Thanks for the responses I've had, they really help!

A friend had read things about psychopathic behaviour and suggested I look into it after hearing about my boyfriend and so I read some articles and all the symptoms seemed to fit. At first I thought I was just being dramatic and he was just a cheat but the more I think about the kind of lies hge told and who he told them to I think it must be something more. The only thig that confuses me is that several people say he changed when the babies died. People who had no reason to say that and have not been trying to protect him have told me that- even though they admit it doesn't excuse his behaviour.

I did read in one article that Ps have to be constanttly reminded about right and wrong because they can't 'feel' guilt or remorse. My boyfriend used to be a devout Christian and when the children died he stopped going to church. I wondered if the church could have kept from lying etc in the past by reminding him constantly about morals etc?

After all the things I know about my boyfriend there is NO way I want him back. Part of me could see myself getting sucked in if I let hime explain himself so I don't want to even see him. I know a lot of people on here have talked about closure and I am worried about not knowing if he ever cared in anyway etc. I've spoken to his family who seem happy to answer question which helps a little.

Before I found out about Dev's cheating and lies I'd finished with him to give him space to deal with his 'depression.' At first he said it was for the best because he only caused me heartache and I was a good person who didn't deserve his problems and he was sorry for hurting me. That sounds like some form of remorse?! He eventually begged me to take him back but when everything came out he didn't try and talk me into beleiving him he just apologised to me for everything he'd done. He didn't seem to really understand what he'd done but he knew he'd hurt me and kept saying I was good person. He decided to try and stay with Maria who was the girl who'd given him a lot of money and thought she was moving in with him. She told me she was weak and thought she could help him and they could work things out.

I was shocked when I found he'd been with a 16 year old girl when he was married- to me that is sick! I was also outraged he'd hit a girl. He'd managed to keep all this from me- Maria did know these things about him before she found out he was cheating. I am worried about Maria staying with him. She seems nice but she's had a difficult life and she's only 21 and I think he uses that. I don't feel I can say anything though because he'll just paint me as the mad ex who wants him back! (although Maria says he only ever praised me when he told her about me as if I was an ex- saying I was lovely and beautiful, unlike the other ex's who he criticised a lot)

I'm also worried about being able to trust again. I'm 25 and I want to settle down but I don't want to get hurt like this again. I'm concerned Ps seem to know who they can manipulate.

Hi Lizzie, from what I have read here it does seem that Psychopaths go after nice and kind people as their targets.

Thank your lucky stars your friend pointed you in a direction to understand who you are dealing with. Sounds like he is getting plenty of money from his new target.

Most people talk about when a Psychopath drops their "mask", perhaps that is what happened when people noticed a big change in him. They can usually only hide the evil for so long. We all want to remember the good times but with a Psychopath there will only be pain and heartache. Feel lucky you didn't lose all your money.

If I were you once you get this resolved in your own mind I would consider cutting off any communication about him unless it is a very trusted friend.

I can imagine it must be very difficult to think about trusting again but perhaps after this experience your radar will be sharper?

You ask if

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I am worried about not knowing if he ever cared in anyway etc. I've spoken to his family who seem happy to answer question which helps a little.

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Psychopaths are not capable of caring like "normal" people, they are leeches on society. His family could very well be in deep denial about what and who he really is so I am not convinced that information from any of them is worth much and could cause you more confusion, particularly if they are painting a rosy picture of him. Having a Psychopath in the family is a very tough thing for families to come to terms with.

When you think about him, keep in mind this guy has hit a girl, no excuse for that. If he hits one, he will hit another, just my opinion. I think that is the general thinking about any abuser.

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I wondered if the church could have kept from lying etc in the past by reminding him constantly about morals etc?

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I think "fixing" a Psychopath is impossible no matter how much church they attend, it goes against current thinking. Either a person is a Psychopath or they aren't. There is a thread here about Psychopaths and Therapy which is considered to make them worse.

Di

Hi Lizzie,

It does indeed sound like this guy is quite probably a P.

I agree with Diane completely about cutting off any communication about this guy, especially if it is with ANYONE who still talks to him. If you are still engaging in any sort of communication with Maria, I would advise that you end it. It is indeed upsetting that he is using her, and it is admirable of you to be concerned about her. However, I think the BEST way to help her is by example. Show her how to cut him out of her life completely by doing it yourself. Show her how to draw boundaries against people like him, even if it means that she will also be outside of those boundaries with you. I think that will help her the most in the long run ~ if someday she would choose to get away as well.


In the meanwhile, consider EVERYONE who still allows him in their life to be a conduit for him, especially his family. If they have not cut him off, they are too toxic for you to be in contact with. They will continue to spread his poison to you (whether knowingly or unknowingly)....

Example: "(although Maria says he only ever praised me when he told her about me as if I was an ex- saying I was lovely and beautiful, unlike the other ex's who he criticised a lot)". This little nugget of information was given to you to create doubt in your head about him (tho I doubt Maria realized it). He deliberately constructed it that way. He knew you might talk to her and he was VERY particular about what he said to her about you. The comment is designed to keep the door to you open, after all ~ how can you cut a guy out of your life who says such nice things about you? You must be a great feed, Lizzie, cuz he sure doesn't want to lose you completely.

As far as the "devout Christian" thing goes (I am laughing here) I think the childrens' death gave him the excuse to quit having to do the 'church thing'. Playing the goody-goody in church probably became exhausting and it was the perfect 'out' for him ~~ and no one could possibly fault him for quitting. A perfect pity card play.

Diane wrote: "I would even be suspicious that those were indeed his childrens graves, did they have his last name on them?"

An excellent question, and tho it seems that they were actually his ~~ I will take it one step further and ask if his children died under suspicious circumstances of ANY kind? Could he have a played a part in their deaths? If so, the denial in his family would be intensely strong and they would be great people to stay as far away from as possible.

P's are capable of creating huge quagmires of denial. I have seen this with my ex's family. They will defend him to the utmost and though I have cut them out of my life, it is still quite a phenomenon to witness. Whether he had a part in his children's death or not, I am with Diane here ~~this denial of what he is VERY unhealthy for you.


My advice would be to get out of Dodge, wipe the dust from your feet and don't look back. The sooner you can do this, the sooner you can heal from this experience. After the healing is truly complete, you will be able to trust again. Give yourself time, be patient and don't rush it....it will happen.

Regards,
Deb

Hi Deb, thanks for your validation on the childrens graves, I didn't want people to think I had odd thoughts. I have always been a true crime reader, which is a good thing because that is what got me interested in Psychopaths to start the forum years ago.

Somehow the graves are on my radar, don't know why but it would be a perfect Psychopath trick. I would imagine with some work the death certificates could be found. Just out of curiosity to affirm what a loser this guy is. Heck, he isn't even smart enough to not leave those phone #'s on the bill.

One of my other suspicious thoughts is the x wife (or x gf) being in an institution. She must have had some previous serious problems to need to be in an institution after the babies deaths (or so he says). I don't know how hard it is to be put away in an institution in the UK. Lizzie, has he mentioned ever visiting her there?

I think Deb has given you some great advise about how the information chain would flow back to him. To me, it would show him that you still care and there is still a chance for him to be in your life.

Di

I thought about this when I was out with my doggie. Here in the US it is possible to access death certificates (they are public records), not sure where because I have never tried. But it is a trick that cons use, they look up deaths that fit their age criteria then use that name to get credit and a new identity.

Di

Thanks Di and Deb,

In response to some of your questions- Dev's children were still born. His ex wife had a really bad pregnancy because of a weak cervix she had a sutre stitch and was laid up for about 12 weeks. Unfortunately the stitch became infected about 2 weeks before the babies could be delivered and had to be removed. The placenta became detatched and the babies both died. Six hours after they were told the babies had both died his ex wife's labour was induced and she had to give birth knowing they had died. Dev had to organise the funeral on his own because his ex was not up to it and was on so many sedatives she can't remember the day. His ex wife's family were not very helpful and tried to shake her out of the daze she went into and Dev became her full time carer. She was sectioned as she became more detatched from reality. Dev has talked about visiting her and looking after her when she was let out for weekends as she recovered. At some point during this time he started an affair which led to the break down of the marriage.

I am sure all this is true. It must have been awful but as his cousin has said to me he now uses all this as an excuse for his bad behaviour. Dev's family have not really defended him. His cousin says he wants little or nothing to do with him and thinks he's like a different person. His Mum has said I should have no more contact with him and ignore him if he tries to call or text me.

I do agree I am best to stop talking about Dev and having too much contact with his family. My slight concern is that where we live he knows a lot of people and I am scared of meeting people who know him and what he did to me. We shared a lot of the same interests and so a lot of the places I go and things I do will include people who know him. I can't leave the area because of my job but I feel like I am living in his shadow!!

Thanks for all your support.

Liz

Today, as I sit here at home, paralyzed and exhausted... still...again...I decided to try and look for solutions because this situation really feels hopeless as it has for years now. I've allowed my health to become seriously bad both mental and physical...everything in my life has been negativly impacted...

About 8 years ago...I was out to save the world. I really believed I was doing something good and could see no harm. I met a young man, 15 years old, that was homeless. He was very small for his age and used it to his advantage for survival. He'd stand on the street crying and tell people he'd lost his bus money and couldn't get home and people gave him large amounts of money...he fed his younger brother and sister and fed his own need for alchoal and drugs. About a year after I met him he "trusted" me enough he let me speak to his 80 year old grandmother who shared with me he was born on drugs methamphetamines and crack and heroin and alchol and pot. He was a "Failure to thrive" child...homeless for the majority of his life...nothing in his life had ever been healthy or good.

Once I had made contact with his grandmother He allowed me to speak with his mother one night becasue he came to my home...yes my home where my children lived...with what appeared to be strep throat or tonsilitis. I explained he was very ill...she had antibiotics for him (I have no idea where she got them or for what or who) so he left my house and met up with her then came back to my house for recuperation. I only had verbal permission from her for him to be at my home. In the years time I had known him I knew to call the police or child protective services would do no good becasue he alwasys escaped from them in one way or another as did his mother. Evenutally he just ended up staying with my family and the longer he stayed the evidence that this was a good thing just flurished...he grew taller...stopped getting throat infections...started to fill out...went to school on occassion...normal apperaring sibbling rivalry with my son 4 years older and my daughter 1 year younger left me unconcerned that this was unhealthy.

When my daughter turned 18 HE started turning his charm on her. She resisited for a while and they kept this attraction secret from me (single mother, workaholic, way too absorbed in other things to pay true attention to what was going on in my own home). But slowly I started realizing that HE no longer spent any time talking to me...often showed signs of anger towards me...criticisim became a constant...my daughter started becoming very rebelious...by the time I really started seeing what was going on they were very involved and a side of him I had never seen before had taken hold of my household.

Everything I have read, now, about psychopaths...well he hits every warning sign with numerous red flags.

Starting 4 years ago HE established that for my daughter to be HIS she had to abandon any and all family and friends. ISOLATION. HE started to convince my daughter that although she had graduated from school with a 4.0 that she was incompetent, she dropped out of college because in fights HE would prowl the parking lot while calling her and telling her he was going to start going through the buildings until he found her POWER...she was at fault for all their problems...MIND CONTROL. They would fight, often in public, he never hit her but he would trap her in corners, cars, roooms and call her filthy names...tell her she made him do crazy things DOMESTIC VIOLENCE. HE zeroed in on me and my son once everyone else was out of "her" picture. My son finally washed his heartbroken self out of our lives.

She would leave HIM and go back to HIM then leave HIM...this insanity crept into my job, her job, where we live (our neighbors) We moved...I got laid off my job...she had to change jobs. We'd get a restraining order then she'd secretly start seeing him then he'd get drunk (he uses every street drug he can find as well as alcohol)and come to my home to let me know he was F_ _ _ ing my daughter again and call me names like C_ _t, whore...the police would come and arrested him several times and although I would press charges nothing substantial ever happened to him and often the police would not let me press charges saying the problem was between my daughter and HIM even tho it was happening in my home...sometimes they would simply drive him away from the house and drop him off with a stern warning.

On July 22 last year he got drunk and into a fight on the street that got him arrested. After an exhausting trial and bankrupting my daughter he's been sent to prison for 4 years.

During the trial she handled contact with his lawyer, a letter writing campaign with street buddies to establish that he pal-ed around with a diverse ethnic group of people establsihing that the fight he got into was not racially motiviated. The prosecuter described him as a neandrethal searching for blacks to destroy. The letters were all written by my daughter but each one was signed by his street friends and were effective enough to have the racisim charge dropped. (that would have sent him away for a good 11 years. She bought him beautiful clothes from Macys for the trial. She bailed him out of jail twice (they raised his bail after the first time she bailed him out and he had to go back in ?). She paid for him to get expensive tools and a BMW and a van so he could work (construction) while he was out because he makes such good money and he'd be able to pay her back...he of course didn't. She has his power of attorney and is attempting to "handle" his bill collecters...the IRS...oh my goodness it goes on and on.

In this time HE completly convinced her that if she loved him she would have to choose between him and me. He saddled her with a pitbull puppy (that he abused) that she can't bear to get rid of her heart is so kind. He left her with hefty bills for storage and repairing his vehicles so that he will have them in 4 years.

When I lost my job and health insurance I became very ill. All the stresses of loosing my family...of loosing the career of my dreams and the stress from HIS threats have left me with serious health problems...I cashed in my retirement, my 401k...now I live on Social Security and need to have a roommate in order to keep a roof over my head. My daughter has come back to live with me because she can't afford to live on her own either...but I know this is temporary.

I just found a way to get into counseling and have a team of doctors that know my situation and knew me before the "crash". I am trying desperatly to get on my feet again so I can go back to work...We've been trying to rebuild and I want to be there for her because I truly believe he will one day kill her, me , us... I don't know how to be involved with my daughter now. I certainly can't talk about HIM to her. I don't want to loose her. She is has heard him call me filthy names, threaten to kill me just as he has done to her...yet she dismisses it saying HE's just talking, HE'd never do anything like he threatens.
HE writes to her everyday...and HE managed to call her from prison last night (it wasn't collect, I learned today there are ways prisoners can manipulate the phone system with outside help???????).

I realize my daughter's an adult and I am way to involved in this...I don't know how not to be and don't know how to be...I live 24 hours a day with this fear. Rational thought tells me I am allowing him to control me...I've never known such heartache and fear. I've never put all this down before to anyone either. I pray that by reading your posts I can find soulution and strength to know what might help.

Hi onesinglebubble, welcome to the forum. I have to be short we are in the middle of the monsoon season here in Arizona, yuk.

I am very sad to hear about your situation. It sounds like hell on earth.

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HE writes to her everyday...and HE managed to call her from prison last night (it wasn't collect, I learned today there are ways prisoners can manipulate the phone system with outside help???????).

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Did you answer the phone when he called? Call me suspicious but perhaps your daughter accepted a collect call which I know for a fact are extremely expensive, the last thing you need. I probably watch too many true crime shows but I saw one recently and the latest thing is the inmates smuggle in cell phones.

It must be sad for your son to disconnect. Do you know when he gets out of prison? Prisoners are very good about writing all the time, afterall they have little else to do, that is how they can keep their victims in their grips, by saying what they want to hear and how they will change. It is all rubbish.

I know that many times police are hesitant to get involved in domestic disputes because quite often the abused person will turn on the police.

What is your relationship like now that he is in prison? It may sound harsh but staying connected with your own daughter who I am sure you love dearly will keep him in your life and in danger.

If he comes up for parole is there any way to send a representative to speak with the parole board. I am not sure the right person is you because that would put you in his "target" range once again. In many areas there are agencys that provide free legal help, the name of them escapes me right now. I think it is legal aid? It sounds like you would qualify for some help to understand your rights. For example, would it be legal to hide cameras in the house to get on tape what his actions are?

It must be tough because unless your daughter seeks therapy on her own, no one can really be forced to get help, how can you handle him getting out of prison? I assume he is in for 4 years which unless he acts up the time generally will be cut in 1/2 due to overcrowding etc.

I would be very concerned also if a suspected Psychopath is threating to kill a person, he doesn't sound like a highly socialized one who would be better at weighing the results of his actions. Kind of like dealing with a loose cannon.

If he uses meth, that is a topic I am quite interested in, people who are normal can become psychotic and commit terrible acts that they normally wouldn't do. I would suspect a Psychopath on meth would be a mixture of terrible things. I have been fiddling around setting up a forum about meth since it is epidemic and the general public seems to be unaware of the magnitude of the problem. www.meth-research.com. Keep in mind I am only beginning to get information gathered up and the forum is not "officially open" but there is some pretty good information about the effects on the brain etc.

I will be back later, thunder now, I have some other new members to respond to and apologize for this delay but don't want to burn up my PC so need to rush off.

One thought that always pops into my mind in situations like this is I wonder if the victims also suffer from Stockholm syndrome. Obviously I have no concrete information just a hunch.

Di

Liz,

I hope you are doing well. I am a bit perplexed about a comment you made in your previous post:

"My slight concern is that where we live he knows a lot of people and I am scared of meeting people who know him and what he did to me. We shared a lot of the same interests and so a lot of the places I go and things I do will include people who know him."

Why would you have ANY concern at all about this? Is it shame or embarrassment that you feel? If so, you have to realize that you have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to be ashamed or embarrassed about. You are a good-hearted person who was taken advantage of. The End. No shame or embarrassment there. No need to feel awkward.

If you had been hit by a truck (which in a sense you have) would you feel awkward around people who were familiar with that truck or the street on which it hit you? I doubt it.

Those people would be thinking, "Wow, there's Liz ~~ she was hit by a truck, you know. Most people would have died from the injuries that she suffered, but not Liz ~~ she's a fighter, all right."

If ANY of the people that you come in contact with are thinking anything other than that ~~ then honey, they are just ignorant idiots and their opinion means nothing. The End.

P's are soooo adept at projecting their faults and flaws onto others. It is HIM who should feel concerned about facing these people you have in common. HE is the one with something to be ashamed about. HE should be digging a hole in the ground to hide in so he won't have to feel awkward when he sees them.

As survivors of relationships with P's, we end up with A LOT of baggage that simply is not ours. The P's refusal to take responsibility or be accountable makes this happen. We pick up ALL the responsibility and claim it as ours. This creates a skewed perspective of reality which we need to re-balance when we leave the relationship.

This concern you feel is HIS, Liz. Not yours. You have no need to own this worry ~~ let it go. The shadow will disappear when you own everything that is yours and NOTHING that is his.

Best wishes,
Deb