I have a sinking feeling that my daughter has some exploitative traits. I say also because I am very sure my ex husband is really psychopathic. It's hard to tell. I should start with my husband's behavior. I hope someone can help shed some light. I am confused and alone. I am the only one (therapists, psychiatrists notwithstanding) that sees this quality in him and I feel "crazy."



I assume I should start with this story. My husband and I have been divorced for 15 years but have had a 20 year relationship. During this time he has followed a pattern of leaving and coming back, say 2 years at home and 1 year away. During the time he is at home he is usually depressed, but not sad depressed, more immobilized. During this time he would be terribly sweet. Then abruptly he would leave very abruptly (overnight) after a change in behavior where he became emotionally abusive, would become more hyper active, I thought hypomanic, he would also steal from me (different tricks) mainly with my bank accounts. His explanations as to why he was leaving also made no sense. It was my fault we didn't get along. This specially as the marriage went on made little sense because we would get along fairly well during his "depressed" period.



During the year he was out of the house he would not talk to me, we had no idea where he was living. He would usually make a lot of money during those cycles. However, when he came back in his "depressed" phase, he would be almost unable to make a living so he had to more or less be supported (during the depressed phase). I thought he was a manic depressive. No one else did because during the entire two cycles he looked socially unruffled, was able to be charming he had an unshakable, calm facade. Something not typical of bipolars or manic depressives. I was at a loss.



But since I explained his behavior as mental illness, I forgave everything and took him back. Also and foremost I was terribly addicted to him. I saw the nice him as the real him. His leaving was devastating. It felt like a punch in the stomach I would obseess about him and do anything to have him come back. I feel ashamed of myself now.



In the fact that leaving was so devastating to me, he had found the botton he had to press to get whatever he wanted. Threaten to leave and I would be crumpled on the floor willing to give up any point, position, reasonable requirement just to have him stay.



Now to add the Psychopath features to this system. Substance abuse. The first time this cycle happened almost 15 years ago, it was the result of finding that he was a binge cocaine user. He stole quite a bit from my escrow account (I was a lawyer at the time). We got him treatment. The treatment professionals who I now believe are kind of psychopathic themselves convinced me this was behavior that would clear up when he was sober (Lying cheating stealing).



I don't think I could have left him then, I was so sick I had to be hospitalized and put on medication. I was almost out of my mind. I felt in a daze most of the time for almost a year. Our daughter was three at the time.



The other features is this bland cool facade. He is really charming. He seems not to have a fully formed conscience. He seems unable to care what happens to you during at least the high phase. I am beginning to think the rest of his behavior, being caring when he was depressed was really a facade. He is unwilling not only to accept responsibility for misbehavior, he doesn't think he is deserving of any punishment, or consequences and will get irate if you mention anything he does wrong. If you try to talk out with him any difficulties, this is criticism in his book and he switches to blaming you for whatever difficulty you had.



I feel I am not being very clear, but frankly the whole thing is so confusing this is the best I can do.



My daughter who is now 18 has started exhibiting these weird behaviors. She has temper tantrums and threatens to leave the house unless I give her certain things, money, a laptop, etc. Then she will apologize and go into this sweetness thing. The threatening to leave, and always leaving, is the same trick the father pulled. By now I am ready to face what was most frightening to me before, being alone. It's preferable to this hell.



The thing that to me is most jarring is how unsympathetic they are. No empathy. They will get angry if I am upset or crying. I feel I have woken up but to a nightmare. Knowing that these people have some unchangeable traits that turn them into these cold.



I was raised in a culture where family bonds were unbreakable, where your family trust in terms of money was unbreakable. What was mine was my mother's and vice versa. This arrangement is shocking.



For the moment this man is however sending me money which I need. He has refused to say when he will stop. I guess it is a control issue. I guess he will stop when she leaves, or at least I am pretty sure he will since it is impossible to enforce back child support at this point, which is what his contributions amount to. Sending the money and the obvious affection he has for this daughter, would tend to say he is not completely cold. Just cold towards me.



He also seems to be big on this narcissitic supply thing. He used to go to an AA group in a very poor neighborhood where he was a kind of "god."



I still think there is something wrong with his mood stability, but can a person have a psychiatric problem and also be a Psychopath. Bipolars are not necessarily callous, although when they get hypomanic they do get self involved, etc.



I don't know what I'm dealing with. I say dealing because although he is gone (one month) I still am trying to unravel 20 years of being in this situation.



I don't know how I could have been so foolish. But psychopathy, which I've considere on and off for a while now, was too horrible to contemplate.



BTW he is completely non violent and he doesn't stalk. He runs and returns stealthily. Seduces his way back in which hasn't been difficult before due to my terrible addiction.



Thank you all. I know this is a long post. I am not distraught but very sad that my life is now so empty, that I thought I had a family and what I have is a nest of predators.



Where can I get help in term of support groups. I will not go to twelve step groups because of the fear I have that AA is full of predators, and Al-Anon tells you at least here in my town, to stay with them.

Hi Dusty :-)

I only have a minute right now but I wanted to address something in your post.

>>Where can I get help in term of support groups. I will not go to twelve step groups because of the fear I have that AA is full of predators, and Al-Anon tells you at least here in my town, to stay with them.<<

A true AA and Al-Anon program tells us that we are NEVER to give advice. Everyone has their own story and limits. Who is able to tell someone else whether to "go or stay". Only the person who is living in their own skin can decide what is best for them.

Al-Anon has some VERY good literature. A few that I use faithfully are: One day at a time in Al-Anon, Courage to Change and a new one called Hope for Today. It is all conference approved literature. Another one that I constantly refer to is Al=anon Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions.

I'm going to copy the August 8 reading out of the One Day at a Time book.

We hear it said that Al-Anon members do not give each other advice. This refers specifically to the kind of advice that suggests taking drastic action to bring about a radical change in a marriage relationship. This we do not -must not do.

In other ways, we in Al-Anon give a great deal of advice. We suggest looking into ourselves for the causes of our problems; we advise dependence on God's guidence. We recommend lots of Al-Anon reading, the study of the Twelve Steps and the slogans. We suggest spiritual ways to find a new perspective and new strength, and share our personal experience in applying them.

Todays Reminder

When I am greatly troubled by an insoluble problem, I will gladly accept the advice of my fellow members that I conscentrate on a slogan or a Step in finding a solution. I know that constructive action can be taken only after I have lifted my thoughts and emotions out of their confused state.

Using the slogans and the Twelve Steps will strengthen me to make wise decisions.

I personally have had to use the Twelve Step program to overcome my addiction to P. So far, that and attending Domestic Violence Intervention Service womens groups have helped me grow and heal. I'm not the same person I was when I stumbled in here last October. I've had to work REALLY hard on myself. I made "myself" a project :-)

Stay with it Dusty. If the group there "tells" you too do anything or gives you advice on your personal life. . . let them know. . .that is not in line with the Al-Anon program OR AA either.

With love,
finished

Finished:

thanku sincerely for all your replies.....

this particular one today though..is not me.....i think u meant another writer.

I had an email from P..actually 2..........I was brave..perhaps stupid......i told him to get lost and that he was a "sociopath" and to never call...drive by or email me again........

i am done..finished with all this worthless crap......

funny, it hurt to be 'that' mean.....i was told by friends to say "F.O."......i couldnt do it..........if he writes again...i will say it.

i am happy again with my wonderful family...and all our troubles.........its better than what i had before.....


check this out:

http://www.911-strike.com/index.htm.......another new P site.

Thanks again Finished....u r so very thoughtful.

>>funny, it hurt to be 'that' mean.....i was told by friends to say "F.O."......i couldnt do it..........if he writes again...i will say it.<<

When I counseled with DVIS (domestic violence intervention services) they also told me to quit being SO nice. But. . .gratefully. . .they understood that it goes crosswise with my nature and reassured me that I would handle it wisely in my own way.

I contine to be courteous and polite with P. It is not to my best interest to tell him to F/O. If you have read the threads on getting even, you will see that the only way to win is to learn all you can as fast as you can plus get yourself financially secure. There is no getting even except to make a new good life for yourself and your family.

>> am done..finished with all this worthless crap...... <<

GOOD!!! That's the first step out of the pit. . .WANTING to be out!

P free. . .that's us :-)
finished

This post was actually for Algaringo!

Thanks Dusty for showing me that!

So Algaring. . .the post addressed to Dusty is for you!

love :-)
finished

Thank you for your reply. However, I do think that the whole philosophical concept of Al-Anon, whether or not individual members give advice, is to teach the wives of alcoholics to live with the alcoholic without having his disorder ruin her life. This program was started in the 50's when women at least in the United States did not have the option to leave a husband who at least provided financial support.

In my experience with Al-Anon a large number of women opted to stay in completely miserable situations. Very little was said about how to break an abusive relationship, or how to "sober up" from your addiction to a man.

When my P first had a major cocaine episode I was advised by the recovering alcoholic counselors, members of AA, in his 28 day program that stealing from family members was usual with cocaine addicts and that I should not prosecute him for a grandtheft. I have lived to regret following their advice. They do give advice, whatever the AA theory may be.

I also do not believe it does any good for a woman who is battered either emotionally or physically to look within herself for the cause of her problems. That's precisely what the abuser wants her to believe. Whatever one's problems, however intolerable a woman's behavior, abuse is never deserved. AFter all a man is always free to leave you if he does not like or love you, but abuse is downright immoral. We have medicalized so many misbehaviors that we are drowning in empathy for people who do reprehensible things. So I have no patience for looking within yourself for the cause of your predicament while you are in it. Look outside yourself for the cause of the abusive behavior. The fault lies with him.

I understand that women who become involved in abusive relationships are going to have to face issues about their past, perhaps we are vulnerable to abuse because its all too familiar, because we have a history of some type of abuse in our families of origin. But as far as I am concerned it's soon enough to start examining yourself after you are no longer somebody's emotional or physical punching bag. WE need to concentrate our efforts in taking care of ourselves and getting the help we need to get out. I am unconditionally on the side of the abused person.

I'm sorry to say that I thoroughly dislike Al-Anon and will never go to any such meeting. I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but I have to say that I regret ever encountering this group. I do not think they are familiar with anything other than addictive disorders. I don't think they have any information about dual diagnosis, or P's or character disorders, or any of the miriad of conditions that are co-morbid with addiction. (For years on end I listened to stories of men staying sober and eventually developing or recovering functional personalities.) Therefore, the abused spouse does not have the information she needs to make decisions about her life.

Note that your quote from One Day at A Time states that you should never give advice to anyone to leave a marriage relationship. I don't know how that could apply to a woman who is being beaten who needs help and support to get out of her house (if not her marriage) before her husband maims her.

Wife abuse is not prevalent in all cultures. For example in one of the islands of the Caribbean, I believe Cuba, spousal abuse is virtually unheard of. This is because spousal abuse is seen as unmasculine and low, the wife is free to return to her family of origin's home at any time if she is being abused, women are indoctrinated to leave their husband at the first slap, fathers and brothers physically beat up the husband who beats up the wife. Now talk about interference with the marriage relationship. Plenty, but it puts these women in a third world country in a position we do not have here. They are rarely abused.

I think very different attitudes account for the abuse of American women. Part of the difficulty stems from a general reluctance to interfere with the marriage relationship. Also, I do not believe we are free to return to our parent's home once married and adult. We do not have the benefit of the extended family. To me it is not surprising that American women are victimized by battering. We are generally alone with our abusive spouses.

Please forgive me for spouting off. I do appreciate your time and effort in answering. I do not criticize you for attending Al-Anon meetings. But in view of your post, I thought I would explain my views on this organization.

I myself have not been a victim of physical violence. But if physical violence is anything like emotional violence, of which I've gotten plenty, I think I understand why it is so difficult to escape abuse. I only hope all of us in this board have seen the last of it, that this is our last abusive relationship, the one we are recovering from.

Algaringo

Hi Algaringo, welcome to the forum. I hope you are getting the answers you are seeking.

Do think it is possible that your daugher has a conscience or is she just "mirrowing" what she sees with her father?

Di

>>I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but I have to say that I regret ever encountering this group. I do not think they are familiar with anything other than addictive disorders<<

Algaringo. . .you certainly did not hurt my feelings. I share what is working for me. I have been fortunate in the fact that where I live, there are wonderful program people. I've never heard them advise any woman to stay in an abusive relationship. When a woman of her childen are in danger they always encourage that person to get to a safe place for herself and her children. Many times when a woman comes into Al-Anon she is so battered and emotionally abused she is incapble of making ANY decesion. Many women are to scared to leave. Even DVIS allows for that but gently encourages women to have a safety plan while getting the courage to leave.

>>I myself have not been a victim of physical violence. But if physical violence is anything like emotional violence, of which I've gotten plenty, I think I understand why it is so difficult to escape abuse. I only hope all of us in this board have seen the last of it, that this is our last abusive relationship, the one we are recovering from<<

I have lived through all kinds of abuse including physical, emotional, psychological and sexual abuse. Decade of it. I am only now learning that I don't deserve it or did anything to provoke it. I'm grateful to all the help and support that I have gotten from the many resourses I've been directed to, including this forum. Without these I would have absolutly no hope for the future. I'm so grateful it is never to late to learn.

Grateful. That is me. These days I'm even grateful for my experiences. Without them I wouldn't be the person I am today.

I share from my heart, not to sound like I have all the answers but that perhaps my story will help someone in a similar situation find something that will help in their recovery.

As I read through the various posts, I just take what I like and leave the rest. It is only my own experience that I share and I respect your thoughts and veiws as well.

With much love,
finished

I do think she is doing some mirroring of her father's behavior. I think she has some difficulty with empathy, particularly when angry. I think the previous post is more connected with me. I am in fear that this situation with this man will recur with my daughter.

I worry because he "won out" in this situation-left instead of being left, I have become in her eyes what not to be, compassionate sincere, honest.

I, too am beginning to wander if these are such great qualities when they expose you to predators. What do you think-are we too compassionate?

Algaringo

Hi algaringo, since I have had this forum for many years, one of the obeservation I have seen is that the victims of Psychopaths tend to be some of the kindest people you will encounter.