Hi Sinkler,

At your father's instigation, you bought his house from him at fair market value. Your father profited.
Then he went off and squandered the sale proceeds.

When he returned and needed a place to live you took out a Home Equity line-of-credit/loan to buy him a mobile home. Your father profited.
He paid monthly rent which almost-but-not-quite covered your monthly loan payments.

You invested money and labor into upgrading and improving the house you'd bought from him, thereby increasing it's value.
Your father and brother contributed nothing but criticism to your efforts.

You had to move for work. Your improvements increased the house's value, it fetched a higher sale price, enabling you to pay off your father's mobile home. Your father profited.

He should have expressed gratitude and appreciation for your kind and generous support; instead he used your deceased mother to press your Guilty buttons with, and spread lies around to villify you and your husband.

He's a Big Meany.
Looks to me like a psychopath ticked off because his Cash Cow and favorite target for criticism moved out of convenient target range.

Your father is exploiting the fact that you care about what others think of you. He's using your own emotions against you.
I don't know how he's able to use your deceased mother to trigger you to feel bad...how can you put any stock into what he says about that?
I mean, if you believe that she hears what he tells her now, well then she hears you too, and sees all from where she is, and knows what a liar he is.
His accusation "you're leaving your Father" is just a manipulation tactic; think about it -- it wasn't emotionally wrenching for him to sell you his house and go live on the opposite coast.

I won't tell you to not feel bad about the lies he's told everyone. I've had that happen and know how crappy it feels. Happens after you've "moved away" and aren't likely to discover it for awhile, aren't "around" to get wind of it and defend yourself. If anyone you care about is buying his lies, well.... the best way to kill lies and expose the liar is to counter the lies with irrefutable evidence of fact.

It might be worth your time and trouble to photocopy a couple documents to send to them:
1) your bill of sale for the house (or whatever Proof you have on file that you purchased his house from him)
2) your title/purchase deed, of the mobile home
Send them with a brief note saying something like: "It's come to our attention that Dad has told various people we cheated him. It pains me to imagine you'd think that of me, so I'm sending these just to clear up any misperceptions you may have. We paid Dad for the house, and after he squandered the money we paid him for the house we bought him the mobile home he lives in now. We don't know how he spent the house money. He reimbursed us $ XXXX [list total amt of monthly rent he paid for the one year] towards our expense for his mobile home. We made so many improvements and upgrades to the house that we were able to sell it for more than we paid him for it, and we applied the additional proceeds to pay off his mobile home.

If you do something like that, don't tell your father. He doesn't need advance notice and opportunity to attempt more lies to cover his first lies. (for example, He might tell them you forged documents to send to them.)

You don't deserve to feel guilty. You paid him the going market value for his house. He blew the money. That's his fault, not yours.

Monty,
I want to make two comments on these remarks you made:

"So given that he is one, will always be, does that make him evil, or just unhealthy to be around, intolerable to a degree.
I think it would be nicer to think he is mentally unevolved, child like, dangerous no doubt, but i suppose it depends on your ability to see the risks and block them."


Do you really think it's possible to block all the risks?... because no one, no matter how highly motivated, can control everything in life.

Accidents happen, emergencies of various sorts occur, and unpredictable circumstance arise: you have to work late; one of your daughters gets sick with the flu and goes home from school early. If you had an accident, injury, or severe illness that necessitated hospitalization there would be no one at home with the strength or authority to "block" him. Same thing, if you had to suddenly take one of your children, or a neighbor, to a clinic. Your father's wife is no protector...she was around when your father inappropriately-touched your step sisters, was she not?
Any time you'd leave your children at home with him is a risk.

Does being a psychopath make him evil or just unhealthy to be around.
Try to imagine yourself in the shoes of your step-sisters, imagine it was a teenager YOU that he felt-up and touched inappropriately.


Food for Thought...

Mentally un-evolved?...yes, but Psychopaths are not "child like"...they are emotionally infantile...babies, but unlike babies they are harnessed to ADULT intellects and bodies. A baby's tantrum is a noisy nuisance, but he doesn't have enough physical power to hurt anybody, he can't break furniture and windows, can't physically assault others and so on, he doesn't have the intellectual power or ability to trick and deceive others.
The psychopath is a baby who HAS those powers.

I came across a comparison in a book one time, that I thought aptly described the difficulty of living with a psychopath.
It said a psychopath could be likened to a military tank commanded by a baby.
Think of the tank as a powerful adult body and intellect.
The commander sitting inside the tank is the baby, who "deploys" the tank to either outwit, wound, or destroy, whoever gets in the way of what the baby wants.

Hi Sinkler, your father will always be the victim, Kate is wise in telling you to put together the documents. For no other purpose it will put this thing to rest by doing a spreadsheet to follow the trail based on all the dealings. Was he paying fair market value in rent? Did he skip out on any rent payments or ask for any additional money that you can account for? Was the title to the trailer in his name?

I am guessing that if it is all collected and analysed you will proably find out he was the one who benefited. I feel like so what, someone else could have bought the house and fixed it up and benefited financially, that is how things work, just because that person was you is a crazy argument of his. Beyond the direct funds to fix the house up, I would think your "sweat equity" had a value also. I would imagine that if you hadn't paid off the trailer you and your husband would have had that money to pay a higher deposit down to lower your mortgage payments.

If you haven't already I think putting all the figures, dates etc. on a spreadsheet will give you the clear idea that I suspect he benefitied not you.

You have done nothing wrong. Hold you head up high and know that these are the facts of the situation. Even if you don't show this information that is compiled to anyone else it may put these false accusations to rest in your mind.

Do you really think your brother will follow through and take him in?

Di

Hi Kate,
No it is impossible to block every risk, that is life though.

I agree with your comments, my comment on childlike is derived from my dads behaiour not his looks:) his undeveloped maturity, as you said emotion, he can pretend to be caring and upset, yet his actions show a different attitude from his words.
My mother died of cancer, in her final months i would go cook, share time and sit with her, or lay on her bed with her, talk, reminess, comfort, massage her back. I would say why doesnt dad do this for you, with you, while he would watch tv. She just said matter of fact, he wont. She didnt seem that upset by this, she had accepted it, he is the way he is would be something that comes to mind that she may have said. I think alot of the time she was able to handle him, manage him to a degree.

When my mum died, he proclaimed was the best husband the world had ever seen, well this is an exageration on my behalf, but he was proud of himself, so many years of marrage, not many people are like me and your mum. He convince everyone, and himself, boasted how great they were, moaned how much he missed her, how we didnt visit or ring enough, that his life was now hollow and empty without her making people feel sorry for him.
My attitued was if you were so great you could have showed that to mum when she were alive and eased her pain with a back rub, it irritated the heck out of me, what an ass he actually was.

He isnt a pedophile, he is a uses emotion to manipulate even though he actually doesnt seem to feel these emotions. Love is an emotion, touching is part of a loving bond.
I can imagine myself in the shoes of my step sisters, i was conserned about them living as we all did, grew up with him as our role model, i think i am ok, i am me, not a replication of him. They are nice girls, they are damaged but not broken, they have survived, would have survived, they may have issues now that they wouldnt have from living with someone like him but they are physically healthy, capable of moving forward mentally, perhaps stifled but sound.
I believe he has been pushing the boundrys in this area trying to make them love him, if that love is there there is a bond, a power over them, control. I can see if the person being groomed fell in love, wanted to have a sexual relationship i think he would, to maintain power or control, not out of love.
He did manipulate me, or try, as a adolesant i rebeled at 15, i loathed him, he lost his control, he lost my respect, but i grew to manage him, to accept him, see through his sentances, pick fractions of truth and reality from his conversations. It wasnt that hard or dangerious, just irritating. He did affect my life alot, even when i was independant, i see that or saw it, but as i grew i stengthend my defences, i became the role model and him the child.

Id like to think i help protect my daughter every day, i talk to her, about her friends, people in the community, their behaviour, how to cope with situations, about boys, about life. She may not fully understand what i am saying but i am giving her another prospective and opening her mind to a different level of maturity, she grows as she sees things and she matures. I dont and cant always be there to protect her, she will go out into the world on her own without me, but if i over protect her, if she is never exposed to any danger doesnt that make her more vulnerable. My job is to teach her how to survive, cope, try 2 be happy and be there for her when things go wrong, help put her back together when a boy breaks her heart. Im gratful to be able to share the good stuff too, it the bonus that comes from the responciblity.

My dad would try and manipulate her, but knowledge or understanding helps manage to protect.
Baby in a tank is a good comparison, and funny. Hes not that strong. Im not saying he wouldnt affect her, living in the same community as anyone affects you. He wouldnt live in the same house, i would find him a house close by.
Do i want too take him in?, no, do i think the risk is warranted, not really, maybe, perhaps, there are others to consider, not just him to think of. His new wife, step daughters and baby. His impact on my life, my daughters, my sibblings, and the wider community. His impact would be hard, it would affect me both negatively and positively, more so negatively, but i feel i have the tools myself to cope, if i had to. Yes i have a choice, im working through options, you are a tool for working through this process, i am grateful to you for your thoughts and help.

Hi Monty, what does your sister think about the help you would give him to move closer to you? Will that destroy any chance of a relationship with her? If so then it is also denying your daughter the ability to have relatives she can know and spend holidays with and learn how families operate together on a functional level.

I am not clear why you have been out of contact over a money issue she has with your father?

Sinkler brings up a very important aspect of when a Psychopath in the family has access to those people you know. Unfortunately the behind the back stories and lies that catch people off guard can be quite harmful.

If your home and lifestyle which you well deserve becomes one of his targets things can get uncertain how he tells this to others and the picture he paints about you. There is never enough, if your house is bigger etc. than his, he will be the victim, the fact you are paying for his house won't make a difference in what lies he might spread.

Just out of curiosity is there a particular reason the house you will be providing him will be in your community?

Di

Hi Di,
My sister would feel sorry for me but not bitter toward me.
She and dad as i said had their own falling out about 8 years ago, she was his little girl until then.
Mum had passed and she offered to care his business and of financials for him, I had refused to get involved as i did not want to have any finacial deals with my father, i made excuses, but the truth was id been burned by him before.
Her intent
Doing what was best to support a man nearing retirement, use his business to procure a profit to give him a moderate income to support himself.
She was hurting after the loss of her mum, this made her vulnerable, she wasnt thinking straight, she was also angry at me for not being willing to do what she had to do, as i was more qualified.

He was aparently devistated with the loss of his wife and couldnt bear to run his own business, he couldnt give it to his daughter or any of his sons, he was however living in a freehold house and could have gone on a widows allowance.
He could not bear to be in the house, he needed to travel the world to get over the loss, he couldnt work for a living either, she was to support him, she had promised she would while in a weak moment grieving the loss of mum.

He spent more than she could cover with profit, the business was failing,his outgoings caused an negative affect on the business, and because they were new at the industry, had a different approach etc it was going downhill fast.
As far as he was concerned she needed to run it better, he could make a profit so could she, she continued to support him, mortgaging her own house, Diversified, changed the dynamics of what he had left her in charge of, he just kept taking until she was at almost breakdown point, she was confused, struggle to understand him, then realised he was a selfish man, but it was still a bit cloudy, she had been blinded by her own love for him, daddys little girl.

With the help of lawyers, friends, accountants she capped a value on the business to buy him out to destress the situation, a business she never wanted but now she felt it was so altered and burdened with debit that she needed to get him out, out forever, his tantrums, his agression, he was at time embarresing to her.
The value she came up with was in truth far beyond her own capabilities of paying him and in my opinion more than the business was even worth let alone what she had already given him over the past 24 mths or so.

My sister never let on to her father the strain he was causing her, her marrage, her own sanity, she didnt wish to burden him with it but she was comming to the end of her patience.

She was facing potential bankrupcy, and was unable to pay him his payments, she told him she would have to stop paying him until she could turn things around, he said that was fine, 2 weeks later he went in to see if she had any money for him, she said she didnt.
3 weeks or so after that he rang her, it was his grandsons birthday, she presumed he had rung to wish him happy birthday, he asked for money, she under a huge strain, boiled over, told him he was not her father any more she had had enough of his overwhelming selfishness.
She wrote to him, told him to .... off basicly.

He keeps this letter in a nice safe place, to prove how hurt he is.

They havent properly spoken since and shes happy to continue that way. He believes she still owe's him, tells everyone she does.
She ended up selling her home as debit was still to high, he wanted his money from the sale, luckily he didnt get it.

She still doesnt have her own home, but she is still married, and still running the business, she made it a success.
I was always proud of her, if not for the extereme he put her through she may never have had the determination to suceed, the change of life style, she went from unemployed to success, she was slightly lost in life before all of this.

I agree with my sister whole heartedly over the issues she had.

He still continues to embelish his own story, have seen him 3 times in 5 years each time we have had heated arguments when he trys to tell me how he misses her, then moves onto how she has never paid him what she owes him, its always the same, its like he believes his own version far removed from reality.

The reason he wishes to move in with me is i have a tourist complex, with 24 rooms, house restaurant etc. Good pickings lol.
I wouldnt cost me anything to give him a room or 2 until he got out from under my feet, but i still dont want him here. As far as paying for him to go elsewhere i cant, but my brothers can have him!!!

Well that was a novel

Hi everyone, I am a newbie here.
I am 40 (male). I have recently began to be convinced that my father has ASPD. I guess it doesn't really matter if he is clinically or not. I am not a psychologist and I am not qualified to say that he is or is not. The term is a label but the label might help to understand why he behaves in the way he does.

I had a violent childhood, my father beat me and my brothers repeatedly and with extreme agression. He would sometimes wake us up for these beatings, and sometimes he used a studded belt. Other times he would repeatedly punch us in the face. As far as I can tell, this began very young. My earliest memory is him throwing a shoe at my brother and I, he was frustrated we could not tie our laces. I was 4, my brother was 3. My youngest brother was so badly beaten, he was off school for 2 weeks, his face was so swollen, you could barely see the tip of his nose. He was 8.

After the age of 16, the beatings tailed off, I always figured he thought I might fight back. Even so, I was terrified of him and remained so until very recently. Phonecalls/e-mails and visits with him were terrifying, I would always try to curry favour and get in his good books. Despite this, he rarely had a good word to say about me or my achievements. They mostly met with disdain. As I now live an 8 hour drive from him and spend a lot of time abroad, it became easier to have less contact with him. He would often have some feud or other running with one of my brothers or his brother/sister. Only recently, my youngest brother and I realised that he has been playing various family members off agaaist each other in a complex web of deceipt. We discovered that some of our own fallings out were engineered by him. As encounters with him led me to extreme anxiety and loss of sleep, I eventually decided to terminate my relationship with him. I put it off for years because I felt I had a duty to my Dad to keep some kind of relationship going. But walking away was the best thing I ever did. I feel free, its a huge burden removed.

As for the APSD, the two things that really brought this home to me were two conversations I had with him, spread over a couple of years. The first was when I bought a dog, he advised me that having a dog was much like a kid, beatings were necessary and in both cases one had to have them under heel by 3 years old. The second conversation was about marital problems I was having in my first marriage. I told him things were not good in the bedroom department, she was not interested. My father said, I should just force her into it. Both conversations shocked me to the core.Partly becasue of the content of his suggestions but also because he thought it was perfectly OK to speak in this way.

As I began to study psychology as part of doctoral research I am doing, I began to hear more about the lack of remorse or guilt associated with APSD. I became incresingly curious about it. He is certainly the kind of guy, people pick out straight away, there is smoething about him, something dangerous. If I bumped into him as a stranger, I am sure I would give him a wide berth.

I know it is impossible to diagnose without a proper DSM diagnosis, so I am not asking for that. At the end of the day, what he dis was wrong, regardless. I am pretty sure I am in the right place to find out more about it though.

Hi APOGS!

What motivated you to rise above your nightmare childhood? According to many statistics on abused children, you would have been justified in becoming an abuser or career criminal after such cruel treatment from your dad. Yet, you have chosen to climb not only the ladder of success, but the mountain of moral integrity and compassion. Good for you!!!

As a 58 year-old woman, I have only recently come to accept the truth about my dad. He is a self-serving, unkind, manipulating, controller who also creates chaos among family members and then sits back and gloats over his ability to cause division and distress! Regardless of what label is assigned to people who are intentionally cruel, they are depraved beings who will NEVER change!! It is imperative to disconnect from such people and have NO CONTACT with them!

This is not being unkind...it is being wise and prudent. Such wisdom is vital in protecting your heart, mind, and soul. You are on the right path to truly saving your life! I wish you peace and strength on your journey of discovering great truths and applying those truths to your life.


Hugs to you,
Mouton

Hi guys, thanks for your very kind words. I think fear is just as potent as physical violence, so I don't think my experience is worse or better than others. Living with these kinds of people is hellish. Fear was the biggest factor throughout my childhood and still be biggest problem when I was dealing with him. I think you are right that disconnecting is the only solution. My emotions towards my father ranged from cringing fear to overwhelming hostility and when I was younger I often fantasised about revenge. Fortunately, I grew up!

My brother has been diagnosed with complex PTSD as a result and is getting help. I think he may well sever his connection. My other brother seems to be emulating my dad in many ways, which is a worry.

Hi Monty, well he may not cost you much in food costs but in areas you will never imagine, like running off your employees.....

I smiled when I was reading your post, it sounds like you have taken him off the list of future visitors?

Are you in contact with your brother/s. I am very happy to read the pride when you speak of your sister, she really took it in the chops but great for her to make gold from ashes. The stress of the business had to be bad enough....to keep her sanity and her family together is quite a feat.

You mentioned your "dad" was too distraught over the death of your mum, I don't think a Psychopath can be distraught over anyone outside of themselves, it was probably a handy way to dump things to his kids to handle while he traveled around.

How far away does your brother who may take him in live? I assume this brother is by now convinced what rats you and your sister are and he will be the hero.

Pity him,

D