you imagine? My first image was of a couple of hideaways tucked behind a lampost peering in at the windows!! Can you imagine the stress?! But what a lovely thought. Thank you.

Segaya, i have realised that saying "the war is over" is not actually a feeling. It's a condition that houses a feeling and I just couldn;t say what it was. But it has come. It is a sense of "almost safety". It's not full safety yet, but my first glimpse of it. I realise that I have been buffetted by externals for so long. And something is starting to say that I need to protect my inner space from these things. I can't carry on living on the edges of my nerves anymore. I want to find a sense of stability, and some inner protection and constancy no matter what may be happening in the real world. It feels like on the inside there isn't really anywhere to hide, and I agree that she hides until she knows she can trust. I see the next step for me in this is to create a kind of inner haven and hold to good feeling, no matter what. I'm tired of being just soooo at the mercy of the world. It is better than it used to be, but it needs to get better still.
Does this make any sense or sound familiar at all?

Lady Crown, that guilt. I've been thinking about that too. Now I have a name Psychopath, for what it was, yet I feel a deep sense of not being entitled to actually say or use it. By admitting I know something of what a Psychopath is like I find myself shaking inside. It is a shocking thing for some people and it does create fear at times. It isn't a word to be used lightly. But I find myself getting a bit scared of other people's fear of it. Guilt by association. Guilt that I could dare to say there is something wrong with her, not me. I don't understand why I feel so bad inside. I don't know exactly what I;m feeling - is it guilt or shame or I just can't explain it and I wish I could, to reassure myself. Like knowing about some really dark things it's as though I did these dark things - that kind of feeling. Maybe when I am used to it more. It's been a dirty secret all these years. There is a depth of pain and confusion and darkness about these things that are done, that is way deeper and darker and more painful than a lot of people can handle. Understandably. But still. Actually I'm not quite sure what I'm trying to say here, really. Would appreciate your thoughts, any and all.

Love Sapphira
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/05/08 11:53 PM

The gifts. Yes, they have already started coming. Talking to you both - that's the big one! Sometimes in between dark times, I feel light. Insights are coming, that are helping me to change. The feelings are coming and the words. Clarity too.

Lady Crown, I understand exactly what you are saying. To me it's like having your own standard. Keeping to what is important and worthwhile to you, and not letting them make you turn away from this. I once read that we sometimes get into a relationship because of who we hope to become, and leave a relationship because of who we actually do become. Sometimes people who challenge us by trying to make us what they want only end up making us more determind not to become their way. If only they knew this:)

Love, sapphira
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/07/08 01:09 PM

Dear Segaya,

I have been thinking about what you say about the gifts. There is one thing that I feel ashamed to say but I know I ought to tell you. So you know how much what you have given me in explaining being in the big empty has done for me and also because, as you also said, silence is not good.

Since being with myself in the BE (I've just realised what I have written here- the Big Empty you see?! That's amazing. Yes, it is where I can BE. Wow. Yes that is it. Learning to Be (Me).)

What I started out to say was that when my son was little he and I would sit at the table together to eat. But over the years I found it increasingly difficult to do this and we gradually began eating in the lounge. This saddened me but I knew the roots were very deep. There was a vague sense that I just wasn't good enough and it was all too close in some way. Too close to a deep shame, probably.

When I lived with my mother and brother we ate at the table every meal. But it was one of the most lonely places for me. No one talked to me and meals were the times my mother 'had' my brother. We were only supposed to be eating food but it was as though she was devouring him, in a way. It was so sickening. From the start she was inappropriate. I remember her taking photographs of him in the shower when we was about 7. I saw her with the camera go into the bathroom and I watched her take the very first photo. There was such a look on his face. I don't know how to describe it but I'll never forget it. It was just SO invasive. She used to keep her photos in a big massive cardboard box, and before I left the house I went through the photos, and I found that photo. And while I don't think were many others like that I had to get that one. Do you understand? She used the camera so invasively. She'd prowl around and would never listen if they didn't want their photo taken. This never happened with me, only with my brother and now his two sons. I used to feel so bad for him. I wish I could have protected him, and I did against other people, but it was a different story with her. And the thing is he never questioned her or struggled to get away. But I believe that was because she got to him and he didn't have the sophistication to see what she was doing. She had split us against each other from too young.

Her inappropriateness didn't stop with the photo's and wasn't confined to the table. As he got older she would not cover herself up after a shower and would 'linger' naked. And she would flirt with him terribly. And mostly this happened at the meal table. Ahh! It was so FOUL! It makes my skin crawl. Every time we sat down, they were 'into' each other. He loved the attention, and she knew this. I felt so terribly alone, in myself, and sickened for him.

So one of the gifts that is coming to me since you told me about the BE is an awareness now of how I know my son wants me to be with him. And I would like our meal times to be a nice sharing, what they are meant to be, but I honestly struggle with feeling like I will vomit, at times, if I sit at the table. When he was little I rarely ate, I'd read to him while he ate, and he loved that. But now it's different. I want to be able to do such a normal and loving thing. But first there is this. I used to believe in myself that there was something so missing from myself and that meal times just made me more aware of it. But since sitting in the BE with myself I am realising that any discomfort doesn't come from my son, but from me because of this.

All this is making me think of how she was with my brother. She interferred with his marriage and created such trouble. When he and his wife divorced she was able to have all three 'boys' to herself. When they would stay at her house, even when they were older, she thought nothing of climbing into their beds. That's natural, people might say - grandchildren love being in bed with their grandparents. But to me, it's one thing when a child climbs into its grandparent's bed, of their own free will. It's quite another thing when the grandparent climbs into the child's bed because they are lonely. And especially when the child is uncomfortable with this, as my nephew expressed to me. So I told my brother and he apparently didn't know she was doing this. He didn't believe me to start with. So I told him to ask his son. And he did and I think he put a stop to it. Thank God!!

Maybe to others it may seem extreme to react as I did. But I knew how she was with me. She didn't get into my bed, she'd wake me up and have me get into her bed. Initially she would be wearing nightclothes, but as I got older, she thought nothng of coming into my room naked, waking me up and getting me into her bed and then snuggling up with me naked, when I was 13, 14 and older. I know that people make allowances for things when it's a mother that they don't otherwise. If I'd had a father and he'd done the same thing he would have been arrested! Right?

I hate being the one who gets to see the sick dark secrets. But at the same time, I was glad my nephew talked to me. I feel very sad and guilty now because in getting away I have no contact with them at all. I cannot trust my brother and he now has a thing about taking photographs. He did visit once since I severed contact with the rest of the family but he was very upset when I refused to allow him to take any photos' - which she has asked him to do. He feels pressured to make things happen to keep her happy. I pulled the plug on him after he abused me for being so self centred and immature and hurting so many people. If my mother is crying it is ONLY for herself. And he has no idea of what I have been through with her. He just wouldn't believe me anyway. He's always been caught in the middle and I have told him I'm not interested in trying to 'convince' him of anything. It's amazing that we grew up in the same house. Who would guess this was all going on? What could I say to anyone about this? But believe me, it is almost my mission now. I will find other ways to get the truth out. So he knows. So my nephews know a) I know what was going on. b) that they can get out. c) That I am out and when they need a haven they will have one. and d) Her behaviours are exposed so that other people can see the kind of snow job these types do to others to blind and disorientate them. God help me, I am going to SOMETHING to make a change in this!! It makes me furious!


Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/07/08 06:13 PM

Dear Sapphira,
I wish I wasn't so tired. I just came from rehursal with my band, it's 2 in the night and I am ammazed again.
The last copple of days I've been asking myself if I should write about my eating disorder or would wait for a while.....
I will write about it tomorrow, promise..I will also answer Lady Crowns writing.
For now;
I am so glad you have so much help from the BE...( I have a big smile on my face.... you are so right...BE!!! wauw.....
I have so much to tell.... so much to share...But I have to wait till tomorrow, than I will take time and sit down with all thats in my head right now....'
Thank you for sharing, thank you for being brave make me proud to be a woman, and your friend!!!
Love segaya
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/07/08 08:17 PM

Dear Lady Crown,

I was rereading your posts and I just wanted to say that by sharing your life as you are you have already been a big help. To know that there is another who knows the anxiety and that inner awkwardness,is so much for me. Shame on top of anxiety. But when I hear how it unfortunately was for, as it was for me, the shame at least is starting to lift. You don't need to say a great deal because what you do say carries so much with it. I know that I'm not alone now. You and Segaya. Even though we are on the other side of the world from each other, the three of us a little triangle across the oceans, there is great support and strength coming for me in this. I live by lists too. I drive myself everywhere because I simply cannot bare to walk down the street, be out and about amongst people like this.I never go near a mall. I get claustrophobic and panicky. When people look at me it feels as though their eyes are lasers that pierce right through me and it hurts. I cannot cope with being looked at or having my photo taken. I go everywhere by car. I know there are others who are like us. But it means so much to know that we are like we are for the same reason. That makes all the difference.

Love sapphira
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/07/08 08:19 PM

Dear Segaya,

I just got your post and wanted to thank you. You will be asleep now as I will probably be by the time you get this. But I just wanted to thank you for your kind and thoughtful note...I knew you'd 'get' my BE thing.
Love sapphira
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 03/08/08 08:27 AM

 Originally Posted By: Sapphira

Dear Lady Crown,

I was rereading your posts and I just wanted to say that by sharing your life as you are you have already been a big help. To know that there is another who knows the anxiety and that inner awkwardness,is so much for me. Shame on top of anxiety. But when I hear how it unfortunately was for, as it was for me, the shame at least is starting to lift. You don't need to say a great deal because what you do say carries so much with it. I know that I'm not alone now. You and Segaya. Even though we are on the other side of the world from each other, the three of us a little triangle across the oceans, there is great support and strength coming for me in this. I live by lists too. I drive myself everywhere because I simply cannot bare to walk down the street, be out and about amongst people like this.I never go near a mall. I get claustrophobic and panicky. When people look at me it feels as though their eyes are lasers that pierce right through me and it hurts. I cannot cope with being looked at or having my photo taken. I go everywhere by car. I know there are others who are like us. But it means so much to know that we are like we are for the same reason. That makes all the difference.

Love sapphira

Dear Sapphira,

Thank you so much for this nice post. It is a tremendous relief to know that we and Segaya share so much of the same turmoil. I can't bear to be looked at either.

Although I have to interrupt this with a funny story; last year I broke my ankle, and was on a cane with a severe dragging limp. I had to go to the store to pick up a pocketbook, and my dermatologist had just applied a treatment that resulted in a severely ulcerated bleeding forearm. It was summer and raining madly, so my husband had to drop me off at the door and find a parking place. So here I am, terrified of being looked at in the best of circumstances, and I come into the crowded store, dragging my leg, limping on a cane, this hideous-looking arm, and people actually stepped back as I hove into sight! All I needed was a little bell to finish the image of me as a leper. The clerks were stricken as I dragged myself up to the register, and did everything but carry me out to the car!

What you said about lasers is so true; it's as if you can physically feel the glance. I wish I could drive more, but I am too afraid of getting lost because I get panicky and confused. I can only bear having about one doctor's appointment a week, because anything more than that is just too much, knowing I have to go somewhere. And you are right; people who don't suffer from this just don't understand. They keep saying, "but it's so easy! You can't get lost! There's nothing to be afraid of!" Well, good for them. They have no idea how lucky they are.

Sapphira, you should never feel additional shame about your feelings. It's hard enough feeling the undeserved shame that we already do, without blaming ourselves on top of it. I'm happy to hear the shame is starting to lift, it means that you are being able to understand yourself and understand that you are suffering, not that you are wrong. That's a very big step and I'm proud of you! I love the idea of our little triangle across the oceans. It really does make a difference.

Love, Lady Crown
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/08/08 02:39 PM

Pinky girlfriend,
I am so proud to call you girlfriend.
There is so much dept in what you are saying!
The way you give words to the feelings and answer my question about taking care of you mother is so powerful.You are a great person indeed. And again..I got out 'the easy way'....( well..much to be said about that!!) Easy in a way that I don't have to ask myself those questios, don't have to decide what to do and how to cope with a situation like this.I am the lucky one, people would say...but am I?... You take the change to rise above it and take the challance of a situation to grow as a human being and stay on top of it. You are able to stay close to you inner self and face those difficulties. Is there a more powerful way to grow? I doubt it!!!

It makes me so very proud of us all. In our own situation it seems we all rise above the expectations of our youth. What kind of person could we have become?.... How many victims could we have made being that way? Instead of that we all try to live our lifes the best way we can. Helping , supporting, caring of others.
You made so very clear what you mean; I thought about this a lot and the only possibillity I could think of you being able to do what you do is exactly as you discribed it to be. Thank you so much for sharing this. I will think about it a lot..Especially if the feeling of not wanting to help gets to me. ( in my work that is...)
This will make me wonder if there is just this little step further I could go....

It also teached me again, that all 'they' tried to demage us deep within, the core of us is still undemage. They didn't break us.... The hurt is there, no doubt, but they didn't succeed in totally distore us. That is how strong we are...In my work I see a lot of demaged people and to be honest, it happens that when I hear about there stories I sometimes think; Is this all? Is this why you have to go to a psychiatrist for, is this a reason to take medication? Is this a reason to go out and hurt somebody else??? Isthis a reason to abuse your children or let them be abused and not doing a thing????
I can't help myself... It maybe disrespectful but comparing this to our situations sometimes it seems so minor.. I can't think of any example now but take it from me ...a lot of people are looking for attention the wrong way.
I know I have to be respectful at all times and most of the time I am..I am the one who try to teach people that live is just what it is and if somebody is weak a little thing can have the same impact as a big thing will have on a stronger person...It's just the way it is... But this showes how strong you are,...we are... And this is to value in a great sence.

About the wheelchair..there is more to it then I wrote before.
I just think it's an injustment;
I have had a elecric wheelchair before.
Almost 4 and a half years ago I applied for a car. knowing I wouldn't get it, but I was aiming high so they would give me a closed wheelchair..i don't know if you know those little cars. They only drive 45 km an hour and are ment for short distances.
The city covernment refused. one of the reasons I aplied for this little car is because if I went out in a temputure below 16 degrees Celsius it would take me days before I could get warm again...So If lucky I could go out for 2 or probably 3 months a year.....and then I have to get my energy level up, so small change for me to go out...
Friends I met through the internet and who I have met in RL, spoke about this together and without me knowing they started to save some money for buying me a little car like that in the distanned future.. Slowly because all of them aren't working so have limited financial possbilities.
One of my friends father died and left him a legacy ( is this the right word?)
Without me lnowing they got together again and after a few months they visit me.... he bought a new car and knowing I love to drive asked me to make a testdrive with it, so I knew what kind of car it was .... I did.. Together we drove for I think half an hour. When coming back to my place I want to give them something to drink. They asked me how I thought about the car and ofcourse I was very enthousiastic about it...
He looked me straight in the eyes and said. 'oke then you can have it...'
Of course I laught, Ofcourse I didn;t believe him.... I laught at him right in his face.... My other girlfriend told me it is treu and gave me a dossier. When I opened it I saw my name on all the papers... It was really my car!!!!
Now I am a poor person..never ever could I affort a car!! .He gave me the car for the next 5 years...( in may there are 2 more years to go!!)he pays for insurange and tax. testing the car and if necessary demage on the car... The petrol I have to pay myself.
You have to know, with the money I get to live on it is even hard to pay for the petrol, even when driving carefull and so on.
I aplied for gas money for my car. The only way I could get it..( 26 euro a month) is that I gave back my wheelchair. So, they say now, the choice was mine!!
I am happy with this money, don't get me wrong. But I never can take a walk, I can't drive in towncentre where the shops are, because the made this area car free...The market, where you can get cheap clothes and so on, is unavailable for me because I have to walk all the way....
that's my problem.
So knowing the wheelchair is for them a lot more expensive, they say one can only get one of those two options. Or the gasmoney Or the wheelchair.
Its's not logical at all and I am sure that people who have to decide on these things are al very healthy and have no idea what they are dealing with. So I am waiting now for the offical denial. I will go in defense then.
What they don't know is that i will get help from a nice lady who works for an other city in this same organization..So I have to wait and see now what will happen.
Talking about this car... It took 34 years before I ever got a present for a birthday or just like that....
When a friend gave me a present for the first time; I fainted....I really did!!

I think it is about 10 years ago another friend gave me a PA.. don''t kow if this is the right expression in english. it is a huge installation for proffesional musicians. A mixer, amlifier, boxes and... a kareoka set ... 450 songs for me to choose from. I fainted agian... So, this way I have recovered the demage done by not getting anything for all those years....

thinking of this story and about what you and Sapphira are sharing also...Your husband is so right! You deserve it....

I am telling about you two dear friends to people I know. Not telling what you are sharing on this's non of there business. Just telling about my friends overseas...And how I love them...
Lots of pinky hugs, love and smiles
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/08/08 03:10 PM

dear Sapphira,
It simply takes my breath away.....You; making dollhouses.... Where is this coming from....Would you have told me for 3 months ago I would meet people on this forum and share so much of live with them I wouldn't have believed it..This is almost impossible isn't it!!!! The smallest details are equell...........incradibble!!!

This thing we have on womanhood....;
You know what my name means?
Se= see... it's english so you need no explanation there whhawhahw
Gaya= woman...ancient woman, mother earth......
So the meaning of my name; See the woman....
Ofcourse there is a reason for that.
My 'real' name is different..that is.... I was named by people who hated me.. who made me ashamed of being part of that family, I was abused in avery possible way. The name is also full of shame and not 'mine' belonged to the victim I was before...
So I changed it!
There are lots of people around me for many years now who have no knowledge about my birthname..they all know me as being Segaya.
I didn't want to be a girl. I hated it, girls/women are vulnerable, can be taken adventage of, are easy to hurt, are not taken seriously. How many time in live I had to go out to get something done for me and my kids...ppff They just didn't hear me..Untill I put my fist on the table...act like a bad man... shout at them and boss them around THEN they noticed me being there..Nonsence!!!! I mean it the same way if I behave like a lady.
So 'See the woman' is for the outside world to get notice of me..And With the same reason for my inner world. I have to show my feelings, be gentle, because I am inside . This is why I admire Lady Crown so much in what she is doing ..Taking care of people who abused her and still staying so very close to whom she is within...

Sapphira I take it very seriously what you write about looking for an inner save place.
I have to tell you I am in contact with the administrator of this forum and with Jan to ask permission to share some things on the forum with you.
I thought I read something about not giving any therapy on the forum so I want to stay on the save side of this and respect the rules she made. She is a great person with a lot of respect for what is happening here with us and I am sure she will repley very soon...
Take it from me..I don't feel myself a therapist on this forum and sure not with you and Lady Crown, Jan and Dianne.... But the knowledge I have with my work is not disappeared when coming on the forum, is it!!! So be patient and soon I know what is allowed and what isn't... ( I agree with her rules on this...But maybe by knowing what I am talking about she can make an exeption?) We wait and see.....

I hope you see for yourselfves I am not distancing myself from the pain and the shame and the confusion and all that we are feeling... It's just like it is in a diffrent time scale for me now..but By God it took me long enough to get to this point....I am confinced that it will take a lifetime to get it right..But the actual hurt is gone , at least most of it...
With lots of love; Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/08/08 03:42 PM

Hi Segaya. Sapphira, Lady Crown and our new poster Lord Crown

I have been reading all your posts and watching you gain strength from each other, I feel so pleased for you all to get together and look into the life you had and are now able to relate to someone else who understands. I hope this gives you the confidence to move forward and enjoy the life you deserve.

Lady CrownÖwhen you told us about your mother being frail and you didnít want to face up to her left me feeling so impressed. Only a really strong person could still want to be so positive, you have soul! After your experience you are still so caring and I feel that adds to the nature/nurture debate.

Even though I havenít been posting please donít think Iím not listening, I just felt there was nothing I could (or needed) to add to your discussion.

Iím looking forward to hearing how things move forward for you all.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/08/08 04:12 PM

Hi Jan,
Nice to read from you again....
you really think we don't know you are reading...whahwa ofcourse we know. As we know Dianne is!!!
if this would be happening on one of my forums, I would stay quiet also.. But..I am missing your postings. This isn't ment to put any pressure on you.. it's just because what you have to say is always so true and supporting!! You are always very helpfull and clear abot things. So,I think I can say, I speak for all of us you mentioned, as I tell you that I would like of you to tell what your thoughts about things are....
Any way; I love what you are doing for this forum and for all the members writing or not! You are doing a great job by hosting this forum..( or how do you say it in english..I think you get what I mean!!)
Love Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/08/08 05:53 PM

dear Sapphira,

So, about what you have wrote yesterday....I recognized it on such a deep level...
I have an eating disorder. No, not anorexia or bulimia.... My eating disorder is because I just didn't learn to eat.
When I was just a few days old the sexual abuse started. So I learned that anything that enters the mouth will make you choke . It will prevent you from making noise, breath , feel, see and so on.
My mother didn't care enough to give us food on a regular basis.

Some 9 years ago I went to the docters again and I finally get a doctor who took me and my complains seriously. At first they thought I had leukimia ( is this the correct way of writing it?)This would mean I would die within a few months. I told the man I disagreed and that I was sure this was because of mall nutricion for decades. the complaines I had weren't changed over the years they just became worse!!
As a good docter is suppost to do, he tested me on leukemia anyway but also did the test for mall nutricion. Indeed, there was no nothing in my blood anymore; he even refused to call it blood. it was only collored red, that's it, were his words!

One of the things that happend afterwards is that I was invited to a childrens hospital by a team who was concerned with children with eating disorders, cavage( arteficial feeding program? They feed the children with a tube to the stomach) I was the first grown up with a backround who was simmilar...( oke; as you wish to call it) They wanted to talk to me about what problems I had bumpt on to in the years that went by before they took me serious. This was on emotionnaly, socially and fysically level. In return it gave me a change to ask them a lot of questions. They made it clear to me that a baby learns to eat in the first few months upto the age of 1 1/2 year with small change of this becoming 2 years. In this period of time the child has to get veried food so the body learns to recognize it and knows what to do to degest the food. There are other things needed for digesting broccolie or carrots! The body just needs a little bit of everything and learns real fast.
When the child is mall nutriced and doesn't get the veriety of food the body won't be able to learn it and recognize it after this time period.

So after I got to know this my 'war' with food came to an end...finnally!!!
It's diner for my children was like having a war going on inside of me..To feed them was like I would kill them. This is not said easely by me..It really felt that way..Every day uptill that diagnose!! I had to do what I had learned was fatal and do it on a daily basis for my children, only knowing with my head that this was the right thing to do....Everyday thinking of what to eat to nurish them, getting them veried food so they got all vitamines..pffff it took so much energy, But I can say from the bottom of my heart; They eat everyhting... there is nothing they don't like and my oldest son was about the age of 16 when he noticed my problems with food for the very first time...This age is old enough not to let him be effected by it.
My youngest son, noticed it long before that age and is able to enjoy food anyway and knows this is my problem,not his!!!
Ofcourse my body still suffers from all these years of mall nutricion, but with vitamine pills and injections I got better all the time. Now knowing what I know I don't need food for nutricion, I can eat whatever I want to without carring one bit about what I eat. I only eat for the energy and to satisfy my empty stomach...I know now that all my stomach ache was not pain but hunger.... so no more hunger for me!! So now eating is a small party everyday. I gave myself permission to eat what I want..there is no 'must' in it anymore..People who are eating with me (this happens rarely) and comment about it are dismissed by me and I tell them to deal with there own problems and to leave me in peace....If they keep on doing this I just tell them to be silent and I know I will never be in an eating situation with them anymore.. I am in charge now..And I won't let anyone spoil my new experience with food!!
Why do I tell this?

I don't know how young your son is...
It is importend that he gets healthy food and have a nice time eating with you. If that means you can't eat at the table and have a 'kodakmoment'...then don't eat at the table and have a 'kodakmoment' in your lounge. As long as you don't pass on, or as minimal as possible, of your own trauma's with and around food and eating or any other situation.

They will remember this the rest of there lives. And the importend thing is he looks back with a feeling of knowing you love him..Eating in the lounge or at the table are not the most importend things he will remember when grown up. What is importend is how the atmosphere is between the two of you.
If you feel very uncomfortable at the table he will feel it immidiatly and pick up on this in his behavior, ( aspecially being an autistic boy). So you feeling as comfortable as possible is much more importend in my opinion. ( I really want to know how you think about it after reading this...)
With all the stress and problems we had to deal with in our childhood and in this time in our lives , we have to make very conscious choices of what is importend for usmand the ones we love...It's easy for somebody else to judge about things, not knowing at all what they are talking about. My opinion is that with all the trauma's, we have an obligation to our children to bother them as minimal as possible with it. This means compromizing. If you have problems to shower a boy child the way to deal with it is to learn him as quickly as possible to do it himself and only check if it's done oke. If eating is a problem than look and be creative in finding a way to eat with the children and be good to yourself. This way all benefit from it..The child does and you do....Thank God we are in charge now and are able to make choises.....
I made a choice when my oldest son was around 3 or 4 years old..I stopped eating as he was around.... Somehow he didn't notice this till the age of around 16 as I mentioned before..( maybe because he is a Psychopath?) There is a lot wrong with this person, but he eats!!!!

I am thinking about what you said... When he was youner you rarely eat with him and read him stories...Oooo how great and creative is that!! A very good solution for that problem...But as they get older the problem surface again...
maybe you can make a deal with yourself? instead of eating a whole meal with him, maybe you can eat on a different time? Just eating something small as he is eating to make it a nice time for him?.. making small talk so his attention is not by your plate?
Make it into a structual time for the two of you...i think that is more importend then you being anxious with the food or how and where to eat it...
Afterwards on your own there will be time for you to eat. Where you eat and how you eat is not that importend this way and in time it can take the weight off the eating problem...maybe like me, in time you can start liking to eat a bit....
being creative in bringing up your child as 'normal' as possible without the stress we went through is more importend than the form we like it to be..So eating on the table is not as nice for him as eating in the lounge..... That is creative thinking..And I do think you do well making that choice!!

You wrote;
This never happened with me, only with my brother and now his two sons. I used to feel so bad for him. I wish I could have protected him, and I did against other people

ooo how familiar!!!
No my borthers weren't the abuse victims, I was. But they suffered from fysical abuse also ( less then I)and ofcourse from the tension in the house and the foodthing.

In my work I help people especially with sexual abuse problems in any form it can come.
I say this to tell you I know what you mean...
But you said she didn't do this to you... Maybe not taking the photos but in the other ways she did.....
Is this sexual abuse also? Yes it is!
Its sexualy harasment, Ūt makes you anxiuos throughout the days and be aware of your every move... Its hard to see where one thing starts and the other thing stops, but take it from me; if everything is right in a childs live and 'only' this would be is named sexual abuse!

I admire you taking sides with you nephews. You are so right!! if the child has the initiative it's oke..But never the adult..Is the child in charge and starts feeling uncomfortable it has to be able to say so and go as he/she pleases...
The adult always has to behave in a way the child can feel protected, save and comfortable. If not the child is never to blame..the adult is!!
Adults around children always have to keep an open eye to what happens. Mothers have to protect there children, not asuming the fathers/brothers/grandfathers and uncles are faithful and say 'my husband will never do this kind of thing'...The same thing goes for the other side..themen have to be aware also..All women/men think that way and so many of us are victimised because of this wrongful and blind trust.
Do I expect all men/women to be bad?..No I don't, but I do know people aren't all that good always... So I think it's better to be aware than to hide in own comforting thinking....Better to be save than sorry!!
Thank God you are aware and keep your son save... This is such a relieve for me ...I am so proud, you are such a pure woman, dispite of what you have been through. And like Lady Crown you know how to stay close to your inner core and relay on it!!
And yes you are right..if any adult is doing such things to a child they have to be imprisonned..Ohh if I would be the judge!!!pff they have to be real happy I am not!!!
it's the same thing you feel isn't it...The didn't break us!! Our lives made us strong women who know exactly what we want and how to get it. We will not hurt anyone on purpose but we will go many steps further than other people to try to help others in surviving. I Say GO GIRL as you say to be the save haven for others, I say the same thing by your planes to go out on your mission....But don't forget about the most importend person in your live; YOU
with lots of love,hugs, smiles and good feelings;

( this again is a very long posting but there is so much to say, to share... as I said to somebody else today; read it as a book if nesseccary... put it aside and later you can read on..I have real difficulty by wrinting smaller bits because of the language thing also.. so excuse me for this long message)
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/09/08 01:23 AM

Dear Lady Crown,

Ohhh, I had my head in my hands reading about your 'outing'. I can just imagine! Really I can. How much easier to laugh in hindsight:)But at least you do. I don't know if it's me but I felt as though there was a humour coming back to us recently in the posts. It's amazing how a 'little' reflection from others can lift our spirits so much.

And thank you for your comment about the shame and suffering. I heard of books about shame and I knew it was there, but I could never connect to it, like say, I feel ashamed because of xyz. Even without this, now knowing - really knowing - that there are people amongst whom I belong and to whom I don't need to explain and who, in fewer words than said, know exactly the particular's particular depth and it's particular outcome, this is so releasing of the shame. I'm sure one day I will look back and see what it was, but it's ok for now as it is. What I am also realising is that we really do come to know ourselves with others. No matter what efforts I have made, there is a limit to how much I can know myself in isolation. Perhaps having been alone for so long it is easy to believe I can do it all alone. But listening to your stories and the sharing, and feeling this being absorbed inside, I have to say there is no price for this. Really, when Segaya said "Be with yourself" she was saying "You have done nothing wrong. You need care. And you are ABLE to take care of yourself." Not going to be with myself, which is how it always was, despite my best efforts, was kind of saying "There is something wrong with you and so I must keep myself separate from you". hence the shame. This as we learned. Somehow her words got in and now being with myself I am, as you say, understanding that I am suffering, and not that there is something wrong with me. And with the name, psychopathy, I have a context for that suffering that is understandable to me and is understood by you who have also suffered because of it. I guess this isn't new and is probably obvious but I'm putting it together. Now the word 'shame' is actually starting to mean something - just as a begin to drop it off. Mmm...Thank you for being proud of me! Thank you for saying this. I will sit with this 'word' and let it soak in. It is a new step for me. But thank you Lady Crown.

Lots of love,
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/09/08 01:58 AM

Dear Segaya,

I have this and your following post and first I want to respond to this one, briefly. There is so much in your posts and you have touched so, well, I will sit with that in the quiet of this night to reply.

Segaya. I loved your name the very first time I saw it! It is beautiful, strong, rich and elegant. I found myself saying it over in my head. It has such a lovely sound. It also made me wonder and think of Gaia - as we say. And yes, it is the same. I know exactly what you are saying! Exactly. Get ready - here comes another one! Sapphira is the name I am about to add to my 'real' name. And my real name, in my language means exactly the same as yours - the mother earth. I won't write it here, but one day you will see it and know. Soooo many coincidences. It's awesome! Like you I changed my name. The one I was given was an English translation but I starting using the original the day I left home. My mother refused to call me by this name for over 20 years. Except for ONE time. 4 years ago I was about to take legal action for her harrassment, her FLOODS of mail and abuse after she had been formally asked not to make any contact. of course she ignored the request until, by a stroke of luck, I was able to expose her in an email she sent me. When she finally realised that if she continued to pursue ANY contact with me she would face a legal battle, and lose, she finally realised I really meant business. So she sent me one last letter, addressed to me in THE NAME, saying, basically, that she formally disowned me and had cut me from her will etc. And I had to wait 20 years for that! When she finally, FINALLY realised that she couldn't squeeze anything more out of me she dropped me like a tonne of hot bricks. Ha! On to the next one, I'm sure. But my point was, yes the real power of a name. Blessed be!
Love, Sapphira
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/09/08 05:16 AM

Dear Sapphira,
I have only a short time now..I will repley later..But..Blessed be.. says it all!!
hihihi It's an art to read between the lines isn't it!!!
Thank you so much...Love Segaya

no no, I have to add something anyhow...I have to go to sleep, like always in the afternoon, but this is so much in my head now!

I knew that all our names are special..Sapphira is the juwel isn't it..and you are!!
Lady Crown..wauw.. she is The Queen of Hearts ..And for me Segaya is a name full of honour, dept, recognision and elegance indeed...
Strainge isn't it;... little people so hurt ,so demaged and we all choose names like that!!!
Somehow it says someting about our inner strenght and the way we know we are. Dispite of what has happend,
Love again, again and again...Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/09/08 05:00 PM

dear sapphira and Lady Crown
You are a brave person!!
It took me years before I really dare to change my name. And now, as I said before, some people even refuse to call me by my name..They only want to use the old tells me a lot about these persons I have to add. I think it's a lack of respect. Like they have something to say about it..ppff I don't think so..Non of them, when asked, can give a good reason for not using the new name..They just say I am crazy and they refuse to be crazy too...
oke, then please let me be crazy....

'What's in a name?' people say; ENERGY is in a name!..And by changing the name you change so many things , in and outside the person you are....
When you recived that letter you most likely must have had a feeling of victory!!!
Ohh I can imagine how you must have felt. When I read it, I had to smile because it does tell a lot about who you are and how she is....

I admire the way you handle your mother too, Like I do with Lady Crown.
And reading how the two of you cope with al this situations tells me how lucky I am in my situation that I don't see them, I don't hear them and luckely they all live far away from me..( I heard USA is big... So let me say, for us this is far away!!)

I can't make a picture of it in my head even, me being in the same house with anyone of them...

To be honest; It took me many, many years to let go....
The day I last saw my mother I paniced. It took me 2 or 3 months to realize that all the pain I was expecting wasn't there anymore. This didn't mean my longing for A mother was gone...That took me so many more years. And when seeing an adult daughter with her mother doing they're shopping, it hurt like hell. After I saw such a scene I was fysically sick.

Sometimes you get the chance to meet some people who are really interested in how such a relationships looks like. Some 15 years ago, I was still in contact with my oldest brother, his girlfriend tried to understand the situation we grew up in.( this was approxamatly 10 years after I last saw 'her')
She asked very deep questions; 'How would you react if you find out now that your mother is seeing a psych; All that happend he would say; is because she has a disorder and a lot of trauma's .He asks you to come and talk to her...'

I was so very suprised by the reaction of my brother... he immidiatly said he would go, forgive all and everything and even started to cry thinking of that possibillity.
She looked at me and asked the same question... I had to think..Not because I didn't know what I would do, But it was more that I didn't want to say it out loud because of what she ( the grilfriend) would think of me....( I learned a bit since then!) I answered anyway;' No I won't go, she is to screwed, to smart, she manipulates everybody and only wants attention. She doesn't understand the meaning of the word love and she is not congerned with anyone else but herself...She will act, and people will believe her, and we, I , will be victimized again'.

2 or 3 years after this conversation somebody else asked me an other importend question; What would you do when your mother wants to contact you ,because she is dying and asked to see you one more time?'
This was more difficult because this would be final.
It took me a week. This is because I do care about people ( in general)and no matter what...she is still a person... And a dying person is something special...
I really struggeld with this question, I thought of it over and over again. After a week I said;
No I won't go to see her when she asks me to come.This shocked the woman who asked me that question, she has a nice family and they are all very close...what does she know about situations like ours!! (I have to add; By then I didn't see my mother almost for 15 years... now this is 25 years)

I explained;
We do, and in the past we did not have any relationship what so ever like a mother and her daughter ought to have... So as being her daughter there is nothing to say to her.

As one person to the other; If I would have met her, or a person like her, later on in live, I know I wouldn't have liked her and I know that I wouldn't want her in my live like a friend or something..So she wouldn't be in my live like that aslo..Somebody who is not in my live won't ask me to come on the dying bed I have nothing to say to such a person, simply because i wouldn't know her even.

If I think of this in a spiritual way; Lets say we are al souls. Let's say; we make appoitments as souls to live our lives together with a purpose to learn from each other....
then I will deal with her after we both aren't here anymore, On the level where the souls are.....

I have to say... I am not sure the last reason is a good one..I simply tell now what happend so many years ago....

I do think these queations are importend. This is why I understand you so well, Lady Crown, I do think this is a reason for you to do the things you do..You really gave it a lot of thoughts and you do know what and why you are doing it.
I do understand how hard it is. I read your words and feel the pain, I relate to what you are saying in dept,I only ask myself the question..would I be that brave, would I do what you are doing, Would I be brave enough to do as Sapphira has done...
I can't answer that question. non of them..I am not in that situation. They..( who call themselves my family) don't look for any contact either so the question doesn't exist really.
But thinking of the things you are both sharing on this forum does make me think a lot about you and the force behind such a discision!!

As said;it took me years to mourn about them...They are still alive which makes it more difficult.. But I can say now that for more then 10 or 12 years now I am in peace with not having a family, not having a mother. I wish you both the same feeling of peace .
Love segaya
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/10/08 03:08 AM

Dear Segaya,
I am asleep on my feet. My son has been unwell. Just wanted to say that I am thinking of you and once my boy is a bit better and I a rest I will write. Just wanted you to know I will reply soon.

Love Sapphira
Posted by: nan46

Re: General Discussi - 03/10/08 10:35 AM

I am a mother of a 17 (almost 18) year old daughter. We began having problems with her at the age of 15 (as far as we know). She began sneaking out her bedroom window and at that point her sexual behavior began. There have been so many things involved in her life it is hard to touch on them individually. At one point her father and I took her to couseling. She is currently seeing a psychiatrist that treats the medical issues only. This is basically for bi-polar issues.

My largest concerns are with her constant dishonesty, lack of sexual control, and feeling no remorse for things she has done. I feel an urgency to help her because she turns 18 in April and that opportunity may very well be taken away from me at that point.

I read the guidelines for a psychopath and her personality and actions appear to fit 17 of the 20. She is driven to have a male (boyfriend) in her life at all times and manipulates them with sex. If she decides to date another she never lets go of the one until she firmly has the other. She also has to win. By that I mean if a previous boyfriend finds a girlfriend she has to try and get her foot back in the door and push the issue until he breaks up with his current girlfriend. She may or may not do this while seeing another boy.

In the past week her father and I caught her texting sexual content to another boy (and from the text we feel she has probably had phone sex with him) while she is committed to another man 7 years older. She has told him he is the love of her life and once she turns 18 that are to get matching tattoos, have babies, and live happily ever after.

She is NOT from a broken family. She is a middle child. We are not wealthy but comfortable and she has, or had when they have not been revoked, electronics such as cell phones, ipods, etc. She is also supplied a car to drive to school in. We have disciplined her with revoking privileges when she disobeys or is caught doing things such as sneaking out at night.

I need help. I need to know if my daughter has psychopathic behavior. If so, can she be helped? Although I am taking her to a psychiatrist for her medical issues, she refuses any type of counseling. She stated that it did no good and she only told them what they wanted to hear.

Please help.
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/10/08 01:58 PM

Sear Segaya,

You are right, it does say a lot about these people when they won't call you by your chosen name. They have a lack of respect and do not credit us with our own agency and self determination. To me, not calling us by our chosen named self is the same as not allowing us to see our selves in the mirror. They have a deep resistance to our BEing ourselves and will try to destroy this however they can. I have to ask this though, is this what one would describe as being sadistic? Or is this about control 'only'?

You know I keep close to myself now. And it is a big learning and a big comfort! I really do understand how really ordinary things can be such big learning curves. I was thinking last night about how rich and 'full' your posts are. I don't mean as in the amount of words, but as in the amount of insight and understanding, and an image of the Cornucopia came to mind, a symbol from my culture of the love from Mother Earth. And then I think back to you having to learn to eat. It amazes me, in more ways than one. I do not have the words to describe the feeling that this gives me. What can one say when a mother is so empty as to fail her child in that way? And food is just one form of feeding, although THE form, of course. And what amazes me, and reassures me, and inspires me, and keeps me determined, and makes me reach back for my strength, is that you are who you so are, and live as you so do. Even from an ordinary, acceptable life, to be the person you are would be something. But to think that 'ordinary' and 'acceptable' is so NOT where you came from, makes who you are such an achievement. In my mind, you are such a total opposite of what you were 'given'. Instead of empty you are so full, to me, like the Cornucopia brimming over with nourishment, vitality, and wholesome treats from the Earth.

And your wise words, go BE with yourself. When you said to me, don't do to yourself what they did, at first I was a bit shocked because I really couldn't see how I might be still treating myself as they had. But now I see what you mean. I also see that she not only separated me and isolated me from my family, my friends, opportunities I was offered, so much of my life, but also from myself. I was scared to be with myself. I was terrified of myself as one would be of an enemy, when all along I was running from the one who ought to have been my best friend. I know I needed to be close to myself, but there wasn't a safe inner place to be. It is gradually dawning on me what this exile from even myself has meant. Already returning to myself in this way has made a lot of difference. Now I am sensing something else. And along with this is woven in your words about my mother's sexual abuse. In some way I feel I've been 'smoked' and by that I mean as though covered in a fog. Lost in a fog. There were things she did, such as what I mentioned, that I did speak of to a professional but got lost because there was never the reaction, the anger, the 'this is not right' that there is with the males who abused me. Having thought much about it since your post I feel that it was in the too hard basket, really. Not that they didn't want to help, but this kind of behaviour from a mother pushes right to the far edge, in fact so much of her bevaiour elicited the same kind of blank double-take, and some people just won't and can't know how to deal with that, let alone help me in that place. So I was left there.

Actually I was quite in awe of the fact that I actually put it out there, but I knew that a) I would not be judged, and b) that there was a pretty darn good chance you would understand. And I was right! Thing is, the amazing thing for me is I felt free enough to say, she was like this and she was like that. I feel I have this now because here, the context or basis for her bevaiour is one that is known and understand. Until that, nothing I ever said was believed, responded to, accepted as being her problem and not mine. You know how it is. The worm is turning, as they say. All these exiled experiences and feeling can come home now. And I'm at home now enough to take them in. I have to tell you: My ex-husband came round the other day and he asked me what was happening. How do you mean, I asked. What's all the excitement, he said. What excitement, I asked. You tell me he said. I thought about it. Excitement, I wondered. I just feel restless, I said, pacing through the house, putting away a bunch of things I was tidying up. Why, what's happening, he asked again. Nothing! I said, because 'nothing' was. Ok, and off he went. But I have been thinking. Maybe he's right. Perhaps it is excitement, I'm not sure. But what I do feel is a low rumbling thunder off in the distance, behind the hills. Sometime soon there's going to be a downpour. Something is brewing within me and it has to do with breaking out, I hope. Because saying what I did, as I did, was the first foot out of a mental prison. You see it for what it was. You shone a light through the fog. One day soon I am going to step out of the mental fog some more and also see it, or connect with it in some way, because I want to bring that part of myself home too. I am afraid to say just how important your response has been because I don't want it to go away. Not that it will but it's that magical thinking, magical fear thing. I just cannot say any more - just wanted to let you know this is were I am. I'm fine. I hope this makes sense. Yes, I am coming to see that there are two sides to life.

Lots of love and gratitude!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/10/08 05:19 PM

Hello Nan46

Welcome to the forum, how long has your problem been going on? Although you say it started at 15 but with the benefit of hindsight can you now look back any think of any other behaviour before this age that would alert you to a problem with her?

There could well be plenty of other explanations other than psychopathy for your daughterís behaviour so it might be better to explore those areas as well.
As far as Iím aware the red flags of psychopathy are there well before 15 years old so that is a positive sign. Also a lot of teenagers go through emotional turmoil and could well tick many of the boxes for psycopathy so could you describe the characteristics you are aware of?

We are not able to diagnose any disorders so all we can do is share experience, compare situations and point people to any research and information we have come across that might be relevant.

Please donít presume the worst, when you are able to, could you tell us more about your experiences and how you have coped so far.

There are so many kind, caring people here who will be there to support you as we all know how important it is to be able to share a problem with an objective but sympathetic person.

Sometimes it helps just to be able to open up and put things in writing so please feel free to share anything you need to say. We donít have any problems with discussing matters that are normally not up for public discussion with family and friends.

I hope you feel comfortable enough to do this but only in your own time. You may find it useful to compare your experiences with other parents here on the forum. You could start by looking up all my posts and that will link you into other parents.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/10/08 07:30 PM

Dear Sapphira,

It funny. I had to look up what Cornucopia means...It's from the greek mythology of Amalthea who brought up Zeus by letting him be fed by a goat. As a thank you gift, he gave her this Cornucopia.

Speaking about dept in our conversation!!

There is so much more to it, than only is expressed in words!!

This feeling of plenty is with me ever since we have met. The three of us in ,as said, our little pinky triangle across the oceans, or ; our pinky girlgroup....How beautiful...
But you give me too much credit. I have been to all hell and back to be where I am now, and you know what? I said before I see the same things in you and Lady Crown. All of us are beating the odds aren't we!!!
I know so well the feeling of not belonging, the disregard to myself, the punishment I gave to me, starting the day I fled my 'home'..I was all alone and had no help from nobody. If it became to 'big' for me to handle, I distanced myself from the feeling by becoming more objective. I asked myself questions over and over and over and over again... Training myself this way to get other information in my head and feelings... I asked myself; What if this would happen to a dear friend..would I agree, would I go along with it, would I be as angry as I am now with myself.. would I be as hard as I am towards myself, would I do this and would I do that...same thing with feelings...Would I be sad if something like this would happen to a friend...When the answer was and had to be yes...I sit with myself and explore why, how, who and bit by bit...slowly, I got my answers...
In my feelings it took me forever to get some answers, to become more of the person I was inside..But looking back it wasn't all that long. ( compared to whatI see with other people)
The inner strenght it took, I find with you and Lady Crown also. Like looking in the famous mirror. All this talk between us, makes me to think back and analyze what I have done. how I did it and what the good and the not so good where in it. Did I do wrong? I never could do it wrong..Not doing anything about it would have been bad..As long as we try we are in a flow and if something is not working that well it will bring us to a way to make it right anyway. Energy has to start flowing and energy is always going forward...never backwards. Althought, I have to admit, it seems that way sometimes indeed.
You know the feeling. But if you look back on those moments in times in the passed where things seem to have gone all turned out for the good didn't it..
I once heard something I want to share with you ;

Live is like a peace of ambroidery. We look at it from the wrong side. We see all things going over each other and through each's a hugh mess...see the picture ( this language isn't mine still hwhawha)
God is looking from the good side and sees a beautiful crown... it's a collorful, shining, wonderful peace of art. ( and there is our Lady again hihihii)

This is what I allways keep in mind. We don't see it all. Have little use of our brain and most of us think to know it all....We know so little. We don't sit on the mountain of all knowledge, We don't have all the power and even though somehow we have to know this, we ( in general) think we can say things like.; this is not possible, that desease is incurable, it's not possible to recover from those trauma's...And who are we to say this??...EVERYTHING is possible...I lived living it... I will tell more about all the wonders i have had...
So my message is..let no one, and no thought or feeling withhold you ever from becoming who yu are deep within. You are able to get it to the surface, You are there already ...only the flesh is slow...

Passed, future and present are only excisting in our heads, in our minds, it's how we are programmed. I think it's all here on the same moment in time.. Like a road that goes from one city to the other. in between is another city. The first city is the passed, the city we are in is the present and the next city is the future. it's all there , it's ready for us... the only thing is ..we aren't there yet!
So the time you are completely healed is there already, you only have to go there. Going there takes time....So dear Sapphira, maybe you can look at it this way.. Take your time and let nobody and nothing stop you from your destiny...You didn't in the passed as proven so you can do it!

Now what you say about this profesional that didn't want to go in to the things you told about your mother.
I don't know about the USA, ( other then I see on Oprah) But the Netherlands are progressive, they say, about all kind of taboes...ppff Wishful thinking.
Probably we are about a lot of things, but this sexual abuse issue is difficult.
Still men who are abused are in the dark. Still the ones abused by the mother are very alone. Still there is little knowledge about sexual child abuse in general.
Yes, people do discuss it when something is on the news...It's oke as long as it is on TV or in the newspapers, and all think to be experts... but this doesn't mean we are woke up and alert...
As a holistic therapist, specialist in helping sexual abused people, I see a lot that is so painful. Professioals who are in denial so they don't have to be confronted. It's much the same as with this thing about Psychopath's and the mental health care. If you don't aknowledge what is wrong than you don't have to bother changing anything, do you!!! This happens even more if the mother is involved. Mothers who abuse their children are never without the right to see and visit them..Somehow mothers have this holy light around them.. and people won't believe it's possible they are the agressors.
So professionals are scared of what people like us might tell, This makes them deny what could be wrong. And we, the ex- victims are on our own again. With this difference; they gave us hope.Hope that there is a way out,there is a way to recover and there is a way to live this 'normal'live we so long for... And we lose our hope...

Being on our own means we have to be inventive and creative ourselves. Again Sapphira..think of it...Would this happen to somebody you love,your son, your nephews... Would you think this is normal?..would you be in the fog asking yourself is this sexual abuse?...No you won't ..You prooved it already , You told your brother an he stopped it. You really did something !! You protected your son..if this is all true for everybody has to be objectively true for yourself as well!!!!!!!!!
Going over things that happend in the passed and make them actual again, this way can be so helpful in aknowlegdeging the pain,the uncertainty, the fear, the not knowing,the blaming and so on.

You don't need anybody to do so for you. My experience is even that it doesn't matter. What matters is your feeling about you, How do you see yourself.
If I compare it to something much smaller in live;
I buy a dress and I am not sure it fitts me well.. I ask a friend and she asures me it's oke..Do I believe this?; No, I don't believe her..The doubt is in my head and heart already. I will believe myself if I see for myself it fitts me well and I feel good inside about it..I don't even need to ask anybody what they think about it..
So thinking that way; It only matters how you feel yourself. Don't let anybody be a judge over you or your live..What do they know?..they miss al kind of information and we can't give it to's too big, too much and too difficult to understand if you didn't have been there.

I was smiling on what you said about your ex husband...Ofcourse it is excitement!!! I feel it and I bet you Lady Crown is too. This contact we have is so uplifting.( is this the right way to say it in english?) I find myself with a smile on my face during the day...If I read another posting of the two of you I am smiling while laying in my bed thinking over what happend that day! And I bet many others who are reading our postings are too....

this feeling is so strange for us( it is for me anyway) that it is hard to recognize maybe. It gives so much energy, so much insight,it's so uplifting and we did not know a lot of these things before did we...

Ohh by the way; cleaning the house and tidying up is usualy the thing what happens if our inside is cleaning and tidying up.....The other way around workes also very well. If you need it, and it feels like chaos inside ...Start to clean/tidying your house and you will feel things inside will clean simultaneously ( it's just a tip I can give you) don't work overtime doing so, it won't take much to start the process going!!

Lots of love Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/11/08 02:29 AM


Could I just say psychotic and psychopathic are not synonymous. Psychosis refers to mental illness that makes the sufferer delusional. Psychopaths do not suffer from delusions.

I do agree that many teenagers have suffered some emotional trauma that sends them off track but they are afraid to share this with a parent or even friends. I know a young lady who suffered a severe trauma in her teens and went completely off the rails and it was a few years before her family knew what she had been through.
The only reason she opened up was because she had been drinking heavily which had become her way of self medicating and her guard was down.
She had also become very distant and stayed away from home as much as possible, she also let herself go and her bedroom looked as though it had been trashed. It was as though she wanted to live like a Ďlow lifeí

After she had let her problem out things began to turn around although it was slow progress at first.
She is now the most delightful woman and has a brilliant career, partner and a lovely son. She is so caring and a wonderful daughter and sister to her siblings. She is back to being the person she was but even stronger.

I do hope you start finding some answers that allow you to identify what has happened to change your daughter.

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/11/08 03:50 AM

Dear Segaya,

Yes, 'uplifting' is the word:) You make me smile! And you are right. This thing about approval. No. Only I need to approve of and for myself. You said you felt a irreversable change and I feel it too and when I hear what you say, I don't need anyone else's approval, I know that I have actually passed that point of change. Sometimes when I read our posts I get goose bumps. There seems to be little slack to cut in the movements we make. From such poverty to such fullness. From so downtrodden to so uplifted. From so controlled to so free. Anything in the middle? I don;t think so. Yes, these are the rewards. Having been stretched so far and not been beaten, it all takes on a new perspective. I am drawing strength from our talks and I feel a ground beneath my feet now. This approval thing is very interesting to me because I see I was a slave of that inner hope for a long time. This is all really a major growing up rite of passage, I suppose. Finally understanding my mother I am coming to understand my self. Not bound to her in this, but freed from her, stepping outside my being solely a daughter to becoming a real woman, psychologically. So these outworn ideals and hopes and subserviences can all be let slip away now. Time to truly stand on my own. And as I BE with myself, each day I feel happier and my confidence to sustain myself will increase. It amazes me. Yes, I look back too and see how I accepted the limits and limited perspectives. But now having company of other free spirits, that is finally changing. As you said, it takes time to grieve and really let go. But you know, all this is meaningful pain now. It's not endless, vague, unidentified PAIN. It now is a birthing pain that lasts a time then produces something new to go forward with. I really do appreciate your thoughts and comments on the abuse. It is so refreshing to hear someone say these things. And I agree. It just amazes me how freeing it is to me when you speak of these things and of your life as you do about yourself. All for one and one for all. That's how it feels. Your strength and conviction is a lead for me. I am so pleased and proud to have you and your wonderful 'voice'. It so makes sense that you are a singer - like in the old, old way - not just making a lovely sound for pure entertainment alone, but communicating something of importance, like a herald, you know? Yes, I will go over. As this kind of crisis passes and I get used to what I have learned about my mother I will be able to settle into this new understanding and just BE. And thankfully these messages will be around to review and absorb and appreciate over time.

Lots of love, Sapphira
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/11/08 05:45 PM

hai Nan,
It's always difficult isn't it to have a child with problems. It's so painful to see all dreams shattered and broken in peaces. We have high hopes when carring them and when they are born they seem so lovely.
When did the problems start with your daughter if I may ask?
I can't imagine that the first thing that went wrong was her climbing out the bedroom window? Where there no signs before that?
What you discribe is promescue behavior and I don't think only ps, has this as a symptom. There are a lot of things that can go wrong in a childs live and it can be it has nothing to do with the situation at home.. No matter how hard we try to protect our children...5 minutes on the schoolyard and they have a trauma for live... So maybe you can try to find if something happend to your daughter. Sometimes girls have these kind of behavior also after a sexual herasment forinstands. I don't say this happend to her,don't get me wrong.
I only try to look for other possibillities then this Psychopath thing. I hope and pray your daughter is not a Psychopath'. If she is, its is better to know about it. But it's hard to tell if somebody is, just on a note and a few words. And like Jan told you already. we can't make a diagnoses. the hard thing is a psychiatrist won't either....We are on our own and that makes it very hard. Luckely we found this ofurm and I found and got a lot of support here from the other members.

I have a son who is a Psychopath. I can relate that way with other parents. My parents where also Psychopath's and I knew this for a long time already but just realized it..( does this make sense to you? I just didn't think about htem for decades now ...)

I am curious about your daughter and her previous behavior. Was she a difficult child or did this behavior start in the 'fire age'?( puberty)
Did she have any of the sympotoms you read in the checklist before? Or simmilar?

You don't have to answer any questions if you don't want to. Here we are with people who care and are involved. But the importend thing is you feel at ease to tell ....
Greetings Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/11/08 05:59 PM

Dear Sapphira,
I wish I had your way with words...They are poetic!!!
And exactly as I want to disribe it and can't...
Yes You are a free spirit. And you are a CORNUCOPIA indeed. Full with all goodies that can come out now and will spurprise you a great deal...
It's so rewarding to see that with little help you , in the same situation, see everything in a different perspective now...You where so ready to move on....And you do!!...
Saying you want to move on is one thing...doing it is a totally different thing , take it from me..I have seen it happen to so many of us... And some will go the long way and some go back in there little cocon too afraid to break free.
The ones who come out and dair to see what is really happening go so incradibly fast in they're process that I am amazed everytime I see and feel it happen.
I am a lucky lady; I saw what this process did for me AND on top of it all I see it with other women too. No, I rarely see this with men. A) they are not very enthousiastic to really workthey're way out, and B) they didn't learn how to deal with emotions ( even less then we did)
The strenght I saw and see in women is unbelieveble... And I feel it in your words and in the words spoken by Lady Crown..And it makes me so happy.
Through your pain you feel your own strenght and this is so beautifull. Live takes care of us, it really does..We only have to accept it!! The horn of the goat is full with everything we need!!!
take it , it's yours ,and yours's a gift!! ( if you know what I mean......)
love , hugs and a big,big smile Segaya
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 03/12/08 02:04 PM

Hi, friends,

I just wanted to touch base with you and let you know I am having a severe setback, or "flareup", as my psychiatrist says, of my anxiety and depression. I didn't want you to think I had disappeared, but I am not doing well. Please keep me in your thoughts for a few days, I think of you always and am glad you are "out there" for me. Much love, Lady Crown
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/12/08 02:44 PM

My dear pinky Lady Crown...
'keep me in your thoughts for a few days???' even more as you are already ??..IMPOSSIBLE!!!!
Thank you for lettings us know you are still out there and still working to get better.
(hint; Have you ever heard of the Bach flower remedy?? I think you can look it up on the internet)
I have to let you now that last week when I dyed my hair I didn;t use shampoo at all. This morning was the third time I washed it only CO and I have to say...My hair looks and feels better everytime I do it like this. I am so glad with this tip you gave thank you so much!!!
If there is anything we can do for you to help you through those difficult times than please tell us or share or shout or cry...we are here in all those situations....
Love, hugs and girly hello's; Segaya
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/12/08 06:05 PM

Dear Lady Crown,

Thank you so much for letting us know how things are with you. I had noticed your not being about and was wondering about you. I'm glad to know just how things are for you, because we can let you know that, yes, we are certainly thinking of you and will be even more so, holding you in our hearts, wishing the best for you. As Segaya said, please let us know if we can help. We are here, not really far away at all.
Lots of love and sweet thoughts for you.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/13/08 03:31 PM

My dear Pinky Girlgroup,( and ofcourse all others who might read this!)

last week I told I had written to the administrator of this forum to ask permission to go a bit furhter in telling things about how to cope with all that has happend.
I got word back today and Dianne is giving permission to do so.
I opened a new topic for this. You can find it on the general discussion also.
I forget alreay how I called it; I think...There is a way out!
So hope it will work for others like it worked for me....
( This is just the first part of a whole lot of it!!!!)

( Sapphira, I think you know this step already , I think I read it in your post...Next step is espacially for you!)
Love Segaya
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 03/17/08 08:24 PM

Hi, everyone.

I should say Happy St. Patrick's Day first! Gelukkige St. Patrick Dag, Segaya!

I'm sorry I've been absent for so long. I've been having a really rough time, so bad I couldn't even write about it. It's not that anything actually happened at first, but somehow I fell into a spiral of terrible anxiety, a brutal migraine, and complete insomnia, all at the same time. None of the painkillers would work, and the intensity didn't diminish at all, it stayed at an excruciating level the whole time. I was a nervous wreck and even after the migraine finally left, days later every time I thought about it, and how scared I was it would come back, I started crying, which I'm not allowed to do because it kicks in another headache. So I didn't have any real emotional relief from it either. Sometimes you just want to lie down on the bed and cry your eyes out, and I'm not allowed to do that. So I don't really have any outlets for my feelings, and I'm not the "break the dishes" type. Ughh, just writing about it again is making my eyes fill with tears.

Then, I got another battering from my family. My mother said my Psychopath sister wanted everyone for Easter dinner, and she has to go because my sister "sounds down". I said "What about everyone getting together for a short drive or something instead?" Of course that was a no, because it was my idea. If I had invited everyone for dinner, I would have gotten a no. My Psychopath sister keeps lying to my mother and telling her she calls me and I don't answer the phone, and no matter what I say, my mother never believes me and keeps commenting on it. I keep telling her my sister is not calling but she just ignores what I say. The next day I called my brother and asked if I could borrow a photo album in a week or two, to make copies of the pictures for a project I have in mind. My Narcissistic brother didn't even let me finish the first sentence; he said to wait, put the phone down, and went running to my mother. Mind you, he is 55 and she is 87! She got on the phone and said that I had upset him, and to stop asking for the album, and telling me not to demand things overnight, etc. etc. She refused to put him back on, because "he was upset" and she doesn't know if she wants me to have it. I told her I didn't ask for it overnight, and why is she even involved? Then I asked why she had been able to loan it to my Psychopath sister at Christmas, and she said, "Well, that was different." What makes it different? Because it's me asking.

So I was kind of shocked after this, although I shouldn't be, but I just sat there in a daze, unable to believe what I had just heard. It wasn't what she said, although that was rude and insulting, but the tone of her voice, of both their voices. Just contempt and annoyance and resentment. The good thing, if there can be a good thing, is that for once I wasn't wondering what I had done wrong; I was furious that they would talk to me like that and treat me like that. I was so angry my husband had to take me out for a drive. (He drove.) All I was talking about (not that I got the chance to finish my sentence) was picking up an album, slipping it in a shopping bag, and handing it to me. What's with all the drama? You would think I had asked for some blood, or for the whole family to go through the album.

So I haven't talked to them since. The next day I had to go over to drop off some food I had prepared for my mother, and the first thing she said was, "I told you you were supposed to call before you came over." Not a word of apology or even a mention of the phone call, just another criticism. I walked in, said, hi and bye, put the food in the fridge and walked out. I haven't talked to them since. She called me yesterday to ask if I was going to my Psychopath sister's for Easter, and I said "No." Just No. Not explaining, not reasoning, not talking. And now she's acting all hurt about it. And my Psychopath sister still has not called, to invite us or anything, which is fine because I don't even want to be around these people for one second.

I spent years of my life with this happening and I always would end up sitting alone, wondering what I had done wrong, what should I have said, when should I have asked, feeling guilty and horrible. In the past few years I have come to realize that it doesn't matter if it is a spool of thread or a pencil. No matter what, their resentment of me is so powerful that any little request or idea I have is an enraging affront to them. I think of how the two times I had serious injuries after two accidents, and was alone, and once when I was ill, and had no doctor or medicine and I needed help. I called my mother and she said I was fine, and just find someone to stay with me for a couple of nights. No one ever came or sent anything or called to check on me, and I was six hours away. I could have died.

I remember groping my way back down the hallway to my room, and wondering what I should do. I had no one to stay with me, I was dazed and injured and in pain, and I sat on the side of my bed, trying not to cry, wondering if I should call back and ask another way. I felt like I had bothered her. I couldn't even see straight, but there I was, feeling all the blame. I didn't know what to do, so I wrote a note about the accident in case they found me dead the next day, and tried to go to sleep, begging God to let me wake up in the morning. It was due to these accidents that I still suffer from constant headaches and neck pain and immobility. Maybe I said the wrong prayer.

So now, I am finally a little calmer and am able to write to you. Every night I thought of Segaya and Jan and Sapphira and Dianne, and thought, "My girls are out there, and I know they are thinking of me.", and it helped me so very much. I'm just sorry I was unable to write. I was not only suffering this setback or flareup, I also had to stay off the computer because the light was just killing my eyes.

I can feel the pain on the right side kicking up again, so I have to sign off. I'm sorry if this didn't cover enough for you, I'll try to write again tomorrow. Thinking of you all, as always, with love and concern. Hope you are doing well. with love, Lady Crown
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/18/08 01:10 PM

Hi Lady Crown

Itís good to hear from you, itís always a concern when we donít hear from someone for a while and of course we are thinking about you that goes without saying. Please donít feel you ever have to post, this forum is like a true good friendship so when you donít hear from a friend for ages you are so pleased when you do but never question why they hadnít been in touch.
Iím sorry to learn you have been so ill, I suffer from migraines but not anywhere near as bad as that so only have a glimpse of what are going through. Iím sitting here typing with a hot wheat pillow on my neck trying to relieve the pain. I havenít a clue what Iíve done to trigger it this time (originally from a car crash injury).and know how it gets you down when you are physically weakened.

Iím so pleased that you are taking such a strong stand with the family, you have come so far since you first posted here but maybe you donít realise it. You seem to have accepted that your family will never change and they are the ones with the problems and although you are the odd one out you are the fortunate one.

How sensible that you took the food, didnít fall in with the game, gave no explanation and walked out again. Wow! Iím impressed and even more impressed that you fulfil your moral obligations to an elderly mother without any reward. It proves yet again that you are way above the rest of the family and a genuinely generous spirit.
You will always be the potential target because you are the one they feel has to be broken, that is a testament to your strength but a few more reactions like that and they may start to leave you alone. There will be no point them throwing a ball at you if you are not there to catch it. If you are there and they Ďthrowí something at you keep pretending you havenít noticed. After a while you might let it wash over you but in the meantime donít let them see any reaction even if it tears your insides up. Your husband is there to talk you and share it with to help you get over it.
It was so nice of him to post and I personally would love to hear what advice he would give to others helping someone cope with a psychopath in their life.

Iíve been following Segayaís therapy and the one with the stream worked for me and I had a lovely nightís sleep. I think her posts explaining the relaxation techniques should go in the resources section so we need to think of a title. Maybe Segaya will give them a better name than relaxation techniques to give a proper description.

I look forward to hearing more about your progression itís a work in progress.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/18/08 04:47 PM

Hello Jan, Lady Crown, Sapphira and Dianne,

Jan to answer your question first; Dianne gave the suggestion to name it; Discovery and healing. It's fine by me. Only the first part is named relaxation because it's a first step to make. If somebody is not able to be relaxed in that way the rest of it is so very hard to do.
I am so pleased the stream helpt you to sleep!!!! I get a lot of enthousiastic reactions on that one indeed.. Just keep doing it. Sometimes, not sleeping or having troubles with sleeping is a matter of being programmed that way. People almost fear going to bed , anxious for not sleeping again. This will take that fear away and will re-program the mind, and that surely will help. if not than it is so nice to give this as a kind of present to yourself.....

Lady Crown... I am so impressed by your story!!!
Ofcourse we love to hear from you even when it is just a small posting just to let us know you are still out there,but it's oke if you don't have the possibility to write.We know you are there somewhere and that is giving us the same strenght as it gives you to know we are here!!!

I have to tell you something.

I have to start wayback in time.
As you know already I didn't see my family for years and years. Now just one and a half year ago I discovered a nice is living straight agross my house. If I want to I can see right into her living room. Of all the places there are to life...she lives agross the street. unbelieveble isn'it!!!I never met her and didn't know she was my nice.
We spend some time together and I worked with her for she is in pain also. At one day I came to see how she was doing and noticed that her attitude was different.. The next time she was ignoring me...and the time after that again... So I just stopped going over to see her.
We still greeted each other when passing on the street but she was not very enthousiastic doing so.
Now, last week when I went out to do my weekly shoppings I saw her at the supermarket.... and she saw me. Turned her head the other way as if she didn't notice me...never one wrong word is said, nothing happend..Anyway...If this would have happend some time ago I would have gone up to her and asked her straight out what is the matter, what is wrong..or more likely; what did I do wrong to deserve this treatment... Or I would have gotten angry and ask her that way who she was thinking she is.....
But not after reading how you are coping with these kind of situations....
So, I just see what was happening, notice her turning her head the other way and wondered how people can be that way and went on with what I was doing in the first place; shopping!
I could let go without anger, remorse or be disappoited by her reaction.
this was such a victory for me!!! Thank you for your wise and rich lessons!!

I am so sorry you are in such pain for such a longtime already. I use to have a lot of pain also..this was a constant pain which means you get used to it. The pain that comes and goes is so scary. I know I have been there also..
It's so terrible you are so much on your own in times of need. Can't you trade places with my nice..That way I can just walk over to your place and try to comfort you...

What a remarkable story about the album....You told us before you are buzy with the genealogy of your you'r mother and brother know this? Is this the reason they don't want you to have it? there something in there that they don't want you to know or remember again????
Or is it just because they know you want it and this is the way for them to hurt you again?
Jan is right (in my case anyway) when saying to go on not reacting on any of this. My son does the same thing and I ignore him completely when doing so. Another thing I learned is not letting him know what I like or not, whom I liked or not, what i thought I needed and so one. That way he lost his grip on me and couldn't hurt me so much anymore.
So all things in the house that he knew of were of value to me I hide away ..For him; it just wasn't there anymore!!! It was gone and if he asked me about it I told him I gave it away or I broke it while cleaning it. This gave me a lot of rest. I just hide it somewhere he couldn't find it, indeed gave it away, or brought it to a friends house for the time being.
After I got him out of my house I put the things back again.
People I liked, I told the situation and asked them to cooperated and not contact me at times he was at home. they didn't anymore. Some 'friends' I lost this way but the good ones are still around. I learned also, just like you, not to show any emotions. that was very hard for me to do, but I wasn't in a save enviorment when he was around and he used it in a very agressive way against me. I had to hide my feelings so I wouldn't be an easy target for him.
In time he lost his grip on me completely and I was in the position of the elder again. I deside want is to happen, what needs to be done what is oke and what is not!
Now, when he enters my house there is never to tell how it will end. sometimes he is so brutal that I order him to leave with in a few minutes. Sometimes it takes half an hour and sometime, but very rarely, it takes an hour... not longer. never longer. And he allways comes back! Maybe I see him ones a year or maybe twice ...

I speak to him on the phone last week; he called me a victim because of what happend with his father almost 25 years ago... I laught and asked if he is living in the passed still.. he didn't react anymore.. He was telling also he was troubled about how people in relationships fight with eachother all the time and discribed his own relationship with his girlfriend in detail... I confronted him with this fact; No, that is different because....yeah ppff!!!
So I ended the conversation and just hang the phone. it gets easier every time....

Why am I telling this?
Because so many things has changed in me since I read your posting on how and why you do what you do.
before I did the same thing as always....It seemed that way... The big difference is that before I was frustrated and from being frustrated I did this... so it was a reaction on his behavior that trickered something inside me.
Now I don't react on frustration anymore .It still seems the same reaction from the outside..But I read you posting on this many times and learned and learned from it..Bit by bit trying to undertand deeply what you mean and how you do it.. And I know now and can put it in practice indeed...So there is peace inside me when something like this happens and I react from this peace not from frustration anymore!!
I know he will not and can not change whom he is. I am the one who has to change. That is what I have learned from you and I am greatfull for you lessons . You told it so clear and so completely in my eyes that I can realy do something with it and better my life!

I hope the pain will stay away for a very long time and will forget about you completely!
Agian, if there is something we can do to make things easier for you -please tell us.
Sometimes pain can be healed with the topic I am writting ( There is a way out called for now)
I will write a special one for pain relieve and healing in general, but give me some time to build things up to that point.
I will try to hurry with writing so you can use it!
Lots of love and you are in my thoughts constantly; Segaya
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussi - 03/19/08 10:14 AM

Hi Pinky ladies, just wanted to say I marvel at the strength and support you are giving each other. I am on typing restiction due to an wrist ingury but wanted to let you all know how much I admire you all. I do read everyday so please excuse my silence.

Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 03/19/08 07:52 PM

Thanks to you all for your nice responses. So far it's still "Silence Central" over here, no word or calls or messages. I guess I'm supposed to feel bad and come around. Still no invitation for Easter, Psychopath sister will probably start calling Thursday and tell me how she has been calling. Hasn't she ever heard of caller ID? Does she think I don't know how the phone works?

Jan, I sympathize with your migraines as well. I have a buckwheat pillow too, as well as drawers full of heat wraps, cold wraps, neck pillows; everything we could think of that would help. I'm impressed that you are able to post in the middle of that pain! It really hit me when you said caring for my mother without any reward. I never thought of it like that, but it is true. No respect, no consideration, no affection.

Thank you all for saying that you were proud of me for having enough resiliency to treat my mother decently despite the resentment and anger she feels towards me. It made me feel really touched and gave me a new insight into myself. I never see myself as anything special, but being on this board is starting to make me see that what I always thought of as normal isn't. I know normal is a subjective word, but I am thinking to myself, "Normal families don't treat each other this way, normal families don't let each other get injured or sick or helpless." They were the only yardstick I had growing up and as an adult, and now I'm thinking, "THEY ARE WRONG!" No matter how many excuses they make, people aren't supposed to live in what I can only call squalor, aren't supposed to suffer, aren't supposed to wait forever for a scrap of kindness or a bit of consideration. People don't talk to each other the way they talk to me, and expect to get away with it or have it be okay. It's a very weird feeling to think of a choice I have to make and visualize them, as if I were determining my best response, and suddenly starting to feel as if they are wrong and that's not the way I want to live or do things. It's like the breaking up of the idea that they have the right criteria, and realizing instead, feeling instead how distorted they actually are. I am literally seeing it and it's rather unsettling. It makes me wonder what else I'm not seeing.

Segaya, they do know all about the geneaology, but there aren't any secrets. They just treat that as my "little hobby". I tell my brother things I've found and tracked down and he says to me, "that's nice for you, but I'm not interested." It's more a matter of simply not wanting me to have anything, and the overwhelming resentment they feel towards me. My feelings are changing from wondering why they dislike me so much to "How dare you think you can talk to people like this!" And that is good that the feelings are changing like that. It doesn't help me much with the ensuing rage I feel, but it's better to feel a sense of outrage when you are hurt or denigrated. That response has been buried for years, if it even existed, and it's good that it's finally coming out.

They know that I need the paperwork and documents and pictures to verify the genealogical research, but they simply don't want me to have it. I'm not talking about secret files or peoples' private matters, just family pictures and Mass cards and the like. It's just too much trouble to give me a spool of thread or a moment's time. They have no idea, due to their blind selfishness, how enraged I am. If they knew, they would be both defensive and shocked. Of course, I would still be the wrong one, but right now they are seething because I am not calling or bringing gifts over. I never thought about getting any reward; I just always wondered why nothing I did was ever right. It was a terrible thing to grow up feeling unwanted and nothing more than an annoyance.

Segaya, my pinky friend, I was glad to hear that you were enjoying the CO! It is great, isn't it? I'm going to try the techniques you wrote about, and hopefully it will help. I had a terrible nightmare last night about my mother and Psychopath sister, and Lord Crown had to wake me up, it was so bad. I'm looking forward hopefully to a peaceful Easter, where he and I will go to the cemetery (it's my father's anniversary), put palm on the graves, and maybe do a little research on the geneaology. Then dinner and a movie! Even if I had wanted to go to my Psychopath sister's, which I don't, after this fracas, I wouldn't do it. There is no way I can have someone talk to me the way they did, and then sit down to dinner with them as if it never happened. That just makes me invisible.

I probably haven't talked about this much before, but being invisible is what I call what was done to me. Aside from the abuse and the blows and the being stripped of everything like beds and clothes and a room, etc., one of the worst and most destructive things was making me invisible. Everytime they dismissed me or took my things or told me to wait for something, or do without something, they pushed me further and further into the shadows, until I didn't even appear anymore. When I had nothing to say in a decision, or preferences, or opinions, and everytime I opened my mouth, or appeared in a room, or asked for something, I was driven away and pushed out and told to be quiet. So I stopped talking, stopped asking, stopped expecting anything normal, like a ride to the store, or a bed, or some clothes. And I just became more and more invisible. And if I went to this dinner, it would be like saying it's okay. And it just can't be. I know they are going to get even angrier (if that's possible), plus Psychopath sister is going to come raging in, because she isn't getting her little Dickens fantasy, but I don't care. I have to care about me (and Lord Crown, who I'm not putting through that), and caring about me right now means I'm far from invisible and I will not go along with the battery to make me so.

Thank you all again for your support and kind thoughts. I do hope I am doing better when I first started to post, and I know this board is bringing all things to light for me, through reading other people's travails and what they feel and think. Your experiences and ways of handling it wake things up in my mind, and usher me closer to a healthy response and choice when I need it. It's a new way of seeing the world for me and I can't thank you all enough. If you ever wonder if you make a difference, let me tell you: here is at least one person whose life you are changing, helping to bring me out of hell, and closer to the "broad sunlit uplands".

I will post again soon. Pink girly hugs, and love to you all, Lady Crown

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/20/08 06:02 PM

My dear pinky girlfiend.

You are growing with every message you write!!!
I think I am saying that the wrong way so I try again..
In every post you give I see how you are changing..For the better I think... this seems like there is a door that has opened and on the other side is a big mirror.This time the mirror isn't the one 'they' gave you..the one that is like a laughing mirror, ( is this the right term for a mirror that distorts you?)
The vail is lifted up and you see the real you, like a blind person who is seeing everything more clear all the time...My heart jumped up reading you posting!!!
Rarely you met persons with a name that suits them so well as yours does you!!!
LADY CROWN....each day that passes you fit the crown better and it looks wonderful on you...
Never forget you are indeed LADY CROWN.
People have to treat you like a lady. They have to be polite, and care for you because you are the Queen of Hearts!!!
If you forget or don't know how it would be done 'normaly' than maybe this will help;...( it does for me)
Picture on of us you met on this forum in a situation like you live through all the time..What if people treated us that way? What do you feel while making that picture in your head....And how should we be treated.....
The same thing goes for you. If I read the things you write it makes me furious.... How dair people do like this to somebody who is helping, caring,cleaning and so on.....

whawha I am a person who is right to the point and the flame in me is burning, certainly when something is unfair!!!I learned to let go if I can't change anything about it and try to be creative in what I can do....

I am so proud of you...I can't tell...

The way you distinguish between one situation and an other is great!
Your decision to keep on helping your mother is something only a person with the right heart can and will do. You undergo all kinds of insults that way and are capable of being who you are and not let the situation rule your decisions about how people in need should be treated!
It's a totaly different situation to spent your holyday with them. There is no reason to let them have that change. You see your mother every week I understand, you help her with everyhting and more... And there are so many ways to celebrate eastern.... There is truely no need to let people ruin your days and that of your lord....
I loved it when you told about what your plans are for the eastern's sounds so very nice and peacefull.......

This thing with that photoalbum ....They indeed just know it is importend to you....and this way they can get to you...ppfff Indeed as I wrote last time..the thing I did was just hide feelings and so on to protect myself...
May I ask; Is there a special reason for you why you want to do this genealogy?
Does it has something to do with the feeling of being invisible?

Yes that familiar again.
I do think the being shy has everything to do with this wish for being invisible..Wish? Yeah wish... not from birth on probably, but live is so cruel sometimes that if we would have been invisible it would have been so much easier....just get so small people don't notice anymore that you are around. So they can't ignore anymore, you don't need food so they can't take it from you anymore... they can't abuse you in anyway don't need things anymore so they can't withhold anything no more......

The wish of being invisible isn't our lives weren't. They treated me like that indeed... Like i didn't even excist. If there was food and she cooked...rarely as i told before... they just didn't warn me to come and eat.... They called me for cleaning up afterwards when all the food was gone or I enter the room and they gave it to the dogs right in front of me....
This hurt me a lot and gave me the idear, the wish to be invisible..not excisting,not needy of anything.
It took me ages before i realized I have rights...I was in title to eat and cloths and things,
For years i didn't have socks. People pointed this out to's to cold, you have to wear them!...and I thought ; yes I have feet were purple because of the cold weather.. and I forget all about it agian.. Never thinking of it even until an other person told me the same thing.
This went on for years.
Just, I think, three years ago I bought me some socks..High ones, upto the knees, nice and warm....and I still don't wear them. I am not used to taking care of my fysical self. I simply forget to put them on. Even when my house is cold or the house is warm and I am feeling the cold, I completely forget the socks and go to bed with ice instead of feet under my legs.

This is clearly the result of being a lot of things and situations make us clear they are. it's up to us to make an end to this.

We ARE...BE as Sapphira would put it!!!

I am happy you put a stop to them making you invisible..Like I said before; Somebody can't do anything to you if you don't let them..this goes also for the subject of making us invisible..they only can succeed if we go along with it! So; GO GIRLLLLLL.....
This one is for you!!!

And Sapphira I found this one for you;

Thank you for being there!
Love,hugs and all goods
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/20/08 06:10 PM

Dear Dianne...
You are nauty!!!You are not to write at all.... whahwha
Ooohhh you are a woman indeed! If you decide to write..then you write.... But...please be careful oke and look after yourself for we can't do that for you!!!!
I do think we all know that you are watching the forum closely..we don't expect it any different!W eknow also you care and we care for you too....

I send you this one... she takes care of you while we can't..... and she has a little uplifted warning index- finger if you are nauty the next time!!!

Get well soon ,love Segaya
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/20/08 10:30 PM

Hello there. I'm not sure where to start but I had to bring myself back. I'm so glad for you Lady Crown. Really am. Your strength is so obviously growing. I understand so much what you are saying about being invisible and the depression and finally the relief, almost, to feel some outrage at it all. I want to say more but I can't right now. Things are tough. Thank you Segaya for the sapphire doll! I know I need to come back.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/21/08 03:45 AM

Dear Sapphira,
How sad you feel so there anything we can do to help you, say something? Ask something?
No matter how dark things may seem, there is always us....and the way back to life!
Blesses be dear friend
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/21/08 11:27 AM

Dear Segaya,

Thank you. I knew just making contact would be what it would take. Thank you!

I was doing just fine, really, then I had a nightmare about my son and I fell into a terrible depression. The nightmare was so starkly simple and clear in a way I was totally unable to come to grips with it. It reminded me, emotionally, of things I'd never wanted to deal with. Or perhaps it would be more ture to say I wanted desperately to deal with them, but didn;t believe I ever could or would. I've been watching the posts and feeling, as we all have, so pleased and proud of Lady Crown. Silently cheering her on but unable to get any closer than that.

Some history: my mother was walking along the street one day and when she saw my father "knew" that he would be the father of her children. Three days later they were engaged. Three months later they married. I was born and she became pregnant with my brother straight after, then left my father and returned to live with my grandparents.

My grandparents lived on a farm and my grandfather was renowned for being a very violent and sadistic man. I was hitch-hiking near the area when I was 25 and he was long dead, and an old guy picked me up and asked about my family and where I was from. When I mentioned my mother, he immedaitely new her and also my grandfather. You know that certain kind of eerie quiet that comes over people get when they have encountered these types? Well, it was like that. My aunt and uncles had the same thing. After he died they never spoke of him. And after 50 years since he had known him, that old man still remembered him with that same particular reaction.

Anyway, we lived with my grandparents. He referred to me as "the favourite" and to my brother as "the bastard". When I was 6 he raped me in the bedroom I shared with my brother. He smothered me with a pillow and nearly killed me. In the morning my grandmother wound up the sheets and put me into the spare bed in my mother's room. Nothing was said, but her manner was so cold that I was sick with shame and thinking I had done something so terrible. My mother spent the next two days in bed and I lay watching her back that never once turned round to me. Years later when I told her what had happened with my grandfather she said coolly, and quite matter of factly, Well, that wouldn't surprise me, we all knew he was a bastard". Nothing more, nothing less. And he wasn't the last man she wouldn't protect me from.

We eventually moved away from my grandparents, but I remember when I was 8 or 9 visiting with my mother. About 2 in the afternoon she announced she'd run me a bath - a shallow, token bath. Anyway, she told me to get in and not to let my grandfather in, then she returned outside to where my grandmother was down the section doing the garden. Of course, no lock on the door and two mintues later who walked in. What a surprise! Am I paranoid or was that a setup?

When I was 11 my grandfather gave me a book by a Dr Moody about near death experiences. He said, "Have a look at that and tell me if any are like your own". And you know, he was really, genuinely, totally curious to know!! No big deal, just matter of factly, wanted to know. Yes, ours was a very "special" bond.

So this is all what came up, when I had this terrible dream about my son. It was about not being able to fight back. About having to squash every inch of the considerable instinct to destroy this man, and fight for my life because if I struggled any more, he would have completely killed me. On the deepest level it was a confrontation with a terrible knowing that in that man was such a cold, hard, unmoveableness that would not spare me anything. He was cold death. Cold, hard as rock, and incredibly powerful to my small being, both physically and psychically. I had to let a certain part of me die - or so I thought - to preseve my life. This is the core of the massive depression that has swamped me all my life and in the last few days hit me like a hammer. Normal frames of understanding could not accomodate these experiences for me so it has had to wait in some limbo space. And this distance you mention. Well, you know how I said there is a part of me in the BE that I just can't find. Sometimes she's about then other times I have no idea where she's gone. Well, I think this was her. And even though she is very distant, shes actually stepped back into the picture. On the edge of the frame and so in this way distant, but in the big scheme of things, she's a whole lot closer. Isn't that great!

I could never talk about what happened with my grandfather, apart from saying that he raped me when I was 6. But just saying that doesn't and never has changed anything for me. Not that I said it very much. But there just wasn't anything more I could say to bring it closer in myself in anyway. Because it was the feeling that I couldn't find a way to communicate or explain in words. It wasn't so much what happened as that particular feeling or confrontation with that aspect of that person when they do what they do that was/is the greatest shock. What was physcial pain compared with this - a pain that has to do with facing realities one is too young or too SANE to comprehend. With great care I ask, how could I express what this has really meant to me to people who do not understand the cold hard immoveable face of this type of psyche? No comment on the willingness of people so wanting to help. I just couldn't take up their offers and this was another shame on the shame. But now I am understanding and forgiving and learning. It has only been in seeing my mother, and acknowledging what has gone on with her and having an insight into her on that level that this has been able to even approach the light. Now I know what I am saying is going to be recognised. I know this, deeply and wholely. This is the Gracia. I can say and now I can put these things in their place. This has been my biggest chain and I know that underneath is a rage so immense. And if I could connect with it, things would start to move again, the depression will lift. I was never able to bring it close enough or make any sense of the perceptions of my grandfather that I had experienced. He was a very remote and cold and intimidating person that everyone avoided. My mother was always vying for power with him and as he got older she completely became head of the family. He died when I was 15. Opening the door on my mother and understanding so much of what I do now about her sometimes incomprehensible behaviour has made it possible to put a frame and a place around my grandfather's behaviour now also. This is all very freeing, instead of being something so unpseakable that has me in a prison of silence. I can feel the earth shaking. And I'll get there.

So this is where I have been. Thank you for listening. For being there and for being patient with the pauses! Thank you for helping BE.
Love and love,

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/21/08 08:05 PM

Dear Brave Sapphira,
First off all; indeed thank you for being so very, very brave...It is quit hard for a person when something like this happend to put it into word and post it!!!

My heart broke when I read it...It brings back so many memories. It doesn't bring me back to all those years, but I can relate so very well..This little girl needed so much more and was intittled to so much more than what you got!
The pain you felt in you soul was immens. And it hit you hard when it came back after the nightmare....
I believe indeed you were expecting it for a long time. but you never know when it comes back to you....
You know something?
It won't come back in your system or thoughts or dreams if you aren't strong enough. believe me , because knowing this will give you a lot of strenght if this should ever happen again.

It is so hard to immagine isn't it...Was this or that situation a setup?...Did they really do this on purpose?..did they thought it through at forhand??? Did they make an apointment even for it to happen? Was this the reason you had to go and visit the grandparents???

I think you do know the answer..I know my dear, it is so hard to realize...But what if I had told you this story and asked you this question? What would your answer to me have been?
This is the hard thing isn't it..To admit to ourselves that indeed it happend, we didn't imagine anything, no matter how many times 'they' would tell us we did make it up. or that it wasn't importend....
We don''t dramatize things because we don't have to. Things and situations we lived through are bad enough, no need to make it any bigger or worse than it already was.

if somebody would deny it in our faces we would fight back, say things back, defend ourselves. But to admit it to ourselves, deep within, is so very hard.
isn't it wonderful though that with all that happend and all the brainwashing they put us through the person within is still knowing it was so very wrong..They didn't reach us , not realy!!!
If we would really thought all this is normal and happening to everybody than we wouldn't have to struggle so much, wouldn't have to fight so hard to get our lives become who we really are...not what they wanted us to be.
You wrote;

and incredibly powerful to my small being, both physically and psychically. I had to let a certain part of me die - or so I thought - to preseve my life

The beautifull thing is..He wasn't stronger then you are/were..Yes ofcourse you where so very small...physically he certainly was...ofcourse, he was a full grown man, but never psychologically nor emotionally. You where the stronger one.
If a 6 year old child knows the terrible experience it has to go throught because of a grownup is wrong , this child is so very strong. If then this child is to grow up to be a wonderfull person who is caring and loving and sharing then this person who was once that small child is incredablly strong and powerfull.

Working throughout the years with ex -sexual abuse victims I have learned a lot about the survival techniques that have used.
The most used technique that most victims used to survive the actual rapes and other forms of abuse is to act like they are asleep or play dead..( no play there, but I don't know how to put it in engish the right way, sorry)it gave them a change to distance themselves from what was happening. An other thing is that with this 'playing dead' is to put everthing to the situation not to get it worse.
And you know what; doing so was the perfect thing to do!!...It made true you are still here, made you survive...As you said, and I agree reading the things you write ,he would have killed you! This book he gave you proves it evenmore so.
I understand they lived in a rural invironment? if not physical than in the way there was not very much contact with other people. So no help there.. You where completely alone and you survived in spite of all that has been done to you.

Last week a saw a program on television that gave me a new insight.....
It was a program about people who have been tortured. They were adults when this happend and many of them end up in psychiatry. In straightjackeds and all. The professionals had to inject them to get them to handle these victim of torture....They went completely crazy.
They also showed people who were thoroughly questioned by the police. These people commited to crimes they were never involved in!!

I was stunned seeing this...Oke , I was bad. wasn't as bad as I went through as a young wasn't far as bad as what Lady Crown writes about and it didn't compare with what you are telling....

And look at us!!!!!
We didn't only survived it, we are strong enough to get our lives straight, we don't settle for half a job, we go all the way!!!!
This is so powerfull...And me stupid;..never thought about it this way. The things you and Lady Crown are telling, made me see it!!!!

it is hard, very hard to wrap our heades around the things that did happen. Mayby..we mustn't try..If we would understand..what would this mean? What would it say about whom we are???
Yes we do have to remember what happend. Yes we have to look at what it did to us. what has contribute in making us into the person we are now. We have to take the pain and everything that comes with the momories...But understanding them??? No . i don't think it will ever make sense to us. And that is a good thing..very good indeed.It simply means we are different..we never will make those mistakes do these crimes to anybody...

Agian Sapphira; You are so very brave to put this into words and sentences, you have posted it..and shared it with us..thank you for that, it gives me a lot to think of again.

Can I give a little advise?
If some feeling comes back to you, then please don't push it away...feed it instead!
Give it form.. I don't know how to put it in english but what I mean is the same thing i told to Sally, just before I wrote this to you.... No matter what way; but put energy to it. As long as it is within you it only hurts and poison you more.It has to get out of your system. To do so you can put things in an action. No matter how small or big it will be.

Saying things out loud forinstands is a very powerfull way....Even spoken out loud in a empty space has that power, it doesn't have to be heard by anybody.We have an undertanding haven't we; In this understanding I say; Look at even the bible the first alinea of the first book; it says that al power is in words.... it is indeed a way to turn energy around. It will get out in the world and leave you instade of keeping you in its grip.
writing, drawing, and all other creative things you can think of to get it out of you will give you so much strenght. if you have a garden, than work in it at such moments, this will get you grounded and firm and will give you new energy to go on. I don't mean you have to work really, I mean get your hands dirty even if this is for a few moment's because you can have a lack of energy. Working in the garden is too much of it then.

I do think you know what I mean. If not please say so, because I will indeed explain more if you want me to.
My dear, lovely,pinky Sapphira; Blessed be!!!!
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/21/08 10:59 PM

Dear Segaya,

I don't feel that I'm brave - just that I know that I will be truely heard. Like a channel cut in front of me, it is easy for the water to run on. I have found this here. I cannot say how critical it has been for me to find you and this site and how deeply grateful I am for this. Thank you so much for your support. After so long being blocked it is quite something to feel it flow. And once it starts it seems to get a whole lot worse as more comes up for clearing. Thankfully I know this otherwise it would really have been too much. But clearly it was my time. And thankfully, my experience with him really was the bottom of the barrel.

Yes, as you say, I knew. Over the past few days I was shaking with a knowing of what I felt was coming. I was in such a state I couldn't go out the front door except late at night to sit in the dark and the cool. Binging, all sorts. As you say, it was coming to a crunch point.

You are also right about trying to wrap our heads around it. I never could and there was a qualitative difference between what he did and others did later on. But as I go over my experiences up close with psychopathy I am finally able to recognise it and understand that as a little girl I had to face it then too. Learning as I am helps me understand it for myself in retrospect, and finally I can put some sense to what was. It seems just a natural process to share this here because where else can I and be so understood and treated so respectfully? It feels actually rather intimate and private - or at least that's how I'm determined to see it because I want to communicate with you. Yes, as you say, we are different. I think Lady Crown said that it's like being in two worlds. I need to remember this, though, because I still have an expectation that suddenly I'm just going to click and fit in and be not so disimilar. It's still early days and one minute I know how and why I fit here, then other days I feel so far away. But that will pass, I'm sure.

The one thing I needed to do was to get that intense terrifying sense that I experienced from him, into some perspective so that it didn't dominate me as it had. You know, I remember reading something Carl Jung said and it was basically to the effect: If a problem is too big for us, we must grow ourselves bigger than it. This is, for me, the gift that coming to understand what 'psychopathy' refers to has been. It's allowed me to grow my understanding and myself out of box after box. I feel so calm now. As you say, there may be more feeling to come. But mentally I can deal with it now because I know just what I am dealing with. I'd never been able to place my grandfather, but now he's in his box! Sometimes I still ask myself - a psychopath, are you SURE that's right? Then I remind myself of all that has changed in me since I was told this and how can I argue? But it's funny, I still have to go through this. But coming to terms with it in my mother I have a way to make sense of what I met in him. I will try what you say about speaking aloud into a room. I know what you are talking about, in terms of the potency. I do know what you mean about earthing and moving the energy through. I have had a lot of pain over the years in my throat, choked back tears, secrets not spoken. So this is very appropriate.

Thank you for letting me say what I needed to say. Thank you for so understanding. Thank you for your patience. It is wonderful to see others move along their journeys and pathways and ups and downs too. In this there is strength and inspiration. One day I hope to be in a strong clear place where I will be able to give to others as you have given so dearly to me.

Love...Blessed BE:)
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 03/21/08 11:40 PM

Dear Sapphira,

First of all, thank you so much for honoring us with your confidences about what happened to you. I don't even know where to start with what I are so brave, and your bravery is going to carry you through. Feeling the earth shaking? That is YOU coming to the surface and becoming more whole...breaking through the prison of silence and suffering.

You need to be extra-special good to yourself during these days while it's coming up for you. Segaya had some great ideas...treat yourself to something you like, and stay employed in some activity for yourself.

I understand about what you said about letting a part of you die...but it isn't a real death, it's only the death of feelings that are too terrible to allow yourself to have. You had to give something up in order to live, and you succeeded. I know sometimes it doesn't feel like it was worth it, but that's part of the self-deception, like the shame. What could you do as a little child? We feel shame when people who are supposed to protect us turn their backs on us, because our infant minds cannot understand that they can do that. It's the only emotion children are left with because they have to rationalize it some way.

I was raped in my twenties, and I too just...stopped. The moment that I realized the threat, mentally I just shut down and went away somewhere. I didn't fight back, I didn't scream for help, I was just gone. When I think about it, I don't remember the pain so much as the blankness that flooded through me, the complete lack of feeling anything. Even when I had to go to the health services two days later, because I wouldn't stop bleeding, I was feeling nothing. Although this cannot ever compare to the horror you were subjected to, I understand your feelings. I truly believe that it happens because we cannot acknowledge that we are helpless, yet on some basic level, we do. Then the survival instinct takes over automatically, and you do what your inner self tells you to do to survive. It sounds and feels like self-betrayal, but it truly isn't, believe me, dear. It's the best part of yourself, wanting yourself to continue and live. It's an act of loving yourself, that is built into you by nature.

I know I shouldn't say this, and it's not for me to say, but I swear if I could I would go to that monster's grave and throw salt on it. I wish I could say I can't imagine the cruelty of showing you that book, but I can. Somehow these people are lacking even enough of a humanity to feel a sense of regret or remorse, but instead dote on bringing it up. I don't know if they do it because they actually see nothing wrong or if they like to see your reaction. I think it was very intuitive of you to see the difference between what physically happened and the aspect of "that person when they do what they do". That's amazing that even though you were so little, you are able to tap into that connection with your younger self and what you were feeling. That is really admirable!

I know it's a terrible time to go through when things like this come up, but it will pass and become less horrific. And after the intensity lessens, as it will, you will have integrated another part of yourself. In reality, he is dead. You're not. He had a reputation with strangers of being evil. You don't. You have friends on this board and people who think of you with affection and concern. You are still our dear Sapphira, and we are here for you.

Take as much time as you need to post, and don't worry about it. Pinky hugs and girly wishes, honey. Love, Lady Crown.
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/22/08 05:28 AM

Dear Lady Crown! Your words have reached in like a gentle hand into my heart and I know that you know exactly. Thank you. There were a couple of things in particular in your post that dropped me to my chair. I am not sure if I will get to say both of them tonight as there is so much. I wanted to sleep after so little the night before and took a pill but after an hour I'm awake going over and over what you have said, so I need to write something though. You have actually helped me understand the terrible dream, because I could not. On a level I did, but not totally. You are exactly right about the helplessness. This is what I was struggling with for days. This was the depression and underneath a rage I'm sure, but then, as you said, a blank. And it was this blank that haunted me after my nightmare. The helplessness. It is so hard to face. How do you understand it so much? I hear your words, and I know you are so right and yet there is something in me that just cannot comprehend it, yet knows it so intimately. this being so helpless is so devaststing. Yet saying this you have helped me understand the nightmare because that was it. I keep going over your words - sink in, sink in. Like so knowing I've arrived after a long trip but never knowing where I was actually trying to get to. It will come, I trust.

So many things your post made me think of. You know, even though the details of which particular insanity we may be discussing with one or other individual, we all just know and recognise the sameness, in essence. I know the sexual aspect of it is there but that resides far away from the feeling deep inside myself that he was trying to kill me. I didn't think about it much because I couldn't allow myself to go close, but on the times when I did think about it from afar in my mind, if you know what I mean, I used to think that he was smothering me to keep my quiet. But it wasn't actually like that. The smothering came after. And then my nightmare has helped me see this after your response because in your post you have answered it for me. It is a great relief because I felt so terribly guilty. But when one is on a edge with someone about to kill you, things get reduced real fast. It makes me think of survivor guilt almost. Which is curious. Actually it's what I felt in the dream.

You said about sensing the difference between what was happening and the person as he did that. That was the most terrifying thing and I recall the sense/feeling of him but it has taken all these years to understand it, to come to be able to express what that was. This only came to me finally yesterday, after all the struggle of it trying to come to where I consciously know. But as a child it was very clear what I saw in him. And you mentioned about when he gave me the book. Again there is a feeling that is hard to describe or explain. At the time he gave me the book I didn't remember what had happened. Yet it was as though I knew completely. Like two conversations, or perhaps like being hypnotised. on one level you are asleep, on another you are wide awake but you can't necessarily bring the two layers of consciousness together. So it was a very particular feeling I got on at that moment. I know exactly where I was when he gave it to me. This information is as clear as a bell. There was a subtle taunt in it. Also a subtle kind of satisfaction in a perverse kind of way. When he said it I was taken aback because it was like how do you know about this? While on another level I didn't even know myself. I think he thought he was bit clever. Superficially I thought he was just curious. Sorry, I've started going into reverse here, if that makes any sense. This happens at times.

I am not at all bothered by what you said about putting salt on his grave. I was lying in bed actually feeling very satisfied to go over these words in my mind. To be perfectly honest it felt good to hear you felt that way. It's quite something to feel another person is angry on my behalf!

I will ponder your words. Especially this about helplessness. Both my mother, on a daily basis, and my grandfather, were so into power over. Feeling helpless was a constant. and feeling helpless to even understand some of what happened with these people, let alone change or affect things in any way. This matter of helplessness is profound in relation to these types of people.

Lady Crown, I have got so much from your post, I truly have. And there is much I know I will come back to. I feel so wrapped up in warmth and such understanding. You are like the warmth of the sun appearing out from behind a cloud on a cold and dull day, warm and generous. I can sleep so peacefully knowing that I am blessed with such friendship and caring. Thank you.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/22/08 06:04 AM

Dear Sapphira and lady Crown.

I can't help myself, I am reading this and while my heart breaks for you on one level, on the other I am sitting here with a hugs smile on my face.
This is the power of women that I was speaking about....This is it!!!I am so glad to read your postings, I am so proud to be part of that little pinky triangle over the oceans,as Dianne puts it...thank you!!!!
Love, hugs and that big proud smile on my face
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/22/08 06:03 PM

Dear Segaya,

Your post has given me a lot to think about. Yes, it is the power of women, and actually it amazes me because all three of us have been so abandoned and ignored and rejected by our mothers and sister. I don't believe any of us has a daughter either, not sure. This matter of female bond is so important. When you said in a post about your heart breaking when you see a mother out shopping with her daughter - I can relate to that. Not that I have the space yet to greive for not having this. But as a women, we need other women to start off with ourselves.

Our life experiences have so set us apart from ordinary interactions and sharings. I remember girls being so concerned with clothes and makeup and boys and going to dances and saturday nights. These very ordinary and mundane things. Yet in our worlds it was not even to be imagined having clothes, in a basic sense, or a proper room or place to lie down or privacy or any kind. How does one chit-chat about these things when they are so not a part of our world? And how does one go on to bond with other women when there is no common ground? Until we know ourselves and find a space to be ourselves in and from it is very difficult to engage like this. In some ways men are foreign creatures and despite the abuse, for me they were easier because they are so different. It was always much more threatening for me to try to engage with other women. Because of that lack of common ground and because my experiences of "Woman" via my mother made me believe that if that was what it meant to be a woman, I sure didn;t want to be one, or be around others. I admit a deeply held angst because basically, I didn't see how I could trust women - and that included myself. You know, seeing my mother's back and her turned away from me and the times when other men abused me and she allowed them access or was just not there to comfort or turn to afterwards, was a bigger betrayal, almost than what the men did.

To be honest, I do find it really hard to trust, and even being here on the forum is so new. Yet something inside of me steps over those internal barriers and I say something then I notice a pull back soon after when the old "watch out" mechanism kicks in. But it really is remarkable what is passing here. There is clearly a sense of safety and confidence and recognition and a lack of pretence, because we can speak from our truths here. All that said, I know it will take me time to take it in, take it in, But it is going in. Actually, I wonder what "others" (:o) would make of where we go. I guess one thing one isn't permitted to remain, after living through and moving beyond these types of experiences, is superficial. So much pain in our souls, which as women, there is no closer the pain can go. So we reach right in, grab the pain by the hair and we don't let it go. It might want to wriggle out and run off somewhere else to hide, once we know about it. But we want to take it, honour it, skin it, wear it's essence, transformed into a new world. To me there is something at times almost primal about it, very soul-filled and very reinstating of the FEM in ourselves about it. And perhaps this is what you were also meaning?

I was thinking about the story of Persephone who was raped and taken into the Underworld by Hades. Part of the story is that Hekate hears her cries and for a certain time did nothing. Yet it was to Hekate that Persephone from then on "preceeded and followed". it was to Hekate that she turned and howled in pain and was understood and comforted. Hekate is the torch bearer of the dark underworld with a head dress of stars lighting the way both back and forward. It is she who leads us out of the darkness and reunites mother and daughter. I wondered, if she cared so much how did she stand by when she heard Persephone's cries? I was wondering this also in terms of what Lady Crown was saying about powerlessness. Thing is, there are certain things that happen that just do, just are, just must be, even. The rape was something that was. These things that burn so far into our souls. And there is that confrontation with helplessness that Lady Crown was speaking of that is so where I am struggling with in myself. I see now that Hekate could not change what life had ordered. It was not her place - no one can argue with Life/Death - but her job was to be there, to listen and understand and show compassion for persephone as she struggled to deal with what she had experienced. Her job was to comfort while in the dark and then to illuminate the way out.

Hekate gets a bad and unfair press and its easy to question, as I did, how she could stand by. But the gifts from Hekate suggest she doesn't just stand by or care. Her gifts are a secret understanding about Love, about healing and about regeneration. Lady Crown's post shows this clearly. Such love and caring that comes from a heart that truely knows, that has been there and known that. Her grace comes not from a life without pain, but from having borne it with a strength that loved way beyond it.

In you I see the healing and the Healer. The gifts you offer here, relaxation, connection, insight, heaps of encouragement. You just put these things out, like food for the birds, and they come and feed. You don't do any more than provide what is needed for the person to take and apply to themselves. You don't "do" the healing:- you help one to heal oneself. What truer healing is there?

And I feel there is a general attitude on this site that promotes and encourages the struggle for regeneraton and the growing through and beyond these terrible things we have known. I sense on a collective level that all efforts at renewal will be recognised and strongly supported and encouraged here with clarity and strength. This little "home away from home" is really quite something.

Lots of Love
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/22/08 06:17 PM

I was thinking about when Lord Crown wins the lottery and we all meet up in Paris. Perhaps we could all go out to dinner and each wear our own special dresses?..No pressure, Lord Crown:)

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/23/08 06:29 AM

Hi Sapphira,

I woke up this morning in a beautiful white world and smiled. March 21.... Ostara, the festival of light and blooming.....And now there is snow. I was thinking of Demeter who has to be tired or still resting from the partying...And there you are...talking about Demeter and Persephone!!

Yes, you are right it seems odd doesn't it. Hekate who heard the loud cry of Persophone and did nothing....
Years ago when I first heard that story it made me angry. It felt like she was indeed similar to my mother ad I didn't like her at all....She betrait an other female I felt.
Now , I am a bit older.... I think differently.
Maybe Hekate is like us, normal people... We hear and know of things happening to the children but as we have no prove we can't do anything. People who have enough prove don't do anything...probably out of selfconcern or lack of interest?

People like us,as the pinky girlgroup..we are there afterwards to comfort, help, guidens, listen , give a shoulder to cry on and be of help that way? As Hekate did with Persephone.
How many times do we read in newspapers, see it on television or through other media what is happening to children , women, the weaker among us..And oohh we all do know what to do in theory but when the strange thing occurse that it's near us than people like to turn there heads and act like nothing is wrong. People do think it is only a far away thing that happens to people who are bad or of an lower social circle. Children who are abused in any way are very good in hiding it. They are threatened by the agressor not to tell and are silent. When people don't know the signs, keep they'r eyes closed, don't go to see what is true of what they heard...this will keep on going. I have a internet site for ex- sexual abuse victims ,it's called..( sorry I have to translate it) The punishment of being silent is a lifetime sentence.
It's called like that for very good reasons. On of them is indeed that this only can go on because of the fact that no one talks about it.

So our Hekate heard only the cry....and did nothing to come to Persephones rescue. Like ordenairy poeple do nothing. But after 9 days she went to Demeter, Persephone's mother and told her all about what had happend. This way she did do something and on top of that she, afterwards, took care of Persephone. This is not similar anymore to most people...Most people will turn there back and go on with they're own lives...So there is much to learn from this Hekate!!!

I can so relate to what you said about the bound between women and the lack of it we had. Still I can hardly be around women. I was a member of a womenschoir for 11 years. For 11 years they told me weekly ( this is really true) I had to cut my hair..It wasn't healthy hair, I become to old to wear it like that, it didn't look nice, it had to be too much work to keep it clean and so on... They also told me I can't sing and that it wasn't nice to see me on stage.I was very slim those years and they always said something about my figure..of course not nice things...I was too skinny, I didn't look my age..did I want to wear those clothes..ppf tiring.( since I left that choir I put on a lot of weight!!)
Now I am in a band, and the man of the band make it very clear that I am the treath who keeps it al together an they don't want to rehaerse without me anymore..( I didn't go 1 time because I had the flu)They plead not to cut my hair and they compliment me with my way of dressing because they like it. It is femal yet not sexy or alluring. The singer before me was dressed to sexy,it was overdone...What a difference..I wasn't the one who changed was I...I am the same person...

The chit chat..I still can't do it. Yes I will try...for a few minutes nobody notices anything but after those few minutes I just listen or my mind wonders off because it's all about nothing. Sometimes, but years ago that made me kind of jealous of other women..but not anymore..It is to superfisial, to much of nothing, They can't speak other subjects because they simply don't no about anything. Those women are stuck in they're lives and they may, i think it's theyre way of protecting there lives and family.....Respect all the way, but it is just not who I am.
I learned to be very much on my own.( like I was in my younger years already) There are not many people I can relate to. I just had a few friends and lost them again, our paths seperated just because life brought us different things to learn. Not a bad thing, but sometimes the good can hurt a bit too don't you think. I have a lot of people I know and now there are new friend the pinky girlgroup and others here in my own country

I am so surprised about what you say about what I am doing. You know..You are the first one who really understands...Maybe I have to say..who speaks it out loud.....or better yet...Who puts it into words this way.
No I can't 'do' for anyone else than myself, But I can show a way that liberates from hell. I have been there, spend a lot of years there and I learned there is a way out! But you have to go the path yourself like I did and many before us did, and many shall do after us.
I know on forehand that many will read it and maybe a few will do the things I suggest. No matter... It's those few I am writing it for...
The moment I discovered this way I stopped a lot of other techniques I use to do with the people I helped. I knew immidiatly this is the one thing I want to practize. Because I don't 'do' anything anymore..I just show the way it's done..the rest is upto listening to your intuition, your inner self..But people didn't learn for many years already how to listen..This is a way to make that easier...It is so very simple to do and it can give so much ..... Reading alone isn't doing the trick though... Practice is nessecary.

Thank you for seeing it the way I ment it ....

With the strenght of women I ment all that you say and more..I only saw this in women... Not with men, strange isn't it..It's like you say; we , women, are capable of grabbing it from deep within and take it out and on top of that heal ourselves. This is so common and yet so not known by many....
If you really want to know what I mean by the strenght of a woman; Take a look in the mirror and you will have the answer..
Same goes for Lady Crown indeed!!!
Love and happy eastern.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/23/08 02:38 PM

Dear Lady Crown,
I have to tell you about my experiences with the CO.
You were so right to tell us the secret of this!
My hair is more shiny, more soft, more healthy looking and what really pleases; me it seems that I loose not so much hair as before.
Till , say, around 4 years ago my hair was really thick..A lot of hair and per hair it was thick also. I couldn't put it up because hair accesories couldn't hold it. Now my hair got thinner and one side of it was that I could do 'something' with it, but I really missed that thickness. I don't expect it to get as thick as it was before, but losing less makes me fee lmore at ease for I was almost afraid to get bold...( kidding, but yeah, it was hard to see it getting thinner.)
So thank you so very much....if you have more advise like this; please share....
Love, a gratefull Segaya.
Posted by: barbara

Re: General Discussion - 03/24/08 07:54 AM

Hi there

I am not sure if I am in the correct discussion, please let me know.

I would like to quickly give an overview of my story as I think having done quite a bit of reasearch just recently on the psychopath.

I was married to what I think may have been a psychopath, who is the father of my child... I was his second marriage, he was a compulsive liar and managed to cover those lies up so I never really knew what the truth was, he gambled away 2 houses and managed to cover it up with lies right until the very last minute when I had visists from people who had told me houses had never been paid for and yet we had put all our savings in it, he used to lie about where he was and what he had been up to all the time, often I would catch him out and he would deny it, and to keep the peace I would land up giving up on the questions as he was so convincing, he was the most wonderful, outgoing and charming person who supposedly loved me only and promised me the world, holidays which we never took once in our entire marriage, my family all loved him in the beggining then eventually saw through his lies which I did not, until I caught him out again and decided as I had a child that I needed to take care I had nl choice but leave this deceitful man, I divorced him 5 years ago thinking that was the end of it, it was a great releif and the drama of my life seemed to be over.

However he has never been able to let go of me and has had daily contact with me since my divorce which was 5 years ago,trying to get me back teling me he loves me etc etc., he moved in with a women 3 months after we got divorced who was always supposedly always just a friend, he lived in her cottage so he told me and my son so every second week end for the past 5 years my so has lived with him in the cottage, all this time he has still been contacting me with his love for me,(there were time I did consider getting back with him, but my gut feel always stopped me) this was right up until last week when I found out that he had already been married for 2 years for the 3rd time to the "friend" the women he had been living with since our divirce and did not think my son and myself needed to know this, obliviously for selfish reasons of his own, he was at mys house just last week again begging me for another chance whilst he was actualy a married man... when I confronted him on this he went mad and totally denied it, for the second time about a year ago I had the same gut feel but he managed to convince me other wise once again.

I did eventually allow some one who I had met into my son and my life after 4 years of being divorced, my x made my life a living hell with threats and the normal all hours of the morning phone calls which put pressure on my relationship which eventually ended, all this happend whilst he was already married for 1 year.

What I need to know is firstly do the completly non emotional lies and destruction that he has left behind him sound like he is a psychopath? and also now that all his lies have come out and I have completly cut contact with him which I might add he has taken in his stride without any emotion whatsoever, is it safe for me to still send my child to him every second week end, he is an ok father, but what I need to know is if he would do anything to my child to get to me as he knows that my son comes first in my life.

I am sorry my story is so long, but honestly this is not even half the draining trauma I have been through with this destructive man.

Thank you so much
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 03/24/08 03:45 PM

Dear Segaya,

Oh, this is amazing!! I couldn't wait to see what the Barbie picture was..imagine my shock when I clicked on it and it was Queen Mab, from the Legends of Ireland, and I have that doll! I said to Lord Crown, "How does she know I'm Irish!" He smiled and said, "That Segaya, she just knows things!" ;\) What a great gift, thank you! That was so cool!

About the geneaology; happily, it has nothing to do with the invisibility factor. I've always loved to do research and I love history, so they just went together. When I found out about geneaology sites on the Internet, there was no holding me back! I use the online census records, and have found many family members (of course they are all deceased), and was able to find some burial sites that we had not known about. To me, it's like solving a puzzle, and every piece of documentation is another clue. The picture of my great-grandfather from 1892 is one of my most prized possessions, and recently I found that my other great-grandfather came from Prussia! That was a big surprise, as we always knew ourselves to be English and Irish. Unfortunately, as you know, Prussia was divided up after the war and so far I have no further details about where in Prussia he was from, or what country that part belongs to now. But I love a mystery and the hunt is very exciting! it's nice to have at least one hobby I didn't have to give up after being disabled, since I had to give up all needlework, so I haven't allowed my family to spoil it. They are, however, standing in the way when they won't let me borrow anything to make copies of pictures, etc. That's what the recent fracas was all about. So far they still haven't contacted me or said anything about it.

I had ordered a book for my mother in large print and it happened to come in the other day, so I took it over with an Easter card, and gave them to her. She was happy about it, but not pleased that I wasn't chatty or trying to appease her. I was civil and polite, but I am still angry about the insulting way they spoke to me. Then I got an email from my Psychopath sister, bemoaning the fact that no-one had come over for Easter! You may remember that I never got invited. Apparently my mother and Narcissistic brother had cancelled, or Psychopath sister cancelled it; I don't know why, or what went on, and I really want to be left out of it, but that probably won't happen. Lord Crown and I went to the dawn Mass on Easter Sunday, ate breakfast, and then went to the cemetery to put flowers on my father's grave, because it was his anniversary and Easter Sunday on the same day. So we had a nice peaceful day.

I'm glad you are enjoying the CO; I find I "shed" a lot less too! It's true that people always seem to have something to say about your hair length, as if it's any of their business. I agree with both you and Sapphira, that women seem to be a lot harder to get along with in that way, especially after being abused and treated badly by the women in our own families. I, too, am horrible at the chit-chat, and I know most of that is simply fearful lack of practice. If everything that comes out of your mouth is wrong, how are you going to have that easy, fluid give-and-take? On top of that, I feel a great percentage of us is hiding, because we feel we are wrong, or feel ashamed, or feel inadequate. That doesn't lead to easy conversational skills! I've always gotten along better with men than with women, and maybe that's because men talk about things and women talk about feelings. But if you are hiding your feelings, and hiding yourself, what are you supposed to say?

I had one time where I was working running an office full of men, but I was invited for lunch every day by a group of women. I was so scared I was sick, week after week, even though they were only being nice. I usually sat there and ate my lunch, and had little to say, until one day there was a lull in the conversation. I tried desperately to think of something, and I finally gathered all my courage and said, "I bought a dress this weekend". To my utter disbelief, one woman said, "what color?", another said, "oh, that's nice". Someone began talking about her trouble finding a dress for a function, and I just sat there, stunned. Not one word of criticism, not one piece of abuse. No one said, "What for?", or "You don't need that", nothing that I expected and had heard all my life from my mother, my Psychopath sister and my aunts. I will never forget that moment, or how much it meant to me. It's still hard of course, and a lot of work, and I'm not sure it will ever get easy, but it has at times become easier. Now, if I have a dress or something pink or pretty, I make sure I never show or mention it to my mother or Psychopath sister. I don't need the nasty comment associated with it; I want to wear it and enjoy it!

Segaya, I want to tell you to put your fuzziest socks on, and you can call one Lady Crown and one Sapphira, and tell yourself we are warming up your feet!

Sapphira, I just want to check in with you about your post and ask how you are doing. I thought of you a lot over the weekend, of course. Posting about what had happened to you also brought up some things for me, and pairing that with the current anger at my family made things kind of rocky. It's weird how everything we talk about fits together; when I wrote that I was still bleeding two days after the attack, I didn't know what to do. There was a girl in my dorm who was beautiful and sophisticated, the kind of girl you think will be a real snob. But she was a kind girl, and I actually asked her if this was normal. When she heard the whole story, she was so horrified and so upset for me, and I wasn't used to having that happen. Of course she sent me to the health services, but it was her reaction that meant so much to me. My own sister wouldn't have done that.

Here is a quote from one of my favorite authors, Jane Austen:
"The unkindness of your family has made you astonished to find friendship anywhere."

"de onvriendelijkheid van uw familie heeft u verbaasd gemaakt om vriendschap overal te vinden"

Isn't this true?

with pinky hugs and love,

Lady Crown

Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 03/24/08 04:05 PM

Hi, Barbara, and welcome to the forum!

It's good that you've come here and have done some research. Without knowing what country you are from, or the laws of where you live, it's hard to know if you can legally keep him away from your son. I am sure the administrators would know more than I. Have you read the Hare checklist for Psychopathy? It's very useful information and there are some links on the board for it.

You sound very brave and pulled-together, and congratulations for cutting the ties. Of course your son's, and your, safety is your chief concern. You seem to have a very good gut instinct; is that telling you anything about this? Has he ever physically hurt you?

I'm sorry I don't have any more useful information for you, but I believe you can always check with the laws of your country, or if need be, contact the lawyer who handled your divorce. The more people that know about your concerns the better, definitely! Also, documentation of every incident is very important, without letting him or your child know that you are.

Please don't worry about the length of posts; I've gone on for pages, I'm sure! Ask questions, tell your story, rant for a while, we all do. Do come back and keep in touch with us; you will find friends here and surprisingly shared experiences. Best of luck,

Lady Crown
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/24/08 06:16 PM

Dear Segaya and Lady Crown,

Happy Easter indeed! It never snows where I am, but I can imagine it must be lovely to wake up to such a bright white sight:) I'm down in the Southern Hemisphere so it's officially Easter with the beginning of Autumn and so our official festivals are out of step with nature - but it's always a good time to be reminded of fresh starts and renewal.

I was thinking of you both a lot over the past few days, and obviously we were thinking about similar things. A few days ago my son came into the lounge and found me giggling away to myself, as "old" women sometimes do, apparently at nothing at all. He asked me what I was laughing at. Oh, just something a friend said, I told him. I was thinking and laughing, not at, but with, what you had said, Segaya, about buying the socks three years ago and not yet putting them on. I had to laugh so much because I can SO relate to that. Really it sums up so very much about the past, the present, about the whole thing. Just getting something is such a big thing in itself. Without even putting it on or using it, just having for oneself is a big deal. And I laughed because it was such a classic example, don't you think? The small things that are so significant, and can even become really hard for us. Just going and getting something even small for ourselves can be such an emotional dilemma/challenge. In ways that I am certain others may not understand. And yes, I think Lady Crown's idea is perfect! One of us on each foot. Yes.

Lady Crown, I was thinking of you also, over the weekend, and I did feel you near. I realise that in my last post I never directly thanked you for sharing what you did about your experience, although I was very grateful. I was wondering about you and had expected that it would likely also bring difficult things back. In thanking you it is not only for revealing a similar experience but for also stepping back into the shadows a while as you did to tell me.

To be honest, when you said about facing the helplessness, I felt blasted out of my chair. I have stayed with the feeling that you recognise the crunch point for me. This issue of feeling totally helpless is really hard right now and this weekend I really just sat with feeling someone really knows and where this place is. That said, I would also appreciate any more thoughts you may about this, if you have any or feel you might like to. I haven't got it on a mental level yet. But it was a real relief of pressure to hear your words about that, I can say.

I also know what you mean about keeping these details to ourselves. I used to feel my mother was essentially a thief - that no matter what it was, she would find a way to steal the pleasure or goodness or happiness from me. I probably went to the extreme in this by stopping certain activities that I was very successful at, because whenever she was involved or knew about them her Narcissim (I'm sure I spelt that incorrectly) found a way to take it away from me. Now that I have been away from her for some years I have begun my own activities again and when I do become successful, as I really hope to, I will probably do it under an assumed name, until she dies. Only then will I feel I have the real freedom to put myself into the world, for myself. Not that I would be bothered about her knowing what I do - it's more because I know she will create trouble, as she always has, and I've totally had enough of that.

But we do need something, one thing to sustain us. I can almost hear the excitement in your post when you write about the geneology. It obviously gives you something, and lights that fire. Segaya, is singing the same for you? You will both be pleased to know that - and here's letting out one of 'those' secret things - I've started dancing again. About 10 years ago I had done the dance here but the women were just so snakey I decided I'd rather give it up than do classes with them. Then, three years ago - probably about when you bought your socks, Segaya:) - I found a dance teacher who I found was just right but she lives out of town. For three years I went now and then and it was a big effort and I was going through a divorce, and...well,you know how it goes. Well, anyway after learning about my mother's condition I felt able to start again, and was going once a month. But I have realised, especially since speaking with you both, that I so need something for myself that is nurturing of that inner space. So I started going more. It's a two hour drive each way and my exhusband is huffing and puffing, but I said, it's either that once a week, or you can look after our son full time while I rock quietly back and forth laughing hysterically to myself on a beach in the Bahamas, if you know what I mean. I think he's slowly adjusting:).

I'm so pleased to know about your thoughts about the women connection thing. People just assume mothers and daughters or women and women just 'get on'. The good thing about doing the dancing again is that it is solely women in the group and between 8 and 20 at a time. It's great because I can get to observe and be around and we have a 'thing' to base conversations about, although I pretty much jump in my car afterwards and come home. But in those lull moments in the break times and before starting, at least there is the dance to talk about. I do find it extremely anxiety provoking but I see it as a chance to learn and grow. I also get so see some of my coping strategies...Deep breath! But, for she who literally doesn't step out the front door, sometimes for days, it's a big thing. I am glad to be able to finally share a little of my life with you both, as you have been so open with me about yours.

Lots of Love,

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 03/24/08 06:18 PM

Hello Barbara

Iíd also like to welcome you to the forum. Please feel free to write as much as you need. It is easier for us to offer support if we have a lot of information about your situation. You sound exhausted and at a loss to know what to do for the best.

Whether your ex is a psychopath or not you need to follow your gut instinct and look out for your son and yourself. How old is your son? I presume he is at an age where he can tell you if he has any concerns about visiting his father and that he would make it perfectly clear if he didnít want to go.

Do you know the woman your son spends time with? I would want to know a lot about any person a child is with. She may also have problems with her new husband but has not discussed it with anyone. On a positive note she may make your sonís visit more comfortable but I do think you need to have some sort of contact with her directly.
I donít think you have anything to gain by having anything more than basic contact with your ex about your sonís visits. He may use your son as a weapon if there was something he wanted. Have the courts ordered the visitation rights that are currently in place or is this a private arrangement between you?

Unfortunately we are not able to make any sort of diagnosis but Lady Crown is right when she says to look at Dr Hareís psychopathy checklist that will give you a good indication if you suspect that is what you are dealing with. If you need any help finding this information please let us know and we can send you the links.

You may find it useful to read how other people on the forum have dealt with similar situations where children are involved. Often the children make their own minds up about whether or not they want to spend time with a parent but donít want to cause any more problems for them. Has your son got anyone else he can talk to about the way he spends his time with both of you-a grandparent, aunt or uncle?

You are obviously feeling very stressed at the moment but has something given you more cause for concern than usual or is it just getting confirmation of your exís lies that has set your mind wondering what else might be amiss?

I hope we can offer you support while you are trying to deal with this situation. You sound like a very strong, capable person so I think you will find a resolution to your problems. On a personal note-I do hope that if you do find a person you want to be with you will not let your ex destroy that. That is a huge red flag!

I look forward to hearing how you get on.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/25/08 02:49 AM

Hi Lady Crown

I read your posts and feel so pleased to see you gathering strength. You mentioned visiting your fatherís grave and was wondering what your relationship was like with him. How did he fit into the family dynamics? How long have you been without him?

I hope you donít mind me asking these questions, itís just that I would like to have a fuller picture of your childhood. I know sometimes one parent chooses to keep the peace and not challenge what goes on in the family, is this what happened in your case? I presume you have some good memories of your father or you would not be visiting his grave. I do hope so.
After all the bad memories from your past it would be good to know there was something positive you can look back on. Meeting Lord Crown must have been one of them.

Iím constantly amazed at how thoughtful you are and that you took your mother a book at Easter and pleased you were able to take the gift and not fall in with the family games. I get the feeling that they are beginning to be a bit unsure of how to deal with the person you are becoming. Some time soon Iím sure the balance will tip and you will be the person in the position of strength and you will carry on in your dignified way.

Good luck with your genealogy, is there any way you can Ďhelp yourselfí to the albums and information your mother has without letting on? I wonder if you will turn up any other personality disordered people in your family.

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/25/08 05:55 AM

Hi Jan,

I've tried to edit an old message I posted and I notice there is no edit facitility. How long before a meassage stops being able to be editted?

Many thanks,
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/25/08 06:52 AM

Hi Sapphira

As far as I'm aware there is no time limit on editing a post so I'm not sure why you have encouintered this problem. Is there any way I can do this for you if you are still not able to do it? Perhaps give it one more try to see if the problem has resolved itself. The only thing I can think it may be is if you have logged out or been kicked out due to a failed internet connection.

Let me know how you get on.

Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 03/25/08 09:54 AM

Hi, Jan.

No, I don't mind the questions at all, don't worry. My relationship was both bad and good. Unfortunately, he drank, and when he did, I was the only one struck, chased out, blamed, etc. My whole life I was told that he drank because of me. I was the youngest child, and named after his mother. He was a very sad and anxious man, didn't go out, didn't have a single friend, was treated like dirt by his father and brother, and was very unhappy. He drank to relieve those feelings and to try to sleep. I know I can say this here on the board...he slept in the basement, and whenever we heard his foot falling on the lowest stair, everyone scattered to their bedrooms. That left me, with no bedroom, sitting there with no escape, and he would start questioning me as to where everyone was. So he always came up to an empty house (except for me). I don't know if you've ever lived with an alcoholic, but the endless repeating of the same questions over and over and over is terrible. You have to always say the right thing, and they are paranoid, so they keep checking to see if you're lying.

It fell to me, thanks to my mother, to make his sandwich for work, pour out his tea, and wake him up for dinner. That meant I had to creep down to the basement, couldn't turn on a light, make my way to the door of his "room". It was just a section of the unfinished basement with a bed in it. I would feel my way past the furnace, and head for him. I had to stop every few feet and call him. No answer. Go a few more feet and try again. I was always so scared and sick inside, and I could hear everyone upstairs getting ready for dinner, and there I was standing in the dark, terrified and shaking inside. Finally he would call out and I would say, "Dad, dinner's ready." He would mutter something, and I would have to wait, and then ask, "Are you going to eat?" because if I didn't, Mom would send me back down. Then I was allowed to escape up the stairs.

Every day when I came home, I would look for signs. All alcoholic's children do this, I know. At the front door, I would check to see what lights were on in the house, because that told me if he were up or not. Go straight to the kitchen and look at the left counter, to see if the drink was there. How many are left? Is that glass that he drinks from out? All the things you have to check to keep yourself safe. He's been gone since 1987 and I still find myself doing it.

He was such a nervous wreck that we couldn't make noise, or drag a chair or bang things. Everything was centered around keeping him quiet and non-anxious. I bore the brunt of this because when I wanted to do anything, he was used as the excuse for me not to be allowed. You can't go mail a letter, you don't need to go to the store, don't ask Dad for a ride, etc. He was afraid of everything and got mad if I wanted to do anything that would make him nervous (like leave the house). I had a part-time job working at a movie theatre a few blocks from the house. Most of the time I would walk home, but a couple of times he picked me up. He told me to stay in the lobby until he came, which I did. This one time, he pulled up at the curb, and he was drunk, and I stepped out into the street and the car. As soon as I got in and locked the door, he started yelling that I was standing on the street, and started beating me. I couldn't get out of the car, and he kept hitting me until we reached home. I jumped out and ran into the house and straight into my mother's room. She kind of hid me in there and when he came in, told him that I had not been standing in the street. He slunk off downstairs and stayed there. All she did was tell me not to tell my brothers! Instead of anyone going to him, and saying, "this will never happen again!" It was dropped like it never happened, and no-one did anything to protect or stand up for me.

So that's what life was like. I was a nervous wreck, and trapped in the house, without even a bedroom to escape into. My mother (kindly - sarcastic) said I could come in her room and sit on an 8-inch footstool at the foot of her bed while she watched TV or read. That was lots of fun (sarcastic again). Thanks, Mom. I don't really know who kept the peace; Mom constantly had us keeping him quiet, and everything revolved around him, so on the surface she did, but after his death, I was shocked to discover that nothing really had changed. He was gone, yet the selfishness, the lies, the cruelty went on.

The things I can't understand, and that enrages Lord Crown, is that I got hit, yelled at, blamed, but my lazy brothers who wouldn't even take out the garbage, got nothing. No criticism, no yelling, nothing. And the main thing I can't understand is that this man, who was treated like dirt by his father and brother, let the exact same thing happen to me. You would think that he would come down like the wrath of hell on my Psychopath sister for treating me like dirt, instead I was the one struck and blamed and stripped of everything. I will never understand that. Before his death, he said to me that my Psychopath sister was just like his brother. He should have been beating her senseless, why me?

Now, the good things. Beyond the drinking and the beatings and the hell, he was a very sad and fearful and kind man. He could have been something great. He was unable to go on vacations with us, but always endured us going, despite his fears. He never bought a gift or went out, but paid for everything we chose. He was generous and funny and wanted to be loved so much, but never felt it. Why he let my siblings develop into monsters, I don't know. I would talk to him about history and Irish geneaology and whatever family stories I could glean. He told me things about his family and his mother that no one else ever heard, probably because they didn't care, got to go out, and avoided him. I couldn't avoid him, but when he was sober, I did enjoy talking to him. I was shocked when I was 17 years old and found out that he had a brother, living 30 minutes away, whom I had never met. All he said was, "He wasn't kind to me". He would have loved geneaology being on the Internet and I wish I could have shared that with him. Plus he let me get my darling cat, and when my mother objected, he said, "She already has it in the house, and it's staying." I always begged for a pet, and didn't get him until I was 18. He taught us to swim despite being afraid of the water, and I would buy him souvenirs and books because I hated that he was left behind in the house. He never went out, as I said, but once when I was working at the movie theatre, there was a double feature that he really wanted to see. I arranged for him to come to the theatre, swore that no-one would bother him, kept open a special seat for him right by the door in case he needed to flee, kept the surrounding seats empty, and he actually came! I brought him in right past the ticket line, took him to the seats, got him popcorn and a drink, and he made it through the whole first movie. He couldn't stay for the second feature, but he did get to see the one he wanted. That's a good memory.

Jan, you and Lord Crown need to talk! ;\) He too plans on me "helping myself" to the albums, as long as it's a time when it's safe and non-detectable. He hasn't figured out when that is yet, as apparently my brother has them hidden in the attic, but he's got his sharp eyes open, and an unbeatable sense of timing!

I hope this wasn't too unbearably long, it just kept pouring out and it did me good to write it. Thank you, Jan. Sometimes I answer questions that I think are dealt with, and then while writing it, I am horrified at the description of what I went through. It's like seeing it a different way, and thinking, "that's appalling!". You are right, they are beginning to be unsure about what is going on, they know there is a change, but they don't know what that is. Of course that means the pressure will increase for me to be the other way, but that's not going to happen. Still no mention of the album or Easter. More invisibility pressure. But it's not changing how I feel, and it's not going to be okay that it happened. Thank you for your constant encouragement. Pinky hugs and love,

Lady Crown
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/25/08 05:00 PM

Dear Pinky Girlfriend...

Your posting give me several smiles.....

No, I didn't know you were Irish but....
I was looking for a queen doll and had to find one with a nice crown.
I saw this one and went on looking for another...came back to this doll and went on again... And finnaly dicided this had to be the one..I was drawn to it .
It doesn't supprise me at all though. And yes , your Lord Crown is right...sometimes I do 'know' things but it's not very conciously. Like this..I was drawn to it three times and I know then it's the one I want you to see...But I don't know the reason...
Like with christmas..I did know then you were having a bad time..But I don't go any further then that. You have a right on your own private live and it is not for me to enter that without you knowing this. I struggle with this for many years already for I want it to develope but I don't want to intrude in peoples live..You understand? So I just leave it like that.

You have to know I live in a attached house with quit thin walls. My neighbours at one side are not nice people..He thinks that he can intimidate me and she is a know all..... Now, I know he sleeps very light and wakes up with there is a sound....
I was reading your posting in the middle of the night and when I read about the socks and to name them I was laughing like I didn't for quit a long time... I swaer; I woke that neighbour!!!
Now I am wearing my Lady Crown and Sapphira!
To name them is such a nice way.... I have to put them on now because having you two close is so special.... I have two pairs..The black ones are Dianne and Jan now ( hope that thats oke ladies??? no insult ment) And the white ones are Lady Crown and Sapphira !!
My feet feel nice and warm now and I am not used to that so that way you are always on my mind..nice isn't it..And always very close!!! Thank you for that very, very good idea!!

The geneology is close to your heart . The way you talk and tell about it make that very clear...About Prussia; I know it is part of Germany. There were two Prussia's..east and west and it depends on where your families origine is if that Prussia is still in Germany or is now in Poland..( by what I understand so far) The old Prussia was near the Netherlands .My family comes from the side of Holland that borders Germany so ...who knows!!

Anyway I know that it is tried to make my families history but nobody finished it... They got if you finish with yours I got a challange there for you!!!

I was realy shocked about what you are telling about the event with the book you brought to your mother. But, it makes me so proud to read how you are handling it. Wauw you are strongggggggggggg..........
And please take courage; Keep doing this. Don't react, don't give them any more ammunition!!!
It is so hard at first not to tell anything, not to share..because inside we keep hoping they will care somewhere..But...they don't and we keep on making ourselves so vunerable.
Is there a change that your Psychopath sister comes to your house or is she too smart to come? ???
( does the being there of your lord will hold her back?)

Thank you for your translations I love them!!!!
Hugs and lots of pinky love Segaya.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/25/08 05:33 PM

Dear Friend of mine,

You struck me.
'My mother was essentially a thief'... pffffff. This is something!!!
You put your finger right on the spot!
Why didn't I think of that discribtion??? Thats exactly how I would discribe my 'mother'......
She stole everything from me indeed. Not only material things..I didn't care about material things ever. She stole who I was to become.. My feelings, my selfimage, my trust, my love, my kindness, my selfrespect, my safety, my creativity, my talents my health, my taste for food, my joy of live, playing, kidding with others, sharing, be part of a group of people, my brothers and sister, my family ,me being able to feel welcome.... she stole it all............
I got most of it back, but it was so hard work and so much of hell to go through before I had it back...( as said; mostly)
And you discribed it all in that one sentence................
I have to let it sinck in and probably will come back to this another time....

Yesssssss I am exited about the singing...But are you sitting???
I use to dance!!

I can't anymore because my heart is to weak now. I just finished my dancing dress ( the edge of the purple dress measured 13 meters...)when I had my last heartattack. After that I tried to dance for several months but I had to let it go.
I started dancing when I was 12 and was invited in a club for the youth. I was asked to teach a group of girls to dance for the carnival ( is this how you call it? november 11 and in february he festivals are) I refused;I didn't like the festivals and didn't like the way they use to dance on them
A week later he offert me the same thing but he spoke to others and they decided that I could use the building every week for dancing lessons and the board would pay for clothes and music and everything. So there I was ; teaching girls from a bit younger than I was upto the age of 20/21 years old...If somebody didn't listen to me ( they thought it would be easy to boss me around) this man stood up, looked them in the eye and that was enough to keep them in order.... I had a great time those years and won a few prizes.
The man even went to speak to my parents to let them agree for me to do so. They didn't want to...but they didn't want anybody to know how this family was living. They didn't want any suspicion , not from him or anybody else, so for they're own sake they had to agree.
Till this day on I still don't know of this special man ever knew so much was wrong in that house!!!

It took me 3 years of grieving before I could finnaly accept (!!) my dancing time was never to come back. After that I had to find something else. Deu to me not being able to speak for the last 5 years I started with the singing. And now for the last 2 years I am the singer of a band. We started a new band just last november and we have 25 songs now already..We have lots of fun and the 3 other members, all men, are happy with me being they'r singer!!
The 4 hour drive you have to make every time you godancing says it all doesn't it!!!!
May I ask what kind of dance you are doing? Is it sacred dance? Please take time oke, if you don't want to tell it's oke also...
But...agian... our lives are so very, very simmilar!!!!
With lot of dancingand singing love Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/26/08 01:58 AM

Hi Lady Crown

Thank you for the information about your family background, it really gave me a better picture. It certainly wasnít too long. It reminded me of the book Angelaís Ashes, not that there is a direct comparison but just written in a similar way. Iím pleased that it allowed you to get angry writing about it, that is therapeutic, maybe I should ask a few more questions

How sad that your father had suffered too but wasnít able to cope and needed to drink to escape from the situation. You obviously had glimpses of the man he could be without alcohol. You didnít mention his mother, your grandmother. Did you know her or know anything her about her?

What did strike me is that the psychopathic members of your family did not try to control your father, do you think this is an example of psychopaths being confused by something they canít control?

I have a little experience of alcoholism and know how irrational alcoholics can be, anger is one of the emotions that are liberated along with lack of inhibition. The two together are not a good combination. Did your father beat you just because you were the one who was there not like your siblings or would he have taken out his frustrations on them too if they had been in reach? From what you say you have always been a caring person and looked after your father unlike your siblings who were not around to absorb his anger.

I do hope you get the information your family are withholding from you. No doubt they know how important it is to you so will do anything to cause problems getting it. They know how to pull your strings with this so if you could let them think you have lost interest they may let their guard down and you might get the opportunity to Ďhelp yourselfí. This is a very similar to what Iím going through at the moment but itís not an issue relevant to psycopathy, just a belligerent ex withholding every photo, video and personal possession of mine. Anything with any emotional value he has taken and refuses to return. He told the court they are no longer in his possession so they canít enforce him to return them. Included is the only video of my late father and my uncleís war records and memorabilia and all the records of my son growing up. He can keep all my crystal and jewellery and anything else that can be replaced, Iím not interested in possessions just memories.

Keep the family on the back foot-you are on the right track.

I look forward to hearing about your grandmother. I forgot to mentionÖmy grandfather was from Cork.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/26/08 02:03 AM

Oh Segaya

You did make me laugh! Iíve never had a sock named after me before, what a claim to fame as there are not many of us in the world who have that privilege. In fact there are only 3 others to my knowledge. Itís odd you chose me to be black, nearly everything I wear is black and always have. I rarely wear anything with colour. Itís not a reflection of my mood I just prefer it. Iím not very girly which is probably a reaction to being dressed in pink as a childÖ..I feel so sad that something as simple as that has left you and the others feeling cheated and I didnít want it. It is so humbling and I donít want to sound trite when I say that. You may not be able to translate the word trite but I mean clichťd. Children are so easily hurt and damaged and as good as my mother was and still is, she once said something to me when she was angry and I remember it to this day and it hurt. What you and the other Ďsocksí have endured must be a million times worse and I only have a glimpse of how you all might have felt.

I did find it very interesting about what you were saying about Prussia, I was aware of how the border of Poland has changed over the centuries. My exís family were from that border of Poland so my son will have a connection to that area. It would be fascinating to find out if your family and Lady Crownís have any common history.

What I do admire is how you are bringing life, fun but also practical advice and therapeutic techniques to this forum by having a deep understanding of peoples needs.
After what you have endured it wouldnít be at all surprising if you had a lot of venom to spit but all I see is a very positive outlook. I would like to use my experience of living with a kid with psychopathic tendencies to help others. I know it is very different for me because I was an adult with no emotional issues so started from a very different place.

You havenít mentioned your sons for a while, is that because things have settled a little?

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/26/08 04:56 AM

Dear Segaya,

Ahh! Well, I guess I ought not be surprised, really. But wow! I can imagine you in that lovely purple dress and I bet your were a very graceful and yet spirited dancer:)And I have to smile when I think that even back then you were leading and lighting the way. I bet there are those who will remember you and the teaching you gave and if you ever came across each other they would know who you are.

I feel so glad that there was one person prepared to stick up for you, even thyough he didn't know the full picture. It's reassuring to hear of such people and to know you had some guardian at least.

When I imgaine you as a child/ becoming young woman dancing, I have a sense of you with such freedom, and it doesn't surprise me that you did so well. Knowing what the dance gives I can imagine some of what giving it up must have been. Such a deep painful wrench. That it took three years is totally understandable. Ah, it makes me wonder about sometimes, the way Life somtimes gives and then takes. Then I read the elements you listed that had been stolen from you - just how much had been taken - only to hear you say about what you have got back. I read what you wrote, as it was written, in a line, and I had such a need...I hope you don't mind. I just needed to see, well it's hard to say. Do you mind if I write what you put like this?

My feelings

My selfimage

My trust

My love

My kindness

My selfrespect

My safety

My creativity

My talents

My possibilities....

My health

My taste for food

My joy of live


Kidding with others


Be part of a group of people

My brothers and sister

My family

Me being able to feel welcome

I just needed to look at what you wrote to consider each. Because what you say is true. These aspects were stolen and had to be fought for to regain. And these are such SIGNIFICANT facets. And I cried when I considered the loss - of just a few because there is so much in each, I need time to consider more. How easy to take from children?! How different the losing from the recovery!! Thank you for saying Segaya. For me, I can say, she stole parts of my life from me, but I have not yet got to the point where I could say as you have just what exactly. So I will sit with your words too.

And thank you for understanding that I may not be ready to tell about the dance yet. (If I could whisper it to you I would.) Just feel a bit unsure about saying otherwise. I will get there, though.

I also just wanted you to know that I was extremely happy to see your post. I want you to know that it meant a great deal to me to hear from you today - thank you:)

Know that I feel the similarity even if I don't know it in the details that need time to reveal. We started dancing at the same age, too! It amazes me, when I recall the impression what you have said about your singing has made on me and how much your zest for it has really encouraged me to make the effort, even fight, to get back to the dance. I love the idea that nothing is ever really lost - and your translation from dance to song is proof. It was really something to me that you sing as you do. Even more inspiring to know that it is a triumph of reclamation from another form! I feel proud of you and happy for you and excited because you show there is a path of renewal and hope. You are a shining star!

Lots of love,

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/26/08 10:44 AM

Dear Segaya,

I've been trying to keep going, ignoring a feeling inside but I've got to the point where I need to follow on what I feel/sense, paranoid or not. I'm not good at group things, Terrible, in fact, and for me this forum is also a group and I find myself reacting, being sensitive to things, very aware about who is included and excluded etc. It triggers stuff, as a lot of what gets posted here, also triggers. But I'm just finding myself real triggered about something I'm finding hard. I guess in a way I do see the triangle as a group and it's not from within I feel it. And not that anything has been said, more that it hasn't, to each of us in the group but I "get the message". Group inclusion/exclusion is something I'm very sensitive to. It's the little girl in me who watches as the teacher makes her way round the class speaking to each of the students, except me. Maybe she just didn't have anything to say to me or didn't want to, and there's no reason she has to. Then she goes round the class and again I'm the only one she misses. However unintentional it's hard for me. I just feel excluded and invisible and confused. That's me. It's going to be hard stepping back from you, for a while at least, because this has nothing to do with you or Lady Crown and I know I need to be in touch. I'm sorry. I've tried to rationalise this with myself, but as I said, I'm just feeling too sensitive these last fews days, after so much the last two weeks, to talk myself out of how it feels. It's just too hard and I need to step away. Please know this is not from the two of you. I tried to keep going despite this because of the connection here, but I'm at the end of my stretch with this right now. I'll be thinking of you both very much.
Love Sapphira
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/26/08 12:50 PM

Dear Sapphira

Iím so sorry to hear you are going through a bad time, I have been watching you and Segaya and Lady Crown build a wonderful supportive group and thought it was giving you all security being able to share the experiences you have in common. I hope you donít feel I was neglecting you as it certainly wasnít intended. I didnít want to intrude on the group as I donít feel I have the experience to discuss the terrible things the three of you have endured.

I know it must be so hard to write about the things you do and did not want to trivialise the depth of your emotion by commenting. I have been reading and feeling intensely sad, angry and hurt for the children you were. Sometimes I felt voyeuristic reading about your childhoods and not saying anything but I can assure you my heart was desperately wanting to speak to you, I felt there was nothing I could say at times that would make anything any better. I felt Lady Crown and Segaya could be the people to connect with directly with you as your lives have similar circumstances. I feel quite unable to come up to any expectations that you all should expect of someone communicating with you about your lives.

I do hope you donít stay away for long as we all care about you and will be very concerned knowing you are suffering and we are not supporting you.
Please donít ever think anyone would want to exclude you from anything and I know if anyone on the forum feels they have made you feel this way, they, like me will be desperately sorry.

Maybe Segaya and Lady Crown will help me say what Iím trying to put across. I donít feel worthy enough to offer help only comfort, support, love and concern. Itís a bit like saying a prayer to help someone, no-one knows apart from the person saying the prayer how much feeling and desire to help goes into it.

Remember we will be thinking about you constantly and will be looking forward to your next post. If Segaya looses one of her socks she will have a cold foot until she finds it again:(

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/26/08 01:20 PM

Dear Sapphira,

I am confused a bit....
I thought you were worried at first of people being excluded from our little group. Then I understand that YOU feel excluded from the little pinky triangle...I don't know what it is that triggered you and it's up to you to let us know or not. The point for you is that you don't feel comfortable this way and you are right to tell us!!
About groups...I know exectly what you mean..And I am so sure Lady Crown will too. How can we not. We were always the ones who were excluded, at home, at school, and everywhere we had to go. Even when people didn't mean for us to feel so..WE felt that way. And let's be honest we were excluded..people didn't realize what was going on and we couldn't tell it! So that way we were always different.

To exclude anybody is a bad thing, So I will not behave like that. As you could have noticed I respond to others as well as I respond to you and Lady Crown.
The only thing is...and there I have to agree with you ( if that is what you mean) People can feel excluded indeed. We write a lot to each other and it could be others think they cannot have a part in it. When they read closely they would know it's not a problem for anybody to join.

My heart is crying for it has to be so hard for you to write this. I know you have to follow your own feelings as they are there to do act on them. Always follow your intuition!!

But I have to be honest too... Is what you are feeling emotion or intuition, for there is a big difference between the two and it is hard to distingues them?
Are we comming too close... does it feel uncomfortable in that way? Do we make you uncertain because of our stories that are so simmilar?

I say this in care Sapphira ,not to butt in were I don't belong.
I know you have to follow your own ideas and I will miss you a lot and hope that you come to terms with those feelings soon and will return. No matter what your dicision is... I will be thinking of you and knowing that on the other site of the world is such a dear friend of mine.

I also do realize that as things just begun to get clear to you, the things we talk about here are very very much at once...I worried about it before even.....I wasn't able to stop it or put the break on and I do appoligize for that!!!.
I had to know better.....

I can only say one thing; Please come back if there is a need for you. Don't ever worry about you being welcome or that we don't want to speak with you for you will be our beloved friend... Even when it takes you a long time to come doesn't matter.. We will never be able to get you out of our heads for you are so much a part of our lives now....This can be wrong to say in the circumstances as they are, but I have to let you know...

You are a brave woman to let us know how you feel and think; a true Sapphire!!!

Please keep on taking care of yourself, keep close to yourself and be strong...You will come out of this a better person than anyone could ever expect with the way you were brought up. You will be able to be helping others on there path to live and will life it yourself...You are a loving person and bring that love to yourself please.

Blessed be Sapphira, from the bottom of my heart, blessed be!
With tears in my eyes; Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/26/08 01:29 PM

Dear Sapphira,
I have to try;

Can you make clear way you feel excluded for I can't see it..Call me stupid that's oke...
There can't be a triangle if there are not tree persons can there?
Or..and this is also possible ; You feel too much a part of it? Are you scared...?

I am sorry if you feel me intruding too much..Please ignore me than oke...
I think I am feeling your hurt..and it is not a small thing an being who I am, I like to help if there is anything I can do?
We reach's up to you to react on it..or not... But whatever you dicide; We do care and we do love you.
Hugs Segaya
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/26/08 07:09 PM

Dear Segaya,

I can be honest with you and open. This is very hard for me to hear how you are feeling because of me and mine, so I will be totally open with you even though to say this is also difficult for me and I also have to respond to Jan's post. Being so close is becoming easier and it is not that. And you never intrude. Never. It's my stuff getting triggered and I will deal with that and I need to let you understand how it's not you. I find it really hard when I notice that apart from a recent response to a direct question I made about editing, Jan communicates with everyone except me. I don't have any 'expectations' and it is only because it is so obvious to me that I am the only person NOT being approached or communicated with that it has become an issue. Being the only one not spoken to by a certain person when that person approaches and communicates with literally everyone else gives me cause for wonder when, until then, there was no cause. In the beginning I just tried to keep going, but over the last few days...well, it got too much. That is it. That is all. I wish I could have said this before hand, and you are so likely to understand a sensitivty to these things, but I couldn't. I wish I could have spared you this. I'm very sorry Segaya.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussi - 03/26/08 07:48 PM

Hello Sapphria,

I am the one that is at fault. Jan is doing her best with very limited time and juggling a lot of things personally. Unfortunately this has been the first break I have taken time from the forum due to not being fully able to type. I am so sorry that you are upset and hope we can keep the communication open. I do read everyday and admire your strength and courage.

I have found the strength and courage the Pinky Girls - all of you are showing each other with such deep compassion and understanding knowing how difficult it must be to open up.

I hope to be better able to help Jan out in the next couple of weeks.

I know and trust Jan completely for a long time and I am sure it is just a matter of her time is also very restricted and I am currently of no help to her.

Please accept my sincere apologizes for any pain being here has caused you.

All my best,

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/26/08 09:02 PM

Dear , dear , dear Sapphira,
Ohhh I am so happy, so very relieved that you are posting ....Pff I couln't stop thinking of you..feeling the pain you feel and not being able to put it in the right place.
Because you are so honest, open and brave for saying what is on your heart and mind I will do the same thing also oke....

I was thinking this evening about your postings and went over a lot of al our postings to find out what was really wrong for indeed I didn't get it...
I foudn it reading Jan's post to you.....Putting one and one together and get my intuition in, this is what I was comming to indeed.

Oke now what you are feeling and saying!
I know from Dianne she is still reading and very impressed as she reads what we write to each other...From Dianne I know Jan is reading also and is also very concerned about us all.
As you read the postings of Jan you will notice her concern with everyone and how hard she is trying to be there when needed.

When I was beginning my work I was a group leader for people who suffered abuse. I was with an organization for women who helped other women to deal with they're sexual abuse history. Now, one of the rules there were was that there had to be 2 group leaders in every group of say around 12 women who came to talk about those things every 2 weeks.
One of the groupleaders had to be a proffesional and one had to be an ex victim herself.
Not hard to guess; I was the ex victim.
So I worked along with differend proffesionals; Psychiatrist, psychologists, psychiatric nurses, wellfare workers, social workers and so on.

Do you have any idea how many times these proffesionals made me so very, very angry??
The were plane rude in my eyes..didn't have a clue what they were talking about and did make more victims of the women doing so!!!
When some of the woman was telling her story they just didn't get it.... say the totally wrong things, about something very differrent than what the woman was talking about and the women didn't tell anything anymore!! they didn't trust anymore...Didn't and couldn't open up anymore...Why??? because they didn't feel taken serious anymore...they went home hurt and in grieve .again..while suffered so much already!!!
Owwhh it made me wild with anger with these so called proffesionals....

So, ones every week I had to go to that organisation..One week for training and scholing and the other week for the womensgroup ....I felt helpless and not succeeding at all in what i wanted to achief..and got fed up with it..and opend my mouth during the training..Get everything out what was bothering me and was waiting for the others to respond..or not....!!!!
No response came for a while...Looking back on how angry and agressive I had seemed no wonder!
I was fed up with all this people calling themselves proffesionals while these women suffered and they didn't do anything to relieve they're pain..On the other side; They were adding to it by there stuppid comments! I told them it is better to shutt up then to open they're mouths and let the bull [censored] come out..They were hurting MY people and I will not tolerate that!
Ppff who was I to act like this I wonder much did I know??!!!

One of the women proffesionals started to cry and she opend up to me and the others who were there at that moment;...I will never forget it Sapphira..what a big hugs mistake did I make!!!
I was so very buzy with what I was feeling for those women in the group that I didn't have any eye for the proffesionals...And what I heard then and there opened my eyes to how others, bystanders, see things..feel things...And by god; please never ever let me feel that way!
For it made me understand from they're point of few what they are up against.
No , I will never be able to relate deep and thoroughly with people who had a nice live, for I can't even immagine how that has to be..But i do recognize what our stories make them feel..They feel inadecuite, helpless..don't know what to say or how to react on those 'heavy stories' as we say here in Holland. It scares the hell out of them to know what really happends behind closed doors and they are so very very afraid to say anything to disturbe, say wrong , make things trigger the wrong way.That they choose often to keep quite. Not because they don't care or don't get attached to those women, but simply because they feel they can't add anything. Now these women who are group leaders HAVE to say something, they feel..Have to get in contact with the women of the group ,but doing so they feel they can't reach out, they can't make the contact they really want and more and more withdraw from it in the active way. Leaving me to deal on my own...What frustrated me so much!??
I was 25 years old at the moment and just starting my work with those women..What did I know by then???? And that is what made me so very angry!

Now looking back I know it was all mis-communicating what was happening... nothing more, nothing less.

I read your postings and mine.Lady crowns and Jans and Dianna's.... I also read the response from Jan today.....Do you feel her pain as I do?...She is intuitively feeling what you ment..I even didn;t i couldn't put my finger where it had to be..Didn't understand you posting at all..As you noticed so well... She did!!

We are feeling a lot...and sometimes we are feeling victimized again ..and sometimes we are..But a lot of times it's only in our heads... Do we make things up??? No way!!!
Do you see things that aren't there..No you don't..But I think that what is happening here is a mis communication....
I can relate to what Jan is saying and meaning and I , ofcourse ..., can relate to you... clearly!!!

If I put myself in Jans shoes and go over all the postings... I have to be honest and tell you what my eyes and heart see then; be carefull Segaya for you are speaking now for somebody else who didn't give permission to do so!!!.>( keep that in mind too Sapphira, I do this on my own, so if I am wrong , I am the only one who is wrong and to blame oke...)
What if I was a person who didn't experience what a abusive youth really means to somebody's live..... look with new eyes to what is written over these few months between the women of the pinky triangle! What would I see?...How would I responed? ..or not!!.... Let's do this shall we Sapphira...together?

I would read it all and be stunned..not able to think even.. Because in my wildest dreams and nightmares I could't make this up. For no one child has to live like that. It would make me worried about all others who lived that way and are still living that will paralize me even... For there is so much going on without me and so many people even knowing about.... These things are not small, not to notice because you look easely over it,..The things these women talk about is plane torture...!!
it would give me pain in the heart as I am too one of the people who is standing by and do not know what to do, say ,help, reach out ..for what do I have to offer ..I don't know any of these things....And nothing in the wolrd could make me be prepared for what I read here..this is no a third world child that is far away..No, this is right in front of me.happening daily and those three women speak openly about it.... The only thing I can do is read it..aducate myself this way. cry for the children they were and be proud of the women they have become! Aducate others about it and offer my help in any way I can... Or... walk away from it!

There is one of the three women who has my special attention for the others are just a bit further on the way.. Seem stronger and not so delicate. This one is just starting to reach out, Just discovered what she is dealing with, namely psychopath mother and grandfather...Now this psychopath subject is something I do know a little about.. But not the way these three women do..Not by far....
So I keep reading. Sometimes, but rarely, adding some questions but always about things on the outside of the confersations.I react on socks that are named, or geneaology for that is so save I can't harm anyone that way...I think!!
What I don't know..And probably can't know, is that people who have suffered so very much are not hardend by live..they are instead very very sensible... very touchy about things concerning them being around forinstance. Picking up signals they learned about in they're youth..And I just didn't know....
I keep on the save side and not say too much ..and now this special lady who is so delicate is thinking I ignore her..Don't want her.. And the opposit is true..I like her so very much, I love her courage, her stemina, her fighting back to life. Her thoughts and the very nice way she can put them into words..sentences.stories ,so clear everybody can understand them. But I am so afraid to trigger something wrong by saying something stupid or out of the topic!!!
I am not sure of what to do.....

Now sapphira..I hope you get the same picture I got thinking about all this!
What I think is this...
Maybe ...just maybe, we do expect to much from other people..and maybe that is what is happening here on the forum;
Ohh yes, we do know other people can't relate in the details of our lives. Not even with the obvious things. There are people in this world that are never beaten..Never had a parents face above them, purple with anger and hate. Not knowing what hunger is or not being able to relate with others, because they always played with there friends!
The funny(!!) thing is that we do expect people to understand our can they??? This sensetivity is so rare..So connected to our lives, youths, to our special needs...There is really no way for anybody outside these experiences to follow us there....

Be sensible in feeling and read Jans posting to you where she is appologizing and explaining what has happend and do feel if she is meaning every word she is writing to you...For I did And I am confinced she is for real!!!

Please . please ,please concider again and stay???
No I am not begging.
I am pleding for you to stay where you belong..With the little pinky triangle...
With people who love you, care about you and certainly don't want to loose contact with you.
Please believe me as I asure you Jan and Dianna are very loving people who do this from they're hearts and nothing is pressuring them to do it! it is really because they care..
What can I say or do more dear Sapphira..I hope you undertand completely what I want to say and make clear...
We are not the easiest people to deal with, with all our experiences and feelings..consider that please and give Jan a break for she so diserves it!!!
And we just don't want to loose contact with you...
Love, love, love and more love coming your way!!! Segaya
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 03/26/08 11:24 PM

Oh, Segaya, I just read the above and I feel so bad for you! It's a terrible pain to feel excluded, and I don't want you to feel that way. I believe that Jan is very compassionate and intuitive, and she, having had the fortune of not suffering the damage we did, knows when to step back, so to speak, and wait for the fellow sufferers to take the lead, and speak from their own experiences. It's amazing that someone who didn't grow up like this would run this board, and I assure you she feels as deeply for you as for any of us! I think it's good to have administrators who don't police the place.

Maybe Segaya and I have been hogging you! \:\) We would all miss you so much if you stayed away. I've benefited from your viewpoints and feelings and descriptions. You were so right about me having to step into the shadows to write what I did, but it was worth it of course, for your sake.

I know the feeling of being excluded; I've been on non-related boards (movies, girly stuff, etc.,) and sometimes I would see all these answers to other posts but nothing about mine. Having been rejected all my life, I took it personally and it really hurt! Please don't feel that what you say doesn't precipitate an answer; it's very meaningful and very important and extremely helpful to us. I wonder if the increased sensitivity is a side effect of the "earth shaking up" for you. Sometimes that can happen during periods of significant change. Unfortunately, what uninjured people wouldn't even notice, resonates painfully through us.

Please do reconsider and stay with us. I would miss you so much, as would the others, not because you are just a "sounding board', but because you are an intelligent, interesting and good woman, who has a viewpoint and message that is valuable to us all.

I hope to hear from you soon, and be good to yourself.

Pinky hugs and love,

Lady Crown
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/27/08 01:36 AM

Dear Everyone,

I'm sorry that I over edited what I wrote and left the final copy giving you all the impression I was going to disappear for good. I need to gather myself because I know I'm being triggered and need to deal with that stuff. My brain is in total overload at the moment and I read and re-read your posts and there are things you are saying that make sense and I understand and know where you are coming from. It's just that only a small part is actually going in because of the overload. So much of what you say is valid and valuable. I just can't fully absorb it right now. My brain is in another place from my feelings to a degree. With all that has happened over the last two weeks I have been very aware of needing to rest as much as possible and the shift going on. But it's never the ones we prepare for that get us, is it?

If I didn't feel safe with you all I would not have said anything at all. I have never, and I really mean never, said anything. There would just have been dust. So I needed to step back a bit so as to not pull totally back. One part of me that jumps on bare back and disappears from burning bridges. But another part of me seriously doesn;t want to do that this time. Not because I have given up burning my bridges but because I know that - or let me honest, part of me knows and the other is willing to take a chance on maybe, just maybe. Well, you know what I mean.

There are your loving comments and it's like I am so dried out like a prune wrinkled desert that no matter how much water f love gets put on me, I know some will get lost in run off because I'm too dried out to absorb it. Then there are your thoughts, and the part of me that really understand and knows what you are saying and I want to respond to these. Then there is another part of me that is only able to say what she perceived, and I do need to explain that better too. And then there is just the fact that I am even still communicating - that I even put it out and that I put it out because I feel a sense of trust!! Oh my god. That scares me and is such a relief to feel too. And there is this response - such a huge response that scares me because it is so caring and I am so not used to this. And then there is the fact that in this response is so much understanding of the fragilities and hypersenitivites and fears and where and why these are as they are. There is acknowledgement of these and also questioning of these. I feel so bad that I upset you all like this.

This is everywhere and I really don't know if it makes sense because I can't read my own post any better than yours at the moment, but I generally get the gist of what you are saying and I know that I will keep writing, and I will respond. Just that I won't be able to do that very fast. I also feel that if I clarify myself a little more that hopefully I will make more sense. Please know that it is very hard for me to step any further with this right now. I do feel stretched internally a very long way with it. Just overload and the internal conflict between the sunset cowgirl and - well, I can't even see her/say her/ but the 'other part'. I'm sure you will know what I mean.

Please understand I will of course look at things from another perspective but right now I'm still trying to deal with all that has and is coming up then and even in all the incredible response and care.

Ok. I so hope this comes out as I mean, for the sake of clarity only. These are just my feelings, and reason isn't much to do with it. I just found it really hard when you Segaya and you Lady Crown each got a large wonderful post, one after the other and then a short while later you both got another similar post and the new people who came also got one. I know in other posts we were mentioned together but it was the individual ones that I was referring to, just recently. I don't mean to drag on, I'm just hoping to clarify the basis for my feelings, on one level of course. The reason I just wanted to pull back a bit is because I know it is my trigger and I know the delicate state I'm in right now and I know I ought to understand from another point of view, and I will. But right now I'm just overloaded with myself and I need to look at this in me, to clear my mind/heart/space to see/understand/respond in return.

There is so much richness and gifts and growing and learning and challenging here. It makes me cry. It is such a huge adjustment in myself to BElong somewhere! The longing to BE some where.

Another layer: actually I don't know the words yet. And I'm feeling to you Jan about this. This in myself and then I can bring this new learning forward.I just need to proceed in the unknown a bit and perhaps it wil appear.

There's just so much. Segaya, because you said about this I have to say: Last night, after writing to you, I went to bed and my last thought was, gee I had become a really tough person. Hard as nails in certain ways. Because that is what it took, at times. But last night I went to sleep knowing that I didn;t want to be around people or situations that required this of me. This morning I got up at 3am with all these thoughts, cried for 2 hours, realised I was getting overwhelmed and wrote that post.

Vulnerability. That is it. That's it. New word-feeling connection. I just need to go right now but I will be back. I can't write another word.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/27/08 09:59 AM

Hi Sapphira

I'm so pleased you have posted but I feel so sorry that your mind is going through so much turmoil. You recently opened Pandora's Box and all the terrible things you have endured are now floating all around and you can't grab them and get them back in the box and out of view. You see them all around you and now you have to face them whether or not you can cope each day. I suppose there will be good days and bad days.
You have been incredibly strong but now you must feel you have made yourself 'vulnerable' by opening up to the extent you have and in such a short space of time, your strength will be heavily tested for a while.

Please don't feel you have to respond to any posts until you are ready but I do hope you keep reading so you know we are all still here waiting for you. There isn't a day goes by that I don't think about all the members even the ones who haven't posted for years. I would love to know if they have found the peace of mind they were looking for and they just don't need our support any more. Silence doesn't always mean that no-one cares.

I see you as such a self sufficient person that I hold back from giving you advice, I feel you are the one who could advise me. I am full of admiration that you are the person you are with great intelligence and insight. I didn't understand how vulnerable you really are as you have such a courageous personna.

I have heard it said that we have one mouth and two ears for a reason and was putting that into practice. Sometimes we just say too much and it's not necessary, listening is often the best thing to do. We can then go away and take the information with us and take time to think about what has been said and what we can do when the time is right to speak.
Also maybe you can allow yourself to ask for help if you ever need it as sometimes we don't like to offer if it hasn't been asked. It feels presumptuous to offer advice to someone who has more knowledge than ourselves when it hasn't been requested.

Perhaps we can help you grab those things that have got out of the box and store them for you? Maybe we can dispose of them for you when you decide they are finished with.

Take care of yourself and please let us know how your are from time to time.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/27/08 10:56 AM

Hi Lady Crown

Thank you for being so understanding. As you say sometimes we need to step back and let others who have more knowledge step up and take the lead. I think both you and Segaya are the best people to support Sapphira right now. I hope to learn more from you all and will watch cloesly to see how you progress with the synergy of a group with experiences in common.

I'm sure if new members come to the forum they will be immediately welcomed and will be 'looked after' by the most appropriate person.
We all have such different experiences of psychopathy that we are like "specialists" in our fields. My experience and knowledge is about children with psychopathic tendencies which is the other end of the spectrum to your experiences.

It's great to watch members join the forum and blossom form being scared, timid, feeling unable to escape their nighmares and grow into strong people who can then go on to help others. I feel if I don't use my bad experiences then all the anger, frustration, fear of the future and feelings of helplessness will have been for nothing and I would not be able to get rid of those negative emotions.
I came to the forum in a tailspin and didn't know how to get information and help and Di was a lifeline.
She was the first person I could discuss my problems with and she listened and took me seriously. It gave me so much comfort to be able to share all the frustration with an understanding person. I want to be able to give some of that back.

I'm constantly amazed at your incredible journey and hope this forum has, in part, been responsible for this. I suppose it has a lot to do with where you are on that journey when you join the forum. Some people find it and try and understand what is going on with a psychopath in their lives and others will have done most of the research and looking for confirmation that they should take no blame for their circumstances and are ready to move on but just need that validation and support.

Keep travelling!

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/27/08 03:00 PM

Dear Jan,

Thank you very much for your post. It helps me a lot to know how you see things. I am totally exhausted but wanted to respond to your post, at least briefly. I asked myself what was it I expected from Jan? I know that if it was any particular advice etc, then I would have asked.And I will in future. Really, it was just an hello. Just as you were doing with Segaya and Lady Crown. I couldn;t understand, hence my confusion, and I'm also very aware that I so don't know you, or Dianne, and that if I did, things were surely be clearer. As you said, I've opened Pandora's box and am running to keep up with all the processing, and despite wanting to reach out, my energies have been so low. I can appreciate about what you mean about the persona. People have told me I am strong before, and while I know I am, I am also very aware of the weakspots and frailties. Because I knew so little about you I couldn't place what was happened, and I do hope that we can connect some more sometime not too far away and bridge the unknowning between us. I'm really not sure if I have said any of what I meant to say when I sat down to write this. But I will send this off hoping I have and with the promise that I will post more, perhpas small bite sized pieces at a time. Please know I do appreciate knowing how it is for you and your care, which is obvious. Thank you Jan!

Love Sapphira
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/27/08 04:00 PM

Dear Sapphira...
There I am..sitting and writing to you and then... all what I wrote just dissapeared from my computer grgrggrgrggrr I will come back to you again but you have to give me a bit more time oke..
Love Segaya
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 03/27/08 04:12 PM

Dear Segaya,

Please don't feel any rush. I am fine with things slow right now anyway. Not much is going in as it's all a bit back logged. I know you are all here and I too am just going real slow but my thoughts are close.
Love Sapphira
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/27/08 06:44 PM

Hi Sapphira

Thank you so much for taking the time to post when you are wacked. Of course we will connect, good friendships don't happen without a lot of work. Friendships evolve over time and when we learn about each other then we get to know without saying anything what is the best thing to do to be a good friend.
Don't worry, everything you said is perfectly clear. Even when you are working through adversity you are spectacularly articulate. Have you ever been a teacher? You are so analytical I just wondered if you have science background.

At some point when you feel up to it I would love to hear about your career, I was just wondering whether your traumatic childhood spurred you on or whether you would have followed the same career path anyway.

Take as much time as you need if you want to reply, I will just be happy to hear from you. Just a couple of words are enough to let me know you are OK.

I hope you don't mind me trying to make you smile...I would love to join your 'pinky' group but to this day I still can't wear pink because my mother dressed me like a pink birthday cake!

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/27/08 06:57 PM

Dear all,

I can't help myself....
Jan, do you know how many shades of pink there are?...Pick your favorit..we promise to laugh... eeuuhhh sorry!

Blame it on the's 2 o'clock in the night where I live..we dutch get funny then.. certainly when this relieved!!!
Love Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/28/08 12:30 PM

Hi Segaya, Sapphira and Lady Crown

I went out today and bought a scarf-in many shades of pink! See I've started on my rehabilitation:)

I know that your group is not at all exclusive and that you would all welcome anyone coming to the forum for informtion, I'm sure your collective experience would be so valuable to any new members.

Have a good weekend.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 03/28/08 07:43 PM

Hi dear Jan,

You proved with buying that scarve to be a valuable member of that pinky group....
In my mind the pinky girlgroup is all about brave, heroic women who are to overcome they're childhood trauma's...

I heard about the red haded ladies...Ladies all over the world who come together to have a nice time and do fun things. They all wear red hads if they go out together.
We can start our own movement with this pinky thing!!

I love it..and I will go to towncentre this week to buy me a pink scarve also! Promised!!!
Love and hugs for you all Segaya
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 04/04/08 10:21 PM

Hi, everyone. I've been off for a bit, and I wanted to check in with everyone. I know the board has been silent for a while, and I hope everyone is doing okay and coming back. As for me, I've seen my mom once since the Easter debacle, and she never brought it up. Today I had to go over for a quick errand, and my brother came down. He said hi, and I looked at him with contempt and said "Hi." Very flat and angry. He and my mother stood there completely shocked, and then kept looking at each other and looking at me. No one said a word. I finished what I was doing, and they had no idea what to do. However, he lacked the courage or integrity to ask me why I was angry. I kissed my mom goodbye and walked out. I have never seen them so nonplussed. It was great.

As I got in the car, I realized how stupid their reaction was. It is amazing to me that they were so appalled at such a mild thing that I did. One flat syllable. They were simply poleaxed. And it occurred to me that there is something wrong with their reaction to such a mild thing. Can you imagine if I had smashed a plate or raised my voice? It shakes their insane world that he is not some genius above us on a pedestal who can't be called on anything, and she is such a martyr, that who could be angry with her? They can't get over the fact that I had the unmitigated effrontery to be angry with them for how they spoke to me.

This is the kind of training that kept me from speaking, or arguing. I was trained very early that it wasn't safe for me to get angry or raise my voice. And now they are over there furious; he's probably having a raging tantrum and she's being all upset in the sitting room.

But I feel good about it; I didn't allow them to ignore what had happened, and I showed my anger at the way I was treated. It's a big step for me, to fight for myself, and I was glad I did.

I have to go now, but I hope our pinky girls are still online and coming in here. Do post again, and let us know how you all are.

Love and pinky hugs,

Lady Crown
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/05/08 02:47 AM

hee Lady Crown,
So glad to hear from you again....
While reading your posting I found myself feeling soooooo proud!!!
You go girl!!!!
Oohh you took the power from them and now you left them without them knowing what came in you to you and not knowing at all how to handle it hwahwhah Great!!!!

This is exactly how to do it. This is indeed what I was talking about. The same kind of thing happend to me when I changed my attitude towards my son..he just doesn't know how to deal with it. As long as I gave (!!!) him the power he could use it..But the moment I took my power back he was like paralized.
You are now like water in they're hands..they feel it, but can't hold on to it..the only thing left for them is wet hands, but nothing to drink from....
So yes, I do think they will have a fight in there..I do think they will argue about it, without them being able to do anything about it that can help them...

Owww I wish I could have been there to support you.... No, not getting involved ;... YOU have to do it, but this moment of 'victory' is so very importend for your live from now on.
I would have liked to be there only to see it and enjoy this great moment with you.

But my dear Lady.... be prepared...This is probably not over yet!!!
They will hate losing control and maybe they will even try harder to get it back....
But I don't think they will succeed in this plan for now you know, day by day, you are stronger..Now you felt it, been there... wauw!!

it's like a peace of land were people go..or a garden without a fence. People, children are used to just walk over it. When the owner decides to put a fence in, he will use a small one so people will understand he likes private use of it..But people will not believe he is serious, or will even discuss with him that his decision is out of order... So they keep on walking/playing on his peace of land. So he has to put a bigger fence and maybe after that an even bigger one. After a while people get use to the idear that this garden is not theirs to walk over and they start respecting the possesion of the owner and leave the garden alone...And because of that the owner will be able to put a nicer fence that keeps the people out, but allow them to share the nice garden for he made it beautiful.

People are use to a certain kind of way to do things. They will not give up that easy. So prepare and get even stronger in that feeling of being who you are and keep doing what you are doing for this is giving the result you wanted for so many years now!!!!

Lady Crown...You made my day!!!!
Love and pinky hugs Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/05/08 02:50 AM

For lady Crown

gooooo; bbrroooeeemmmmmm.....
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/05/08 02:53 AM

For Sapphira, with lots of love an hugs and all you might need;
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/05/08 02:56 AM

For Dianna because she is such a beautiful woman who can use a little support!
Dianna, The Swan is a messanger, they are very loyal and carring, they look after each other even if they don't know the others..Just like you do..Thanks for being there!!
Love and hugs and plesae look after yourself!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/05/08 03:11 AM

For Jan,
Jan thank you for all you are doing and all the clear advise you give. In you postings it is always clear and transparant what you mean and you always are very respectfull to people with questions..So here is a diamond for you, Sorry, it's not big enough....But yeah that's what happends if you are the biggest isn't it!!

Love and hugs Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/05/08 04:10 AM

Hi Segaya

Thank you so much. What a lovely thought and I feel very touched by your comments.

When I was going through hell I found this forum and Di helped me through a very bad time. She had such kind words and great understanding and I have learned so much from her. Her hard work to provide support and information and to pass on her knowledge has been a lifeline to so many people.
I hope I can do all I can to help her and to give something back.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/05/08 04:28 AM

Hi Lady Crown

It's so good to hear from you.

Iím amazed at your strength and resilience. I wish I could have watched you steal the show, I have the biggest grin on my face. You have taken back your Ďself worthí. Now you know how itís done it would be great if you could pass on your knowledge and experience to help others do the same.

You must have punched the air when you walked away from your mother and brother. They must be left in a state of total confusion.
I think Segaya is right that they might react by trying to pull you back down again as we all know psychopaths thrive on control and you have taken away part of who they are.

We are all here to cheer you on so if you do feel intimidated by them at any time just look beside you and we will be right there! Just picture us all standing beside you as deal with them. Strength in numbers!
Psychopaths also hate dealing with more than one person at a time as they like to isolate their victims but you will never be on your again now you have your troops beside you.

Iím so pleased that you have shown how to make such a quantum leap a reality.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussi - 04/05/08 08:33 AM

I recently bought a pink blouse, does that count?


Jan, I am eternally grateful for all your work and kindness to all that enter the forum and when you agreed to be an Admin. it has helped me so much.

Posted by: Carolyn

Re: General Discussi - 04/07/08 02:04 AM

Hello, I cant believe my luck in finding this website. I have never ever felt so alone in my life and am questioning my sanity. I have a son who has made my life hell from since he was a young child.

I am so isolated and trust no one as he has managed to turn many of my friends against me for being such a bad mother to this 'lovely young man'.He tells them I have for no apparent reason chosen him out of my three boys to make life hell for. He is very convincing and goes to visit them with tears saying all he wants is his mother to love him.They then in turn berate me for being so cruel.He has even managed to fool the medical profession on a number of occassions.

When we are alone he torments me for hours about how bad I am and will sometimes refuse to stop until he sees me cry, only then will he go to sleep and he sleeps very well while I am so distraught. I have lost days at work over this and nearly lost a job when he kept ringing me at the office from the time he got home from school until the time I get home. When I asked him to stop he just did it more.

He has made sure I have been single for the last nine years and tells people I am an alcoholic who abandoned him at eleven which is just not true. He has also posted on my space that his father tried to kill him four times. At fourteen he got the living away from home allowance (I am in Australia) based on that I was allegedly abusive and yet there was no evidence of abuse, no past history of abuse and I actually had, and have a special clearance to work with children and disabled people.Apparently all you have to do here in Australia is find a friend to back up your statement about your parents and they will pay you to live away from home. I in turn had no right to hear the allegation specifics as that would be infringing on his privacy. This only served to justify to him that i am bad. He is very intelligent and so clever with his words that I end up confused myself on what is true and not true and wonder if I am a failure as a mother. When I try to be affectionate to him he rejects me even though he tells everyone all he wants is to be loved.

Last night i was at work looking after a lady with Downs Syndrome when I recieved a call that my son was in hospital threatening suicide. I managed to get someone to fill for me and went to the hospital where they were all giving love and attention to this 'poor young man' as they put it. He was discharged into my care and on the way home started yelling at me that its all my fault - "all my friends and your friends know how f...ed up you are. Another sleepless night and another lost day and wages.

Today he was calling me a horrible c..t who abandoned her children and was threatening to burn the house down . I told him that if you keep saying how horrible I am and that everyone thinks I am that I may as well be and kicked him out. I am a bit scared of him but cannot do anything until he actually does something but MOST of all I am so sad not just for me but for him, he must be so unhappy but i no longer know what to do.

Thanks for letting me vent I just dont feel I can tell anyone here about my hell as they never believe me.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/07/08 03:53 AM

Hello Caroline,
Rest asure...we not only believe you..we life or have lived it!!!!
i see so much in your story that is recognizable for me.
I am a mother of a now 26 year old son who is a psychopath. I luckely have another son ( 18) who is not. This younger boy kept me sane!!

Let me tell first of all; No, you are not a bad mother..More so; You are a great mother who uptill today is still trying all her best to help and comfort this young man.
When all the world seems to believe those stories it's normal to doubt yourself. But look at you other sons!!
Do they say the same things?
What do they think of their brothers behavior??

My son is also telling horrible stories about his youth and the sad thing is indeed ..without ever asking my opinion, everybody believes it and takes it as he is telling his sad, sad stories...
This can make you angry, disappointed, furious, helpless and all you can think of...and yet, you can't do anything about it!!!

I have to tell you, sadly enough, there is nothing you can do to change him....
The only thing in your power is to change yourself. Make yourself strong, get some selfesteem again, People who believe him are not your friends are not on your side.....

The only way he can goon doing in your live, playing with your heart and mind, is that you let him do so......
Take back your own power, get control again and the very best thing ( but hard....) is to get him out of your live...or as far out as possible....
getting back the peace in your live is importend. Not only for you, but also for the rest of your family.

Please keep telling your story and be asure we will read and react on
them...Feel welcome cause you are!!!!
Love Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/07/08 06:33 AM

Hello Carolyn

Iím pleased you have found the forum and hope we can offer you some support and that you no longer feel so isolated now you can talk to others who understand what you are going through. We all know how difficult it is to talk about things like this to anyone not closely involved. Itís almost impossible for outsiders to see it unless they have been a victim of the person you are talking about and even then they may not realise they are a victim.
You donít say you think your son is a psychopath Iím but just guessing the reason you came to this forum is you were looking for information on the disorder. Have you looked at Dr Hareís Psychopathy Checklist?

How old is your son? Does he work or is he still in education? What about his father?

Please donít doubt your own sanity that is exactly what your son wants to achieve and donít even think about him being unhappy. A true psychopath (if he is) has no genuine emotions and feelings so he will not be hurt although he may get very angry.
You did the right thing to kick him out, he has made his choices and chooses not to behave in the right way so there are consequences.
There is also absolutely no point showing him any affection, itís a waste of time and puts him in control. Control is the big issue which is the name of the game. He has control to isolate you, scare you and fool everyone he has contact with.

The first thing to do and what I would advise everyone to do is keep a diary of every event and conversation, maybe your other sons might see what is going on and they are being duped too. Try to find someone you can share your problems with, you might be surprised to find someone can see you having such a terrible time and will welcome the opportunity to be asked to help you cope. Many people feel their interference would not be welcome so keep their distance but not because they donít care.

You need to take back control of your life and that will be so hard after being dragged down for so long. Your son can live with one of his brothers and if he is need of any affection (which I doubt) then they can play that role. They will probably see things differently if they are responsible for him.

I hope you feel able to make plans to remove your son from his position of being able to do this to you and hope we can support you while you find the strength.

There must be a lot more you would like to say so please feel free to do so when you are ready.

Posted by: Carolyn

Re: General Discussi - 04/07/08 06:41 PM

Hello, thank you so much for the replies. You have no idea how much they mean to me but then again you no doubt do. My other sons are beautiful young men. My oldest is 22 and already buying his own home, my youngest is fourteen, doing well at high school and working part time at McDonalds.

They are aware of how my 19 year old is and have incurred his wrath at times but he saves the most of it for me and the worst is done when we are alone.When my oldest stood up to him once my son would taunt me that nothing would please him more to see Jason (my oldest and his brother) die.

My two boys are also very forgiving and Cameron can be charming and fun to be with, so their relationship with him is very hot and cold. I try not to talk too much about my problems with Cameron to them as it is not fair to them and I think at times they are just sick of Cameron dominating our lives.

Camerons father is at times supportive to me but at other times is very sucked in by Cameron so it is also hot and cold.

On two occasions Cameron has let his guard down in front of others (nurses at the hospital) who told me they were very concerned with what they saw. I once managed to get him to an analyst who decided that there was nothing wrong with him, Cameron laughed so much as we left the doctors surgery.

He has trashed a car which I had borrowed while mine was in service so I had to pay for it. When I took his xbox 360 (for a percentage of compensation of what I had to pay)he began smashing things in my home.I got into my car to get away ( by this time my car had been returned), and he jumped on his motorbike chasing me and riding beside me screaming that he was going to kill me and no one takes his stuff and gets away with it. The police were called but they went and found Cameron elsewhere where he must have put on the charm and they then advised that I would have to be very careful if I wanted to go further as in fact I may be the one being charged.

Cameron has had about 20 jobs already and about 8 vehicles.One day he is going to go back to university and the next he is going to be a nightclub bouncer and wants me to give him $800 for the course.

Cameron knows my vulnerabilities, he knows I am lonely for a partner and he ensures I do not have one, He also knows where I do feel some guilt over parenting decisions made in the past, nothing serious but he plays on them and magnifies them so I end up questioning if it really is all my fault . He also has made me question my friends and enjoys it when they stick up for him.

I just want to curl up in a ball and die but I have to look after my teenage boy. I know i have to cut him out of my life but the thought of not knowing how he is pains me and me cutting him out will only give him further ammunition as to my being a terrible mother. I just see no way out of this hell but will listen to all suggestions.

Thank you.

Yes I have read the checklist and he is definitely in the category of psychopath.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussi - 04/07/08 08:09 PM

Hi Carolyn, welcome to the forum. I know you will worry about him but it might be more important to weigh out the odds of keeping him in the house. What are your concerns about kicking him out? He has no ability to have any compassion or care if he is a Psychopath. I would think seriously about making that step since there is no cure, only more harm and pain for you. You did nothing wrong, he was born that way, it sounds like you are a very caring person but there comes a time that a tough decision will need for the safety of everyone in the house. It is well noted that his behavior will only escalate the more he can get his way with everyone in the home.

He will probably say bad things if he is kicked out this will be the real test of who is your friends and who isn't, hold your head up high knowing you have been to hell and how much more can a person take?

I feel very sorry you are left in this situation. We are all here to listen and help in any way possible.

Posted by: Carolyn

Re: General Discussion - 04/08/08 04:43 AM

Hello again, Thank you and yes I will determine to hold my head high. I feel so much better corresponding here and reading others stories. It seemed that all I could ever find information on was to do with psychopaths who were violent or killers, political leaders or in the workplace. There was nothing about families. In the family it is much harder to sever ties and especially when you are a mother to your child (and in no way here am I dismissing the hell that happens with a psychopath partner, sibling or other relation).I just find it so hard to let go.ButI guess he would know that wouldnt he?

Once again thank you, this is a lifeline to me. Carolyn
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 04/08/08 09:10 AM

Hello Carolyn

You are not a terrible mother, you are a kind, caring person who has brought up two sons who have no issues so your skills are not in question. The fact that he has got to 19 and you have only just given up on him is remarkable, your strength is to be admired. All parents make some mistakes, kids donít come with a manual so sometimes itís trial and error. Do not feel guilty for small mistakes, only someone who is perfect doesnít make any and I donít think Iíd like to meet that person. We learn from mistakes. You probably did exactly the same things with the other two boys and hasnít affected them, they may go on to do things differently if they have children by learning from these experiences.

Saving the worst behaviour for when you are alone is so typical, itís well know that psychopaths isolate their victims and use charm to manipulate everyone else. My partnerís kid used to smile so sweetly at anyone in the room then turn to glare at me with sheer evil in his eyes then turn back again with a smile that appeared to have never left his face. Of course only I saw that and it didnít seem worth bringing it to anyone elseís attention as they would think it was totally in my imagination. One up to the psychopath! It took a while but I would eventually say sweetly in front of everyone present ďdonít look at me like that when you think no-one is lookingĒ His face was treat to watch but I did have to suffer the consequences later such as him destroying or stealing something of mine and wetting the bed was a given. (Even at 14 years old)

The secret was not to let him think I was the slightest bit concerned. Never show any emotion, not a smile or a frown and never, ever let him know how you feel. Never show anger or even annoyance. Say contradictory, confusing things so he hasnít a clue what is the right scenario, keep him on the back foot as far as knowledge is concerned.

Is there any chance Cameron can go and live with his father full time? If his father is sucked in then let him be, he will find out eventually if he becomes a victim and then maybe understand what you have been tolerating for far too long. Your son is an adult and technically old enough to live on his own so maybe he would be better living somewhere he doesnít have to share with anyone else. If he was able to manipulate the system to get payments for imaginary abuse then Iím sure he is capable of coping. If he comes to the attention of the criminal justice system then he may get somewhere more Ďsecureí to live.
Many young people leave home by the time they are your sonís age so even if he was not the way he is you might have had to let go and watch him make his own mistakes.

You should not beat yourself up as your son has choices and has made the decisions he wants and there is no way you will change that so he will have to put up with the consequences. You know that if he were to become the son you hoped for you would take him back into your heart without a secondís hesitation. Apart from the fact that this will not happen, he does not want this. His choice!

I understand how difficult it is to give up on your own son, I have been watching my partner going through terrible pain and recrimination of being in this situation but he now knows he had no choice but to give up on his son. His kid was determined to isolate his father to keep control over him just like your son is doing.
I think you need to make out to your son that you have no need of a partner as he will use that and anything else for his own purposes to have control. I donít think many people would have put up with my partnerís kid as his behaviour got out of control in his efforts to get rid of me, he knew I was the one who could see right through him and he had no control over me. The kid was out to destroy everything that got in his way and wanted control over everything and he could only keep that control over one person at a time. He didnít function in a group.

My partner has to think of his kid as dead and having to go through the grieving process. He lost the son he wanted not the one he got. He had hopes for so long that things would get better but the longer he held on to that hope the worse things got.

Some things in life just do not have the ending we want and no amount of trying to change that will bring any about a different outcome. I hope this is not discouraging, it certainly isnít meant to be but just to let you know that you are not alone making these decisions.

You will know when the time is right for you to make choices and remove yourself from the situation but in the meantime I hope you keep looking at the forum to get some support.
There is some information in the resources section, a link to ĎHow to Cope with a Teenage Psychopathí written by a step-parent, itís excellent advice. If you canít find it just let me know and Iíll find the link for you.

Could I ask you what red flags alerted you that your son was not like his brothers? What was he like from babyhood?

Posted by: Carolyn

Re: General Discussion - 04/08/08 04:40 PM

Hello Jan, Thanks for the words of encouragement.I knew from a very early age that there was something wrong. Even as a baby and toddler he had no desire for any closeness and affection. He would also throw temper tantrums if things did not go his way. He hated authority at school, was extremely intelligent and felt he was above all others there including the teachers. He made death threats to a girl whose family called the police but he laughed it off and they eventually put it down to childhood pranks with a severe warning to never do it again.When he would do some bizarre or cruel things i had on occasion 'asked are you crazy ?', when i was at the end of my tether. This would send him into absolute fits of rage and at times I thought my god maybe he thinks he is, but then again probably no. I soon learned to not say that no matter how exasperated i was.

He has lived with his father on and off but his father is in denial about the real problem and keeps thinking he can offer guidance and fix him. i have kicked him out of home but now I need to 'kick' him out of my heart which will take a long time . Once again Thanks.
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 04/08/08 09:52 PM

Dear everyone,

Thank you for your cheers! I knew when it was happening, even though I was the only one who could "see you", that my four Pinky girls, Segaya, Sapphira, Jan and Dianne, were ranged at my back! And of course, Lord Crown! Yes, it was a great moment, and I really enjoyed it.

Here's the update: my Psychopath sister called and I played her like a cheap organ. She spilled, unwittingly, everything that had happened. Mom said to her that I was mad about not grabbing the album overnight, instead of the real issue which was the insulting and resentful way they spoke to me. She would prefer it to be about "my" selfishness and greed, instead of being about consideration and decent behavior to others. I knew once the rage died down, that is the version they would justify themselves with, so it was no surprise. So I found out everything that I wanted to know, and Psychopath sister still doesn't know exactly what happened. She tried to pump my mother, and only got that version.

Since then, it's been quiet, thank God. Jan and Segaya, you are so right about them going to try to pull something else to get me back in. It's weird, that my mother started complaining to my Psychopath sister about how we don't get along and people don't fight over things. She wants to see it as greed instead of acknowledging that people have sentimental feelings about photos and the like, that should belong to all the children. She hands everything over to this lazy control freak and doesn't care how we feel about it. She wonders why we "don't get along", and yet this is the woman who, when my great-aunt left me her sister's ring, my grandmother who I'm named after, Mom pulled it off my finger at the funeral.

Hey, Segaya, Lord Crown wants to know if that means a Ferrari is going to show up in the driveway! \:D

I will try to figure out what contributed to this success and post it if I can. Obviously a great debt is owed to Lord Crown who has been trying to teach me about people and how to protect yourself for years. He is very proud of me too, and also wished he could have seen it.

Has anyone heard from our Sapphira?

Talk to you soon,

Pinky love,

Lady Crown
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 04/08/08 10:15 PM

Dear Carolyn,

I'm so sorry for your turmoil, and glad at the same time that you found this board, We have all suffered to varying degrees at the hands of Psychopath's, and I still believe the worst damage they do is making you doubt and blame yourself. It is very significant that these Psychopath's continually blame, castigate and abuse you, and yet somehow they are still around. Don't you find that peculiar? People who are actually abused and injured clear out as soon as possible and stay as far away as they can. Yet the Psychopath's stick around because they want you to think their accusations are true and to feel as bad as possible, and they get everything out of that. It is a definite proof.

I think it might be too hard for you right now to "kick him out of your heart". Take it a step at a time; start with protecting your heart against the abuse by believing that you are a good person and a good mother. Nothing you could have done would have stopped this or formed it. And do as was suggested above; keep documentation, including the lies on the myspace page, don't let him know you have it, and as before, don't react. It just keeps them going and gives them the satisfaction of knowing they are hurting you. And that is their goal.

Most of us have started by just not engaging them, and moved onto the cold shoulder, and hopefully towards cutting all contact with them at all. It's a real process, but every little part of it will give you greater courage and knowledge that you are right. It's very easy for a Psychopath to undermine your confidence by their tactics of blame and frenzy, they seem to have an innate knowledge of the painful parts to hit. In the meantime, try to reduce the amount of contact. If he's 19, he doesn't need to you feed or house him, and you can always have a lot else to do that minimizes the times you are together. I'm sorry you feel isolated and friendless, that is very painful. Your best bet is to tell your friends, "we're having problems with my son, so I'll have to see you without him for a time". They will get that there is another point than his, and he won't get to pull them into his drama.

Do read some of the older posts about people's experiences and what they did and went through. All of us felt like we were alone and imagining things until we found the affirmation of this board. Just writing out what you are going through can be a huge relief and many people here have excellent advice. Plus the friendliness and comfort is absolutely invaluable!

Do write back and stay in touch. I hope you feel better and come back.

Hugs, Lady Crown
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 04/08/08 10:39 PM

Dear Pinky Ladies,

Hello again:) Thank you for all your kind thoughts. The silver thoughtcatcher grabbed them as they came by and, like sparkling treasures on a dream's web, they tugged gently and called me back. I haven't had a chance to read all the posts but wanted to say hello first of all, to let you know I'm ok and I hope you all are too!
Lots of love
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 04/08/08 11:40 PM

Oh, Sapphira, I was just about to sign off and thought I would check! I'm so happy you're back! Do let us know how you are and know we are all thinking about you! We can't have a lighter shade of pink, you know!

Love and hugs,
Lady Crown
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 04/09/08 01:45 AM

Hi Carolyn

There will always be a space in your heart for your son but I think it will become an empty space. Nothing else will fill it.

The no contact path is the best route to take and it will be a long journey but for your well being and for your other sons it the best way to go.
It's time to get your life back on track because while this son is in your life it will damage all your relationships and friendships.

I had to start the no contact with my partner's kid when he was living with us as he was too young to leave which was very difficult as I still had to cook and do the basics for him. My way was to cut off mentally and think of him as a robot that was programmed wrong. Because robots have no feelings all I had to do was make sure he didn't cause damage by keeping 10 steps ahead but there was no need to communicate with him. Communication has no function other than giving the robot information to work against you.

The relief when he decided he wanted to go back and live with his mother was unimaginable. This was the mother who kicked him out at 6 because she couldn't stand his behaviour any longer. He made out even at 6 that he was treated badly by her. Of course he did the same thing with my partner and no doubt is at it again. The kid's step-father phoned up 3 months after he went to live with them asking 'what the hell is wrong with this kid?'
The kid made out I was the wicked step-mother so many people around us didn't see the real picture and I was often told to lighten up that he was only a kid, that he just felt he had to compete with me for his father's attention.

I used to rage inside as this kid was taking ALL OUR time and attention and trying to destroy our relationship in the process. The plan was to get rid of me and then get his father back under his control.

That was a strange reaction when you angry and asked if he was crazy, I would think that was because he was being accused of being less than perfect not because he believed he might be. That would put him in a weak position....loss of control over his own actions????

I hope we can offer you all the support you need to move forward and get your life back.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/09/08 01:37 PM

hai Caroline,
I wanted to repley yesterday but didn't have enough time....sorry!

Luckely I have my ther son too..He is now 18 years of age and is doing so very well..
He knows more andmore his brother is evil. My oldest son says he has his own windowcleaning business and last summer my youngest son worked for him for two weeks... He isn't allowed to have contact with the oldest by his father and told at home he was working with a farmer. That way he could be loyal to his brother and not have a fight with his father...Ohh he is so sorry now for doing so.
he worked for a couple of weeks with his brother and didn't get his money. My oldest son knows this will give him a lot of trouble for the money he earns goes to a special account his father has opened for my youngest...This way he has control over this bankaccount.
So my son came to me to please help him and I did...Ofcourse I talked it over with him and pointed out were he did go wrong and why..he agrees... I also explained this had to happen sometime...Rather now with a copple of hundred euro then in say 10 years time and then it would have been thousants!!!
My oldest son is convinced I ow him a lot, so doesn't want to pay anything...My youngest got his money ( yeah, fromme!!)and he doesn't think I earned anything!!!So bye bye to the money I gave for solving this....

Now my youngest son is very angry at his brother for till now he didn't get in contact and even changed his phonenumber...........

What I noticed during the years that went by is that he ( the youngest)is an expert in coping with his brother... With it goes a lot of loyalty but it doesn't mean he is blind and he knows I found it very hard do handle all of it. Sometimes I did ask him how he would handle a situation.I see your point with what you say about it with your sons, but please leave the door open for them to discuss things concerning the brother for it is difficult for them also and no one understands..So the only persons you can discuss this are the persons in the family itself.
My oldest son is indeed always able to make himself populair with others...If the others were as smart as they say they are, they would look right through his mascarade but they don't . He can play sad and worried greatly so they al turned against me. It gave me a feeling of losing..Losing every thing and everybody..My credibillity was on the streets and they believed every word he is saying.
He is in and out of jail. And every time he is in court he tells his same old sad story over and over again and adds always that now he is on his way with his own business and is doing well finally. Able to pay his bills and if the judge would put him in jail then he will give up even to try for he is so very depressed by it..He has to overcome a very painfull, lonely and hard youth so please give me another change!!!
And no one asks me what of this is treu...And you have to know I have all that happend in writing, police reports, wittnesses in school, neighbours and all you can think of...But what use does it have if no one is interessted and just goes with what the son says?.....

I recongnize what you say about all the accidents. On a dutch site I read it is even edit to the list they use...Accidents over and over again and staying out for the nights...
Since last summer my son had have at least 8 cars and all ruined. he claimes to have so much on his head that he is not even noticing a round about..Yeah ... shure.... what about being high on drugs!!!!
he never worked with other people..Most of the time he is on his own. He spent a lot of time in jail but the time he was free he was in selling things door to door or claimed to have his own business.
From age 7 on up I called him a master psychologist for he knows exactly to find the soft spot in everybody around him.....unbelievable if you are not close enough to notice this in every move he makes.

The day I told him he has to leave the house he was shouting, yelling and so on..well we all know this don't we.... So when he finally was convinced I was very serious he demanded a note, written by me that I, his mother, send him away from home without him having another place to stay ( after telling him for days to look after himself and find a place to stay!!)..... And he thought he had me in his grip...Pitty for him; I wrote a note...(I still have it!!!) and he never expected I would...
I wrote what happend all those years and how he threatend to kill me over and over again.. That I was tired of him keeping control over everything all the time and beating, shouting, I edit a long long list of his misbehaviors and wrote that I finally was so fed up with it that I was kicking him out..I dated the thing, and put my signature on it....
He was so surprised at me doing it and put it in writing!! Untill he read what I had written.. Whaoooww he was maddd...... and never ever showed anybody the note.... He ofcourse was trying for me to confess that I kick out my own little sweet boy!!! ....mmmm( not such a good psychlogist after all!!)

I learne dover the years to let go...Not to lethim touch my life and being anymore...This is hard to do and doesn't come natural and is against everything a mothersheart want..... But it is necessary and it is oke now..... He is out of my live..I se him ones a year or one and a half year...When he comes he'll knows he has to behave in my house acording to my rules..if he is not, I kick him out again...Sometimes he is in for a 15 minutes before getting him out again..sometimes it is even a half hour but that's it....

I wish you well and hope you will bebetter soon. Better in feelig ncomfortable again with whoyou are and what you want to do!
Love segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/09/08 01:41 PM

Hee Sapphira!!!!
Oww Pinky girl I am so very glad to see your posting!!!!!
We all are so much thinking of you!!!!Yes it was meant to be that your thoughtcatcher would get it all...For every day and every evening you are in my heart and thoughts...You are completely all over!!!
And that is a good thing for I want to hold my friends close....
Love to hear how you are... How you are coping for we still want to share all that you will tell us.
Love Pinky hugs, Segaya
Posted by: Carolyn

Re: General Discussi - 04/09/08 08:06 PM

Hello everyone, once again thankyou for your words of encouragement. For years I have grappled with the grim fact that I intensely disliked my child due to his behaviour , it goes against everything I am as a mother and as for my other boys hardly a conversation passes between us without our telling each other how we love each other.

I would also have to put on a mask in public(as my son did). I had to play the game that I was happy at for instance his birthday party or social gatherings and would have to nod with a smile when people would say that I must be so proud of him. This is what society demanded of me as a parent and the real truth was that the only time I felt content was when he was not around and I was not subject to his abuse.

Now I feel an intense sadness, not that I have severed my ties with him as the person he is is not someone I would ever choose to spend a single moment with if he were not my child, its sadness of the loss of a family, what I had expected when I married. When I married we had trouble conceiving and were on fertility treatment. Eventually we had a beautiful baby boy and amazingly, I was soon pregnant with another , my now oldest Jason who I have mentioned before. My baby was unbeknown to me very ill though due to a genetic condition we were not aware of, and he died after a painful illness. It was so hard to watch your baby die . Jason was born and I was still yearning for this 'ideal' family, so in time I fell pregnant with my child in question (with some medical intervention).He was so very wanted. Unfortunately my marriage did not hold up to the stress of our loss and the changes it made to our psyche's and we separated.

I began a relationship with a man which quickly dissolved but blessfully gave me my youngest son. Since then I have been single and living my own private hell , that I have never until now been able to share with anyone who would understand me .I could never have imagined on my wedding day that my life would end up like this. Am I feeling sorry for myself? Yes I am, but I need a bit of time to be sad to fully grieve for the life I did not have.Only then will I be able to pick myself up and start again.
Posted by: Carolyn

Re: General Discussi - 04/09/08 09:43 PM

Its not the thought of severing ties and not seeing him again as like I said before I only have peace when he is not around but I cannot imagine I wont spend the rest of my life wondering where he is, is he hurting others or are his actions causing him to be physically injured? I guess in some way I will never be able to kick him out of my heart but by him maybe I mean not him as a person but the loss af a family that I so hoped for. I dont know, I am so confused by my emotions at present. He has I have been told left town to live somewhere else and went to visit a number of people before he left saying how I was trying to have him committed so he has to get away (so untrue), but he will be back when all resources there have been depleted. In the meantime I need to feel my sadness so I can then find the strength to turn him away when he returns telling me he is so sorry as he has in the past many times before.

When my youngest was three months old I put myself through university,It took seven years and I was then able to buy us a home determined my children would not rely on welfare, I now work with the disabled as well as lecture part time at university. In all other aspects of my life I seem to be strong but it has all been a facade, underneath was a downtrodden at times broken woman who put on her mask just as her son did to play this charade. What a fool I have been !
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 04/10/08 04:18 AM

Dear friends,

I'm ok and coming back slowly. I've been coping - mostly by pushing it all away:) Such an overload. It made me realise just how reclusive and away from people I have been. Segaya, you were right about fearing being close. Being close was so good and also so scary. But the thing that really triggered it all off was the terrible dream I had that involved my son. It wasn't about him per se but the dream was such a clear and brutal confrontation with pure psychopathy that it sent me into a tail spin. I just felt I had nowhere to hide from it because it has got so far inside me, into my dreams which jump out at me like that. I know it in this way, I can't deny this terrible knowing. I remember Lady Crown saying that it was part of surviving. And I know it's true, and having to face this was hard. It reached so far in, suddenly I couldn't cope with it any more. That was it. That dream totally threw me back into the trauma space. Suddenly everything was travelling way too fast. I just need everything slowed right down now. I completely ran aground. After 43 years of not having a name for the chaos, in one small sentence from the psychologist, that all changed. It's only been four months and it's like totally reviewing my life with a measuring stick to evaluate it all by. So everything rushed to the surface to be reappraised and integrated. I found this site and you wonderful people and many things changed extremely quickly. Then that dream blew the full force right back in my face, just to remind me! But I'm doing ok. I just need time to mentally adjust to what is. It all makes sense and emotionally I have been able to cope but on the mental level - well, my brain is concrete, I'm sure, and it's taking a lot to make the adjustments. But I will get there. I feel positive and determind and I know that it's just a matter of keeping on, one foot in front of the other. And I am lucky to have your examples and support and caring. It means everything and makes ALL the difference!
Love to you and so many thanks for being there,
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/10/08 09:17 AM

Hi Carolyn

You will always wonder where your son is and what he is doing, that is normal maternal instinct and whatever your son has put you through you will always be a mother.
My partner wonders about his son and feels guilty that he may cause suffering to innocent people he comes into contact with. We know there is nothing we can do to prevent anything he does and just have to hope that others realise before they get sucked in by him.

Your son will be back and you will know he is still alive and kicking but I do hope the strength you clearly have doesnít desert you when you will need it mostÖwhen he says sorry and that he has changed. Thatís exactly what we desperately want to believe and itís so easy for the normal emotion of forgiveness to take over.

As a said before my partner is going through the Ďgrieving processí of losing a child. He had hopes and dreams of bringing up a son to be a valuable member of society and to have a Ďmateí to spend time with sharing hobbies and interests and that has all gone. That kid Ďdiedí. The kid he got is a law unto himself and doesnít want a father, he just wanted a host/victim to suck dry. Unfortunately my partner hasnít got any other children so has no further role as a father and parent and feels a huge sense of loss. At first he felt a failure but now accepts it was out of his hands to make the kid different. As you say itís not losing the kid you have, itís losing the kid you wanted and expected him to be.

Itís natural to feel sadness and I have been known to wallow in it before deciding that I have had enough and ready to move away from it. I would be very surprised if you could have gone through all this and just be able to shrug your shoulders and think ďwell thatís over then, heís gone!Ē

We have all put on the mask so others donít probe us too deeply but also because we donít want them to feel we are needy.

I think your life has been far from a sham and itís understandable that you wanted to deflect attention away form yourself and your family. What an achievement to get through University with children and a baby to look after and you are now making a valuable contribution to society.

I hope you get the support you need to get back to the person you are. It really helps to know you are not alone.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/10/08 03:39 PM

Hai Sapphira,

I am so glad you are doing better.
It's so clear ...4 months only..I think we didn't realize that fact deep enough... I have to say sorry for that cause I should have known..But I got in the flow and forget about the time difference between my realizing and yours that we have to cope with psychopathy and see everything in a different perspective now....One side of it is the huge relieve it gaves to have this insight but the other side of it is logically the devistation (???)that comes with it. It puts the whole world up side down and in side out.... Everything seems to change by knowing, and then there is the realizing that we... the person who has the experience isn't different at all...And what to do with this knowledge and how to put it in to practice and put things in the right place...And there is so much to think of, so much to deal with, so much to grieve over and so much to is overwelming indeed.

I am so glad you are looking after yourself and that involves taking your own time... your own tempo in things that happen... There is always the way back to us for we do understand now!
And though not on the board, we are there anyways!!!!
I mean it when saying you are always on my mind... Lady Crown also annd Jan and Dianna also.. there is this not visible line between us that is strong and will be there even when we don't feel it so well some times....
last week I had a difficult time also and I felt not alone..... And as said before..I never felt alone but that wasn't in a material way..Not human as you know what I mean..Now it was like I could touch you pinky girls and it filt me with strenght and I felt so very proud...
The strenght of the pinky girlgroup was almost visible for me at that moment..I straitend my back and look the person who 'attackted' me in the eye and made a remark that this person will not easy forget..and the nicest thing??? I have no tact what so ever...And now, this time I made it clear without even reasing my voice!!wonderfulllllll....

I have to keep this writing short..( hihihihi) for I just was with the acupuncturist(??????) and he wants me to do nothing!!!
So next time I will write more... this is it for now....
Pinky love an hugs Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/10/08 04:14 PM

Hi Sapphira

Good to see you back.

I hope you know we are all still here waiting for you and when the time is right you can tell us how you are.

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 04/11/08 09:58 PM

Dear Segaya and Jan,

I don't have a lot of energy but wanted to respond to you both, so will do so together.

First I have to say "Congratulations" Segaya! I am very glad for you, that you have lost some of your tact!! Tact, schmact - I'm sure many of us have too much of it. It's great when we can just shoot from the hip, eh?

Second: I was having a brief look over some of the posts and found the lovely Athene doll. She's just gorgeous - thank you!!! It really gave me such a lift when I saw her. It so did. And you know what? I have a miniature bronze owl exactly like the one in the photo! That Segaya!! - I thought to myself - she knows:)

And thank you for understanding. You are right - so much to adjust to. And the biggest thing is, as you said, the realisation that actually I wasn't the 'different' one. My whole vision of myself is altered and although I feel lighter without all the 'wrapping', this lighterness in myself, of my identity, is a lot to integrate - but I'll get used to it:)

You both asked how I'm doing. Mostly now I'm really just numb. Numb, numb and more numb. Time feels rather warped and a week feels like a month. Looking back I could never have expected that in seeing my mother for what she is the doors on my grandfather would suddenly swing wide open - and oh so wide! My mother and my grandfather's abuse were two separate things in my mind, carefully and solidly walled off from each other. But the sudden realisation of the common ground between them shattered the sense of control I had in keeping things tidy and contained and separate. That totally blew the fish out of the water.

Then it struck me the other day, actually I've known two psychopaths. I was processing two Psychopath's at a time. Another adjustment. Then it suddenly occurred to me, on a level, how close I had come to.... Another adjustment. But it was from an outside. I don't have to ever go back in there again - at least not that far. Finally I have the treasure from that dark space - understanding of just (who) what I was facing. Now my focus is pulled right back. I'm working hard to keep functioning for my son. I'm not quite as tired, but I quickly run out of energy. Vitamins, sleep, basics. This will take time, but the great thing is that things are finally moving for me and my life, finally clicking into place.

Thank you both for you thoughts and care.
Lots of love to you both and Lady Crown and Dianne also.

Need to sign off now - running out of steam.
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 04/12/08 06:17 PM

Dear Pinky Ladies,

After posting yesterday I feel things opening up again and today I realiused something - it was my mother's birthday a week ago, and although I know three other people who all have their birthday on the same day, and had wished them happy birthday, I completely and utterly forgot about her. This is quite extroadrinary and has only struck me today! I'm very glad that my life is so 'of itself' that I don't even register her in this way, and I'm also sad because it isn't my natural personality to ignore someone's important day in this way. Notice I'm not saying how sad I am not to have a mother - I haven't got to that yet. I'm certainly not sad that I don't have to be around her disturbing energy. I'm just sad at the changes I notice in myself. Obviously these experiences won't allow us to remain so innocent and trusting, if we are to survive. I just find it hard that to do so I have to go against what is natural. I think this is what Lady Crown was talking about. It feels as though the very qualities that make me human have to be curtailed and modified, and that to survive, in a way, I have had to become a bit like her. This is upsetting to me. When I lived with her, any show of weakness was used against me, so I become very sealed off. I controlled my emotions totally because I had to. Now to express any vulnerability is extremely difficult.

Also, being forced to be so independant I find it also very difficult to rest on anyone else. At times of stress, instead of asking for help, I turn more away from it, and this has lead to heart problems. When things got so bad a year or so ago it was my inability to get support that nearly killed me. Literally on my near-death bed, I realised I would be abandoning my son if I carried on this way. I needed to get some help, at least to understand my severe avoidance and social phobias, which I could see underlay my inability to trust anyone and accept help when I really needed it. So, finally, late last year, I went to see a psychologist and came out with the insight that my mother is a psychopath.

I find it hard now to see any of the world as it was, or to react with the trust and openess that I once did. Actually that sounds a total contradiction to what I was just saying - but in a certain way, yes there was trust. It just seems I'm losing part of myself, along with the losing of my mother, my family and that. Losing some of the good, human, warm qualities. Not that this has suddenly happened. But since understanding this and looking back somewhat I'm so much less open with people now. Losing some of my tact, also:) A good thing, because despite all these experiences, I was too open in certain ways and so not open enough in others. Not innocent, but naieve in a way. But that is changing. I guess, this is where self forgiveness comes in. Extreme situations call for extreme measures. I could see this in others, but it's harder with me.

My exhusband has a child with a psychopath. When we got together he was in constant battle in court. He eventually broke down, emotionally and financially. He had all the court orders possible, apart from custody, but to no avail. It was very painful to watch the terrible injustice, and damage to that child and to my exhusband. In the end, instead of encouraging him to keep fighting, I encouraged him to let go. He had seen me let go of my mother and he finally did in his life and I do believe this was the right thing but I also secretly felt ashamed of how 'hard' I had been and often questioned whether I should have taken another tack. I was pregnant and I guess not in the mood for pussy-footing about. But it wasn't my child I was walking away from. It was so incredibly painful for him, but he did it. Despite many who admonished him, said that a good father will keep on fighting, and what's wrong with him that he's giving up? But I could see how important it was for him to forgive himself and accept his own limitations. It's incredibly hard doing what has to be done. I'm seeing now that the reason this woman didn't suck me in as she was so used to, was that she was nothing new to me, and she had no pull with me, but it was all new for him and a huge adjustment. It's not easy being a survivor. And this is what I'm seeing. In these situations there's no room for grey areas. It's sink or swim. I need to work at forgiving myself for being the one to 'get it' and get out when others didn't or couldn't, and I have to come to terms with the bits of myself that were cut off to do so, or that were lost to change. I think this is what Lady Crown was saying to me -it's a part of life - like the rose: it only grows and flowers properly if it has an occassional hard pruning....I'm working on this.


Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/12/08 07:08 PM

Dear Sapphira,
So glad to hear again from you.But... your writing gave me some questionmarks.......
You are telling the fact you forgot about your mothers birthday is making you feel sad.
You add that to do this you have to modify yourself in more of a person like she is........???
Is this true??? Really true...or is there an other possibillity.....
something else that is happening?

What about learning.... What about growing.... what about looking after yourself...what about choosing an other way to deal with circumstances, What about not any longer allowing trauma's and bad experiences leading your life?

I think I see those things in a totally different perseptive.

Somewhere on this forum I told that I went to see my mother.I was about 23 or 24 years of age at that time, Since me leaving home ( at just 16 years of age) I went to see her every so many years...never longer than minutes... 20 minutes at the most. Everytime I was hoping she would show me some feelings, emotions. I wanted her to tell me she misses me..I want her to say she was glad to have me as a daughter......... You know so well what I want and what i was wishing for, don't you...
After the usual 15 minutes I left; ashamed, in pain, very deeply sad, lonely in my soul.... And so afraid of the pain I put myself in again.. I thought this feeling would last for months again....

Much to my suprise it didn't last for months..Yeah..true I was crying for about one and a half to two months indeed... But when looking at the reason for all those tears i discovered it was still the fear of what would come.... And i found that it wasn't there at all!!!
I didn't feel that same old familar pain anymore...I didn't feel lonely and abandoned at all.. My soul was quit oke!
So I got shocked by the lack of those feelings and wondered , like you say; Am I becoming more like my mother..just as cold hearted as she is? And I was so very afraid of that. Looking at my son ( My oldest son, the youngest wasn't born yet) I was desparaid afraid to let him be around such a person like the one I was apperently becoming. I wished him a nice loving, protected and care-full youth and not the things that happend to me because of 'her'...... So now what?
I was running around in circles..not only mentally and emotionally, but indeed fysically also... Didn't know any solution , there was no way out in my opinion....
AFter a while with those feelings I came back home after bringing my son to school. And I was crying again..still..pppfff And then it became clearer, and I started to think...Am I really like that or is something else going on??.....
That was the turning point for me. I started to look at it in a different way... On a level for which I had no words at the time..Now I have....
I will try to explain, maybe it can be of some use to you....

The way I see it is that we are in this live to learn...learn and learn more,
We choose people in our lives who will help us learn our lessons. And we also choose circumstances...( the first time I heard about this, I was soooo in the world would I have choosen vulantairaly for a live like mine!!!!)
When our lessons are learned we go on to the next lesson....
Now looking at it this way it could mean;
You have learned the lesson from your mother that you needed to learn. She goes on go on living, both in a separated space..She will give others who need it they're lessons and will keep on doing so... And you are ready for the next level in your live. To do so it is needed to let go of the old lesson ...And you did..... You are free now to make a different choice.
You made room for the new things to enter your live. And because you seem to recognize something it feels like simmilar to what your mother is doing. But look again. I don't believe this is what is happening. You are not a cold hearted person..The only thing is that you are getting it what it means to look after yourself. YOU are the most importend person in your live. Not your son, or your neighbour or a boss and so on> YOU.... And to make the choice for YOU means to let go of something/body who occupied that space.
You are not hurting anybody by doing so..on the are rewarding yourself..That is a different point of view isn't it...
You don't wish bad things to happen to her, so you let go in respect, knowing she has her own path to walk and you are only making room for her too....
So let her be happy in her own way... Rich, a nice relation and so on...And go your own way... You are ment to do so aren't you.....
So, no I really don't think you are becoming more like her or others, I think you are becoming more of you...And you are the nice person you were before, loving, warm, caring doing whatever you can to make live nice for your son, even if that means hard work for you in all thinkable ways.

I do think you are doing what lives planned for you.....And that is to heal, recover, and who knows what the next step on a next level will be.. There is room to grow now isn't there!!!!
Pinky Love Segaya....
( it is passed three a clock at night time for bed!!! But I will come back to you soon.....And in the mean time I hope this can be of help in coping with this..and give you a new perseptive.)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/13/08 10:23 AM

Hi Sapphira

I read your post this morning and have been thinking about it for 7 hours now and I do see and feel your dilemma. Iím always amazed at the clarity of how you see things. You put forward a very objective and rational viewpoint. You want to have the responses of the kind, caring person you are towards others with your mother but I canít see how that is possible. That is not something you should take any blame for, she had free will to make choices and now she is getting the consideration she earned.
Those qualities you have are still there but saved for the right people. It must be like learning about relationships all over again and how normal emotions fit in.

I donít see anything you have to forgive yourself for, certainly not for Ďgetting ití and Ďgetting outí, what would be the point of perpetuating that worthless situation? It takes strength and courage to do what you did and I suppose because you did it on your own you have no-one to say ďgood for you gal-well done!Ē to validate it. The fact you survived your ordeal has made you incredibly strong but I get the feeling you havenít realised just how strong you are.

I would like to repeat what Segaya said about you being the most important person in your life, your son is lucky to have you as his mother and itís like they say in the aeroplane safety briefing Ďput on your own oxygen mask before you try to help othersí if something goes wrong.

What I do find very warming is that you are not a bitter person, I canít begin to imagine how your life was and I would fully expect anyone who has come through that to be bitter, vindictive and unable to form any sort of relationships. How do you learn who you can trust and who you canít? I also donít sense any anger in you, maybe if you were an angry person other people would have to suffer what your mother should expect to receive. You have so many admirable qualities. Please donít let any repressed/unacknowledged anger be turned on yourself.

What I do hope you know is that the people on this forum can be trusted and do not want anything from you but want to give their total support, they want to give to you. Maybe you are not used to being given to as your life has all been about taking from you.

Your ex did what was right for him in the circumstances and Iím sure nothing you did or said would have changed that. My partner too, had to cut all communication with his ex as she was blighting his life but unfortunately his kid turned out the same. Now the kid has gone back to his mother (after living with him for 8 years) my partner has cut off all communication with both of them and this is causing him a similar problem to you. He is a kind, caring person and canít understand how he can do this and his kid is a monster. He wonders if he really is a good person because he was able to do it. I see he had no real choice and can only hope he will eventually see it too. The psychologist told him that the kid would destroy 3 lives if he stayed with us but will destroy 2 less if he went back to his mother.

I wish there was something I could do to help you get through this time apart from just being here listening. Lady Crown has a great understanding and she is so much like you, staying true to herself and her integrity. Itís great that she can share her thoughts with you.

You wouldnít believe itÖ.a song called ďPretty in PinkĒ is being played on the radio as I type. Spooky or what? Segaya may know that song!

I hope you like Lady Crown, can also see your army of Ďsistersí when you look over your shoulder. Like real sisters we will often be quiet and wait for you to want or need us and are very happy when we do get together. There is no time frame on true relationships.

Best regards
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 04/13/08 02:54 PM

Dear Segaya,

It is such a huge comfort to me to hear of your experiences - always. You remind me
that this path is already trodden and that I am not alone, just in line, and that what feels like the edge of a flat earth is simply a new horizon - and to keep walking. You always bring perspective. And I am very grateful.

I lay awake last night thinking over what you say about the lesson. I understand what you mean and I often used to say to myself, this is for a reason - if it doesnt kill me it will make me stronger. I don't know what that lesson is yet, but I do believe it will come. Something must come of all of this. These are the thoughts that have kept me going over the years.

First there was getting away. Then the last 15 years or so have really been about getting out of self sabotaging patterns, creating some stability for myself, learning about some basics within myself. But all along the door on just what exactly was the root of it all remained firmly shut, simply because I didn't have an explanation. Now, in one word, I have all the explanation I need. When the psychologist gave me books to read I could feel it to the bottom of my feet. Then all the doors starting pinging open and then overload. So I stepped back some and suddenly felt I really didn't want it to be true - despite all the questions it answered and 'things' it put into place. I'm really not sure why this is, but it was how I was feeling. There were a couple of things involving my mother that really began to bug me - actually they made me quite furious - and I wasn't sure what to do. On the immediate level I knew doing nothing, refusing to engage, was the practical answer, but within myself I wasn't sure what to do, in the bigger picture. So I was thinking about it last night, putting faith in the process of learning this lesson, and I saw that my biggest fear was that I wouldn't find the vehicle, the outlet, the way forward that I could pour my energies and feelings about this into. But if Life decided I was to get out, I'm sure the plan doesn't stop there. So I can wait and trust....


So that was last night. And this morning I got up, with a wee sense of almost excitement. There's nothing to be ashamed of. It was Life's plan, God's will, however one might like to see it. There is need for neither pride nor shame about this. It just is. Probably more importantly is, what am I going to construct positively out of this? This is my transition. And while I still think, yes, trust, I'm not quite so sure about the wait bit. I see I need to find my way. I will look for this because it is the way forward, the road to the next lot of lessons. Here I am now, back to reality, to the real support and understanding here and to being a part of a group of people who truly are part of my real world. Ahhh! And here is where my next lot of learning has begun and will continue from. I'm on my feet, but I need now, as you said, to draw strength and support from those who know and care and understand, and stand straight and tall! Thank you Segaya....I feel very happy this morning!

Lots of love,
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 04/13/08 09:38 PM

Hi Jan,

Thank you - your post has had me thinking also:) Actually after posting I had realised that my challenge is to learn to be open with those you deserve my care and also, to become open to the care from others. It is very hard sometimes because it's as though I don't have the tools to reference or assess with. Living with a blanket "don't trust anyone" is comparatively easy, in that sense. But there are so many shades of grey in relationships and in people. For me there was either a wall, or nothing.

And I think this is why leaving home was so catastrophic, in quite a different way from the nightmare there. I'd had no real free will. I didn't know how to make decisions or assess a person or a situation. What do I measure such and such by to know whether it is trustworthy or not? I was very good at knowing what was expected of me and conforming to this, but when left to guide myself? Nothing. It was a facility that was so foreign. I had no idea and only a history of having been controlled and taken advantage of, and no sense of my self, so without her directives I collapsed into a massive depression. On one hand because I didn;t know how to do for myself. On the other, because I was wide open to expolitation and didn't know how to avoid this, apart from eventually becoming reclusive. All someone had to do was say something in a authoritative voice and I'd do it. And I really mean that. I can hardly bare to remember some of the things I have done that were so degrading and humiliating. But that's the way it was.

You mentioned emotions. I didnt really have emotions other than sadness, which she never saw, and anger, which wasn't allowed out. My mother controlled this, often by controlling my movements. If I was angry for example, she would have me "Stand still!". Then "drop your arms!" Then she'd have me unclench my fists and teeth, relax my shoulders, breathe slowly, turn slowly and leave the room, then call me back in again to ensure I was still like that, then send me out again. Tears? There were none of those. She wanted smiles. Smiles and underneath to know I was in pain. So it was a long process of learning to express emotion - particularly anger. And there was just so much of that! But if I took one step towards expressing it, it would vapourise. I had to be very patient with myself and start in a very basic way. All the while I knew that I had considerable 'deposits' of it, so to speak:)

I'd had no role model for emotion, except my mother's vicious rages and a kind of euphoric almost manic gleefulness at certain times - particulalry of she'd had a go at me. Apart from that there was nothing. She was so empty. No inward life. She was referred for counselling because of problems she was creating/having at work with her coworkers and she totally hated it! Boy it annoyed her. This was the only time I ever saw her getting bugged by anything, except when she blew up about me. Normally she was very cool and calm. And she never allowed me to get close to anyone else, I was very isolated. That said, the only people who did get near me were the (mostly) men who abused me. Again, walls around me when it suited her, then complete absence of any protection.

Really I learned about emotion from the ouside in. I was in an American library in South America when a psychology book literally fell off the shelf beside me. I will never forget picking it up and wondering just what that was all about. The inner world had made it's presence known! But I was petrified of looking inward because it was so foreign. Of course now I understand why, given her condition. But my greatest fear was to end up like her and so I explained to myself logically, once I had learned intellectually, that I had to take myself inside. I got to the point where I saw that the only person I had any real power over is myself. I could not change her - that was nothing new. So it was a relief to know that I could (only) change me. And if I didn't get out from the programming, then I could very well end up doing some things I would very regret. I realised it was up to me, that no matter how things were for me, how I chose to react would rest on my shoulders. Plus, I knew darn well, that nothing would have given her more pleasure than to either see me go mad, or kill myself. At six I first contemplated taking my life and eventually realised that this is what she wanted and it wouldn't make any difference, so that was that. The other, not going mad, was considerably harder not to do. I figured the biggest revenge I could take on my mother was to get myself back and succeed in my life on my own terms - to take my power back and to thrive without her. So when you say about not being bitter, I'd probably say I just get very determind!

Jan, there is a lot more in your post that I want to respond to but I have only got a short time and need to fly. But I will continue this evening.

Hi again! I have been thinking about what you said about knowing my sisters are with me. There are layers for me with this. On certain levels this is easy to accept. On others, which I am sure you will understand, it will take more time. And perhaps even more than time, is the learning within myself to know how to trust myself with other people. What I do have already is a sense that I am in the right place - for sure. This will hold me steady through the inevitable ups and downs that being so close will likely trigger.

And also, I do know what you mean about reading what someone has written and wanting to respond but not quite knowing what to say. There is much feeling and yet the words clog up. (It makes me wonder whether you are a writer...?)And you really do ask some great questions!:) These touch. These lead forward and show your concern. And when silence prevails, well, if one can hear, silence can say a great deal. Please don't feel that words are required. As you said, the connection is there. I do feel that.

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 04/15/08 12:37 PM

Dear Segaya and Lady Crown,

Just wanted to post an hello - to say that I am thinking of you both, wondering how you are, hoping you are well and fine.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/15/08 05:10 PM

My dear friend Sapphira,

Though I read all your postings, I am a bit ill at the moment so that's why it takes me a bit more time to reponed.
As you know I have a severe heartcondition and for the third time in one and a half month I have a faringitis. I am not allowed to have any fever or infection for that worsens the heartdiseas. I sleep a lot and when not sleping I am just hanging around. watching some television and try to keep eating. So hard work there for me.. whawha I know sounds bad.... But oke, I am getting better now. So, I will be more on the forum again, Promise!!!!
For now I will say to respond tomorrow on a better time for me..( It's after 1 o clock at night again...) I have to learn to go to bed earlier for 'they' say that will be better...
I hope you know I do admire your strenght and the way you figure things out all by your self..You are so very creative....And again; The way you are with words...I have to ask... Do you write poetry???
Love and hugs and talk to you real soon!!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/16/08 01:17 AM

Hi Segaya

Sorry to hear you are ill. I just want to send my best wishes for a quick recovery. Do try to get plenty of sleep to give your body chance to repair itself.

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 04/16/08 01:44 AM

Dear Segaya,

So nice to hear you! I'm sorry you are unwell and am glad that you are getting better. It's hard to teach an old night owl new tricks but already the doctor ought to be proud of you - only 1am - that's two hours to bed earlier than last time you posted:) I do hope there's something good on tv to keep you entertained and lots of (pinky) treats in the cupboard. Am thinking of you, of course, and wishing you lots and lots of sweet dreams...

PS: Thank you for your kind comments. No, I don't write poetry - but it's nice of you to think I might:)
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 04/22/08 07:56 AM

Hi, everyone!

I'm short on time but I just wanted to say hi and give you all an update. I've had the most insane week! (No pun intended!) On Wednesday, at 10 am the gas stove shortcircuited. At noon someone drove into me and my car in the gas station. The bank was closed. The bath flooded over at 11 pm. And I'd had a migraine since 7:30 in the morning. This was all one day! On Saturday we lost the car in the parking lot for 45 minutes due to the store having 5 exits. More terror I didn't need.

I just checked the board, and Segaya, I'm sorry you aren't feeling well. Please take care of yourself. Sapphira, I was so happy to see you were doing better, and it was great to read you were feeling happy!

I'm sending an image for all of our Pinky girls. I will write more later when I have time. Off to the doctor, again!

Pinky love, Lady Crown
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/22/08 02:14 PM

Hi everybody,
Here I am for a short while.....
First of all a warm welcome to all new writers. We all know what you have to deal with in your lives and all wish you well.
Sapphira I read all you wrote and it filled me with so much pride...being ill gave me a lot of time to think about all you told the past week. Again there was so much recognision...It is still amazing me..although maybe we should get used to it in some doesn't get normal that somebody so far away was/ is living the same lives.

lady Crown... I just read your listing of every thing that happend in one day...How is that possible. Wauw.... And the fact you have to look for your car for so very long, It must have exhausted you, I immagine!!!
I hope things are much better now!!!!

I am getting better bit by bit but it takes me longer than I was expecting. I got ill for the third time in a month and didn't want to take anti biotics anymore. I now am going to a acupucturist and it seems to help a lot. Because of the heart condition ( and more) I am coughing for over 20 years already. Last week I woke up and didn't have to cough at all..This is so very new to me.. So maybe there will be a time where there is no coughing at all anymore...???
Thanks for the doll I love it!!!
Untill next time.. Love and pinky hugs for all...Segaya

( Ooo I have to tell..I am wearing my Jan
and Di's now and just washed my Sapphira and Lady indeed I am close to you all....)
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 04/24/08 05:15 AM

Dear Segaya and Lady Crown,

It was great to hear from you both. I have so been missing you both, wondering how you are doing, and just so happy to see you again. I'm just in and about to go to bed and checked and found you here. I need to sleep but will post again in the morning. But will sleep happy having heard from you again.
Love Sapphira
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/24/08 11:41 AM

Hello everyone

I have been reading all the posts recently but Iím not on top form at the moment. I had a bit of a health scare last weekend and all due to stress. It was a bit of a light bulb moment!
I have learned a valuable lesson and hope I can pass on some of what I have learned. Itís now time to get rid of any stress that I canít do anything about, Iím not sure how I will deal with each issue as it arises but Iím determined that I will as Iím not going to allow anything to give me any more problems in my life. If itís not good for me then itís out of my life. I think we all deserve to put ourselves first for a change otherwise we are not going to be strong enough to be supportive of others.

I know everyone here is so supportive and I hope we can carry on like that and support each other while we all try to get rid of the problems that are holding us back.

I look forward to hearing how everyone moves forward, each achievement should be celebrated.

Thinking of you all.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/28/08 04:02 PM

Hai all,
Just want to say I am on my way back... Thinking of you all the time but I am very, very tired so please be patient.... Love in pink for all, Segaya
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 04/28/08 06:23 PM

Hello dear everyone. I wonder what is happening. I had severe chest pain the other night and went into A and E department in the early morning. Am fine but have to have tests done. Things were all great. A massive shift forward and so much to get done and sort out. Maybe too much at one go, but I got there. Now have lost my voice, so I think life is saying something. Just want you all to know that I too have been thinking of you and am a bit shocked that we are all going through so much health stuff at the moment. Segaya, Jan, and even you Lady Crown have had your fair share of stress also. But it seems we are all taking it easy for ourselves. Will tal again soon. Love and thoughts all,
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/29/08 10:48 AM

Hello Sapphira

Iím sorry to hear you have been illÖ.what a coincidence!!! I was rushed into the cardiac unit last Friday (18th April) I had severe chest pain and was kept under observation for a couple of days but the tests were negative for heart attack and angina. I was told the most likely cause is stress which sounds spot on to me.
I have an appointment with a cardiologist in May to do further tests but I have been told to consider Tako Tsubo Syndrome as they found Ischemic Inversion/T Wave Inversion, have a look at this link

I hope you are not overdoing things. I had a bit of a Ďtalking toí because I went back to playing squash and swimming a few days after I got out of hospital, it was pointed out to me that I was testing my body out rather than listening to it. I think that was very true as I wanted to see if I could still do these things. Maybe itís your body telling you to pamper yourself and try to avoid stress. Please look after yourself Ėthatís what I was told so now Iím passing that on to you. I think we should have an agreement on that!

I look forward to hearing from you as I get the sense and I donít know why that you have made some progress and Iíd love to hear that is true.

Posted by: Novam

Re: General Discussi - 04/29/08 03:39 PM

Oh Jan how terrible!! I hope you are recovering now? Squash after such a scare does sound like a little too much, but I am sure you know what you are doing! lol.

And yes, I'm back, and it's been too long!

Nova :o)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/29/08 04:39 PM

Hi Novam

It's good to hear from you after all this time, how are you doing now? We must catch up with what has been going on.

Your 'little' girl must be leaving school soon, I hope she has been able to get over the problem she had.

I'm really looking forward to hearing more from you .

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/29/08 05:17 PM

Hello Novam,
I understand you were here before. I am Segaya and I am a member since just before christmas. I am reading all the time but not writing very much at the moment because of recovering from being ill. Glad to meet you and hope to read more from you in the time to come...
regards Segaya :o)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/29/08 05:47 PM

I called my cardioloist just last thurstday.My next appointment was somewhere around the 15th of june... I had chest pain last week for the first time in years and just wanted him to know that. Now my appointment is scaduled for the 13th of may......
Is there something in the air??????
I really wonder what is happening.... And why now three of us have this.....mmmm
Love and very pinky hugs, Segaya

Sapphira may I ask when you had your chestpain...mine was on wednesday and the day before......
Posted by: Novam

Re: General Discussi - 04/30/08 01:32 AM

Hello Segaya, I hope you feel better soon!! It's good to meet you too, I shall have to spend some time catching up on posts!

Jan, hello :o) She is doing really well. I am hoping she won't grow up with the emotional damage I have suffered as I know that will go a long way to protecting her from the life I have endured. Hopefully the therapy put in place for her will serve her well and restore and repair her emotional 'boundaries'. She is very much her own person now, able to say no and mean it, and while she is independent, she is able to ask for help when she needs it.

As for me, I still have the odd day of complete fogginess, but for the most part I have turned a corner. While I haven't yet gone down the therapy road, I know I will do, but for now I am doing a lot of inward-looking and finding out some interesting things about myself that are making me feel good about myself. I've had so many years of being made to feel bad about myself that the doors to the *good* me were welded shut! What I am finding out about me has given me a new strength to move forward and finally get on with my life, not live the life someone else is imposing on me.

Sapphira, I hope you feel better soon too!

Nova :o)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/30/08 07:00 AM

Hello Segaya

My appointment with the cardiologist is 15 it a coincidence??? I'm really beginning to wonder. I hope Lady Crown doesn't have any problems like this.

I think all the stress we have been enduring has to go somewhere so maybe that is what has happened to us, it could be we are starting to let go of it.

Maybe we should be the 'pinky heart' group \:\)

I hope you feel better soon.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/30/08 07:37 AM

Hello Novam

I'm pleased to hear your daughter is doing well. It sounds as though her confidence has grown as she is now able to say what she wants. I hope she is not given any pressure by the family when she visits them, either to tell them what goes on at home or to feed back certain information to you. As long as she is her own person then she may be able to avoid this happening.
Sometimes therapy is a good way of getting felings into words, at first things seem to be a jumble when you talk about them but once the words are said you can sort them out afterwards. You are a very bright person so can probably deal with this with the support of your friends and family too.

As you know I have had a bit of a health scare but feel fine now. It has made me re-evaluate my life somewhat as I was told was due to stress. I am now going to get rid of anything in my life that is giving me stress I can't deal with and also be more aware of myself and my needs. I think that is what we are all starting to do, put ourselves first for a change. If we are not well and healthy we can't look after anyone else and be their support.

I look forward to hearing about what you have been doing in your absence and finding out how you are moving forward.

I'm so pleased that you have returned to the forum as we always like to know how people are.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 04/30/08 07:42 AM

Hell Segaya

I have just corrected my post about the date I was taken into hospital, it was Friday 18th not 22nd April. I too was wondering about Sapphira and the date she was il.... so let us know Sapphira.

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 05/01/08 04:37 AM

Hello everyone,

Ha! It is really something. So many thoughts about this curiosity of coincidence. There is one thing I have to say - we have had such experiences from 'heartless' people and here we all are, probably suffering from 'too much' heart, if you know what I mean.

I went in the night after I'd sent that posting, whatever day that was when I went to bed and was intending to post again in the morning. The days are all a blur at the moment.

I do hope you are all feeling somewhat better. I am still very weak and tired and I have developed a chest infection which certainly doesn't help. But inwardly I feel just great. Really things have taken such a turn - excuse the pun - for the better actually, despite the turmoil physically. You know I actually feel almost like another person - a new person. The only analogy I can think of for what has happened is (excuse me but I have a thing for cars, but only because they are so useful when trying to explain something)that I've finally taken the handbrake off my life.

I can't even say exactly when it happened - maybe a month ago, but it's been amazing. Hearing that my mother is a psychopath tossed everything totally up into the air, of course to land in the right place where they should have been all along. And then to make the connection about my grandfather. My life finally made sense. Then there was the period of being total overwhelmed and the exhaustion as it all came crashing onto me. Then the sense of acceptance of what was. And with that the realisation on a deep level that my life does make sense. It wasn't me. I am entitled to have my own life. But even more than that, I think, was a sense that I no longer needed to hold myself back and apart from life. The war is over. The danger, comparatively, is over, because I know my enemy now. And it's not me. There has been a purpose to all of this. I've come out the other side. I have enough of myself in tact to create going forward. And with all of this has come a tremendous feeling of updating. On a mental level I finally pushed the stick into gear and took my foot off the brake. Thing is the entire vehicle leapt forward with such a jump, and took off at such a speed, there was no way I could have slowed it down , even if I'd wanted to. And this was what pushed my heart to near breaking. After waiting so long to feel my inner desire to live and BE actually propelling me forward - being able to allow this - there was no way I was going to try to stopot . I no longer need to hold myself back or apart from my life to survive. And if it killed me, well at least I would have gone with a real big smile on my soul. So that's what's been going on. Massive progress. Outing the old outworn, not up to standard, need to have better or more for my self care etc. At times I feel a bit disorientated. Who is this person, and I found it hard to know how to approach people because I feel so different. But I understand it in overview and can just keep at it...And I can just be me. I'm incredibly grateful that all those years of trusting that if I kept on at it, little by little, plugging away to make the change, somehow I would arrive at the right place where I belong. First was the psychologist giving me that fate-filled piece of information. He helped me see where I needed to be. Second was coming here. Finding friends who have already arrived and feeling myself one amongst like-beings, for the first time. It's still all moving very fast, and the next step has already half taken itself! For the first time I actually feel excited about my life:) :)! Oh, and I've booked a holiday for myself and my son. My first break away in 12 years...Now I'm tired so will rest. Just wanted to let you know that I am actually ok, and that I do think of you all often and read what's being posted. Lots of pinky thoughts and warmest wishes to every one..Sapphira

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 05/02/08 09:00 AM

Dear Sapphira,
This all sounds so very great...
I will return here to answer your posting properly but now I have so very little time ( friday!! Bandtime)
Tomorrowevening I got a lot of time ( I think, seen from tis moment!!)So see you then oke..
In the mean time... Go for it and know we are with you all the way and with our love and hugs.... all dressed in pink!!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 05/02/08 09:31 AM

Hello Sapphira

What great news, you sound so positive. I read your post and felt so happy that you have come as far as you have in such a short time. I have to say that although I was smiling I did have a tear in my eye. I admire your strength and insight that has enabled you to do this. There will be no stopping you now! I'm sure other people on the forum would be interested in the path you took to acheiving this new way of life and you how you were able to look at the situation from a different perspective.
I think you are brilliant and someone we can all look up to, I feel as though I have met one of life's true heroines.

Maybe the coincidence with us all being ill is that because we all 'have too much heart' we are letting some go! \:\) I want to think of what happened as getting rid of something rather than getting something.
I'm feeling absolutely fine but I have decided to ditch anything that gives me stress as I know my incident was stress related and I'm not going to allow that to happen again.
Sometimes feeling unwell is the body just telling you to take it easy without feeling guilty so I hope your long awaited holiday makes you feel 100% again. Although with the huge efforts of your recent labours I'm not surprised you are worn out.

I hope it's the start of a wonderful new future. I look forward to hearing from you.

Best regards
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 05/03/08 03:42 AM

Dear Segaya,

It is so nice to hear that you are getting back into things, and I hope, as it seems, you are feeling somewhat better. I meant to say a while ago that I'm very glad for you that the acupuncture is bringing you such great results. I imagine your life must feel quite different without having to constantly cough. I wonder, was the coughing related to your heart condition? Just that I knew someone years ago who'd say, whenever she started to cough that never-quite-goes-away-cough, that her heart was playing up. She'd had two heart attacks and it was always a sign for her to take things easy. Perhaps it was a separate matter for you. I just wonder. But at least you finally don't have to deal with it and that's just great!!

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 05/03/08 05:13 AM

Hi Jan,

Thank you for your kind words and thank you too for the information about the octopus heart. That was very interesting. Interesting too that you also see the current process in terms of letting go. You haven't exactly said (have you?) what brought on your health crisis, but I do hope that you too are feeling much better. Your comment got me thinking about how who we are or, perhaps more, who we perceive ourselves to be, can be affected or conditioned by those we are around us and their perceptions of us. How much we can accept things that aren't really ours or up to us. Some people don't have a problem with this and are good at asserting themselves against this, but there are some of us who take so much to heart. Especially those of us who have spent any amount of time around an abusive person, particularly a psychopath, who has a vested interest in us doing this. There's a cumulative effect of being around people who put their stuff on us. My upbringing blinkered me from seeing this but thinking about your comment I see that for me a large part of the release has come from a letting go of attitudes and shames and such that actually aren't mine - realising this and trusting and allowing myself to step into the space of my own life. It's not easy and it feels a bit odd, like taking off a snug fitting shirt and putting on a baggy shirt two sizes too big, I ask myself is this really mine/me? But I am learning that I am the life - or the shirt - I choose. It seems that whichever one I wear long enough eventually I will grow to fit so I must choose my shirts wisely as my growing time will go into this. The big thing for me is that I CAN chose what to take on. Now having heart for myself and making my own life a priority. It's all so very new and this letting go runs to deep levels. And you have made me think on this again, so thank you:)There's a poem about this. I'll see if I can find it.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 05/06/08 02:02 PM

Hi Sapphira,

Thank you for your best wishes to helped!!
Indeed my coughing is parcly related to my heart condition. Although hardly recognized by cardiologists, in forinstance homeopathia it is a known symptom.
It is also related to my lungs though. Because it took almost 40 years to get my diagnoses there was to much flued in my blood. This wasn't pumped round enough because of the heartfailure and then it has to be 'stored' somewhere. With older people it gets in the legs and with younger people it gets in the lungs and liver. So, by all these years of being ill my lungs are now damaged.But..... Underneath is a different reason for it all together; You and Lady Crown knew it even before I knew it myself!!!
I knew for several years that I was clear voyand(???) in the way that I 'know things'....Now some weeks ago i discovered that it is far more then I ever could immagine.
I found that I feel all kind of things from other people...mostly fear. Everytime I pick up on something i start coughing....So work for me to do!!! I am now in the process of finding out what I feel and from whom..The next step is to stop it from surprising me.
I just came back from the acupuncture tonight and I can breath again...So that's a big relieve.

In the last copple of weeks I came to read here daily but was too tired to write and I only did when I thought it was necessary. I thought of you all so very much and missed our postings to each other a lot, not being able to put any energy in writing at all... Very frustrating!!!

I wonder how our Lady Crown is doing and if the family is over the anger...(no they won't be, I know, but maybe they will leaf it because they know now she will not react on it anyways)

My heart jumped reading you are going on a holyday with your son...This is great... a huges step in the right direction..yessssssss, you are taking care of yourself.... wauwwww
you are now at the point of rewarding yourself for being who you are and giving something nice to you. ( oooowwww this english!!!)

I am with you all in my thoughts and hug pinky hugs for everyone... love Segaya
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 05/07/08 12:56 AM

Dear Segaya,

As always I'm so happy to hear from you! I understand about your energy and I know this - that your thoughts are there, even when words are not:) So please take your time. My heart feels so full, you know, reading because there are words and the lines and then there is the in-between. They speak too. As you have already said, it shouldn;t be a surprise, and yet it always is, the similarities, yet again... I know exactly what you are saying about the sight and about feeling people's emotion, and what you mean about learning what is what, or more, what is whos. I feel so excited for you. Such a journey you are on:)

I also understand what you are saying about the feeling affecting your lungs. I have a similar thing although for me it is grief and only my own, not other people's. I would find that very scary! A few years ago I experienced pluerasy (sorry about my spelling) for four years in a row. It was so bad and painful, and I'd also had chronic fatigue and things just were not getting any better. I was led to Chi Kung. Do you know it? What was amazing for me about it was that I learned they consider the organs to store particular emotions and they have 5 sounds, one for each ogan, that, when expressed, help release them of the particular emotion being stored there. In that system the lungs store grief. The times I contacted my own deep grief I'd find I just couldn't breathe, like I was being smothered (again)and I just couldn't complete the release. But doing the exercises brought the grief to the surface but in more manageable amounts and I rarely have breathing problems now. If I do get to coughing I know it is because there is sadness. Obviously different systems work for different people, but it amazes me how we have both had to tackle this, although I have only had to do this for myself. You are amazing to feel in this way, receiving others. Yet it comes at a cost, no? But that is a wonderful thing and I'm so glad for you...and shame you are so far away cos I have a question or two I know you could probably sort out for me!:)

I too have been wondering about Lady Crown and keeping her in heart. I guess lots of changes all round, perhaps? It has been a very strange time, and it's curious that so many of us have been unwell and stressed all at once. Can't blame it on the water this time:) To be honest, I have been very mindful of how it has been for you lately and sensed a certain lightness about, but that may have been the good thing?? Obviously lots going on. But as I said before, please don't feel an urgency to write. The message hits the spot....oh, and I am always reassured when I sense something but don't have the confidence to say and wonder about it then you make a comment and things get set right. So thank you for that. Does that make any sense??:)

Pinky hugs received and sent with lots of love,
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 05/08/08 04:25 PM

My dear friend Sapphira,

And of course I could trust your reaction to be positive!!!
You are the first one you know....Always when I tell others about this feeling emotions of others they say it is scary, or I have to get rid of it, or that I am crazy to not shut it out etc......So thank you for being happy for me, because I am happy with it... Am I happy for coughing for so long?...No, hwhawh I am not but I see it was a stupid reaction of me not to think about it this way before, rather then a game that live is playing with me..I just had to know sooner...Well it's not too late so I can start identifying now can't I....It's like a whole new adventure to me and a very exiting one!!!
It is more difficult I think then seeing things... like seeing is more real or something, but well, This is my gift so I have to learn how to use it....

Well....these simmilarities again... Should it still surprise us????

( yessss it should, in a nice, positive way... bringing light in my life, yesssss it should!!!)

You know by now that I work as a Holistic therapist... One of the things I do is what we call..( and I can't translate it, so will name it and then explain...) feet diagnoses and reading toes....yeah yeah laugh at it... I did when first hearing about it..reading toes!!!...
Well every organ is reflexted in the feet and every toe is telling something about the personnallity and the caracter of the owner of those toes.. I do this now for several years and it still can ammaze me how much can be seen at the feet.
Well the feet diagnostic thing is not about the fysical side of being ill/ having fysical problems but about the emotional/ mental/ spiritual side of being ill. Also feet can tell all kind of things when people are troubled in a mental / emotional way.

Every organ, like you indeed mentioned, has it's particular meaning in the emotional/mental/spiritual way.
Lungs stand for fear of life and fear of death. This means they are involved in all kind of emotions concerning this range of fears.
You said in your case it was grief.... But what lies under the grief????? Fear of life or death???? Grief is an effect of something else often... Anyways;
Lungs are also the gate way to the outside world aren't they?!! I mean with saying 'the outside world', everything that doesn't has to do with you as a person directly.. So everybody else then you yourself is the outside world..even our own children are....
I mean...; You can shut your ears and eyes and nose or mouth.. No matter what, people need air to breath. So there is a way 'in'; ... The world gets in throught the airways directly into the lungs..( emotional/mental/spiritual seen).
But the other way around is as true as that... The inside world gets out no matter what through breathing.....
Now, by living a live like we had it is not strainge that we pick up on other persons emotions...Didn't we use that skill to survive our ordeal??? We HAD to know what kind of mood the Psychopath in our live was... we had to know immidiatly how to react towards them and how to respond on they're actions...
So looking at it that way it is not so very strainge that I discovered this in myself...The surprising part is more that I didn't knew it before....

Till last year I got 2 seasons of chi gong as we call it, but I can't effort it anymore...I think it is the same system of tai chi?
I couldn't help myself but laugh when I read you are practicing that kind of meditation skill.... How could you could I not!!!!!
I just shake my wise, grey head over it, enjoy it and smile...hahwhawhhahwha

The reason I asked you last time if you still know what date you got your chestpain is that I suspected it to be the same time I had it... Sounds strainge??? Yes, I think so but I didn't have chestpain for over 10 years now and those two days I did and I can't tell you why..I didn't understand it and there was no reason for it... Medically seen it is even imposible that I have chestpain. Also the thing Jan discribed is not possible for my stress level is below zero!!! ( and lalalala I am far to young for that!!!)

I really hope we hear from Lady Crown soon for I start worrying about her now....
O I think this sound like I want to press her to write and I don't mean to do so... Just that I am concerned about her well being.

Yesterday when I was on the point of leaving for the hospital to check my blood my son called..( the Psychopath son)
He didn't call me since he left the house in august last year. Well, He was in a accident again on tuesday.
This time he broke his wrist and his hand is crushed... His right hand.
I think it was exactly two years after his accident where he crushed his left foot. ( oooo if I translate this with the diagnostics..ppffff how accurate is life!!)
I called my other son who wants nothing to do with him anymore after the thing with working for him and no payment...) Both my youngest son and me did react in a very real way...O oke.....Somehow there is no emotion anymore...The Psychopath son is in accidents all the time...
What stroke me is that this was the first time in his life that I heard him saying that it hurt a lot....And stupid me almost felt for it... should it be.... could it be.... And then I tell myself again... no it isn't!!!

I went to the doctors last tuesday and there is probably a shortness..( excuse my language problem) of potassium (??) or a digoxin poisoning that is causing my health problems. I don't think it is of the digoxin, I recognize it as being the shortness of potassium... So I started to take that in a pill already while waiting for the results of the bloodtest. Half of may I have to go to the cardiologist for my checkup and then I will know more about the heartcondition and I think he will reasure me that everything with the heart is oke....
Saffira, when are you going for the holiday and is it a nice place you go to?...
About the questions you want to ask me; If you don't want to put them on the forum, then maybe Jan can help?
Love and pinky hugs..... Also for the ladies that don't write at the moment, knowing ;Lady Crown And Dianna.

hear form you all soon I hope; Segaya
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 05/08/08 07:26 PM

Dear Segaya,

First I just have to say I love the way you question everything! And the things you question - yes there is more to it. Where to start in replying, because there is so much in what you say.

I agree that the somatic experience is harder than seeing, because at least there is/can be a distance from that. I had a period where I felt in my body things that had happened to another person. When this happened the first time there was the intense physical pain of what had come through but also the huge confusion because I couldn't understand - or perhaps more, believe - what was happening. It took some time for the experience to filter down (or back?)through the physical to the emotional and to the psychic, and away. Other times I see things and it's from a distance and that is a lot easier, for sure. And as you say, how could these types of things not be part of who we are. Perhaps it is such a part of ordinary life for us, we can't really see it for the gift it is because it's always been there - had to be there - from such harsh beginnings. What strikes me when I read your words is just how much of a journey it is to reclaim ourselves! We lived our lives almsot without awareness of the strengths and gifts we actually possess. No one was there to affirm these things in us. (If there had been someone to care and affirm us like that possibly we would not of developed them to the extent we have, perhaps??) And a journey that takes us into the very way we see and experience life and the world, with such acute sensibility.

I love the way you describe the breathing and the way you've got me thinking about things. You know what I was saying about the grief and how I have to pull back beause of a kind of asthma and smothering I experience. I used to think that the asthma made me afraid that I was going to die if I went any deeper into the grief. But your comments have made me wonder whether the asthma is my trying to stop myself from breathing into the grief for fear of contacting the fear of dying that I KNOW underlies that. The other thing is that I am afraid of going into that grief because I'm either on my own or because I don't have someone with me who knows the fear that I am experiencing. By that I mean I have not come across anyone who appreciates in a knowing way the sheer terror of this. And I know you know what I mean and I think we talked before of it, it's perhaps not even the death as much as the terror of being confronted by the mind space of that person who was doing that. And the fear that I will plain go out of my mind if I contact my terror of this. So perhaps the "asthma" that I don't get any other time, is just me fighting the process for this reason. I know that this plug of terror is right at the core of my being and that it blocks so much energy. I got to the Chi Gong because after I remembered black-and-white what had happened and was so alone I couldnt go into it at all, I shut myself down. Immediately after the Chronic fatigue developed and various other illnesses, but also I developed sights and certain abilities were enhanced. So it was a good thing, but I know that until I move the energy at this level the healing can only be so far. However I totally trust the healing process and I see that any earlier I simply would not have been ready to contemplate a connection with this. So long as I was alone in the world without anyone else who I knew understood these experinces. And first I was waiting for understanding of what this was about. And in talking with you I now have that! In coming to terms with this entire reality and just getting used to how everything is starting to make sense now, I am finding these insights not nearly so overwhelming.

There is more I would like to say but right now I will wait. I'm aware that with these connections and your sensitivity that what affects one also affects another. I know you also take things in very deeply:) You have other questions I would like to answer and things to respond to also, but again, I will come back to them....I know that you are here and not going anywhere so no need for panic and I can take my time. I feel so blessed to know you and grateful for you being you...

Lot of Love,

BTW I think we call what you do Reflexology.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 05/09/08 01:27 AM

Dear Sapphira,
A short respons fromme for now...I just woke up!
Part of what I do is reflexology indeed. That is 'massaging' the feet isn't it. The same zones are used for this diagnosic system I was talking about. I don't know any other refexologist here who does what I do...Shame on them hwahhaw For this is making things so very clear and it gives more possibillities to help people...
I also will take time to come back to you...

Isn't this not feeling in a hurry because of the trust there is, not feeling panic to hold on... a bless... I really enjoy it and am very aware of it!!!
With all the love you can immagine!! Segaya
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 05/10/08 09:28 PM

Hi, everyone. I'm here. Sorry I've been absent for so so long, it's been pretty troublesome here for a while. Things have been so chaotic, and painful, that I haven't even been able to think about it myself, just separated it away from myself. Maybe that's not the best way, but it was all I could do just to get to the next day. Please don't think I wasn't thinking of you all, I was, but I just couldn't deal with it.

Of course, it's my Psychopath family again, or should I say "still"? While writing this, everything is telling me not to, just to keep it compartmentalized, because I don't want to feel it or deal with it. Cowardly, huh? But I wanted to connect with you all despite those feelings, and to let you know I was still on this plane.

The short version is that I had a huge fight with my mother, over the "photo album issue" and the insulting Easter phone call, where I was berated and castigated. I let it go for a while, then she said something, and I told her exactly how furiously angry I was at what had happened. She reacted with guilt (mine) and "how could I say that to her" and "everything she's done for me...". You all know the drill. The good part, if there is one, is that I didn't cave in, and start patting her hand and apologizing. I was too angry. I just kept going and told her everything I felt and how unjust they were to me. We were supposed to go home after that, but I took her to a restaurant without "clearing it with her" and said, "We're getting toast and tea." She just wanted to drop it, but I needed to continue. So we did, rather civilly, and really got nowhere. However, at one point, I said to her, " I had two car accidents and no-one even came to see how I was!" I told her how I felt about how she treats my Narcissistic brother, and the disparity between how we are treated, and that he never had to worry about any of the things that happened to me; being hungry, being alone, losing everything, having everything taken away.

A few days after that, without hearing from anyone, I had to stop by, and she proceeded to tell me that a promise she had made to me about five years ago to help me get a house was no longer "valid". She acted as if I had always known that. I was so devastated, it was like she slammed the door on my tomb. Then, she topped the whole thing by telling me that my brother went to therapy at ten, for about a year, then quit, and how he had nothing. No friends, no phone calls, no visits. I don't know where I got the strength to listen to that. Did I even exist? I had no friends, no phone calls, no visits, I don't have them now. I am poor and disabled and alone, and I live in two rooms and I can't even do laundry. He has the whole house and the contents and doesn't even have to work or take care of her. I said, "How can you compare my life to his, and I come out ahead?!!"

I can't, even while writing this, believe that she said all of that to my face. I was friendless and lonely and frightened to death, and it's like that didn't even exist, like I didn't even exist. Plus, as you all know, they took everything away from me, my room, my bed, my hopes, everything. None of that happened to him. Add the beatings from my father, and don't you think I might not come out anywhere on the list of things that count?

I'm trying very hard to keep writing this, but it's killing me, and I don't even want to. I know it sounds like just a bunch of complaints, but it's more than that to me. It couldn't be more clear that I don't even ever count, at all, and never did, and I don't know why I can't just get that through my head. We have been working very hard on our finances and came across a hierarchy of needs (Maslow) that people are supposed to meet, starting with food, shelter, and clothing. All of which I have never heard of as goals, and have none of them are even partially met. We tried to break it down with pen and paper, and were horrified to realize that we are barely struggling to stay in the first level, and the reactions to the standards were "doesn't make sense, afraid to do that, don't deserve it, don't deserve it, don't deserve it." And that last one was the food category.

These two things happening in conjunction has forced me to begin to think that their neglectful and resentful treatment of me has led me to not know how to take care of myself, keep myself safe, protected, and comfortable. What is wrong with me? How many times do I have to be hit in the face before I get that it's going to happen? Why do I have such resistance to accepting this? It couldn't be more clear.

I came home and told Lord Crown about it, and of course, he has always known and warned me that it was going on and going to keep happening. He predicted all of this years earlier. It's not that I didn't believe him, it's just like this empty wall is up and everytime it happens, I am just as shocked as before. And I'm not a stupid person. I don't know what I am.

Then she suddenly takes out all her jewelry and tells me she wants me to sell all of it, and my Psychopath sister and I are not allowed to go over it with her, or choose a sentimental piece. And believe me, she has a lot! So now I have thousands of dollars worth of diamonds etc., in my bedroom, some family pieces, and I'm supposed to sell it. Psychopath sister hit the roof when she heard that, and the phone calls started.

I guess I should just grow the hell up and start being able to deal with the reality. I'm staying in this suspended animation state of feeling hurt and wondering and always hopeful of being treated with kindness and justice, and in the meantime I don't even know how to take care of myself or my household. It doesn't even occur to me that I'm doing wrong, my standards and emotions and logic is so flawed.

I'm sorry this was so long, and I hope you all have a Happy Mother's Day. Maybe I'll get some kisses from the cats. And a lot of tranquilizers from Lord Crown. Sorry again about all the delay, and I hope you all are doing well and doing better with your health problems and other problems. Believe that I am thinking of you a lot.

Love, Lady Crown

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 05/10/08 11:18 PM

Dear Lady Crown!

I am so sorry that you are having to deal with these terrible events that are happening and drawing on your energy and soul so deeply. Yes, they are familiar, and yet still 'unbelieveable' all at the same time. Where do they stop?! And the double standards...?! Golly, I could give them all a good shake! They haven't changed, not one bit. Unlikely they ever will. But Lady Crown, how strong you sound, despite all of this dreadful, heartwrenching ignorance they are treating you with! Strong, yet hurt, yet fed-up yet determined. All in one. It is so good to hear from you! Even as things are, and please, there is no need to feel any shame. This process of accepting and coming to terms with is a process and no matter where along the road to change, most important is that you are on it - and you so definitely are!:) I feel so proud to read your post!! I'm crying as I write. I know you feel exhausted to the core and I know just how much of a risk and a trust it is for you to put your thoughts to post as you have. But I am so glad that you did!:) Last night I was awake trying to figure out what was happening for you and wishing you the best. So it is such a relief just to hear you - no matter what. But more than that, it is very clear that a window has been opened in your life and you have already flown through it. Although not all of you is free, the most essential part that leads the way for the rest of you, is. How brave and incredibly strong you are to be standing up as you are and demanding change. Life around you is in chaos and uproar as everything gets adjusted to accomodate this change. Now they are trying with all their tricks to get you back inside. She is giving it all she has, but once your being has taken a step forward you are not, and cannot be, the same and there is nothing anyone can do to turn things back to the way they were. A step backwards now and then is part of the process of going forwards. And in moving on you have space to look back and see things for what they really have been or ought to have been. It is excrutiatingly painful to face the reality of what was not, to look the injustices and betrayals square in the face. It sears right into the soul. And it takes a certain kind of strength to do this. You have this Lady Crown. No matter how daunting it may be to look at what you know you need for yourself and deserve, just being where you are is a sign that you will be able to handle the next stage, and this pain and hurt of clear vision will pass in its time - once you have been shown all you know you need to walk on from. It may feel overwhelming to see so much at once but you will digest it and eventually you will HAVE. In the meantime you are facing the backlash from those who would wish things had never changed. But their power is waning as your increases. Growing up and dealing with reality? You have already grown to see that because of the way you have been neglected it is so hard to take care of yourself. With a family that treats you like this, where were you to learn otherwise? It doesn't always have to be this way and being grown up means seeing this. As immature people we cannot. So already you are on the way, painful though it is. (And with all this stress, it is of course going to be even harder to take care of yourself right now. It is such a battle. You can only do what you can do.) Seeing it is the first step. Now you are talking about it. And she gave you the jewellery to sell?! The woman is beyond the pale!! She is SOOOOOOOOOO lucky it's not me with the jewellery as I'd be SOOOOOO tempted to sell it and run the heck out of there - but I'm naughty!!:) Just keep an eye out for the cracks - the little gaps where plans may slip in. Keep that fighting spirit up! No need for shame. Why is it so hard to get it into our heads? Because your head already has it - enough for now. But it has to go through our hearts - where it rips it to shreds before grabbing our intestines and hopefully making our feet irritated enough to start moving. It goes down before it goes up. If there's anything you wished for yourself before but didn't give, give it now. Didn't take? Take it now. And keep walking.

Lots of love and thoughts and cheering you all the way!

Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 05/12/08 10:47 PM

Dear Sapphira,

I was so happy to read your post, I don't feel strong however, I feel stunned and broken and very unhappy.

In the meantime you are facing the backlash from those who would wish things had never changed. But their power is waning as your increases. Growing up and dealing with reality? You have already grown to see that because of the way you have been neglected it is so hard to take care of yourself. With a family that treats you like this, where were you to learn otherwise? It doesn't always have to be this way and being grown up means seeing this. As immature people we cannot. So already you are on the way, painful though it is. (And with all this stress, it is of course going to be even harder to take care of yourself right now. It is such a battle. You can only do what you can do.) Seeing it is the first step. Now you are talking about it.

This really helped me a lot and makes such sense. I'm so ashamed of myself that I can't make simple decisions and my judgement is so so terrible. I know you said where are you to learn otherwise, and I understand that, but it makes me feel so stupid. I know there is a block up that keeps me from seeing and reacting correctly; Lord Crown said that it's because I never put myself into the picture when I have to make a decision, and he's right. It doesn't even occur to me to think, "How would that work for me, or is that something I want or need?" It simply doesn't even register. So of course I'm always being pushed around, a helpless terrible feeling of standing on the outskirts, with no impact on anything, just waiting. All I've ever done is wait for justice or kindness, when I should have been choosing something that was good for me.

This isn't really about them that's upsetting me. It's about me, unfortunately, and the loathing I feel for myself. I just want to get over this and be able to be lucid and be able to make good decisions, not ones that hamstring me over and over again. It's like looking at a table full of ingredients; that doesn't mean you can cook! I'm not able to put the pieces together and see the results of my actions, so I'm constantly making the same mistakes over and over, that keep me right where I am. Finances ruined, timing shot, not getting what I want or need.

I keep having this terrible feeling: there is a door, a huge iron door, between me and them. When it opens a fraction, I can see them for what they really are; distorted, selfish, uncaring. But the door slams shut because I know if I see what's in there, it will be so overwhelming, so monstrous, so huge, that I can never come back from it. I thought that it was seeing what they were really like, and then I realized that what was inside was the destruction of me. And I can't bear to see that. Even though I'm suffering from the results of it. After realizing this, I cried and cried and needed my first cat so badly, because he was my only friend then, to whisper into his little ears what I felt, to hold his head, and soak his fur with my tears, just as he had done then. But he's gone, and I need him so much.

I'm sorry this post is such a mess, but I wanted to write back to you and tell you I keep re-reading your post and it does make me feel better. Thank you so much, Sapphira. I'll try to write again soon, and hope you and everyone else are well in the meantime. With much pinky love,

Lady Crown
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 05/13/08 05:17 AM

Dear Lady Crown.

How hard this process of seeing reality actually is. What more difficult to face up to than who we are, or are not? It some ways it's easier when we don't see at all, and of course easier when we see and can apply ourselves in a new and self enhancing way. But being in between must be one of the hardest parts of the road - not in the old, not in the new, seeing the past but not seeing how to apply ourselves freshly in the future - as you said, seeing the ingedients but not knowing how to cook. Such a fabulous analogy! For me it was like living in a glass room. I could see things but not make contact, have no impact, no sense of immediacy between myself and the world. And how was I to get myself out of this? For me it felt like a neverending stuckness. Thankfully it wasn't. In a way I'm very glad for you that you are crying so much, washing out your soul with tears. Only in this way, slowly, slowly they will run clearer. Such a painful process, who would not want to get it done? It just takes time, like a tempering process, again and again returning to the fire, eventually to become stronger. As tears wear away rock, so they wear away glass, I found. And doors of iron too, when the time is right.

I know you don't feel strong and yet, to me, your post reveals images of strength. The iron door. It has withstood a lot strain and shows the strength of your mind, yes to compartmentalise. (Some people go on courses to learn this.) You ingenuiously created this door which has served you well as a vault. It sounds to me as though you are now employing it for a slightly different purpose, to open briefly and allow you glimpses through the crack. There is power in this. You can't change these realities you know are within but you are managing the process of self disclosure beautifully, you see? This is your power. Whatever they did, or try to do, they have not got to this part of your self determination. You are in charge on this level in yourself. This is the strength I was referring to. You know if it's too much and you have every right and responsibility to yourself to slam the door if it is so. And you are. Again, this is YOUR strength, and wisdom.

We haven't had picture book lives to look back on, or the great career or status in the outside world to remind us of how successful we have been. It can be very difficult to find some any sense of achievement or pride in ourselves. I still get this, and what I'm realising is that all I have is me. I am my own work in progress. Mine is the only life I can save. Real value in my life comes, it seems, from this constant work I need to do on myself. The only thing I can affect is me. I still have that feeling of not being able to affect "out there" but I have grown to believe that real power is personal. This may be why, to a large extent, psychopaths only have the amount of power we 'give' them or allow them to retain, because they don't have a lot of what I call genuine personal power. They can't evealuate themselves. They can't change or be changed. You may feel weak, but compare it with their weakness. It isn't often the weak ones that a psychopath will target. It's the strong ones, because they have something they want. (Personal) power. And no matter how powerless we may feel on certain levels, eventually this perception can change.

You mentioned feeling broken. Know, there is life after 'broken'. At first there is the walnut. Then it gets smashed, and we cry for the whole that is lost. We can't bear to look at the cracks because they remind us of what is gone and it pains us very deeply. We cannot imagine anything but what was broken. But if we look, again and again, at the cracks, eventually we get used to them and then suddenly we see between the cracks, beyond them, to the nut that is held within - the seed of things to come. It is a process. For me, where you are now, was such a lonely place. Unbearably lonely. Until I realised that, in some little ways, I was holding my own hand, doing something right for myself, despite the mountain of things I could see I wasn't getting right. You know, there were times I just couldn't imagine anything good about myself. But I knew I had to come up with something, so I made a point of saying, oh well, at least I'm prepared to listen to all this stuff!:) No one else was! And that was where I started, right at the bottom. Starting at the bottom is hard, but it's all up from there.

You are doing fine, Lady Crown, really you are. I hope, in some small way you can hold your hand in this.

Love and Blessings in pink,
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 05/14/08 02:46 PM

Dear Lady Crown,

I have been thinking about you and some things I meant to say last time but did not. I know that feeling of literally having no idea of what I want or need. That feeling of being simply unable to make a decision, and the pain and humiliation of making wrong decisions over and over again. The shame and humiliation and frustration with myself/life. And the sense of myself as a vapour almost - no weight, no bearing, helpless and unable to affect my life in a positive direction. And then some people get upset with us when we say really dislike ourselves! But we are like this because we were never given the freedom to learn and know what we want, what we value, what we prefer, what we need. People talk about the psychopath's need for control. What is it over? Those they can control. And this is what we lived. We never got to "GO" because they took over just as we were lining up to get there.

So when we take a step towards freedom all the consequences of being shut away from ourselves comes to the front. I had a massive collapse when I left my mother's house and ran away. I was so unprepared for life. A parent who wants her child to be autonomous will give her the skills to make choices and decisions for herself and her own wellbeing. Such children are taught over the years so that by the time they leave home they have a little bag of skills and they can handle life largely on their own. But we never had parents who wanted us to be autonomous so we never got the skills we needed. We didn't get to autonomy. We are all grown up but still in many ways feel like babies. Babies are unaware of who they are, totally absorbing and impressed upon by the mother/environment without any sense of being able to do for themselves, because they can't do for themselves. But with parents who do not oppress the child, from within will grow and emerge the unique aspects of who that child is. But our situation meant that instead of growing and emerging into the world, we just never got going just as we know we had the right to do. Gosh, how long it took me to learn to say no - to get to the 2 year old stage! I didn't even know until well into my 20's after being raped, that actually I had the right to say no. It was a very significant moment when this was pointed out to me. That is very hard to look back on and forgive in myself, I must say. So I can really relate to the shame and hurt of being like clean slates, to a large degree. As grown ups we know the frustration of this because we know what we lack and can compare ourselves with the self determination and actualisation that other adults have. We see they are well past the starting blocks. This doesn't help.

I wonder: isn't a great deal of the pain we feel about not knowing how or where to start getting ourselves? I believe that while most people's 'seed' of themselves grows bigger and outward, those who've had lives like us, their 'seed' goes inward. It gets buried. When we lose touch with it we feel lost and when we don't know where to look for it we feel helpless.

A lot of people just don't like it when we express feelings of disgust and contempt for ourselves or anger and resentment at what has been. Don't know about you but I've been too nice all my life and it was a very unusual thing when I actually admitted how much I scorned and hated myself for "being this way". It was actually a huge relief to just let these feelings out. Such feelings have more control over us when we deny them, but in addition to that, these underground feelings are where the seed can sometimes be found. I found that there was a treasure hidden in these swampy feelings. In the resentment, in my massive headaches lurked a person angry with what she'd been dished out and who wanted to fight back, stad up for herself, protect her own interests. The constant stubbing of my toe, was much the same. I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense. That the self determining part of us doesn't go away, it just goes underground and it's there, hiddent to preseve itself, waiting for us to find it and reclaim it.

Lots of Love,
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 05/14/08 02:53 PM

Hello Lady Crown

I was hoping that we hadn't heard from you for a while because you were taking a well deserved rest from the relatives.

These people are not worth your caring attitude, itís so sad to watch you try to do all the things normal people do for their families but your family havenít a clue what they are being offered. I understand what you hope to achieve and I so wish it would happen for you but I suspect your trauma is caused by knowing you are not able to do that.

You need to put yourself first although it is alien to you, only someone who has such empathy with others could be suffering like you are now. They are not suffering at all. That says so much to meÖ you are not like these people, they may be related to you but they have nothing in common with you. If they were your next door neighbours and treated you like this-would you have anything to do with them?
I understand that it is a lifeís dream to put the past right and Iím sure that is giving you so much grief because you are wise and know that wonít ever happen. Like grief for a death.

When we read about what you have achieved we all know that you will soon pull things back together and take the next step forward. In most situations we Ďfall of the wagoní now and again and maybe you lost your resolve for a moment and now you feel exposed by being so genuine and it backfired causing you so much unhappiness and uncertainty.

Why should you feel ashamed??? Thatís what your family hope will happen and you are not the sort of person who tolerates injusticeÖthey may have won this battle but I know you will win the war.

I hope all my positive thoughts will filter through to you and if or when you confront your relatives again you will think about the people who do care and feel the support.

What was it the first man on the moon saidÖĒone small stepÖ.etcĒ? Look how many achievements have been attained since then.

Best regards
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 05/15/08 12:22 PM

Hello Segaya

I hope you are feeling better, I get concerned when we donít hear from you after telling us you were not well recently.

I didnít realise you are a Reflexoligist, how fascinating. Did you have many people visit you who had a personality disorder and if so what part of the body does that relate to?. I have seen a Reflexoligist and he picked up immediately on two problems I have.

I was interested in what you said about the lungs, when my father died I felt I couldnít take in a deep enough breathe. It felt like I had heavy lead in my chest and it took up so much space that there was not enough room for my lungs to expand. When I forced a deep breathe it made me gasp and let out a little cry. It took ages before that feeling left me. I was very close to my father and his death was sudden so I suppose there was an element of shock too.
I also think my latest health problem was to do with stress, my mind was coping with it but my body was obviously not and needed to find a way to make me get away from it. My body tried that before by giving me a nervous breakdown but the stressful situation didnít go away so it seems to be finding another way to slow me down.

When I hear about what you, Sapphira and Lady Crown are going through I understand how strong you all are to keep going and not have a major collapse.
My body seems to blow a fuse when things get bad whereas the three of you battle through and with health issues too.
I have heard that bananas are good for potassium.

I have gone back to swimming miles every week and feeling physically strong has made such a difference to my mental state, that feels stronger too. My body feels tougher so I suppose this has an effect on my attitude. I felt today that Iím now strong enough to go back to my other passionÖwaterskiing! When I felt physically weak I knew I couldnít do it and because I was mentally weak I couldnít face the people in my old way of life.

I know the mind and body are well connected but I can honestly say I never felt it before today.
One thing I have learned from this is I need to spend time on myself. I have even bought new clothes for the first time in ages which is another sign of indulging myself. I have also enjoyed wearing new things whereas for the last few years I couldnít care less what I wore as long as it was comfortable. I wouldnít wear anything fitted which I suppose was avoiding drawing attention to myself, if I wore clothes that swamped me I would be less noticeable underneath. Looking at it nowÖ..what an odd thing to think!
When I did have to dress up I would dash home afterwards to take off the ĎfaÁadeí and get rid of the false clothes. They were not meÖ.again odd because they were me some time ago.

I hope we hear from you soon. How did you get on when you heard your son had an accident? Also what happened about the children, did he go for custody?

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 05/16/08 10:18 AM

Dear all of the pinky girlgroup ( and others ofcourse!!)
Thank you Jan.
I will come back to answer all your questions but you know it already ... friday evening...bandrehersal, so I have to save up my energy. I will try to replay tomorrow. know I come to read every day but still have a lack of energy ..Thinking of you all thought and feeling supported by all of you!!
Love Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 05/16/08 07:01 PM

Dear All,
So, I just came home from the reharsel and was thinking about you all evening.
I want to aswer so much to all that has happend on the forum..Lady Crown's brave story, Sapphira's wonderful replay on her, Jan's questions....
So much has happend also with me and it is simply too much to tell in one time..So I have decided to do it in steps..I will write some now and then later tomorrow and day's after probably will write the following.

About my son;As I told before...little over a week ago, on wednesday, he called to tell me he had an accident again. I think it was at the date exactly 2 years ago he had an accident and crushed his left foot. Now he says he has broken and crushed his right wrist and hand...I heard he was in pain and that confused me...he never has pain... not when something is broken or I was a little impressed.( and had my questionmarks!!)Anyway, his story is that he had to be operated a week that was last wednesday...
In the mean time he lost the phonenumber of the stephfather of his children and therefor could,'t call on the boys.He called on me to give him the number but I didn't..Last sunday he called me again and threatend me to tell the number or he will show up on they're doorstep.... I was very angry about this and called him back after a few minutes to tell him never to put me in between him and his children again. I will simply not play that game and told him to look for an other playball to do his thing with! As usual he started to curse at me. I am very glad with the red button on the phone at such moments.

Well last wednesday I called him very early to wish him well with his operation and he told me that he recieved a letter from the hospital that the operation was delayed till thursday, That day, wednesday, he had to go to hospital only to have some simple test they always do before an operation.
So thurstday I called in the early evening; No he didn't had the operation because; "yesterday I had forgotten all about the appointment in the hospital"....
Can anyone please tell me how you forget an apointment like that??????????( kidding)
Well anyway; he is still working and driving the car..
I think I am played with again....
Today he told me he was going to do all kindof things to make his situation worse. According to him this is the only way he will get help from the cofernment...ppff yeah oke!!!

My son is talking about suicide again and about how life is so very difficult and that nothing is going the right way for him... Always complaining and always looking for attention that way. He is trying to manipulate me into his lway and life and wants me to do, give him a roof over his proof that I am still his mother and he is blackmailing me that way...No, I say this the wrong way...he tries to manipulate me to do it his way and to feel sorry for him...Well it's a pitty for him, but I don't...
I know it sounds so hard and cold but I just can't anymore..It is done for me for such a long time already and after the experiences of last year I learned so much more again.
Also being here on the forum helps to be stable in refusig to let him be to close.

Yes, the fear of the comming time....( when he is around 27 years of age it will get very silent around him..too silent...)He is now 26 1/2 years... In October is his 27 what is next?
Still I know there is nothing I can do or say to change anything..I also know I have to respect him as just another human being who can make his own choices. he is his own person and like every parent I have to let go...And I do let it go... But somewhere deep inside...he is still my child and as a mother this coming time is very scary.

As I said; Next time I will answer more and repley to al the other postings..( noooo, not all.... most!!)
Lots of love ..miss writing here a lot.... But will pick up on it again..but forgive my silence for I am ill and very weak..
Pinky hugs and lots of love Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 05/18/08 02:42 AM

Hello Segaya

I'm pleased you feel well enough to go out and sing although that must really be hard work.

I often wonder why you still contact your son if all he feeds you is negativity and stories, do you still feel that there may just be some humanity in him? I got to the stage with my partner's kid that I did not speak to him about anything other than telling him food was on the table even though he was living in the same house.
Everything that came out of his mouth was either a lie or said to gain him something, there was nothing genuine and certainly nothing said from his soul...he doesn't have a soul to speak from!

It's was so easy for me because this kid was nothing to do with me and I never liked him from the start (intuition?) so when he went back to his mother I was ecstatic! I am happy and relieved that he has cut all contact.

I don't understand about things going quiet on your son's birtday, has something been planned?

I go to the hospital tomorrow for more tests, then to the court to pick up the judgement from the last hearing that I couldn't attend because of the heart problem so it's not a day I'm looking forward to. I'm sure my heart problem was just the culmination of an extemely stressful time but I still feel a little concerned there may be something wrong.It's always the not knowing that causes so much angst.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 05/18/08 03:11 PM

Hi Jan,

Sometimes I feel like calling to cansel the rehersal but something stops me from doing that. The strange thing is that every time I think I can not sing longer than at the most for half an hour, and every time I get energy from it an am able to sing the full evening. I have to add that I sit while singing. Standing is too hard for me at the moment. The other members of the band are oke with that for they also know I will do every thing to get better again. For now we don't do anything else than reharsing for we have a 'new band'...

Why do I still keep in contact with my son?...Good question..!! I don't expect anything from changes, no nothing. I know who and what he is...Somehow I keep in contact just to know if he still is alive.. and want to know what he is doing or where he is living....
It'not because I expect him to change and act differently toward me or live. Maybe indeed it is because he is my birthchild. While writing this I am considering if it has anything to do with my other son....I thing it has.
Not because my younger son wants me to keep in contact with his older brother. He himself doesn't want any contact no more since things that I told happend last year.( he still didn't pay my younger son for all the work he did)
It's possible only in my head, but I think it will be bad for my younger son if his mother totally ignored his brother. We have no family in the sense that I am not in contact with anyone from my family... His fathers family is in an other continent, so the only sense of family is in our little family as being the mother with her two children.
Does this say anything for you?

I am so glad you go for the other tests. Better be save then sorry!! Will you get the results the same day or do you have to go on an other day for meeting the cardiologist?
As I read you are doing a lot of sports again. Well I take it you are old enough to know what you are doing. I only can hope you will be very carefull with yourself and love yourself enough to stay on the save side.

I promised to write, I know, but I am still very tired. The next two days I won't be home but probabbly I will get near a computer so posibbly be able to write more then.

I hope everyone is doing well and I asure you are all in my head and heart... ( my heart is pink now instade of red!!!!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 05/19/08 10:52 AM

Hello Segaya

I know what you mean about finding a source of energy when you are doing something you enjoy and it's good to hear you are well enough to rehearse.
I went to the hospital today for the full tests and was given the 'all clear. The cardiologist could rule out all the possible problems.....apart from Tako Tsubo Syndrome!!! The reason he couldn't say it couldn't be that is because he would need to do an ECG at the time it was happening to know for sure.

It was such a relief that there is no long term damage and his advice was to keep stress out of my life -as much as is possible. He also said to keep doing all the things I'm doing now as he had never had anyone who could complete the treadmill test before and my heart trace, pulse and blood pressure were OK with no signs of any abnormalities.

I understand what you mean about your little family unit, you have no-one to share the responsibility of your son with so it is totally down to you. We were very lucky that my partner's son could back to his own mother so we could relinquish responsibility. My partner thinks of his kid as 'dead' as all he can do is grieve for the child he thought he had. The one he really had was not the sort of kid anyone would wish for.

Please don't worry about replying to me, you need to rest and when you feel well again I will enjoy hearing from you and how things are going for you.

Now it's my turn to tell you to take it easy and look after yourself, don't push yourself too hard.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 06/05/08 03:19 PM

hello Everybody.

So this has been a while... for me too long.
I am a little bit better and am still trying to get more energy.
I read a lot her everyday. Read all about the sister in law who fled the situation, read about Detroitman and his concerns and ooohhh I want to say so many things to everyone and nothing comes out because of me being ill...very frustrating!!!
Sapphira... you pinky girl!!! You make me so very very proud....
Are you really doing so fine???? I find it almost unbelievable what I read from you!! 'almost'... because I know for a fact that I have the same speed in going through things myself. No doubt about, but now seeing the same thing in someone else is suprising isn't it!!!!
You are on a holiday and you are staying longer...Girl... wauwie..that means to me you valeu yourself now in a way that you reward yourself..ohh, if only you could see my face reading that!!!!!! Is your son having a good time too?? I expect he is, otherwise you would go home to make him more comfortable I guess?!
Lady Crown we didn't hear from you also for quite some time, are you doing better already and is there something we can do for you, talk about, share, anything?
Jan....I was so very relieved that you went back to the doctors and did your check up!! I hope you get all right before the next courtdate and be strong again before that time!
Dianne..... You are so very quiet, how are you? ( I hope you can write something , if not than please let go...)

My son is still in jail, still feeling very sorry for himself and still complaining about the world is doing it wrong and he is right. Nothing changed!!
he tries to call me every now and again. he does it with collect call, which is very expansive. Last monday he called again, no idea why but when I spoke back to him he started to yell and scream again. I told him I am not paying for this and hang up.. he called tree times after that but I didn't pick the phone anymore.
It is very hard to let go under the circumstances and I notice more emotions by myself than I really want to admit. It's below the surface of the conscious. I withhold it really I think.
I know there is more to come and I can't do anything more than wait and see for what will happen.

In hte mean time my life has to moe on and i want to go forward. So I try to do what i can ( that isn't very much)and try to make time and energy or the nicer thing in life like not only reading but also writing on this forum.

Hope to see you soon!!
With all thoughts of everybody, especially the pinky triangle!!!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 06/06/08 05:53 AM

Hi Segaya

It's good to see you on the forum again and I hope you soon feel well enough to give some of your time to us. Your very useful insight into the problems people are facing is missed, you have a wonderful way of motivating us into action with your honest straight talking. After the terrible things you have endured and continued ill health you are an inspiration as you carry on with your life in a very optimistic way.

I can understand how you must feel about your reaction to your son's contact, he is giving you nothing and expecting so much from you but as a mother the natural instinct is to give our children anything they need. You cannot do this for your son so it goes against all the maternal instincts.

Do you feel any guilt about how you feel about your son or are you able to see the situation as it is? Obviously you will have a lot of sadness and hurt but that is different to guilt?
Do you know when he is being released from prison and where he will go? That must be a worry for many reasons partly because he will come and see you and may be aggressive. At least you know where he is now and he has his needs taken care of. It's interesting that it is you he turns to every time, is that because he has alienated everyone else?

I hope we get better news from you soon.

I'm doing OK health wise but still waiting to see if we can get an out of court settlement before the next hearing as I do not think it would be good for me to go through another ordeal like that. I have done all I can to make that happen but the ex wnats to drag me as far down as he can so keeps it going.

Posted by: Damaskrose

Re: General Discussi - 06/06/08 03:06 PM

sorry forgot to hit quote button this is in response to the question What exactly makes a psychopath? by saddistic chaos....

hi having raised five children only one of who shows signs of psychopathy and that child ws adopted age four I think it is nature which makes you more susceptible and nurture which can ram the point home so to speak. But it could be that the child's early years structure the child for one way or the other. There are plenty of people who have terrible lives as children who do not turn out to be psychopaths. And this is what the general public don't understand. They see a murderer and think that guy had a choice. I think most criminals don't have a clear cut choice like most of us do. They have been hardwired by something somehow to react in a certain way. Having suffered depression myself I understand how it is possible to be present but absent.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 06/19/08 03:42 PM

HAi pinky girlgroup.
I am missing everybody here????
Lady Crown, by now I am not only thinking of you a lot, but now I am worried a lot..How are you, since your last posting we didn't here from you again, and in that posting you showed you were in great sadness and all?
No, you don't HAVE to write to us or on this forum in general,you are free to do so or not, but I think I speak for all of us; we do like to hear something from you.....
Sapphira, Are you back from your holiday yet? How are you, how was coming home again for you and your son? Are you working again or is there still a bit time for yourself to relax a bit? Are you all right????
Dianna, I see your little postings sometimes and always am happy to see your name on the forum.
Are you doing a bit better also..Ppff it tkes a long time doesn't it, recovering from being ill.Iam buzy for months already, almost a year...I hope for you it will go faster then that...
Jan,are you enjoying being back agian...Back on the forum I mean.....I see you write more agian andthat you support everybody here....And doing a great job in how you do it!!!!
Love and pinky hugs Sgaya
Posted by: Damaskrose

Re: General Discussi - 06/22/08 08:32 PM

How do you know if a psychopath is dangerous to the point of murder? Have been reading various true stories lately and it seems no one knows until too late. The childhood thing of killing animals seems to be a major pointer but they are all on different levels aren't they? I mean there are some just content to mess up their families lives on day to day basis and some harbour murderous rage which will come out at some point. And of course there is everything in between these extremes. It seems they can stroke our senses to the point where we don't see clearly the danger we are in around them.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 06/23/08 02:11 AM

Hello Damaskrose

That is an extremely difficult question to answer. I am very concerned that you are asking it. Are you asking because you think your daughter could be capable of doing this? I sincerely hope not and that it is just a general question and you can put thoughts like that out of your mind. Psychopathy is a specrum disorder and each person will have different actions and reactions.
I think it's better if you just concentrate on looking after yourself emotionally, keep well away from her and as I've said before do not let her get hold of any information/ammunition to use against you.
We have instincts for a reason and you may need to use his skill rather than rely on logic.

Has your daughter got a history of cruelty to animals or small children?

I know it's wise to have awareness of possibilities but don't let thoughts like this distract you from what is actually there.

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 06/24/08 06:36 AM

Hi again Pinky Ladies,

I'm back from my holiday a week now and finally checking in. I wonder how you all are. I thought of you all lots while I was away. Segaya, I hope your health is going from strength to strength. And Jan, did you have to go to court in the end? Wondering about Lady Crown...any news? I have a little something I came across that I hope may be of benefit for you Lady Crown. It was for me. I'd like to share this with you next time.

I had a very special time with my son. It was so relaxing and a real chance to just let go for a while. I stayed on longer than planned because when it was time to come home I literally couldn't bring myself to get back on the plane. Finally stopping after so many years of running on was a shock to my system and when I did I couldn't get going again. A lot of feelings I hadn't had time to deal with caught up with me and I had to do some unexpecting processing. But it's all good. Now back to the old and familiar but I realise the years of stress and trauma have taken their toll and I need to make some changes...or should I say more changes. It is such an ongoing process.But I am so glad I went away. I even managed to go shopping (for myself) and buy some new clothes. Ok, so they are all the one colour - but hey, at least it's progress...and they aren't all black.

Any way, it's good to be back and I'm looking forward to hearing how you all are doing.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 06/24/08 03:38 PM

Hi Sapphira

I'm so pleased to hear from you and how much you enjoyed your holiday. You deserved it and it must have been great to have that time for just you and your son. I have also bought some new clothes....and not all black!!! I think we must be doing some telepathic shopping. I bought a pink top but still looking for a chance to wear it.

I often wonder about Lady Crown and think about how she is coping but I do feel more comfortable knowing she has such a brilliant, supportive husband. So Lady Crown if you are reading we all still think about you and I still think about the day your troops were with you.

Yes-I did go to court and thanks to Segaya I coped far better than I could have imagined. I got to the court early and practiced her techniques and would advise everyone to check them out on the forum. I found the right one for the week before I went to court was 'the old tree' and when I was called in I felt there was nothing I could have done better.
I won't bore you with the details but I represented myself and did better than the solicitor opposing me!!! YES! I achieved more than I could have hoped for and all because I felt in charge. From now on I'm not worried about any of this legal farce.

A turning point and I'm going to build on it, sounds like the same for you too. I find it hard to come home and go back to where to where I left off as things have moved on and I have lost the bookmark for the page I was on.

When you feel up to it I'd love to hear all about your holiday and how it will help you move on. I'm glad you are 'back'.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 06/25/08 05:45 PM

hai Sapphira,
So glad you are back.
I went to hospital today. Everything is oke but I am exhausted, so will write some more very soon.
My heart jumped when I saw you write something. I am worried about Lady Crown but I think we have to be patient and just wait till she shows again.
Love Segaya
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 06/25/08 07:08 PM

Hi Jan,

That's great news - to hear you did so well in court. You must be feeling really proud of yourself, and deservedly so. Well done! Such a big leap: from being reluctant, even somewhat fearful of even having to face up, to then meeting the challenge and doing really well. Watch out Mr Incredible!! Or should I say Erin Brokovich. I wonder what you will do next? Because these kinds of leaps are rarely one offs.

It was funny reading what you said about loosing the bookmark. I relate totally. It's as though I've jumped off the old page and am on the new page already but keep looking back for the old bookmark to tell me where I was. And of course I'm changing but no one else is. Or at least not so fast. I have to keep telling myself I'm already here and deal with the anxiety that arises about when the rug is going to be pulled out from under me. Old fears die hard.

Yes, the holiday certainly was a turning point. Just before I went away I had another health scare, and since being back it's reared it's head again. It was ironic that Segaya asked if I really was doing so well, because on one level I was, mentally, but physically my body was falling apart. No secrets with Segaya!:) We are so accustomed to living in a war zone that we take so much in our stride. But there comes a time when the system catches up and says, "Not so fast". I think this was the big adjustment for me. I could see how tough and almost invincible I believed myself to be, but really I'm not. No one is. Everyone tells me I'm such a fighter. But I'm tired of fighting, and also I physically can't do it anymore. So the time has come for me to take some of my fingers out of some of the pies and refocus.

Along with that comes the old fears and anxieties but now I understand them. Growing up with such constant threat it is hard to really believe one is ever truly safe. And this type of vigilance, even when it is hidden behind competence or achievement or drive, still takes it's toll. On an inner level it's hard to ever really relax. So I need to learn to do this - to just rest. To just go slower, and to trust that life isn't going to suddenly take it all away from me. Part of it is about revisioning myself. It's great to be able to have that warrior aspect but I hope she has fought enough and secured a new inner landscape for myself. And you know I'm a determind person, so...yes, things aren't where they were but settling into a new groove - slowly.

Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 06/26/08 03:41 PM

Hi Segaya,

So nice to hear from you too! I do hope that you were just back for checkup today. You say you are ok so that's good. I'm fine too. Feel like such a different person after the break, and yet still the same. Have a big day with my son about schooling so I will write more later on, but I just wanted to say a quick hello.

Love Sapphira
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 06/26/08 04:30 PM

hai Sapphira,

O how I recongnize it again.
We are so used to be in a warzone..... Indeed, I see it in my own life over and over again.
it is sometimes in every corner that we expect an enemy. And then you discover that there are only enemies in your own head now. Just because we are so use to fighting and so very tired of it at the same time.
Yesterday there was a woman in hospital ,she threatned me real bad. Yelled at me for absolutely nothing..I try to calm her by explaining things and then she started to threaten me that she wouldn't do the test I came for... I exploded, really and badly exploded..... wasn't this angry since my oldest son was around 8 or 9 years old. That is 17 years ago.....I am ashamed of it on one hand but the other site of it is...I am no longer a victim and the first person who tries to make me one, will know immidiatally.
I regret that life gives us situations in which we are in a position again where people seem to want power over us and it is a pitty isn't it that over and over again we have to 'proof 'something'.
Yeah, ofcourse we are strong. we have to, but being strong doesn't mean at all that we don't feel. People around tend to forget that being strong is a part of us and for whatever reason we hide our vulnerability also. Is that shame, or just being us??? I sometimes think I know the answer and then again I don't.
It's an on going process and as the old feelings are still there we will learn in time that there is no need for them any longer. Till we can relax in the moment it will bother us...But when knowing and give it the right place in our lives we will out grow it and a bit later we will not even think of it anymore....can you immagine that!!!.
what I learned from the situation in hospital is that whenever, and who ever tries to threaten me is not hay afterwards. I know how to defent myself and oke, I have to do it a bit ore in control the next time...But I am learning still.

I am sorry that your physical healt is not good and that it comes back all the time. I hope you know what is wrong and what to do about it. I didn't know for sure that you were not feeling well. it is just that I know the process, we lived almost the same life so it is not hard to tell is it...I just look in the mirror!!!
So glad you are back and waiting for our other friends! ( Lay Crown and Di)
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 06/27/08 05:34 AM

Dear Segaya,

It really is nice to speak with you again. I had a little chuckle to myself when you mentioned having to prove ourselves all the time. Yes, so true. It makes me think about when I discovered philosophy and Camus' "fight, fight, fight". The existential rawness. And this is where we have grown ourselves - on these kinds of borders. Everything was a fight for existence. Our brain pathways were etched in the fight. The last couple of years I keep telling myself "the war is over" but within my body and the depths of myself there is only one way to be. What can we hope for other than gradual adjustments over time. Don't you feel sad though sometimes? I do. I just wish I could be a bit more open with people but it's just so automatic and even when I wish to be open I just can't, on that deep level, I mean. I asked myself whether I'm not open because my instinct is picking upon something, in which case its good. But I've got to the point where I do wonder whether I ever really can be open in that way. Perhaps it's about getting to a point of trusting someone. And I could only really trust someone who really knows. But I just wonder whether my entire capacity to ever trust is gone. Perhaps it is. And perhaps I know this and it's this that brings the sadness. The price of surviving, no?

And I know exactly what you mean about being so determind not allow ourselves to be victimised again. No compromising on that - good job!! I was thinking about another post I was reading and it made me realise that when really dealing with these types it's either sink or swim. No middle ground. It's like that split second when an escape route presents itself, one just runs. And I think this has also determind our way to a large degree. No excuses. No room for grey areas. Split second reaction times. The real deal eliminates a lot of 'fuzz'. So we become straight talkers and fierce fighters. Not everyone can deal with that. Maybe we do give more force than perhaps 'necessary', but we were cut from a very particular piece of cloth. And there aren't many people who will come up to us and pat us on the back and tell us what a great job we did to get through. Our type of survival doesn't get a lot of applause. But it was these skills that got us through. That bottom line refusal to be a victim that got us through. So no excuses, and no tolerance. And doesn't it get tiring that we still have to keep fighting? Is that possibly what some of the anger was about, underneath it all? That after everything we STILL have to fight - for basic respect and dignity? As you say, it really is tiring.

And as you say, it is a learning. Honestly, I can't trust 'it' yet. I feel really quite suspicious of it. But I recognise the process. I still feel a simmering something saying to life, go on, I dare you to pull the rug out. I know that there is a sense that if something did happen I sure as heck wouldn't be able to contain it. And in some ways it would be a relief that it came out. I know what you mean about the shame and that. There's always that but in the bigger picture it seems to me part of the process. And given what we have been through, we've done amazingly well. I mean a lot of people would have turned violent or criminal or all sorts with less. We have carried this a long way for a long time and I think we have a remarkable degree of self control. Everyone blows it now and then. And even though we work really hard the pressures are still there. We will learn because we are of the kind to do so. No doubt. And it always amazes me - we still take double the responsibiity while they take none. So no question we are always working on ourselves and I guess there is always room for moreself control, but I just want to say, from a knowing point of view, that given all you have known yourself that I think you have incredible self control! Maybe this was more part of a coming to terms with it on yet another level now. Do you think? Just a part of another round?

You asked if I can imagine getting to the point of not thinking about it? In a way I kind of can, but I think we grew a second set of ears so when one set is happy and relaxed and alseep the second set will always be awake. So yes I can imagine the one set relaxing but no I can't ever imagine the other closing down. And knowing what's out there in life, I don;tknow if I actually would want them to. But I know what you mean, just relaxing some more, enough to actually rest. That would be nice. Just resting. And I'm sure we will get there. With time.

Posted by: Damaskrose

Re: General Discussi - 06/27/08 08:02 AM

hi jan I guess on some level I must be worrying about how far the whole game will go. I have been watching too many documentaries on the discovery channel maybe. But my gut feeling is having seen the extent of planning and time that has gone in to my daughter trying to get 'revenge' I can't say how far she would go. [She did harm younger children and showed no empathy for animals at all]. Voicing my fears makes me sound crazy I guess. I don't have any evidence only my feelings. Believe me I am staying as far as possible away and focusing on my mental and physical health and actually we are moving in summer. Hopefully this will mean a better way forward for both of us. I think the small community we move within creates numerous ways for my daughter to game play and so I am using this as an opportunity to do something I always wanted to do which is live in the countryside. Take the opportunities when they present I say..... and the children will have a healthier life. Though daresay we will find it too quiet to begin with. If I am right it will also force my daughter to focus on something or someone else and if she wanted to continue making trouble it would be difficult for her as we would be many miles away. All of the avenues where she was getting information have been cut and it has gone very quiet. Thanks for taking time to answer my posts when you have problems of your own. I just don't talk about this to people and it helps to read the posts back. I guess it is a form of documentation as well also I have to parent the other children and so it helps to try and figure out where things went wrong before and be a better mum.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 06/27/08 09:29 AM

Hello Damaskrose

The first thing I would like you to believe is that you didn't do anything wrong and there's nothing wrong with your parenting skills. Children like your daughter cannot be parented as you would a normal child, it is universally known that it's impossible with personality disordered children.

We have insticts for a reason so maybe you should listen to yours, you don't have to predict an outcome-that will be out of your hands -but forewarned is forearmed.

I'm pleased to hear you are making a move to the country, I live in a village and would never want to live in a town, the slower pace of life makes me feel more relaxed than I would if I lived in a large town. I hope you will find this too with the advantage of knowing that your daughter has been left behind.

No need to thank me for replying to your posts, if I can use the experience I went through to help someone else then it will not be a wasted experience. It also helps take my mind off my current problems that I can do little about so maybe I should be saying thank you to the members for helping me too.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about your move forward so please keep letting us know how you are getting on.

Posted by: Damaskrose

Re: General Discussi - 06/27/08 11:25 AM

hi segaya you are right about being in the fight mode. As I said to Jan we are moving to a house in the countryside and hopefully the change in pace will help me to achieve a relaxed state of mind. Where we live is like a war zone actually with fights and stress and police sirens day and night. I hope I can learn to walk happy and free from worry again. A change is as good as a rest they say so hopefully a new chapter opens for our family. My eldest son got baptized last week. He is such a kind young man and helps me take care of the others I should count my blessings instead of worrying about the other stuff. I am determined not to be a victim all my life and agree that sometimes we must stand up for ourselves if we don't others will walk all over us in hob nail boots. Years of running around on eggshells has made me walk away from confrontation but I am changing and the more I am on my own the more I trust my judgement.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 06/27/08 07:12 PM

Hai Sapphira,
I think I mentioned it in an earlier topic already...I just have a big problem with the ego of people. They seem to think ThEY know, THEY are, THEY are intitled to...and others are nothing. I don't know.. I don't feel more, eventhough most of the time I do know more... I don't feel this is of my own doing, it is just something I got with birth, and I just don't understand people can think that way. So with the example I gave about the lady in hospital..She thought she was somewhere far above me... I was a patient, a sick person and, she thought, depending on her..yeah well..... Don't think so!
I don't regret telling her the place she diserved...I regret doing it in such an emotional way. almost out of control.... This made me react on the same level she was...and I am not... I have to do better next time.
As I said; I was exhausted, so very relieved I found that place, and completely innocent at that moment of any secondairy agenda....and then she started to shout at me....It felt like she grebt me and through me 35 years back in time......And no way I am going to allow somebody to do that and not take action against it.....

That 'second set of ears'...What a great way to discribe it!!!!
You know what...I am happy with allows me to rest, relax, take and live life as I want it, and still have trust this second set of ears will warn me if necessary!!!
And it does!
I remember the time I was on the choir..We had a conductor( is that the right name) he was the only man in that company, he used to shout at, and manipulate the women...except me..I saw right through his manors and actions. warnd the other women even and ofcourse they didn't believe me...untill he was arrested for exactly the type of crime I warnd them for....I have thousands of examples and I know there is no need to name more for you will have the same thing..Isn't that great.... We will never be naief in those things anymore, our intuition will guide us and tell us what to do. This way we are protected in a way others are not...And so at the long run we benefit from it now.
I am too open sometimes..I don't have that shield to protect and to be honest...Why should I??
I understand why people have it, but nothing human is strainge to me or others, eventhough they often wil deny it.I am just a person that doesn't hold back, that is who I am, my personnality..and probably you aren't and that is oke isn't it..
Sometimes i wonder and think about who Iwould be with another kind of youth...I am not averige....( ???) I have this way of thinking and living that is not ordenairy, ot like others.... But to be honest....When my youth and rest of my life would have be more normal...I don't think I would be the same as others also...i like to think that i am that as a person, past or not...
It's just the way I am... I observe more than others,not only , I think, because it is a survival skill, but also because of my personallity .I like to study, so have a lot of knowledge others don't....that makes me see things in a bigger perspective.. Don't think that has anything to do with my upbringing also...
Having the life that is mine makes it all more clear and it is easy to mark that as the reason, but I doubt it seriously that this is the only reason...
I see the same things with you, you observe more than 'normal'... You read a lot, study things others don't and you are the kind of person not to lay down and keep still and let others tell you how to think or act...You got your own mind. Maybe our lives made it stronger, but different?? I really seriously doubt it...
Love and pinky hugs Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 06/27/08 07:25 PM

Hi damaskrose,
I wrote a whole replay on you..and it vanished!!!!
I will write it again, but not is half past 3 at night where I live so time for bed!!!!
See you soon!
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 06/27/08 11:33 PM

Dear Segaya,

I understand now what you mean and no, I don't believe it is simply because of the past. I agree we are by nature sensitives and so we are affected as deeply. I feel, for myself, that on one hand the pain went in so far partly because of this. And at the same time perhaps my natural skills have helped survive it too. Made us stronger as you said. I'd never really thought about myself in these ways before, but lately I am having to come to terms with the natural sensitivity and awareness. For so long it was simply 'there's something wrong with me'. And this recent understanding of what's actually wrong with my mother and not so much me is as far as I got. And right now everything feels a lot like soup. So please forgive me if I'm a bit off-centre with things. But I think I know what you mean about reacting so emotionally as you did. I remember certain times my ex husband would press my buttons and I couldn;t help but react. Of course, I felt so frustrated because I knew I'd reacted not as I felt proud of and had played right into his game. I hadn't got to the point where I was able to resist reacting to him. So in this way I understand what you say about self control. It is hard, though, when one is physically low and/or vulnerable, to keep these controls controls on ourselves. That's why I think my mother was a nurse, because everyone she dealt with was sick and vulnerable and weakened. She had a head start. The only time she ever showed any 'pleasure' being around me - apart from when she was actively hurting me - was when I was sick. She could cope then. Everything was in it's right place and she was on top.

I'd never really thought about myself like that, as being so observant. I always perceived myself as blind in many ways. I've always picked things up about people, my problem has been that I couldn't understand what the feelings meant. So I just figured I wasn't a very observant person. It was hard not knowing how to express ordinary feelings and emotions because I grew up in a void on that count, but how to decipher these other signals I picked up that were more subtle. Like learning another language in a way. With people, that is. Yet I always knew when there was a burglar around. I could tell my neighbour or my ex husband and they would just ignore me, and of course, they got broken into. I you know the story of Cassandra?

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 06/28/08 07:24 AM

Dear sapphira,
No I don't know about Cassandra, but I looked it up already. I will read it and then respond to you oke.
I have to go to sleep again now and will return tonight.
Love segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 07/01/08 05:47 PM

hi Sapphira,
I thought I repleyed your posting already...grazy me!!!!
Sorry for that!
I read the story of Cassandra and know what you mean it is like that a lot of times isn't it....
I am not sure though if knowing things on forehand is just a lot of experience and having an overview or that it is because I am sensitive. I like to think it is a little bit of both. I am sure we have our antennas, or like you call it; 'our extra ears' to keep us save now.
Another thing I am sure of is that some people do hear us and are listening. All experiences we have in live can be used for others to benefit from it. Looking at how you can explain things in such a clear way and such loving words always makes me wonder and so very proud. I think the only way a person can do that is by experience. How can somebody say it like that who only knows by books or hear say?
The way you can put all into words, what others are strucling to say without finding the right words, is ammazing. Right on the spot and I like you to teach me how to do that in such a gentle way....I have a lot to learn from you there!!!!
if people would have to choose who is the word magician it won't be hard...
because of that probably you will never really be a Cassandra!!!
There will always be people who listen to you, I know I am. The wisdom that sounds through your postings is incredible. Thinking of the time in which you are getting through all the hard things is a wonder on its own. I know the hard work you are doing and I do remeber how it feels. The thing that is for me the mostis the way you deal with all feelings that are involved and the way you experience them, live them and somehow can express them.
i will come back to you with some more...For now; I have to go and sleep.....
Love and a lot of hugs Segaya
Posted by: Damaskrose

Re: General Discussi - 07/05/08 07:33 AM

hi sapphira and segaya I have had the most stressful few weeks. Counselling is helping and also causing stress itself. This looking into yourself is not easy and I now quite understand why narcissists decide to build a whole alternate world as children. If you do not have the emotional support wow how hard it is to hang on in there. I always thought I could read people but now I find I am actually not good at doing that. I do get senses about things and people. I used to ignore them and was good at finding excuses for why people were behaving one way or another. Usually letting them off the hook by thinking oh they are depressed or had a bad childhood and looking for the good time and again. I have taken my life back to the bone and looked at everything from the new viewpoint I have gained. I have assessed relationships and given myself time and space to clean the cobwebs away. It seems to be working. I realise it is not all about me and that is a great weight off my mind. I truly believed I was to blame for everything. There is a positive to every negative and it may be a positive we don not want to learn but it is there nevertheless. The things sapphira says about reacting to her ex ring a bell. I have been doing this all my life reacting to people and then not being proud of my reaction and letting them wipe my nose in it for ever. We all have buttons and it is our responsibility not to let others push them and control what happens when they do.
The narcissist knows this absolutely and has no sense of morals so he/she keeps pushing until you self destruct. For instance my son and I had an argument before and I told him to leave. he did not leave but kept bringing it up time and time again....even though he knew it was the heat of the argument and he had been behaving very badly himself and he used it as broom to beat with me with. I now understand we can say things in an argument and not mean them but just want to hurt or make the other person understand how upset we are. The next day we can feel very different and want to apologise. This is normal. If the other person refuses to accept our apology that is their right but it can also show an element of game playing. If they cooly and calmly refuse to communicate and plan to mess with your head. As parents we forgive our children many times as we love them. But being a parent also means standing up to them if they are stepping over the line. Many parents find this hard. Me included. There are so many terrible things happening with young people getting stabbed and evil deeds being committed. It saddens me to think of all the anger and pain people have repressed inside and how that can finally spill over into murder and destruction. But the positive I find to all this is that I refuse to give in to negative people and feelings. Finding a calm and happy place is a small gift I can give to myself and those I let in will be the ones I trust. It is my birthday today....42 and feeling 22! As the worry drops away so do the years!!!!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 07/06/08 02:41 PM

Hello damaskrose,
First I have to apologize for not responding much sooner to your postings like I promised to do. I am still not really well, ( doing much better though) and am like a bugget with a hole in it as we say it in dutch.. I just don't remember all I have to do.
I thin it is the right thing to do, this move I mean. It doesn't seem like a nice place where you live now..Terrible to hear those sirenes all the time and bad for the children I can imagine.
Maybe you told before, but how old is this son of you???
I have two sons, one is the psychopath and 26 years and the other is 18 years. The youngest one is a wonder!!! He is studying to become a psychiatric nurse and believe it or not, he wants to work with children like his brother in the furture......well nobody can tell him he doesn't know what he will be in to!!!
I read all your postings and I admire the way you handle things. it is not easy to survive all this and keep a clear mind about it all. It seems to me you can see objectivly at your own behavior and motives and that is very rare!!
This process is hard and takes time. Be patient and you will see things will change graduatly.... and only for the good. It is like forinstance the bible says; You plant seeds now for the future and in time you will harvest the best you did.....That means for now there is work to do.Hard work... this is no easy thing...but it will take some time to see what you planted...But believe me; it will certainly be worth the effort you are doing.....
Moving to a more relaxed place will certaily be a benefit for you and your family.
When will you be moving?
Love Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 07/06/08 03:56 PM

Hi Damaskrose,
happy birthday to you....Happy birthday to you.... happy birthday dear damaskrose , happy birthday to you....
Congretulations with your birthday and may it be one that starts a whole new chapter in your life!!!!!

I know it so well.. the excuses we all find for others...and not for ourselves. grgr this is a universal female habit I am afraid!!!!
You question your abillity to sense people..Please don't because you can and do!! It
's not the sensing that is is explaining what you sense that probably is off....
This being wrong..( wrong is not the correct word I want to use but the only one in english I can think about... Sapphira will do a much better job in telling it in the right way!!!)
This being wrong is natural... we are born with excuses for everything and everybody. But we don't seem able to do so for ourself.. We are tuff judges if it comes to our own acts and no excuses there!!!
The first thing you feel when meeting people is always true....always? yeah, always!!!!
Thinking back in time you will see it for yourself. Remember when you first met the new neighbour when you moved into the house you lived in all those years...You didn't like her did you... But she came over ohh so nice.... till the day she betrayed you... and spread gossip around!!! The first feeling was right!!!( just giving an example!!)
You will learn to trust on these intuitive feelings again but take time to get to know them and then you will see these feelings will help you a lot.
The thing you told about the son who was rubbing your nose in things that concern you is so vey treu... He can do that only because you let him get to your emotions.....If you could prevent that he is harmless....
I think it is also the parents responsabillity to show their kids that there are choices to make. Why should a child stand up for him/herself if not lived by the parents.. this comes out the wrong way again..I try once more; When the mother and father take care of themselves the child will learn that it is oke to look after him/herself.. If the parents don't then the child will think it is wrong to do so.

If we do something wrong in the eyes of others it doesn't mean we are wrong....It only means they have a different point of view and who is to say that is the right one? If we agree it is wrong we can apologize and that is it!! If they don't accept that it is there choice but not something to hold against the one who apologized, is it!!!
Being angry for such a long time, keeping hate alive is a choice people can make. They could also choose to throw that hate away and start living a nice life. So don't feel too sorry..You are not living in hate are you, and thinking the way such people do you would have every right to do so!....
hate is just ruining your own live, so good for you to step over it and start again..
have a happy birthday and feel young!!!
Love Segaya
Posted by: Damaskrose

Re: General Discussi - 07/07/08 04:24 PM

Your words are kind thank you Segaya. You are right we forgive others but are so hard on ourselves. My counsellor said this too. I beat myself up because I did not tell my mother I loved her enough and then she died. It was too late and I realise I was so angry at myself for not being a better daughter. Quite forgetting she had been a terrible mother in parts! My oldest son who is a treasure said just ignore the younger son who has been giving me such trouble. Such good advice because when I did he suddenly wanted to talk! Sometimes a taste of their own medicine is good. You are also right about our initial sense of others. Once I saw this woman walking down the road and I thought oh I wouldnt want to be on the bad side of her. It was a strong sense of evil. Later on we became friendly and I pushed these thoughts aside thinking it was better to give her a chance. Well of course she was evil and a very nasty person and I found out later. If only I had trusted my first feeling. I wont tell the whole story but it involved her doing and saying all kind of stuff and blaming it on me. {one tale she told me was of ringing a social worker about one of her friends because she did not like this woman and she told them she thought the woman's little girl was being sexually abused!} I know this to be true as the woman and I later became friends and she confirmed some details.
Some other friend used to laugh oddly almost too much at things I said and I would catch her looking strangely at me sometimes. Couldn't put my finger on it but just had moments when I thought she didn't sound right! She also turned out to be a nasty character but on the surface friendly and flattering! I have got on the wrong sides of these people mainly because I see the bad side and withdraw and they then have to do stuff to slander or turn others against me. I see now the wisest way is not to let them see you know their true colour. I find it hard to pretend though but will have to learn in order to protect myself. And coming up against these false people is what causes my depression so I learned some time ago to put myself first. I go for a day out on my own or buy a small item or go swimming anything nice to make up for a bad thought directed at me. If I feel good like you say then my children will learn to look after themselves too.

This year will be busy and it will be good for me to focus on new friends and new experiences. I have always wanted to live in the countryside and near the sea so although it will be difficult for the younger ones to change school etc I think it will be good for all of us long term. We move in the summer so they can start at a new school in september. I think the thing that was depressing me most was the fact that I was trapped here with all the manipulation and social bullying that was instigated by my own child. She has done me a favour because it has pushed me to really look at what has been going on and understand how serious it is. i think as parents we let our children off too much. We allow our love for them to cloud our eyes to the bad they do. It is not love to let them get their own way I see this now. Someone has to be the adult.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 07/08/08 06:06 PM

HI Damaskrose,
There is a smile on my face because of the advise you nice son gave you considering the othr son... He is so right !!!! My youngest son is like that, so I know how it feels!!!!
it akes me think of an exercise I sometimes do with people I help;
Do you know how to dance????
If you are the dancing position and your partner steps backward, you have to go foreward!!! This is simmilar with relationships... If one is making up the rules..or seems to make is up to you to follow them... So going back to the dance that means that the dance can go on as long as you two keep dancing together....But what if you step backwards.... ot of the times you will se the othe rprsonwill follow..... or not..and if not than obviously he/she disided on their own not to dace anymore..( have a nice relationship...
So in a really nice dance ( relationship) sometimes one is going to lead and other times the other person is going to lead...Their is always one who leads and one who follows, to be in balans it will shift.... This is not so in the relation with children and their parents..That is depending on age also ...But you as a parent are always in charge as long as the child is in your home..So take the lead again!!! You can do it you seem wise enough to do so...
You willlearn to trust your own feelings of intuition again , they are there and they are there for a purpose... nd you just have to get to interper them in the right way ..without finding excuses for everybody.. I fnecessary people can come up with their own, you can save you energy for your own love and children, no need to bother with others I think at least for the mean time...
You are a brave woman to be wanting and willing to see what lives lessons have for you... Indeed we teach our children and they teach us.. and not all we have to learn is very nice..( ahummmm)
I have to get some sleep now but will write to you soon.
Love Segaya
Posted by: Damaskrose

Re: General Discussi - 07/09/08 03:57 AM

Segaya that is a nice visualisation of it being like a dance. I will use it. It hurts of course but am concentrating on the children who need me and this will change as their needs change I guess. I do not like game playing and so I guess this is my weak spot as others use it to upset me. Sometimes we spend so much energy on those others who are upsetting us we forget to focus on the ones who are not! Love is not always demanding attention I guess it is also quiet and constant and patient. It is raining so much today and now i have to go out and cycle up my daughters school again as she has forgotten her swim kit! Byee damask
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 07/09/08 10:48 AM

Hello Damaskrose

You seem to be having a period of self crticism and turmoil. You don't need to be so hard on yourself for doing what you felt was right at the time. If you loved your mother then that feeling existed whether you told her or not. Love is a feeling and doesn't have to be spoken, only felt. Is is just guilt that makes you feel so bad about this and not regret that your really missed the opportunity to tell her your true feelings for her? What a dilemma feeling you have to tell someone you love them when maybe they haven't earned it, I have never believed love is unconditional apart from maybe a mother/father and baby.

I wonder why you feel you have to be available for these people who do not treat you with the respect you deserve. I wouldn't call them friends, a friend is someone who wants the best for you and contributes to the relationship. When you are suffering from depression it is even harder to to look after your own wellbeing but you are right to put yourself first.

Your move to the countryside will be a perfect opportunity for a fresh start and leave these people behind. Take time to decide whether you want to be freinds with next people you meet, I really hope you meet some decent,caring people who will give you genuine friendship. I feel quite excited for you thinking about how you can make the life you choose when you are aomewhere new, what a chance for change?

Posted by: Damaskrose

Re: General Discussi - 07/10/08 12:29 PM

Segaya and Jan Thank you for the kind words. It means a lot to me to have advice that is neutral and heartfelt. I am on a voyage of discovery due to counselling which brings other stuff up!
As is the case in life many things happen at once or one after another leading one to feel a bit threatened and esp with people in my life not being open and honest it then leads me to question how so much can go wrong for me! But I have learned that I am thin skinned and I do seem to attract others who try to manipulate me. I have learned so much this last year however and am not overly worried about having friends at this moment in time. I realise that there is my own part in this of telling too much too soon about myself and being too accepting of those who it is best to steer away from as they have their own stuff going on. I am letting go of guilt I promise!!!!
My second oldest son is at the selfish stage and that is fine. I can love him and let him grow and mature learning his own lessons. My fear was he was going to reject me as my daughter did but as my other son told me he is very different and I must not over react to normal teen angst. He gave same advice to stand back and wait. Sure enough who comes round to dinner yesterday- second son and HE is talking a bit more! Remember how we felt at 19... so invincible and frustrated and in a rush to achieve. Our mothers were just like on the periphery of our vision and life was all about us.
I read a quote in a book...At a certain age you earn the right to ruin your own life..... so am thinking whilst we wish to protect and guide we have to learn when to step aside and let them fly.
Having had one disturbed child in family I tend to stress that I can see problems with the others. But funnily enough that will also help as if I see issues coming on I will not hesitate to ask for help and get them into counseling etc.

I find this zen passage useful in trying to let go....'Two monks were once traveling together down a muddy road. A heavy rain was falling. Coming around the bend, they met a lovely girl in a silk kimono and sash, unable to cross the intersection.

"Come on, girl," said the first monk. Lifting her in his arms, he carried her over the mud.

The second monk did not speak again until that night when they reached a lodging temple. Then he no longer could restrain himself. "We monks don't go near females," he said. "It is dangerous. Why did you do that?"

"I left the girl there," the first monk said. "Are you still carrying her?"'

Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 07/15/08 10:38 AM

Segaya, Sapphira, and Jan...

Hi. Here I am. I don't even know what to write, but I guess I should just write extemporaneously. I've missed you all so much, but I was unable to write or even read the board. Some very strange things have been happening. I've thought of you constantly and drew strength from knowing you were out there for me. Did I say how much I missed you?

I'm still not at the point where it is easy to write, but I'll try. I'm very hesitant to do it. Did you ever start to say something or realize something very important, and that'sthe thing that flies out of your head? I'm afraid if I start, that will happen, so I'm getting my apologies out of the way first.

I don't even know where to start. Back in May I went into a deep deep depression, combined with the pressure to self-damage. It got very bad, to the point of being dangerous. I basically had to disappear, because some things were changing inside me. I knew it was important and I had to disappear to let it happen, because it had to run its course and it wasn't safe to interrupt it or influence it. It was so hard and painful to stay here in these three rooms, day after day, with no distractions or hope or anything positive, feeling this happening. Lord Crown hasn't been well either, so that is an additional torment.

We were doing spring cleaning on the holiday weekend and it suddenly came back to me all the lonely isolated times I've spent on weekends, special events, and holidays. The memories were powerful and infuriating and raw. Then when I was cleaning out the attic, I thought about getting rid of some things I don't use or wear. I saw some things that I've been hanging onto for years, because "I should" or so-and-so gave it to me, etc. But there were bad memories attached to those things. I wanted to smash them. I came down and told Lord Crown and he said, "just get rid of them". So I started. After the first run, I went back and saw more things in the same way. So they went too. (He cleverly said "just handle them once", popped them into boxes and they were gone within hours.) This just kept spreading out until I had gone through practically everything I own. After they were gone, I felt an enormous relief that I would never have to see those things again. I felt like I had cleaned out part of my sad life, although the damage and memories remain.

This next part is hard to explain. The anger over the memories of neglect made me want to "be in the picture", to exist, to matter. And I realized that I had no feelings of that at all. I never felt it, didn't even know it was missing. So every decision I have made since then has been geared that I am in the picture. That it does something for me. Even when we did the finances, I felt it, and I found that I was thinking of different decisions to make that would have a positive and helpful effect for me. The strange part is that suddenly choices are occurring to me that would never have occurred to me without that feeling. I had never even considered things that would have helped me, because I never felt that. The automatic "I can't do that" is being broken up. This is breaking up the tortured rigid thinking that never allowed anything for me to be in consideration. Plus, when I had a glitch in the plan, instead of running right back to the old habit, I made sure that the correction I made benefited me. Unheard of! It's feeling for the first time that somewhere it has to matter what happens to me.

By making the "get-rid-of" decision, I put myself in the picture and it has spread out to other areas. The unthinkable became possible, and that opened up other choices that I would not have had. It enabled me to matter instead of going blindly on not doing anything for myself. And I'm not talking about shopping or vacations...I'm talking about food and shelter and care.

As to my family, they are still selfish and uncaring and indifferent. But after the above, a strange thing happened. I am "uninvited" to an event I want to go to with Mom because I can't drive her. I re-injured the ankle I broke a year ago and am back in a cast and unable to drive. I found out that she and my Psychopath brother were going to let me try to drive the car and never told me that they had already decided he was taking her and I wasn't going. The first strange thing is that I knew. I knew if she didn't need me to drive, I wouldn't be invited. And I knew I shouldn't even try to drive. So I didn't bother. When I went over and told her I couldn't drive her, she told me Psychopath was already taking her and I was uninvited. They never bothered to tell me, so that I wouldn't test the driving and risk further injury or wreck the car. While she was talking, I sat there and watched her, and I felt no pain, no rejection, no confusion that I had done something wrong, no hurt. I just felt anger and contempt. Lord Crown was there, watching silently, and was concerned that I was being hurt and rejected again, and letting me handle it.

Here's the second strange thing, but most important. They were hurting and rejecting me again, and taking away my right to exist, to be considered, to matter. And while I sat there listening to her, I thought, "I'm going to equalize everything you take away from me." For the first time in my life, I felt a sense of power for regaining balance, restoring the equilibrium, putting back what they attempt to suck away. I've been sucked dry and empty my whole life, and there was never anything given back to me to help. It's an acknowledgment of feeling what I, clothing, shelter...and should have to exist. I've never felt a sense of power before in my life. So now when I make a decision, whether it's driving or savings or anything, especially anything to do with them, it's going to be based on what I need to be stable and whole. I understand that most people are taught to feel that way, but I was deliberately taught the sacrifice and go without and not demand or even expect to have feelings about myself. No wonder I've made the decisions I have...I never even existed. I am horrified to realize all the actions and decisions I made where there was no feeling about myself at all. No wonder I'm the way I am, no wonder I think the way I do. The worst part is knowing now that it never even occurred to me. I quite simply had no such feeling of being. I thank God again, as I do every day, for Lord Crown. Even without having always been in love with him since we met, look at what he has had to try to work against, to teach me, to protect me, to have me feel. He's very proud of me for this, and is so happy that I am actually feeling it.

I have to end this now, as writing it has exhausted me, plus my ankle is killing me and the ice is melting. My pinky friends, do forgive me for having disappeared. I wanted to connect with you but I couldn't even read the board. I'm still very shaky and tired, as these changes are taking a lot out of me, and everything is a huge effort, but I feel I'm on the right track. I'm sorry I haven't been able to check in on you, and know what's going on. Now that I've done this, hopefully I can come back later and read back the posts and see how you all are. Know that I've thought of you and "leaned' on you, and am hoping you are all doing well.

With great pinky love,

Lady Crown
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 07/15/08 02:31 PM

Dear dear dear pinky girlfriend!!!!
My heart jumped when I saw your name again on the forumlist. I can't begin to express what a joy that gave me.
I am so sorry you ha dsuch a hard time and I want to sit on it for a while before really say anything about it.. I wondered why you dind't return and thought maybe that your computer has crashed..I think to keep me from being too worried
The things you are telling are so very hard and I am agian so very happy you have Lord Crown to support you in all of this. No matter what went wrong..This is choosing him to be your partner you did so very well!!!
I didn't stop thinking of you and am glad that one way or another we ment something for you during this ordeal you are going through.
I just want to say for now; Welcome back, I love to hear more from you and I will come back to your postings after I had a good thought about it. For your message surprised me a was unexpected I mean!!!
I wish you could see in my heart....
Pinky hugs and love Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 07/15/08 04:42 PM

Hello Lady Crown

I'm so pleased to hear from you and so are all the others. We have been thinking about you and including you in our discussions so you can catch up at your leisure. I want to read your post again before I get back to you as I rushed through it in my eagerness to hear what you have been doing. I just wanted to let you know I'm glad you are back.

Till tomorrow.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 07/16/08 10:06 AM

Hello Lady Crown

I do understand how difficult it is to write sometimes, I find there are times when I just don't want to put things into words because it makes things exist whereas before they were just thoughts and feelings.
Please donít feel you donít have to write anything if you are not ready, as you can see from the reaction to your post everyone was pleased and relieved to hear from you whether they replied or not.

Did you get any medication for the depression, that is severe depression and not something you can control? It must have been terrible to suffer like that and feel you had to retreat to go through it. I do feel so sorry that there was nothing that could be done to help you. You must have felt so alone.

I hope Lord Crown is better, when you are suffering itís hard to give others the attention they need. He is a wonderful support and so wise, he must know you so well to be able to tell you what you need to hear. Clearing out the attic was very symbolic and I wish I could do that, every time I try I put things back to deal with them another day but I donít know when that will be.
Phoenix from the ashesÖ.the trauma you are going through sounds like going through a painful birth process or more a rebirth into a completely new life. You can now see the old one for what it was and you have done the physical throwing away of things that tie you to that life. The new life can be what you make it, a whole new way of doing thingsÖyour way, you get to make the choices and you have LC to validate your expectations.

When you say you felt nothing when you were with your family, that is such a positive reaction. Hate or anger mean you are still tied into these people but now you are an objective observer.

I feel you have turned a corner and I will look forward to hearing your progress.
Please donít apolgise for not keeping in touch on the forum, we all knew that you would come back when you were ready. We were concerned about you and we were all wishing you well.

Sorry to hear you have an injury but maybe that will give you a legitimate excuse to take some time out for yourself.

Look after yourself and know we will always be here for you.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 07/16/08 01:09 PM

Dear lady Crown,
here I am.. thought about your posting...Like Jan I was so happy to see your name here again that I rushed through the things you wrote to see as quickly as possible how you are doing.
there are so many things you write again that are so very familiar to me.....Ithink the same thing or something very similar happend to me when I was around 23 or 24... I went to visit mymother..entered...stayed about 15 minutes and was crying in the car afterwards...I cried for weeks because of being afraid what this visit would do to me..Again going through all those feelings made me real scared...At the time of that last visit I didn't see her for I think around 3 or 4 years, as an attempt not to give her a change to hurt me again....And now I did it anyway..I went and i was so very afraid of what would happen...
And nothing did!!
After 2 months (??!!!!) I realized that nothing wrong was coming from that visit... Then, oww how we are played in the past!!, I felt guilty of not feeling anything at all..Thought of myself as a very coldhearted person not to give anything about who she was or if she would be happy or healthy and so on....Nothing... And that was even scarier to me.... nothing...what is nothing...
Later I understood the smae thing jan is saying to feling si good...Not distant or cold, warm,love, guilt...nothing..The strings that bound you are gone..You are free...
Looking back on that time I know for me that was the turning point in my life...Now I could start dicovering who I am and what I think about things with no concern about her and the family... just free and me....What did I want , what did I want my future to be....All thse questions ..and also very scary...
I remember that nothing felt real, I didn't know the first things to existing. Had to re- discover everything and thank god I had a friend who I could ask every stupid and silly question I could come up with. What would I have become when she wouldn't be there at that time in my live.

So Lord Crown...; Thank you for being there for my dear friend. Thank you for being patient and thinking in the right direction to help and guide, Thank you for knowing who your wife is and giving her what she needs....

It is such a great relieve knowing that you are not alone dear Lady Crown for the feeling of being alone must be there.

Take time for this partis hard and it will be a struggle, but I can asure you again.. it will pass and the time spent on it is very well spent and the benefit you will have in the rest of your live will be great... But this is not easy at all...

I didn't do though, what you did so very bravely...I just thrown it all away without even looking at it... What was left was burned when my house burned down years later. It has to be so hard but also part of the process to let it all go through your hands again and really remember every bad moment that is attached to them...
Starting to realize also that you are indeed a person, and that you as a person can make your own choices...strainge isn't it...and so hard to do at first..But again you will see; in some time to come in the very near future there will be teh situation that you will have a smile on your face and see others make 'their' choice and know it isn't theirs at all...The way you will learn to make choices now is so unique.... Everybody else makes choices automatically ,but not us!!! We will always know exactly why and how the choices are made and will do it in concieusness throughout. And take it fromme ... all around you will benefit from that, but mostly you yourself and Lord Crown!!

Please don't appologize for being thatbuzy whit straighten up your live. We all are thinking of you all the time and knew you had a good reason not to post. I made myself think that your computer was crashed for reasuring myself but in my heart I knew that wasn't what was going on....
Posting or not, we are thinking of you and even did write to you and include you in discussions on the forum..
I had a very hard time a coplle of weeks ago and you all were there with me..eventhough you weren't posting at the time.. The same goes for you and I hope you know that... We are just here and wait till you are ready on your time and terms...

I do hope you come back to us soon, but will understand if you can't,so dear lady crown take time.. and confidence ...
Love and hugs,all in very pinky colors!!
Posted by: Sapphira

Re: General Discussi - 07/22/08 01:35 PM

Dear Lady Crown,

It is wonderful to hear from you, and to learn of all you have achieved. Yes, it all makes sense. Such sense. And it truly is a tremendous accomplishment to get yourself in your own picture as you have. As I read through your post I had inside a very big smile, a long way inside. Because that's where your words meet recognition in me. Right 'en el fondo' as we say. In the heart. Of course there was recogition but I wasn't sure how to respond, so I have taken my time, and in re-reading your post several times I found, in your last words, the way.

You mentioned ice melting. I used to have a recurring dream, that came in two forms. In one there was a house, a big house, three big rooms, one on each level. And filling up this entire house was a huge rock. It had broken through all three stories and was pressed hard up against the sides and roof and floor of the building. This was my house. My self. There was nothing in it except this huge rock taking up all my space. In the other version of the recurring dream there was a room, my room, filled in exacty the same way, wall to wall, roof to floor, with a gigantic piece of ice. A rock of ice. Again, it consumed all my space. It filled up all I thought I was.

These two dreams came to me repeatedy over the years. At first it was very shocking. My house my self, filled with cold hard rock and ice. What am I? It didn't bode well. Over time I found myself in another version of it, actually picking away at the rock in the house with a very small object, I can't recall what. But totally overwhelmed by a seemingly impossible task. And with the ice, I'd obviously wished it woud melt and give me some space and in one dream it did in fact start melting. Thing was, this was my room/my life and I had no way to get out and was near drowning in it all.

These dreams were extremely disturbing to me. First because they truly reflected the cold, hard reality of my life, and lack of a sense of myself. Secondly, because getting out of the house/room/space I was in seemed a virtual impossibility. And third, I didn't really understand what these imgaes were fundamentally reflecting. I thought the ice rock and stone rock were me, because I did realise that these dreams were certainly about 'me'.

Now I understand and have come to peace with these dreams. For me they were about what it means to have been born into a psychopathic family. We are born with our parents' cold, hard narcissim inside ourselves, where only we are supposed to be. Right from day one they were inside our spaces. Anyone who comes from a non-psychopathic family and has a normal self possession will really notice if someone comes along and tries to implant themselves in their space - if someone tries to narcissistically swamp who they are. They will fight and resist because they know this is not how things are meant to be. But because we have never known any different we take the stones within us as being who we are, not realising for a very long time that actually the hard core of someone else's self is not meant to be in our space. We are invaded and taken over before we even have a chance to know what is what. These people don't have a house to store their rocks, and they take over ours. So how, please tell me, just how is she who has never known any better, to realise the stone ought not be there, how is she to survive the panic of realising she in in such a state, and then how is she to finally get rid of it? Without giong insane with terror or beserk with understandable rage? What a monumental task to ask of her. What an outstanding achievement to accomplish first the recognition, then to maintain the self possession and not flee mentally, and then the capacity and endurance to eject the imposter. And then, then, there is the whole reconceptualisation of who she is, after she has removed the stone. Sure it had to go, but it was all she ever knew. First she thought she was this stone/house. Then she separates some and realises no the stone is not her, the house is. But what is she now - a hole? A shell? She is still in shock. A house needs filling. But she isn't up to choosing furniture and making curtains and getting ready to live. After a life of never knowing what it means to make a choice for herself, suddenly there are too many to make. That's another journey completely. It's taken her half her life to simply reclaim what she was entitled to from the day she was born - but did not have. The right to her own Self.

So when I hear of you throwing out all the old and painful, I cheer to myself, and I am deeply moved for you, because this is about fundamental issues. Of course you feel it is critical, and you know you need to carefully guard this work. Because it is critical. How can you have a sense of your own 'house' when it's filled to the brim with the effects, the ice stones, the clutter of other people's hurtfulness? You are making space for you! You are making space for you. You are pushing against the ice and saying 'make way'. I won't be pushed aside by other people's agendas and desires. You are demanding space for yourself in your own life. It is a true revolution. Families like ours prefer to keep us blindfolded. Lord Crown has helped you see that this is your right.It only takes seeing once to know. And then guarding that vision from those who would try to have us doubt it. So of course, it is a risk to say just what is going on. You are a survivor and you know the strategies required and are acting with grace in and for your own life.

Lady Crown, you are shining!



Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 07/22/08 09:08 PM

Hi, everyone, no time to write, haven't even been able to read back. Unexpected minor surgery at ER for Lord Crown, more surgery on second visit, dead car battery on way home from hospital! Absolute craziness, non-stop, the last thing we need! Taking him to surgeon again tomorrow, me to foot surgeon on Friday, and non-stop abuse from family throughout. Just wanted to leave a quick note that I'm here and trying to find a moment to read back and check in with you all. Hope you are all doing well, and I'll try to be back soon. Love and pinky hugs, Lady Crown
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 07/23/08 04:55 PM

Dear Lady Crown.
Thank you for telling us.. I hope nothing real serious is wrong with both of you. Will this coming surgery for your foot be the last one? Sees like things getwrong all at one time. We think of you and hope it will help a bit..Your not alone, even though it might look that way!!!!
Pinky hugs ( a lot!!!)
and lots of love Segaya
Posted by: Godsgrace

Re: General Discussi - 07/23/08 05:03 PM


when I read this it reminded me of something. My Psychopath was a minister as we all know, but when I finally confronted him about some of his terrible lies and secrets, I truly believe he was planning to hurt me. I dont know how any one can tell if the Psychopath that they are dealing with will do something like that but I would leave it to your gutt feelings, because if you suspect it expect it and do what you can to protect yourself...I chose to do the play along game until I could get far enough away from him giving him the im,pression that I would stay gone so that he wouldnt be able to find me. You can never really tell with a Psychopath whats goin on in their mind. Just be careful
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 07/23/08 05:19 PM

Hi Damaskrose,
Sorry I didn't answer your posting earlier, I just am feeling off the last copple of days and can't concentrate very well...I wanted to answer you before and even thought I did!! How stupid is that.....So sorry for that.

Indeed there are times, and often those times sem to last for a very long time, that everything seems to turn against us. But time is a blessing too, for it goes by and then there will be other times. In the mean time, when things seems to go that wrong we are learning and we will change because of the the changes will be for the good mostly.
It will tak time again to see what came from it but with open eyes we will see the progress very clearly. Remember what i always say abot the seeds that we are planting? Well you are planting now ... so take time and be patient for things are changing!!

'On a cetain age you have the right to ruin your own live'... Ohh that one made me think..I will use that sentence when people think they can attack me about my oldest son!! thank you !!!!
I recognize what you say about the other children to do wrong and be on guard....
ppfff My youngest son had to tell me over and over again hat he wasn't my oldest son and I could relax!!! I felt so ashamed and guilty for thinking all those things about him..He is clearly and obviously not his brother!!! Far from it.. He is in everything totally the opposite!
My oldest son is also a narcisist and always makes everything he does, bigger,nicer, welll you get the picture don't you... So when my 9 year olsd youngest son came hoemafter a socker match and told me he scored 9 times. I said; 'o'yeah...well..nice...
And then he looked at me and said;'no mam, I am not my brother; I DID make does goals ...Isn't that terrible!!

So beware of that kind of behavior towards the other children please, for they can't help it and they have their own teenyears to go through....
I use to say 'the wrong child aducated me as a mother....' I mean with this that I learned to be always on guard, suspicious, always looking for a hidden agenda and double standarts, always hide money and valueable things,always check and check again after coming home again and my oldest son had been home alone...Everyday checking his room for firetools;lighters, matches,but also knives and drugs so on...
I never even once engaged my youngest son on a ly and still I treated him in the beginning the only way I knew how to be a mother.... Well my youngest one is very nice and pure and understood from very small on what was going on.. So he just was patient and every time pointed out he was normal...and just somebody else..happely I am a fast learner so this didn't take long for me..But I felt every time I did the wrong thing was once too much.
Where do you get all these interesting quotes from?

Love Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Missed posts - 07/24/08 01:24 AM

Hello everyone

I must apologise if I have missed anyone's posts, I seem to have a problem seeing some of them and it's only when I see a reply from another member that I know there has been one. I can then follow the thread back and see it.

So sorry if anyone was expecting a reply and didn't receive one. I don't know whether this only happens to me because of the way my new laptop views posts or if it has anything to do with how replies are sent.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 07/25/08 05:42 PM

Dear Lady Crown,
How was your day? Are you in pain because of the operation? And how is Lord Crown after his surgery?
I hope you are well enough soon to come and tell us..
I...and I have to say WE, are thinking of you and keep our fingers crossed for you to be well soon!
hugs and lots of pinky love
Posted by: Damaskrose

Re: General Discussi - 07/26/08 03:27 PM

hi segaya Thanks for the reply. I post when I can and appreciate any feedback. I am very aware that all my children are different and we can project onto them experiences we have had with others and the same with any relationships I guess. In recovery from relationships with psychopaths or those with these kind of issues we will be suffering from stress and trauma. So I am careful not to jump to conclusions but I think we push our gut responses down too much. We read daily of terrible atrocities committed by other human beings but find it hard to realize that the humans close to us are equally capable of the same and different acts. I read and study widely now and am open to belief in something if it is explained rationally. I am sad to say though my wide eyed innocent trust has taking a knocking. Sad news today of a friend who died of a heroin overdose after years of manipulation and pain from her partner she was unable to break free and enjoy her life. Instead caught in his warped world she suffered and ultimately paid the final price. What a terrible thing to see this beautiful woman with five boys die this way. And to watch her lose her life piece by piece. The lesson to us all is to dance like there is no one watching and move away from those who make us cry. Thank you again everyone who replies without your help I would not have been able to see my problems clearly and to have faith in my own sanity!

Oh and two friends have come back from the dark side so to speak. They have come to me separately and apologized and explained issues they have been involved with my daughter and it is a relief to me to know I was not imagining things. It does not seem so important anymore to find out what is going on. The only thing that matters is I am not going mad and have done everything I can to protect myself. I think the truth will come out slowly without any help from me and I can just relax and enjoy my life. There is life after a psychopath!
Posted by: Damaskrose

Re: General Discussi - 07/26/08 03:37 PM

Godsgrace yes they are everywhere sadly Psychopaths or those in training. My son told me once of a sunday school teacher who made comment that he probably had a different father that his brothers and sister and that parents do not always tell the truth. He was eleven at the time and found this strange but never told me till years later. I was shocked and he laughed and said he had not let it upset him as he knew it was nonsense. This comment stemmed from the fact that he was a lot lighter in colour than his siblings! What a terrible thing to say to a child and what on earth must this man have been thinking? He did not know me or my family and was not in a position to make such a statement. It makes me wonder how much trust we put in teachers and ministers etc with the care of our children. We often do not know if they are vetted properly and imagine the emotional damage this could have done to a less secure child?
Posted by: Godsgrace

Re: General Discussi - 07/26/08 07:48 PM


I had a teacher at a christian school when I was a child, and she was actually racist! I was the only black kid there and I endured the comments and insults for four long years and finally my mom withdrew me. But I was always afraid of churches as I got older because of the negative experiences I had as a young child. So when I finally get bold and try church on my own, yet again I was badly burned. I Love God though, and I trust him fully because all of these experiences have strengthened me so much. My husband is white and I am black and we have four mixed kids together, and the sinister minister is black and we had the one child together. So my little baby is darker than the other kids and we love him like we love them and it makes no difference to us, he really is representation of drastic change in our lives...when I became pregnant with him I started thinking more clearly and I knew I couldnt allow my sweet lil boy to be tramatized by his real dad. I wouldnt let him hurt my baby...half his or not.

I truly believe that that tiny little Psychopathic church, will be falling apart soon. They are down to like 10 members and the truth about them and thier evil little agenda is being exposed. Its scary that these people can have such a negative effect on peoples lives. But God promises that what the devil intends for evil God will turn it around for our Good...basically promising that we will have the victory as we put our trust in him!

Damaskrose, I am gonna read your blogs so I know more about you, sounds like we have a few things in common! God Bless You!
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 08/19/08 03:38 PM

Dear, Segaya, Sapphira, and Jan, and hi, new members!

I have missed you all so much, but things are starting to turn around a little for me. Unfortunately, I am back in a plaster cast, splint, cane, and forbidden to be on my foot. Lord Crown's hand seems to be all better, but we are still being careful with it.

My family is getting steadily worse. Right before I hurt my ankle I invited my Narcissist brother to come to a local history slideshow with me. I asked them three times, and he never answered me. I went to the show by myself, and to make a long story short, part of the show was about something I knew very well. So I got up and started addressing the attendees. The historian who was putting on the show and I talked for a long time afterwards, and he is very interested in the research I have, and wants to see it. Lord Crown was so proud of me and said I was very brave. You all know how afraid I am of people and being seen, etc., yet I knew the subject so well and couldn't stop myself. It turns out that my neighbors from childhood were in the audience, and we talked afterwards. They were always very kind to me. The other day, their daughter stopped by my mother's house to see me, and my N brother left her standing alone on the walkway and drove away. She had mentioned the slideshow and my research, and I get a call from my mother asking why I didn't tell her about the show, and she would have gone, etc. I told her I had invited them three times and she just blew me off.

The historian is interested in the pictures I "have" from, yes, the albums! He said there are no pictures of that, and I raised my hand and said, "I have some". He was stunned. Apparently there are none in existence except mine, can you believe that?! He has actually suggested I do a historical show with the pictures. I never mentioned this to my family, because the album would disappear in a second. I don't know what to do. And no-one bothered to ask how the show was, until my neighbor appeared.

I had a huge fight with my Psychopath sister, because she took me to the foot surgeon. On the way home she started questioning me about Mom, and N brother, and the pictures, and everything. I decided to just let her have it, and told her exactly how I felt about it all, and what was wrong with it: dirty house, hiding things, stalling, lies, etc. No matter what I told her, her response was something that had nothing to do with what I had just said. Here's an example:

Me:"the washing machine exploded, we were robbed, my ankle is killing me, I can't drive or shop or cook."

Psychopath:"I didn't know you knew how to do laundry".

Then she calls me four hours later to tell me how wrong what I said was and how I shouldn't feel entitled to anything. It was working her over for her to call me. It was so bad that I actually wrote out a transcript for my psychiatrist to see. He read it the next day and said, "I can't even understand this. Everything you are telling her, she answers with something that doesn't make any sense."

Here's the worst part. I was doing research and I found some online pictures. One of them was of a mattress. I don't even want to write this. It was from a mental institution, and when I needed a new mattress at around age 13, that's what I got. I have to assume it was clean and unused. It weighed about 70 lbs and I couldn't turn it or make the bed easily. When I saw the picture (someone had broken into the institution and took pictures), I recognized it instantly by the handles, and it all came flooding back. Lord Crown was so horrified, he printed the picture and brought it to my psychiatrist. I cried through the whole session, and I am not known for crying in front of anyone. My psychiatrist was close to speechless.

This is it. I'm just putting in the link, because it's very upsetting, so if you don't want to look, don't click on it. I don't want to upset anyone.

And strangely, I seem to be getting a little better. How can this be? I'm less upset by them, and more contemptuous of them. I am actually going to join a camera club in the fall, and I'm very excited about it, and I entered a photo contest. I seem to be putting myself first, and of course, Lord Crown, and the difference seems to be that I can see what they are doing, and how sick it is. The more I remember, the more I feel. And I don't want to be friendless and alone and trapped in the apartment anymore. So I called the camera club. And spoke at the slideshow. I'm being all brave and I can't figure out how! I just know I want more than just sitting in the dark. I wish I could forget the mattress, but the memory is burned in. Everything seems to be flooding through me, and yet I am getting so much done.

I hope you all are doing well. Segaya, how is your health? Are you still performing? Sapphira, is your son still "away"? Jan and Dianne, I hope you both are well. I promise I will be back regularly again. I thought of you all so much while I needed you, and it was so great to know you are there for me. You help make me brave, and I knew you'd be proud of me. Please write back when you can.

Much pinky love,

Lady Crown

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 08/19/08 04:23 PM

Dear Lady Crown.
So, so very happy we hear from you again. Long time no see, but with good reasons!!!!
Reading all about your progression made my heart grow so proud!! ihihih this is the way!!!
Talking in front of so many people...How in the world did you do it!!!! And without being prepaired..that is being brave on the highest level!!!
Don't tell me now i am performing with a band and singing before people because that is much easier and I know way ahead and can prepair.I am not alone for the band is with me and i just close my emotions, can hide behind other persons words of the no way it is the same!!!( and to be honest I can tell you in secret, i take a bach remedy to give me the courage to do it)
You on the other hand are doing this from your heart and unprepaired..ppff that is brave !!

And then the thing with your sister...girl what got in to you?????
whahw hoooh my heart grew almost out of my body reading that part...
I don't know exactly what happend, but go on doing what you are doing for it works!
And in the mean time prepair for telling us how you did it, for it can be such a good example for others to handle things in the future...

One proud feeling follows the other...You make me happy for not wanting to be isolated anymore. Doing the things you want to and can do so very well will make you even stronger,
it will open up your eyes more and more and doing so you will accept more who YOU are instead of what 'they' want you to be...
The locks are open now...let the flood come......

All your live you were surpressed and now you smell freedom..... go for it!!!
Lord Crown will 'walk beside his shoes' we would say..That is how proud he is because of how you are growing...
This seems to be such a different way of live for both of you... can Lord Crown keep up with all your progressions?

I opened up the link you gave us......'Funny' thing is I didn't upset me too much.When you told us in the past how and where you had to sleep , this is exactly what i had in mind. But seeing it for real did make a difference for I hoped so very much I was wrong.
It is like touching the past isn't it. It is proof of our sanity... People who did this want to hide it,say you are making it up, and you want to believe them as in a surviving mechanism..and now the proof of it all to be true si there!..And the realisation of where the matras was coming from...knowing why it was so very heavy... terrible..and you were such a young little girl..
It is 'known' that humans don't remember things correctly, most people make drama bigger and worse to somehow impress others....
This prooves again that when things are so terrible we tend to make it smaller. When finding how things really were we get a real shock to realise it all.. And beside the proof we are right, it is shaking the earth for it now is like we can touch it again.
I am glad this realisation makes you so much stronger. And it shows who you are in core.

My health is much better thank you for asking. I went to hospital today to see one of my specialists. He wants me to change some of the mediation to see if things will improve that way..We expect them to do indeed.
It has to be possible for the bone dises to improve so much that i will not have it anymore. The medicine I need is no longer available in my country but in some hidden but legal way it is, and he will see to it I will get it...
So i have my hopes up again. This will mean I will no longer break my ribs and that will improve live very much.
The band is doing well. Friday we exist for a year and from januari on we rehears new songs.( that are covers, new to us I mean) In november is our first performance and i am nervous because of it already.....(how brave is that!!!)
So almost all is well. Coming days I will write about what my son did last weekend.I am not quit ready to tell yet, but maybe I will be tomorrow...
Don't worry, it will not break my spirit, for it is not his to break!!!
So glad you are back and indeed hope you keep on writing again. No matter what, dear lady Crown...we wait for you to be with us again and in the mean time you are save in our hearts.
love and hugs Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 08/19/08 05:28 PM

Hi Lady Crown

I'm soooo pleased to see you back! I'm having a few days away and will write more tomorrow as I don't know how long this internet link will last and I really want to talk to you and don't want to lose what I write.

I feel very relieved to know that you are back to talk to us.

All my best wishes to you and Lord Crown ...till tomorrow!

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 08/20/08 03:09 AM

Hello Lady Crown

You are right Öwe are VERY proud of you!

Isnít it odd that as your family is getting worse you are getting better? Do you think they are getting worse BECAUSE you are getting better and they are losing control of you?
I see you are still being the caring person you were to invite the family out, I wonder why you would want to go out with them, wouldnít it be better to keep a distance between you then they canít hurt you any more. Do you spend much time with your family as you said an old neighbour called at their house to see you?

Iím absolutely stunned that you stood up and spoke at the meeting!!! To do that with preparation is one thing but to do it cold is amazing. You must have so much knowledge on the subject but being in front of an audience and being able to impart that knowledge ĖWOW. No wonder the album had such importance and the family obviously know this, is there any way you and Lord Crown can go and get back what is rightfully yours? If you could devise a plan to take them out of the house and he stays behind to search or maybe arrange to meet the historian at their house and while they are together boldly say you are just going to get your album that he would like to take to copy. Do you think they would be shocked that you have put them in this position in front of a stranger and let you get it?

It must have felt wonderful to have a go at your sister but as you say it meant nothing to her and I hope she didnít get any pleasure in getting you to fever pitch as that is a weapon she will try and use again. These people love to wind us up as that gives them control over our reactions. As long as nothing you said gave her any ammunition then itís empowering and maybe she will see you as becoming stronger adversary. I think we all need to discuss what happens when we Ďoutí a psychopath. I will do some research and see if there is any information but I would like to hear about what other members have experienced. My partner and I found that when we Ďoutedí his kid, he moved on to another victim so we were fortunate but itís not something I would recommend with an aggressive or violent adult.

What a good idea to take a transcript to the psychiatrist, I donít suppose many of them know what itís like trying to have a conversation with personality disordered people especially when itís family members. Crying must have brought a sense of relief to let the emotion pour out of you, there are many years of negative emotions to release. It has been proven that crying is good for us and as it releases certain hormones that make us feel better.

The photo you posted was awful and Iím not surprised it is etched in your mind and I expect it will always stay there. The only thing to do with that image is to let it come back to you every time your family try to inflict any more pain and suffering as a way of confirming your decision not to have contact with them. The farther away they are the farther away the image is. Give the image back to them in your mind, you can only see it when they are around, it is their soul you can see not a mattress. A soul that has nothing good in it. The mattress was something they inflicted on you and now they can have it back. It may sound silly Öbut as you are joining the camera clubÖwell here goes! Take a picture of your own lovely comfortable mattress, that is the image that takes the place of the old one. The new image can represent your life now and the cushioning and support you have found.

You have come on so far since you last posted, it would be good to know how you managed to move on, have you got any advice you can pass on to other members.

Iím looking forward to following your progress and send my best wishes to Lord Crown. He must be incredibly proud of seeing you emerging from the chrysalis and wondering just what an amazing a butterfly he will get.

Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 08/26/08 10:03 AM

Hi, everyone!

Thanks so much for your comments about the picture. It really helped me to hear your responses to it, although, Segaya, I understand that you were hoping you were wrong. I think you had that insight that you weren't going to be wrong. It was a relief in a way to hear the shock and horror and disgust you both expressed, although I didn't want anyone to have any extra bad feelings through me. But I got the validation from you both that is so important to me and makes me feel less alone and less at fault. Both you and Jan also said the same do the presentation without any preparation or foreknowledge. Lord Crown said that too. And I thought nothing of that, it didn't seem like anything out of the ordinary for me, but now that you all have mentioned it, I'm pretty proud of myself! More about that below...

Yes, it was good what happened with my Psychopath sister. Segaya, what specifically happened was she started asking me questions about what I would do about a house, and what I felt I deserved. I gave her honest answers and what she did, which she always does, was classic Psychopath. Answers an honest answer with a stupid or unrelated question, starts out with "but", rebukes what I say, and no matter what I say, she refutes it (black is white, etc.) I'm sure you are all familiar with this. It's a verbal destabilization that refutes what you say, argues with it, but says nothing concrete that you can pin down. If I showed her the mattress picture, she would say "I didn't know you needed a mattress". Not the horror or injustice or hurt of it. A stupid answer that denies what you are saying and makes it unimportant. It's purely motivated to deflate your position and put you in the wrong and make your position shaky by undermining your ground. This is designed to have you wonder if you are crazy. This is how Psychopath's work.

So instead of responding to what she was saying, which is pointless, and what she wants (to draw me away from the topic and into a fruitless argument) I just bashed her with every sentence. I mentioned everything that was done to me, everything she didn't want brought up, told her how stupid her answers were, and so on. But I did it all very calmly and matter-of-fact, so it was never really like a "fight". She didn't get any of her usual enjoyment out of it, instead she got torn up by me, which she can't bear. That's why she was "cooking" about it four hours later and called me to try again to destabilize me. It got to her. Which was good. So instead of upsetting and destabilizing me, she was upset and on shaky ground. Of course, we all know the Psychopath's can't stop there. They have to try to regain the control they had. So the phone call four hours later was her desperately trying to regain that control.

Now here's the part where it gets really crazy. After the presentation, I've been in touch with the historian who ran it. He is reading my report on one of the entries in his slide show, and he has contacted a gallery with some interest in me doing an exhibition of the historical pictures!! This is tremendous news for me, and something I've wanted for so long, and hopefully will move me on my way to publishing the book. It's a great honor and compliment, and so exciting, I can't even say! However, we are back to yes, the albums. I prepared a draft of the project, and went to my mother's. I showed her the report, explained the idea, and she is refusing to give me the pictures. Now, these are only pictures of local architecture and streets, a kind of then-and-now layout. No pics of the family or anything like that. She is insisting that she has to sit over my shoulder and vet every single one. She said I could write the information on a scrap of paper (like the mattress). She said she didn't want to deal with it, and when I asked her, "Aren't you excited for me?", she said, "No, I'm not."

The difference was, when she started saying the usual stall, about having to think about it, and I'd have to go through it with you, I completely changed. I said, "No." She started to get up and leave the room, and I said, "You don't have a choice in this. If you hate the albums so much, why would you want to go through them with me? I don't need you to tell me what I am using for this project. These are professional people, they are not interested in waiting four months because you hate them. I've asked and begged and waited and knocked myself out to make it easy for you for two years and I still have nothing. That's not going to happen again. This is going to happen". She was absolutely stunned. Stunned that I said no to her, stunned that I told her I was doing this. Then she accused me of taking pictures from the house, and I ripped the picture calendar off the wall, threw it in front of her and pointed out each picture that I had taken myself, and she started apologizing. I said to her, "Don't ever tell me again how creative and talented I am, and what a shame it is that I can't do something with it, because that obviously doesn't mean a thing." I said, there's isn't a document that has ever been in my hands that I can't be trusted with, since I have birth certificates from 1866, for genealogy, and you know it." On top of which, Lord Crown, who was there, offered to do the whole thing for free on the best quality paper, instead of paying a fortune and waiting two weeks, at the local copy shop. Then I capped off the whole thing by saying, "If you had done it in the last two years I've been waiting, I wouldn't have a time constraint now."

So here I am, finally hoping to enter a professional grade, and she's uttering idiocies about copying pictures at Kinko's for forty cents, and writing notes on a scrap of paper. It's the used clothes and the mattress and the no-bedroom all over again. Then, my Psychopath sister calls me last night to tell me that Mom told her I was doing a presentation, and "something would have to be worked out". She pumped me for information which I didn't give her. It was a repeat of the previous phone call, with "but" and putting me in the wrong about "demanding" the albums, and that the gallery could wait (!!) etc. So I told her that Mom was asking about the "missing pictures", but didn't tell her anything else. So now she is freaking out. Since we all know that she took them, it is significant that Mom accuses me of it, but doesn't ask her two days later anything about it. It's always me.

BTW, just for background, Psychopath sister has kited checks, stolen money, forged my mother's signature at the bank to cash Mom's checks, copied the car keys, and so forth. And yet she is never asked about anything that is missing. I, on the other hand, have been accused so far of "taking the christening clothes, taking pictures from the albums and attic, keeping the deed to the family graves, and keeping my mother's car manual". And not just once, I am asked about these things over and over again for years.

I am sorry this has turned out to be so long. I have to go over this afternoon on an excuse, so I'll see what happens. It took so long to fill you all in on what took place, that I still have to write what I think it means.

First of all, there was not one word from anyone of how happy they were for me, or how proud. Not one word of congratulation.
Second, there was an overwhelming resentment of my taking control.
Third, there is absolute shock that I am saying No, and telling them. This is a huge affront to them.
Fourth, it has been made absolutely clear to me that I could go over with a gallery contract in my hand and tickets to the presentation, along with a magnifying glass and acid-free archival paper, and they would still act as if I were standing there in my brother's clothes, by that mattress, with a scrap of old paper in my hand. What I actually am means nothing. Absolutely nothing. It could not have been made plainer that there is no recognition of any talent or intelligence or gifts of mine. They made me into the image that haunts me; an ugly boring little girl, with cut-off hair, nothing pretty, nothing girly, out of place, annoying, irritating, a problem that won't go away. And that image is exactly how they are treating me with this. As if I were only that, and truly that, and nothing more, ever.

So I will let you know what transpires this afternoon. All I know is, I might have to abandon the project. It might come to that. But it isn't going to change anything about who I am or what should be. Nor will it change how clearly I see them for what they are. Not why they are...I'll probably never know that. But that isn't very important any more.

Jan, my next post is going to try to address what you asked about advice and maybe some steps that helped. I don't want to hog this anymore than I already did, so I'll come back this afternoon. Thank you all as usual for listening and I'll talk to you soon.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 08/26/08 12:30 PM

Dear Lady Crown,
As always I am so happy to see your name coming up when opening the forum!!

Have you any idea how different you sound? So strong, self confident, so much conviction,
so clear!!!
What a growth you have been through.........

I see you standing there in front of the family... Seeing what they try to do... And thank heavens I can say 'try' this time...For I don't think they succeed anymore. There is such a huge difference in who you are and what they want you to be.
I think you are so right in knowing they want you back on that matress, back in those clothes, back in the corner....back in where you were in that humiliating state they want you to be.....
I sence you felt it this time; the huge gab in what you are and their picture of who you should be according to them.
This is such a turning point for you isn't it!!!!!

Did it feel like being in an other world?
I have the feeling you are and will be out of reach for them. Now and in the future...No one can and will take this away from you again..Simply because you won't let them.....

I wondered why you didn't experience the great step foreward you took when adressing all the people who are listening when you spoke? It is like you it is normal to you...doesn't that say enough????????????????
There is so much hidden inside still and you will never let something or someone stop you from now on.
Did you arrive yet on where you have to go?... Won't live be hard again from now on?...Of course it will..But never ever like before..No way!

You are so seeing through all the trick and scames these people use.. You are so trained in howhte act, talk move and all the little things they use to get into you rhead.... it won't trick you again...
I see you need that album with the pictures...But I dont think they will give it to you...They want you to go and tell that man you can't, and be humiliated again rather then give it and afterwards get it back..They don't loose a thing by it, just loosing control and grib over you and that is something that they don't want to do....

I see what Jan ment by asking if there isn't a way to just take the album, do what you need to do to get the pictures and just put it back where it came from..
I remember Saphira's comment on something she said to someone else on this forum... about not doing the same thing as the psychopaths do... Staying strong in who we are ourselves... But this is so very importend to you and it would make such a difference.
The whole situation is different from that with the other person Sapphira talked to ..No privacy involved, just stopping the ongoing involvement in your live and taking control of you own life....

I want to write more but have no timenow, so I comeback to you, in the mean time i thinkof you and keep my fingers grossed over the situation this afternoon!!!
lots of pinky hugs ans so very bright pinky proud!!!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 08/27/08 06:43 AM

Hello Lady Crown

Please donít apologise for a long post, I read every paragraph twice as I wanted to read more!

To say my jaw dropped was an understatement, itís like reading a letter from a completely new person.

You said ďthere was not one word from anyone of how happy they were for me, or how proud. Not one word of congratulation.Ē

Well there are plenty of words here about how happy and proud we are. Congratulations are not enough!!! Admiration is probably a better way to describe my feelings. Iím so happy that you have this wonderful new confidence and very proud at how you calmly handled your sister. That must have taken some doing, you have a formidable strength of character.
Itís great to hear you say you are proud of yourself, that takes courage. That is much more important than anyone else being proud of you. If you are not proud of yourself why should anyone else be?

I wonder why you are still having conversations about anything with your sister when all she does is try to bring you down, isnít it time to mentally cut her out of your life? Have meaningless conversations about any old topic that gives nothing from you, apart from the sound of the words, would do the job. I used to say very odd things in front of my partnerís kid so he could hear - just to confuse him, then say something contradictory which totally baffled him. I would show no emotion so he couldnít read any body language. He had no control when he didnít know what was going on.

Why answer her phone calls can you leave an answer-phone switched on? You could phone back, if you felt you wanted to, then you would be in control and if you knew what she was up to you could have some prepared responses.

It must have given you great satisfaction to let rip and say what you wanted in a very controlled way, again you had control so a response from you wasnít wasted if it put them on the back foot. I wouldnít advocate giving a response to anything normally but if you know what you hope to achieve then that is what you should do as long as you accept it wonít change their future behaviour.

You have a wonderful future ahead of you and you must have your albums otherwise these people have put you back where you were. What possible reason could your mother give to the historian about withholding them if he came to her house with you collect them?

From an outside perspective itís crazy that these people are using this particular weapon but it could be anything of any value or meaning to you. What has it got to do with them-how does it affect them? The simple short story isÖthey are youíre your property and they canít stop you taking them but it has got all out of proportion and if they were normal people we would laugh at what they are doing. Itís a game and you are an unwilling participant, your frustration must be tremendous but hopefully you will be able to retire from this silly game soon.
I feel like coming and taking them for you and facing these crazy people head on, they are trying to control your future but does it have to be in their power to do so?
I think you have to climb the last step towards freedom and a wonderful future, you have earned it, deserve it and should have it.

This is the last link and they know it, once itís broken they have lost all control of you and then who would they be and who would they control? They would be empty vessels.

I desperately want you to get your albums and have that career that will fulfil you. Your transformation would be as complete as you can make it, you will be the person you always were but had withheld from you-like the albums.

Please tell me you will do this and donít forget that you will have the pinky crowd standing behind you supporting you, urging you on. You canít choose your family and just because they are related to you doesnít make what they do any different, itís the people you choose who matter, their opinions count. My partner was always brainwashed by his mother that Ďblood is thicker than waterí thing which I think is a totally meaningless thing to say as that indicates you have to stand by someone who is related to you even if they are evil. Hitlerís mother could have used that pathetic phrase to forgive his act of genocide.

My partnerís mother is the first person to fall out with family Öincluding my partnerÖbecause he wouldnít do what she wanted. She has double standards.
I get the feeling that you are still caring too much for people who will never give anything back to you but you donít feel able to abandon your mother because itís not normal to reject a mother. Maybe you should give yourself that freedom.

Lord Crown must be feeling elated that you are becoming the person he knew you were, he obviously could see what was hidden. You have overcome things that many of us will never really know about, you have a lot to feel proud of yourself for.

Iím looking forward to you telling us you have got all the things you need and your plans for a new start.

Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 08/29/08 05:45 PM

Hi, everyone. here's the update!

Well, I went over, and it wasn't even mentioned. I had an ulterior motive, but unfortunately the albums are so well-hidden, there's isn't a hope of finding them on my own. I went out to dinner with Psychopath sister and Mom just to see what transpired. Psychopath didn't speak to me at all, and I had to run an errand. She actually wanted to drop me off at the mall and "come back for me", so I could wait there for an hour on my cane, just like before. I said No. Everytime she said something stupid and interrogative, I snapped her head off. And I waited for Mom to ask HER where the missing pictures were, and she never mentioned it at all. No one brought up the project, the albums, congratulations or anything. And I didn't expect them to. I knew they wouldn't. I only went because I wanted to see what they would do. That was her chance to speak up for me and encourage Mom to give them to me, and she never even mentioned it. Typical.

Here's the good part.

Lord Crown came home from work and handed me a copy of an 8-page letter, and said, "I just mailed this to your sister". I proceeded to read what I can only describe as a lettre de cachet, informing her that I am quite under his protection, her reign of terror is long over, and just try to go through him. Along with a few salutary comments on her mental state, cruelty, vain attempts at control, and so on. He clearly threw down the gauntlet and dared her to try and take him on. I only wish I could post this masterpiece of rhetoric for you all to read. And as insulting and angry and punitive as it was, I can only call it restrained! So she is in for the shock of her life. I can't predict what will happen. She's either going to have a total mental meltdown and go through my mother in tears, hysterics and "hurt", and try to set my mother on to me, or she'll go the other way and pretend it never came until a few weeks from now, when she thinks Lord Crown has "calmed down".

Now, it's very unusual for Lord Crown to do something like this, but the last phone call was it for him. As he said, he fired a warning shot the last time at the hospital, and told her then, "What ever you've been doing, and got away with doing, you had better stop." And like every Psychopath, she ignored that, and he let her keep weaving her own rope. She is not the type of normal person to be able to take this, since she could never take a no in the first place, and can't bear to give up the control. More to follow. Love and pinky pinky hugs! :>

"A brave man's blood is the best thing on this earth when a woman is in trouble."
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 08/29/08 07:33 PM

Dear Lady Crown,
My hands are in a fist!!!!
Can I go with Lord Crown to do what surely has to be done!!!????
You must feel so great with this man taking control and supporting you this way. Knowing you are not alone... Well,I guess you did know that already. But feeling it, seeing it reading it, hearing it must be overwhelming!!!
It is like you are a whole new, different person... I love it!!!
I will com back to write more tomorrow.It is half past 3 at night now and I have to get some sleep for I will be nothing at all the rest of the coming days when I don't.So glad to came to the forum and seeing your name popping up again.. I planned to just shot the computer down but something told me to wait and first check here!!!

Ooo i am so happy and soo proud..PINKY PROUD!!!!
Love and hugs for the both of you
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 08/31/08 03:29 AM

Hello Lady Crown

You must feel incredibly well protected have Lord Crown look after you like he doesÖ.where do you find men like him?

I often wonder about what would happen if you tell a psychopath you know what their game is and would be very wary so I will be following the outcome of his letter. This is the sort of information we need. I found when my partnerís kid knew I could see right through him he gave up working me over, he became more covert about doing it to anyone else so I had to be more vigilant.

I really relate to what you said about your sister ignoring the letter until he had forgotten and things had blown over. The kid used to do the most appalling things like destroying the neighbours garden furniture and she would come round guns blazing and tell him off. He would just look sullen and not say a word or even apologise after his denials were not accepted then a few days later he would breeze round to her house as if nothing had happened. She always had a supply of chocolate muffins and other goodies that he wantedÖ.and would ask for!

I also relate to the final straw when you feel you canít sit back and let things happen any longer, my turning point was smearing excrement on my face towelsÖ.what message was that giving me!!!!

Life was a lot easier for me when I snapped and had no contact or interaction with the kid after that. I didnít say a word to him about it although my partner did. He even hit him because he was so angry and appalled that his own kid could do that. Luckily the hand didnít really connect and the kid did a dramatic fall at the same time (which was funny and made me laugh inside) so he wasnít hurt but he threatened he would tell the police so my partner said ďplease do and social services will take you away-great! It would do us all a favourĒ You can imagine the thunderous look on his face-he was beaten, exposed and we were both done with him.

After this he stayed with his gran a lot then re-established contact with his own mother so we saw virtually nothing of him as he was away at school during term time and would split his holiday between them, Heaven. The honeymoon period with his mother lasted two weeks but we just ignored the phone calls after he went to live with her permanently and was up to his old tricks again. He got the mobile/cell phone, fancy clothes, games etc then started up again.

On a practical note, you need to get those albums and I would have no conscience about whatever method works, the end justifies the means. I would even consider getting Ďsomeone to break iní. You could wait till your sister was away for a couple of days and just go round with Lord Crown and another witness and tell your mother you are going through the whole house until you find them and it may be easier for her to say where they are.
I think if you show her you will not back down she may cave in. Itís madness them holding you back and if you told an outsider what was going on they would have a hard time understanding the whole game with itís bizarre rules and why everyone was going along with it. If only the rest of the world knew what we know and how we get sucked in by these people and the control they have and use against us.
This is your future and what they do with theirs is irrelevant so Iím sure everyone on this forum will support whatever way you get what you need. I got so excited when you wrote about your plans and I want to see it happen. What a result when you get thereÖ.it will go a little way to give back what was taken from you despite all the odds against you.

You will set an example for people who come to the forum looking for help.

Best of luck and regards
Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 09/02/08 10:38 PM

Hi, Jan and Segaya,

I hope you are both doing well. Has anyone heard from Sapphira? Thanks so much for both of your comments. Segaya, you are so welcome to go with Lord Crown! He would love that! And then we'd all go out to lunch! Jan too!
I often wonder about what would happen if you tell a psychopath you know what their game is and would be very wary so I will be following the outcome of his letter. This is the sort of information we need. This is very true, Jan. So far, she has ignored it, and I haven't heard a peep, which I expected. Like I said, it was either that or complete meltdown. However,she is going on vacation in a few days, so I think she is pretending it didn't happen so as not to ruin that. Yeah, good luck with that. I saw my mother the other day, didn't mention the letter, and told her she only had a few days to get the albums! She said, "don't worry about that", but for the first time it wasn't in a stalling way, more like reassuring. Of course, I'll believe it when I see it, and I don't intend to let up the pressure. I just had news that my other brother was coming into town in October, God help me, and I'm anxious that she's going to use that as an excuse to "wait until then". And my answer to that is No.

Jan, I can't believe, although I do, what you had to go through with your partner's child. That was a great comeback to the police threat, I liked it a lot. It must have been such a relief when he was gone. The other day I actually thought to myself, "I would be better off if Psychopath sister was swept away by Hurricane Gustav.." For a moment it surprised me, then I realized that it would be a relief from the intolerable pressure and unending abuse. And the sense of relief was enormous and made me realize how bad it really is. It's a sad moment, but only a moment, when you realize there is nothing about them you would miss and that you prefer it if you never saw them again. And I don't feel bad about feeling that at all. It acknowledged how I felt.

Jan, I'm trying to answer your questions about how it took place, but it's hard. It seems like one little thing happened, then another, then another. I know a huge turning point for me was the mattress picture. It physically brought it all back for me. But it was building up before then. It actually started when I was trying to do the accounts one day, and I was writing plans. I looked at the list and realized I only paid a bill when I had to or when Lord Crown needed something. Nothing else had any importance for me. I started wondering why I didn't feel any impetus to do anything else, and I gradually came to understand that I was never in the picture. What I wanted or needed, just wasn't there. So I started wondering where else is this happening? And I saw it all over, in every area. So I started asking myself what I wanted? Even little things, like salad dressings or to go somewhere. I was constantly automatically taking those things off the list.

So I tried putting a few tiny things back in (like Segaya's leg warmers!). And it started to work a little bit. But everytime I got something, or paid a bill on time, what it really did was shook up my thinking, and troubled me. I wondered where did this come from? I'm an honest person, and not a bill-skipper, so what had caused this lack of feeling about responsibilities and enjoying something for myself? I thought about it over and over, and then I started to see me without a bedroom. Or a notebook. Or clothes. I could feel the deadening of any desire or right to things. I started to see all these examples of what made me like this. The mattress. The not being allowed out. Not getting a notebook. The old clothes, the bedroom being thrown out, sleeping in the porch. All of it. And I could feel for the first time how confusing that was to my mind, how distorting it was to my expectations and how it kept me from having priorities that did something for me.

I'm so sorry, I have to sign off. I will finish this later, a household thing has come up. Much love,
Lady Crown
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 09/03/08 01:49 AM

Hi Lady Crown

I am well, thanks for asking.....and feeling relieved that the court hearing on Monday is over. Nothing was finalised but the judge said the other side would have to go to the civil court if they wanted to carry on as she wasn't able or prepared to listen to them. Let them! I don't care any more as they are in riduclous territory now.

I'm pleased your sister has ingnored the letter, I would guess she hopes things will blow over and she can go back to where she was before she received it. Amazing how they do that! As if we would forget.

I remember thinking if my partner's kid dropped off the planet it would please me and I wouldn't feel the slightest bit guilty because it would do everyone a favour. There was not one thing about him that was positive or he could offer the world.

I see what you mean about little things and moving forward bit by bit. I suppose once you allow yourself a treat and not feel guilty because there is no reason to then you can allow the next one. I'm a bit the same when out shopping, I get the feeling I shouldn't have things for myself and I have absolutely no reason to feel that way like you do so maybe it is not all to do with your early life. I think we should all go on a shopping trip and encourage each other to have something we want. Yes-lunch would be good too!

I hope you get your mother to allow you to collect the albums while your sister is away and definitely before your brother gets back in town.

I must go, I'm looking after an elderely friend with dementia and need to get there on time as he gets confused if I'm not there on the dot. He has a daily diary with details like this and gets by following it to the letter. So sad!

I'm looking forward to hearing more positive things from you....and looking forward to the celebration when you finally get your hands on the albums.

Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 09/29/08 06:53 PM


All right, pinky girls, it's time to party! Woo-hoo! was at a terrible cost. A tremendous fight and the relationships will never be the same. Ever. I am torn between exulting over getting the album, and writing forever to tell you all that happened. It was really bad, and I mean permanently. But I want you all to be happy for me, because I did what was right, and I knew you were all standing behind me, supporting me.

As you know, I called my mother and said what day I could come over for them. She agreed. Lord Crown drove me, and I walked in, and immediately realized the album wasn't there. It was another setup and another stall. In that split second, it went from being about the album to being about me. I was going to be put through another round of repetitive reasons, requests, etc. And the album was never going to be produced. It was as if the "scales fell from my eyes". (Segaya - de schalen vielen van mijn ogen) I suddenly understood without question that this was dishonest and stalling and utterly contemptuous of me, and in that moment, my heart said "I can't allow this to happen. I can't afford to let this happen to me. I can't take this damage", and I struck back.

I ordered my N brother to go and get them, and I limped out to the living room. Everyone followed, kind of stunned. We all sat down, and believe it or not, my N brother (who is being upgraded to Psychopath as we speak) began accusing Lord Crown and I of coming over with an agenda, and abusing (abusing!) them! Them! He asked if "this was an intervention". He told me that I could come over there and help HIM "scan" the pictures on a computer that is second-hand, not compatible with mine, and has no photo programs. At his convenience. Like he's doing me a favor. Mom said she didn't want the album to leave the house, but wouldn't tell me why (although it has left twice before with my Psychopath sister). They told me I was wrong when I specified the photography needs and programs. They said he knows more about my computer than I do, and he has never used a Mac in his life. My mother accused me in a general way of taking things, since "things were missing".

Now, here's the mise-en-scene. In the time it took for me to realize that this was just another mind-game, I reached a level of anger that has rarely been seen. Yet I controlled it. What I did was sit calmly in the living room, and no matter how stupid and insulting they got, I stayed impassive, and rejected every effort they made to draw me into a useless argument, or defend myself, or repeat the request again. When they were evasive, I said so. When he tried to draw me into an argument about abusing them or our "agenda", I laughed in his face and said, "Don't be ridiculous". They simply could not get to me and it made them crazy. I never raised my voice or made gestures or brought up the past. I was just obdurate. I would have cut my tongue out before I would have explained the project again for the millionth time.

Well, they didn't know what to do. They got all heated, and told Lord Crown to stay out of it, because he was "quietly" discussing with N brother what an abject failure he was as a brother. Mom got all upset and the tears started. Instead of going in and cosseting her, or trying to "reach her", I walked into the other room, sat down on a chair, and was cold and steadfast. She just kept crying, and I got up and walked out. At one point, I demanded to know why when she knows I am totally trustworthy, I can't take the album a block away, and she slipped, and said "your sister was slicker than you". So I controlled my rage, and said, "I'm not going to pay for that". She blamed me for "letting Lord Crown talk to her like that" (he had said restrainedly, I'm not going to stay out of it"), and I said, "I don't "let" him do anything. He earned that right with every tear of mine he wiped away. You wouldn't let my father say "boo" to your mother, that's your marriage, that's not my marriage." She kept crying like I had cut her heart out, and he kept throwing out this nonsense about how we were abusing them. Finally I said to N brother, "You need to learn the difference between anger and abuse."

So now she's sitting on the couch, being all crushed and victimized, and they are so frustrated because I won't react the way they are used to, and am furiously angry, but in a cold way. So she suddenly gave up, and said, "Just give it to her". So N brother goes up to the attic and guess what? Remember all the reasons about how it was too much work to dig it out, and find it, and so forth? He went right to the top of the stairs, picked it up (hidden in a suitcase), and brought it into the living room within a minute and a half. And I knew again it had just been another lie and another stall. That made me even angrier, but again, I stayed impassive. Lord Crown sent me out the room for a bit and took the opportunity to tell N brother a few home-truths about himself and his shocking neglect of me as a sister, and the like. N brother kept whining that he didn't know what to do, and wringing his hands, and Lord Crown said in effect, "if you had any feelings, and your sister was hurt or lonely, no-one would need to tell you what to do." I was so proud of him! It was really great to see him finally be able to let go and speak his mind.

So we left. No one called me and I was completely shunned. I was so exhausted and stunned the next week it was like I was dreaming, but I never once doubted that I had done the right thing. I let a week go by, and I called to check on my mother, ( yeah, I know, big chump) and she said "I want to talk to you about what happened." Now, I'm the first (only) one to try and reconcile and reach her, and I shocked her by saying, "I don't want to talk about it. I'm never going to talk about it." She then said what she wanted to say was that she didn't want to talk about it. So if I had needed to, that door was shut in my face. So according to her, it's now all "behind us". But it never can be.

I am sorry that this is so long, but I wanted you to know what happened. When I wrote it out for my doctor, it was 12 pages! They are not used to seeing me angry, and never for my own sake. No matter what their sick reasons are for putting me through this, the main point was they were crazy mad that I had the audacity to be angry. The lies, the stalling, the disrespect, the endless repetitions. How dare I? And I was just supposed to go through it all again, and again, and again. And then, I didn't allow myself to be drawn into that psychotic trap of baiting me, and I get upset, and we go off on tangents, and I talk about how cruelly they treat me, etc. I didn't even bother. I just ignored the baits, and actually laughed at them, didn't stray off the topic, and didn't get distracted. Nor did I fall for the tears and the "sentiment".

I have realized that every time I was the only one who tried to reach her, and she just took that as my apologizing. There is not an ounce of contrition for any of it, or any sense that she was wrong in any way at all. If I went over and did talk to her about it, I would just be repeating myself, and I finally realized that. Also that it doesn't matter at all. I'm still being shunned, and I'm so glad, because I don't even want to see any of them. Apparently the pretense is going to go on, which is sickening, because this is why I ended up the way I did. Terrible damage, blaming myself, unable to believe myself if I thought the sun rose in the east. And they did this to me for nothing. And I'll never know why, and right now I don't really care.

So I have the album, but much more importantly, I have more of myself. I don't know how to explain that, except that I realized that it didn't matter if I got the album, but that I stood up to the damage they were going to inflict. And I did. Lord Crown is immensely proud, by the way, and even my doctor was pleased for me.

I hope you are all well and come back to the board soon. Sorry again for such a long tale, but I wanted to share it with you. I know you were all in that living room with Lord Crown and me.

Much pinky love, and here's a picture of how I was....:>

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 09/30/08 05:25 AM

Dear Dear dear Lady Crown....
Picture me; Big huge smile on my face, wanting to dance through the house with joy!!!!!I am smiling, laughing and crying at the same time.
What a relieve!!!
This message wasn't too long..It was short, but very powerfull.

it makes so very clear that the fight they gave you for so many years hadn't anything to do what so ever with the album or with all other excuses they will have found... It has all to do with them wanting to control you . You taking control had to mean taking the album don't you think?

It must give you a feeling finally of have having control of your own live, thinking, body,progress and all that is involved in a live. Feeling of existence even.....
This is truly a turning point in live and it is a great one.
Oooww i am sooo proud
So happy, so relieved!!!!

I picture Lord Crown, finally able to express all frustrations that have build up throughout the years he saw your suffering. It is great he waited till you reached this point in live befroe he geet it a bit out of his system!!!
I want to thank him for he gives hope to so many other women who are in a simmilar situation you were in.
Knowing their are people,men , out there who take sides,who are willing to make a choice and stand by it and take time for the partner to reach the point of no return,before they explode themselves. It has such an impact on all of daily live that this must be hard to do.....

Your docter must have been so proud indeed, for how you evolved in this matter. he knows from how deep you came and will b able to see the progress. Take it from me; Not everybody can do this kind of thing the way you did it!!!
Apart from the process you were/ are in somehow you manage to stay so very close to who you are. Not letting circumstances realy effect you in the sence, you didn't let the family ruine who you are!!!
You didn't get hatefull, angry, you didn't let it get inside very deep, although it must have felt that way. It didn't change you in the core of who you are!!! That's it I think, and I know you will understand completely what I mean!!!

I looked at the picture you is the same one I send you a copple of months ago, did you found that posting I send to you?
I knew you are a Superwoman....hihihi In the band I am singing a song of a Dutch band ( cover) It is called "Wonderwoman" I will sig it with you on my mindfrom now on!!

Love and pinky hugs specially for you and of course a big HI HI HI for Lord Crown.

Look at my posting to you on General discusion page 30 of 8/29/08 at 7 33 .
LOL...... smileeeeeee..... loveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.....

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 09/30/08 07:56 AM

Hello Lady Crown

You certainly did it!!!

I just had to reply the minute I read your post, I could hardly wait to read it all before writing to you. I am absolutely thrilled for you...not just because of getting the album but hearing about who you have become. There will be no going back for you now and you can leave these people where they are. You didn't choose your family but now you can choose the people you want to have in your life.

Amazing they were playing these crazy games....all you were doing was collecting a photo album!!! They were behaving as though you were trying to take their souls away and your mother's histrionic behaviour was bizarre. It just proves what sort of people you are dealing with.

How on earth did you manage to stay so cool and collected under such pressure? I would have loved to read the whole 12 pages.

You have made my day!

Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 09/30/08 06:03 PM

Dear Segaya and Jan!

I was so happy to read your posts, and I'm so glad you are both so pleased! So is Lord Crown! He thanks you, Segaya, for your compliments!

Segaya, you hit the nail right on the head. "Feeling of existence"...that was perfectly right. Not being invisible like they want me to be, so much so that I doubted everything. I had to be the crazy one, right? It had nothing to do with the album or the excuses. It could have been anything. I did get that posting you sent me, we are on the same page! I know that image was in my mind through this.

Jan, that is so true...all this drama for nothing but a forty-pound chunk of paper! Like you said, not their souls or possessions...just paper. I managed to stay collected under that pressure, because I wasn't really trying to get something. Once I saw what was going on, the album didn't matter anymore. But being gaslighted and driven insane did. And that anger propelled me to not be afraid of them, risking them not loving me versus me believing in myself. I had to stop believing in what they were saying, to believe in what I was seeing and feeling. And once I believed in what I was seeing before me, (the lies and abuse), the album didn't matter, and if they loved me didn't matter. It just no longer mattered if they ever stopped treating me this way, or how they felt about me, or the crazy games they did. It didn't matter if they threw me out. It truly didn't matter if I ever reached them at all. It only mattered if I believed in myself, that what I was seeing was true, in allowing myself to refuse to be invisible and the crazy one, the problem.

I know how I was so blinded. They made a combination of a loving person and the destabilization of years, and I ended up not trusting anything I feel. Especially with all the isolation I suffered. I'm sorry it took me this long to get it, but every time I stood up for myself even a little bit, I moved closer to this. And, as Lord Crown is so fond of saying, they just kept piling it on and proving to me that I was right, while still expecting me to buy it. I know that something ended that night, and it wasn't just my accepting abuse. I just don't feel the same about them. I guess when you finally see it, it changes something in you. And that's okay. It really was them or me.

Segaya, I love the note about the Wonderwoman song! Thank you! You were so right earlier on when you said I was seeing through the lies and scams. Did you ever see the movie "Panic Room" with Jodie Foster? It's a good suspense thriller, but there's a line in there that really foretold all this. Jodie Foster is being questioned by another character as to her actions (I don't want to give anything away!), and she says, "Because it's going to come to that." And it is so true.

I will check in again tomorrow. I have to go feed Lord Crown;> I think the hero deserves a nice dinner, don't you? I'm so happy I gave you both some happiness. Knowing that you're out there and having been with me through the steps of this, it really made a difference, starting with knowing that it happens to others and it's true.

Very pink love and hugs!

Lady Crown
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 10/02/08 03:43 PM

Dear friend,
Yes I am proud...I know so well where you are coming form...But I also know there is no stopping you now!! Not anymore....

There is no way you let them succeed again in what they will try to do again and again. Don't wait for them to see the light..Don't expect them to change...they simply won't!!!

It is , was and will remain all up to you...The big difference took place in you, nothing to do with them any more. They only pushed you over the edge in the sence that through all their actions you are clear now what was happening. No doubts anymore, no more looking in mirrors to find out what is wrong with you.. Now the vision is clear and it will never be blurb(???) again....
Now the focus can be all on yourself and your live with Lord Crown...
That is hard too isn't it.. What a change in perseptive, what a change ...a complete 180 you have to make now!! But what a good one!!!

The struggle is not over in that sense...... But it is so much more rewarding, and so much easier!!!
Please spread your wings and fly dear Lady Crown..feel how it is to be free and go where ever you choose to go.....The world and all on it is waiting for you......

Did you start working with the album already..? Did you go and meet the people yet who need your help with all these things??? Did you discover more then you expected???
I am tooo curious I think hwahwhwhha but I can't wait to hear more...and more...and more....

You are indeed such an example and such a brave person.... Wonderwoman in the true sence of the word!

on another subject I have to let you know; I am still washing my hair CO and, wauw, it is great. My hairdresser noticed the difference clearly and was very surpirsed about what I had to say about that!... It 's growing much faster and looks much better, feels better also and I won't stop doing it this way ever again!!!

There is so much I want to say to you, but just getting a bit better after being sever ill again, my condition is not up to it.
But... it is coming... no worries...
I love o hear more about you progression...
Love and many, many pinky proud hugs
Posted by: Pat

Re: General Discussi - 10/10/08 10:06 AM


I couldnīt add this to the book thread myself, so I also add it here in the "family" section.

Posted by: Lady Crown

Re: General Discussi - 11/26/08 02:08 PM

Hi, everyone. I've been viciously sick with flu for almost two months now, and Lord Crown actually took the computer away to work, to force me to rest. I wonder how you are all doing, and I'm sorry about the absence. I wanted to do a short post to say hello, and see how everyone is. I know it's an American holiday, but I wanted to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving no matter where you are. I'm thankful to have people like you in my life, being my friends, and knowing that you're out there for me, as I am for you. I'll fill you in on the status quo at some other point, as I have to rest now. I hope you're all doing well, and know I am thinking of you.

WIth much love,

Lady and Lord Crown
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 11/26/08 03:45 PM

Dear Lady and Lord Crown.....
Sooo happy to see your name popping up!!!!
Aspecailly the last week or one and a half week I was thinking of you more often even then usually.
Ill by the flu for so very long.... It has to mean all your energy is gone!
Please be careful with yoruself. Maybe lord Crown was right to take the computer. You need a lot of rest...Not only to recover from the flu but from all that happend resently.
How are things now. Is the family leaving you in peace now or still trying to get their clauws in your life?
You 'winning the battle' will not put their minds at ease I expect!!
So I hope you keep going strong and close.

I am doing oke. Was ill for a while but much better now. I had a friend visit me last month ( is it just a month ago??? It seems ages)and it did me a lot of good. It gave me a change finally to talk my heart out about all things that happend in the past and still are happening.
It puts everything in perpective and it seems I am able now to look at things thathappend in a different matter.
As you kow I started a Dutch forum on psychopathy and I am surprissed at the number of visitors that come to read.I ever expected to be somuch in such a small country!
I know their are a lot of psychopaths out there, but didnt expect so many people wanting to know about all that'is involved for it takes such a long time to see it for what it is....
So what is left is my curiousity about how you are doing and what your plans are...
We know now you got your album..... are there new plans with it are you getting to the work you wanted to do with it... Are you still in contact with the right people?
How are you in general and how do you feel about yourself after the fights with your family.....
I can't wait to read more of you.......
Keep strong my friends
Lots of love and hugs Segaya
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussi - 11/27/08 02:05 AM

Hello Lord and Lady Crown

It is so good to hear from you. I was thinking about you yesterday!!! The reason I thought of you is because one of our new members is having a terrible time and doesn't know where to get help. It was going through my mind how we were all 'behind' you when went to visit your family and hoped you would be part of the group to be with her when she has to face her demon.

It sounds like you have more than just flu....your immune system must have taken a severe battering after years of fighting other things. You do need to get as much rest as possible and not to feel guilty about it. Our bodies tell us what they need and we have to listen.

I think Segaya asked all the questions for me, I'm really looking forward to hearing all about how things are going...when you are ready. It will be something to look forward to.

What I would really like to know, if you are ever able to tell us, is how you did it??? How were you able to face the challenge you did and succeed with your integrity in tact?
There must have been a hidden strength there all along and something told you the time was right to overcome the past?
I hope you will be able to share your thoughts with the members to give them the confidence to know so much canbe achieved.

All my best wishes for a very happy and successful future.
Posted by: rose2009

Re: General Discussion - 01/20/09 07:49 AM


I was wondering if someone could help me.
Now i do not know if my dad is a psychopath, but i have been looking up the traits on various websites and i recognize similarities. Also antisocial personality disorder seems to fit the bill.
my dad married my mum when she was very new to the country, she came over from malaysia at 17 and married my dad in her early twenties, they were both working on a psychiatric ward.
I was always close to my dad so i saw no faults. However since they divorced two years ago, i have learnt that my dad was not the person i thought. I always thought that he was withdrawn, didn't sleep. He was always nice to me, but to my brother he bullied him emotionally, every chance he got he would always lash out on my older brother.
He was jealous of my relationship with my mum, he didnt like me watching tv in the bed with her.
He wasnt nice to my mums friends and was jealous if she ever went out with male and female company.
my mum has told me a few things of what went on within their marriage but she will not tell me it all. I dont expect her to, but i have not spoken to my dad in a very long time and im scared he will harm himself, he used to say he would commit suicide and that he gives and everyone takes.
he is obsessed with money and has a gambling problem, not online or casino's i mean competitions, lottery etc.
He has no sense of emotion, i believe he never grew up, my granny (his mother) passed away over three years ago and before she feel ill, she was still making him packed lunches, cooking him dinners and she was always mothering him, but when she passed he shed no type of emotion.
My mum is a assistant director of mental health so i know she knows what shes on about, but she has told me not to let my dad know where my boyfriend lives.

I am very confused as he is my dad, but i dont no whether to rebuild a relationship with him as i know he will depend on me, i dont want him to take advantage of my weaknesses.

I know its hard to say, but i really dont know who i can talk to about this, as it is a fragile subject as he is still my dad.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 01/20/09 08:49 AM

Hello Rose

Welcome to the forum. You have certainly posed a lot of questions but Iím not sure what sort of psychopathic traits you think your father shows. The place to start if you really want to get good information is Dr Robert Hareís PCL-R (Psychopathy Checklist-Revised) but from the little you say about him he doesnít sound psychopathic and this may put your mind at rest.
If you had a close relationship with him then he is capable of having a relationship which would not be the case if he was.
As your mother is a mental health professional she would be a good source of information on mental health issues.

There may be lots of reasons why he behaves like he does but as you said it is not appropriate to ask your mother about certain things. If she feels bitter about their marriage she may tell you only her side of things anyway. Have you any close relatives that could give you an unbiased opinion about your father? As you are looking for a positive outcome it is not as though you are asking them to Ďdish the dirtí on him.

Jealousy of your motherís friends and the company she kept is one thing but if it was expressed to isolate her from people then that is a very different thing but still not necessarily an indication of psychopathy.

If your father has threatened suicide, it is usually just thatÖa threat. He is an adult so has to take responsibility for himself, whether he is serious or not is not something you have to take any responsibility for.

You say you are not sure if want to rebuild a relationship with him, then if that is the case you are not ready to do it. You didnít say when or why your relationship with him ended. As I said he is the adult and cannot expect to rely on you although you didnít say what he would rely on you for.
When you do feel ready then there is no need to rush things, you could start by phoning him rather than meeting up.

Do you know why your mother said it was better for your father not to know where you boyfriend lives?

Could I ask what age you are?

I hope we can help support you while you are so confused and maybe we can help you find information so you get a good understanding of your father.

Posted by: dennis

Re: General Discussion - 06/10/09 05:22 AM

Hello, I am a new member, and before I write about why I have joined this web-site forum I would like to ask a question. I should like to know if having no conscience could be heredity?
Thanking dennis
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 06/10/09 08:26 AM

Hi Dennis, thanks for your question. It is quite an interesting one still being hashed out by the professionals. I have a few observations, I do believe which most do it is a matter of nature not nurture if a person is a Psychopath. I believe lack of nurture can create more of an obvious monster, i.e. prison killer who shows no remorse etc.

I would suspect there would be a great deal of fear if a person is born or raised by a Psychopath to think they would turn out the same. I think that many times someone raised by a Psychopath and NOT ALL can carry some of the tendencies to survive (or could mimic the Psychopath but not be one, just surviving or following what most of us do in looking up to our parents and at a young age, how can we understand what they are doing. I think this is a minority since I know of many, many fine, good, kind caring people who were raised by these monsters. Many pass through here and it is obvious they are not Psychopath's themseles or in any way resemble one, only severly harmed by one.

I guess the short answer is maybe others will chime in with their thoughts to help with your question. I personally do believe genes play a part but don't want to take it to the frightening extreme without knowing more of your concerns.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 06/10/09 10:26 AM

Hello Dennis

The statistics would indicate that psychopathy can be heritable but I don't know the precise figures. Lack of conscience is only one feature of psychopathy. Have you looked at Dr Hare's psychopathy checklist? It is available in the resources section of the forum but if you can't find it just let me know and I will locate it for you.

Would you like to tell us a little bit more about your circumstances and we can help you find other information that might be relevant to you. None of us on the forum can offer any sort of diagnoses and can only share experiences and information we have researched.

Is there a reason you have begun to look for information or was it just your step grandson's recent behaviour that made you question things?

Please feel free to ask any questions you have. We are open to discussion to any topic related to psychopathy or willing to help you explore other avenues if we feel there are other things to be considered.

Posted by: LeesaR

Re: General Discussion - 06/16/09 06:30 AM

Hi, Mati,

I am in a very similar space that you're in - I began counseling a few months ago for an unrelated PSTD experience with a former business partner. I thank God that I did - my abusive ex dropped dead at 50, leaving my 2 sons behind. A number of similar issues apply.

I'm finally getting to the point where I just don't care about their opinion of me (or, anyone else's). I wasn't a perfect person, and I got out before I either jumped in front of a bus, or my ex shot me. My eldest has gone the way of the psychopath, as well - he has gone so far as to produce and forge military documents and Service Decoration Awards (Purple Heart, Bronze Star), and this flies in the face of every man and woman who will never, ever be coming back and the ones who will never live a normal life. Of course, he's done many, many other things that don't require noting, here.

For a while, pity was the only thing that I could feel - pity, and shame. Pity that my son walks in such a lonely world, and shame that I had birthed him. I have to take steps to forgive myself and my son, and move forward. Just because I forgive does not mean that I will forget - the things that my son has done are heinous and he is solely responsible for his choices.

Keep reaching out, Mati, and telling people everything about your experiences. If someone asks, be brutally honest. And, DOCUMENT - keep all documents, letters, correspondences, a personal log, and keep them handy. When my spouse found the evidence of my son's forgeries, it made me physically ill, but I kept it for all these many years - at some point, I knew that the ability to hold up a bag full of stamps, scanned documents, and instructions in my son's own handwriting, might be of help to someone, someday.

Hang in there, Mati. It doesn't get easier, but we can definitely get stronger through our own healing processes.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 06/16/09 04:07 PM

Hello Leesar

it sounds like you are going through a very stressful time and I hope we can offer you some support as you come to terms with your problems.

I would guess you came to this forum because you are researching information on psychopathy so maybe our resources section will have what you are looking foe.

It is very sad that your son causes you so much grief but there is probably no reason to blame yourself. If and when you feel able to tell us more about your situation then we will be here to listen.

Have you ever met a 'perfect' person....I haven't and I don't think I would want to, there is no such thing and if anyone appears to be perfect....avoid them like the plague!

That's a great place to be not caring about the opinions of others, they are often not worth considering anyway. What about your younger son, is everything OK for him...and with you.

I hope you soon feel ready to tell us more about your experiences.

Posted by: strongwill09

Re: General Discussion - 07/14/09 07:07 PM

Hi! I have done a lot of research in the past 2 yrs. on psychopaths. My husband and I were married for 31 Yrs. and never suspected it. He had his quirks, and odd at times, but I never expected this. 2 yrs ago, he made up this story of falling off rafters on a job he was doing. Actually, he got hit in the head, because I suspect he fathered a child with a 25 yr. old, two years older than my daughter. I had to search my phone book for a numberr, and found all of these numbers for child support, and so on. I continued to ask him about the truth, and more lies. Believing the story that he fell, and ended up with traumatic Brain injury, was even played out by the hospitals. The injury to his brain was biological changes to the stressors. He is now a full blown psychopath, constantly breaking restraining orders, driving recklessly, and shows no empathy for anyone or anything. His entire family are psychopaths, and diagnosed with affective dissorder. My husband was diagnosed with major depression with psychosis. I could write a book, and this will certainly be made into a movie. He has drained me of everything financially, and looking for alimony. He has played the court system, probate, civil, and criminal, and the judges, nor the attorneys see what he is doing. I have exploited him in all three courts with documention, and the games will begin. I did find that a lot of attorneys will not even handle this type of divorce, because he is mentally ill. I try to explain to different attorneys the story, and look at me like I have 10 heads. I am a fighter, and not a quitter, and they are getting caught in their lies. Sometimes I loose it because I am fustrated, and the psychopath loves this. That is his move to turn it around to make it look like you have the mental problems. They are very dangerous people. I have seen my husband giving the predator stare to attorneys, and I almost cringe. Now that this has come to play, looking back, I see the red flags that probably looked pink, because as his mother would say. " You need to put on the rose colored glasses". I know that he will probably damage himself, or someone else will do it for him. He is a manace to society, and probably a pedafile. I have to remember, that the man I married, and stayed married to was not real, in my mind I wanted it to be that way. He is a body with no soul. He has taken my personality, someone elses, and that is who he is. The problem now, is that he got caught with his sexual devience, and he is running. They will eventually die because they can't keep up the pace they are living. My friend and I will be contacting Oprah on this because this makes "sleeping with the enemy" mild compared to this. I hope I can help anyone out there with this problem are are battling. More psychopaths are running rampid, and women want a man desperately, that they fall into the hands of evil, and the cycle never ends.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 07/15/09 02:27 AM

Hello Strongwill

I hope that name describes how you will get through your divorce. It is good to have a name to live up to.
Many people come to the forum looking for advice and confirmation of what they need to do to break out of a relationship and itís good to know you have come to offer hope that it can be done so welcome to the forum. You are obviously very pro-active about getting through this battle and out the other side so I hope you get the support this forum can offer. Sometimes being able to share feelings through the range from anger to happiness with other members gives you an outlet and not feel alone. All the members understand what others are going through so explanations are needed.

Your story, although different from others, runs along the same lines and even the same phrases are used and members will identify with everything you say.
Ignoring the red flagsÖ..who doesnít do that? Each time we see one we think and hope it was a one off and wonít happen again. We even forgive and forget the next time it happensÖ.and the next until we come to accept that is part of who the person is. The behaviour becomes Ďnormalí and absorbed into our life.
ProjectionÖ.of course we do that tooÖwe naturally expect every person to have emotions, feelings and normal reactions like we do. We make excuses when someone imitates our personality and interests as we think the other person admires us enough to want to be the same. We promote leading by example but donít expect it to be used against us or to plunder our personality.

Could you tell us a bit more about before your exís accident and the things you were living with during your marriage that you accepted as normal?
Do you know why the accident unleashed his personality or was it an excuse for him to let the mask slip? I presume you think someone hit him deliberately? Have you got a copy of the evidence of his diagnosis?

I have every sympathy with you going through a divorce, especially with this man who is using the system to suit himself. After 31 years of marriage you should expect him to have a little compassion and it is hurtful to know there isnít any. I have experienced injustice and perjury and I know how much you want to shout out how wrong the law is. Lawyers are mostly in it for money with divorce cases as there is usually a pot of money to be divided up and they are happy to liberate some of it for themselves. I also realised that it is easier to fight your own case than you might think and considerably less expensive. I hope I can encourage you to keep strong and find all the information and evidence you can to present to the court.

Do you have your own family around to support you?

I hope we can follow your progress through the coming months and support you along the way. Thank you for offering hope for others who have to face a crisis like this. Iím sure the things you learn along the way will be very helpful.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 07/15/09 09:47 AM

Hi, As far as I am aware a head trauma doesn't fall under mental illness, same as Psychopaths.

I hope you are documenting everything, including putting cameras in the home.

Please keep us posted and fill in as many details as you can to help us help you better, if you are willing. If you so desire and have information to further help others we will open a new "thread" to discuss your issues.

Posted by: strongwill09

Re: General Discussion - 07/15/09 06:45 PM

Posted by: strongwill09

Re: General Discussion - 07/15/09 07:11 PM


Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 07/16/09 05:15 AM

Hello Strongwill

You have certainly done a lot of investigative work and sound worn down by not being heard.

Would you mind if I asked what your life together was life from when you first met your ex until the time his anger started? I presume like any relationship there good and bad times and were there any things about this man that gave you cause for concern. What was he like as a father?
You mentioned seizures for forty years and I presume you mean epilepsy so was he on medication for this?
It seems very strange that two women coming to your house with an odd request triggered a shift in his behaviour, is there anything you suspect caused this? From a readers point of view I would take it you are suggesting that they knew him and made an excuse to speak to him but what they had to tell him wasnít what he wanted to hear.

When did you first judge him to be a psychopath and was this suggested to you by anyone else? If he was diagnosed Bi Polar was he taking medication for that and for how long. There are people I know who suffer from Bi Polar and I know how hard it is to balance medication and symptoms are uncontrolled. Is there any diagnosis of a sexually transmitted disease as sometimes this can cause a change in mental health? You need to rule out everything else before struggling with the concept of psychopathy. There is no way to diagnose that for yourself, all you can do is research information if that is what you believe. He would need to be seen by a highly qualified person to get an official diagnosis and that usually only happens when the person is part if the judicial system. You may never get this and I know that doesn't help you and probably not what you want to hear but I think it's best you don't give yourself even more stress trying to chase it. Unless of course you can ask the courts to require him to have a psychiatric assessment.

Iím sorry there are so many questions but Iím just trying to get a good understanding of the history of your story although I see how hard it is to condense 31 years of marriage and more into a few pages. Take your time and maybe put things in a timeline that will help you put things in order.

I was surprised you say you are opting for a jail sentence for him, I donít know how the system works in the US but how is this possible? Could you explain in a little more detail what charges he is answering?

I think it is time for you to take more time for yourself, you are extremely stressed and will burn out if you donít take it a bit easier. There will be time to help others in the future once you are strong enough but for the time being concentrate on your needs.

I will wait until I hear some more of your history and get a better understanding of your story.

Posted by: strongwill09

Re: General Discussion - 07/16/09 08:32 AM


Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 07/16/09 11:49 AM

Hello Strongwill

It sounds as though you accepted your life with your husband and had few expectations. What you have described was not a good relationship but without a comparison how can we judge what is normal? On a positive note it would be good if you could tell us about the good times so that it explains why you tolerated the unacceptable behaviour.

You are like a coiled spring and I hope you can find a way of winding down and looking after yourself. Is your daughter around and has the grandchild been born yet? That will be something to look forward to. You mentioned a friend helping you and that is good to have someone around to support you.

I was wondering whether the women who came to your house were looking to repossess and/or your ex had been borrowing money against the property and it was being called in.

Your ex sounds very unstable and from the diagnosis he received he it does appear that his personality disorder was exacerbated by some sort of medical condition from the information from the DSM you quoted. Was his epilepsy controlled with medication? Do you know if his head injury occurred because of a fall during a seizure? I know medical insurance is an big issue in the US so could it possibly be that the only way he would be covered is by stating he had an accident (fell at work)?

If he declared he had a seizure and a blow to the head during that I presume he wouldnít be covered so maybe you can put me right on that.

Where are you in the legal process at the moment?

I seem to ask you so many questions and I do apologise for adding to your stress but I just want to make sure I understand your story properly.

I hope you take this as a positive statement but I donít feel your ex is a psychopath, although Iím not in a position to qualify that belief but maybe you can get a professional opinion. I know it wouldnít reduce your stress a jot to find out he wasnít because the whole problem is bigger than that. Your problems are huge regardless of his Ďdiagnosisí.

You have done a lot of work and research and perhaps you can say why you feel your ex is a psychopath when he has had assessments that havenít come to that conclusion.
I have to say I have lost faith in many professionals (mainly legal ones) so I like to come to my own conclusions to explore whether Iím on the right track or not. Is that your position at the moment?

How is your health? I get the feeling you keep going rather than enjoy your life.

Posted by: strongwill09

Re: General Discussion - 07/16/09 12:38 PM



Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 07/16/09 01:32 PM

Hello Strongwill

It may help if we go back one stage further and find out about your exís childhood and family background and when his epilepsy was diagnosed. How did the seizures get taken over by panic attacks as they are very different things? It would have been the seizures that were investigated for diagnosis and medication for epilepsy. This must have been before you met. Do you know his parents and details of his childhood?

The symptoms you describe are not what I have any experience with and it sounds more like a psychotic disorder so I wouldnít like to express an opinion. Panic attacks and rocking in a corner donít seem to have anything in common with psychopathy. I understand that a person can have one or more problems at the same time but this isnít something Iím familiar with although I do know quite a bit about epilepsy.

Do you think your ex has multiple problems?

You may feel you are coming out the other side of your problems but I do feel you are putting yourself under a lot of pressure and stress.

I hope we can help you to take a step back and take things a little slower until you are feeling a bit stronger to deal with all these issuesÖand there are plenty.

Posted by: strongwill09

Re: General Discussion - 07/16/09 02:06 PM



Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 07/17/09 12:11 PM

Hello Exhausted,

Don't worry we are here... Day, night and indeed after work!
I remember the time I first came to this forum.. It became my lifeline..Like with a lot of us.. People around the world come here to be heared or share there feelings and thoughts. Many of them leave again and many of us stay and try to help others to survive...
You will get to know us more, like we will get to know you... And the more we know the better advise we can give. We will probably ask you a lot of questions. This is not to make you uncomfortable or anything like that, it is so we get the most clear information in order to see what we can do..Maybe it can help us think back to the time we were in the same position.
My son is now 27 years of age and is not living with me now for almost 10 years..The best 10 years of my live I may add..Like Jan, I have seen it all, been there and hope we can tell something that can be of help for you.
Just take your time and maybe this can be a place for you to relax a bit?
See you soon
Posted by: exhaustedandafraid

Re: General Discussion - 07/17/09 06:03 PM

Hi Jan. My son was adopted through birth mother choice with an adoption agency. I first started noticing a difference in behavior when he was a toddler. He would be unconsolable for long periods of time when there was nothing wrong. Then he would suddenly snap out of it and be happy and cute and funny, making faces etc. I already thought I was going crazy then. He was my 6th child, so it's not like I hadn't had any experience with babies. When he got into preschool, the teachers would say he was an angel all day and then as soon as he would get off the bus, he wouldn't even make in the house before he would drop in the drive and start raging. It could be 2 hours before he was done. As he got bigger,(like 6, his rages became violent. That's when he started seeing a pediatric psychiatrist. He would push his little sister down the stairs if she was in his way. He actually beat up his older sister who was babysitting. He would throw things and put holes in the walls, he would take knives and cut anything in site, took a shovel and bashed out the van window, burned the legs of dolls on the stove, started fires on the floor of his bedroom, he had a compulsion to break glass like light bulbs and jars,painted his feces on the wall (he still does this behavior at 13). I could go on and on. I used to be able to wrap myself around him and restrain him while he had these rages so he wouldn't hurt himself and others. He would spit at anyone who came into range and threaten horrible things like, "when I get a chance I'm going to throw the baby out the upstairs window or Daddy and I are going to leave you." I would be exhausted by the end of the day when my husband came home. My son would be a sweet baby talking child to him. It was years before I could convince my husband that things were as bad as they were. Now, he doesn't care who sees him at his worst because they deserve to be treated that way because "they made him mad." He's mad nearly all the time. He can have people believing he's the nicest young man and counselors even wondering what's wrong with us. That's why we are tired of going to counselors, they don't make any difference. They tell him, "Just go to your room when you start feeling angry or take a time out." But that's not something he wants to do, he wants to continue engaging and torturing us. Or they want to come take him out for icecream and shoot some hoops and think they've made some huge difference. I've had family counselors come out to our home and ask my children if there is alot of yelling going on. Duh. There isn't any when he is in detention, it's peaceful. I had one therapist say his theory is to put down the child's family so he will be defensive of them and see the error of his ways....... The courts think he should still be in counseling, (we owe thousands of dollars for nothing.) He's been on depakote, resperdol, abilify, clonidine, zoloft, etc. At one point he was taking all of them. No difference whatsoever. Except melatonin at night. At least he has a diagnosis from one pediatric psychiatrist last year. Conduct Disorder, which from my research doesn't leave much hope. Can't believe I wrote this much, but I've only just begun. Thanks for listening.
Posted by: exhaustedandafraid

Re: General Discussion - 07/17/09 08:38 PM

Hello Di, If you think an individual thread would be best, that's fine with me. Thank you for answering. As far as animals, we do have 3 family dogs. My son is usually very good with the animals. Occasionally though, he has just outright kicked one when he is angry. We had a cat, but we found him being sexual with it and gave it a different home.
Posted by: exhaustedandafraid

Re: General Discussion - 07/17/09 08:39 PM

I would be interested in what this specialist has to say.
Posted by: exhaustedandafraid

Re: General Discussion - 07/17/09 08:41 PM

Hello Segaya, Yours was the first reply and was so understanding, I sobbed. I appreciate your words and your presence.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 07/18/09 01:08 AM

Hi Exhausted

No wonder you chose that name! I really feel for you. I thought my story was bad but yours is far worse and itís not surprising that you are exhausted. At least we could pack my partnerís kid off to his doting grandmother. Do you get any respite care for your son? You mentioned detention and I presume you mean legal detention that doesnít have special treatment for CD children?

Having a diagnosis of Conduct Disorder canít be any consolation as it doesnít offer any solutions so I suppose the only way you can get help is to have him removed permanently into legal custody. It sounds like you have tried going down every route without success.

Do you know anything about the birth parents, the mother in particular? Although I donít suppose knowing if there was anything in their background to cause any in utero damage makes any difference now you have a diagnosis.
I do know of another parent who had a child with exactly the same set of symptoms especially the rages and they tried ignoring as much as they possibly could so the child had less to rage against but having other younger children it must have been difficult to have one set of rules for him and another for the other children. He eventually went to live with his grandmother where he was the only child.

I fully understand that you felt like the crazy one especially when you are so experienced with children, these kids have a great way of fooling the audience.
What strange advice telling a CD child their family is at fault! That person shouldnít be practicing any form of therapy if they come up with such BS. I found the counsellor we had just as useless, he told my partner it was his fault his kid had problems because he didnít pay him enough attention! I donít think I have come across a single professional who has lived with a CD person let alone a psychopath so they havenít a clue what the reality is like. Granted they may have met plenty in their line of work but the nature of the beast is to lie and charm. They wonít see the sneer on the face of the patient when he/she fools them.

Itís all well and good the court telling you he should still be in counselling but what would that achieve apart from honing his skills? I donít suppose there is any financial help for that anyway? From what I understand the child has to have a diagnosis of something that can be Ďcuredí for that to happen through insurance.

As you have tried every avenue it seems the only thing you can now do is look after yourself and the other members of the family. This boy needs to be somewhere safe Ö.safe for everyone.
I donít know how the system works in the US and whether a child can be taken into care for this sort of problem. I suppose the only alternative is to wait until he does something and taken into permanent custody.
We had got the point that was what we expected to happen but fortunately my partnerís kid decided to go back to his birth mother as he had exhausted us mentally and financially. It has been bliss since he went and he obviously doesnít miss his father as he hasnít phoned once since the day he left.

It was hard for my partner and it took him a long time before he could come to terms with the whole thing but so easy for me as I couldnít bear to be in the same room as the kid. It must be hard for you to give up on any affection you have for your son. Itís not a normal experience and something your son wonít be troubled with. You will have the consolation of knowing that wherever he ends up he wonít feel sad for anyone but himself.

I wish I could say positive, inspiring things to you to make you feel better but I can sense the hopelessness.

It helped me hugely to be able to come here to the forum and vent so please feel free to say what you need to, we will be here listening even if we canít offer constructive advice.

I think Diís information will be good to follow up on.

Posted by: exhaustedandafraid

Re: General Discussion - 07/18/09 08:39 AM

It was to be an open adoption, the mother told us that her family didn't know about the baby. She told us that the father was a dealer and had shot a police officer and was in jail. Who knows what to believe. She also said she wasn't drinking or doing drugs. Not sure I believe that either. We heard from her occasionally and then one day the police came to the door and told us that she had died. The next day we received a call from the grandmother she was living with. We were told that she had left a letter that said in case something should happen, she had delivered a child and gave him up for adoption and gave our address and phone.She wanted to know all about the baby and said he had a brother who was causing serious problems at elementary school. I wanted to know why his birth mother died. She said it was a seizure in the middle of the night. I think with a note left behind, it must have been suicide. We started getting letters from a man who claimed to be his birth father, threatening to get a lawyer and take him from us. I think he was trying to extort money from us. But I wrote him a letter explaining that I had letters from the mother that said she wanted no contact with the birth father and why. And the adoption was completely legal and I had no legal reason to have anything to do with him. I can't even be sure he was the father, but recently I wish I could find him and send the boy to him.
There is no respite available because he was voluntarily relinquished in a different state. We have been told that there is no foster home equipt to take him, but even if there was, because it would be at our request and not the state removing him due to abuse, we would have to pay the monthly foster care payments. I have thought about the possibility of an adoption dissolusionment, but that would take attorneys against the state he came from on the other side of the continant. Mostly I've felt like I'm the failure. That I committed to this child for life and I shouldn't give up on him. My husband is very tenderhearted also. But that's the other thing, he is much older than I and his blood pressure is going out of control. I'm worried I'll be left alone and with the boy.
I have tried the ignoring and he just ups the anti. If he doesn't get a rise out of me by knocking over chairs or threatening, then he will actually go and hurt one of the other children knowing I can't ignore that.
We take away priviledges such as going to a friend's house, and he will tell his friends' family that we are abusive parents to get their sympathy and that we hate them and are racist against whatever race they are. When we remove his belongings such as TV or video game machine, he goes into explosive rages where he puts holes in walls and doors, pushes children around or even punches them, my 4 year old is terrified of him, and kicks dogs.
We can't physically restrain him anymore and he will cry child abuse if we use any physical punishment. Of course he likes to do that anyway, if I reach over to lightly pat him to get his attention to ask him to quiet down in church, he will say loudly, "Don't hit me." Stuff like that.
The irony is, he is constantly telling us and others that we treat him differently than the other children. He doesn't see that he treats us different than his siblings. They do their chores and respect our rules and don't go off on tyrades.
The detention I talk about is through the juvenile justice system here. It is a temporary kiddy jail for kids who need a wake up call for petty offenses and truancy. If they have room, they lock them up for a few days. He has a probabion officer who is overloaded with kids and my son is very submissive and charming to him and to the judge. So until he does a serious crime, we have these little court dates (take time off work,and go through my son's pleas and rages,) where I have to stand in front of a large number of people for my 30 seconds and try to explain to the judge, (and be careful I'm standing in the write place and don't speak out of turn or I'll be humiliated,) that I am terrifiied and helpless. Most of the time, he is just told to be good and come back the next week. If I've said too much, I will hear about it and possibly have reprocussions. He has learned to keep what he does just under what we could call the police about.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 07/18/09 09:22 AM

Hi exhausted, I know for adults therapy will only make the Psychopath worse. Frankly the system stinks as far as diagnosing these kids. Where in the world do people think adult Psychopath's come from, out of the blue sky? Dr. Hare has a Youth Checklist (for ages beginning at 14) and so does Dr. Frisk, I think I have Dr. Frisk's list in my files if you are interested in looking at it, let me know and I will email it to you.

It must be very hard on your family, I shudder to think of what you must be going through trying to keep all this together while watching this one child who seems to be a curve ball in the family.

I am sure that in a small but painful way you will find that you aren't alone as you read the stories in this section.

Would you mind if we moved your posts to one with a title like Adopted Child?

Can you arrange with the legal system to be able to present to the judge your information and history with this child without him being present?


What is the law in your state that a child can be emancipated(sic) from adult care and make their own decisions?
Posted by: exhaustedandafraid

Re: General Discussion - 07/18/09 06:24 PM

Dianne, It would be fine to move my posts to one with a new title. Adopted Child is good.
I would be interested in have Dr. Frisk's list emailed to me also.
I think the only way I can get the judge to listen would be to hire an attorney to represent my husband and I. I don't believe a child can be emancipated until they are at least 16 (my son is still 13), and then they have to prove they can make it on their own. There is no way he would be able to function in the real world for very long. He can't maintain any relationships with friends or teachers. They find out he is lazy, he lies, and he will turn on them at any moment.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: General Discussion - 07/19/09 06:32 AM

Hai exhausted,
I hope you are doing just a tiny little better now you found this forum..Only knowing their are others who had the same situation and survived it, can help so much in gaining energy again..But that is my experience and I just say it because I hope it will have the same effect on you.

To be really honest..and not trying to be harse but sometimes there are no easy, nice ways to say things..
I think the only way to survive this for you, your husband and you other children is to get this kid out of the house asap...
I know this isn't nice to hear but I think to have read enough of your stories to say this.
It is indeed exhausting, not only to live like this but also finding solutions. Every door seems to close, every possibillity seems to be taken away, even before you can explore it... Trying to make people not only believe what you say but understand it, is an endless road so it seem...

I kicked my son out when he was just 17...He threaten to kill me before that for 6 or 7 yeas....At the time I was very ill and he thought he could nag me to death...This was the moment I knew I had to put and end to it for real for he would have succeeded.
Him being 17 was a luxery at that moment...before he was simply to young to throw him out!
And to be honest... I was thinking of that for many years before..What if he is old enough..? will I take action? And indeed I did...Finally...

I don't know a thing about the laws and possibilities in your country and I hope you will find a way to safe you and your other children.

There are a lot of people here from the USA and maybe they can help with these kind of matters.

Don't forget, every day is a step in the right direction to solve this..So just keep going!
See you soon!!
Posted by: clearblue

Re: General Discussion - 10/11/10 10:56 AM

My parent was diagnosed a Psychopath in a mental hospital. He could not remain there beyond 90 days.
The hospital social workers and staff were very distressed over my parent and his cunning and abusive interactions, with other patients.
My parent had total disregard for patients,staff and procedures.
His care and special treatment demands were excessive towards staff.
He was released to family care.
He was not approved for self care,although the system could not deny him the right to live independently.
He was high risk,social deviance and predatory,dangerous as determined by the hospital professionals.
I was told medications and therapy would be ineffective for my parent.
Our family out of fear and his animosity towards them would not help.
They placed his care with me at my family home.
I was not able to ensure safety, control him or enforce any rules of my home or society.
My parent was a menace to my family,community and society.
Eventually my parent returned to his own home,solitary living.
My parent was told to check in with a counseling center to participate.
My parent was told to self monitor,seek help from his social worker.
My parent did not comply with the guidelines given to him.
My parent continued in criminal acts,dangerous acts against society.
I feel the system needs an in-house place for psychopaths.
It is a sad reality, anyone can be victimized by a Psychopath.
They need to be monitored.
Families,society can not absorb the danger Psychopath's impose.
We need to develop an idea for effective placement for Psychopath's.
Posted by: clearblue

Re: General Discussion - 10/20/10 08:13 AM

Brain images,study of Psychopathy.
Very interesting outcome of long term study.
Posted by: ABsfostermom

Re: General Discussion - 03/05/11 07:00 PM

Hello all

Not very computer savvy so if I am going about this all wrong please let me know.

Now thats out of the way I'ld like to give a bit of a background on our situation.
I am a fostermom and our family has fostered for 7yrs now. I have worked with young offenders for over 20 yrs. We have 2 biological kids 18 and 19 and we only foster children under 12(thats where we start, we don't toss them aside once they reach adolesence, but to date have never had a child remain longer than 1 yr.). We also only foster one child at a time.

Our current fosterdaughter has resided with us for a year. Her Mother is in the process of reliquishing parental custody. In essence divourcing the child. Mom adopted child when she was 6 days old and claims the child has Fetal Alcohol Disorder. Although there is no medical confirmation and the child does not have any of the physical features of this syndrome.

Mom claims she was and is unable to control child( started at the age of 6) and claims she is vicious but has never explained what she means by this. Mom states that the child is not capable about caring about anyone but herself and has destroyed Moms life. I was horrified when she confided this and was angry with mother and I am still am on one level. I am having a hard time comming to terms that children are refundable. Oh it should be mentioned that Mom is a teacher.

So that is how she came to us at 11. Her first 4 months in care she went through 2 other homes with both families stating (in confidence to us) that there were no major behavioural issues like aggresssion ect just as one put it "a constant air of discomfort when the child lived with them". We were not deterred and believe all children have the right to be cared for but are now beginning to second guess our decision and are torn because she's a child.....alone and unwanted! The following is a list of oberservations of our past year with this child we'll call her A

On first meeting asked me if I would pray with her...some tears because of the new enviornment...but no saddness as we have experienced with our other foster kids. Was very dramatic and stated praying always helped(last placement were very very christian) As a year has passed she has never made this request and Mother states religion was not a significant force in their home.

The 2nd night left a note for 17yr old son asking if they could hook up later as she was sad and really needed someone to care. Rules boundaries and expectations clearly outlined

No crying or sadness still. I thought she was kind of wierd (phony) She tried to act like an adult was very polite and apppeared overly responsible. I recall saying to my husband I feel like she's putting on a show as all of her interactions appeared rehersed

She constantly switches personas...she uses baby talk and will be all sappy, or she attempts to sound like a super cool teenager but only sounds weird, a 30yr women in control of everything and quite professional. Or the darker sides; mean, slanderous and vindictive

After a month more behaviours surfaced.

My 2 nieces same age were at our family cottage. Both nieces got into a fight with each other and were competing for A's(foster daughter) friendship. The girls never fought and by the 2nd day we pleading to their parents that they wanted to go home. Nothing concrete given and to date refuse to attend any family functions if A is going to be there.

The lying stared...over nothing and for no reason. Each time A was confronted she was upset that we suspected a lie and even faced with hard proof would stick to her guns. She would cry and lure me in with no one cares, my own mother hates me. So I believe her at least 3x now only to discover the truth. Then the routine is dropped and there is zero remorse. Sometimes if a consequence is instated for lying she will confessed.

When caught her facial expression and body posture change. There is no remorse just anger over consequence or being exposed. Minutes later she can engage in a cheerful conversation without a hint of previous actions. When told consequences still applied her eyes always get icy and body posture changes. Its un-nerving

Stealing began....we have an open door policy based on mutal respect but quickly learned that social code was non existant in A. She would eat all of the strawberries all treats, all the ice cream ( she has never been denied food or treats), steal sons ipod(has her own) or hide it. Steal money when given an allowance ect. My daughter jewelry went missing most significantly a necklace her father gave her for graduating with honors. A is very jealous and spiteful towards our daughter who at 18 is unphased by A's odd behaiours but still thinks she a little "off". No one is exempted even the family puppy was subjected to this behaviour. Pups toys kept disappearing everyone search for them A included but were not found. Weeks later found them hidden in her room. When confronted she played dumb but 5 toys are hard to explain...she then said I hate that stupid thing it gets all the attention.

Both my almost adult children complained she freaks them out because she constantly lurks around the house and spies on them. My son says its just the way she looks at me. I keep telling them to be kind. But most of the time A prefers to be alone and spends an abnormal amount of time alone in her room and can not be coaxed out and becomes angry if not given the choice.

She continues to fixate on males in a very sexual manner and becomes angry when they don't give her attention. On my eldest graduation she had a bar-b-q, A had been with us for about 3-4 months. At this party, remember she's 11, she zero in on 2 very cute 18yr boys. Both real nice kids. They were kind to her and then... she turned cooky. She statred to make inapproprite comments innocent enough but very awkward for these young men(similar in context with our son) The boys informed us and kindly told her she was just a little girl and it wasn't cool . She then carved, "boys name" loves A in a table for all to see that night. She even got a lite-brite out and wrote "Boy's name loves me". Again everyone saw it. When confronted in private so as not too embarrass her she denied it and when I refused to back down she was very mad at me for not believing her and was completely unaware of how awkward/odd her behaviour was. Later she wrote both boys a letter(without my knowledge) chastising them for violating her trust by going to me and was attempting to punish them verbally. It was very hostile. Remember they just met that evening, shes 11 and there were 10 kids at the bar-b-q. Later when she found out that one of the boy's was dating my daughters friend she targeted this 18 girl saying unkind and untrue things about this girl and forgets to relay phone calls from this girl ect.

Then there was our neighbour across the street a 13yr boy. He too was nice to her. She built a shrine all about him(Played togehter twice)and slept under the window the closest she could get to his home. Again asked what was up and she seemed completly unaware of how odd this behaviour was. She never once considered wether or not any of these boys had feelings...its I like...I want...Its mine end of story. As it stands now this boy goes out of his way to avoid her, his Mom says he dosent't give any specific reason just that she creeps him out

We had to ban internet access as she was bullying female peers and we discovered that at school she was able to conn a teacher into using internet. There she had registered herself on an adult date site posted photos of herself but lied about her age. On our home computer we discovered she was reaserching how to attract a man using sex, how to capture a boy and how to preform oral sex.

She has no friends. None at Mothers home, none at old school or new one. She has 5 cousins around her age who she has no contact with, no aunt, uncle or grandparent inquire about her nor she of them. All of our previous foster kids had some support from other family members...not A. All of our attempts to introduce and initiate age appropriate female peer relations have failed. There are 7 girls in our immidiate neighbourhood all her age. Each and everyone they started off great, parents were buying lunches taking her and their children to special events then it just end. Usually within a week the girls refused to play with her, many hide from her. The girl next door cried when A and I knocked on door she hid behind her father. When I discuss this with neighbours (we are all on good terms )no one has any thing specific to identify she dosen't hit or asked them to "bade" things they just say that their daughters say she's weird and they feel uncomfortable around her

We put her in a new school this Sept the teacher was immediately drawn to her and advocated and constantly praised her. She very charming around adults. That lasted a month and a half...the teacher started noticing that any time A observed her giving attention to another student A targeted that child or complained that the child was bullying her. The teacher stated she has a mean streak and she has almost been suspended 2x. Again they either feel sorry for her..poor foster kid...or the behaviours although unkind not really all that bad.

"A" has difficulty with math but reads above average. She has been diagnosed with ADHD by the school and is on aderall to control this. She is in a specialized school program but teacher does'nt support placement as she functions at an average level barring social disfunction. Teacher notes that A targets the special needs kids calls them retards, says they're disgusting and again seems unaware of horrible she sounds.

We do not give A her medication on weekends and we see no difference in behaviours

A year into her stay with us and she continues to lie and steal. It dosent seemed to matter how much we do either way, we've tried restrictions rewards and praise all seem to have no effect. She is never remorseful is never embarrassed when caught and only on the rare occassion is upset when she can't get out of the consequence.

She constantly pits one person against the other tries to intimidate through making false claims(twice now she has had me investigated for abusing her) both times when she was caught in a major lie. When confronted she stated to her Children Aid workers that she was just so sad and just wanted to go home even though she really really likes us. She has done this type of behaviour to her mother, her teachers, and workers and peers.

She's a total control freak if allowed she would and has scheduled appointments, arrange transportation and takes on the role of a 30 year old. She knows where anything and everything is in our home even in areas such as our bedroom she's not supposed to be. She snoops and no place is left unexplored. She only gets caught because she is 11 and often slips up and tells on herself by mistake. For examble if I am looking for something her ego gets the best of her and says its in your night stand.

She needs constant reminders to change clothes, keeps everything(dirty tissues,scrap paper, food wrappers,ect) will not get rid of garbage when asked and becomes extremely angry when I dispose of garbage.

Knows everyone's schedule. Continues to lurk around, eaves drought constantly and is very very good at going unoticed. Just last week my son had several friends over and A was unaware that I had pulled in drive way. It was dark out but lights on so I could see everything from outside. What I observed was just weird and disturbing. A was slinking around the house her body posture was ...well creepy. I watched as she went from room to room then down I guess to spy on son. When she looked out the window and saw my car she went into kitchen and faked working on homework. As I walked in she was calm did'nt even bat an eye(she ran across house and didn't even miss a breath) she said Hello in her sappy charming exaggerated way and ask if I like some tea. When I told her I was standing outside for a while was looking in and was amazed at how much territory she could cover in a short time she was unphased. She pleaded that she did not know what I meant. I was specific and she said I didn't do that I said I saw you I stood and watched..she smirked and said I don't know what your talking about.

This child in the year that she has lived with us has never cried about being in care, never attempted to engage or get emotional/physical support from us. All of our other foster kids eventually bonded with us, playing, teasing, needing hugs, laughed and required comforting. Not this girl...nothing.

The only time I've witnessed her laughing is when I spilt a drink, drop and egg, my husband stubbed his toe and at my panicking when puppy got out and I was afraid she get hit by a car.

To date she is on a 12 month waiting list for counselling, assessments are also on hold. This Sept she will become legal ward of the province and my husband and I will be her "family" but we do not have the authority to direct or initiate any sort of treatment without consent from Children's Aid and they are very rigid about NOT attaching labels to children and they are her legal guardian.

No one has given anymore info that what I have let you all know. No one from the Agency seems convinced that there is anything wrong with child....maybe their right....but they also have never lived with this child and to be totally honest are far more concerned with maintaining a placement then looking deeply into issues. Anyways unlike my neighbours and her peers how can I explain it to the agency Hey this kid is kind of creepy, she's all consuming and has become a dominant force in our home its the world according to A, she's a phony, too charming, she lies, steals and manipulates. She shows no real emotion and doesnt seem to care about others, without sounding like a horrible person. All they see is this sad charming little girl who is struggling with being rejected by her mother...maybe they're right but how come she's never in a year shed a tear. How come she never smiles or laughs or needs people.

The reason for all this is this Sept my husband and I will have to make a major decision. Have her remain in our home for the next 9 yrs and hope with security, structure and caring we will provide an opportunity for this child to blossom or accept the fact that she is beyond our help (as we have come to suspect, either she's a budding Psychopath or a RAD kid and request she be placed with another home so that we can dedicate ourselfs to another child that we could better serve. The sad reality is there will never be a shortage of children to care for.

We are in need of others opinions. Prior to opening our home we honestly felt ALL children were entitled to be cared for, we never thought... what if they don't care.


A's Foster Mom
Posted by: skybluepaint

Re: General Discussion - 03/06/11 05:33 AM

She is beyond your help and you cannot blame yourself. All you can do is report her behavior and hope that she may get professional help. The contradiction between child and 30yo seems all too familiar in my experience. Poor forlorn child-like innocense versus condescending adult who knows better than anyone else. Something is wrong. You are right to question it and to report it.
Posted by: ABsfostermom

Re: General Discussion - 03/06/11 05:52 AM

Thanks so much for your reply
Posted by: concerned

Re: General Discussion - 03/06/11 11:29 PM

I agree with the previous response. After reading many comments on this site, seeing the destruction that these people cause, and seeing it first hand in my life, I would say emphatically, move on and help someone who can be helped. Otherwise you all might become helpless.
Posted by: ABsfostermom

Re: General Discussion - 03/07/11 08:54 PM

Thanks to both of you for your comments. The hardest part about all this is the gut ache both my husband and I are going through because what if were wrong. How cruel to push her away.Its like being on a emotional merry go round.
Is this how everyone feels who has to live with this type of individual. I just wish there was something more concrete.

AB's foster mom
Posted by: skybluepaint

Re: General Discussion - 03/08/11 06:03 AM

Yours is a hard decision. She may or may not be a psychopath. She may or may not turn out to be a good human being. The reality is she sounds like a very sexually precocious 11yo, which will only escalate as puberty progresses. No matter how much you try to teach her responsibility or about love, it seems she is mainly seeking attention and her sexuality is the means. You have to ask yourself if you want to put yourself through those years. Do you think you can stop her from pursuing that path? Looking forward, in my humble opinion, it sounds like a nightmare. No matter what you say or do, it may not make much of a difference. I know that is a terrible thing to say, and we all want to believe we can make a difference, but she may just need to figure out things for herself. You have to decide whether you want to be around while she does.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 03/08/11 08:17 PM

Hi ABsfostermom, welcome to the forum. I think your instincts and observations are telling you something is very wrong. Are any of your own children at risk by having her in your home? I hope you get a chance to read in the Family Section from parents/fosters in your exact situation. Years ago a foster mother was planning on leaving the state once the kid finished school due to fear of what might happen.

Video her room and anything you can do to further validate your observations so you can weigh the impact this will have on your own family. There are lots of ways to keep track of what she is up to without being in the room or waiting to hear it from others. Sadly in many cases people don't come forward and tell you the truth of their own experiences. If she has a PC it should be in the living room and there are also ways to track what she is doing. Unless she is a sharp techie a home network or check up on her History file to see what she is up to. There are cheap recorders that start recording when the phone is picked up that could be placed in another room where she wouldn't know where it was. Tread with caution. Think of yourself as a home detective and document what you can, that will help if you have to make the move to have her leave your lives. You will see and hear first hand and give you the affirmation of your decision.

Kids like this have been known to turn on the caretakers and cause a great deal of pain with false claims once they see they can't run the home. They divide and conquer families and create conflict and chaos and no one wins. Your primary family should be the first concern, don't let her rip that apart.

Posted by: skybluepaint

Re: General Discussion - 03/09/11 05:46 AM

Dianne gives some really good ideas for finding the 'concrete' evidence you are looking for. And I agree that the safety, welless, comfort, and support for your primary family should be your main concern.
Posted by: Kate

Re: General Discussion - 03/14/11 02:34 PM

Hi ABsfostermom,

You describe a lot of disturbing behaviors, but one that stands out starkly is the lack of friends. You can't know of course exactly what has transpired between her and various kids she's been introduced to and done things with, but the clear avoidance by all peers is a heavy indicator of something seriously awry. I would not want this girl living with me for 9 more years. I second the motion that you take Diane's advice and gather/assemble evidence of her anti-social behavior. If this girl is a psychopath (and her behaviors sure do fit it) retaining her with you is an invitation to trouble and misery.

aspects of your post that I can relate to are below:

My Psychopath sister had no empathy with others in childhood. She cried occasionally, but it was always and only when something had happened where she didn't get something SHE wanted. And she was sneaky, though not as much as the child you describe. At other kid's houses she wandered into bedrooms. For example, she'd use their upstairs bathroom but be gone an inordinately long time; I'd go up to find out if she was okay, and find her not in the bathroom but in the bedroom poking around. I'd say What are you doing?--c'mon back downstairs! She'd reply, " I'm not doing anything wrong! I just wanted to see what it looked like in here."

The shifting-personas behavior your 11-year-old foster girl displays, I experienced frequently, displayed by my father's 2nd wife, at the time a 59-year-old female psychopath. In fact, as I was reading your post I thought "jeez-louise, age is apparently irrelevant!" [to the manifestation of the disorder.]

My father's 2nd wife proved to be a viciously abusive psychopath.
He married her a year after my mother died; I was 30 and she was never a mother to me so I don't refer to her as step-mother.
(I've written about her in other posts so I won't rewrite those, here.)

She did it when she wanted something, was trying to manipulate people into doing something for her or giving her something she wanted.
She did it when she had been denied something she wanted.
She did it to distract people from a topic they were trying to pursue with her that she didn't want to discuss.
She did it when she was caught out in a lie, when questioned about or being confronted with having told, a falsehood.
And she did it when anyone attempted to question her about her behavior [unwarranted anti-social behaviors ranging from insulting rudeness to aggressive hostility.]

A curious thing about them was that she could go through them, bing-bing-bing, one after another. If one didn't work, switch gears and try another. After she'd been booked and released(for assaulting my Dad), she went to the county prosecutors office and unleashed a rainbow of personas, one after the other, to try to convince them she was innocent (but she didn't go into RAGE mode there)...she ended her performance in Unjustly Accused/Crocodile Tears persona, so "upset" at having been arrested and charged, that she coudln't stand and walk, so the poor thing had to be carried out of the building and driven home by officers. Their office was total chaos for the half-hour she was there. The assistant prosecutor phoned me at home afterwards, with questions about her.

She had a "sexualized Baby-Girl" Act:
She'd press up against my father and stroke his face, or sit on his lap and throw her arms around his neck,
"Is Daddy mad at his widdow girl?...don't be mad Daddy...I wuv you Daddy...I not trying to make you mad."

She had a "sexualized Hip-Chick" Act:
She'd walk up to my father, shove her pelvis against his and say (this and other things like it)
"If you want some of my honey Honey you'd better give me what I want! (wink!)"

She had an "Surprised-Innocent Act"
" What are you saying? I have NO idea what you're talking about! I never said [or did] anything of the kind. Where did you hear that lie?!

She had a "Sly Act"
"Don't think you can fool me,I know a lot more than you think I do."

And she did some sneaky info-collecting on people.(I caught her rifling through my purse once, there was nothing but basic stuff in it, entering the room from behind her I asked her why she was in my purse,--she startled ever so briefly and then lied " Oh, well... I have a headache and we're out of Tylenol and I thought you might have some." --[even if so, why not ASK me?]

She had an "Unjustly Accused act [aka Big-Crocodile-Tears" Act
"Bwaaa-haaa-waaah" (loud crying, whole body shuddering,and trembling to show how wounded she was by someone's false [TRUE!] allegations.
"I don't understand...why you(or they) are mean...I've always been good ...I've never did anything to deserve this persecution.."
> note: being held accountable for her own words and actions, even in polite and gentle ways, she always responded to by saying she was being "unfairly persecuted."

When none of the above ACTS "worked" to get what she wanted, or didn't derail conversations she didn't want to have, or didn't effectively manipulate people into silence, she erupted into ENRAGED MONSTER mode. It started out dead-calm and flat-voiced (no vocal affect)
"Now you've done it. You've MADE...ME...MAD. It's YOUR FAULT. How DARE you! I'll show YOU who's the QUEEN here! Then she'd grab up household items and start flinging them at the wall, and sometimes at the target person, howling - literally - with rage.

Sometimes she used a persona to sort of "fake-express" empathy or sympathy:
Baby: "Oh...ooh feels bad. Lemme give ooh a huggy and make it all better."
Hip-chick: "You should'a flipped that bastard the bird and told him to put it where the sun don't shine."
Posted by: veronique

Re: General Discussion - 05/28/11 03:21 PM

My mother would go to work when she was younger with urine on her clothes until she was sent home to change. I always thought she smelled like poop. One of my brothers is the same but they could be worse. I think my Mom has learned over the years to be more normal.
Posted by: veronique

Re: General Discussion - 05/28/11 05:08 PM

yes the emotional roller coaster is how it felt living with my Mom. I always feel guilty that if I am wrong about her then I will be judged as a bad person for turning her away but it never ends. The insanity just repeats and sucks the life from you more. An emotional vampire.
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/11/11 06:43 PM

My son was a fledgling psychopath from the time he was 4 --- his behavior was totally incorrigible and unafraid of punishment.
I could never take him anywhere, for he really got off embarrassing me.

This is a long story --- he's now a fully grown man, super rich, super successful and screwing people over left, right and centre, I'm sure.

I haven't seen the psychopath for 23 yrs, even tho we live in the same city.
I know he speaks badly about me behind my back --- and I'm sure if I was bleeding to death, he wouldn't lift a finger to help me.

After not thinking about this rotten human being --- I do not wish to call him my son --- it makes me too angry -- I'll from now on refer to him as the "kid from hell". Anyway, after all these yrs, I came across his Facebook profile, which really made me very, very angry.
He is, as I said, rich and successful --- and it turns out, married with twin boys.

I'm alone and hurting, and this psychopath has a successful life --- it's too much to bear.
He deserves to be in the gutter!

I've just finished reading SNAKES IN SUITS for the second time --- and could find him thru the pages of this book.

Ok, here is why I came here: I'm thinking about wanting to do harm to this creep and need to get support for that.

Feedback much appreciated!
Posted by: lisondesalpes

Re: General Discussion - 07/12/11 07:27 AM

What is "interesting" about psychopathic persons is that when they reach an old age they do not seem to acquire sensitivity to others, as we could expect from some other brutal individuals.
I am 61 and I've waited a whole lifetime to diagnose my mother, because her absence of affect and sheer brutality has left me in so much pain that it has always been difficult to make an objective assessment of the whole situation. In retrospect, i began my young adulthood with feelings of terror. I ended up emigrating to the us where I was diagnosed with "extensive damage". Psychopaths hit people at a time when they expect it the least, when off guard etc.
I believe there's a huge taboo about psychopathic disease in society, especially there's an appalling lack of literature concerning the impact of being raised by a psychopath. Thank you for this forum
Posted by: skybluepaint

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/12/11 09:44 AM

Probably most people who have come into contact with a psychopath have had fantasies of getting back at them. But it is really more than that... you want them to actually FEEL the pain they have put you in. You want them to have empathy. You want to bang on their chests and say, "Look at me. You hurt me. See how I am struggling. Feel my pain. Feel something!!" They never will. They can't feel. It isn't even necessarily intentional. They are totally oblivious, clueless, can't understand why other people have pain.

Having empathy requires having a concept of future and others. You have to be able to put yourself in their shoes. In other words, he would have to be able to imagine being a mother who loved her son and whose son disappointed her, who was getting older, alone and hurting. He SHOULD be able to imagine this even more once he is a parent, seeing how much he likes being a part of his children's lives and recognizing that connection, but he can't

This video is a really good illustration of how empathy evolved in human society. It helps explain how non-psychopaths relate to the world and what psychopaths are missing.

You will never be able to hurt him the way he has hurt you. The best you can do is work on improving your own life and care about yourself, do some self-nurturing. I am in the midst of that struggle myself, trying to pick up the pieces. There will always be times you remember the psychopath and their negative influence on your life, but it is a part of your life history and the further we move away from it, to close that chapter in history, the better.
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - 07/12/11 06:40 PM

Hi, I'm sorry, but I had to correct you about "psychopathic disease" --- it's NOT a disease --- it's faulty brain-wiring due to genetics and environmental influences.
As far as I know, Psychopathy is not listed in the Psychiatry books.
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/12/11 06:49 PM

Thanx for your reply.

I know they can't feel and don't care about that. Well, I care, but know the futility of it.

What I really wanna do is deactivate the brakes in his brand-new Mercedes --- he'd surely feel THAT!
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/12/11 07:23 PM

Hi, Diane:

My question is SHOULD I OR SHOULDN'T I??????

I have a psychopathic son I haven't seen in 23 yrs - he's successful and rich, and married w 2yr old twin boys.
I've never met the wife, but want to phone her and say:"I'm so'n so and need to tell you that you must never leave your husband alone w the kids 'cause you married a psychopath and thus are not safe w him - and neither are you, 'cause my ex is a misogynist and wife-beater - and in your shoes, Id take the kids and run."

I saw the boys w cuts and bruises in a dream last weekend.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/12/11 10:13 PM

Hi Sayit, welcome to our community.

Would you like to have your own thread so we can help you through this. Revenge never works with a Psychopath, but helping your process the anger may help you.

Your dream probably is based on reality is my take on it. If you read about those that were married to these monsters, none of them are in a winning position. We have many members who were raised by Psychopaths and I have yet to hear anyone describe their childhood as anywhere near happy. It is very complex for the children. His wife is trapped along with the kids more than likely. It is hard to imagine that she would stay with him but she may not have put together the pieces together and many times breaking away from a Psychopath is something hard for anyone on the outside to understand. She could still be under his spell or lost without anyone who would believe her if she tried to reach out for help.

I think we can help you process this horrible pain.

It must feel unbearable to see him so successful. Before you do decide what to do, how about if we have a chat about it? Clearly we can't decide for you but maybe in perspective it might help relieve some of the horrible pain you must be in.

He was born that way and there was nothing you could have done to have stopped him.

It would help you and others to understand how you discovered what he was and came to be able to say it. Most parents deal with a great deal of pain with these "kids from hell". Likely he has told people things about you, that is how they operate, he has to have some pathetic reason why he doesn't have his mother in his life so in order to pass it off, he has to be the victim.

Let me know if you would like to have a thread of your own because I think it would be best for you to talk this over and not let your anger drive you into a bad situation. They always win so revenge is never a good course, however in the end that will be your choice but I think sharing and having us to support you might help you work through this.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 07/13/11 02:08 AM

Hi lisondesalpe, welcome to our community.

There is a thread here with members who had mothers who were Psychopaths.

My Mother

If you are comfortable sharing your story we will look forward to reading it and offering any support we can.

Posted by: lisondesalpes

Re: General Discussion - 07/13/11 02:23 AM

Thanks for correcting me. I should have used the term syndrome instead. But i think i should be allowed to used terms however vague and incorrect to talk about something that is a taboo still and this, even in America. It is so much easier to correct someone on the form than dealing with the subject matter. Besides, putting words to what I've been through is the first step to my recovery if any.
The fact that I am calling my mother and elder brother ill is also a coping strategy that i do need to survive.
I don't care whether Ted Bundy's wiring was faulty or my mother's, all I know is that if you're around these people, and needless to say there's no escape when you're a child or ado, the impact is devastating and the risk is to become emotionally numb/inoperational or live in denial the rest of your life.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - 07/13/11 03:14 AM

Hi, I am sorry for any confusion, you must be in a great deal of pain and how you need to cope with your words must make it easier. Most people have a great deal of difficulty even using the word Psychopath because of the pain it brings back to them. It must have been very helpless as a child to be with your family. I hope you will share your story when you are comfortable. It has to be a challenge to even face what had happened growing up.

Posted by: NewStepmom

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/13/11 10:25 AM

Hi there, thank you Dianne for the site, I've been reading up on this condition just by thinking about the traits I see in my new husband's ex-wife, and behaviors I see in my new step-kids. I'm hoping to see some talk here and hopefully some tips to veer that monster's kids into being real human beings. They are a smidge too old (8 + 11, I fear, but I tend ever-hopeful).

Mom is one of the Snakes in Suits (which I am reading currently), and has targeted every sexual relationship she's had, and did so with my husband to get the kids I'm step-mom to. Oddly, but gratefully, she's not targeted me [yet] in any way, and actually goes out of her way to leave me out of things which is also a ploy I'm sure. In the interactions I have had with her, the pathological lying is apparent and so far, when I see it I kind of laugh, as if she must be counting on me [and everyone around her] to be as dumb as she seems to presume. Though, from what I understand, this is all a part of this type's ploy, to talk circles around folks' otherwise logical/rational "argument" or conversation. Fortunately (for my husband, but not for this poor guy), she targeted her former boss, he got fired after she left the company, but the kids were witness to it all, her "dating" this guy the week after my husband moved out of their house after being forced to live in the basement for a year. He had left his wife and kids already. Hideous.

I'm really afraid for the kids, and how I can help. The scariest I've seen from them so far, is the girl (7 y.o., then) taking what must have been considerable time to paint a bruise on her cheek, come down and explain she'd been hit in a snowball fight the previous day. I touched it, as it was quite blue (but pretty scarily darned good), and noticed I could wipe it off. I laugh a lot, didn't know quite about the extent of the ex-wife's horror yet, and so I laughed and asked what she was doing. She looked at me straight-faced, and just turned and walked away. Scary.

The ex-wife used to fake fainting while dating my husband, and also faked a suicide faking the pill-swallowing sounds, etc (phone). I've heard the new husband say she "loses her keys all the time," which I heard and it clicked; I'm sure it's her nonsense, still, to get others to run circles around her. The girl is turning 9 now, the boy is 11 and very overly materialistic (oddly for a boy), too embarrassed to be without the latest-greatest to get out of the car sometimes, and... my husband's not like that and I am definitely not, so... we're hoping. And I'm hoping to find some real directions about how to best work around this monster-mom, who is unable to save one cent, while she and her new husband earn around 600k a year. She spends relentlessly, and just on nonsense, with cars, vacations, and vacation homes thrown in seemingly just to ensure she saves nothing.

So... hi! Just a bit of my background and my interests here. I really am happy I'm not day-to-day with the monster, but am afraid of these kids' development. Would love to find some tips. The new husband is just discovering her greed and almost solely money-related concerns, after 5 years (including the 2 they were cheating on their spouses), which I hear-tell is causing difficulty. In a way I'd love to throw some anonymous tips at him, too, before she bleeds him dry as she did my husband. He seems to actually love her, and says he likes fighting with her, her being a "challenge"; I wonder when he will see the light. It's so much like a movie, and just so ugly.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/13/11 11:25 AM

Hi NewStepmom, welcome to our community, glad you found us. If you would like to get in depth to discuss this new crew you inherited I would be glad to open a new thread, if you open one just be sure to title it so others in your same boat will find it easier to join in.

Sounds like you are in for a ride. Do you and your husband have any pets in the home or plan on having children of your own?

Yes, the old suicide to get my way ploy, one thing to always keep in mind that in the mind of a Psychopath, they are always the victim. Sounds like you have a front row seat to a horror show but it is a good sign that your eyes are open and can brush it off in your mind but there are many factors here that need more exploring. Statistics show that even non Psychopaths who threaten suicide are calling out for help, it is the ones who just do it are the ones to be concerned about. Psychopaths don't kill themselves as a general practice, they are far to busy sucking the life out of anyone around them.

Do you suspect the kids are fledgling Psychopaths or like the experts tab them kids with conduct disorder? It is always good to explore if they are behaving in odd ways because of their mother or if the gene is in them also. Since the conscience forms between 3 and 5 about the only thing you can do is protect your home and husband from them disrupting things. Don't let them become the center of your life or you will lose sight of your own relationship. If you think they might just be acting out because of the mother then another approach could be taken. However, if you suspect they share their mother's gene then it is a new ballpark since these kids will be in your life, like it or not so you will need tools to survive it and keep your marriage strong. If your new husband is in denial then that is another thing that needs to be addressed to bring him to the same space you are in with your thinking. How did you decide to start looking to see what she was about, was it any particular incident? There are lot of cheating, lying greedy people but some alarm bell have had to go off to suspect she is exhibiting Psychopathic traits. I had a front row seat with the same type of woman, I didn't know about Psychopaths because this was before I started the forum over 14 years ago. After many years of being a consultant at Intel she arrived on the scene and took a dislike to me for no reason and convinced her boss who was a senior VP of all kinds of things that were lies. I about fell over when I read the depositions about the lies she convinced him about me, I had to sue to force her (Intel) from stealing my designs and it wasn't long after that she took down the VP who supported and believed her.I was well known and had been an employee before becoming a long term contractor yet she who was new and was believed over my long track record. So there is that thin line that needs to be explored. I only really figured out why when I started exploring Psychopaths, not because of her but because when I thought back I remembered the day my alarm bells went off and it was triggered by the evil look she let loose one day, when you get a look at the unmasked eyes of a Psychopath you don't forget it, I can still remember exactly where I was standing when pure evil came my direction. Then I could eliminate my original thoughts that perhaps she was borderline or just a rotten person.

Is the new husband the one who was living in the basement or was that the boss she got fired?

How often do the kids come to visit aka wreck havoc in your life? If I had any concerns about them like you seem to be expressing personally I would put cameras in the house and never leave them out of your view (with the cameras). The cameras are pretty cheap these days and you can even watch them from your computer to see what they are really up to. Google nanny cams.

Warning the new husband would probably not be a good move because it will more likely than not get back to her immediately and she will turn her focus on you. Don't think that someday she won't turn on your because anyone in their range is fair game. The way to be with her is to stay out of her radar as much as possible, when she lies, don't do anything unless it could cause some harm. Does your husband see all of this the same way you are? Sometimes it takes a fresh look and you have the distance to probably see things more clearly.

I would put on your detective hat because you are in a situation that you can't just take a walk from but you don't want to let the chaos ruin your relationship with your new husband.

It would be critical first step to figure out if the kids are modeling behavior or if you have a bigger problem on your hands. Modeling behavior there is always things that can be done to adjust, conduct disorder aka Fledgling Psychopaths is another issue. I think as starter I would put in cameras and observe. If the kids are modeling behavior then as responsible adults they need help. If you read the stories here about helpless children now adults raised by them you would need to try to do something. However, I would be cautious because if they do indeed have the gene, I sure wouldn't put up a fight to have them live with you full time.

I'll be around and checking back to see what direction you want support with and if you want to continue I can move these posts to a new thread. You need to decide if the kids need protection or if you need protection from them. They can do all kind of rotten things like blame you for abuse etc. so information is power to know what you are dealing with.


Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - 07/15/11 04:56 PM

Hi, I get you!
I just thought not calling it an illness is beneficial 'cause psychopaths can't use the "mental illness" label.
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/15/11 05:09 PM

Hello, Di:
thanx a lot 4 ur reply.

I recently taught myself to use my laptop - thus navigating on sites is still foreign to me.
yes, I'm interested in a thread, once I figure out how to use it.
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/15/11 05:45 PM

Hi, Di:

Did you ever read SNAKES IN SUITS?
The authors talk about "psychopathic fiction" - where nothing is real - faking it every-which-way.

This is what I don't get: when the psychopath is married with children, how long can he maintain the fiction before found out. For instance: his wife or child gets sick and the psychopath would have to fake caring.

I can see thru anything that's fake - I mean, it's not brain science.
I think I could see thru the [censored] in about a week by asking the right questions and reading face and body language.

I think these people - the ones who marry psychopaths, must be naive, lacking in life-experience, or needy, or desperate, or whatever.

I was 19, so had the excuse of being inexperienced - and had no parental support.

I think the woman my son married is a greedy bitch 'cause my son is worth about 20 million - so I guess I could say she deserves what's coming to her.

Interestingly, when my son, the kid from hell was 8 yrs old, he announced he's going to be rich - imagine at that age!
We had his intelligence tested and it turned out he was way beyond his yrs. He understood early on that rich people get away with stuff the rest of us don't - this is truly the case. He uses his money to manipulate and exploit people to the max- and will abuse his wife as he sees fit - and she'll tolerate it because hubby is rich.

I hear time and again you can't hurt a psychopath, but they've their achille's heel.
I see nothing wrong with revenge, as long as my safety is assured - it could be a healing thing.

So long 4 now!
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/15/11 07:55 PM

Hi Sayit,

I can understand your anger but I would suggest you might read the threads here about revenge, I can look them up in a bit and post them. I do think that perhaps we should focus on your issues with your son and leave his wife out of the equation. She is a victim, we don't know anything about her but we can hopefully helping you resolve your pain and feelings toward your son. I doubt she is happy no matter how much money your son has.

If that is okay with you then I'll get a thread set up or find one that is discussing a parents issues with having a Psychopath for a kid.

I would feel empathy for her, I doubt her life is a bed of roses.

I'll be back in a bit to look up some information to post for you about revenge.


I think these people - the ones who marry psychopaths, must be naive, lacking in life-experience, or needy, or desperate, or whatever.

Based on the last 14+ years of providing support for victims I would prefer not to judge how they get involved with a Psychopath because from my experience the profile of victims they are kind, caring and some of the nicest people a person could know. They deserve our respect and kindness to help them.
Posted by: starry

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/16/11 03:57 AM

I think these people - the ones who marry psychopaths, must be naive, lacking in life-experience, or needy, or desperate, or whatever.'

It's really upsetting to read this.
Posted by: starry

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/16/11 04:04 AM

I'm really shocked that someone could even think this.

I wouldn't say that any of my dad's wives/victims were 'naive, lacking in life-experience, or needy, or desperate, or whatever.' I include my mum in this.

I would say they were all bright, sparky, intelligent women who were deliberately targeted, abused (and in one case for sure almost killed) by a very violent and abusive man.

That's where the blame lies. Not with the victim/survivor but with the abuser.
Posted by: skybluepaint

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/16/11 08:27 AM

I would have to agree with Starry and Dianne that the people who get involved with psychopaths are not necessarily naive, lacking in life experience, etc.

In my case, I would say it was the opposite. The psychopath was young, naive, lacking in life experience, needy, and desperate. I became her target through which she could gain some experience. I became her friend when she needed a friend, her counselor when she needed help with her problems, her lover. When a new 'friend' came along, she recruited him as her counselor, asked for help with her problems, and used him as her lover. It was like a cut-and-paste script. NOW I could see through it, but at the time there was no way for me to know.

Psychopaths can seem like these lost souls and you want to help them. I have graduate degrees, plenty of street smarts and relationship experience and am not easily fooled. Yet, the psychopath's plight, the tale of woe they use to lure you in, and the flattery are pretty overwhelming. Most usual relationships don't start out with helping someone with their problems. However, unless you know that "playing the victim" is a tool of the psychopath, you don't see that as a warning sign. In fact, you see it as unique, special, that you first bonded emotionally by helping the person out and you grew close. It seems innocent from an outside perspective, but it is far from innocent for the psychopath who could practically reenact the whole scene in their sleep.

Psychopaths have a confounding way with words as well. They are adept at using spoken and written words to achieve their goals, and yet sometimes their use of language is a bit off. If someone said, "I looked into your eyes and I saw love," most people would fill in the blanks and think it was a poetic way of saying I love you. What it really means to the psychopath is that you obviously love me. Even though I've taken a linguistics course, I wouldn't have analyzed the phrase; I took it for granted that they were saying they love me. No matter how intelligent you are, you make assumptions that the person you are interacting with is human and is speaking and acting in a human way. But, they aren't.

I would compromise with you that in addition to the empathy and wanting to help the psychopath there could be a little something in the victim's life, the person who gets involved with them, that predisposes them to falling for the psychopath. In my case, I was going through a period of low self-esteem and the psychopath picked up on that and built it up. I wasn't needy or desperate, but was vulnerable. I guess we all have our vulnerabilities. We just don't expect to have to be on guard so that people don't take advantage of them.
Posted by: starry

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/16/11 08:38 AM

That's exactly it. Everyone in this world has a vulnerability. Everyone.

And psychopaths are highly skilled at spotting that and working on it, because they spend their lives doing it, and because their lives depend on it.

Again, the responsibility isn't that of the 'victim', but the that of the psychopath.
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/18/11 06:49 PM

Hello to all I offended: didn't mean to offend anyone, but I still believe I'm right in what I said as far as "the kid from hell" is concerned. He amassed a fortune and found someone greedy for his money - I'm sorry, but this to me is glaringly obvious, but obviously NOT true for you.
I'm NOT judging anyone here; as we all have different experiences.
I'm sorry you took this so personally.
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/18/11 07:00 PM

No, I think it's a shared responsibility.
Before I marry and have children with someone, I make darn well sure I know who my future husband really is.
Of course, this is easy to say now, well into my middle years 'cause when I was young and stupid, I married a psychopath - would've married anyone just to get out of my parents' home.

When one is 37 with lots of family support, "young and stupid" is not an excuse.
In my case, I find it offensive and hurtful they never thought enough of me to contact me 'cause I was the missing link.
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/18/11 07:50 PM


What's so infuriating about psychopaths is their uncanny ability to do god-awful things without feeling anything - and because of that, they live long and happy lives.
I gave birth to the kid from hell - this is what i'll call him from now on 'cause "son" is inappropriate.
He's successful and rich, as I said - and everything seems to be going his way - he's got all the trappings of success and bragging about it nonstop on the net.

He's been disparaging me behind my back for 20 plus yrs, telling people I abandoned him and am a crybaby 'cause I used to cry a lot after losing my father and dealing with this incorrigible kid. And while it's true I shipped him off to his father and new wife, this fledgling 8 yr old psychopath couldn't know about "abandonment", for he never bonded with me or anyone else.
The REAL reason the kid from hell couldn't care less about me is the fact HE HAS NO USE FOR ME - that's how psychopaths operate - and the glaring reality he's alive thanx to me is of no relevance to this scoundrel.
MONEY, SEX, POWER - that's the name of the game.
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/18/11 08:21 PM

Hi, Diane:

I feel concerned I won't be able to get the support I need here 'cause you're opposed to vengeance.
Psychopaths do whatever they see fit to do to our lives with impunity - and we, the ones on the receiving end are supposed to take the abuse and move on with our lives - this makes no sense to me!

Evolutionary psychologists tell us that revenge is normal - an eye for an eye......
Barak Obama announced "America has killed Osama bin Laden" - and Americans cheered, me included.

I think whether one needs to exact revenge is a personal decision and I would be in favor to support people choosing to do that. However, only if the avenger's safety is assured - otherwise, NO!

I think getting even with the psychopath would mitigate the damage done to some extent - I'm sure - just as long as one is not found out or end up in jail.

Look, I may never have the nerve to do anything retaliatory, but if I do, do not wish to be seen in a negative light because of it.
Meanwhile, I was hoping for an answer to my question SHOULD I OR SHOULDN'T I?
Maybe I should've said WHAT WOULD YOU DO IN MY PLACE?
Maybe, just maybe, said phonecall would settle things for me.

Sincerely, Sayit
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/18/11 08:45 PM

Hi Sayit, you are welcome to be here to get support. Please let's stick with your subject about your "kid from hell", you need to leave out your thoughts about why or how his wife got involved, she is a victim. You are a victim of your son and we will help you with that but I must ask that you not bring his wife into the conversation in a negative manner.

I will be back later and give you the link that is here talking about revenge. The short and simple to your question is that my personal opinion that revenge of any form including a phone call can be dangerous when dealing with a Psychopath. It will only draw you into his evil radar.

I'll get that link in a bit.

Posted by: starry

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/19/11 01:46 AM

What would I do? Walk away. Walk in the opposite direction, keep walking, and don't look back.

Psychopaths want more than anything to elicit some kind of reaction from you. Any kind of reaction.

Once they have a reaction, they have your attention. And they'll use that, and keep using that, they'll up the stakes further and further, draw you closer and closer, demand more and more of your attention, drain more and more of your energy, until your every waking minute is about them, until your whole being is consumed with them, until you can't function because of them.

They'll never give you want you want (whatever it is) because it's not in their interest. Only you have the capacity to give yourself what you want.
Posted by: concerned

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/19/11 08:00 AM

Hi Sayit

The psychopath in my life is married to my daughter and is the father of my granddaughter. Believe me, I would LOVE revenge. I've even tried it a few times, and it always backfired and he was able to work it to his advantage.

The experts on Psychopaths say - No Contact - that is how to deal with a Psychopath. Because I have a close relationship with my granddaughter, and I have read on here what kind of trauma these children go through, I choose to have limited contact for her sake. But, over the last 5 years I've learned, with the help of God, many friends, and the kind people here, that I can't beat him at his game because I am not like him.

Your anger is understandable. Your pain is understandable. No one can tell you how to feel. You asked if you should or shouldn't and you asked what would I do?

I'm speaking from my heart when I say that I would beat him at his game if that was possible. I'm speaking from experience and from my mind when I now say that I would not. To seek revenge would allow him to consume my life and my thoughts. I would have to become more like him to try to beat him. The rest of my life is better spent on the people and things that are kind and positive and happy.

Starry said it very well.
Posted by: skybluepaint

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/19/11 12:53 PM


Don't worry, I didn't take your previous comments personally. I had just wanted to point out that you don't have to be naive, lacking in life experiences, needy, etc. in order to fall for a psychopath and that often the psychopath themselves will act out those very characteristics which makes you feel sorry for them and get lured in.

The man my psychopath left me for was significantly older than her and she had never been with a man (I'm a woman),so I initially believed she was naive and had fallen prey to this smooth older guy who gave her a bunch of bad advice as her new "counselor". I saw her as the victim, just as she wanted me to believe. In the end, it was the older guy who called her a psychopath and said she "shouldn't be having sex with her counselor." From hearing his words through her, and knowing she had done the same thing with me, lured me in as her counselor, I began to research psychopaths and realize who she was.

Just as I attributed lots of bad qualities to the man who got involved with my psychopath, you seem to attribute many bad qualities to your son from hell's wife. Some of them may be true. We really can't say without actually knowing them. Very likely your boy from hell's wife is a victim to his carefully crafted words, lies, flattery, gifts, etc., all of which seem extremely genuine at the time, but ultimately are not. If you were to meet her, she might be a very nice person. If you tried to warn her who the boy from hell really is, in case his mask hasn't slipped yet, you might end up enraging him and he would retaliate against her.

Whether you try to warn the family who he really is for the sake of the wife and kids or you try to seek revenge directly against him, you run the risk of enraging him putting them and yourself in greater danger. You also will end up hurting yourself, because you will most likely not get the revenge you seek and will dig yourself further down a hole of anger, hurt, depression, and seeking more revenge. The best thing you can do is get far, far away from him, try to put him out of your mind and move on. When my psychopath wrote the words, "Do not write, call, or come to see me," I wish I had made DAMN sure that she couldn't write, call, or come to see me, changing my email, phone number, and moving apartments. As a good friend advised me, "When someone puts a mile between us, I put ten between us." THAT would've been the best revenge, for her to believe that I just didn't care, that she was worthless, meaningless in my life. Instead, I went into shock, trying to figure it out, and desperately make contact. I created 20 new email accounts trying to get through to her as she'd block my texts one by one. I'd call and she'd talk happily sometimes. Other times she wouldn't answer or would scream at me. I got horribly hurt by the betrayal, was accused of verbal abuse and then listened to all of my faults and 'wrongdoings' from a 4yr relationship listed to me one by one. I became an alcoholic, gained 30 lbs, and actually became verbally abusive (they love it when you turn into who they want you to be). I invited her on two vacations from hell in hopes of reconciliation (both times she physically abused me and cried a copious amount of fake tears to draw me back in). I became depressed, passively suicidal, and lost my job. It was the absolute worst 15 months of my life. In the last two months, I have gone through rehab, counseling, meditation, moved back home and am now with the help of myself, this forum, and my family, trying to put my life back together and start over.

So, I'm sorry to go into this whole lengthy detail of my crazy, pathetic life,and it would probably be better for me to vent on my own thread, but the point I want to make is.... Who looks like the crazy one? The person who calmly, cooly walked away without any feeling at all, they just slipped quietly away or the person who desperately wants to right a wrong, prove a point, get back or realize something that was probably never there in the first place. I am sad that I let this person have that power over me, to drag my dignity and self-respect into the ground, but I did. I couldn't accept it. I couldn't believe it, because when you are the object of the psychopath's desire, the one thing they are intently focused on devouring at the time, it feels incredibly powerful. If his wife is under his spell, there is most certainly not any way you can get help from her or convince her of anything.

The best thing, I'd agree with the others, is to beat him at his game. Run far, far away.
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/20/11 05:25 PM

Hi, thanx 4 ur reply.
Pls let me know later on how to connect 2 aforementioned link - S
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/20/11 05:32 PM

Hi, thank you for your very thoughtful reply - S
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/20/11 05:40 PM

Hi, thanks for your helpful reply.
I found particularly helpful "when his wife is under his spell, etc.....), which she most certainly must be - with dollar signs written all over, I'm sure.

At the moment I feel angry and sad that my need for revenge cannot be satisfied - S
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/20/11 05:49 PM

Hi, Diane - I have trouble navigating on this site - can't find what I need.
If there's an easy way to explain it, pls do so, as I'm still a newbie.
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/20/11 05:56 PM

Hi, thank you for your thoughtful reply.
Honestly, right now I feel mad and sad that my need for revenge cannot be satisfied - S
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/20/11 06:09 PM

Hi, starry:

Right now I feel mad and disappointed that my need to retaliate can't be satisfied.

I guess if my life was more to my liking, I'd be less bothered by Mr. Psychopath, but it so happens I have no family support and my friends are not really close enough to share this stuff.

The good news is I promised myself NOT to check the psychopath's Facebook anymore 'cause it fuels my ire.

There's a lot to read here- and should take the time and effort to read it all - trouble is I've got ADD, so find it difficult, but I'll do it!
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/20/11 06:28 PM

Hi Sayit, I am sorry, I'll look up the revenge thread in a couple of hours, I promise.

Yes, read, read and read and you will understand better how revenge will only cause you harm.

Please speak kindly of her, all the money in the world doesn't make a victim happy. Who knows he might be very tight with money when it comes to her. It is all about show for him so I am sure any money that gets spent is under his tight control. If he wants her to be his arm piece, certainly he will buy her nice clothes. If there was ever a victim in a relationship with a Psychopath who was happy because they were living with the devil to have "things" they have yet to ever show up here bragging how money bought them happiness. In the end he would given the chance leave her pushing a shopping cart and never part with a dime to support his own family.

Money does not buy happiness. I would rather die an old lady in a crumbling down house with a 100 cats than trade places with her.

Let's stick to "the kid from hell", okay?


Well, you have us to listen to you and hopefully help you. We understand and want to help you.

That is wise to stop checking his Facebook, smart move.
Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/22/11 05:58 PM

Hello, Diane:
Thanx for the link, but you're not gonna be happy with me about what I'm about to say.

I'm sorry, but I can't "speak kindly of her" 'cause I don't consider her a victim - and here's why: any woman interested in marrying a guy who despises his mother and speaks ill of her and marries him anyway, deserves what's coming to her - the wife, that is. SHE'S NO VICTIM! No one held a gun to her head and said "you must marry this guy". Any decent, integritous woman would've said: "listen, I won't marry you 'cause I don't like the things you say about your mother." But NOOOOOO, it's all about money and greed - and I'm sure I'm right about this, or wouldn't be saying it, ok?

Truth is, I hate the wife's guts and have zero sympathy for her, but really feel very sorry for the children- and that's why I wanted to make aforementioned call - not out of revenge.

Sincerely, Sayit
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/22/11 06:04 PM

Hi Sayit, no I am not happy, it is against the way we operate as a community. She is a victim, you don't know her and you don't have to speak kindly about her (just leave her out of the issues) you are trying to resolve with "the kid from hell" but you do need to tone down the way you are speaking about her. We would be glad to support you with "the kid from hell".

But NOOOOOO, it's all about money and greed - and I'm sure I'm right about this, wouldn't be saying it, ok?
Most all Psychopaths speak ill of their family in order to isolate the victim. There is no way you can be sure of this, it goes against what the dynamics a victim suffers when involved with a Psychopath, I can assure you her life is not a charming one for herself or the children. If you think "the kid from hell" treated you poorly, try to reach deep to understand what hell her life must be like.

Speaking ill of her is not acceptable here. If you would like to continue to work through the issues around "the kid from hell" you are more than welcome to do so, however she is not to be referred to in any negative manner. We do not support blaming the victim in any form. She and the children are all victims.

You can stay and we are glad to support you but will not accept blaming his wife for anything, she deserves compassion.

Posted by: Sayit

Re: General Discussion - Part 1 - 07/22/11 06:25 PM

Dianne, ok, I'll tone it down, but feel I'm absolutely right about what I'm saying - don't have to know her - intuition, I guess.
You say psychopaths speak ill of their families to isolate victims - well, the kid from hell spoke ill of me in his teens, so nothing new.

I'm sorry to hear "it's against the way we operate as a community" - that means I can't say what I believe to be right.