Hello Everyone,

I am so thankful I have found this sight, it has been a long journey here. For my whole my life
I knew there was something wrong with my mother, but I could never put my finger on what it was exactly.
I found the daughters of narcissistic mothers site, and started posting about my mother. The administrator read my posts and
said that my mother sounded like she had Antisocial Personality Disorder (with Narcissistic traits). I'm very interested to hear what you guys think

My story is as follows:

From a young age, my mother would often laugh at me if I cried because I was sad or got hurt. It was a callous laugh, as if seeing someone with intense emotions was
way to much for her to handle. Because of that, I learned that tragic events and other people's pain was something to be laughed at, so when
a friend fell off his bike, I laughed, and when a family member died, I laughed. My mother now uses this against me, and humiliates me. It is as if she does not
remember that SHE taught me to do this.

My mother was never physically violent (she has a dissability) but when my sister would misbehave, she would sometimes tell me to catch my little sister and hit her.
So I became the bad one in my sister's eyes.

My mother seems to have no shame. She has to always have her own way. Since I was very young I have always done the shopping and cooking.
One time, I bought a product at the store, and then a couple weeks later bought it again (it costs about 2 dollars). She called me to the kitchen
and started screaming at me in a HORRIBLE rage, "WHY DID YOU BUY THIS!?" And I said, I thought we needed it. "NO WE DON'T NEED IT! WE HAVE 3 OF THEM. STUPID!
ALWAYS WASTING MY MONEY. STUPID! TAKE IT BACK RIGHT NOW." I was completely silent, fighting tears. I'm sorry I said. "TAKE IT BACK NOW!" I
refused and said I wouldn't take it back then. Then I ran outside, and could still hear her screams.
That whole day, i cried and cried, and pulled at my hair in misery. When I saw her a few hours later, she gave me a smile and acted as if nothing had happened.
I asked WHY, why had she screamed at me. She said, "Because I was angry, I just had to let it out." (She said this calmly, with no shame or guilt at all).

My mother was raped when she was younger, and she talks about it with me sometimes. She has this weird look in her eyes. She does not cry when
she recounts the detail, but the weird thing is that she acts as if she does not care one bit. She also had a boyfriend who tried to kill her, and now she actually looked him
up and is in contact with him again. ????? How crazy is that!?

Despite her negative experiences, she will still want to hitch rides with people (When I'm with her!) Once she met a man in a park (who looked like a serial killer)
and started talking with him, after a couple of minutes, he offered us a ride. I talked to my mom in private and said I didn't want to go. She said 'Oh come on, it'll be
fine." Then she kept looking out at the scenery as if I were not there. I said, "No. I'm not going." "He's not bad" she says. To make a long story short, I took the two hour bus
and my mom rode with him, but boy was she angry that I hadn't gone.

She has also done things like lying under oath, and trying to still my inheritance. Her defense (It's really hers!) WTF!
By the way, she doesn't have any real friends, and she doesn't care if people don't like her.
She also does this strange thing. She will talk bad about me to others, In FRONT of me???? As if I'm not there.

What do you all think? What does this sound like.

Thanks!!!

Hi Loveguetta!

It sounds like you've been put through a lot of misery by a mother who thinks more of herself than her own daughter. I have a friend in Florida whose mother threw her down the stairs when my friend was a toddler. She ended up wearing a body cast to correct a damaged spine from the abuse. Years later, as a young woman, she tried to find out why her mother did such a brutal thing to her. The mother responded: "Even though people think you have nice legs, I'm still prettier than you." My friend never received an apology or explanation from her mother for all the vicious things she did and said to my friend. And to make matters worse, my friend's father defended his wife no matter what she did! Her mother is dead now and my friend is left with so many questions and conflict. She's concluded that her mother was just plain EVIL. And nothing my friend did or did not do could have stopped her mother's cruelty.

Horror stories like this are why people come to forums like these. We, who have been targets of tormentors and were never able to achieve closure with our abusers, find connection and understanding here. Although no amount of talking (in person or online) can erase the despicable treatment we've endured, we can begin to heal through the sharing of our common grief. There are a million words to describe rotten behavior and no matter what words are used to define your mother, the truth is that she hurt you and she isn't sorry, ashamed, or regretful for her words and actions. It's doubtful that she will ever change!

Loveguetta, it's such a shame what you've been through. I feel very sad for your suffering. Maybe I've been able to offer you some comfort or insight by what I've written. I hope so. Just know that you're not alone.


Sincerely,
mouton


*************Loveguetta, you wrote that you mimicked your mother's reaction to tragic events by laughing at them. Do you still do this?

Mouton,

thank you for your reply. It did help me. I used to think that if I could name my mother's illness it would give me some sort of magical way
to react differently to her or help her. I looked at it sort of like if we go to the doctor and are told we have the flu and what medicine to take.
With mental illness, since there is not a cure, only I can try to heal myself.

I am sorry about what happened to your friend, that is a very sad, horrible story. Some people inflict the most abuse possible and do not feel any regrets.
In response to your question, when something bad happens, often my initial response or nervous reaction is almost to laugh, but I stop myself. The other thing about having such an ill mother is that I'm always worried I'll turn into her. I am less emotional than most women I know.

What is your story?

Hi Loveguetta!

It's a good sign that you stop yourself before you respond inappropriately. Your conscious awareness and ability to "tell on yourself" (being very honest) is a strong indicator that you will not become like your mother. She behaves like she does because she never acquired an emotional check valve. In plumbing, a check valve permits a flow in one direction only. An emotional check valve allows a person to react in a kind way. When someone responds to an injury, loss, or grief of another person with compassion, that reponse becomes a bridge to our shared humanity. We feel what the other person is feeling...we empathize.

Your mother deliberately goes in the wrong direction. She is probably well aware of her hurtful behavior. And what's worse than her intentional cruelty, is the delight she takes in it! The evidence of her delight is her unwillingness to apologize and feel badly for being mean to you. My dad is a mean narcissist. He is happiest when he makes someone cry. Here is an example of his cruelty: He promised gifts to three people who really cared about him. When they were all together, my dad gave gifts to two of the people, but laughed in the third person's face and said: "You don't deserve a gift from me." He had no reason to withhold the gift from the third person. He did it just because he could. He enjoyed the look of hurt, humiliation, and confusion on the person's face. This person was so upset by my dad's emotional abuse, she had to seek conseling for her distress.

Those three people were my two sisters and me. The person not receiving a gift was my younger sister. My dad's intentional cruelty, not only devastated my younger sister, but destroyed enjoyment of the gifts for my other sister and me. A few days later, I went to my dad's house to talk with him about how he hurt my sister. Refusing to listen to the truth of his behavior, he grabbed me by the collar and threw me out of his house. I never saw him or spoke with him after that confrontation for a couple years! That was 4 years ago and he has NEVER apologized to my sister or me. He NEVER will. Such is the reality of an abusive, self-serving, nasty person.

Loveguetta, this is a little of my story. Will share more later. Take care of you.

Wow. It is so uncanny how these personality disordered persons hijack even gift-giving as an opportunity to hurt others or display their one-way obsession with their own needs, wants, etc.

My story is not quite as cruel as the one that you describe, but it was very upsetting. Our family is large and had a gift exchange among siblings. My brother insisted on being part of it, but every year he would clearly run out at the last minute to purchase something usually not even wrapping it for the intended recipient.

The last year we had the gift exchange his partner received a comb, an ice scraper, a lighter, and a six pack of beer all of which had been purchased at the local gas station/"stop and go carry out" on the way to the family Christmas party. When his gift exchange partner (my sister) couldn't contain her disappointment, my brother proceeded to pout and storm about for the remainder of the party. Ridiculous. What a selfish prick.

Hi Mouton, I am sorry you and your sister had to go through that, and that your father is not sorry. It is a part of the disorder, sadly.

Twin, what your brother did to your sister was completely wrong, what a warped sense of gift-giving.

My mother also uses gifts as a weapon to inflict pain on my sister and me so I can definitely relate.

Take care of yourselves.

Hi Twin!
Your brother's lack of consideration in buying gas station gifts is ruthless. Some could argue his side and say: "Well, at least he bought something! It's the thought that counts!" To both of these points of defense I would agree. Yes, he bought something(s). And those somethings were meaningless, insulting purchases. Secondly, it is the thought that counts. Your brother's unwrapped "gifts" conveyed this thought: "You don't matter to me, so any crappy thing I get you is good enough." There is a saying: "Love is in the details." Your brother clearly intended to detail his disgust and disrespect by the pathetic "presents" he gave to your sister. I love your label of him as a selfish prick! LOL


Hi Loveguetta!
These callous, cowardly, cruel people are like cookie-cutter humans. They are so alike in every way, even when it comes to gift-giving. I like how you worded it "warped sense of gift-giving." They don't have a wrapped sense of gift-giving, that's for sure!

I hope this season of love and joy will be happy and healthy for both of you.

You said (about your mother): "She also does this strange thing. She will talk bad about me to others, In FRONT of me???? As if I'm not there."

My mother did that. She also would call my grade school teacher, the HS principal or counselor, my violin teacher, etc, and let loose with a tirade of abuse "about" me...really terrible stuff-- nothing normal, nothing that any parent would say about their kid even if they were a cozy friend of the teacher. No. Really rotten stuff like "she's the spawn of Satan, I know what she's REALLY like, A couple people thought well, if her own MOTHER says this stuff it must be true. But more than a few of these adults recognized that she was just crazy. NO one ever came right out and told me "you're mom is abusing you" - what they did was ask me to come to their office, or stay behind in the classroom, and then privately tell me they understood that I was having some problems at home, that my mother overreacted to things, yadda--and just let me know they were in my corner. What's funny, is that at the time, I felt Humiliated by this, and I DIDN'T KNOW "WHAT" my problem at home, exactly WAS....I didn't understand about ABUSE.
My mother sounded nuts and her nasty descriptions of me weren't even logical, by any stretch of the imagination!--but I didn't recognize that she had no right to do this to me. Figured that somehow or other, I had displeased her, and I was just too stupid to figure out how.

Well of course I couldn't. She assigned impossible chores, a mountain of tasks and only an hour or 1/2 hr to do them in, exactly so she could use my "being disobedient and didn't complete them on time", as justification for verbal abuse, to mask it. In my HS years her abuse grew so wacky, people were embarrassed for me and tried to stop her in polite ways, to no avail.

Abusive people NEED to abuse others. Demeaning you, feeds their egos. It's their only method for obtaining feelings of security/safety.

When an abusive person becomes accustomed to dumping on the same person over and over (you), it becomes a strong habit, like a drug habit. A Once-a-day Meal isn't enough, and they start helping themself to little abuse "snacks" between meals. It gives them such a boost, feels so GOOD to do it, that they can't resist! It overrides their usual cautions about acting normal, keeping the mask of normalcy on.

You keep wanting to believe that your mom, despite being verbally vicious, undermining, belittling, cripplingly critical,etc, still...on some level...LOVES you, cuz your her kid. AND, she actually tells you at times, that she does, and that everything she does is in your best interests or for your own good. She uses the language of kind-hearted (non-abusive) mom's, to mask her mistreatment of you and try to cast it as 'normal.'

It was a long time before I really understood it. But understanding, helps.
Good luck digesting your personal history.



Kate

Kate -

First of all, let me say I'm so sorry about what you've gone through. One thing that resonated with me is when you said:

Abusive people NEED to abuse others. Demeaning you, feeds their egos. It's their only method for obtaining feelings of security/safety.

This is so true and I think it explains why my brother reacts so strongly when I changed the rules and would no longer take it. He needs to abuse people. He needs to exploit people. He knows no other way of meeting his needs.

Hi Twin,

Thanks for your reply. Sorry for my tardiness replying back to you. I only just today noticed the 'My Stuff' arrow and figured out how to access my own posts. duh.

But about your brother and the crummy gifts... I would sure want to exclude him from the annual family gift exchange. If you have family members who insist he be included, maybe you could fix it so that one of them becomes his gift-exchange pal.

Psychopaths totally lack the mental equipment to empathize with others. Having NO perception of how gift-givers and gift-recipients FEEL, they also have NO ability to figure out appropriate or delightful gifts for anyone. They don't believe "emotional reasoning" even exists! They believe everyone just makes "wild guesses" when choosing gifts to buy. What may or may not appeal to others, doesn't matter to them; heck, other PEOPLE don't matter to them!-except as audience, suppliers, or targets.

I learned from years of marriage to a psychopath.(I've been divorced for 10 years.) He detested holidays and gift-giving. He was INCAPABLE of having even the remotest interest in DELIGHTING our children, myself, or anyone, with a gift. His disinterest tarnished all birthdays and holidays. When my daughter was 5 and my son 3, I asked my husband to take them out shopping for a gift for my birthday. He bought a really ugly coffee mug with an "ass" painted on it so when you drank from it your lips were on the butt-crack), and it also had some vulgar quip printed on the side about fart-sucking. It was repellent and NOT my idea of a birthday gift from anyone, least of all from my sweet little kids. When I opened the box and saw it, it was like a slap in the face. My daughter blurted out (looking very unhappy), "WE wanted to get you a PRETTY cup with blue flowers on it but Daddy wouldn't let us- he made us get THIS one and said you'd like it better because it was a JOKE, but I knew you wouldn't." I told the kids, "You were right, I don't care for this one; we'll just take it back and exchange it for the pretty one that you wanted to get for me." And we did. The psychopath disowned that he'd done anything wrong, said "It's not my fault that you don't think it's funny." After that, I always arranged for other people to take my kids out to gift-shop for me. He was no better with purchases for our children; I bought their gifts.


One of the most helpful things about this forum is the affirmation I get from experience others share. Psychopaths all draw from the same bag of tricks. I didn't mention in my previous post, that the abuse I got conditioned to from my mother while I was growing up, put me at high risk for marrying a psychopath. Yep...and I did. Textbook classic case. Conditioned to viewing emotional abuse as an expression of LOVE, I was blind to his incapacity for genuine empathy and love. I was married to him for 26 years; getting myself and the kids free from him was very difficult. But that's another story.

Hi Kate,

They absolutely love to receive gifts for themselves and are particularly happy if it comes in the form of cash.

I don't think I have ever heard of a more disgusting gift. Since it seems like porn is a common thread for at least most of them my first instinct when I read about your "gift" is the pure lack of understanding and to him it probably was a joke. It shows the total lack of anyone else, what a horrible thing to do with your children there. It sounds like they were on to him, it seems these days kids get very wise about what is going on.




Twin, that is horrible, he sure has mastered how to ruin family get togethers. If it were me and I got his name I would just rumage around my basement and take something I was going to toss anyways;) or do what he did but mix up the items get a magazine or two, the ones that are just ads and are free, a few pieces of candy, some gum and a six pack of his favorite soda. Unfortunately he just wouldn't get it. It will never dawn on him how hurtful that was because he just doesn't care, the world circles around him.

The big problem is he is doing this I presume with your mother there?

Di

Oh yes. He's done this around my mother for years. To be honest, she is so thrilled that he bought anything that she can't or won't see that what he buys was inconsiderate if not abusive. Once about 5 years ago, I sent him a birthday card with a coffee shop gift card. He didn't call to acknowledge it, but when I sent him a birthday card the next year, he actually called me and said, "Last year you sent me a gift card for coffee. What happened?" Ugh. So friggin entitled.

I remember when my kids were little and I lived out of town. He'd call me to ask why I didn't bring them over to his apartment. Most of all, I wanted my children to bond with their grandmother/my mom and I mentioned that he was welcome to come over to mom's condo while I was there and that the kids loved the toys she had for them, the high chair, the playpen, etc. He went into a fit. "You think your better than me. You don't want your kids to like me."

I told him that it wasn't true. But I also asked him if he thought that his place was baby proof enough for a 1 1/2 year old and a 4 1/2 year old. The truth is he didn't have a lick of furniture in his place. He only had a t.v. and floor pillows (probably had porn all over) yet he was raging that I wouldn't bring my kids over. I never did take my kids over there and I've seriously limited their contact with him since they were babies.

My mom is so afraid of him she says nothing. She thinks the only way to respond to him is to enable him or coddle him. I try so hard to have sympathy for her and how it must feel to have a son with cancer that will eventually take him let alone a son like him. But it isn't easy.

Ruining family get-togethers doesn't even begin to mention it. One year my sister had had a baby and her husband lost his job so they couldn't host the annual Christmas party for our extended family. Predictably, he didn't call to offer support or an alternate location. Instead he called to let her know that "he expected" a Christmas party. She told him, then go have one. What an ass.

Twin,

Tonight I read through a lot of your earlier posts about your brother's manipulation and exploitation of your mom, the impact on her and you and other family members. People can change and improve at any age, but at age 83 its unlikely your mom will be able to make major changes in how she views your brother and interacts with him. It's good you're doing what you can to not let the situation drive you into depression, and to maintain a good relationship with your mom, but you and your sister may need to be practical about the long-term financial as well as the emotional impact of the matter. Tough questions. Do you know your mom's financial situation?--Is there any possibility your brother could drain her financially to a point where she doesn't have enough income or resources to pay her bills, support herself, continue living independently? If so, is there a plan for dealing with that? Would you be able to support her or have her live with one of you?


As a last resort...
If your mom's financial situation is, or looks likely to become, precarious,... and it would be a hardship for you and siblings to support her, you might be able to halt the exploitation by getting your mom declared 'mentally incompetent to manage her own affairs.' You'd petition and have a hearing, a judge would decide the matter. If the petition was granted the court would appoint a trustee to oversee/manage her finances and expenditures (can be a responsible family member or a non-related individual.) No one wants to have to go that route with a parent, but it's an act of love when it's in the interest of the parent's welfare, promoting their well being and supporting as independent a lifestyle as possible. It protects the parent from her (or his)own inability to say NO to exploitative money-drainers. A lawyer can explain the process to you in a free consultation. The court bases its decision on facts and figures;income and expenditures, what's reasonable and what's unreasonable. Once it was over and done with she'd experience financial relief and be protected from your brother.

I hope you don't think I'm cold-hearted and insensitive. Experience has made me acutely practical regarding matters involving psychopaths.
It just might be prudent for you and your sister to discuss the worst-case scenario (of your mom running out of money, if thats possible), and hatch some ideas for managing matters.

______________

I have been dragged through hell and back again by three psychopaths I've been unfortunate enough to have impact on my life. My mother, my husband(now ex), and my father's second wife. (I was 32 when Dad remarried; she was never a 'step-mom' to me.) Looking back, I can now say my dad was attractive to psychopathic women; he was tall, strong, and very 'handy'; a capable man whose income and placid and trusting nature broadcast "Security."

She was a dozen years younger than him. 5' 10" tall, 240 pounds. Big and strong. She worked as a hospital nurse, (2 year certificate, not college degree) and he was impressed. But once the honeymoon was over, she pitched raging fits and cried and threatened suicide whenever he wouldn't do what she wanted. He sought counseling, she quit after they attended 4 sessions, refused to consider more. It was much easier to give in to her demands than it was to resist, so he gave in, over and over...trusting and believing that "really" she loved him, despite her frequent belittling and mistreatment of him; and of course when he gave in, she rewarded him with compliments and sweetness, (and sex.) Dumb me, at that time I felt it wasn't my place to meddle or advise him, and I also happened to be married to a psychopath who was telling me it was none of my business what my father did. So although I expressed concern and gave such emotional support as I could from the sidelines, two states away, I didn't do what I felt like doing and have regretted ever since not having done: I didn't tell him to get the hell out of that marriage and run for his life while he still had a life.

You might wonder how his second wife could have such a bad impact on me, a grown daughter living two states away. Answer: by causing the father I loved incredible mental anguish and physical pain, and then pursuing me after his death, with frivolous lawsuits because I abetted his escaping from her. First she isolated him, threatening to commit suicide if he wouldn't agree to move to a small house in a lonely rural location near a lake. He was retired and wanted to live in a place where there were more people around and places to go, but he didn't want her suicide on his conscience, believed she'd be more content if they moved there, and he could always drive the 1 hr trip back to the city to visit people. They moved. He could never invite HIS relatives for dinner, always some excuse, but her's were welcomed there. He couldn't take any trips to visit his grown daughters and their families unless she could go to, but oh gee, her work and social schedule just never had time for it. Then he got cancer, and had back surgery to relieve the pain and extend his life. He returned to their home from the hospital, and became her captive abuse victim. No one discovered it for a couple weeks, during which time she abused him verbally and physically, blocked him from receiving phone calls and beat him in the head with a glass vase when she caught him trying to call out, disallowed his using the bathroom and shower, deprived him of clothing, food, water, and withheld his medications. By the time I became suspicious and alarmed and drove there, he no longer spoke or moved or did anything she didn't command, and was nearly catatonic from the relentless abuse and pain.

(Cut to the chase, skipping over lots of miserable and frightening details) I aided his escape, got him to a hospital, he had to have a second surgery to clean up the mess she'd made of the first surgery. He charged her with criminal assault and sued for divorce. But he died a few weeks later, before her Assault case was heard in court and before his Divorce hearing....which gave his wife, LEGAL RIGHT OF DEPOSITION of his remains. She refused to order cremation or burial, just relegated his body to the funeral homes cool-storage room, where it slowly decomposed for 74 days, while I awaited the granting of my petition to define his body as part of his estate. Meanwhile she sued me, charging me with unjustly enriching myself by coercing my father into making me beneficiary of life insurance that she felt should have been hers. (She actually got a lot of money and benefits after Dad died, widows portion of his pension and health insurance for the rest of her life, his retirement savings, 4 rental houses...but she wanted everything, and to make me suffer for having helped him get away from her and supporting his reporting her assault and pursuing a divorce.

Normal people can't predict what a psychopath will do, because they are capable of unimaginable cruelty and evil.

Kate -- it is going to take me a few days to process entirely what you've written because your situation with your father and his psychopath wife sounds a lot like my situation with my mom. He hurts me through his exploitation and abuse of my mother. Anything that I've done to help him is actually to take the heat off of her.

Today, I brought my mom dinners that I had made so she wouldn't have to worry about cooking or extensive grocery shopping given the nearly 2 ft of snow on the ground. I do this pretty regularly. It isn't that hard because I make an extra serving of whatever I make for my family. I've done this for years. Today when I arrived, she had her coat and boots on ready to take HIM to the grocery store. It took me back to the first few months about 5 years ago when my husband and I decided to pay for a monthly cleaning lady for her. At that time, I excitedly called her and said, "So how was it to not have to clean toilets, scrube floors, or change sheets after all these years? She said, "I went over to Blank's house and cleaned up his apartment." I realize that this could be habit or discomfort at someone helping her after she was used to doing the helping, but this went on for about 6 months or so. I finally decided to talk to her and said, "Mom, you can do what you want, but we're not doing this so you can clean his place." I tried to talk to him and said, "Look, if she comes over to clean can you send her away and tell her to enjoy herself." (Keep in mind this was before I knew he was a psychopath so I thought that I might be able to persuade his conscience.) He glibly said to me, "It isn't my problem. As a matter of fact, I'm kind of benefiting from it." (What a sick prick!)

So much of it I've got to let go in order to keep up contact with her. Other than this (and it's huge) she's been a good mom to me and a good grandma to my kids in so many other ways. She's like your dad Kate. She's giving and generous. So to a psychopath she's easy to use and exploit.

My sister has some financial signing authority on her banking account. I've got another brother (whose wife is also completely on board with this) who also has access to her checking and saving accounts. I'm not so worried that he'd completely wipe her out financially. Instead, I know what he has done is nickle and dime her to death. I do appreciate your concern about this though and we are considering this all the time.

One of the things that complicates this is my brother's cancer. Tomorrow, his PET scan is going to be reviewed at a doctor's appointment. I know that my emotional reaction is reasonable: "I can't stand him." But I find myself fighting against the thought: "Have some sympathy. He's got cancer." Truthfully, I can't even go there. He's been such a manipulating, conning, and lying game-player that it is a real challenge to have sympathy for him. And yet, I find myself thinking that it will be over for him and maybe her when he dies. What a mess.

I think that the hard part of the mess with these psychopaths is that in my family we are all at varying degrees of understanding of him. We're all in the same book, but we're not in the same chapter let alone the same page. I've got a friend who is a newly hired hospice nurse. She says that one of the biggest let-downs for her has been to see patients who manipulate and game-play with their dying breaths. She tells me that most people die like they live. I have no doubt that my brother will fit that image.

Ugh.

Twin,

I can't reply at length right now, but wanted to let you know I read your most recent reply. GREAT that your sister and another sibling have some access to your mom's bank accounts -- affords you some control over what oozes out to your brother.

Yes, cancer obligates some sympathy, but it's no blanket-excuse for his psychopathy. If possible fix it so your mom's money doesn't pay for his treatment.
Maybe he has decent health insurance (I don't know, you haven't said) - but if not, get him into public aid programs.

I'll write more later.


Kate

Over the years he's had no real full-time jobs so he's never had health insurance. My sister and I paid a friend (who has expertise in this area) to secure disability and state sponsored medicaid. Had he gone through a lawyer he would have had to give them a 1/3 of the settlement and had he done it on his own he would never been able to complete the paperwork. So we found someone to help and he was an ass every step of the way. (eg: refusing to do what she asked in even the most simple form like completing paperwork; being rude openly; being rude by never thanking her; criticizing her in front of her co-workers, showing up to her office at night and then complaining that she was never around, etc.) She's a saint for doing this and what we paid her is was small in comparison to what a lawyer would have charged, but certainly not a small amount.

Our hope was that it would provide him with a stream of consistent income and allow him to have access to appropriate medical care which would take the heat off of our mom. Last summer he got a nearly $15,000 settlement from disability and monthly gets about $1000. We suggested (which is allowed by disability) that he use the money to pay rent and utilities ahead to give him some security. He refused because he "doesn't like people telling him what to do." No one really knows what he did with all of the money besides pay off some credit card debt and rent cars by the week.

(By the way, he sure loves to sing a sad song saying that my sister and I never help him. We help him, but we don't enable him.)

So now, his health has worsened and he's had to take a leave from his extremely part-time job. My sister-in-law took him to his doctor's appointment last week. His hemoglobin counts were down and he was very very tired. She picked him and sympathetically asked him how he was feeling. He lives alone and has a history of porn use. You know the only thing he said was... "I couldn't even get myself hard last night."

Sick.

Hi Twin,

Sick is putting it mildly. I have heard from tons of victims about their partners requests for porn and weird sex but your own brother, gives me the creepy crawlers.

I am really baffled and maybe I missed something. I can understand how the attorney got him on medicaid, that makes sense. How in the heck is he getting 1K a month and a 15K settlement from disability without a job etc? What other benefits does he get, food stamps etc. with the medicaid. Very puzzled over the disability?

So far no one has written a book on how to handle the death of a family member who is a psychopath so you are on new territory, Kubler Ross and the stages of grief would be appropriate to consider looking at so you can see what stages your mother may well go through to support her.

I really don't think there is any right or wrong way to deal with how you do or don't feel about your brother dying. The choice is really how you want to deal with it. There is a neutral position which to me means you don't have to throw yourself sobbing over his casket but simply acknowledge he is dead and turn your attention and support to your mother. I don't think dealing with it by wishing he goes to hell or that he dies quicker might cause some issues. He is dying, it is as simple as that. Once he is gone it will be important to not let him control things from his grave, he is just dead.

All the attention should go to your mother, your family is brave and loving to your mother. I am sure your mom will have grief so the Kubler Ross book might help in understanding the stages she will be going through. Your mother protected your brother with a heavy veil to not see what he was, she is probably too kind and loving to think of him as a monster. That is how mothers can be.

I think your mom is just doing what moms of her generation would be more likely to do. You deserve a lot of credit for figuring it out so you would at least have a base to operate from rather than behind a dark door.

She loves her son, that doesn't mean you have to love him and you can be neutral or whatever your choice is and what will work best for you. Your family has lifted a heavy weight all these years to attempt to care for your brother by getting him aid and medical care. He will never care, he is the typical psychopath who is the constant victim in any circumstances and now he has cancer so he has a new card in his deck for his remaining time.

I hope I am not sounding cruel or cold by suggesting a neutral position. I can't think from your writing here of anything else you could have done for your brother. Most people wouldn't be that strong to carry him as their burden as long as your family has. It has to be very emotional from all sides. My thoughts would have raced to how I could get him a one way ticket to Siberia;)

It is very sad what your mother has gone through and her reaction to his death will probably be deep sorrow, she will see it much differently.

Di

Hi Diane -

No - you don't sound cruel at all. I think that my sister-in-law, sister and I have adopted that neutral position. It is a challenge though. We're trying to support my mom through this and we will support her when he dies. We are realistic to know that the best we can hope for is that he die before our mother so we can work on undoing some of the damage and possibly rebuild our relationship with her. Realistically, we know that there is only a 50/50 chance that she outlive him and then another 50/50 chance that the damage he's done to our relationship is not permanent. We're trying to do our best to keep a good relationship with her, run interference, and support her. I still make meals for her, pay for her cleaning lady, take her to the grocery when I can, attend her doctor appts. with her, etc. My sister helps with her with meals, her health insurance, pays for her cell phone, etc. My sister-in-law does the same. What is to her advantage/disadvantage simultaneously is that she is still mentally quite sharp. By that I mean, she isn't so old and frail that she can't handle her own matters with help. But, she isn't sophisticated enough (who really is)to maintain a healthy relationship with him.

I'm not sure if he gets food stamps now or not because I don't talk to him and I hardly ever bring his situation up with my mom. He's able to get about $1000 (probably closer to $900) in disability because he has worked over the years. He's never had a full-time job. EVER. The closest he's ever worked to full-time is about 30 hours a week which was a decade or so ago. But his pattern was to do so and then get himself fired or deliberately work temporary jobs so he could collect unemployment. Quite frankly, I was surprised that he could secure that much assistance. When my friend was helping him complete the paperwork she asked him about his series of temporary/part-time jobs. His response was something like "I never liked to push myself too hard and it all worked out." (Everyone else limping him along which he never acknowledges.) BTW, the settlement was $15,000 because it went back to the date of diagnosis. He has worked part-time over the past 7 - 10 years . . . probably about 20 hours a week. My mother floated him money each month to make ends meet and paid for his car insurance.

She told me once that she wasn't giving it to him. She had him do things to "earn it." (Yeah right.) Who has their elderly mother pay them to help? A psychopath that's who.

It is unchartered territory. I have a feeling that the PET Scan results were not terminal or I would have heard about it by now. I spoke with her on the phone last night and she didn't sound depressed. So we're back at it again. My therapist and my sister-in-law's therapist says the same thing: it will probably be a relief when he dies.

Hi Twin, and Diane too,

Lots of good advice there Diane. You have a deep well of compassion for humanity.

I'm going to take one of Diane's remarks and run with it. Don't know how much there is of it that might or could be helpful, maybe some, maybe none.


> how to handle the death of a family member who is a psychopath...

I second the suggestion to read up on stages of grief; its a good idea.
To that, I add this:
Of course you shouldn't feel bad if you don't experience stages as described; heck, you've already put in years grieving because he lacks heart and conscience. But also, don't be surprised if you feel a strange sense of loss and unreality creep over you...as if you're standing inside a bubble where time has stopped and the world outside it seems separated from you or muted. Are you familiar with the "elephant in the living room' analogy? I bet so, but just in case not: When there's an elephant in your living room that won't budge,(a psychopath in your family that you can't make leave and which you can't get away from for whatever reasons)...in order to survive having to live with it, you adapt by living 'around' it. You rearrange the furniture, keep a safe distance away from it, feed it, truck away its poop, put up with its noises and figure out strategies to minimize it's disruptions. I know, that YOU know, that you've been expending loads of effort for years and years helping your mom, AND even helping your ingrate-brother, WHILE simultaneously "managing" your own strong feelings towards the situation, PLUS working and meeting other separate and unrelated challenges in your life outside your family. What I'm trying to describe is, having intellectual recognition of your psychopath's impact on your life is ONE thing; but when your emotional brain recognizes and feels total freedom from his physical existence, that's ANOTHER thing, and it can trigger some surprising sensations, new insights,thoughts, and changes.
Your mom or other relatives who maybe love him your brother the ways she does, may have a need to preserve the mental space he occupied in their minds, and do just that.


I hated my elephants. At that time I didn't know much about psychopathy, and what I thought I knew was erroneous. Still, it was enough that I recognized mine were abnormal and dangerous people. And I recognized that there had to be a REASON that I had not perceived that these two people were truly dangerous people. After establishing a safer home for me and my kids, one without any elephants, my brain seemed to recognize by itself that there was more room available in my mind for thinking. I'm a visual thinker. For a couple days I felt sort of gathering sensation in my brain and a couple days later my brain began 'playing' a "video review" of my life... to my "minds-eye",-- like a movie of images from Toddlerhood. It was amazing and a little unnerving; I could see it but it didn't interfere with my usual vision and normal activities;it was like I had a third eye in my head, just for watching that. I woke and fixed my kid's breakfasts and sent them off to school, and took phone calls, and did grocery shopping...with this little in-mind video running all the while. Real and accurate life events. But I called the counselor I'd been seeing about it anyway--you know, in case I maybe was losing my mind?-- but she said she thought it was a very healthy event that had been waiting a long time to happen, I should try not to worry about it, call her if I had trouble sleeping or other bothersome effects. So, well... I was 48 then, didn't understand what was happening but guessed it could take awhile. My earliest years played at at normal speed, slowing down here and there, pausing on certain frames (some for longer times than others), and then moving on. I didn't know why. As the review moved into my teen years it speeded up but still slowed-and-paused to inspect certain frames. Sometimes there were audible conversations in the pictures, but more often not. By the fourth day it had progressed into my 20's and my life's story was passing by quite a bit faster. The 5th day the images sped up to where they were zipping by like a VHS tape fast-forwarding between specific frames it stopped; that night I slept only fitfully. I was exhausted by the 6th evening, for by then the images were rushing past at the speed of a passenger train and stopping and moving on with equal rapidity. I called the counselor and she okayed a small dose of Valium, which slowed things down enough to allow me to sleep about 5 hours that night.
They speeded back up in the morning, but in the afternoon the movie began slowing, and slowing, and then stopped,and roved forward and back, picking out specific areas of my life-experience to re-visit.

I hadn't realized it while it was happening, but my freed-up brain had reviewed everything in order to replace the LIES and FALSE meanings attached to abuse-memories with their true and correct description: ABUSE. Irrational mistreatment, false blaming, gross neglect-- every episode. Even at a very young age I had somehow tagged them as not-quite-right, or aberrant, but overlaying that was "DESERVED" because Mom who said she loved me, always told me I deserved whatever she did to me. And when I protested that I hadn't done this or that thing, she told me I was a liar, or couldn't remember because I was so stupid. And even after I got older and then was grown up, this stuff was still active to the extent that all anyone had to do was accuse me, and I apologized for whatever they said I should. The man I married had the same abuse traits as my mother: gaslighting, denial, false accusation to create justification for abuse they "needed" to do to secure themselves. Finally I understood My Life, and it felt GOOD to be able to see the labels!

Well, this has been too long. Sorry for that. I must leave it. You KNOW what your brother is, and what you're dealing with, and as miserable as it is to recognize in some ways, it's much more enabling of smart decisions and preventive measures that scurrying or cowering or enduring etc.

I probably won't visit the site again until Sunday.

Kate:

You wrote:

You rearrange the furniture, keep a safe distance away from it, feed it, truck away its poop, put up with its noises and figure out strategies to minimize it's disruptions. I know, that YOU know, that you've been expending loads of effort for years and years helping your mom, AND even helping your ingrate-brother, WHILE simultaneously "managing" your own strong feelings towards the situation, PLUS working and meeting other separate and unrelated challenges in your life outside your family. What I'm trying to describe is, having intellectual recognition of your psychopath's impact on your life is ONE thing; but when your emotional brain recognizes and feels total freedom from his physical existence, that's ANOTHER thing, and it can trigger some surprising sensations, new insights,thoughts, and changes.

My sister said it best. If you are near HIM, you take a "hit." If you stay away too much, our mom takes a "hit" or we take "hits" trucking away the poop.

One of the most troubling parts of this is that some of my siblings really blame my mom for ALL of this. Sure, when we were kids she didn't handle all of this in the best ways. Her nature is to be non-confrontational and helpful which is a bonanza for a psychopath. But these people (these psychopaths) are nearly impossible to stand up to.

The latest is that my mom is considering having the psychopath move in with her as his cancer progresses. My sister (who is on board) spoke with another family member and asked her if mom mentions him moving in to discourage it. Our oldest sister said, "Maybe she can handle it." My sister explained that WE would end up taking care of mom and him while they all sat back, afraid to confront him or discuss it with her, and blamed the 83 y/o that she can't stand up to him.

That is where the rub is. My sister (who is on board) and my sister-in-law know how agitated he gets and how she cowers to him, The rest of our family blame her and think she is a co-conspirator. Yet, they are unwilling to say ANYTHING TO HIM or discuss it with her.

I hate it.

Wow, what a statement, how cold to think your 83 year old mother could even handle caring for anyone yet alone a psychopath.

Blaming life on your parents was the therapy of the 80's, they did the best they could considering their era. I figure my mother got her information from her mother who was raised in the early 1900's.

I don't mean to sound harsh but it sounds like your sister was behind the door when empathy was dished out.

I can't even think of leaving a cat or pet with an 83 year old person let alone a very disturbed person.

I can understand how horrific this must feel to hear these words with such lack of love, sheer respect or concern come out of their mouths. Actually it is a distant cousin to elder abuse.

Unfortunately in most or quite a few families we all can grow up quite differently. You really can't argue to get someone to understand empathy and kindness.

At some point you may need to reach the point to give up on them, they just won't get it. Nothing will make them get it, they want to blame your mother for how they were raised and in reality at some point our hearts open up more when letting go of such hateful thoughts. they aren't near that point yet and may never be. They may have to get moved into your neutral zone to protect your energy.

The core group of you may just well be better off not even getting yourself in a position to hear their ugly thougths. They won't change and to hear them say these things has to be horrily painful.

Di

Dianne -

You are right. We've got to shield ourselves from their insensitivity as well. It is an energy drain that I can't tolerate right now. I think that I'm learning to let go of a lot right now. I've got to let go of my expectations that they will be helpful in this situation because when they are not helpful I do feel let down . . . despite having this big family it is really just me, my sister, and our sister-in-law who understand this.

Hi Twin, when times get tough we soon learn what the others in our life are all about. The previous image would never have allowed these thoughts that they would behave this way.

I was quite serious about Elder Abuse, they take these kind of things very seriously and if your brother is heading in the path to live with your mother I would be looking into it. It would be like watching a speeding train and never bothering to protect the one who needs it, your mom. She may think she can handle it but I hardly think so.

It doesn't sound like your brother hides his attitude and demands and one interview would sum up your concerns. He needs to be in a care facility if that is the way it needs to be, not to push your mom into one because of the way he treats her.

There are lots of places that would take him in, the last place should be your mom.

You now know who your core group is, let go of the others and if they were to ask I am not so sure I would say much. Whatever they say is probably better for you not to hear.

Someone yapping about their childhood idicates their lack of ability to be sensitive to others, still focused on the past. In a way it is almost like a veiled deal to say, she didn't treat me so hot so why are you bothering me. Our parents did the best they could based on the circumstances, they are not some evil being set out to punish anyone. Besides how many years can a person put the blame on their parents? Empathy is in short supply with them it seems.

Di

Hi Twin,

It's too bad your mom is considering having him move in with her. If that's what your brother's pushing for, it will probably come to pass.

Is there any possibility you could engage more family members into providing Active Assistance? I mean, forget about trying to get them to confront and discuss matters with mom and brother, and instead present them with options for physically DOING more, contributing action. Just because other people have kids, busy family schedule, or demanding jobs, doesn't make it okay for them to shrug off their share of responsibility for Mom (and/or brother) onto you. If they view you as willing and able to support the 'lion's share', they'll let it happen. Do your other family members take you for granted? Have they flatly declined requests to provide assistance?

If others truly can't or won't share in providing active support, it's not unreasonable to ask them to contribute monetary support to hire some help and lighten your burden a bit...a college student to take her shopping or to get her hair done; a cleaning lady, etc. You'll have to be direct and clear with whoever you hire about what service you expect. You said you paid for cleaning services for awhile, but quit after you discovered that your mom sent them over to your brother's house. Why did the cleaning person cooperate with your mom relaying her services over to your brother? Any services YOU hire and pay for, those employees are under contract (or should be) to YOU.

As for your siblings that blame your mom: Co-conspires?!-BS. "Blame the victim" is how people excuse and justify themselves from doing nothing about abusive situations. "It's her own fault; she could prevent it if she wanted to; the way she responds to him is her choice."

From what you've described, I'd guess your mom can't recognize a choice exists really. It takes energy and stamina (in short supply at age 83) to stick up for yourself. And on top of that it's possible she can't reject any of her children without violating deeply ingrained ethical beliefs about loving one's children no matter their faults and imperfections. She's no co-conspirator of your brother's, but her age and style of love enables his victimization of her. He has the mind of a predator, he can't ignore easy prey.

That's all I have to offer at present!

Dear Kate & Dianne,

Thank you for your kind responses. I am embarrassed to say that I'm not sure that I can yet bring Adult Protective Services (Elder Abuse) into this situation yet. It might (and I mean might) protect my mom, but it would permanently and irrevocably end my relationship with her.

Dianne, when you brought it up last year when I began posting it stuck with me. The doctor and the nurse were concerned enough about her well-being that they pulled me aside to ask . . . "Who is Blank? She's always talking about him and how she has to give him money" after she talked about him taking her car and not giving it back AND THEY DIDN'T CALL ADULT PROTECTIVE SERVICES?

Why don't health care workers pick-up on this stuff? I know it doesn't remove my role but if others would pick up on it -- it would take some of the overwhelming weight on us -- the bystanders. Very weighted down right now.

Twin,

About getting help via reporting Elder Abuse, and in reply to your remark that your mom's doctor seemed concerned and why don't 'these people' do more to help (report it themselves.)

When I discovered my father's 'captive victim' situation, the first thing I did was call the Elder Abuse hotline. The bottom line there, was that they could send a person to visit him in his home (investigate my claim he was being abused), and IF my father was able to convey to them that he didn't want to live there, -- wanted to move out, was being mistreated, was frightened -- they could move him out pronto. But, if he did not express that, --if he said that he was okay or things were fine, and if there was no obvious EVIDENCE that he was being abused, the best they could do was convey their concern for his well-being and return for another visit in a week or two to again check up on him.

Every state has different laws regarding the evidence needed to legally remove a person from their home (because of abuse.) Once the abuser gains control over the victim's mind, by terrorizing the victim into believing that no escape is possible, they control what the victim says to others. Unless the victim can express to others a desire to leave, other's can't remove the victim...unless there are obvious signs of physical abuse or clear evidence of mental cruelty...witnessed by an investigator in the home. And lots of times an abuse investigator can't even get INTO the home on the first visit. After several visits have been attempted, a relative can make a charge of abuse, to the police or sheriffs office, which enables officers to demand entrance, but once inside, they face the same challenges -- will the victim state he is being mistreated, is there EVIDENCE of mistreatment...or will the victim say they are just fine (from fear of what their abuser will do to them if they don't support the abuser.) If they say they are fine, and there's no clear evidence of abuse, the officers can't do anything.

Document your evidence. Write down dates, times and descriptions of your verbal exchanges, things you see and hear. That can help.
RECORD your mother telling you about your brother's ill treatment, exploitation, misuse of her. You may need it.

By the time I discovered how rotten matters were in my fathers home, his mind was shot from her abuse. He wasn't thinking logically. He was so terrified of her, he was consumed with following her commands and doing and saying nothing that would invite more physical abuse. He was certain that it wasn't safe for him to say anything against her or about what was going on, because if he did she would KNOW and would inflict more injury and pain on him or kill him. He could not believe that anyone had the power to extract him from the nightmare.

When I was unable to talk with him on the phone, having for the umpteenth reached only his wife who gave yet another excuse for why he couldn't talk to me now...I told her I was coming to visit, tomorrow. She said it wasn't necessary, would be a waste of my time because he really wasn't in shape to visit and slept most of the time, etc etc. She tried hard to dissuade me from coming but I refused to be dissuaded, told her it didn't matter to me if he slept, I didn't expect or require entertainment, and my son wanted to see his Grandpa--had Veteran's Day off-school and could take Monday off as well--so we'd arrive there on Sat afternoon, and be leaving first thing Tues morning. We would spend part of Sun and Mon in the city (an hours drive from their home) visiting the zoo and museum, and a cousin. My Dad's wife was all about posing as if things were fine, she was taking good care of him, nothing was wrong.
When I arrived there he was lying on his back on the couch, very thin and with an ashen complexion, covered with a blanket, seemingly asleep. The only words he spoke to me that day were a slurred greeting, "Hi honey, nice to see you." He was asleep the entire evening. SHE told me it was his medications. She left him on the couch overnight, making a show of putting another blanket on and adjusting the pillow under his head so he'd be 'comfy.' The next day she wanted to go shopping, I declined to join her; it was obvious from her expression and voice that she didn't want to leave me and my son "alone" with my father. She stood in the doorway staring hard at us in a calculating way, my son was watching TV, I had begun reading a book I brought with me, Dad was asleep on the couch, she said 'Well...I won't be gone long. Just make sure you don't DISTURB him, he needs his sleep.' She left. Five minutes later my Dad asked, "Is she gone?" I said "yes" -- he said, "Go outside, make SURE her car is gone." I did and so reported. He then said, "I have to get out of here, if I stay here I'll die, she'll kill me." I was all for leaving right then and there. He said no, he couldn't hardly move, he was in too much pain to stand and walk, couldn't make it to the door or the car, couldn't endure the car ride an hour to the city...if I could find his pain pills, maybe we could leave. She had hidden them and all his medications; she hadn't given him any, until yesterday when she made him swallow something shortly before we arrived, that knocked him out soon after (hence his slurred greeting and then he was out.) He said she had taken him to see the doctor for his follow-up exam a week after his surgery (maintaining a pretense of normalcy)...and threatened him that if he said anything bad about her to the doctor or let on that anything was wrong, she would make him hurt so much that he would wish he was dead--he couldn't tell the doctor anything! She stayed with him throughout his appointment, telling the doctor he'd been a 'bad boy' about his medications and didn't want to take them, 'but SHE was a NURSE and SHE was taking GOOD CARE of him.' The doctor was concerned that there was bruising around the site of his incision, and some seepage from it, but he couldn't, didn't dare! tell the doctor that she had hit him there...the doctor wouldn't believe him, and even if he did?--so what?--what could the doctor DO?--she would deny that there was anything wrong, blame it on him somehow, say he fell down or something, and in the end the doctor would caution him to be more careful and he would be leaving in HER company under HER care, helpless to drive or get away from her.

Kate,

I'm so sorry about what your dad experienced. I know how painful it is to have a court side view of the destruction.

My mother's abuse is not physical so there would be no bruises to document, but I do look for them. If an investigator interviewed her to check on her well-being, it would produce nothing. My mom is so used to being USED she would say everything was okay. Once, my husband asked her about the stress of the situation and she responded, "(Blank) isn't a bother."

I'm headed out to run errands. Lots to think about as always. Sometimes I just wish my mind would be able to rest.

Hi Twin,

Back to your posting 2/17 about Doctors and nurses don't report the "concerns" they have about patients.

If they're suspicious of emotional abuse they do what they did with you: mention it to next of kin. When they see a patient who has obvious signs of physical abuse they'll note the injuries in the patient's medical report but they may still not alert police or social workers. Nobody wants to report trouble if trouble doesn't really exist (they are not in a position to be able to determine that with certainty, which is why they express their concerns to family); some feel it's pointless to report when the suspected victim denies the problem. The doctor who assessed and treated my father after he escaped from his wife, said Dad's condition was in his medical report, which Dad's lawyer could order copies of, but the doctor wouldn't offer personal testimony unless he was subpoenaed to give it.

Years ago when I was attempting to obtain a court order of protection to force my husband to move out, I needed witnesses willing to document/testify about abuse incidents. Among others, I asked a counselor at my daughter's school if she would document an incident that occurred in the school office with her and my daughter. She said she would give documentation only if subpoenaed, "because the school didn't want to appear to involve itself in domestic disputes." It was so hypocritical. She had phoned me at home immediately following the incident, upset and shocked, asking ..."was my husband under the care of a psychiatrist?- he needed to be!--never in her 15 years of dealing with parents had she heard a father use such foul language and behave so inappropriately with staff that they had to threaten to call the police to make him leave!" Instead of reporting him, she threatened to report ME to social services (for having an unsafe home, because he was in it.) I already was doing everything possible to get him OUT of it. Thankfully, other people were willing to come forward for us (me and the kids.)


If taking any action to protect your mom from your brother will end your good relationship with your mom,
that pretty much seals the deal, unless his emotional manipulation escalates to a point where your mom finds it intolerable.
If you haven't already spoken with Adult Protective Services it'd be a good idea to call them and find out what services they offer in your state/city, just so you know. (I don't remember if you said you'd done that and can't refer to your earlier post while in this Reply field.)


Bottom line?...You can only do, what you can do... and don't beat yourself up for what's NOT possible to do.

I wish you a nice day!