Adopted Child & RAD

Posted by: DadofRad

Adopted Child & RAD - 07/20/14 06:38 PM

I was blown away when I found your online group and started reading the posts on adopted child. We have felt so alone in our struggle. And even after hearing of adopted kids with similar problems, it was so strange to hear your similarities which seemed to match almost perfectly. Equally strange is that these symptoms are so similar, yet the professional community has a hard time recognizing them and establishing a solid diagnosis:

• Violent and aggressive at home but acts normal at school
• Not attached to us. Doesn't miss us when he's gone or anxious about being separated
• Shows no remorse for any bad behavior. No sign of really knowing his behaviors are wrong or harmful.
• Lies about us and others, wants to get people in trouble and accuse others of abuse.
• Premeditated ways he can get even or get someone in trouble.
• Regularly threatens to kill or hurt people and children.
• When no one’s looking he will 'accidentally' hurt another child or intentionally lash out.
• Will randomly make a violent gesture behind someone’s back with a pencil or butter knife.
• Destroys his property and others intentionally
• In a rage he will curse uncontrollable for 10-30 minutes straight, throw chairs, etc.
• All form of affection appear genuine to outsiders but the family knows it's insincere.
• Uses feces and urine to get even with us when he is sent to his room. Pees and poops on carpet, furniture, etc.
• Half the counselors and teachers he has don't see his problems because he has them fooled.
• People judge us as bad parents because we are strict with him or treat him differently than the other children and automatically assume the problem is at home.
• He reverts to baby talk.
• He is gifted with language and appears intelligent, but makes no meaningful connections with consequences.
• Acts out sexually, tried to pull his sisters pants off twice, asked an adult boy to show him his privates, looks up adult searches online, streaks through the house flaunting at mom and sister (he is only ten)
• Has attempted to choke another child, thrown rocks at children, hit, kicked, and stomped on sister’s head.
• Tried to push his sister down the stairs, regularly tries to trip his mother on the stairs, even when she is holding the baby.
• Has attempted to poison his sister and asked about poison that would kill.
• Has been on most of the psychotropic drugs which have only decreased the frequency of psychotic behavior.
• Has visual hallucinations, hears voice that tell him to hurt others.
• Is obsessed with his baby brother and has raised a butter knife in a threatening way at him before.
• His behavior gets worse each year.

Long story short. He was adopted from India at 17 months. He has an older (biological to us) sister who is 11. We just had a baby last year (miracle, we were infertile). As a toddler, we saw that he was aggressive and prone to fits but not too serious. But things got worse. We tried homeschooling, but by fourth grade he was too much to handle. During the fourth grade public school year we hospitalized him for violently acting out in aftercare. We pushed the school to get him evaluated and finally they saw he needed an ESE school. His behavior continued to deteriorate at home while at the ESE school they ‘didn’t see much behavioral problems’. We hospitalized him again in December for home violence and threats. The school assigned us a case worker who saw the problems clearly and recommended a residential treatment program. Somehow we got approved for the Residential Treatment, got Medicaid, and admitted him in April. For the first two months they didn't see the problems and invalidated us. In the third month after stopping his meds, they see the real him. They only diagnosed him with RAD and ADHD so far although other docs have diagnosed him more severely. They told us frankly that there isn’t much that can be done treatment wise and he most likely will not get better. He will most likely be returned to us by Christmas.

I have a question about diagnosis. On this site the term psychopath is used everywhere, but the DSM manual doesn't use that anymore and only uses psychotic disorder and personality disorders. Neither can be applied to children. It looks like CD is the standard for children and pre-requisite for adult’s psychotics or personality disorder. No one has ever diagnosed him with CD but this seems like a no brainer. Are clinicians hesitant to give CD diagnosis? Why do you use the term psychopath if it's not professionally recognized? Semantics aside, I totally relate with everything I’ve seen posted here including your shattered hopes, desperations, fears, and frustrations dealing with not only a difficult and dangerous child but also a society that is not capable of recognizing the problem and helping us.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 07/20/14 08:59 PM

Hi DadofRad, welcome to our community.

I will try my best to answer your questions. I have never really been clear about what is up with diagnosing children; it seems to be all over the map. The test that Hare has for adults has a new test for as early as 13 (a youth version) and that just came out a couple of years ago. Typically, Conduct Disorder (CD) seems to be code for fledgling Psychopaths. There seems to be a cottage industry around the RAD diagnosis. I used to read at their forum, and my general observation was a lot of blame towards the birth parents, and their methods seemed to be to hug it out. I could have read it wrong, but that was my general impression. They have a pretty active forum over at Delphi Forums.

We do have a few parents who are in the same situation as you are in with adopted children so hopefully they might pop in and add their views on the RAD debate. I think a lot of people have fears about diagnosing children. I have to agree with that but if everything else is ruled out what is left? I would think that every step, including what these kids eat would have to be evaluated. For example, we have this explosion of kids with ADHD, and some studies will show that pumping kids full of sugar in the morning makes them less likely to be able to sit still and concentrate. Do they need medications? Do they really have underlying issues, all huge questions? I am also not sure that giving young children drugs while their brains are developing is a good direction but really if someone has one of these kids who am I to say that drugs wouldn’t be a solution.

All in all, it brings up a ton of questions that hopefully we can exchange information about with your situation. I know one thing is for sure I wouldn’t trade places with you for all the tea in China.

There is a lot of confusion over what to name this disorder, it is clear it is in the personality disorder cluster. When I started the forum over 18 years ago I just picked Psychopaths as it seemed like the more accurate term and was more common at the time. Now it seems like people split between Psychopath and Psychopaths. I think in most people's minds the term Psychopath seems more like a well socialized type that is probably less likely to hide around in the bushes killing strangers. The term psychopath seems to define what people think of someone like Ted Bundy. In my mind, the issue is whatever the term the dividing line is they don’t have a conscience. And there is no changing them, we can just change and adapt how we deal with them. Therapy will make the situation worse so what are we left with?

I would like to think there is some clear reason why parents have to struggle and get thought of as being the crazy one in the room, but to date, I really can’t answer that question. Maybe because I have only “studied” what I have observed my mind is more open to things, and I don’t have any reason to hide the truth from anyone.

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 07/22/14 05:07 AM

Thank you for your comments and understanding.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 07/22/14 10:29 AM

Hi DadofRad, As I recall only a couple of adoptive parents have talked about giving up their rights. If you click on any members name their posts will come up. If you go to this thread and look for a member named: heartbroken you can click on the name and see the discussion. I think it will depend on your state and a lot of other factors but this person (hearbroken) found it wasn't going to be something that would work as it would put their bio kids at risk.

It is down toward the end of this thread:
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 05/23/15 06:31 PM

Thank you for you response. Sorry it has taken so long to respond. We have had our RAD kid in a in therapeutic program and group home for just over a year, but it is ending now. We are afraid of his return and very worried. His behaviors continue to be dangerous. He did more accusing the staff of abuse there than I had seen before. He has also increased his cursing and kicking and attacking adults and children. Additionally he has a history of running away now. It was obvious while he was gone that he really was not attached or missing us, just missing some of the things we do. He now has only RAD and mood disorder diagnosed. The institutions and the doctors were terrible about reporting his behavior and being honest about his dangers. They regularly minimized or did not report some serious conduct. I personally believe he is not RAD but a ASPD. One thing RAD he doesn't have is lack of trust. He knows us and trusts us, he just tries to instigate all the time.

One counselor we had was really good. She recognized he would never work in our family and actually recommended abandoning him at the program and to get a lawyer. It does happen, but it is a criminal charge of felony. After speaking with lawyers we found in our state convictions are rare especially if you have all the dangerous behavior documentation which I have. The other children are usually not taken away, but there is a risk and you never know what type of lawyer you will get. We are considering this for our second SIPP. Also they said the doctor could write a letter that he is unfit for home life (hard to get) in which case you could release him to the foster system without charges.

Questions. How did you find respit? Family and friends.
You mentioned right brain is inactive, have you had her scanned by a neurologist? Can a neurologist detect a Psychopath?
Have you ever institutionalize her? What was the outcome?
Is yours unsafe and attacks others?
Did the skills you learned about RAD help decrease the dangers in the home? If so how?
Has anyone ever found boarding schools with scholarships or re-adoption options feasible?

Thanks DADofRAD
Posted by: Notmyfault

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 11/07/15 11:14 PM

I am answering as a once foster and adopted child myself. As I found more and more family and biological siblings I found there were a lot of personality disordered in the family tree and also a lot of victims of psychopaths. We grew up apart, but have been blown away by this fact. My theory has always been , that I think it is a higher percentage of adopted children i, because I believe it is genetic . Often children in the system have come from those who have become pregnant under often terrible circumstances. Rape, incest, molestation. This is not always the case but it does exist, and often. These children were born this way and then coupled with the fact that adoption in itself depends on having these children bond, but they can't. It can become a nightmare. What should be done with these children? Let's be fair even love can only go so far and I think these situations are less likely to have the denial and drive a natural parent will have for their own blood.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 11/08/15 06:56 AM

Hi Notmyfault, welcome to our community. I am very happy that you have joined us.

Full disclosure here, Notmyfault and I crossed paths many years ago at a site where my forum was hosted. I am very happy to see you again and know that you can really help the conversation.

I know you have an experience that is something we all can learn from. I hope when you are comfortable you can maybe start a discussion thread and tell us more about your early years and experience in the system.

I have this thought that some of these kids end up in care for the reasons you state. I also think they get rejected by the bio parents because of attachment. Perhaps it is the kids who reject the parents? I don't know or in your case, the parents are disordered and don't attach to the kids. It is quite a huge conversation but those are my thoughts. When I used to read over the Delphi forum the major contributors were foster or grandparents. There was a lot of blaming the parents going on so I didn't feel like I was learning the key to this.

What role did the bio parents have and what role did the fledgling psychopathic child have?

Posted by: Notmyfault

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 11/09/15 02:54 PM

I believe the child who is born psychopathic is unable to bond. This does not mean the bio parents were capable of bonding either as that assumes too much that all parents are alike' You can count more on psychopaths being alike. But if the psychopathic child is also in a dysfunctional home the cocktail can be super explosive. Too often well meaning people think the answer is hitting the child. This behavior just fuels the child's anger. In my case the bonding had been interrupted numerous times. I though am not a psychopath so it caused more self destructive damage and someone who became quite vulnerable to this personality type. My personal story is Atypical. I was born to a mentally disturbed woman who had already left her first 4 children at a babysitters and did not return. She then had My sister and I with a new husband. Our father was a naval Engineer and never home. When I was 9 months old , my 2 year old sister would be left alone in the care of our two great danes. I was left in a dresser drawer with my sister to care for me. as with the others she eventually did not return and because of neighbors hearing the constant crying welfare had been brought in. We were found in total squalor and I was unresponsive and believed to be dead. This was in 1955 before legal abortions were available. Adoptions were far easier to do. Neighbors got together and rescued my sister and I. thru these neighbors we both became adopted, though separately. This information only became available to me within the last 2 years when I found my sister and we pieced our knowledge together. The story of the actual adoption is rather bizarre and I will start a new thread to explain this.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 01/01/16 08:33 PM

Thanks for replying. I have long suspected biological reasons as the main cause. We know nothing of the birth parents except the mothers first name. However, we know the orphanage provided a lot of one to one care and he actually appeared to be bonded to some care givers and to me when he was a toddler. It is difficult for us not to assume all adoptions are this horrible, but we know they are not. Many do bond and become functional adults. This is why we do not believe RAD is completely accurate for him, but it's as close to his real diagnosis as we can get, apart from conduct disorder which he has also been given. In my judgement, I don't believe psychopaths are made, I think they are born. But I only know my experience.
Posted by: BecazofGrace

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 01/02/16 08:49 PM

I'm new here & not completely sure this is the best place to post but what you all are talking about is almost a repeat of our last 15 years. We adopted 2 sons, 1/2 brothers, same bio mom. The oldest was 4 yrs, the youngest left his BM at 3 days & was in our care from that point. They are now 17 & 14. The youngest is awesome. I won't bother to detail any issues he's had in the past because they were all due to the trauma caused by his brother.

From the first time we met him we knew..we knew he was hurt, knew he wasn't typical..knew life with him would present challenges. We had no idea. None. We parented him with love, unity as parents, stayed consistent with boundaries...we were "therapeutically parenting". We had one of the BEST behavioral specialists there is. We regularly attended attachment therapy, my husband & I went through training & kept educating ourselves. All the while home schooling, and raising 3 other children.... My husband is also a pastor. We're not perfect by a long shot BUT if there was any chance for this boy I really believe we offered the needed home. We loved this child.

So ... by 10 the DX was ADHD, RAD, FASD & an IQ of 72. School was a bear. Living with him nearly broke me. Then I became pregnant. In his eyes I was weaker than him. He broke my hand. And I was afraid of his lies & CPS. So I covered & said I fell. From that point on I became weaker than him in his eyes, his victim..more than what I had ever been before. He lied to his bro & convinced him we didn't love them & they ran away. Later he admitted his intent was to hurt his brother. They were missing 6 hours. Five months later we called the police because he beat & attempted to rape his brother. He was in juvie for 5 days, released into a temporary shelter until we could secure residential treatment. Two weeks in he broke probation for sexual misconduct. When we got him into RT he was there 18 months. No change, lots of behaviors & admissions of things like raping our dog. Of course these things I type are his "biggies", you all know the day in day out,..lies, poop, pee, self harm, destruction, stealing...etc.

After those 18 months, our state FORCED us to bring him back into our home. With our 3 minor children...By the Grace of God we survived. I do not mean that flippantly. He was home a year. During that time we conducted our home as a RT complete with alarms & a huge amount of restrictions. On one of his times of being hospitalized, during that year, he was DX'ed with conduct disorder.( I should add here while in RT he met a boy with schizophrenia. So he learned the symptoms & came home pretending, quite well, to be schizophrenic. He even got new meds from his new psychiatrist.) He was kicked out of school 15 times in 7 months for violence. He was sexually intimidating me. Threatening physical harm or saying he wanted to kill his father. None of that mattered to the "system". We finally were able to get him back in RT because he set a fire in his room. (Later we discovered multiple fires were set.)

I've skipped so much.

We see him monthly. And every 3 months review his funding with adoption subsidy. Its always a threat that they will try to pull funding. And TRY to force us to bring him back. The RT therapist knows he should never be in any home setting. The state knows. We have met with some ppl in very high places to get doors for RT to open. We've been told our story is high profile. They know he is a danger.

So..genetically both of his bio parents are a mess. Mom has a narcissistic personality disorder among other issues. Dad in & out of prison for theft to sexual violence. Our son suffered a great deal of abuse. Every type. I believe it all plays into his make up.

I'm try to keep ahead of the game. To learn. To not be victimized by him & more importantly to protect my family with knowledge. ANY advice or questions are so welcomed =)
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 01/10/16 09:18 PM

Wow you have been through a lot. I congratulate you for getting through all those years. He is almost 18 and you are almost free. Ours is still in RT and we got him on SSI Medicaid to cover. We are talking to a lawyer. Not sure what state you live in, but they cannot force you to take him back, read below for details. Do a search for all my posts to get more of our story. You can do that easy from the main page.

Here's what I've learned about Psycho-path/RAD:
Read the socio-path next door. Read these blogs. They are clever and callous. He may act likes he cares, but when he knows you see through him, he stops the game. He will manipulate others and play on peoples sympathy. He can behave if he thinks he has something to gain by fooling you, but when you call him on his behavior he will never admit wrong. He doesn't care, he may cry tears when consequences come, but when he is separated he really doesn't miss you or value you. There are two types of people to him, those he can manipulate and fool or those he wants to torment. Bad behaviors are a game to them. They win if they can get the best of you, make you angry, or hurt you. He loses when he doesn't get you upset or when stopped in his torment. I recently heard a story of a child abductor who one child escaped and the abductor/killer was caught. In court the abductor kept saying "you didn't win" to the child and denying that he was caught. Hurting people is game and they are determined to win. There is nothing I can do to fix him or reason with him, he is how he is and cannot change and cannot even admit that he has done wrong. There is no conscience, no empathy, no sorrow, or regret, only anger, attacks, and denial. I cannot handle his behaviors in my home.

Here are some resources I have found:
Schools have ESE programs called IEP's, they can be evaluated and placed in a special school with therapy. Hospitalize him whenever he is threatening or dangerous. Multiple hospitalizations get more attention from Counselors and social workers and they can offer other solutions. Dont' waist time with counselors who are fooled by him (only half the counselors we have worked with really saw him clearly). Do find a psychiatrist and psychologist who get it. Social workers are key to getting services. In our state a child can be SIPP'd for special RT for dangerous behaviors after that he can be placed in a step down program which is a group-home with therapy. Coverage for these services can be obtained by Medicaid, which you can get by applying for SSI while he is in a treatment center. When he is out of your house, your income does not count against you for eligibility. Our state (FL) also offers a program called Child in Need of Services, which is designed for unruly children. This program can petition the court on your behalf if you tried all other therapies. The petition may place the child in another temp program or place the child in foster care. Record every dangerous behavior in a written typed journal. These journal are very helpful for the hospitals, programs, social workers and courts to establish the full history of his dangers. Ask for written records from the programs. They will usually push back, but it is your legal rite to request the child's full chart (you may have to pay a small fee for copies). Ask for all records of major incidents and accusations. Don't be afraid to report what he is doing to the authorities. Once you get enough records, it's obvious that he is the crazy one and you are innocent of his accusations.

Right now we are considering these next steps: Get a lawyer who specializes in dependency cases. In our state there is another program called Foster Care under Special Conditions. You petition for this if you can get a letter from a program stating he is unsafe for home life. You don't have to pick the child up from a program, but you will be charged with abandonment. This charge may actually be a good thing because it forces the case to a hearing (this is not criminal but civil case which means you will not go to jail). You present a denial that this is abandonment, but you are trying to protect yourself and other children from this child's dangerous behaviors and this child needs the State's services to remain safe. The judge may decide any number of things: long term group home, make the child a ward of the state (lose parental rights), or place the child in a program where you may have to pay child-support. Yes there are some frightening uncertainties with this, but more frightening is the prospect of him hurting my wife or other children when he returns home. Also be aware that a court appearance may be required at any time while in your care if he hurts another, or even when he is in a program and commits a crime while you have custody.

Please continue to write and ask questions, and let me know what you have found.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/06/16 09:34 PM

As usual, there is not much activity here. I thought I would follow up on what we have done in hopes of providing guidance for someone else. My son was released from the residential program he was in, however we were directed to get him into a step down facility, but none would take him. Three rejected him because he was too violent. We had been talking to our social worker and layer about this, and decided not to pick him up because he would be too unsafe to come home and live with our other children (3 and 13 years old). The lawyer is a dependency lawyer who often works cases where children are removed from the home. This case is kind of the opposite, but it is the same legal system.

Here's what happened. After our initial call to DCF stating that we would not pick him up, an inspector from the police department came by to interview us. At that time we were basically charged with neglect and abandonment, but know that this is not a criminal charge, but a civil charge. Also, it is a charge, not a conviction. The same would happen if someone accused you of abuse. We provided pertinent documentation, the numbers of our social worker, psychologist, and lawyer. She contacted them and got the full story, in addition to what we told her. She also interviewed my daughter in private to see if she felt threatened by my psychopath child and if there was any other reason to feel threatened in our home. When my son was scheduled to be released from the residential home, this inspector picked him up and took him to a shelter. A day or two after that, there was a shelter hearing where the judge looked at our case, recommended a suitability assessment for placement, a few other additional services and then they assigned us a ChildNet worker to be my son’s advocate. At this point, my son was placed into the care of the foster system, but we still maintain custody and guardianship. After that, they scheduled the arraignment hearing. Between these two hearing we met with the ChildNet worker and our social worker who knows us well to introduce ourselves and explain the circumstances to her.

At this time my son had another outburst at the shelter where he violently kicked and attacked others in a moving van. He even hospitalizing another 3-year-old by kicking her in the head. He also destroyed property and was throwing rocks at cars. He was hospitalized again for this. When I visited him in the hospital, he spoke of hearing voices of Lucifer and seeing demons. He also told me that he wanted to go to the foster system and that he felt like a prisoner in our house, because we always kept him under close supervision and required him to see many doctors and social workers. Surprisingly, he said these things very respectfully and seemed to show empathy, respect, and regret for his behaviors. These are things I had never genuinely observed in him before. But I wondered if he had just gotten really good at manipulation through pretending to be empathetic or remorseful. Because if he really had feelings for us or regret, he would want to come home and have another chance. I believe he wants to find someone else to fool, because he knows he can no longer fool us. He knows we are no longer trapped by him because we can get him out of our home every time he has an outburst and gets dangerous.

At the arraignment hearing there were too many lawyers for me to keep track of. Basically, it seemed like my son had 4-5 legal representatives and we only had our lawyer and our social worker. Regardless, everyone understood that we had done everything we could to help this child, but could no longer take the risk of having him back in our house. There was one part where our lawyer was arguing for us not to have to go to a parental training course and not to go to counseling, because we are not offending parents. I conceded that we are already going to counseling as a family regarding him and we have been participating in family counseling at the institutions via phone. They wrote that into our court requirements. Our lawyer also worked with the other lawyers to change the language of our charges from neglect and abandonment to: unable to care for the child, due to his psychiatric needs. When the judge spoke to us, she commended us for the work we had done and concurred that we had no other choice. She was very sympathetic. However, their goal is still for reunification in 6 months. So basically we will have to go back for another hearing in October to evaluate our compliance with court requirements (counseling and child support), and his progress or condition. Then, in January, we will have another hearing to discuss if he is ready for reunification. We and our lawyers will most likely state that reunification is not possible.

My son was returned to the shelter, but they required him to have a one-to-one sitter to keep an eye on him at all times, to try to avoid another hospitalization. Since then they tell me he is doing well, but he has not returned any of my calls. The suitability assessment recommended he be placed in a foster home, which has parents trained for special needs (therapeutic foster home). Next week he will be placed with a single foster mother, who has an older foster child. At that time, they will schedule his continued counseling with us and whatever other programs they provide for him. My guess is that he will not be able to maintain long there without another need for hospitalization or at this point maybe even juvenile detention. If that happens, we will have a good change of avoiding reunification mandates. Bottom line is that to avoid him returning to our home, we will probably have to keep going back to court every six months or so, at least for a while, and lawyers are expensive.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/07/16 05:24 PM

Hi DadofRad, Wow, this is quite a lot of information and thank you for being so forthcoming. As you can see by the views a lot of people are reading your story but as usual parents are much more likely to read than to come forward. Your information is very eye popping. I think to have to encounter this same ordeal every six months must be an unimaginable ordeal. How long do you think this will go on? It must be a relief that you aren't being considered as abusive parents. I have no idea how you handle all of this.

If people want to read your story if they click on your name they can view your posts and read your history. I encourage all parents of suspected psychopaths to read DadofRad's story. It is very hard to get support in the situation this family is in and I am asking that even if only a few words that people reading will respond and say a few words. It is mind boggling what this family is going through and I hope we can gather around and support them.

I really hope some parents will come forward to help support you and your family. I don't have children and am hoping that we can help you and some other parents in the same situation will come forward to support you.

Is he at a distance in this care facility from your home?

All my best,

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/07/16 07:14 PM

Thanks Di, for your empathy and support. I'm really living one day at a time and trying to be forward thinking instead of thinking about all the current trials. I'm also still clinging to the Serenity prayer as there is so much here I cannot change, and the part I can change I must be courageous enough to do it. I have no idea how long this will go on. The state will continually have the goal of reunification, but I am guessing that eventually it will be clear that he has gotten worse and not better and can never be returned home. My lawyer has no idea how long it may go on. At one time she estimated that there may be seven hearings, but that it just a guess. Right now he is about 20 minutes away in the downtown area. I'm not sure where his foster home will be yet. Our counseling expectations will most like be weekly, so I'm not sure how we are going to work all that out yet.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/07/16 07:42 PM

Hi DadofRad, I am guessing in your case one breathe at a time because I can only imagine in my worse nightmares what this must be like. I never had children (by choice) and I don't really know what to do except to try and help. I sent a message which I rarely do but I know her personally to a lovely long time member who joined us after being at my first forum many years ago. She will likely post in a few days.

I will keep checking in and let's see how we can get you some well needed support. I learned many years ago that people don't know until you ask so I am asking any members who are reading to please help you.

All my best,

Posted by: Notmyfault

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/08/16 02:21 PM

I am just now catching up on this story. I have learned a lot about this disorder, my own grown son is one or I should say was, as he is believed to be deceased. Also I myself am an adopted child, now grown...between the two combining subjects I have done a lot of research for 20 years, First I was impressed, like me you you find solace in totally educating yourself on the subject. This I think is excellent. There is so much to know, that it takes years till you start to feel you can just about smell them.

My background to start. I was a child who with my siblings were taken from our mother. It was years later I learned, she had left me at 9 1/2 months in a drawer and left me with a 2 yr old and 2 Great Danes. I was believed to be dead when found. My mother through all these studies I now know was NPD. And in spending years finding others, I found the disorder is heavy in my genes. I had a brother who had been taken from the orphanage and returned because of it, he ended up growing up there. I am not from the theory we are born clean slates, I am convinced genes plays a very big role. I have 3 adult children. Two by my ex who have grown to be exceptional human beings, and my youngest by a different father who I now realize also came from a similar genetic background. For years and years I could not see what was happening. Denial is a strong thing. Here is the shortened story of that child.

He was born right as my older two were starting school. His dad was a musician, and I was attracted to him as we're all females who seemed to meet him. I thought I was lucky. At five months Pregnant he beat me and I kicked him out. When our son was born, he almost died swallowing part of the first bowl movement. I wondered if that disruption in bonding caused it, I no longer believe so. I do believe the dual combination of genes did and the lifestyle of him growing up determined what would be his own special needs and quirks. He was a delightful baby, it changed at around 1. He would not bond, he would cry and fight you if you tried to give him affection. At age 3 I was told by head start that the psychologist thought something was mentally wrong with him. I laughed, I mean heck he was 3. And the following year he again went to head start at4 in a different state.

The teacher could not stand him, and tried to remove him, I called DC and she was actually let go after finishing her year. He would make up incredible stories, saying I was dead, or that his father was a policeman. Again I made excuses. Things became worse, though as a non violent upbringing we did not see violence in him till he was older. It became hard to work when he was young, no one wanted to watch him. I would work mid nights and have him sleep in my office, to try to hold a job. At 5 he.came to me with a red mark across his face, he said his 16 year old brother slapped him. After an argument with his big brother, I find out he slapped himself. He was like this quite a bit. At age 9 while I was working he stole the money I had in a drawer and went and bought survival equipment ( my 1200. I had just borrowed) I hospitalized him after this. First they said...early bi-polar.

If you know about the dangerous Triad he was already exhibiting it, though not exactly as was common. The Triad is, bed wetting, fire starting, and animal abuse. Two of three is a bad sign. He wet the bed till he was an adult, played with matches, but seemed to love animals. But after his dog died and we buried him in the backyard , we found he had been digging him up to watch him decompose. Then found he did the same with dead deer in the woods. My roommate was a psychologist and she started me on the reading and educating myself. She told me he was a budding,psychopath, but I was still in denial.

All his stealing and lying wore me down, but when he became a teen I thought he was better. He became one of the best looking, most popular guys in school. Everyone loved him, teachers, police, etc. because at that time he was so charming and so very strong, but never used violence to intimidate and always defended picked on kids and he wielded a lot of influence. He kept doing weird things and was diagnosed, NPD and Psychopath, label held back till age 18.

I thought we were very close, he acted like he really loved me. I lost confidence when after not allowing him to do something, he called the police and said I was beating him and he felt like an abused wife. The police came out, they knew him and believed me, the stare from him made me want to cringe and I ended up moving out, as I was scared. I will stop here for now as its a lot of reading. But let me say adopted children often come from personality disordered back grounds. Girl gets pregneant by creep and doesn't believe in abortion and creates a often troubled spawn. Do not feel guilty if you cannot control this child. They don't understand themselves at all, or feel guilty so there is nothing they feel ever needs to change. Hope to hear back, and will write more later
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/09/16 04:02 PM

Thanks Notmyfault,
I've read your post before and recall some of your story. So I understand your child is grown up and presumed dead. How did you come to that conclusion? I assume you had cut him off from you as an adult and lost all contact and awareness. How did that work for you? Did he just leave you alone after you told him not to come back? Did you have to move, or did he just not even want to contact you. My wife worries that we may later have to move and change our names to get a clean escape from him. She fears he may stalk or try to harass/attack us when he is an adult. I don't think he cares enough to do that. He does want to hurt, harass, instigate, his care givers, but he easily transfers that role to anyone, and prefers those he can manipulate. He wants someone to take care of him so he can abuse them. If he is unable to harass his caregiver, I believe he will search for another. He has no attachment to us, so he can easily transfer that caregiver role to anyone. The hardest part is that I will always love him and want the best for him. I just know that best cannot be with us. It's hard to feel compassion and love for someone and have to watch them self-destruct.

I'm also curious about what you said about your son being so popular and handsome in school. My son tends to be too irritating to be popular. He tends to try to instigate his peers, but charm adults who are not his caregivers. So he does well with teachers in school, but not peers. To his caregivers, he is comfortable enough to treat them as peers and attempt to instigate them too. How did your son maintain such a good outward appearance and still exhibit psychopath tendencies?

I understand and I agree about adopted children often coming from personality disordered genetics. Unfortunately, our schools all teach you a person is a blank slate and with the right environment, you can raise a stable person. We have found that to be untrue. Aside from not having him until he was 17 months old, I honestly can't think of anything we could have done better to bond with him or train him. We were very attachment oriented parents, even co-sleeping for years. My priority has always been my family and kids, and I make sure to put them before my career. I can't tell you how many things we've tried to develop him (Church, boy scouts, karate, soccer, numerous counselors, therapist, meds). I know it's not my fault, as you said. It still feels horrible to come to this conclusion and make these decisions. It’s good to hear it from someone else.

The bottom line is always safety for my family, which I cannot guarantee as long as he is around. If he had not been an aggressive or dangerous psychopath, we would be stuck with him as he is. We probably would not even be aware that he is psychopath, because we would have continued assuming he was just more challenging due to adoption issues.
Posted by: Notmyfault

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/17/16 09:04 PM

First and is NOT your fault. They often use the term anti-social personality disorder and I, like some others don't like that term. I have worked with many 'anti-social, teens....but, the majority were not psychopaths. These people are very very duel, unlike an anti social. The same psychopath who could kill you, could also run into a burning home to save a life. Not because they are heroes, but because they do not recognize danger, they are drawn to excitement, and it still feeds their need for admiration or notoriety. Because they are so complex they are not easily understood. They are a monster with the ability to appear as a kitten. They live in their own world with true loyalty only to themselves.. As per my son becoming charming...that happened around 15, I actually thought he was getting better. Before that no one wanted him hanging out with their child. He was not so charming till about 15. Of course it was then he grew taller and very good looking. He could act loving unless you said, no. Then the stare, calm, cold, and scary. He was sure of himself, charming, funny, witty, brave and manipulate everyone to do his work. He could share a big smile while telling an utter falsehood. He ripped everyone off, even his friends.....he would just convince them it wasn't him and he would be furious that someone did that to his friend. He defended the weak in school and prided himself in not handling things with violence. But that all changed after marrying a woman from Juarez MX. Through her family he ended up working running drugs and messed with the wrong people, whom originally by the way we're even charmed by him the first time he stole from them. Need to break, will return tomorrow!
Posted by: Notmyfault

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/17/16 09:54 PM

Trying a little more, needed to reread your questions and statements. I cut him off verbally Jan. 1 st 2007. Prior to this he had run from the cartel after ripping them off again, and he was kidnapped out of the us when they found him. They tortured him, but allowed him to live. After making him brutally kill someone, then they owned him. He had a phone I was footing the bill for him , and my bills were over 1000. A month. He kept saying he was afraid to leave , but promised he would after that Christmas. Last time we talked on New Years Day he glibly told me he had changed his mind, they had bought him a Rolex for Christmas. I told him the phone would be turned off in a month, and I never answered his calls after that. Though he had left me a message on that Mother's Day, trying to make me forgive him. It was awful to do that. Mine did eventually come with friends and tried to break in the house. I heard his voice, and our neighbor turning his porch light on scared them off. Our curb was spray painted red. The story has much more to it, but that is off track. I do believe he was there to kill me, probably as a punishment by the cartel for some other thing he did.( and to rob us).

A psychopath cannot learn to have true emotions and a conscience, the part of the brain that is our moral center does not exist for them, you can teach them the words, but they will never know the music.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/21/16 11:14 AM

Thanks for.providing more of your story. What you say is so true about psychopath. No moral foundation. Capable of murder, but can appear as harmless as a kitten. My son is getting more beguilingly, to the point I still have to question: Did he really mean that or is he just manipulating? Does he really feel remorse and empathy, or has he just learned the way to act?

The scary thing is that few of his therapists know this and are easily taken in. Further, they don't really feel the need to review his extensive history and case notes I've provided or to talk to therapists' who have known him for years. So they end up giving him minimal supervisor. His first night at a foster home, he was sexual with another boy because due to lack of supervision. Now he's got the victim label which I'm sure he will use for sympathy. More frightening is that he now knows how to get someone out of his life quickly by making a sex accusation.

Did your son have explosive, violent episodes like mine?
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/23/16 02:32 AM

Hi DadofRad, I can't answer your question from a parents perspective but can add some input from my observations. One of the things that the psychopaths I interviewed listed was the sexual abuse angle to garner support for themselves to be seen as victims. In their cases they would say they had been abused as children. They use these angles to deflect if confronted, like, you don't understand me I have pain because I was abused and the list goes on.

There are a lot of good therapists out there but when a person is in a caring profession such as therapy I think it can help them to side with who they perceive to be the victim. Psychopaths are pros at portraying themselves as the victims in every scenario. I am guessing a lot of them think that "they will grow out of this" behavior when in reality we all know that will never be the case. I can see him working this sexual encounter for all it is worth to him. It will establish him in their minds as the victim. I am wondering who initiated the encounter and we will probably never know.

They know how to get people out of their lives when growing up and the sex card is like gold to them, imo. Portraying the victim while victimizing others. I feel pity for the foster care people because they will probably be next when the situation will work to his advantage. I was amazed at how self aware the three psychopaths I interviewed were, their self reflection was actually very enlightening and frightening. When asked how they got out of of situations and got victims to go their way they were able to list all the ways they have found that work. Some of them were quite amazing.

I have read he is on medications to control things but in all reality sometimes these medications can add to the explosive personality elements. Catch 22 for sure.

I would have to add their behaviors are learned because they are missing those parts that we all have so any actions to present emotion or caring are just skills being honed. Empathy and emotions on their part are all an act, the more socialized the better the act. I suspect his outbursts might be medication enhanced and also he is learning what works and what doesn't. One of them described growing up as learning to push what buttons to get what results. He actually felt like the victim because they had to learn these things that come naturally to us that don't have the gene and got a bit nasty with me on the subject about it.

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/24/16 07:08 PM

Thanks Di,
His story is that the other boy exposed himself to my son and then told him to ... He said he did do that but told the foster mother the next day. The other boy had a history and appeared guilty but I do not have his story yet. It's believable in this case, but I do fear he will learn the victim and accusation tactics more now. I know these things happen, especially in a broken foster care system.

You are right about how they learn manipulation. I can't tell you how many people think they have bonded with my son. But he never expresses any emotional concern for them nor even miss someone, including myself. It actually scared me that he had started to express empathy and regret, because I knew it was false, but anyone else would believe it.

I do wonder about his impulsive aggressive outbursts. This does not seem consistent with the psychopath desire to hide his true self and deceive. It's that behavior that gets him out of our home. In the Psychopath next door, she said the agressive violent Psychopath usually goes to Juvie around age 14. I am waiting to see if mine falls in line with that. It's sad to know that is ahead, but otherwise he becomes so self controlled we have to have him back.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/24/16 09:49 PM

Hi, I have this nagging feeling that the medications can also be aggravating the situation. Have you tried doing a Google search using terms like: does depakote cause anger issues. I don't recall if that is one of his medications but it is just a suggestion for what terms to search for. Some of these medications may seem to have some results in the initial stages but be quite the opposite in reality.

I would also suggest that you might consider a consultation with Dr. Gacono. He is a brilliant researcher and probably the most published in the field and the only person that Robert Hare is recommending for consultations now that Hare is retiring of sorts. If it were me that would be an option I would consider. I can get you touch with him if you are interested. I don't know if you have had a chance to read my book? While most of the books out there are written by victims most others like Hare and Stout use composite characters. I thought I knew a lot from the victim perspective but pulling back the curtain on how they learn their behaviors from actual psychopaths was very enlightening. It is all calculated and like they said, they have to learn which buttons to push for their desired results. I was not aware of the level of self reflection and calculation that goes into all their moves. The key is to create victims while portraying themselves as the victim in any given situation. The main take away it is all about total control for them.

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/25/16 06:14 AM

Sure, I would like to contact the doctor, if possible. As the moderator, you probably have access to my personal email.

When my son was off medication for a few months, his violence, agression, threats, and attacks were about three times worse. The doctor at the time was more of a naturalist, but even she had to admit after 6 months that he did need pychotropic drugs. She also admitted that the effects would only tone down his behaviors, not stop them. He is what he is. Right now, he is so overmedicated, the last assessment I read by a doctor repeatedly mentioned him being tired and lethargic. But if yo cut back the meds, that energy goes toward aggression and outbursts. What you said about control is key. I think he feels in control when he escalates, because he has everyone's full attention and he can make demands and make people fear him.

I read your forward on the site. If you ever get it on audio let me know. I'll order it soon.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/25/16 06:55 AM

Hi, I clearly am not a medical Dr. but I do have personal experience with medications because I was put on them many years ago after I lost everything at the hands of a corporate psychopath. The path to getting off of them is a windy road and it takes a very long time. Many times just a few months off of them will not produce any change because the brain takes time to rewire so to speak. I can understand in this case that being highly medicated and lethargic is the only route they might take.

I haven't been able to do an effective audio for my book but have been exploring it. The reason is because the way it is written and there are three voices plus mine so it isn't a regular audio type of book. It will also require a large investment that I can't make at this time. I am the type of person that if I can't do something that will be great I would rather wait until I can meet that goal. I am also concerned that the way they say things which is very interesting might get lost in audio but the concept is still on my mind and if I can figure out how to make it work I will.

Control for psychopaths is like food to the rest of us, they have to have it and will stop at nothing to get it. One guy I interviewed would even circle back to a relationship to really crush the victim further if things didn't end up as he expected them to. Evil knows no bounds.

I will email you the details for Dr. Gacono.

Posted by: Notmyfault

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/28/16 08:21 AM

The irony of all this is what is now happening with my grandson ( this sons son ) he is 10 and medicated but still awful outbursts of violence, including to animals. Although it is agreed he has his fathers curse, for lack of a better term. Mom tries hard to get him HELP now ( was just in emergency room for kicking out a window). But no one will help. She lives on Mexico border and the future does not look good.

My son had Angry outbursts, but was respected for his non violence. The school actually had him intervene between a KKK guy and fist black male in school. He actually DID diffuse what could have been real bad, and walked away admired by both sides.
The violence came after he owed the cartel....and then he became their hit man.

I also spent my whole motherhood trying to guess what he really meant. I have found this is normal with these guys. The lying is often glib and left to interpretation, even though you deep down know they are messing with your head. This is not normal, don't assume they are victims of themselves... They are not. How is your child on the triad scale?

In my observation after discovering family background it seems there are mainly two personalities going on at all times. The truly insane person, and adult children of these difficult people. They project and usually have a scapegoat to hide behind. If you grew up the scapegoat you may show some of their tendencies and believe it is YOU. That creates all the unhappiness. Then unknowingly you start partnering with these pers. disordered predators
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/28/16 02:48 PM

By triad, I see from your past posts, you mean bed wetting, fire starting and animal abuse. My son frequently did wet the bed. More often, he would soil his pants and even do so vindictively. Once he threw his soiled pants at his mother. He snuck into our bedroom and urinated on our floors too. His room always swelled of urine, even after shampooing multiple times. I finally, pulled up his carpet and found the floor boards had been saturated, as he had used some corners as an alternate bath room. We always kept matches and lighters locked up. We became too smart to not protect ourselves after we really learned how he could be. He did try to start a fire at Grandma's house with bathroom candles, while visiting. We got rid of our dog when he was a toddler. The dog did have a broken leg and I always wondered if he had done that. He has been known to throw lizards in fans or in the water for fish to eat. I did get him a beta fish which he killed the first night, although he did appear remorseful (manipulation?)

The two personality types you mentioned, I know as codependent and addict. I have often played the codependent when he was very young. I often felt like he had me wrapped around his fingers. He would instigate his mother and then try get my sympathy when she got mad. He would do things behind my back that only she would see. Eventually, I became wise to what he was doing and always took her side, but for a while we had a lot of arguments, which I'm sure he enjoyed. Now, I see him playing the same game with his foster parents. His foster Dad just had a conversation with me saying how he's really a good kid and we shouldn't give up on him. But he admitted his wife sees our point of view better. The truth is he doesn't have the capacity for goodness because he doesn't have a conscience. He can appear to be good when he is in control of himself, but those who really know him, know it's all part of the show. I've actually gotten really depressed about it because the codependent me still wants to help and rescue him, but I know there is nothing I can really do here except continue to keep him out of our home, so he doesn't harm us. But releasing him to the system, I know most people will be fooled by him, judge us, and will continue to pressure us to take him back. Also, I know that in this dysfunctional system he will do worse than with us.

So your son and grandson have explosive outbursts too. This confirms that outburst are part of the package. Poor behavior control, and impulsiveness is part of the criteria. I know what you mean about your daughter in law not finding anyone who will help. I found you just have to help yourself and keep hospitalizing him every time he does something dangerous. Do this enough and you should be able to get some doctors or social workers to support in sending him to residential treatment (RT) or in our case to justify not picking him up from hospitalization.
Posted by: Notmyfault

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/29/16 10:27 AM

Yes the outbursts are pretty on going with these children. I still get the guilts, was just discussing putting him ( my grandson) in boxing, he is attracted to high risk, I would like to see if challenging sports will help. While raising my son , many well meaning people offered very uninformed advice. Forums like this are very necessary as parents who have not experienced this can misread everything going on. You need the support. I put my son in for hosp. But don't feel it ever helped. Mainly because society is just now coming to understand a disorder that is behind everything that seems to destroy lives. I have come to believe these temperaments are on some level necessary to keep life sustained, because when it comes to the ability to sustain horrendous obstacles, they are also good at that. If their energy is capable of being put in the right direction, these are also often the Hero s . Even serial killers like Bundy, had also accomplished heroic things. He risked his life to save a 3 yr old drowning toddler. Maybe some of the answers is trying to find a place for them, at least some in society. What are your thoughts on this? Everyone has pain in life, with a RAD in the will face your pain plus all the pain that is truly theirs.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 08/31/16 06:07 AM

I read in the Socio Path Next door, these people make good soldiers because they have no conscience or guilt to hold them back from taking another life. However, I'm sure their instability also make them difficult to trust. Without being trustworthy, there is really little hope for their relationships or vocation. We tried Karate and other sports, but he never had the grit to stick with anything that required work of him for more than a couple of weeks. Because my son is violent and aggressive at his worst, I always believed that physically aggressive sports would feed that. He already kicks people during a fit, the last thing we need is him learning how to make those kicks lethal. Yes, I know these sports teach control and discipline, but remember that psychopaths are not teachable, especially when it comes to human traits like self-control, discipline, compassion, and empathy.

No, hospitalizing him doesn't really help him much, but it gets him out of my house. Further, they will be able to adjust medications in a hospital environment much more effectively and safely than in your home. Also, the more you have records of his dangerous behaviors the more people take you seriously when you try to place him somewhere. If and when you have to go to court, you have records of all the things he has done, and all the things you have tried to do to get him help.

I no longer really believe he is RAD and it is currently ruled out on his diagnosis. He appears attached, because he knows what to say, but he really has no emotional attachment to us. Also, from what I have heard on RAD, RAD kids do respond to continued attachment therapy, which he does not (except for show).

I do not know, and barely care anymore, what place my son will have in society. At this point my highest hope for him is that he not become a killer or abuser. He has already emotionally, mentally, and physically abused my family to the point my only goal is to be free from him. All I know is that I have to keep him out of my home, or my home will not have peace. Whatever compassion I have for him (and I still do), I have to repress and think about what is best for my innocent children and my wife who don't deserve to live in an abusive home. As husband and father my role is to provide and protect my family, this my place.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 10/30/16 11:05 AM

I'm pretty thick skinned after all I've been through, but please reread your post and try to be a little more sensitive. You were practically calling people who adopt and people who try to learn how to live with a psychopath idiots.

In retrospect, I would not have adopted him. But who would have known. Our psychologist says he would only find one in every 1000 clients a psychopath like my son. This is rare and there are dozen's of adoption success stories for every heartbreak like ours. When we adopted we were warned about RAD, but it was presented in a manner where we assumed or hoped it could be treated. Our society needs to do a better job at teaching what a psychopath is, not only for adoptive parents but for anyone who may be victimized. Even movies try to depict villains now as not mentally unfixable, but often as people who are just misunderstood or reacting to past wounds. That is just not true of psychopaths who are societies real villains. Until we understand that these people just cannot think like normal people, feel like normal people, or change their ways, we cannot protect ourselves from them.

I have a friend who owns a fish camp in the Everglades.He grew up there, and knows gators and the environment well. Whenever a new gator comes to live around his house he jumps in the water and wrestles it. He is not being stupid, but he is actually showing the alegator who is boss. If the alegator does not submit, then he relocates the creature. He has to do this or the alegators will become territorial and become a threat to his family. I am glad there are people who know how to handle these animals and can safely keep them under control and relocate them when necessary. Some do so out of necessity, and some do so as their career and passion. I think the parallel is obvious.

Posted by: FeelingDefeated

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 11/02/16 01:38 PM

Reading this post convinced me to join this forum. I'm at such a loss and feeling such a feeling of helplessness and defeat for both myself and my adopted daughter. We adopted two unrelated children at the age of 3 from St.Petersburg Russia. Both now 15. She was thriving there, potty trained, dressing herself and speaking full Russian. He on the other hand had never left the infant room and was expected to "just die there" if he were not adopted. Once in the states we found through surgeries that he actually never heard words with his hearing issues. He had two caregivers at the most while institutionalized in comparison to her possible sixty.

He has social issues but is very intelligent and shows absolutely no signs of RAD. She could be a RAD poster child and now upon finding this site I'm convinced that she does have psychopath behaviors. My sister has her doctorate in psych and has mentioned this in the past as well although absolutely no experience in RAD she has researched extensively.

She has stolen from us and her siblings upon arrival, purposely breaks everything, has absolutely no sense of what is hers and what isn't to the point that I've searched her garbage for years for household items etc....unopened Christmas presents (although unwrapped) though there is no attachment to things as well. She refuses to use sanitary items and chooses to use my kitchen towels, scarfs, shirts etc for her cycle. She then stashes them in various places within the house (we have a very large home) until we track them down due to the stench. She just started using toilet tissue.....just so many unexplained thought patterns. Her IQ on a curve is just at 70 using the Belle Curve through the public school system. You truly can not believe anything she says and yes, just as others mentioned, she can make herself believable to the outside world (such as school settings etc) by manipulating the conversation.

I'm her target....I'm the disciplinary and I make the rules. I weight 112# and her at 170....she towers over me...her violent outbursts and issues make all of us feel like prisoners in our own home. We have 3 biological and the 2 adopted. One biological, 12 years old, and the 15 year old still in the home. I have pictures of my bruises although this last weekend was an all time new as she threw me across her bedroom slamming my head into her dresser. She feels no remorse and tells me that I should be more careful as to what I ask her to do (rules again) as I know that she has anger issues.

Recently she painted her eye with red marker and black make up waiting on the bus. Thankfully my boys texted me to tell me of this as she was telling everyone that she had been hit. I was able to reach her counselors and they were able to call her into their office and make her wash her face. This morning she threatened me upon the request for all of the children to be sure their beds were made (now mind you I do not go for perfection)that she DID NOT have to follow my rules and that she'd see me in court and then visit me in jail because she was going to tell everyone of her head injuries. We have never laid a hand on her.

Unless you've lived in a prison like ours you just can't imagine how awful it is and how it doesn't matter what you attempt to do to make them love you......that it's just not a reachable reality.

Since I started this forum thread I received a phone call from our county solicitor who I've reached out to telling me of a RAD boarding school here in GA. I phoned her therapist who is from the country Georgia and only sees foreign adoptions. She and I have an apt tomorrow.....defeated or not.....if I can afford it.....and for the safety of the others....this is her future.

I feel bad for all of you in this same situation.....and if you're not....but you read....please don't judge.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 11/03/16 11:50 AM

Hi Feeling Defeated, thank you very much for sharing your story. It helps more people than you can imagine just by sharing. I hope today's meeting goes as planned. Members over the years have suggested some pretty good ideas on how they kept things safer in their home if she does stay with you while waiting to be placed. If you are interested I can fill you in on what I have learned from them. If you want to follow another members story you can click on their name and their posts will show up.

Best Regards,

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 11/05/16 12:30 PM

Thank you for posting. I hope your child gets into the program. If it works out, I would like to hear more about the program. Do you have to pay for it? If you do a search for all my posts, you can see what I did and how I am handling mine. I've still got regular challenges, but he has not been in our house for the last year and prior to that he was only with us 6 months in the last 2.5 years. Like you, when he is home we all live in fear and constant stress, never knowing what type of outburst or intentional accident he will create. No one deserves to live with the abuse you have endured, What we did after having him in 3 residential care programs, was refuse to pick him up for reunification. In our state there are legal charges for that, but we got a dependency lawyer and the judges so far were understanding. They are still trying to fix him and send him back, but we can just keep refusing as he continues to get hospitalized for dangerous behaviors. For the most part, we haven't had to pay too much, but lawyer fees, but we don't know how things will end up. Please know that you are not alone, there are ways to protect yourself and family, and none of this was your fault. Keep standing...she'll be 18 soon.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 11/28/16 07:31 PM

Hi, this is an interesting article with some new research about early childhood detection.

Psychology Today
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 11/30/16 07:02 PM

Interesting. At least they are starting to get it that there is a organic in-born factor, but only after seeing studies that these traits are evident early in life. Yet, they still assume that because they are young they are treatable. But the logic does not follow: An adult psychopath is not treatable, but a child psychopath is. That would be wonderful if it were true. We have been doing everything we could to parent, provide a nurturing environment, and treat his unique condition. Yet nothing has worked and he has gotten worse. When will our psychology experts get over the self delusion that everyone can be helped by their trade, and everyone thinks and acts like they do? I hate to be so negative, but treatments have failed me greatly. Yet, in spite of all the history and evidence I have of his untreatability, I still have to endure every new therapist pretending that they are making progress even as his behavior goes down hill. And they always assume that some environmental factor is the root cause. Please!

What I have learned is that personality does not really change. A good natured child becomes a good natured adult. A angry and aggressive child is usually angry and aggressive when grown. Yes there are life experiences that make a person depressed, angry, or defensive, but usually personality rises above or beneath depending on the personality. If that normal person with true environmental factors finds help from others or even religion, they can return to their true personality. The psychopath, however seems unaffected by both consequences or help.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 01/01/17 11:14 AM

Thought I would give a quick update on my son and our legal position. He is in a court ordered residential program. And just like the other three he went to, this one minimizes and under reports his problems and will most likely release him in 4 months with the plan to step down to another foster home. I think it's harder for the foster home to hide behaviors and I will certainly be in contact with them regularly to get updates. More than likely he will have more meltdowns in foster and then get placed in another resident program, so we will just keep cycling back and forth and we continue returning to court ever 6 months. At age 16 he can age out in a program to just stay in a program until 18, and he can stop bouncing. Our visits are good but he saves his outburst for the primary caregivers. Some Doctors and case workers have suggested termination of parental rights, but our lawyer says to defer to her on that topic as it has major legal impact. I told her privately, if we can we would like to terminate, but that option usually does not come up. So we continue dealing with social workers, lawyers, court dates, and required family counseling but at least he is not in our house and MAYBE they are helping him.

My psycho boss continues to disgrace me and harass me and make me miserable. I will began applying for a new position.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 01/06/17 08:46 AM

Hi DadofRad, always appreciate the updates. If it is appropriate to ask, what is the thinking that it isn't okay to terminate the relationship?

Do you think part of the issue with these foster care people under reporting is because the personality type of the people running these places feel that there is a cure for everything? I noticed that pattern when I used to read at a RAD forum. They seemed to have a high tolerance for brushing issues aside and some thinking that hugs would cure. They would actually say that while at the same time advocating locks and cameras in the house like one would find in a prison to make sure they woke up the next morning. I always thought if they really thought that hugs would cure these kids, why the feeling they might get attacked during the night thus the alarms on doors etc.

Also the other pattern in that group that seemed to be shared by most of the members was that somehow the bio-parents were to blame. I always thought as though as it must have been the parents got out of the situation to save their own lives and family not that they were lousy parents to begin with. Or the other possibility would be that the bio parent who gave up was the one the child got the gene from.

I wish you all the best finding a new place to work. It is a no win. I don't mean to sound harsh and negative but really you have your family and life to protect and I don't believe that trying to keep one step ahead of a psychopath at work or life is any kind of win for the victim. Like I mentioned before be very, very careful who you discuss things with at work if anyone. Personally I would not trust anyone with what you are going through. They always have people around them who will report things to them. I am not saying the people reporting things are evil and in most cases they think they are not doing anything wrong. The psychos just have a very clever and evil way of extracting information that could damage in a way that appears innocent.

All my best,
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 01/07/17 10:06 AM

Thanks again for your support and feedback. First, there is a distinction here between therapeutic residential programs and therapeutic foster homes. The residential programs are institutions usually with therapists, psychiatrists, and a full time staff for monitoring. They are good programs, but tend to work in isolation, and therefore manipulate records in order to meet their insurance goals. Therapeutic foster homes are just regular foster parents who have gone through some seminars on special needs children in general. They are working basically under the same circumstances I would be in if he were home except they can request special social services if needed. Under the foster, the child will see a private psychiatrist and counselor. Under foster care, I should get a more honest report of how he is really doing. I wonder though if at some point the foster parent will be directed not to communicate with me or to hide his behaviors as well. Regardless, we will be able to take him to our therapists where the truth should eventually come out.

I started putting out my resume on the first, and have already gotten calls. I think my boss is getting nervous as he is trying to explain some of his previous comments. Apparently his bosses treat him the same way, which means the entire leadership has ASPD characteristics. And from what I see of them, I can believe it.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 01/11/17 01:45 PM

Hi, thanks very much for explaining the differences. Kind of makes my head spin. It must be tricky with the reporting from the foster parents. I would seem that kind and caring people would be the types who would extend their homes to these kinds of kids. I guess what I am saying they would seem to have their own filter of the situation and that would vary wildly. I guess the kids would be pretty good at reading the system and working it to their advantage.

That is great news that you are making steps to find new employment. I think your observations are very accurate. Corporate work is a real draw to them, just guessing that the higher up they are the harder they would be to pick out. I hope you have great success and find the right place, the stress at home would be enough without adding a crazy system at work. Glad you are working on moving away from them.

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 01/14/17 10:38 AM

The foster parents will be taken in and fooled initially, they will at least have to be honest when major incidents occur. Also, if I develop report they may call me when things get crazy to discuss. It's hard to make that call to the police to report your kid is out of control, but I can explain the need an scenarios where appropriate. Also we will have counseling with him with our Doctor, who knows exactly what he is and is not fooled.

Very Interesting week. We had a conference call with the staff at the institution and my son was online too. I brought up a yelling and cursing outburst reported by the school. The Dr and therapists proceeded to lecture me about only emphasizing progress and gains and not to bring up negatives. I said this is not practical, in a home and school environment we address negatives with consequences, and my son must be equipped to handle that. Shortly after that my son hung up the phone. I called my son to talk about it later and he told me hung up because he did not like the way the staff was talking to me and that I was right. I thought at first, this is a good son, then I rightly thought, he is playing me. Later I asked the staff why they thought he hung up on us and of course they thought he was upset but my negativity. So he acts out, gets attention and uses it to manipulate two parties to his advantage. Wow!

At work my coworker told me that my psycho boss had previously approached him asking him to belittle my work and berate me. I was shocked but not surprised. My coworker told him no, and after that, I notice him treating that coworker more harshly.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 01/18/17 02:53 PM

That is really something, he is learning the game well. It is so important that you are so informed. I don't know if you are comfortable answering but how much longer until he is of legal age? Does he live close to your home?

It is interesting what psychopaths will say. I am glad the co-worker clearly didn't brush off the comments and let you know. I hope you are making progress getting a new situation, one in the family is a huge load so one at work would be just one too many. Many times they do say directly what they are up to but too often these comments get brushed off.

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 01/21/17 12:23 PM

Right now he is 3 hours away by car in the institution, but when he goes to foster care he will be in the same county. He is only 13 now, so we are 5 years away from freedom. However when he is 16, the courts can just leave him in a group home to age out. Right now, it seems like he is getting better at controlling his behaviors, and at manipulating which makes him harder to keep out of our house. Either that, or the institution is just not reporting all of his dangerous behaviors. At this point, they are probably just only reporting blatant violence and not threats, fits, and things he claims are accidents (his favorite tactic to get away with covert attacks).

Thanks, Dadofrad
Posted by: DadofRad

RE: Adopted child and RAD - 02/10/17 06:07 AM

I watched the 1950’s version of “The Bad Seed” this weekend and was very impressed. It is not the cheesy 1950s style horror flick, but is actually very well acted, based on a book by the same name, and linked to an actual historical psychopath. It was probably one of the first stories to entertain the notion that behavior problems and psychotic behaviors can be inherited. That debate is actually played out in dialog, but the story irrefutably suggests it is true. Further the young actress played the part to a tea and the dialog is so typical of a psychopath. It shows the series of events where the parent sees behaviors, hears the child’s manipulations, and then finds evidence of the lies and slow realization that this child can fool anyone, but is capable of the worsts types of crimes. It also shows the heartache and conflict with a parent who understands the depravity of their child, yet loves them dearly, and is stuck in a no-win situation. Has anyone seen this? What are your thoughts. Dianne proposes that psychotic children brought up in good homes usually do not commit the horrible murders or abusive crimes, but this story suggests that this may not be true. I pray she is right in my case, but I have my doubts.

As expected, my son is doing so well in his residential program that they no longer see any problems with him and claim they have fixed him. They are ready to release him, and they are even poking their noses into his Educational IEP and suggesting he now go to normal schools. I spoke to them yesterday in conference call and told them about an event where my son said he picked up a fire extinguisher, took it outside and was spraying it around. He said he was put on a disciplinary action, but the institution still claimed he had no significant events in the last month and had no knowledge of that event. These institutions may have good intentions but their manipulated reporting and smug assertions that they know better than the parents, previous therapists, and even the educational institutions are disparaging. Most likely, he will be released to another foster home, where he will be acting out again to the point of needing hospitalized again.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 02/16/17 11:47 AM

Hi DadofRad,

Thanks for the movie suggestion, will definitely check it out.

I am not 100% sure about these kids raised in better homes will never resort to criminal behavior. I think with the right tools and upbringing they can hide it better and will possibly seek out employment where they can do crimes that might not end up in a prison sentence since we don't seem to be able to punish either good looking, smart or white collar crimes. I also have the jury out. The show Dateline along with many other shows have been around for years and every week they feature a previously "functioning" psychopath without a history of violence who manages to murder their spouse, etc. I can say with confidence that as they breeze through life the destruction to innocent victims will be great.

I think that sometimes I temper my comments to not alarm parents because I also have doubts. Research is limited and like in your case things get brushed under the rug in a way that is actually frightening. I really do however believe the world is becoming more like them (the psychopaths) than the rest of us. It can appear to be a jaded view but it is deep down how I feel when I read the news, look around etc.

I know for a fact that I can not imagine having one of these kids in my life. It is actually horrifying to me. I also can clearly state that I think I can handle a lot but this would be more than likely way beyond anything I could imagine having to do.

The other huge issue that is evident in any victim scenario either with parents, partners, work etc. is the victim is given the short end of the equation and typically not believed or heard. That is something we can only keep plugging along to get voices heard. People need to understand that Ted Bundy isn't the model to put all psychopaths into. The ones like your son are the ones we should be the most concerned about. They may not end up using a knife but they can use a pen or the mind to cause greater harm. I think of it in these ways, a socialized one will knife you in the back and you won't know the knife entered your system until you bleed out in pain, the non-socialized ones like Bundy get you in the front so you know you were had and by whom. The ones who get caught get carted off and out of our lives, the socialized ones have a lifetime to prey on victims.

I don't understand how this place your son is in things that one month of good behavior = success. I am only guessing here but I think he is just getting more clever and can keep his behavior in check of longer each time, does that sound plausible?

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 02/16/17 07:28 PM

Ted Bundy is actually the psychopath that our therapists (who get's him) believes my son is similar to. I don't know if every killer came from a dysfunctional home, but I do know that not every psychopath has aggressive or violent tendencies. Some are just manipulative people who trap and victimize others through their lies. Others as we know are the CEO's who never do anything they can get caught for, but make everyone around them miserable and do not think a moment about destroying a career or reputation of their victim. The combination though of psychotic tendencies with physical violence is what can create the killer. Can they learn to control their aggression or only commit violence where they cannot be caught? Sure, but what to note is the combination of aggression and psychopath.

Here's a question about Hare's work. How is his checklist different from what's in the DSM? Why have his criteria not been adopted by the DSM? I know he has tried to get it published.

This is the 4th institution my son has been in and all of them have minimized his behaviors, not reported significant incidents, initially avoided giving me his behavioral records, and reported at discharge that he had no problems in the last months and he is ready for discharge. After each discharge he has been doing behavior worthy of hospitalization within 2 weeks. I think there are multiple reasons for this:
1) These institutions are greedy and unethical, manipulating records and pushing him through a program in order to appease the insurance companies.
2) They minimize his behaviors and only take into account big events like trying to burn down the facility or sending someone to the hospital.
3) My son may actually do a little better in an institution with a highly structured program and continuous supervision. I don't think he really benefits from the therapy, but he does need the structure and supervision. I believe he actually needs that permanently, but there are no institutions like this where I live who do anything longer term than 6-9 months.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 02/26/17 02:33 PM

Hi DadofRad.

I think the best measure regardless of what the checklists say is to see if the person operates with a conscience. I have seen many people over the years become confused by relying just on checklists vs. actions and words. Pets is the big one that comes to mind, they will say they didn't think the person was a psychopath because of their expressed love and pet ownership. To that I say the person may be highly socialized and using the pet as a way to gather victims so it is tough. If they are looking for kind and compassionate people as victims then having a pet makes them attractive. I guess what I am saying is there is so much confusion over diagnosis that I just rely on the conscience aspect. That appears to be one thing they all agree upon. The current PCL-R is based on the prison model so that can in itself be tricky to navigate.

I used to visit a RAD discussion forum and read about a few of the so called "healers" of these childrens and well, scam kind of came to mind. The bigger the problem in society the more likely you will find someone selling a cure.

The experts do agree about therapy and it will make a psychopath worse for the rest of us but fit better into society. I think it will likely keep them off death row and prison and just make them a slicker version. I think from what you are running into is the blind thinking that what harm could a child possibly do. Clearly it is very wrong thinking.

What can you do? Is it possible to keep getting him put back in for 6 - 9 months at a time or is there a limit on how often this can happen to be covered? Or is this even covered by services or insurance?

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 02/26/17 02:35 PM

I meant to add. It was so long ago that I read about Ted Bundy but as I recall his mother was a case. In some of these cases you can trace it back to the parent who may have given them the gene. For example I always wondered about Dahlmer's parents who did all the media and book etc. Was it one of them that gave him the gene or did their protective environment have him turn out to appear to be okay when in reality he was far from okay.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 03/01/17 01:12 PM

Hi DadofRad, I ran across Ted Bundy's final interview on YouTube. He was a victim till the end. I am going to order Ann Rules's story about him because he paints his family as very normal but I recall differently.

It looks to me like he probably got the gene from his grandfather. Bundys family history

In any case this is an interesting view into his denial Ted Bundy's last interview
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 03/04/17 04:12 PM

I have seen this video before even at church. James Dobson was trying demonstrate the dangers of pornography. Of course the psychopath told him exactly what he wanted to hear and deflected the responsibility, blaming media. I do believe porongraphy is dangerous especially for a psychopath but now I see the psychopath in a clearer light. I do know my son is intelligent, but not creative. He cannot really imagine new ways of hurting people, he has to be shown new ways. This is why violent media is so harmful with him. So I still agree with Dobson's conclusions, but I understand why now better.

Yes the current expectation is that my son will continue to go in and out of institutions, hospitals, and foster care homes until he is better or ages out. SSI and Medicade will pay for it, but there has to be continued proof of need and they have a limit of 9 months at a institution, I am told. We will most likely be going over reviews in court every 3 months until someone recommends a long term placement or revokes our parental rights. Either way, it is better than living with him. Our fear is that he learns to control the dangerous outbursts and we no longer have grounds for not taking him back. We have come too far to go back now. Plus even if he is safe he will still make us all miserable.

I just finished Hare's book. He recommends victims find support groups. Other than this site, are you aware of any support group networks for victims or especially parents of psychopaths?
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 04/30/17 05:49 PM

My son has been released now from his fourth residential program. Of course they claim he has had no recent problems and no longer requires these services. The courts and social workers agreed to send him to a local foster home. He is now with an older single foster mother and and another 17 year old foster child who is ready to age out of the system soon. I believe this foster mother will keep me informed and my son and not put up with being fooled. My fear is that he has learned to control himself and we may be pressured to take him back. I know from experience that any control he has is usually short lived. We visited him over the weekend and he was fine, but he usually is on short visits. He was still very consuming, always asking to buy something or go somewhere without any consideration to the needs of the rest of the family.

My family continues to isolate ourselves mostly out of habit and also just because we don't need any one else in our business and finding out our dirty little secret. We are afraid of outsiders judging us. We also just don't have much time.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 05/10/17 06:32 PM

I was talking a bit about RAD and Conduct Disorder today on the show that will air on Tuesday, thanks to your suggestion. I have read them all but not in one sitting and the interesting thing is they all lead to no conscience. I wonder where people think these kids come from, dropped from the sky. I know it is controversial, I remember a few years ago some members leaving the forum because I was allowing and talking to parents who needed support. If you think living or working for one is bad enough, mention you think a kid is a psychopath and people pretty much go sideways.

I can understand your need for isolation and it is a horrible thing on top of everything else you have to go through. I can also imagine your entire family must be struggling with severe PTSD which can only make things worse.

I hope they keep him out of your home. Who believes you? Do family members understand or are you left all alone to deal with it?

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 05/13/17 07:26 PM

I've been listening to your podcast. psychopath in you life. They are really good. People always want to answer the question, how did this happen or why did this happen? There is so much evidence now for psychopaths being genetically predisposed, I still wonder why it is so hard for people accept that a child might just be a psychopath and there is no reason for it but his genes. We are not perfect parents but we have two other birth children who are kind, smart, sensitive and the biggest mental problems they have is processing the stress of dealing with their adopted brother.

We have the support of a really good social worker, our family psychologist, our lawyer, and I think some of the legal advocates for my son assigned to the case are beginning to see the truth about him, although they have to keep advocating for reunification. Personally, family members no longer judge us and I think get it, but don't fully understand. My wife has found that educators often get it because they are used to working with kids like this. However, his teachers usually don't get it because they are being manipulated by him. It's just really hard sharing your heart about it because the conclusions we come to seem heartless and hopeless, but that is the reality of a psychopath. Now that he was released of course many want to say he is getting better and push us to conclude the same, we have just been there too many times to get hopeful. Even the aleged improvements are often manipulation.

We just had an incident this week where he was bit by a neighborhood dog at the foster home, yet he wanted me to buy him a leash so he could take another neighbors dog on a walk. I did so but had reservations. He is not a dog lover, nor is he compassionate toward the elderly dog owner, but he pretended to be. I reported to the case workers that he had a leash, but I was unsure of his intentions for the dog or for the leash. Sure enough when the case worker investigated, he was trying to keep the leash a secret, and cursed out the case worker for asking. He was obviously up to something with this and didn't want people asking about it. I suspect he wanted to abuse the dog or use the leash to hurt himself or another. The sick thing is I wanted him to have the leash so he would get caught doing something psychotic. This is the type of heartless conclusions I must come to in order to keep him out of my home. How could I share this with a friend who would then think I am the monster? I have left him to abuse, manipulate, and hurt unsuspecting strangers rather than to let my family be further victimized by him. Should I feel guilty, heroic, or just pragmatic? Or should I just stop feeling and continue doing what I have to do?
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 05/14/17 05:41 PM

Hi, DadofRad, thank you for your kind words, it is quite difficult but with time I am sure I will improve. I am really trying to focus on content so hopefully, while I find my legs people will understand. My four legged girl Lynda has entered the recording a couple of times with her squeak toy. My other boy Marcos just goes into the room and is silent. They are struggling also because they don't know why I am in the room talking to myself;) I am of the thought that if we don't keep speaking out this subject will just dissolve into more confusion than already exists.

Your son was 17 months old. Was it through an agency I assume? I have always wondered about adoptions and it seems like we only read about the bad ones so to speak and not the successes. I wonder what got them into the position to be adopted, was the family wiped out and no one to care for? I have this theory and it is only something I have been thinking about. When I used to read the RAD group on Delphi back in the day when forums were active I started wondering about all the discussion there when they seemed to blame the parents. I wonder if it is possible that the child shows no attachment so they, in fact, are the ones doing the rejecting and not bonding, not the other way around. Then if you put a parent with the same gene into the mix they would both be rejecting each other. Maybe that is why they end up in care if it isn't for some other acts of nature reason?

I think it was the Mayo Clinic RAD piece I read on the show that will show air this Tuesday that they pretty much didn't place any blame on orphanages etc. Typically people seem to blame the birth parent for not being there to bond or in some cases the institutions. I pretty much resist that theory because a lot of people can have some very alarming childhoods and don't end up being psychopaths. It is from the first breath, they don't just drop from the sky.

I am glad you have what support you do have. It is a situation that I don't know how I would respond. I think as far as the leash you are just being honest in your actions. There has been a pattern that every six months these reports are minimizing his behavior and the threat of him returning to your home must be a very conflicting position. I do find it alarming that he is allowed to have access to neighborhood pets. Maybe that is how they are gauging his "progress"?

I can only guess but if it were me I would do what I had to do to protect my family. If you don’t protect your family, who will? You are their strength and that is to be admired and not criticized. I don’t think it is ever anyone else’s right to criticize when they are not in your position. The old saying walk a mile in my shoes comes to mind.

I think people reject the concept of children and women in their thinking about psychopaths.

All my best,

NOTE: For anyone new reading, you can click on members names and their posts will show up so you can read their stories.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 05/14/17 07:06 PM

My son came from a country where single mothers are not accepted so she either has to give him up or choose a life of singleness and poverty for the rest of her life. He was given up at birth and was in an intitution where he got a high level of care and most other children from there do have success stories. We were very attachment oriented parents and did everything to create strong physical a and emotional bonds. How sad to find in the end that he was incapable of that love. after studying him and trying to fix him for so many years, this makes the most sense -psychopath.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 05/15/17 11:55 AM

Hi, Thank you for answering my question. I think that orphanages or care facilities can get a bad reputation that is undeserved. I remember years ago a documentary about the orphanage situation in some country, I forget which one that painted a pretty grim picture. I hope that people reading here will not get disturbed and start thinking that adoption = psychpath. I know we have had a few adoptive parents here over the years but in balance, we have had an equal if not more comments from bio parents.

I can say that parents have been the hardest to continue to hear from. There are many over the years and like I mentioned above, please just click on their names and select "View Posts" and you can see what they have talked about.

There is still a lot of work to do to communicate about this issue. Hugging them will in fact not make them better, well it will make them better at disguising what they really are and give them better tools to hide behind. One thing they have known for years is that therapy does indeed make the situation worse. So then you combine this with the only effort out there is to get these kids into therapy I guess we will have a smaller amount of them entering the prison population but what that translates to is anyone's guess. Does it pass each generation to the next, does it skip a generation, so many questions, so few answers.

I am thankful that you continue to tell your story. It is an important one and it appears by the views that quite a few people are reading about these issues with young psychopaths.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 05/18/17 04:35 PM

It seems like RAD is starting to get the attention of the media. I was doing keywords for my new podcast and RAD ranks right after the word Psychopath.

This is a pretty good article but keep in mind these checklists are only for a beginning point. The real way is by observing behavior but we are making progress by getting such a lengthy article posted.

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 05/20/17 09:16 AM

Regarding the podcast on diagnosis (5), My son did have ODD for a while. Only a couple doctors suggested CD. Even that is very stigmatized in child counseling circles. One doctor, who I disagreed with told me bluntly he is not CD because he is not a psychopath. How about just evaluating the criteria? ODD fits but doesn't cover the manipulation, gas lighting, and lack of a conscience or attachment

The article you sent is good for discussion. However, it makes it seem that these characteristics are easy to track. These kids are so manipulating, they can fool experts which I know personally is true. I found it interesting that even though the guy who went through the program was acting above the law now, he was still making his wife and child miserable and putting them at risk. I can certainly see this happening with my child. I wonder also how much of the guys "remorse" was contrived. My child is largely unsupervised now and hanging out with kids in a lower income neighborhood. I wonder how long he can last without getting in real trouble or how many things he's doing now that nobody is reporting. I do hear of minor incidents, but those are just the one's adults know about. My son does seem to respond to a points system and rewards to some degree, but it was just impossible to maintain in a home setting and be fair to the other children. Also, I found that whenever I offered him reward for good behavior it would backfire and he would miss the reward and then have a tantrum for missing the reward.

Dianne, I have a request, could you compile a list of recommended books and movies. I know Hare mentions several. My list is:

The Psychopath next door, Martha Stout
psychopaths in our lives, Dianne Emmerson
Without a conscience, Hare
Price of silence, Liza Long (about childhood mental illness in general, not sure if I agree with her fully. She got people talking about it with this blog:
Stranger beside me, Ann Rule (next on my list)

We need to talk about Kevin
Bad Seed
Stranger beside me (haven't seen yet)
I know Hare mentioned several movies and you mentioned a new Bundy film was coming out.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 05/20/17 01:57 PM

Hi, I keep stressing to not rely on checklists because of those reasons.

A great place to first check for books is [][/url]
I buy from Better World Books there, they do literacy things and you can usually get a good used copy for the price of shipping $3.99 or so. And never had a problem with them.

I will work on the list. As far as true crime I recommend Ann Rule or Jack Olsen. They really go into the psychology of the family life etc. the very best. Jack Olsen has a great book called Son about a socialized psychopath who came from a fairly wealthy established family. I won't give the book away but clearly, he got the gene from his mother. Another about a female psychopath is Ann Rule's Bitter Harvest. Both she and her husband were Drs.

I want to check into the We Need to Talk about Kevin book to see how it is compared to the movie. Sometimes these book adaptations go a bit off the rails.

I tried to buy a copy of the book that Bundy's girlfriend of 7 years, while he was on the killing spree, wrote. The cheapest price I could find was $140 or so it is off my list. I don't hold much hope for the movie if it is just about the girlfriend. I would like them to talk about is the horrific family life which Ted says was wonderful. There is some pretty compelling thought that his father was his grandfather who was a very violent person. I would venture to say if this is true the gene came from him. I talked about that today how complicate the reporting can be with family, professionals etc. Heck, the girlfriend stuck by him for all those years, even Ann Rule was on his side for a long time.

This is the transcript and the video This article talks about his actual home life which is no way close to the interview above how Ted describes things.

I mentioned this forum in an upcoming episode to suggest that if parents want some support this would be the place to check out.

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 05/31/17 06:19 PM

Thanks Dianne, I would still like to see more of an official list. I listened to Hare's book on audio so I did not catch all the movies/books he referenced. I really liked the Bad Seed movie, but I know more were mentioned.

On Friday night I took my sons's cell phone from him due to the inappropriate pictures and posts I saw on Facebook and Instagram from him. A child from school had given it to him and in 3 weeks he had become very addicted to it. He sobbed almost out of control for 40 minutes. I got him to the Dr.s. office and tried to calm him down. At one point, he walked out of the office and the Dr. was about to call the police. But I ran after him. He came back and calmed down and spoke to the Dr. privately. I had promised him that I would try to return the phone after I figured out how to put child safety on it. For the most part, he was upset because he wanted to text his girlfriend.

After reviewing their texting conversation, this is what I found:

She was sexually propositioning him for video sexting.

He was asking to get together with her for sex.

They had multiple video conversations.

He had very manipulative and lying behaviors: threatening to kill himself multiple times (if she left him), he pretended his Mom had been killed by thugs, he had his leg broken by them, and he had lied to cops on her behalf. He claimed to be 14 and also 11.

She also threatened to kill herself and claimed that she had ran away and the cops were looking for her.

The school reported that they had been teaching Internet Security and that it sounded like he had taken their advice and used it to manipulate his girlfriend (specifically threatening to kill himself). The lying and manipulation was laughable because it was so unbelievable, but it shows how he is testing and refining his skills. He is only 13 now, imagine those same skills refined as an adult. He was able to keep from becoming violent or threatening which is good for him, bad for us. If he continues that level of self control, we may have a hard time defending our case in court. Next court is in August. Most likely we will still be able to argue for more time regardless of how things progress.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 06/02/17 01:42 PM

Hi DadofRad,

I have said this many times, I just don't know how you do it.

I can't say for certain because there are not any studies that I am aware of but it is my belief that this suicide thing is a ploy and tactic. I think with "normal" people it can be a cry for help. I just don't see that with a psychopath. I have heard this being used too many times in the past to believe it.

Do they sometimes commit suicide, certainly but I think the number is pretty low. I think when they are starting to lose their grasp on a situation the threat to commit suicide seems to work to get the victim back in the picture.

Will this facility even allow him to have the phone back? I am kind of surprised that he got away with having it in the first place but I don't know the procedures at these places. It seems like a horrible idea all the way around.

I will get to the book list when I can. I think we have some lists here on the forum so will certainly look into it. I won't be able to get started on it for awhile. I just ordered the book, We Need to Talk About Kevin. I am curious to see how it compares to the movie version.

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 06/03/17 08:19 AM

Thanks, he is in a foster home right now, which is just a regular foster parent, with a little special needs education. She knew about the phone but didn't investigate it. There are valuable skills a phone can help with. Most phones have child safety features you can use too. I was listening to the cost of silence book and she mentioned a lot of ADHD apps. Her son turned out to be bipolar and it mentioned physical symptoms of bipolar that do not match my son, plus bipolar has been ruled out for my son by other doctors.

My son was really obsessed with getting a phone and now that I took it away he is still very angry. Counsellors have already said not to give it back. He may stay angry about it and become more aggressive. I don't believe he is suicidal except when he thinks he can use it to get what he wants. Of course, I report it to keep it in his behavior records.

The movie version of stranger beside me is on you tube. It's a made for TV movie. It captures pretty well how they victimize, manipulate, and cover up and how they trap their victims.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 06/03/17 09:11 AM

Hi, thanks, I have the show on my list to watch. It must put you in a very complicated situation. Really a no win situation it appears, if you give it back to him life will be easier than having him angry. Does this foster parent have any training in how to deal with this kind of situation? I am guessing that to be a foster parent a person would have to be kind and caring, just the type of victim they seek out.

I am interested in cults and Ponzi schemes because I have yet to find one that wasn't created by a true psychopath. I ran across this show yesterday. It is a media version of what happens with a Ponzi scheme when you can dupe the most people. I had corresponded with the creator a few years ago so I can say with certainty she isn't some nutjob blabbing on YouTube. This documentary is very interesting. I know Bernie Madoff did a lot of harm but what he was missing was the media effect. It appears that the financial world is well aware of her tactics but people are still promoting her as a "good" person.

How Suze Orman scammed the middle class and poor
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 06/04/17 04:40 PM

Not sure what show you are talking about with Ponzi. You didn't mention the name.

This foster mother is not a pushover. I think she is in her late 60s at the youngest, but is ready to call the police as soon as my son get's out of control. So far he hasn't done that with her. The problem is she doesn't supervisee much and just kind of lets him do whatever he likes as long he stays in the neighborhood and is home by a certain hour. She doesn't realize what he is capable of and will trust him as long as he doesn't get in trouble. This is a low income area, so there probably aren't that many parents keeping track of the kids. Now with being a teenager, he is happy to be left alone. This is the most freedom he has ever had, so he is happy for now. It's when you start watching him and setting boundaries that he gets upset.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 06/04/17 05:59 PM

Hi Sorry for not being clear. I watch the show American Greed because they have shows that involved white collar criminals. Ponzi schemes are typically:

A Ponzi scheme (/ˈPsychopathɒn.zi/; also a Ponzi game)[1] is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate investments or business activities. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.

It is basically a way to get money from people with the lure of high returns. They usually work well until they run the course. What happens is they get people to invest and get paid very high-interest rates. They usually get innocent people to put their houses at risk and it is amazing how many people take the bait. Then people get their friends and relatives to also invest so it becomes kind of like a pyramid scheme. Eventually, the gig is up and the bottom falls out. What I found interesting about this documentary is that it is kind of a hybrid on the old schemes. In this case, it is using the goodwill of the media to dupe the public. It seems like most people in the financial world know it is a scheme but yet the public is still being sold a bill of goods.

All of these scams are run by white collar psychopaths. The smarter ones find ways to commit fraud where the money is really good and the punishment if caught is low.

The situation where you son is seems ripe for all kind of issues. It is interesting they would place him in a home where he could roam. I bet he really enjoys it. I am older so we were raised to keep ourselves busy outside and be home for dinner. Times are different now and it is interesting it is allowed. I would think they would consider him a high risk? Is he still asking about the phone? Did she know he had the phone or was it the school that found out?
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 06/07/17 06:05 AM

She knew he had a phone, he was constantly using it. But she is not technical and as long as he kept his mischief private, she had no idea. When I saw him using the phone he was using mostly innocent children's games. It wasn't until I saw his facebook profile picture and had calls from all our relatives who he invited to be friends that I knew he was being inappropriate.

I knew if he is given the freedom he will eventually get caught doing something, but at this stage it might have to go to the police to get noticed. If/when that happens that will be more than enough evidence. Now I have to balance between waiting and watching and keeping tabs, and alerting his social workers when I see something. If I alert too much, he will not share with me what he is getting into, like the other night he told me he had hit a 9 year old in the face (he is 13) and that he had plans to "get" his school counselor before school lets out. Sometimes, I think he just tells me these things to see me react, he knows I report things.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 06/07/17 01:21 PM

Hi, it is indeed a very thin line. It will probably be harder and more difficult as time goes on to find the truth and if he is setting you up. I assume he is telling you these things on the phone? It must be hard to hide your reaction when visiting in person. Is he the only foster child she has? I wonder if people do this for the love of helping or the income.

Does he just talk about general ideas or express how he plans to "get" the counselor.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD - 06/10/17 06:40 PM

She has another child that is 17. I think she just prefers to have older children who dont require much attention or effort. Yes he talks on the phone. The last conversation he refused to go to court ordered family counseling and said he doesn't want anything else to do with me. Why? Becaise I said I want to see the tablet he said was broke so i could child protect it.

Ive learned to hold my tounge with him and not react emotionally to what he does. If I do it just teaches him how to manipulate more.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 07/29/17 07:42 AM

Right now my son has been in the dependency court system for a year and they are trying to find a permanent plan for him and of course their goal is reunification. There is a Federal law that says after a year in the dependency system a permanency plan must be made. In most cases their plan is reunification. I do not know what the next hearing will bring. They may terminate my parental rights, have us continue doing what we are doing and hope that he will someday get better, or maybe some compromise in between. I’m not worried right now because I have the recent hospitalization and his foster mother requesting he be moved out as evidence that he is not any better. I also have a recent social worker staffing report that recommends another higher level of group home placement. In addition, I have my Doctors recommendation and a lawyer who will stand with us. But yes, DCF only has one agenda it seems and that is reunification. If they confront me with that again, I am going to plainly tell them that my agenda is to keep my whole family safe and protected. They can’t really blame us when I am trying to protect my family and I have reports that say my concerns are valid. However, ever temporary improvement, new placement, new therapist, or discharge from a facility that reports he is better is unnerving and I actually pray he will act up to keep my evidence current. So far he hasn't let me down.

I was reflecting on why I write here. I just wanted to get some type of digital record out there so that other parents who are going down this route will know what to do and what to ask for. Of course every country is different and every State even has different laws. Someone told me that in Nebraska you can leave your older child at a hospital or fire department and abandon them if you feel you cannot care for them, and no one will prosecute you. I do not know if that is true. In general, I would assume, most states have similar programs and similar laws.

The problems is the APA won't recognize this condition, and containment and group home care is too expensive to be covered by normal insurance means. However, I know if he had autism, there would be a lot more programs available, and even group homes for that. However, autism is recognized as a chronic child condition, ASPD/Psychopath is not. So people continue not getting help, parents live in denial or isolated helplessness, and psychos grow up without even getting diagnosed, let alone treated or restricted from hurting others. And in my case, good parents become dependency cases. Most parents only get to this point after the child has committed a crime and is forced into the court system. Even then, I know parents in that situation who still don't understand what a psychopath is and still love their child, so they bail him out, take him back, and continue living in great peril, hoping and believing that somehow their love will pay off in the end. I had to have several doctors and professionals tell me that I need to cut my losses and realize he won't get better, and he will just tear your family apart. Deep down, I knew they were right, but hope sometimes keeps you going down a hopeless path because the truth is too unthinkable and tragic to accept.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 09/02/17 09:17 PM

My son has been running away repeatedly for the last two weeks. His pattern is he texts his girlfriend or friends to meet up, meets them and then stays away for a few nights at a time. He doesn’t sleep much without his meds, so I think when he needs to crash, he gets himself caught, takes his mends, sleeps and then runs away again. He is texting and meeting up with an older boy, who sells stolen guns. He’s talking of shooting a guy, and planning to runaway to Georgia to see family. Right now he is still hanging out at the Walmart (probably stealing and selling, he calls this a hit – gangster term). I gave these tips to the police. Right now I’m waiting for him to get in enough trouble to go to Juvi. The courts can’t put him in an institution right now because some random evaluator did a suitability assessment and denied it based on a obsolete autism diagnosis. Basically, he saying my son can't benefit from the institution because he is Autistic and needs Autistic services. That diagnosis was ruled out years ago, and no doctor since has even suggested it. It’s been a very stressful couple of weeks. Every day I monitor his texts and it’s quite a drama.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 09/03/17 06:38 AM

If anyone is listening to the podcast, I am posting here some of my FAQ, at least they are questions I would have if I had a child with these problems and didn't know what to do. Hopefully, this may help someone struggling to get help:

First get records for everything. Any place that treats him or observes his behaviors should be able to provide you records. Also, Journal all the dangerous behaviors as they occur and keep an open file on this. Have this journal ready when you see a new doctor, therapist, or social worker.

What type of social services to ask for?
IEP Individual Educational Plan – The public schools can evaluate him for special services or a special school. Have all your evidence ready. Hospitalization and doctor records regarding behaviors are always helpful.
Insurance Coverage – Make sure your plans cover hospitalizations, and whatever treatment you try for. If your plans cover it, the facility still may try to bill you, but you only have to pay what the insurance says is your responsibility. Catch 22 in some cases: You cannot get into a therapeutic residential center (RTC, long term for 6 months or so) without Medicaid. Some of the premium Obama plans may cover it too. 2 ways I have gotten Medicaid: 1) Case Workers recommended an RTC and submitted request for it. 2) While he was being hospitalized under standard insurance, you apply for SSI and when SSI is approved, so is Medicaid. However, once he is returned to your care, you may lose the SSI.
SSI Social Security Disability Status – you can’t get this unless you are poor, or you apply for it while he is in an institution or hospital. To expedite this have all his records available and printed out when applying, so they don’t have to look it up.
Case Worker – A social worker is usually more aware of childhood psychopathy and dangers than schools or some counselors. Don’t be afraid to find one. I have always found them supportive. You can ask the school for a referral. The social worker can recommend a staffing for RTC placement. They are also very aware of the programs in your state that can assist. Call this person if your child is having an outburst and report all dangerous behaviors to them.
DCF – Social workers work for DCF. If you are seeking them, they are not unfairly going to investigate you. Ask for staffings to address what level of care your child needs. Also ask for DCF contacts regarding RTC placements and dependency court process for your State (if you choose to abandon him).

What type of assessments to ask for (Along with the IEP, the school usually does a FBA, psycho social assessments, and may create a plan called a PBIP. These are good records to have. A Psycho Sexual is also good if there are sexual issues. A suitability assessment is done by a psychiatric doctor as a evaluation to determine what level of care your child needs. I have only seen these done in the court system.

What type of lawyer to talk with? dependency lawyer. Not family law or custody. Interview them first and get a feel if they will be supportive and if they are knowledgeable about this process. Not many I interviewed were.

What to look for in psychologist or psychiatrist: one with prison experience or at least one that is older with years of experience working with troubled children. It usually doesn’t take long to figure out if they get you and your child or not. If not, don’t waste your time and find another one.

Other institutions to consider (Military Schools, Boarding schools, foreign schools, Religious Group Homes/ Boarding Schools) – We checked into many of these. Most wouldn’t take our child because he was too dangerous. Military may be a good option if they can get accepted. Many psychopaths do well in the military because it has a strong structure, reward system, and they can also use their lack of empathy strategically.

How to safeguard your home: Lock away knives, chemicals, and most things that can be used as a weapon. We had to put locks on every door in the house except his room, so we could keep him out of our bedrooms and rooms with tools and chemicals. We also removed his door because he would slam it and use it as a weapon. Some people use security cameras inside, but I chose not to.

How to get him hospitalized. In our State there is a law that any person can be hospitalized if his behavior is dangerous to self or others. This can be ordered by a doctor or therapist, voluntary, or police can do so. You may want to check your state laws and ask your teacher or social worker. The hospital must have a psychiatric children's ward, and you should ensure it is covered by your insurance. The more he is hospitalized, the more diagnosis and records you can get, and the more other professionals will take your matter seriously. I do not believe we would have gotten his IEP without this, and I do not believe he would have been recommended for a institution without this. Even if he is not having a fit at the time, you can take him to a hospital with a psychiatric children’s ward and admit him voluntarily. Make sure your insurance covers, because this is not cheap. Calling the cops is usually not effective unless the child is raging when the cops arrive. They won’t see the need. Still don't hesitate to call the police if your child is acting dangerously and is out of control. Your psychiatrist or therapist can also write a letter at the time recommending hospitalization. Ours actually came to our house once, wrote the prescription and spoke to the police. After that, the police were always willing to hospitalize him.

How to keep your records up to date when he is out of the house – Call regularly and keep communication open with your child. You will often get clues into what is happening. Speak to the staff and ask how he is doing, maintain a good relationship with the staff and open communication. Request daily behavior records from management. They will push back on this, but in our State, they are required by law to provide all records to parents, if asked in writing. Review your State Statutes regarding medical records. You can usually find these online. Several times I have had to send a demand letter from a lawyer to get these because they are so reluctant to turn over records. Hospitals are more accountable though and you can usually request online or by fax. Also, ask for the full chart from any hospital he is admitted to.

How to push back on institutions who want to dismiss your concerns – Have your records ready, first speak to some managers about it, and if they are not helpful file complaints against the institution. There are many local and federal agencies to file complaints with, search for them online. Also look at the institution's website and find what agencies they are licensed with. You can file complaints with those agencies.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 09/05/17 04:25 PM

Thanks very much for all your work in this area, I know there are people out there who really need this information and your list will really help people with their struggle and at least know where to start. I am not sure if we will get parents to comment because it is always more complicated but if you look at the views people are reading. There is a way for people who don't want to register etc. to see what the latest posts are. I don't remember how to do it so perhaps we can figure that out so people in their own privacy can follow any new conversations if they don't want to register. If you do want to register the software will keep track of what posts have been read. If you don't for your own reasons want to register we will sort out how to search on the forum to see the latest comments. If you do register know that this is private software and I never went the free software route because that way it would make it impossible for information to remain private. These days it is simpler than in the early years because you can create new email addresses. I also suggest if you want your privacy to keep your history on your browser cleared off and log in each time and don't select to stay connected.

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Adopted Child & RAD - 06/23/18 05:38 PM

Interesting day yesterday. The client hasn’t given me a final offer yet, so I did not announce anything, I think they are waiting for the background check to clear. However, the main client lead mentioned to my psycho boss that I would be leaving and what were they planning to do about it. He was shocked and then came to me with BS about “you should have told me, I could have written a reference. It makes us look like we don’t have good relationships….” Really, after the way he has treated me??? Knowing my son, I would guess this guy doesn’t have a clue. In his mind, he has done nothing wrong or counterproductive, he is a saint in his own mind and he believes everyone likes him. If anyone has a problem with him, it’s obviously their issues. In the meantime, I know he’s probably had half a dozen HR complaints against him, and I should have filed about half a dozen more, but was too afraid to. Maybe I made the right choice in light of what I knew about him, my own PTSD, and the level of manipulation he had already spun against me. Maybe I should have stood up and kept him accountable. He’s a coward so he probably would have backed down, but then tried to sabotage me covertly. It is interesting that I know that for the first year (I’ve had two with him) he made every effort to make me look bad in front of the client, my peers, and even vendors. The client saw through it and made me as their first choice in this management job. I do feel vindicated and thankful. I do believe God had a hand in it and made a potentially disastrous career killer into a career launcher because I chose to persevere instead of give up or fight back.

Regarding my son, he continues to have good days and bad days and usually cycles with good months and bad months too. He just recovered from a very bad month or two in April and May and has improved since then. But the courts and therapists keep looking for reasons and there just are none except for he’s a psycho who needs regular med management. I try to explain that and even provide all the behavior reports from the last 5 years that show the randomness of his behaviors, but they always want to try to identify triggers.