I had a breakdown trying to keep my brother safe from our dad.

My counsellor at the time was the sort of counsellor who wouldn't give you any advice at all. She left me to work it out for myself. The whole process was very difficult and it took a long time (years). But, when all this stuff with my brother was going on, she kept telling me 'you must save yourself'. She said it again and again and again...every session we had, as I slowly fell apart.

And in the end it's what I had to do, otherwise it would have destroyed me completely. Several years on and I've sill not fully recovered from trying to save my brother, but I'm making progress.

A psychopath is someone who deliberately tricks and manipulates others. They know exactly where the boundary between right and wrong is, and they choose to step over that boundary, so that they can get what they want. They feel no guilt or remorse, they see it as their entitlement to take what they want from others (and society). It's a different way of being, a totally different way of being.

It's not really anything to do with the portrayal of psychopaths that you see in films, or that you read about in fiction. So I would advise you to educate yourself as to what a psychopath really is, by reading some of the other posts on this forum and by reading some of the links.

Think of it like going into a shop. You see something in the shop that you want. You (and I) know that you either buy it and pay for the there and then, or go away and save up for it if you can't afford it. A psychopath will go in with the intention of taking it without paying for it. They'll have even more fun if they chat to the shopkeeper a bit before they steal it...strike up a 'rapport', share a few jokes. Then they take it, when they see their opportunity, and just walk out. They won't feel guilt (like you or I would). They'll be thinking 'Jesus that shopkeeper was an idiot, he really set himself up there'.

They have found a way of being in which their innermost needs are met. They don't want to change, why would they? So why would they agree to therapy or counselling? Why would they want management or support?

Back to my brother. He knew more of what my dad had done than I ever did. And my brother kept saying to me 'but I'll have strong boundaries'. Again, you can't judge these people by the parameters of your own behaviour, because they're not thinking like that. In fact, they're setting out to exploit the parameters of your own behaviour. So I knew all along that this was a flawed and fatal assumption on my brother's behalf.

With our dad any relationship is totally, utterly and entirely always on his terms. There will never be any room or space for 'the other' because in our dad's eyes 'the other' has no right to anything. 'The other' is there purely as an object, to satisfy his own needs.

I admit, I had a lot of my own prejudices to confront when trying to unravel my dad's behaviour in my regards. It wasn't sexual assault (fondling and kissing) because it was his way of showing how much he loved me. It wasn't sexual assault because I didn't scream and shout and try and run away. It wasn't sexual assault because it wasn't some strange man jumping out from behind a bush in the middle of the night. It wasn't sexual assault because that couldn't possibly happen to a nice, polite, well educated middle class girl.

And again, we're back to the way these people think. They exploit all these assumptions, and more ('how can someone I know possibly do something like that?').

So, I would advise reading up on sexual assault, particularly from the point of view of a survivor. There's some great literature on this, well researched and passionately written.

The more you educate yourself, and the more you understand, the better position you will be be in to help yourself (and your daughter).

Hello,
I havent made a decision, i just find the information or discussion based on emotion, maybe its my take but i feels like hes been judged tried and sentanced without deliberation on how to take action, just send him packing.
I could limit contact through finding him and his partner a rental house near by. I could set rules.
The ramifications of impact on others in my community is of huge consern, not how to protect my daughter, i feel that would be easy, for instance if he should plead hard done by in my community that reflects upon me, if he crosses anyone here etc.
I cant control nor wish to control another person but I can influence. We influence our children, set rules and make boundys why not our parents too? Can you teach an old dog new tricks?
I my dealing with him since my 30's i have been intolerent of his exagerations or twists of the truth, his tantrums. Just like a adult dealing with a teenager who is testing the boundrys, and i do tend to treat him more like a sibling or child at times, he complains or is critical to others about my dealings with hm a times, or points out my own failings to my brothers or aunties but not to me directly, in a way that is sarcastic, like how can i say that when im not the perfect parent.
Yet he still turned to me for support.
True, you cant protect yourself from words. This is a problem. But dont we face these issues every day?

I had a few drinks last night with friends, one bought a friend, a guy she is trying to help, an alcoholic, he went to the toilet, via the alcohol cabinet, drank most of a bottle of whisky, was a state all of a sudden, we couldnt work out what he had taken but knew it was odd, anyway my point is, if i had known i could have hidden my alcohol,, he could have been accompanied to the toilet, no we shouldnt need to treat him like this but we could have, would have saved alot of headaches, protected us all, but i was never informed and was none the wiser. Im not sure if trying to help is going to be of any help, but when its family i question if its morally wrong for me to just convict, sentance and remove myself from his life because its easier than trying.
If you have a handicap child and its going to create hardship to you for as long as they live do you turn your back and say put them in a home?

Im just finding it difficult to get an objective responce or i dont want to read whats written. Unsure
But thank you for the time and energy. I shall now take the time to try and help with anothers issues in posting a reply.

Hey again,
I have just read and reread and read again a few posts, i do apologise if i offened anyone with my objective comment, it is not correct, they are in fact 1st person responses to trauma trying to help give me guidance.
I my self have always had a fairly clear and questionig opinion of my father. I have been affected growing up, i have never suffered like most (giving me more of a 3rd person objective) as i did not understand him. I felt like as i got older i could see his manipulation and it was just imature.
Morally ive always been different, the line of what he see as right or wrong and the line i see i just always felt were in a different place, i didnt imagine there was no line in his eyes. In saying this there have been times when i have used emotion, copied some of his manipulation, and realised i was doing it, much to my own disaproval, i realised it was just a tool id developed to help me deal with some situations i didnt know how to handle, i guess i need to look more deeply within to see if i do have any of his traits, hmmm
Thank you for your posts, i would apreciate the link offered to read more info,

To the other post, well done in moving away,

just some things that i have experienced in my life that have caused me alot of pain worthy of mention here.
If you cant change something that happened,
if you cant get a result that makes it better,
dont keep reliving it,
dont play it out in your head, dont recount the story to others,
make it into something, art, music, poetry
write it down in letters, maybe burn them afterwards, rid yourself of negative thoughts,

What i am saying is if you cant change what has happened bringing it up is only going to hurt you, never them, yes you want them to feel your pain, but they wont.

OK, so looking at it 'objectively', here are the facts, as described by you:

A man has a history of sexually assaulting girls in your family, namely your sister and both your step sister's girls. So there are three survivors here who have spoken out about being assaulted by this man.

This man is now looking to spend time in your home.

Your youngest daughter lives with you. She is the pretty much the same age as the two girls he has already sexually assaulted.

So, how does it sound? Objectively, of course.




That you are are posting here, on this matter, speaks volumes about the serious doubts you are having about this man. Both about what he has done to your other family members and also what you feel he is capable of doing to your child.




The pain of having lived through something like this myself is utterly excruciating, make no mistake about it. I am not one of these people to dwell on the past, I am extremely highly educated with a very successful career and happy family life. I am not 'a victim'. I was 'a survivor' and I was a survivor from the very first touch, fondle and kiss.

And yet, I have to deal with body reminding my of the trauma I went through (in all the symptoms I posted above). Sure, I have learnt to cope with it, and I cope with it very well. Were you to be a work colleague or even a family friend, you would have absolutely no idea that this has been part of my life.

It's certainly not the most significant thing to happen in my life (I would count love, marriage, family as those), but it certainly has been the defining part of my life. The sense of betrayal is beyond description. And with those come anger, rage, grief.

Survivors, like myself, view the world very much in terms of 'my side/his side'. On my side are those people who 'get it'. They not only 'get it' intellectually, they 'get it' at a gut level, and don't try to question or minimize my feelings. On his side are people who are at worst disbelieving, and believe me I've come across plenty of those, even in the medical profession (and I include psychotherapists here - the very people who should be there to help me!). And on his side are also those that are either silent on the matter, or try to be neutral. Because the crime that was committed against me demands a stance, you cannot remain neutral. If you're neutral you're questioning me, doubting me, which puts you over to his side.

Now, the only thing worse than having it happen to myself would be having it happen to my child. If I had the merest smidgen of doubt about someone I would do everything in my power to protect my child.


Therefore, no, my the man that assaulted me does not have access to my children. Nor does he have access to me. He has a track record of sexually assaulting women, starting with his own sister, 50 odd years ago and including me. There's not a chance in hell I'd let him anywhere near my children.

That he's my dad is incidental really. He's a man who has chosen to inflict pain and degradation on another person. It's that black and white.

Hey Starry,
Objectivly would be, he is a man acused of inapropriate behaviour, grooming.
He has not been charged, but could be, he would then be trialed and if found guilty convicted.
Long story short he may be inocent of all accusations.
If not he maybe given a mild sentance, as he has not to my knowledge actually gone far enough for serious charges to stick.

It was bought to my attention a week and a half ago.
I spoke to my sister whom has had an 8 year dispute, or long term estranged relationship over money with him.
She has a reason to say he did the same to her.

However given that i try to be impartial i tend to side with the girls, perhaps because i find him hard to be near for long periods of time, and i dont like who he is. I have always felt obliged to love and care for him, but i dont like him if that makes any sence at all lol.
It hard to draw a line, and take side when you dont know the facts or are uncertain about the truth,
we face this alot in our lives.

I had a partner, she was with me just over 2 years, i gave her a engagement ring and signed half my estate over into her name, she left 8weeks later for another man and put her hand out for the cash, she knew she had fallen in love with him when i asked her to sign the deeds, i knew i was losing her so i offered it, because i didnt know why she was distant and i wanted her to love me, she paid $1 for near on $100000 asset. I would have given her every cent i had if she returned the love i felt for her, she had fallen in love with another man, nothing i could do was right.
My friends and hers were ment to choose in my opinion, her or me, she had wronged me, anyone in the right mind could see i had been manipulated, screwed over. Someone with morals would have given me back my estate or said i cant sign, we need to talk.
Most friends sat on the fence, she hadnt crossed them. I couldnt believe it, they were my friends, they cared about me, yet most would not choose, even my brother whom had become close to us both. It hurt me alot.
So why do i mention all this, neutral doesnt mean you accept, like, agree or take the side of the other, it is normal instinctive behaiviour, if we have not be harmed ourselves by someone close to us how do we judge, sentance and punish them.
Its easier for someone who doesnt know the people involved, for someone removed to choose sides.
If you want to live a healthy life you just have to let go move on and forgive or try to block it out, well its a theory anyway
Well must go
He hasnt rung, and ive not rung him, i feel bad though
Cheers
Monty

Hi Monty,

The hallmark of Psychopathy is very shallow (if any) emotions and a total lack of empathy with other people, no conscience. They are profoundly emotionally immature and lack capacity for growth.
They have no ethics; no moral compass.
They have no emotional intelligence to speak of, but they have intellectual intelligence, which they mostly use to exploit others.
Just as there is no treatment to cure or correct color blind vision,
there is no treatment or cure to correct or improve psychopathy.
They don't have enough emotional functioning to be able to "desire" to be more feeling.
They can and do intellectually memorize and learn to use words that represent feeling states.
Words that cause people to feel emotional pain are very useful.
There are lots of insensitive people in the world, but psychopaths are far worse than "insensitive"
towards others - they are devoid of feeling for humanity.

There are several good books on it. Robert Hare's publications are the most comprehensive information.


While it's true that all adults who are abusive were usually abused themselves in childhood, it is NOT true that all abused children grow up to become abusive adults. The majority of abused kids DON'T. I don't recall the exact statistics but I seem to remember it being in the neighborhood of 70% or better. I asked the counselor I was working with following my separation, about this very thing, because the nightmare of abuse that erupted in my home made me realize that I had to have been blind in some way to not recognize warning signs of serious trouble. There were ways I had behaved, things I had NOT done and NOT said, that had made our home "abuse-friendly." Before that fateful day, at times he was emotionally abusive I hushed the kids and told them to go play quietly in the next room because "Daddy had a hard day", and I soothed him and let him use me as a target. I unwittingly trained my kids to tolerate abuse, to respond to it with kindness and sympathy, ignore it's assaults on their souls, and give love, respect, and loyalty to the man who dished it out-- because he was their Father. It was wrong. Was how I behaved Abusive? Yes, in that I Neglected to keep my children (and myself) SAFE. Parents are their children's models for how to behave in adulthood. I had modeled the wrong stuff and I had to change that, and I DID, bigtime. The kids and I also worked with counselors and that helped too, although they didn't exactly enjoy it. Yes, the light bulb has to want to change. I don't fool myself into thinking I entirely reversed the curse of long-term effects of abuse, but I have done everything in my power to reduce it and soften it and if I'm lucky it will make enough difference so my daughter can avoid marrying an abusive partner and my son won't abuse his future family.

There was abuse in my childhood past that set the stage for my marriage, for me to feel that when people abused you, it meant "they really Loved You." When a parent is your childhood abuser, (mine was my mother), love and abuse get connected and smushed together in your mind because abusers don't abuse ALL the time, they also give gifts occasionally and take you to the circus and the donut shop, and say that they care about you even though they also abuse you. There's enough good along with the bad and the ugly, that you grow up having a conflicted sort of love for that parent. In adulthood you are unconsciously attracted to partners who have subtle similarities; they "feel like Home", where you were Loved. That is one of the ways abuse recycles to the next generation: A child victimized throughout childhood becomes conditioned to being a target for abuse disguised as love. She/he can't tell its disguised because of never having experienced healthier expressions of love.

Don't kick yourself for dressing up your father's abuses, everybody in a relationship with a psychopath does it until something happens where they can't anymore, and because its scary as Hell to face the fact you've got an Inhuman being in your life. Once you do that you can't avoid worrying about how to keep yourself sane and your loved ones safe from harm. There are no easy solutions.


There's some good news here.
Many adults abused in childhood are so dedicated to NOT inflicting the same misery on their kids and to being a BETTER Dad (or Mom) to their kids than their abusive parent was to them, that they often have the opposite problems of being too "soft" and permissive, and they have difficulty setting reasonable boundaries for their kids behavior. Identifying "reasonable boundaries" and figuring out how to set them is hard because it wasn't modeled in the home they grew up in. Their abusive parent didn't respect any boundaries. An loving Adult who was abused in childhood knows the 'bad stuff' he doesn't want to repeat with his kids, but he may not know what to replace it with, and may have to consciously study and learn healthy, effective ways to interact with his kids when they act up.

When I said abuse recycles from generation to generation, I meant that one abuser living in a family home has a bad impact on every other person living there, one way or another. As Dianne said, it creates Chaos. Confusion and chaos interfere with the normal development of children's minds (including teens.)

Growing up, I knew a pair of sisters whose abusive mother treated them very differently, one she lavished praise on and never punished or corrected; the other she scapegoated and blamed everything on. One she called extremely bright and clever, the other she called her stupid and dim-witted and made cruel jokes at her expense. When the praised sister verbally attacked her scapegoated sibling, their mother egged her on and laughed and rewarded her with more praise. Adults now, the sisters have no contact with one another. the praised one believes the scapegoated one deserves to be loathed; the scapegoated one can't stand to be in the praised one's company because she recycles their mothers abuse. Their mother died a few years ago, but her abuse lives on through her favored daughter.


Sure, you can take precautions to avert disaster, but your kids aren't airplanes or cars. Psychopaths are clever at exploiting opportunities to manipulate people, and kids and teens are easy targets for that. Disagreements inevitably arise between parents and their teens over all sorts of things. Teens accuse their parents of not understanding them or of being stupid and unfair, that's an opportunity for the psychopath to support the teens outburst and join her/him in criticizing you.

This is long, sorry to write so much, I won't have time to revisit for a few days.

I think my Dad is jealous of every success I have had. My husband and I have done pretty well with buying/selling real estate and, at the mere mention of one of our properties, my brother becomes enraged so I know that my Dad has been working him. I have never "put on airs" or tried to make my brother feel bad about himself. In fact, I would go out of my way to try and make him feel good about his own accomplishments. Yet it is never reciprocated. I tried to encourage his daughter to go after her dreams and my Dad twisted it into me telling her to have nothing to do with her father. Every good intention or act that I have done for my father or anyone in my family is turned into something bad - where I am resented for it.

My Dad has always put down my job - constantly telling me I don't do anything, it's not really important, etc. But he would do so in a teasing manner so I didn't realize, at the time, it was bullying. I just would always feel like I wasn't good at my job or didn't deserve it, etc. I think he absolutely would love it if I failed - if I lost my job. He had a direct line to my boss's parents and negative impressions of me were spreading to my boss as well as managers in other states. My husband and I went to my boss's parents and spoke to them. We asked them to stop having anything to do with my Dad. At first they said - "oh, he hasn't said anything". I could see that they truly believed that - yet, as we talked longer, things started coming out and I realized that they had been told a lot - all negative, of course. In any case, they have honored our request so that valve has been shut off. Hopefully, over time, the negative impressions that were transmitted will dissipate.

My husband believes that, since my Mom died, my Dad has wanted me to fail at everything so that he can have me to do his every whim.

I didn't go to my Dad and tell him I knew what he does/what he is - but I did try to tell my brother and sister. So, of course, he has upped the venom to the point where they have nothing to do with me. I am sure that my part of the inheritance will be going to them even though I took care of Dad the last 10 years and they lived their own lives, visiting him maybe once a year. My inheritance has been used as a leverage point before so I am pretty sure that Dad has taken or will take steps to remove me from that. As he is 90 years old, has macular degeneration, and is not mobile, it is about the only thing he has left to hurt me with. He still calls about every 3 months and leaves mean messages on my cell phone. It is weird, because just hearing his voice, I start to doubt and again think "it was me". However, when I start thinking clearly and go through all that has happened, I get "back on track" and continue moving forward. It is very wearing and I just want it all to stop.

We are trying to sell some properties so we can move. The market seems to be coming back a little so, hopefully, we'll be able to move sometime this year. My Dad lives in a retirement home about an hour from us. My brother lives about 4 hours away and is planning to move my Dad in with him within the next few months. I can't wait until we are not even in the same state as my Dad.

Bringing your Dad into your home would be a mistake, I think. As I said in a previous post, even when I just hear my Dad's voice in a message on my cell phone, the doubts/shame/guilt returns. I believe he knows what he does but has been doing it for so long, he doesn't know any other way. Nor, do I think, he feels he needs to change. It has worked for him for years so, why change? He doesn't think there is anything wrong with him. I suspect your Dad is the same way. I agree that it is naive to think you can handle it. The web of lies, deceit, manipulation, control, etc is so strong and pervasive, there is no way to stand against it on all fronts. Even if your Dad didn't do any physical damage to your girls, the emotional and mental damage is devastating. You don't even realize it is happening. Please don't expose your girls or yourself to that. I read somewhere that often the targets of these people end up with heart problems. My mother died of heart disease. I have just been diagnosed with mitral valve prolapse. It is an insidious evil. The best way to protect yourself, and your girls, is to maintain some space from your Dad. You need to be able to think clearly.

Just my opinion.

Hi Monty, I admire you in making a well thought out approach before making any decisions about your dad moving in. I hope hearing from other survivors who had walked in your shoes helps in coming to a conclusion that you feel is best for you and your daughter.

When you mentioned not really being able to be around him, maybe you might consider making a list of ways that it will impact you and your daughter being with him, his wife and young child full time. How will you handle the chaos, lies, pitting everyone against each other? If you don't have solutions to all his already known actions then you might consider it in a fresh light. Once a P latches onto a good deal all bets are off.

Just as a suggestion for your pros and cons:

Pro (why he should move in: (this will probably be the hardest one to fill in.)

Con: my daughter will more likely than not be hurt
You can't possibly monitor him 24/7.
How will you deal with him yourself on a full time basis
It is likely that once in your home he will never leave.
He will never accept any boundaries
What happens if he gets ill, does that mean he stays in your life forever?
If he passes away do you then have the responsibility of his wife and child?

He evidently burned your sister quite badly, if you are comfortable what did your sister say he did to her, evidently it must have caused a wedge to not have spoken to her in so long. A healthy relationship with your sister sounds like a better deal all the way around for you and your daughter. Others here have been sharing their experiences, maybe explore some techniques that worked for them to remove their P dad. Normally the only recommended plan is no contact under any circumstances.

I think it is wonderful that you contacted your sister, perhaps spending more time exploring what her experience was like. Ask your sister what she would do if she were in your shoes. It is really a turning point decision that could impact you and your daughters entire life course.

Di

Hi Sinkler,

I would have to agree your dad is jealous on our terms in his world it probably takes a more hateful meaning. Spreading lies, anger that he doesn't have or figured out a way to steal it for himself.

They don't have it in them to acknowledge someone, even their own family of doing well the hard way with working and acheiving without scheming and lying.

Just out of curiousity did your dad ask you for money or was there a specific trigger that got him off and running with the lies?

That took a lot of courage and I admire you and your husband for letting your boss and his wife see things more clearly.

Di