Psychopath Kids and School Shootings

Posted by: DadofRad

Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 02/18/18 05:50 PM

I'll open the conversation up about psychopath kids and school shootings. There is a lot to talk about here. Emotionally it was very upsetting to me as I see so many similarities between my son and this killer. We just keep thinking that could be us and we wouldn't be surprised.

One thing worth talking about regrding this kid is I heard he was adopted and both adoptive parents died - heart attack and pneumonia. Just speculating, but I wonder if these deaths were a result of PTSD or maybe even he sabotaged them. Also I heard that the police had visited this kids house (while with his adoptive parents) at least 30 times. I believe that is enough to kill someone from stress or at least destroy your immune system. Our son has probably had the police come to our house for him about 6-8 times, but if he had been home instead of in the institutions we put him in, I'm sure we would be up to 30 or more visits too. The thing is everyone who knew him knew he was capable of this, and no one investigated. Even if they investigated, what could they really do with the current state of our mental health system and legal system.

It made me thankful that we had put our son in the dependency system so he could get institutional care he needs to keep him and others safe. Also, with having a judge periodically review the situation she can make rulings to restrict some of his activities and provide services that he requires.

I'm not going say anything about the gun issues except I know that kids like mine do not care about laws and they can easily find friends who will get them illegal guns if they choose to. To me the real problem is the mental health crisis in our nation and that psychopaths go un-diagnosed, untreated, and there is no way to lock up the mentally ill who are dangerous. Another problem is that schools try to integrate dangerous and special needs kids with regular kids first before a more restrictive IEP school is required. Also, a parent can opt not to enroll the student in the special ed courses or schools and keep them in regular schools, even if professionals see a danger and recommend an IEP school. Finally, the biggest failure here is the failure of the FBI to follow the leads they already had on this kid before he killed.

We are going through another emotional transition this week. My son is in his fifth residential institution and will most likely get discharged to some type of group home in April. My son continues to give us cards and letters telling how he still wants to come home. He gave a valentines card saying “I’ll be home soon” and he listed everyone in the family to say happy Valentines day to. It was spooky because he remembered family that he had only met once when he was a toddler, or that he had only heard people talk about. It felt more like a threat to us. Have you seen that in other psychos that they remember details like addresses and names like that? I’ve heard that before from some source. Anyway on top of that and the shooting, we are being asked to have the “you are not coming home conversation” with our son. Although this has been our intention since we started the court process, we have never told him that directly and I do not want to crush his hopes. But I know he really doesn't care about us, he is just trying to manipulate us to get back to a environment where he feels he can do what he wants to do.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 02/19/18 08:05 PM

Hi, the idea that this kid could have possibly and I do say possibly because I wasn't there had something to do with the parent's demise strikes me as possible. There are other ways to destroy another person. Wear them down physically is another method. That was also my very first thought and it also had me wondering. It isn't like they were old. I am also guessing what you said plus I would add they likely had a weak autoimmune system. The immune system and PTSD are what most if not all victims of psychopaths develop. Parents are on a high-speed roller coaster ride. I am not a genius but anyone can imagine what this level of stress does to the body

I am guessing here and you might help me understand better. Victims in relationships tend to become isolated them from family, friends etc. I wonder what the extended family is like for this kid. I haven't seen family members in any news clips I have watched, have you?

Sadly, I am sure you are right. You would very likely be at that 30+ police call figure. What a holy shame that doesn't start to trigger some red flags in society. That is very interesting about putting these at-risk kids in with other kids, I wonder what genius thinks this is a good and safe idea??? Scary. I also found it scary in our chat when you mentioned that these foster parents who get these kids when they are in transition aren't informed of any issues. Seems very negligent of the system to play hide the ball with foster parents. I clearly would not like to unwittingly be put in that situation.

When we had our chat on my podcast you really helped bring better clarity to me on the child psychopath issue. Parents of children were the very first ones to post at the tiny little starting forum. Over the years I must say you have been around the longest. I admire your strength and we can only keep hoping that some good will come out of this unimaginable tragedy. I don't want us to become desensitized.

Wasn't your son like 3 years old when he first tried to push or encourage your wife and daughter down the stairs?

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 02/22/18 07:24 PM

Yes when he arrived at 1.5 yrs, he was aggressive, biting and attempting to push people down the stair.

That was an interesting point about family members not mentioned. We have an extensive extended family even close by, but none of them are willing to help or take in our son because they know what we have gone through and have been burned personally by him. I'm sure it was the same for this killers extended family if there were any.

The FAPE laws require education to be Free and Appropriate, also they require the least restrictive environment to be used. Usually that means they need to have the kid in a regular public school before being placed in a more restrictive special ed school. Also, the parent has to agree to IEP evaluation and special services are only provided if the parents consent and the school agrees that special services are required. With Psychopathy, the kid is usually good at appearing normal to outsiders so getting school to see the problem can be a challenge. It the child has been hospitalized for behaviors they will not be able to deny diagnosis's from doctors. In our state, the parents can opt not to utilize the special services and keep the child in a regular school setting. If a parent decides to not use the IEP, a judge can overrule that, but first the child must be in the court system either through Juvenile delinquency or as in our case in dependency. So it's almost impossible with the current laws to keep these kids out of mainstream schools and these types of kids are becoming more and more common.

Yes, one of the foster families my son was with had no idea of his history until we told her. I believe this is negligent, unfair, and dangerous. The foster family this killer was with last clearly had no clue about the seriousness of the kids condition. This is why I maintain detailed records of my son's history. I can easily provide a new caregiver, therapist, or institution, a link to all my files where they can review extensive history and diagnosis going back for years. It's helped in most cases with counselor and guardians. There have been some institutions who refuse to regard his past diagnosis and would rather believe their fantasy that he is just a poor misunderstood orphan that they can rescue.

I didn't know the adoptive parents were not old. I assumed they were. I do believe the PTSD ultimately killed them then. We can feel our stress and blood pressure increase by just getting a phone call from our son. When he was living in our house it was just a constant war zone (and we are not normally a angry or uptight family). Also, having a kid like that will isolate you pretty quick and remove any support system you might have. No one understands, he plays people against you, and for the most part the kid appears great to everyone else. Talking about your problems with friends only makes you look like bad parents. We still have not regained anything like a healthy social life, and even the family who are close by just stopped visiting. They may also feel threatened having this kid in their lives and possibly resent us for that (my thoughts).

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 02/25/18 05:04 PM

Regarding the gun issue, I heard that if the child had been involuntarily placed in treatment (hospitalized involuntarily by police), he would be on a no gun list. Because he had been admitted voluntarily, they did not revoke those rights. My son has been admitted many times, but I'm not sure if any of them were on the books as involuntary. Even when the police had done so because of violent threat, the hospital often asked us to sign a voluntary admission form so that he could stay longer.

Funny, I just spoke to our family therapist, the one who knows my son is a psychopath. He said he was just thinking about us last week although I hadn't spoken to him in 4 months. He was making the connection of this psycho killer kid with our child. He even said he heard that people are suspecting the kid might have autism and he chuckled. This is what someone suggested of our son too. Autistic kids are not intentional killers, psychopaths are. Why does society pretend psychopaths don't exist when they are so clearly here? It's almost as though everyone thinks psychopaths are fictional characters that only exist in horror movies.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/01/18 06:47 AM

Hi, I guess from seeing the defense their goal at this point is to keep him off death row. That is something that always comes up. These ruthless killers turn a machine gun on others in a horrific way but yell like crazy to save their own skin. I will never understand this but it is so common. I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other on the death penalty but am just sharing my observations.

I haven't heard anything about any other relatives in the area speaking up?

Autism is something we never used to hear about. Is it the new cover for these kids?

We have a long way to come with this topic. I get the idea people would prefer to think these kids just drop out of the sky. There is typically always a pattern.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/03/18 06:38 PM

In my experience, they will turn to any other diagnosis except the psychopath (ASPD), and for kids it's anything but Conduct Disorder which is the precursor to ASPD. I think we need to start calling it what it is train our school counselors to better recognize a ASPD bound kid and get him services as quick as possible.

I was glad to hear that Senator Marco Rubio in FL was proposing a more comprehensive mental health screening and services for kids in Florida. It would require schools to report dangerous behaviors to the police department which would put them on a no gun list. I would support that fully knowing my son would be put on such a list (even though I also support the 2nd amendment). Here's a brief article on it.

It's only been two weeks, but it feels like this topic is old news now and will soon be forgotten until the next one occurs again. At which time the same old arguments will be made, but little will done. Am a getting cynical?

I do believe it is every parents responsibility to know what their child is capable of, and to report all dangerous behaviors to professions, and to seek out all the services that are available. The best way to do that it have them admitted to a hospital when a dangerous episode has occurred (make sure your insurance will cover it). It's a horrible process, but its worth the trouble in order to get professional assessments, records, and resources. Also, requesting a social worker will open up more resources too. If you don't have medicaid it may cost a small fee, but these people usually understand troubled kids like this and will start you on a path to getting them more help.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/06/18 07:57 AM

Hi, thanks for the link.

I agree with you about the parents being responsible to tell the authorities. The problem that I see and I prefer to see solutions but coming up blank, is if the authorities don't know what they are looking for then we are still at square one.

I did talk about the social issue surrounding these kids in today's podcast. I wish I could be more positive, but what that means to me is we need to keep talking about it.

Personally, I would like to live in a society where everyone isn't on high alert with extreme PTSD and access to high powered rifles. It is a nasty combination. How long do we expect kids to do drills in their schools? The generation before me didn't know much about these things because the biggest drills at that time were to hide under your desk in case of a nuclear attack. I was frankly shocked to hear about all the ongoing drills going on in schools. What kind of world is this?
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/07/18 05:54 AM

I had a session with our therapist last night regarding our son. He showed me a letter he had written to several newspapers, and county administrators. Basically, he was highlighting how private professions are not often included in discussions with schools about behavior and treatment. The schools counselors and administrators operate without any outside accountability or reporting to outside authorities or family practitioners who can help. If they were working with law enforcement and private therapist, they could get a clearer diagnosis based on a child's overall behavior and not just the sympathies of an empathetic teacher. In my experience, the schools are not trained to recognize dangerous behaviors and go out of their way to minimize and not report it.

So far no one has responded to his letters. And the media only listens if people are talking about gun control.....
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/08/18 08:52 AM

It is sad to watch. The psycho kid killer issue seems to have moved beyond logical ideas to logistics of how to get guns in teachers hands. It is always the answer more guns. Or we can't do anything because of all the guns out there. At some point, a person has to take a second and stop and really think. Who is behind this, well I would guess the same people all along the NRA. That is always their solution. I brought up the psychopath % into the discussion recently on my podcast. Even if you only believe that let's say 2% of the population are psychopaths = of 2K people in a school conservatively 60 or so of them could be psychopaths. I just do NOT see more guns as the solution.

You have brought up an excellent point. The system is insulated against any type of "outside" thinking. What I don't get is this shift over the years. Now we seem to work for these people in charge and the idea that they work for us seems to be lost in all of this. If over 80% of the population want some reasonable gun laws why are we talking about the logistics of arming teachers???

So the topic shifts. The minority is gaslighting the majority who want some action beyond more guns. Mental health overhaul just is a buzz word, that is all it is. It is a way to say unless you are foaming at the mouth crazy and even then there will be exceptions that allow a slobbering nut to buy a gun, why because more guns is the idea behind every conversation.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/09/18 05:57 AM

There are so many factors outside of gun control. My point is that there are many problems with most of our social systems and government agencies and gun control is NOT the central issue. You understand psychopaths better than most people in this country. Of course you know that gun or no gun a dangerous psychopath will kill if he wants to, whether using a knife, a bomb, or capturing and torturing people. Our mental health system, school system, and law enforcement is horribly inadequate at recognizing and dealing with these people and even our FBI can't seem to properly investigate this even with good leads. There are still so many important issues to address here, why are we still talking about gun control?

What we really need are people asking what are the underlying mental health issues here? How can we identify these people sooner, and what restrictions can we enforce on them to protect society as a whole? Yes gun restrictions on the dangerously mentally ill should be part of that, but a very small part of that. As mentioned, if you take away a gun from them, they will just grab a pipe bomb, or some other weapon. We need to talk about how most of these people need to be institutionalized and in long term therapy, which seems to not be even on the table for any of these discussions. Did you know we had such institutions before the 80s, but liberal politicians shut them down, releasing the dangerously mental ill on society? We desperately need to talk about resources for parents, preventative therapy,and preventative institutionalization before a dangerous child commits a felony. This has been my approach with my son, but I had to commit the crime of abandonment and pay ongoing legal fees in order to accomplish this. These options need to be available to parents and support and help need to be more accessible. So please don't pretend that gun control is the easy answer to this problem and that the NRA is the enemy. I am living with this very complicated problem everyday and I know the enemy personally.

In the meantime, while our government is not doing it's job of protecting it's citizens, we as citizens have the right to protect ourselves and taking guns away from people who want to defend themselves is definitely not the answer. If I was a teacher you better believe I would carry and I would fight for that right. I'm not going let some psycho take me and other children down any more than I am letting my son destroy my family.

You say everyone thinks more guns are the solution, it seems to me that the media, the left, and you are saying gun control is the solution. These are very simplistic and naive answers on both sides. They are band aids on a very deep problem that society as a whole doesn't have a clue about. But with your extensive knowledge of psychopaths you understand intimately that these people are very dangerous; psychopaths are dangerous, regardless of what's in their backpacks. If our society does not relearn how to deal with these people, we will continue to have mass shootings, bombings, or worse.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/09/18 02:03 PM

I was only addressing the shooting issue. The issue with getting a diagnosis etc. is clearly a part of the overall picture of what could start to work. I am not sure if I am communicating the issue properly.

I have said all along I have no thoughts about taking guns away. I do have an issue with automatic weapons that are typically used in a war setting.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/10/18 05:14 PM

I just had another discovery about my son and this shooting incident. According to this article:

"A separate report by RealClearInvestigations found that Broward County was part of a “vanguard of a strategy, adopted by more than 50 other major school districts nationwide, allowing thousands of troubled, often violent, students to commit crimes without legal consequence.”
This was part of a larger Obama administration effort, launched in 2011, to reduce racial disparities in school discipline numbers, according to RealClearInvestigations."

This explains a lot. My son was running away in one of those counties too last year and was continually caught commuting crimes such as shop lifting, breaking into neighborhood cars at night, and even breaking the window of a Sprint store. No investigations, charges, or criminal records were even taken regarding these incidents. It seemed that he would probably have to seriously hurt someone before the county law enforcement would give him any consequences. Finally they charged him when he pulled a fire alarm in a public building and he now has a series of Juvenile court assignments to do, like writing reports, and doing some small service. But really? Pulling a fire alarm get's more consequences than breaking and entering?

Now I understand. This killer had dozens of incidents similar to my child including bringing bullets to school, assault, etc.
If at the very least they had filed reports on this and put it on his record he would not have passed the federal background check. Further, if he had legal consequences and was under court supervision, the whole incident probably would have been averted as a judge would have been assessing this and making court orders to restrict him. This policy was designed to put an end to the “school to prison pipeline,”. It was a policy enacted by the democratic party based more on political agendas and wishful thinking than common sense. The results were frustrating in my case, but tragic in the case of those 17 families. Bad ideas have victims. I just hope that this shooting incident will cause our government agencies to reverse some of these bad policies and at least ensure a child who commits crimes gets real consequences and it goes on a permanent record.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/12/18 01:31 PM

Thanks so much for sharing the link, when does it stop. This is just incredible to find out. I thought shooter drills were surprising (to me at least) and now this it doesn't make a bit of sense. They are training them in school and the police are looking the other way. Am I reading this correctly?

I can certainly understand your outrage and concern. I think more people should be outraged. It doesn't matter if you have one of these kids in your life or not, everyone should be very concerned. I received a few emails after my last podcast about my position on guns. I just wish we could figure out a way to get something done. I am sorry to be negative but I just don't know. I am really glad to see any progress. I am concerned that it won't be even close to being enough.

Every day I see or read some "new" plan to tackle the issue, will it be enough or in enough time?
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/13/18 11:38 AM

How to Tell if your Child is a Psychopath
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/16/18 08:01 PM

Yes, the programs related to ending the high school to prison pipeline has the effect in our county that a kid can get away with criminal behavior and not even get a juvenile record or any consequences to speak of. I wonder if the reason my son finally got a mild consequence could be related to the fact that a judge was overseeing these incidents because he was in dependency court and may have ordered it. We are breeding psychopaths--normal people are having less children and a psycho will breed without any regard to consequence. Plus we are training kids toward these behaviors with media, video games, and porn and we are providing no consequences when they act up. Again, there is no way to keep them out of the public school system. These incidents are going to get worse no matter how much of an outrage there is unless we start to deal with the real issues here. These psychopaths are on the rise, and our culture will not even acknowledge they exist.

Great article and so much to comment on.
The story sounded similar to mine, a family terrified of their threatening son, now surrendering custody so he would be in a institution, trying to find a therapy that may help. Yes, the infant behavior sounds similar to what we experienced too--biting during breastfeeding, and not being disturbed when another child is hurt. I agree that a highly structured reward programs seem to be the most effective.

I was amazed to see such an accurate analysis of psychopath children in our culture, but then I realized, it wasn't an American Article, but originated in the AU. Our country seems to be in denial on a lot of psychiatric issues, but I will keep my focus on psychopaths. We pretend that every child is a blank slate and all they need is good parenting, boundaries, and love to be a great adults who are stable, productive, and happy. This is a belief system based on humanism that is just false. This article brings out the truth that anti-social traits can be seen a child from birth and are even present in brain scans. I had heard that before about brain scans, but never actually saw an example. I had my son visit a neurologists to scan for abnormalities, and they reported no problems. I think they were only looking for tumors and probably wouldn't have reported those type of abnormalities to me even if they found them. I asked our psychologist if psychopathy was detectable by brain scans and he said no. Once again I wonder if this type of research is politically censored in our country.

I am skeptical of the empathy therapy they mentioned because in my experience training a psychopath to recognize how he may be hurting another person does not keep him from hurting others. I think it only trains them on what to say or how he is supposed to react, but in his perverse thinking, he wins when he hurts people (even when the consequences are bad). This exercise only reinforces to him that he hurt someone else (which he is inherently proud of). When I shared that portion of the article with my daughter and wife, my daughter said she thought the therapy was BS too, but waited to hear my opinion.

I will put "the psychopath whisperer" and “Conduct Disorder and Severe Antisocial Behaviour,” on my book list. Also Taming Toxic People: The science of identifying and dealing with psychopaths at work & at home, by David Gillespie, looks good. Have you read them? This Mom Quillian, is she the one that had the facebook group? If not, are you aware of her group or how to contact? BTW, I started reading the Predator book you recommended but stopped. It was too disturbing for me, and I concluded that the child he was describing was at least not a genetic psychopath because he clearly had feelings of empathy, regret, and guilt as a child. So in my black and white thinking he was not a psychopath, but maybe just someone who had been corrupted and perverted by life's bad. But this is also our cultural humanistic narrative that psychos are not born but made, so being fiction, it may have been embellished to support that belief.

Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/18/18 02:56 PM

I think addressing the problem at many angles is a good thing because there are many factors that enable these psycho kids (or adults) to do what they do. Guns, the Internet, porn, video games, and violent media are all social factors that should be better controlled to protect society as whole from easily influenced and unstable people. Also, unless the person is living alone in isolation, there are people who know and should be concerned about his behaviors. These incidents never happen in a vacuum and usually someone in that person's life knows they are a threat. The more we can do to spot and interrupt these behaviors, the better. Also, as mentioned the fact that school, private therapists, hospitals, and institutions that deal with these children (or adults) are working in isolation is a huge problem. If these professionals were required to come together to create a consensus (which happens when the case is turned over to the court) these people would not slip through the cracks so easily.

The biggest problem I see in our culture is a psychological and educational community that is so committed to the notion that killers are made and not born, it renders them incapable of diagnosing a personality disorder even when it is staring them in the face. And when the criminal is a child, the blinders are even higher. You can NOT address a problem when you refuse to acknowledge it. It is interesting to me that therapists who work in prisons or psychiatric hospitals are more ready to correctly diagnose it. Also, my wife who is an educator has found that principals (not teachers) are more capable of recognizing a child like this for what he is because they have more experience actually hospitalizing these children when they are out of control. I know even for myself, I had to have these real life experiences with this before I could see that my idealistic notions of parenting and child development were not based on reality.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/18/18 04:00 PM

Interview with parent of psychopath

I don't agree with Keil's idea of psychopath and Psychopath. I think it is all splitting hairs.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/18/18 05:15 PM

The link didn't work for me.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/19/18 01:27 PM

It is a weird one but if you sit there for a minute the recording starts.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 03/20/18 10:44 AM

Another day, another shooting. This time it did work having an armed officer at the school. Now if this person had an automatic rifle things would have been different.

Another school shooter

The question remains, do I think an armed officer stops these attacks, yes and no. In this small of an area, the shooter would possibly have known there was an armed officer on the premises. Did that stop him? No.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 04/24/18 08:58 PM

I did get to see the video's about the parents group
They also have a Facebook support group, but I would never recommend someone sharing these very personal details about your child on a public platform like FB. There really is no privacy. I've learned that even sharing these details privately with a friend is usually misunderstood and judged based on the fact that most people really do not understand what a psychopath is.

I'm so glad it's being talked about on mainstream media. Any coverage of this is good. Having said that, I know some have concerns about Dr. Keil misleading parents stating that 80% of the kids grow out of it. Knowing now what a psychopath kid is and knowing the medical documentation on it, that is probably unlikely.
The doctor also uses the term brain disorder rather than the textbook definition of a psychopath Anti-Social Personality Disorder (ASPD). I don't claim to be a doctor or understand the difference completely, but I think ASPD is something that just is with your brain functions and cannot be changed. A brain disorder is caused by a variation or mutation in a gene or is inherited. In that sense BD confirms Dianne and my suspicions that a psychopath (usually) is not made but born, but this definition does not conform to DSM-IV (textbook) definition for psychopath/ASPD.

I do see and read that a psychopath/ASPD can't really get rid of it completely, but perhaps he is saying that most learn to manage it to the point they can appear normal in most circumstances. Also there are degrees of the condition, which will make it more or less manageable, and the likely existence of co-morbid conditions that can complicate it and make it more dangerous.

My son's condition is very serious, but to someone just casually observing him for a day may not notice anything out of the ordinary. I think my son would be in jail if it wasn't for him being in institutions and our County having lax policies on juvenile crime. Will he one day have a developed enough mental capacity and chemical stability to keep out of trouble, and out of institutions? Maybe. Will he ever be completely free of having outbursts, aggression, and threats? I don't believe so. Also we are totally dependent on med management. If he is off meds or needs adjusted, he goes out of control, which has just happened again in the institution he is in. Perhaps when he is fully grown, his medications may not need adjusted, but they are adjusted based on his behaviors, which are not predictable. So much of the outcome is dependent on these factors that no one has control over, full understanding of, or ability to forcast.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 04/25/18 01:44 PM

Hi, I was taken back by the talk about being a brain disorder. I have never heard that and I do consult with experts and have never heard it referred to anything but a Personality Disorder according to the DSMV. Also I was confused about his work with identifying it in the brain. I know there is some work going on in this area but I just did a recent search and came up empty. I share your thoughts about it is great to get some information in the public arena but not sure that any news is good news.

For example, if Keihl said, according to this reasearch, blah blah I would have felt like I learned something new. To me, it sounded like speculation and possibly false hope. It is too bad that the APA and the PCLR can't get together and help clear this up for us.

I think we have to go by observations at this point which is sad. I also think he said it all begins with Conduct Disorder and my understanding is the first step on the diagnosis is Oppositional Defiant Disorder before Conduct Disorder. I have asked a couple of psychiatrists and they both said the same thing about how the diagnosis progresses. Maybe I am nitpicking here but it stood out to me.

I listened to it a few times because the figure of 80% of kids growing out of this kind of diagnosis caught my attention. Like I said before if he had stated some study other than what appears to be his views I would feel differently. I clearly do not have his degrees but even I know better than to cite information without any sources.

The situation you are in is exactly what I have heard for many years now. Few outside of the family are usually targeted and even within the family circle they can isolate victims to create the image of everything being okay. It takes work and observations to dig deeper like you have done. I feel like this new information is very misleading and full of false hope. I would like to challenge anyone that claims it is the fault of the parents. How did the rest of the children in the family end up just fine. It is time to stop bashing the parents and also time to make sure what we are getting from these experts is the correct information. I would encourage others to do a search for Dr. Kent Kiehl and share your views. I always want to be open to new research so perhaps these few comments he made have given me a bias against his work and am very open to hearing your views. I agree that modifying behavior will lessen the total impact down the road but it will never go away according to the experts that I have heard on the subject.

We never hear about these shooter kids getting a diagnosis. There are tools out there to diagnose or at least give us some idea. If we can't even figure out what these killer kids are but have to guess at it what about all the parents out there like yourself who are ignored and not understood?

I agree about Facebook we are no longer publishing the podcast there. There have been times that people have messaged me from there and I don't want people to not be safe. I am closing down the small account I used there and I have nothing to hide so user beware if sensitive information is being discussed there. The main issue I have is that Facebook only apologized when they got caught and then continued on until caught again. It only took 300K people to fill in that survery to capture over 85 million peoples information. I have all the links about what is going on with Facebook that I copied during the latest breach which they hid as long as they could. I know if I had a psychopath in my personal life I would consider Facebook a high risk place to be.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 04/25/18 07:33 PM

I think his work (Kiehl) is based on the criminal types which makes sense because his "studies" are with those in youth custody.

I found it confusing to listen to so will welcome feedback. The conversation drifts into another one so not sure what it is all about. this video shows his mobile brain scan in action.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 04/27/18 06:35 AM

I am not sure if this is relevant but it is a new study about child psychopaths. I can't figure out how to access the file

Psychopathy in childhood: Why should we care about grandiose–manipulative and daring–impulsive traits?]
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 04/27/18 06:51 AM

I watched the videos linked. I don't really find too much disturbing about Dr. Keil. As mentioned, I know his terminology of brain disorder is not accurate according to the DSM-V, and I'm not sure the rest of the medical field affirms that psychopaths can be detected in a brain scan consistently. However, what I do like is that he is dispelling the myth and pop-psychology notion that psychopaths are result of bad environments. The reality is they have bad genes and have a genetic problem. There really is nothing a parent or environment can do to change someone's personality and that is the message that our culture has a hard time accepting. Also, there really isn't anything you can treat these people with that will suddenly get their brains working correctly enough to feel empathy, emotion, or have a conscience.

Some comments on the commentary:
1) I thought it was laughable that they were analyzing Dexter and his level of psychopathy. This is a fictional character that is not a true psychopath, but Hollywood's portrayal of one. Irrelevant.
2) I'm not familiar with scale 1-40 of psychopaths. I think this is Hare's scale, is that correct?
3) I thought it was interesting that they rated presidents on the psychopath scale and figures like Clinton scored high and Carter scored low. I tend to believe that. Really successful psychopaths are great at spinning a situation to get out of trouble, manipulating others to get what they want, making heartless decisions to further an agenda.
4) I liked the fact that he brought out how their behaviors can be modified through positive re-enforcement. I saw that in another article, and I see that in my son who while in an institution, has a lot of motivational programs to progress through achievement levels to get privileges, etc. I do agree that he does best in those environments, and he really needs that highly structured easily achievable reward system. It backfires though when he slips up, doesn't receive a reward and then gets upset. Also, he has tendency to begin not to care about rewards, for the sake of rewards, it has to be something he really wants.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 04/28/18 01:55 PM

Thanks for your thoughts. I may be missing something.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with his comments about the Clintons etc. The rest of us can clearly sit around and speculate but typically a researcher doesn't use movies or public figures and offer a diagnosis without any contact or testing of the individual. I am not sure about this idea of saying this public figure is a psychopath or not is appropriate for any actual researcher to say. I can observe that typically Ponzi schemes, cults etc. are typically run by psychopaths. I am only speculating based on my observations. I can see that many people in power clearly must not have a conscience in order to do what they are doing.

The Hare checklist is based on criteria of 20 items, I could be using outdated information but that is my understanding. I will ask a researcher that I communicate with about this figure.

I do agree that the home environment doesn't dictate is a person is a psychopath or not. The best of homes or the worst of homes. I see the difference in the more educated the less likely they will get under the eye of the law and also perhaps the parents with more financial means can bail the kid out quicker than those with less financial resources. That said it is NOT always the case and too much of a generalization. We understand the criminal ones better because they have been caught. There really isn't a blanket way to look at this, lots of grey areas.

Most experts agree it is the lack of conscience and it is my understanding that either a person has one or doesn't. Clearly, behavior modification can give the appearance of a conscious and help to model behavior but without a conscience, a person will never grow one. I have read about the reward system in working with young psychopaths. I agree with you, it can work and like you said it can also not work all the time. Everyone has to work with what they think will work the best.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 04/30/18 08:08 PM

From what I understand President Clinton and Carter were evaluated based on this assessment. Not sure if they volunteered to take it or if others entered in data about the person. Obviously, this is subjective even if the actual person filled it out. I don't know any public figure who would admit to manipulating, lies, and being ruthless. From what I observed, psychopaths refuse to see themselves as anything other than a super star, so how do you get an honest assessment, except to question those who know the person best? From your interviews, do you agree with that statement, or were your psychopaths more self-aware?

At any rate, you are right, just throwing around names and statistics without any references to how these were measured is not very honest or scholarly.

Assessing Dexter may be an amusing assignment in a college psychology class, but I can guarantee you that the Dexter character is a dramatization to the point that it does not accurately portray a psychopath consistently. I have seen Hollywood continually try to empathize with psychopaths to the point they just don't get it - These are not damaged people, they are hopelessly and genetically deranged people. There isn't a good side to these people any more than there is a good side to a snake. They just are what they are and do what they do, and they have such a lack of moral compass, they will not choose victims who deserve to be victims. They choose victims just because they can and they are cowards, so they will usually choose easy targets.

Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 05/01/18 09:24 AM

I came away from interviewing them that they are more self-aware than I ever would have guessed. One of them said to me that if I think they are anything but proud of what they are then I wasn't listening. Paraphrasing here. Now there are forums etc. run by and dedicated to being a psychopath.

I am not familiar with any study about Clinton or Carter. It is one thing or us to engage in "kitchen table talk" and speculate amongst ourselves. It is another thing for a "professional" to make claims without even an interview. It isn't common. I did hear that Fallon guy make a parlor game out of diagnosing famous people. He claims he is one and by his words flat affect etc. I can't argue that he is probably correct in self-identifying himself. Other than that it is unusual behavior and should cause lots of red flags to wave.

I think the ones I interviewed knew there was something about themselves that got them started looking for answers. From what they said they decided that telling the truth was important to get an accurate diagnosis. My guess is a lot of them know who they are but are very unlikely to ever submit to an evaluation.

Even when we get them in the legal system there doesn't seem to be much effort put into a diagnosis. When was the last time you heard of one of these kid shooters getting an evaluation? Jodi Arias always comes to mind, instead of hiring an expert like Dr. Gacono they hired a therapist with no training in evaluating psychopaths. She got diagnosed as being a Borderline. I don’t know how that could happen, she is clearly a psychopath from all appearances. Possibly a comingled thing but not likely so really psychopath would have made more sense as the primary diagnosis. I get irritated when I see them all get lumped together. Borderlines do have a conscience. My mother was a borderline so I am not just making wild guesses here. They may be in the same Personality Disorder Cluster but not even close to what a psychopath is.

Most of them will never get a diagnosis even if they know who they are. They have too much to risk by being exposed. That is why I think talking about characteristics to watch for is the best approach I can think of to help people make informed decisions.

I think deep down they are cowards. If you watch a true crime show, they are all full of themselves and think they are too smart to get caught. The detectives etc. all comment about their lack of emotion and the crocodile tears. They are so afraid of death for themselves they will usually take a plea deal to keep themselves off death row. Watch them during the sentencing they cry like babies. They are crying for themselves, never the victims. That is why their strategy of always being the biggest victim in the room according to them works. If they weren’t such weak cowards their actions would show otherwise. Why the fear of death row when they get caught killing a bunch of innocent people. Cowards are the word that comes to mind for me.

Hollywood rarely gets it right because of their understanding of why and how these people operate is missing from the equation. Do I really believe Dexter is such a good guy trying to get rid of the bad ones? They are all the same.

Somedays I wake up so depressed it is hard to function. I wish I could say I have seen a big change in the last 20 years but actually the opposite.

Why should they change, first of all they can't but society rewards them. I know of a full-on psychopath who is a hospital executive. Do you think he has had trouble finding work? No, they do seek them out to protect the bottom line and they will do things that no caring person could ever dream up or do.

I am glad that I didn't know 20 years ago that so little progress would be made. I would probably have never tried to make a difference because I really can't see much progress.
Posted by: DadofRad

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 05/01/18 04:07 PM

Progress will ultimately be at the cultural level. Right now there is such a predominate mentality in our culture and even in our higher education that bad people are made and not born. Changing that cultural perspective is an uphill battle and can really only be done one story at a time. I know that article you sent from Australia was far more on track than any articles you see here. That is because they are looking at it through a different cultural lens. You are getting the word out, and opening up the conversation, that is the way to begin to get people thinking differently.

As tragedies happen and people ask why is the only way they can come to face reality. Unfortunately, media gets so caught up in the gun debate, they aren't even asking the right questions.
Posted by: Dianne E.

Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings - 05/01/18 05:38 PM

As an indicator of where things are. A man on a flight recently helped out a woman who had two children having episodes. The video went viral, why because someone did something nice for another human being. The media have lost their way a long time ago. It is sad because even when caught lying they still keep their big paychecks and jobs.

I think the only way we are going to survive is to keep talking and supporting each other. I can't see any other way. Victims of psychopaths are very misunderstood and shamed for things that are beyond their control. Someday when I have the energy I will tell you the story of the "successful" psychopath who runs hospitals. Question everything. It all is about money. These people who cross many lines are very successful in terms of book sales and appearances = money. Spreading false information is a path to success but at what cost to the rest of us. We need more information not more bad information.