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#4971 - 10/14/05 11:58 AM Do P's know they are P's and are projecting?
Anonymous
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Post deleted by Nell


Edited by Dianne E. (10/22/05 10:28 AM)

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#4972 - 10/15/05 05:38 AM Re: Do P's know they are P's and are projecting?
JustAMan Offline
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Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
In reply to:

I'm curious if these people know what they are and what they are doing.



Generally, no, and no they dont. The inability to empathise and lack of conscience precludes any awareness of the effect they are having on others. All they see are the outward behaviours, they cant 'feel' the inner suffering of others.

They do know when they are lieing, because they get a buzz out of it - thats part of the manipulation and control game that they get off on.

Ps don't introspect much and dont seem to have a high level of 'self awareness'. Sometimes they will admit to what they are when under enforced psychiatric care. Normally they try to avoid therapy like the plague. The P usually has an 'inflated sense of self worth' - thinks he or she is perfect, godlike,and tends to look down on others, who are regarded as 'marks' 'sheep' 'targets' 'gullible' 'stupid'

In reply to:

Do they know when they project they are talking about themselves?



I dont think so. Its an unconscious psychological process. Non-P people do it too, sometimes.

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#4973 - 10/22/05 09:29 AM Re: Do P's know they are P's and are projecting? *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: JustAMan]
jade222gem Offline
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Registered: 10/22/05
Posts: 7
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#4974 - 10/22/05 10:34 AM Re: Do P's know they are P's and are projecting? [Re: jade222gem]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2789
Loc: United States
Hi Jade, welcome to the forum. I am very sorry you are in this terrible situation.

I have a couple of questions:

Can you describe this breakdown your son is having?

Do you think in your heart of hearts he is playing you by saying he will see a Psychiatrist?

There is a thread here about therapy and the effects. It is pretty well concluded that therapy can make them worse. If you haven't come across it, I'll go look for it.

What was he like before he turned 13? Do you think he was possibly showing signs but being a good parent you could possibly have been overlooking some of the symptoms?

Di

I found the link, I think it is the only one, I'll look more when I return in the next hour or so.
Click this link below:

Therapy and the effects

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#4975 - 10/23/05 08:57 AM Re: Do P's know they are P's and are projecting? *DELETED* [Re: jade222gem]
jade222gem Offline
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Registered: 10/22/05
Posts: 7
Post deleted by jade222gem

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#4976 - 10/23/05 11:38 AM Re: Do P's know they are P's and are projecting? [Re: jade222gem]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi jade222gem

I would be so interested in hearing about your experiences with P signs from infancy. I understand that puberty puberty does exacerbate the situation but have you got any experience of the birth of a sibling or parents new relationship also being a trigger factor?

I'm eager to hear any info you have.

Regards
Jan

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#4977 - 10/23/05 11:53 AM Re: Do P's know they are P's and are projecting? [Re: jade222gem]
Shelley Offline
member

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 21
Jade,
This is my first post and I hope that it is coherent. This is a bit long and rambling, but you asked about breakdowns and all I can tell you is about my experience with my brother -- I'm not sure how helpful this will be, but here goes:

My brother had several breakdowns when he was in his early 30s, and it seemed that when he did so, he came to me. Sometimes he just showed up at my door, but a couple of times he called me (collect, of course!) in the middle of the night from several hundred miles away and threatened to kill himself.

Of course, at that time, I was not aware of who and what he was. My heart simply broke for him and so I would spend a great deal of energy and time trying to rally police, doctors, and hospitals to help him.

The second-last time my brother called me, I spoke with his psychiatrist who would not break confidentiality about my brother's on-going treatment (this is undoubtedly one of the most frustrating things about dealing with the mental health problems of family members). After a great deal of begging and pleading, the psychiatrist finally agreed to admit my brother to hospital, but told me that my brother had been caught lying and stealing from the nurses and other patients at the hospital in the past and it wouldn't be tolerated.

The good doctor also said, "Let me give you some advice: You don't need to worry about protecting your brother. He’ll always take care of himself first. Instead, you need to do everything you can to protect yourself and your family from him."

Of course, I didn't understand this advice at all.

The last time my brother had a breakdown (at least, it was the last time he called me), he was around 35 years old and he showed up at my door. He looked horrible and told me some very sad stories about his time in a psychiatric institution. I knew only that he was being treated for an eating disorder -- I thought that this was all that was wrong with him. He was very sad, and told me how horrible his life had been and how very much he wanted a new start. I thought we were on the verge of a breakthrough.

I fed him and cared for him for a couple of days and I contacted his psychiatrist (in another city a few hundred miles away) who finally agreed to re-admit my brother for treatment. I bought my brother a train ticket (afraid that if I gave him money for the train, he'd spend it elsewhere) and I physically put him on the train. My brother cried and hugged me and told me how much he appreciated the help. I thought that his life was finally on the right track.

Of course, when I returned home from the train station, I found that my wallet was nearly empty, my coin dish had disappeared, and some treasured jewellery items were missing. I spoke to the psychiatrist (briefly) several days later. My brother never showed up.

That was around 1981. Several years later when my brother died, I found copies of a psych assessment from yet another psychiatric institution among his personal papers: NPD with anti-social features. They might have had a tighter diagnosis if they’d have talked to family members.

My understanding is that psychopaths often burn out in mid-life and I’m quite sure that my brother was well on his way to a burn-out by the time he died. He did an awful lot of damage on the way through though.

At some level, I think he knew that this wasn't the life he wanted, but impulse control issues make it very difficult to engage in the kind of planning and effort it takes to pull things together. Grandiosity isn't always a recipe for success.

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#4978 - 10/23/05 01:51 PM Re: Do P's know they are P's and are projecting? [Re: Shelley]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2789
Loc: United States
Hi All, I have a thought/question. Does anyone really think a Psychopath has a "breakdown" or is that what they claim it is to worm their way back into a persons sympathy?

I can see how someone with a mental illness would have a breakdown but with a Psychopath which isn't a mental illness it makes a big question in my mind.

Di

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#4979 - 10/23/05 03:10 PM Re: Do P's know they are P's and are projecting? [Re: Dianne E.]
panamint Offline
member

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 51
Hi Di,
Since psychopaths lack conscience and are unable to empathize with others, "breakdowns," in my opinion, are a form of manipulation. As you put it, a way to "worm their way back".
I noticed this behavior in X after I issued the no contact rule. On the surface it appeared he was falling apart. This was an attempt on his part to initiate contact. Once he realized I wasn't falling for the charade, the theatrics mutated into behavior designed to intimidate me. He wanted to "break" me. It boiled down to a battle of wills.

Panamint

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#4980 - 10/23/05 04:06 PM Re: Do P's know they are P's and are projecting? [Re: panamint]
Shelley Offline
member

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 21
Hi Diane,

I believe that psychopaths can have a breakdown -- anyone can. I suspect that a breakdown is basically an inability to cope when your sense of yourself and the world around you is challenged at a fundamental level. (Imagine the grandiose psychopath feeling deeply sorry for himself when things don't go his way.) Empathy for others probably isn't required for a personal breakdown.

Do they use it for sympathy and manipulation? My guess is that once they realize the effect it has on others, they're more than willing to use it to their advantage -- which helps bring their world back into focus. By this I mean that others' response (reaching out, helping) makes the world make sense again -- they really ARE deserving, entitled, etc. They're pretty adept at making others feel sorry for them.

Having said that, I'd say that an emotional 'breakdown' is an old ploy and Panamint has nicely pointed out that it is sometimes nothing more than a very effective form of manipulation.

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