I have a 22 year old son who is undiagnosed, and has done his best his whole life to make ours miserable. I kid you not. From the time he was born there was something different about him, a breast fed baby who would simply not attach emotionally. I was a young mom so I suspect that didn't help much either, but looking back, I don't think I could really make much of a difference had I had him today with all the wisdom of parenthood behind me.

By the age of seven I knew there was something really wrong. I had to keep his two siblings so close to me to avoid them getting hurt somehow, or in trouble. I caught him abusing my neighbors cat by putting a stick in it's female part. He looked for dogs on chains so he could stand just outside of where they could reach and beat them with whatever he had available. Our dogs would never go anywhere near him. My two younger children were kind of 'brainwahsed' by him. I really can't explain it, but it took them years to heal after he was gone away.

There were so many things in this kids background, I could write a book. It was constant trouble...not day to day, but hour to hour, and I don't exagerate when I say that. By the time he was 10 I was absolutely exhausted, and completely dissappointed and feeling like I was the worst parent in the world. I felt so guilty because I felt so emotionally drained by him and all that happened around him. And they I felt even more guilty because I didn't have the time or the energy left to be able to give the younger ones the attention they needed from a parent. I felt frazzled and angry all the time, and began to resent him.

I always feared for my own children and the neighborhood children. I caught my son doing so many things, that I dare not speak of. And then as he got older I heard of many more things he had done to others when I couldn't protect them...like at school and such. Then one day when he was 12 someone finally charged him with a sexual assault charge. I was hoping he'd learned his lesson, I know we sure did, it emptied our bank account going through the courts.
Although we knew he was guilty, he sure wasn't going to admit to any guilt. Neither did he the 7 or so other times he was charged with the same type of offenses during the next 2 years. He spent time in detention and afterwards became a ward of the state because I knew at that point that I had to protect my younger children from him.

His whole life, to this day is bent around shock value, trying to do anything he can to get a reaction from us, and the general public. For the last five years he is a homeless transient, getting thrown out of shelters and homes of people he manages to coerce into letting him move in until they too realize he is a psychopath. He has never been able to keep a friend. He is a prostitute who hangs out in illegal bathhouses and services men to obtain drugs and money. He is an addict. He leads a very filthy life and used to show up at our home in states of psychosis. We no longer allow him to come to our home. I cannot get a legal restraining order on him because he has no adress. He continues to call our home almost every night in the MIDDLE of the night.

We are now moving to get away from him, but we are well aware that he will direct his honecalls and attention getting tactics to our aging parents and toehr family members. Most of our family have put him on 'ignore mode' for the last few years. They can't take it anymore either and he has burned his bridges with his grandparents and aunts and uncles. Does it ever end? You all wouldn't believe the thoughts I have regarding this kid now. He pulls suicide threats constantly. A month ago he almost pulled it off and was ressessitated. I was actually sorry they saved him...and then the guilt of that thought made me feel ill.

I feel so badly for every one here who has to live with one of these kinds of people in thier lives. It is definitely not easy, and it is extremely hard on the mental health if the fanilies dealing with them. I know, I am in the front lines of this war, resenting every minute of it

Hello Hadenuff,
It is like reading my own story. My son is 27,almost 28 and I can almost repeat your post as mine word by word. Even the ages things happened are the same.
My son also talks about suicide all the time and tries to look depressed.I know better now but am waiting for something to happen. To be honest; I am waiting for his death. Maybe it will be suicide, or he will be morderd for meeting the wrong person and mess with him. He could also OD..well..We'll see won't we...
I wish you strenght and al lot of patience.....
Segaya

The only time I have seen a Psychopath commit suicide from shows is by accident when they are driving their wife off a cliff and make a mistake in not getting out soon enough.

Di

Hi All,

I totally agree with Dianne; from what I have read and observed psychopaths do not tend to commit suicide. I read somewhere that that is how they get distinguished from the Anti-Social personality disorder. Anti-socials are capable of commiting a suicide; psychopaths are not.

Hi,
Maybe I sound cold and heartless now...But does it really matter how they die...
I don't know if he will or will not kill himself.
Psychopaths are also wel known for all the accidents they have....that is also a possibility and who knows maybe he will reach age 80?
It is just a feeling I have for such a long time now. I didn't hear or see him for quit a while and still wait... There is nothing we can do is there?
The only thing I know is my life seems so mcuh easier now and I am free of a lot of emotions concerning him...Is this what a mother wants to feel? Of cours not but in the given circumstances it is the best that can happen.
Segaya

Segaya I can totally relate with you, unfortunately for both of us. I used to think my sone could never commit suicide, he is way too high on himself and thinks he is here to heal the nation or something. My son's suicide attemps have always been mostly talk, and really silly suicide attemps....like swallowing a whole bottle of herbal sleep aid right in the aisle of the drugstore where he would definitely get caught and brought to the hospital. But then he started with very heavy drug use and it drives him to different levels
The drowning incident I am not sure how it really played out, but obviously there was someone nearby to save him, I think he scared himself with that one:>) I can really see him getting in the wrong persons face and having the inevetiable happen though, and like you, Segaya, I have often thought that the nest time I see him will be in a body bag. What a strange way indeed for a mother to liver her life. I do, however have other children who I am very proud of and happy with their accdomplishments. The best and most favorate part of them is that they possess hearts:>)

Generally speaking here people who threaten suicide aren't typically the ones to do it and it is only a call for attention. Those that don't threaten are more likely to go through with it.

Di

You are right. Those who are in the depth of depression don't really speak much about anything. I think drug induced suicides are a whole different beat though. And yes, there are those who use it as a tool to get back into peoples lives and homes. That is the type I am used to:>)

He indeed tries to get my attention indeed I agree..But I don't agree that theones who do commit suicide are the ones who keep silence about it. That is a 'knowledge'that is long time proven wrong. Now he threatens with it, but the way he lives ...He has to do something to someone, or to himself... I can't believe he will be 80 years old and healthy. His teeth are broken and faling out for the drugs abuse, he is skinny like he is severly ill ( dying cancer patient is looking like that)he is agressive toward lots of people ,mostly girls and young women, But those have fathers, brothers, friends who wil protect them and one day he will face the wrong one.
But does it matter how he will end?...he will end and I , his mother, have to face the facts and live with it..And when lying in that bodybag...who'll care how he got there?
Segaya

I have a funny feeling that it will be a whole other kind of guilt/greif/and hurt when that happens. I have a feeling that it still won't be over fro me if that happens. But at the same time, many people will be safer. I dread what he will try and do to his siblings (psychologically) once they are living on thier own and he finds out where they live. I think he will try to take advantage of them, move in on them, and most likely abuse them if they fall for his tricks and feel sorry for him.

Hi HadEnuff, if I may ask how old are your children still in your home?

Di

I only have one left at home now, 15 year old. My eldest (Psychopath) hasn't lived at home since my youngest was 8.

Hadenuff, you should not feel guilty if his reckless lifestyle will result in his death. It will put him out of his misery. Of course, if that happens, I can't even imagine the tremendous grieving process you will have to go through. But you have to understand that nothing of that is your fault, and you should not feel guilty about it. There is nothing you could of done to ever prevent any of those horrible things from happening, and no one could of in your position. No matter how "experienced" or "unexperienced", or "good" or "bad" parents are, there is nothing anyone could of done to raise him right. He is the way is, and no one has the power to change him. It is a true tragedy and a lot of pain, but that is the way it is. You just need to understand that nothing of that is your fault. Have a good day!

And again I agree. Will it ever be over for us?
No matter he is in jail or free for a while again. Somewhere in the back of my mind I think of him. I have to say when he is in jail I am at piece for a while at least. there he can't hurt himself or anyone else. I mean with not hurting himself; The drug use is atleast less, and he isn't driving cars. I say cars for he uses 7 to 10 cars a year. He always is in accidents and he is in hospital often. He broke every bone in his body uptill now and doesn't wait for the treatment to finish before having the next episode. Again another possibility to die! He can't blackmail nor manipulate anyone and his so called girlfriend for the moment is free from is agressiveness for the time being. He can't steal from any person or shop, and so on...
I know this about him going to die young for a very long time now and somehow..if possible, I made my peace with it.It is in my mind now and again, but it isn't making me crazy with panic any longer.
Knowing it will come sooner or later, doesn't mean I won't grieve, but I guess, and it is only guessing, that grieving will be different from mothers who loose their good, loving child.
Another thing is..When another parent is coping with a difficult child people are patient and supporting. Ask how you are and if it is oke with the child.. I think you know; people don't ask me that.so I guess they will not feel any compasion when I get the news my son isn't living anymore. In the past,. when he was in jail the first time people around me were very harse and only said things like; 'it is where he belongs, you do agree don't you!'....I was so confused back then..Don't they see the heartache of a mother, no matter what that child did, it is the son of that mother....
I know he is bad, but my cells don't,
I don't ask how it is for him; he is in jail , knows why and how it came that far..I don't...
I did my best to raise him properly, he didn't pick anything up from all my effort but non the less I put in my all and the pain was almost unbearable .
Now, so many years later, I am more at a distance and look at it in a more abstract way i suppose.
For the last , almost 2 years it is quit . I don't see him, I don't hear from him and it seems he has finally figured out that in times he is bored there is no use of trying to blackmail or manipulate me, so he leaves me alone....
Sometime, only now and again, I look at his page on the internet , just when I am thinking of him a bit extra, to see if I can something of what is happening., and maybe figure out why I am thinking of him more then usually.

I see you are worried about your other children. You wonder about if he will look for them when they are grown up and living on their own....Don't worry...he will!
Don't think for 1 minute he won't for again; you will hope, that takes all your energy and the disappointment will drain you even more.
Be sure he will, for that is what they do...
But also try to rely on the goodnes and intelligence of the other children.
Will he mess with them? Yess he will..
Will they let him mess with them...Yes they will for they still hope, still think of him as their brother.

They do remember what happened, and they are just like other people and will think; 'Maybe he changed after all. Everybody deserves another change!'
They need to be loyal to their brother, it is just one of those things of live.
but soon enough they will see him for what he is and they will make their own disicion to stop having contact. He will stalk them too but he will get bored with all of that and will leave them alone after some time.
Maybe that is the only trait in psychopaths we can trust...boredomm...
It is hard for you, being the mother, want to protect them for all the wrong and hurt, but you can't. Life is giving them life lessons too. And the only thing you can do is stand on the sideline watching..be ready when it is time to be their to help, comfort, explain and smile to them, telling you love them and still respect them.
I know the panic you feel when the psychopath son is approaching the younger ones.
My younger son is 8 years apart from my oldest He suffered greatly from his brothers behaviour and still choosed his side...still blamed me for he heard all the stories from his brother...he saw within a short time what his brother was really doing. He was scamed by his brother ...He is finished with him and doesn't want to see him anymore.
Letting go of the dreams we once had is the hard part I think....that is where the pain is coming from mostly probably?
Segaya

Hello Hadenuff

I have been following your posts and wanted to go over them before I responded to you and welcome you to the forum. I found it such a lifeline when I came across it and I could make sense of my reactions after being involved with my partner’s son.

At first I thought his kid was just spoiled and hadn’t been taught some of the social niceties and could be ‘educated’ but a deep seated personality disorder develops over time and far from anything improving, the opposite happened.

His story is he rejected his mother from birth so my partner took over his care as he worked from home. Their marriage lasted a further 18 months but her personality disorder (sounds histrionic to me) drove him to leave home. He remained in contact with his kid and had him to stay regularly and when he was 6 years old she phoned him and said to come and collect his kid as she couldn’t cope with him any longer. He was destroying her new marriage. He went to live with his father without a second glance or seeming to miss his new little brother.

We presumed that he had suffered abuse when he was with her but looking at things objectively what we would consider terrible parenting was probably exactly what a child would like. He was allowed to stay up to whatever hour, watch TV anytime and any programme he wanted, he could eat and drink anything he wanted, didn’t have to go to school let alone read the books sent home, could go anywhere she went even parties. He was completely free and when my partner took him he tried to make up for feeling guilty so the kid went from one indulgent situation to another.

When I came along and later tried to introduce acceptable parenting he did show signs of improving but of course it was only the ‘honeymoon period’. Then it all began to kick off and I could see why his mother wanted rid of him. Things became unbearable and he eventually went back to his mother at age 14, he is now 17 and we haven’t heard a word from him since. He left without a second glance….yes ..same as when he left his mother. He knows when he has exhausted his source of supply and it’s only because the mother thought she would get paid to have him back that she took him.

We didn’t have things as bad as you are experiencing but I recognise a lot of the behaviour. I firmly believe that psychopathy is something inbred in a small number of people and it develops depending on the circumstances. My partner’s kid was sort of OK when the two of them were on their own as he was totally indulged and I can imagine if a psychopath was born into a wealthy lifestyle he would become a different sort of adult psychopath to one brought up with less.

I have an idea of what you must have gone through and the rollercoaster ride of emotions, by listening to my partner. The expectations for a child to grow up happy and healthy and a pleasure to bring up are all lost when you have a child with a personality disorder. There is everything from denial to despair until eventually the situation is taken out of your hands. The self reflection of the parents, the feeling of loss almost the death of the child but without the finality. Then feeling guilty for being an inadequate parent and worse, a parent that doesn’t like their own child let alone love them. The guilt for producing a person that has no value to society and capable of committing serious crimes against others. Asking yourself what sort of person you are to feel like this. My partner went through hell accepting reality and like Segaya will always have some ‘love’ for his son. The son he wanted, the son he thought he had, the son he had aspirations for…the illusion. The son he now considers dead but someone else is walking about in his body.

I didn’t have most of these issues to deal with but had to question what sort of person I was to wish that a kid would drop off the planet. I did have the comfort of knowing I had done everything I possibly could for him before I gave up and he wasn’t a product of my genes. That was a hard fact for my partner to face but I believe the kid had a double dose of bad genes, first from his mother and also through his own side as he has a brother with a severe personality disorder. He can trace both lines and can identify problem personalities back a few generations.

It is hard for anyone without a child like this to really understand the emotions of the parents, the dilemma of loving and hating the same child. It’s human instinct to want to nurture our offspring otherwise mankind would not be here and how do you stop nurturing once you have started? The hope for change and the determination to make things better carry on, there is no way you can think ‘today is the day when I let everything go, let it all happen as it will’.

There are always those who sit in judgment but that does not happen on this forum, knowledge is power so all we can do is inform as many people as we can and maybe one day the professionals will gain insight into how psychopathy affects children and their families.

By sharing our experiences and ways of coping we can benefit each other without criticism from people who don’t understand.

Regards
Jan

Segaya and Jan, I hear you guys loud and clear, and I share most of the same emotions. It has been hard on us, and we have made it through...but it is far from over.

He just called us from jail. He landed there today and wants us to post bail, because as usual he is 'innocent' and jail is not good to screaming queens who cannot keep thier mouths shut. He is in for the greatest lesson of his life so far, and I will not post bail because he won't learn anything, and he will run to another territory as soon as they let him out. This I know. THey had a warrant for his arrest and he has spent the last year across the country because he knew they would catch him if he came back anywhere near here. I guess he thought they must have forgotten, because he came back and they now have him. nothing big, just drug related...isn't it irinic how us parents can be so relieved that it is *only* drug related:>) Only those of us who know how big it could have been...
So anyway I won't post his bale so he threatens to send some prison related chinese mafia after me...I won't even tell you how I think he's going to pay them to come after me...that is another sotry.
But I am feeling like I'm caught between a rock and a hard place...jail is NOT faggot friendly...I know that, but I also cannot post bail and have him living here. Why is it that they can still tear at your heart even when you are doing your best to stand strong? I don't know if I could forgive myself if he got killed in jail, especially because I wouldn't waste a few hundred dollars and spring him loose. A few hundred dollars is nothing compared to a life, but his life makes so many others miserable and unsafe.
I keep trying to ask myself from a Chirstian perspective, what God would have me do...and the answer is never forthcoming...

Hi Hadenuff,

I don't think he understands how devastating the situation is for you, that is why he keeps ripping your heart apart. I understand if he would say something like "Mom, I really messed up this time, could you please post bail, and I promise I will try to get help I need to fight my addiction, etc." But "I will send the Chinese mafia on you if you won't comply" is plain outrageous. Prison is a tough place, especially for gay people, but at the same time thousands of gays are currently incarcerated and doing fine, considering the circumstances. Back in college I used to volunteer with my group at a local facility by teaching inmates GED classes. It is not as bad as you think for them. He will be safer in prison. I am not really too knowledgable about the Bible, but I think it says somewhere "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

Hai hadenuff,
My heart goes out to you.I do understand where you are coming from.
I want to share some of my thoughts about this resueing feeling.
But first;

Forest Flower wrote;

I understand if he would say something like "Mom, I really messed up this time, could you please post bail, and I promise I will try to get help I need to fight my addiction,
As we know when something like this is said by our psychopath sons, we are immediatly on our toesWe watch our back and we will not rest!
A psychopath speaking like this is like being in a war and not knowing where the anemy is.

The way I deal with this whole issue of loving my son, wanting to take care of him and being so concerned came over the years and it took me very long to get to this attitude.
I leanred the hard way to let go. Now letting go is the hardest thing in life, but to let go of your own child is hell.
Of course on a certain point we don;t have to take care of them anymore, for children move out, so the practical care isn't needed anymore.
I am talking here about the emotional part of letting go.
being a religious person myself I asked myself som many questions and it was so hard to finally get it, but also a relieve;
I don't own my son...

This is probably a strange way of expressing but you have to forgive me, my native language isn't English!

I mean; He is his own person, he is to make his own mistakes (ahum) and his own decisions. He is free to be whoever he wants and he doesn't have to include me, or is't to give me any reasons for who he is and what he does.
The other side of this is that I am my own person too, I make my decisions and live my life how I choose to.
I don't owe anyone any explanation for the way I think, feel or act.

I, as a mother have an opinion on who my son is, but I am only human and who am I to make a judgement.

Everybody 's path of life is holy..If I really, really believe this then I know to let go and leave it upto a higher intelligence.
I know the bible...It says; ( sorry of I translate it wrongly, hope you get what I mean)
'Take care of your neighbour as you take care of yourself and god above all.'

The keyword in this is..as you take care of yourself!
You have to take care of yoruself .it is bvious in htis textpiece that at the end you are more responsible for hte person you are then you are or you nighbour( everubody else in yorulife).
This is hard, especialy for women for they have learned it differently; take care of everybody Accept yourself.

Now coming back to the same bible;
Isn't there a frase to about how God takes care of you and knows all that happends to you, even a hair won't fall of your head without Him knowing!

I am not here to teach you your bible...I try to give you some clues to hold on to and think about to see if there is a new way of dealing with those things.

It helped me a lot and I hope it will help you too...
Segaya

Hello Hadenuff

It's so hard to let go when it's in our nature to do the right thing and do the duty of a parent. Your son had choices and those decisions put him in jail so you have no influence on where he is. He is is an adult first and your son second now and as you say he is in for the greatest lessons of his life and they can't be taught by a parent. He is in the only place he is going to have anything positive happen to him, I hesitate to say a place where he will learn something but even if he learns to keep quiet it is something. If he has to be kept in isolation for his safety then he won't have the opportunities to learn more bad ways as usually happens.

On a practical level you will lose your bail money, he will run and have fresh territory to work on and access to drugs and the lifestyle it entails to get them. He will end up back in there anyway so the time out will only be temporary yet present opportunities to do what he does best.

The reason it gets to you is the same for all victims, they have a great sense of justice, affection and are trusting others are like them and do the right thing...along with bucketfuls of hope.

Maybe if you think about it as saving him from himself but more important stopping him destroying other people's lives. I know little about US jails but Forest Flower has 'inside' information and I suppose it all depends on your son's behaviour as to how he is treated.

Being a Christian I'm sure means taking care of everyone in society, doing the right thing for the majority not isolating one person's needs above others. There are many stories in the bible that tell of dilemmas and often they are resolved by lateral thinking. As an observer I would consider what is the biggest benefit for the majority of people.

I cannot see any benefit to society if your son is part of it and I can hardly see any benefit to him either. What will he do if he gets freedom and you have allowed him to be free by posting bail, no doubt you will feel incredibly guilty that he hurt someone else? If he does a runner he will immediately put himself in trouble and you seem confident that he will.

These are decisions that have to be made with the head and not the heart which is so easy to say when it's not your own son.
You have made the right decision not to post bail and I'm sure everyone here will say the same and support you fully on that.

This man is no longer the son you had so try to think how you would advise someone else if he was their son.

Regards
Jan

I am trying hard to believe that leaving him in prison is the best thing for him. He has this power game that he plays though, and he is going to really learn some hard lessons about trying to play that game in there...hopefully he knows better than to try. He likes to threaten authorities with charges of sexual abuse...he plays it everytime he gets in trouble. He will try and charge a jail guard with coming into his cell and abusing him. My son is forever the victim, and as far as he's concerned there's a hidden sexual agenda in everyone he meets, and they all want a 'piece' of him. When he was in juvie quite a few years back he tried to press charges on a couple of the workers there, because they tried to restrain him when he was pulling a screaming tantrum.
He has this other game he plays to psychologically disarm people as well. He sings at the top of his lungs...sometimes in opera...somtimes just renditions of gospel songs...and he will do this until you have to leave because he doesn't hear you say STOP! He has a habit of calling everybody he knows and singing until you hang up, or filling your answering machine with it. You have to hear it to believe it...
and he does the same thing with dancing. He thinks he is the best singer/dancer in the world and if you have a mirror in your home he is dancing in front of it in very sexually provoking ways, no matter who is there. He used to do it alot if he stopped in to visit and we had company. He does it to embarrass us, and he succeeds:>)
Everything single thing he does is for our psychological demise. He plays it to the hilt. He does it, simply to pi$$ people off. He does it on the streets of cites and gets spit on and then uses that to collect sympathy from others. He seems to thrive on forcing people top abuse him in some way so he can collect pity. I don't know, I don't understand it...but it worked well for him when he was a kid. I think he is beginning to realize it doesn't work so well anymore so he is switching gears to another game. But he still usus that one when he can
In many ways I am glad he is in jail...it is a releif to us in the way that I don't feel like I have to lock all our doors in the daytime. He has been known to show up here unanounced and can be quite destructive. Ahhh, the joys. I just hope he learns to be quiet in there, and lay low, but I know better.

hi Hadenuff

Something you said just struck a chord (no pun intended) with me...you said your son does things to annoy people then expects sympathy for being the victim. My partner's kid wet the bed and liked people to know about it and if they didn't know he made a point of telling them...for sympathy! He did it in purpose, as we found out when we refused to let him go on a school trip, any other kid would have been so embarrassed at doing let alone wanting people to know. This is as a teenager!

He even ramped it up because we totally ignored it, we didn't even make a comment about it and left a supply of pull ups in his room so we didn't have to take part in the game. It then escalated to smearing.

Your son also sounds very narcissistic, has be always been this way or is it a tactic he has developed more recently?

I know what a relief it is when you can leave responsibility to someone else. Take this time to get some peace of mind and whatever situation he gets into is down to him and I'm sure the prison wardens are aware of allegations that may get thrown at them.

It's good to see you still have a sense of humour!

Take care
Jan

Hi HadEnuff, there is no better victim than a Psychopath.

You all know I watch probably too many true crime and forensic shows, for awhile I was watching this series about inside prisons. I saw one on gay women and one on gay men. It was interesting because they featured a straight male inmate with a gay lover who waited on him hand and foot. The straight inmate said that actually when he was released he would return to being with women. They all wanted sex so gay partners were perfect. The featured gay guy said that while he may be shunned when others can see but they all came to him for sex. In one scene the producers showed a very queen gay guy playing some board game by himself and the other prisoners were at a distance but the producer noted that as they pulled the cameras away the other inmates joined him.

I am not saying prison or jail is a great place to be but if you are gay it would certainly be better treatment than a child molestor.

Inmates file complaints some as crazy as the food they are served so complaining about things would be the norm in prison and I suspect well equipted with cameras.

I don't know about where you are and am certainly not asking but here in the US prisoners have to call collect and the fees are really, really high. Can you or would you not accept his calls?

I may have missed something but how long and what were his charges for getting into jail?

Di

It must be terrible as a parent to deny bail but with a Psychopath the odds of him jumping bail and sticking you with the bill would not surprise me. Besides if he does get bailed out does he think he can live with you and your family? Being a strong advocate of cameras etc. I would use this time to get some in place, it would be easy if he was caught on tape if his probation officer was informed. Do you have a restraining order against him? I think catching him on camera would work best if there is a restraining order in place, or he is caught doing something on your property, just my guess.

Your description sounds so much like something my son wouold do! I don't understand this aspect of them, but they are indeed filled with strange attention getting behaviors. My son smeared crap all over the washroom one time as a tactic to get rid of the babysitter I had hired. It worked. She called me at work and told me I had 15 minutes to get home, she was quittting...



He has always been this way, he has gotten much better at it in adulthood...but he has always had a knack for it.



[quote/Jan]It's good to see you still have a sense of humour!

Take care
Jan [/quote]

A sense of humor is a requirement when raising kids like these:>) It's either laugh, or be filled with shame, agony, and guilt...full time.

Dianne,
The problem is, he does have some molesting charges on him...at least he told me once that someone was attempting to charge him for something he did to a 4 year old girl. I don't know if it was true, or if he was just trying to get a rise out of me again...You never know what the truth is or the lies coming from him. He didn't seem all that concerned, and got angry at me because I wouldn't defend the idea that *he would never do that* I tried to explain to him that I have really no idea what he is capeable of because he has always proven himself to be capeable of anything...

I don't know what to think about the whole se in jail thing...I do know that it makes me sick to my stomach to know he is quite capeable of using his body to get what he wants...ugh.

He knows very well that he canot live with us, we would never allow it, he hgasn't been allowed to even visit our home in a long long time. All his calls here are collect...I just have a really hard time denying my kid something as little as a phonecall. But at the same time he uses phonecalls to really uypset me. And yes, the phone bill is always high, he calls collect every day just to rimind us that he is alive and to try and say something/anything that will have some *wow factor*

It is extreme psychological abuse. I often get huge anxiety attacks after speaking to him. I used to be such a happy-go-lucky social person and now I have been reduced to a fearful anxiety stricken home body. Very destructive.

Hi HadEnuff,

How about since it is difficult to not accept his calls to start to wean yourself away and only take say, one a week and keep tapering off. It sounds like it is giving you way too much pressure and bringing you back to a situation that will never resolve itself. Hearing the phone ring should not make a person jump out of their skin.

He would more than likely, just a guess, use his body to get where he wants either in jail or on the outside.

Please don't let him continue to punish you in this way. If you have a recorder or caller ID, just set it on that so there will be no answer on your end. This way his voice will never come through to taunt you because the phone won't let him speak without accepting charges. I would erase those collect calls that you hopefully can do and not even listen to them. Have you considered getting a new phone number? Hearing about tragic things can bring us right back to the trauma like it is happening again. At least here in the US I think they only get to have so many phone calls per day. I would venture to suspect that even seeing the phone bill brings it all up again for you, not just the charges, but the emotions attached to your pain.

Does he ever write or have money put on his books? (here people can put money on the books for an inmate to shop for items)

It is a huge step but perhaps this may sound cold but not accepting his calls is your way of cutting the cord for good.

I never had children by choice but have studied victims for over 10 years and apologize if this is coming across as harsh in any way, I am just trying to put out some things for you to stop this harrasment from behind bars so to speak and take back your own power.

Di

Here you can have access to criminal records.

I've tried limiting him to one call a week, on Sundays. He calls every other day anyway. You know that spot where the operator gets you to say your name in a collect call...well he uses that spot to quickly say all kinds of abusive things if the answering machine picks up, or if he knows I really have bben harrased enough alread and will hang up. Sometimes worse than others. I really do have to learn to hang up right away and not worry about it. We are changing our number, but at present our home is up for sale, and DH runs a home office here. I got a cell phone yesterday and the number will be givin only to close family who may need us for some reason in the night. That way we will simply be able to ignore the other phone at night...turn off the ringer.
When we move we are hoping to be able to break ties with im altogether but someone will most likely let him know where we are...we have too big of a family to be able to silence every one. He will, however, call our places of work at that point and God only knows what kind of garbage they will end up with:>)
I will not put money on his 'books' Prison is to teach a person a lesson, not shop for extras...I won't help him in any way unless he is helping himself (whcih hasn't happened in a long time) And being in prison doesn't qualify for 'helping yourself'

So far we have accepted his calls so we wouldn't piss him off. You have no idea what this kid is capeable of when pissed off. We have tried to stay on a civil level with him because he knows where we live and we have had experiences... When he is across the country we feel safe...when he gets closer we start locking the doors and windows, and watching our backs a little more. Right now with him in jail we can rest easy for a while at least. The problem is that we don't know anything about the situation so we don't know when he will get out and maybe head this way for payback. Can a person call a prison and get info? We are in Canada by the way

Just had a brainstorm! Since he is in jail it means he actually has an ADRESS that can be used in order to get a restraining order put on him. So I called the jail, only to find out that they released him yesterday! Someone posted his bail...there really is a SUCKER born every minute...
When I checked my messages this morning there was a message on there that was from a cell phone that was not properly in service. I'm sure it was him, it seemed like whoever was on the other line was angry but I couldn't catch what they were saying. I hope that doesn't mean he's headed here because I am going to finish this once and for all. You know what, I am getting angry now. He just finds a way around EVERYTHING and continues to play his outrageous games!

Hi HadEnuff,

I don't think you can call and get information without his signature, just guessing, here every prison has a court appointed attorney which you may try to find out about. I would however call and see if there is a release date and what the parole situation (here they can only go a certain distance or wear an ankle bracelet or house confinemt, one thing that they do here is a prisoner has to also show where they plan to live. You can google different questions like Canadian criminal laws, Canada prison system, Canada restraining orders. Here there is a difference between jail and prison, is that the same there? What about restraining orders? I would for sure consider a restraining order but that is your decision.

A restraining order would get him tossed back into jail if he comes within a certain distance of you, at least here particularly fear of bodily harm. When he gets out I would certainly contact his parole officer.

Di

Hi HadEnuff,

You can call the jail (I think he is still in jail, not a prison, because he hasn't been convicted yet), but if the administration will be too slow on answering your questions, you need to find out what court he will be going to and the court date. I know in US prison it is the case manager who would handle this kind of info. I don't know if they have them in jails. You need to find out who is his public defender and talk to him or her. You need to find out if his court date has been already set and go to court where you will see his public defender. Here in States, if a jail is in the particular county, then the hearings are being set in that county's Superior Court (unless inmates are on transfer to another county), and you can go to the court house and ask there if the court date has been set for him. I don't know if it the same in Canada, but if you find out which court will be handling his case, you can get the name of his public defender in there.

I used to be in exactly the same situation with stalking phone calls. After about 10 years of those I started having severe panic attacks which disabled me for a very long time and were very hard to get rid of. Those are not fun. This kind of situation is very bad for your health. What I eventually did, I got the phone without the answering machine and would not pick up when it was ringing. This way he would think you are simply not home and not just ignoring him. This will reduce his chance of retaliating. Then you can switch the ringing sound off on the phone so you won't hear when it rings. Only answer the cell phone and only if you recognize the number. That is what I did, and it saved me a lot of health.

He was released yesterday, somebody posted his bail, probably bio dad, (let me use the word hereditary) Yes, so now psycho son and psycho dad are together...oh happy days...I hope this house sells quick!

Next time he ends up in prison I am going to have to think and act alot quicker.

Hi Hadenuff

The smearing faeces was the point of no return for both my partner and myself. The first time it happened I didn't see it for what it was. I missed the intention. By the third time I blew a fuse and from the moment I realised I made the decision that it was the kid or me who had to go.

Of course it would have to be me that left because my partner had a commitment to raise his kid and there was nowhere else for him to go at that time as he would not consider letting him go back to his mother.
My partner was hit right between the eyes with this latest stunt and couldn't understand how a kid of that age could be so nasty and plan such a thing, he couldn't get his head round the idea that a child would have those thought processes. It didn't surprise me at all and all those other little accidents and events became obvious for what they were.
There could be no more denial, excuses or reasoning and he had to accept what his kid was.

His commitment to the kid went completely and he realised he had no control of him in the sense that the kid had total control over his bladder, bowels and thoughts and was prepared to use them as a weapon. What would happen if he got a real weapon? There was nothing more he could do for the kid and it affected him so badly that he had produced this thing and he didn't know him and couldn't influence him in any way. The self doubt and blame was overwhelming. He knew the kid was trying to destroy us and made the decision that the kid had to go somewhere he could do less damage or more damage as the case may be so he came to the attention of the authorities. Boarding school was the interim step but they couldn't cope with him and he went back to his mother which was his choice.

A sense of humour is vital and we can make light of things now and we need not feel guilty for using it. It's OK for me because I feel no guilt about any of what happened, I did more for that kid than I did for anyone else I have ever known all to no avail. It took two years for my partner to think the same way. He now tries not to think about him or even that he existed but I know he still feels to blame for many things mainly for putting someone like that into society. I consider we were the lucky ones as the kid was very cowardly so not a physical threat apart from the covert incidents but of course that may change as he gets older.

I don't know whether very early intervention would have made any difference like some of the professionals say, maybe the only thing that would have helped is recognition of the problem so everyone was aware and could be vigilant. We would have appreciated respite care with someone who knew what they were dealing with but there is no such thing available.
Unless we can get a real diagnosis for these kids we will get nowhere and the professionals need to be made aware of what we endure or we will never change anything for future parents.

Regards
Jan

Is there ANYTHING that can be done for these kinds of kids? Has anyone had any luck at all with medication or treatment of some kind. Are they truly lost causes that will never really fit into society and always try and hurt anyone they come into contact with?

My son is currently on probation and seems to have an officer that would be willing to go the extra mile to get to the bottom of the issues and try and get help for him. Should I hold any hope at all?
I do feel sorry for the probabtion officer though, he has no idea what he is getting himself into, and my son is *very* good at getting anyone in a position of authority over him in some kind of trouble.

Hello Hadenuff

As far as psychopaths go there is no cure, no medication or therapy. As we cannot get a diagnosis for anyone under the age of 18 we cannot officially say we are dealing with a psychopathic child. Of course there are different degrees of Conduct Disorder but I think we know if we are dealing with one. By the time the person is 18 where and how do you start looking for help?

I wonder why your son's probation officer want to go that extra mile. it says more about him than your son. Of course it would be wonderful if he could get to the bottom of his issues....he would be an instant multi-millionaire if he found the 'holy grail' of psychopathy. I'm sure there are many psychologists who have devoted their entire careers looking for it but have you heard of any success?

Some thing just are what they are and like a child born with Down's Syndrome we just have to accept that nothing can change the condition. The only thing that can be changed is how we deal with what we are given. I thought of that so often, if my partner's kid had Down's Syndrome we would have willingly spent all our efforts doing the best for him and with him but his kid had a choice and that was to destroy everything and everyone. We gave ourselves to this kid for nothing. We had to accept he has a personality disorder and when he wanted something he certainly knew how to be the perfect child so he definitely knew what he should be. If he could do it for a week, he could do it for a month, a year or longer but he chose not to. As soon as he acquired what he wanted the facade would disappear or he would covertly cause mayhem.

Your son's probation officer might become your son's victim but whatever, he is on a steep learning curve and the first thing I would ask him is if he has read Without Conscience.
It will be good for his education and career to take on this challenge and also for the knowledge he might pass on to his colleagues. He will find out for himself that it is beyond his capabilities so he may well come to you for advice before long if you haven't suggested he is being naive.

How are things for you now?

Regards
Jan

Actually the probation officer used the word narcissistic...so perhaps they do have an idea what they are dealing with. I can only hope so.
I sooo hear you about the downs syndrome...I have often wished it had been downs instead of what we have to deal with, but then, would life really be that much eassier? I think not...at least ours DO grow up and leave home at some point. Down's is an awful lot of work for a whole lifetime.

Things here have been good...I have been working on a few projects around here to keep my ever wandering mind occupied:>) I'm sewing up a storm, and also restoring a vintage camper. Hardly have time to think...I like it that way.
The long weekend is coming up and I have alot of company coming...who knows...Psychopath himself might even make an appearance. I haven't seen him in about 8 or 9 months now.

Hi HadEnuff, can I put in an order for a few things for you to sew;)

If you could slip it in not all N's are Psychopaths but all Psychopaths have N tendencies.

I am extremely happy the Probation Officer is willing to work with you. He doesn't sound like the type the young Psychopath can overtake. The great news is that this information can be shared with other Probation Officers.

Being in the present moment with your projects is great, if the mind swings to the situation take a breath and bring yourself to the present moment.

From a distance you are doing all the right things and it is great you are doing some projects to keep your mind occupied.

Best regards,

Di

If he does show up don't be surprised if he tries to con the guests about what a lousy life he had. No better at playing the victim than a Psychopath.

Thank goodness he didn't come for the weekend. Oh, he sure is a pity trip when he does, you are so right. You should hear the stories he tells...how life is so terrible oput on the streets and he doesn't have a family to take him in...then get a job like everyone else!

I'm still sewing:>)

Hi HadEnuff,

We have heard that same pathetic story time and time again. It is a ploy used often to say the least. It is a way to isolate the victim. After all if he talks about his family etc. in such a normal person might take pity. Also it gets ever meeting his family off of your mind.

There is no one better at playing the victim card while they are victimizing the true victim.

Di

I am glad he didn't show, does he have a schedule that he keeps? I hope he doesn't have keys to your home.

Hi Everyone,
This is my first time on here. I have been the victim of some psychopaths in the past and have done a lot of healing over the last year. I have also recently realized that my daughter (who is 30) is a psychopath, (like her Dad, my ex).
Tilly

Hello Tilly

Welcome to the forum.

Maybe you could tell us a bit more about your situation and what brought you to the forum. If there is any information we can help you with please let us know. It must be incredibly sad for you that you think your daughter is a psychopath just like her father.

You say you have spent the past year trying to get over this and it just goes to show how deeply wounded people are. You are obviously sure your (ex?) husband is a psychopath so you must know the signs.

There has been a lot of research and discussion about whether psychopathy is nature or nurture and the professionals seem to think it is both but I feel quite sure it is more nature than nurture from my own experience and from what other people say about the children they know who show psychopathic traits.
I would be very interested to hear about your experiences and when you first suspected something was wrong with your daughter.

I hope you feel you can tell us more about what you have been through. Sometimes it just helps to unburden yourself by telling others who understand everything you say without even having to go into details.

I look forward to hearing more from you.

Regards
Jan

Tilly~

I have to deal w/psychopaths on a daily basis for over 2 decades and I'll soon be going on three. I'm sorry to hear that your daughter is psychopathic. I have a son and he isn't psychopathic yet. There is always a possibility (NPD) it could happen. I worry about it a lot. I feel that as he gets older his chances of leading a non pychopathic life increase each day. In my family psychopathy is genetic---Why I worry about it. I wish I didn't have to.

Please tell us more when you have time.

Thank you Jan,
I am recovering from a relationship with the last "psychopath" boyfriend. I left my psychopath husband many many years ago, however there is ongoing trauma in regards to the damage he has done. My story is long so I am only capable of telling "bits" at a time. Suffice it to say, I only realized in the last year that psychopathy is mainly genetic. Prior to this year, I had firmly believed that psychopaths were a result of a brutal childhood. I believed this because my parents and my brother were violent psychopaths and to "justify" it ( i.e. to be able to survive it), I determined very young that they all had come from brutal childhoods and they didn't know any better, ( in regards to my brother I was in denial).


I then became the classic case of "marrying" the same type as my parents. He was the most brutal psychopath I have ever met.

When I finally left him, I had not "got the lesson". I still believed psychopaths were the outcome of a brutal childhood. He said that he had had a "brutal childhood" . It is only in retrospect that I realized this was probably untrue. Anyway, I ended up in intimate relationships with psychopaths over my life.

It was the ending of the last psychopath relationship that I finally read Dr. Hares Book and began studying psychopaths properly. Until that date I had "searched everywhere" but I had only found Sam Vanknin's book and some shallow interpretations of what psychopathy is.

When I realized it could also be genetic I had my "uh HUH!" moment with my daughter. I have gone "no contact" with her and it is hurting me badly. Still, I know it would hurt me worse in the long run, if I continued to stay in denial. But I am not 100% sure yet whether to stay "no contact" as I still love the "fantasy empathetic person" of her that I have had all my life. Still, I know now that I gave her everything in love and opportunity and she is the female version of her father, only not yet that evil. She has had a charmed upbringing, so it must be mostly genetic.

Everything suddenly made sense. It was the missing piece in the jig-saw for me. I still wish I was wrong. Everyday I hope "please let me be wrong" and "maybe I am wrong". I also have a middle son ( I have three children), and I think to myself, "maybe he is one too" as I never hear from him. But I am not up to coping with that reality yet. I want to stay in denial until I have dealt with the reality of losing my oldest daughter.

My youngest son is very close to me. But he had a different father. His father was an extreme narcissist but not a psychopath. There I go, minimising it again! His father was violent too and a marijuana addict. He also was probably a low level psychopath, but compared with my husband and others he was not as bad.

It has been a long, long journey. And I am so glad to have found your site, as I really like to discuss psychopathy and stay in touch with new developments and I have huge admiration for Dr. Hares work.

Thank you again. I am glad I have found you.

I have one close "email" friend who understands psychopathy and understand and supports me and I her. I will tell her about this site. It is great to find your site. It is a relief.

The more people we can awaken to the truth of psychopathy the better our society will become, and the less devastation will be experience.
At present, I tend to disagree with my friend. She says that until you experience the psychopath, you just can't "get it".

Maybe we can change that, I hope so.

Tilly.

I try to remain positive as much as possible. Even if you are aware of the psychopaths in your family, significant others and even ones we meet daily/work w/ etc...this only helps reduce the amount of damage they can cause you. They will cause you problems. You have to watch them. This has just been my personal experience w/them.

To all of you who have pyschopathic kids,

Watch the movie "Bad Seed" and "The Good Son". You are not responsible for this hateful individual. You are not responsible for another person's choices. They chose to be evil because they get off on it and it makes them feel powerful and they are lazy so they look for an easy out. They will become prostitutes or get money from you or will steal or trick someone or will plan to kill somone off for insurance money.


I grew up with a sadistic psychopathic sister and a sadistic psychopathic father. They don't really feel anything and only fake emotional responses to get some sort of control.

They have no guilt. They take and use and hate.

Stay away from them.

Hello Emily

I have watched the movie and it's a very good portrayal of a child psychopath. Primarily it shows how parents are in denial and the frustration of others who can see what the psychopath is doing but no-one believes them. Whoever wrote it certainly knows what a fledgling psychopath is.

Unfortunately parents cannot abandon their child until something happens and the child is taken away from them or they are old enough to leave home. We were fortunate that my partner's son made his own decision at age 14 to go back to his personality disordered mother, not many people will have such a convenient option.

I do agree that these people should be avoided at all costs because of the damage they have done and will continue to do as they will never change, it is obvious how hurt and angry you are still. Could you tell us a little more about your life with your sister and father and your relationship with your mother.

Many people who are married to a psychopath find it incredibly hard to get away especially if there are children involved as often courts insist that both parents have access or visitation rights. Many are scared for the safety of their children but cannot fight the legal decisions made.

Did you find it difficult to keep away from your family?

Regards
Jan

Hello, Tilly - and welcome!

I'm afraid that I have to agree with your friend. In my experience, the only people who understand psychopathic behavior are those who have had the misfortune to have dealt with a psychopath "up close and personal." And they get it right away!

Most folks just nod and mutter some platitude, "Too bad the marriage didn't work out," "Some guys are like that," or some such nonsense.

It's just so difficult to understand that there is nothing we can do to change them! Even saying they are "sick" doesn't cut it, because that implies a possibility of them "getting better." Which ain't happening.

Best,
Melissa

I have had blinders on for a long time. So many things I just marked off as children, then as teens, and then as young adult. My son, who is 35 now, has viciously tore me down so many times. He has me looking back to see what have I done to bring him this much hatred for me. "Mom, don't you think I have feelings?", "Mom,be on my side for a change",etc. He has cornered me so many times and told me things that are scary and then tells me I can't tell anyone. He calls me in a panic, "Mom, Mom, Mom.....". I start shaking. He doesn't ever listen to anything I tell him, but as soon as his "house of cards" (as I call it)falls down, I am the one he calls to fix it. But, it has to be fixed the way he wants it fixed. He just wants to use my resources, honesty, my love for him and whatever else I can do for him. He forgets everything anyone has done for him the moment it is over. He never forgets even the smallest of transgressions that anyone has ever done to him (even just in his mind). He is forever in your space, with his charming smile, but when it doesn't go as he wants it to, then this vicious, hateful bully takes over. I am shaking too bad to go on right now. But it does feel good to put this out there perhaps to someone else who knows how I feel.

Hi Little Deb, it must be a parents worst nightmare to come to this realization. When you are comfortable I know from our members that it does help to talk about it even in short parts when you can express how you feel. It must feel horrible to face this and we are here for you to listen to your story.

It is a typical pattern for a Psychopath to always view themselves as a victim in their own minds. Always remember that you did nothing wrong, he is an adult. The blame game is one of the best tools in their kits of abuse to get their way.

Di

Thanks Dianne,

Right now I have backed away from my son because of an incident that happened a couple of weeks ago. That is what I do, but my heart still aches for my son, I love him. I hurt when I feel like he is hurting and when wrongs are done to him. Time goes on and then the same cycle will happen again, only this time I will know what I am dealing with. Very little contact, possible, not contact, very unlikely. I also have a brother who may also have this same thing as my son. Yes,it is hard to actually admit to, but I am working on that and looking with wide open eyes. Looking at several others in my life with different eyes. But, my son...This is on the scary side.

I left his father when he was 12 and his sister was 8. Their father was a very active alcholic and getting worse every day. He almost killed us a few times (accidentally)and I had to get my children and myself out of there.

I have it on film where it tied up a make shift swing and coaxed his sister on it and started laughing a little too soon before the swing broke. He has coaxed or should I say bullied her into lots of things. He used to stand up against her and look down at her in a very intimidating way. He made contracts with her to clean his room, etc. and got her to sign them and had clauses like: giving him a two week notice without getting paid. He always added other things to her list of things to do. I would tell her time and time again not to sign (thinking that this was just a big brother trick) but, still she would. One time, he came in the living room with his little sister and put a black garbage bag over her head and started duct taping her neck. As I was getting up to rescue her he opened the airway in the bag and had her clean out the wood stove (the bag thus protecting her from getting dirty). I know this was for effect but didn't at the time realize that it was for my reaction.

He grew up to be very good looking, blond hair, piercing blue eyes, 6'2 and a smile that would melt your heart. He works in the construction field and one of his bosses told me that women would come out and take pictures of him. That he had never seen anything like it.

The story I would like to share is that he had a child at 18 years old. He seemed thrilled. When his son was born, he told me that he didn't know that you could love something that much. I believed that and I guess that is one of the reason's I haven't put two and two together, because I always believed that he could love.

Anyway, with out giving a lot of detail. The mother and him broke up and soon she got mad and took the baby away from him, telling him that he would never see the child again. My son seemed devistated. He told me of laying in a field just to see his son when she picked him up....

The day before the custody hearing, he kidnapped the mother. My world changed forever. I thought that he just snapped and that when he did he reacted as his father had indicated not as I was telling him. The Sunday after my son was arrested, I was told that he tried to commit suiside and my legs fell out from under me...a few weeks later I got to see him (behind glass)in solitary. I told him never to do that again and he winked at me and smiled, like it was all a game.

He was sentenced and first went to a florida prison. I went to go see him. This waa the first time I had been able to touch him in a year. His face was contorted, his eyes were wrong and it took about 20 minutes before I saw a little of my son in his face.

When my son did finally get out of prison, my 12 year old step daughter wanted to meet him and was a little miffed that he had never written her back. But, when she saw him she said "how can anyone stay mad at him?"

My son has been out for a few years now and my grandson who was 15 months old when this happened is now 15 years old.

Since my son has been out, it has been like he lives on the edge of a well of the law and when he falls in he expects me to get him out. I have told him that I will not get him out again and then he was in jail the next week and was very angry because I didn't get him out (tough love is hard enough without looking back at what I was standing up against). Anything that has ever been said is taken out of context and used against anyone. He has written (and used my father and step mom to do the delivery)horrible letters to the family because he felt he was wronged. One time I told him that I had nothing to do with what happened and his responce, "I find it very hard to believe that you knew nothing about it."

I have felt that my son has mental issues, and have even went to a support group I found. Some of the things he does look like different things (panic attacks, etc) and his paternal grandmother has been diagnosed with some of them. My brother, shows some symptems. But, the vicious reactions my son has if someone doesn't do what he wants them to do is very, very scary. I am afraid of him, I believe that he could hurt me.

What happened the other day had to do with seeing his son, me trying to set it up(yes, I felt sorry for him, his wife (subject) said that he cried about not seeing his son), his son not wanting to see him and when I let my son know this, it wasn't "Thanks Mom for trying", It was you have always been a horrible mother......, his wife texted me hateful things, he texted me hateful, vicious things.....I was broken, yet again.

As much as I love my son, I don't want to keep going through this, over and over and over. My thoughts about my children getting along, well that isn't going to happen. My son, will soften and my heart will hurt for him and the cycle will happen again. He is attached and I don't know if I can cut that part of me out and not ever have contact. It is such a double edged sword.

Yesterday my daughter came by to pick up her son and I contimplated letting her know about the information that I had found out about socipaths and psychopaths. As I was looking up the marked site, she asked me if I had talked to Wayne (not real name) and I showed her the checklist and questions. She said that yes it all sounded just like Wayne. She did pause on the no love part, because she said that he loved his son. I question that now. Because he was born to Wayne, does that make him his property? This still puzzles me? But anyway, I asked my daughter about her cat and that I knew that Wayne threw the cat up in the tree as far as he could but did he do other things? She said yes, he put the cat in the freezer and microwave and everytime the cat heard Wayne come in the house he would escape out of the window.

I asked her about the garbage bag incident and she said that he did it to see both of our reactions. I asked her how she felt at that time, whether she knew what he was going to do? She said that she didn't really remember, but she did remember waking up in the shower, in a box that Wayne had duct taped shut.

Now, I have many many memories flooding back of things that Wayne has done. His eyes how much hate I saw in them, time and time again. How did I not see, especially when he was younger. I wonder how many things he did to his little sister that I didn't know about or just didn't see.

As my daughter was leaving, with tears in her eyes, she said that she really would like to have a brother.

Hi Little Deb



It is highly likely that since "Wayne" is a probably well socialized Psychopath he may just in fact be acting like he loves his son. It isn't possible for them to love or care for anyone but themselves, but a good actor could give that impression.

Does Wayne have visitation, what is the situation?



I think that in retrospect some things are just easier to see. It was many years ago and I suspect you probably had the feeling he was either just going through some stage, please know you did everything you could. It would have been hard that many years ago with such a little discussed topic in general even today to have put the pieces together back then.

I am truly sorry for your situation, it must be the worst pain a parent has to face.

Di

Dianne,
Wayne's son was about 2 years old when the kidnapping happened. April (I will call the mother), said that I could still see my grandchild. She however, has a very bad temper and especially when she was young,would take my grandson away for 6 months or more at a time. I have continued to work at this relationship and contact with my grandson since. He is a caring child.

When Wayne got out of prison the only way that he could see his son was under supervision in a room. My grandson was about 7 at this time. They did hit it off. Wayne told me that he had wispered to his son "that they were smarter than everyone else". It wasn't long before Wayne couldn't stand the little room and wanted to see his son over at my home. April agreed to this under my supervision. First time at my house and Wayne had walkie talkie's and wanted to use them at another place. I told him that he couldn't go anywhere with his son. I left the room so that he could have some private time. I heard the car start up, and he was gone... I was in a frantic. I looked at my daughters, my mom's, his dad's and on my way home I was thinking, " Am I going to have to call the law on my own son?" When I arrived at home, I saw their shoes on my porch so I knew that they had come back by. I left again and saw Wayne's car at my mom's. Wayne came out with his smile and getting in my space.."Oh Mom I am sooo happy, and he is having such a good time. etc" And all I could think about was getting past Wayne without him getting angry and getting my grandson in my possesion. I managed. I took my little grandson home and put him on my lap and told him"What a complicated little life you have, That both his Mom and his Dad loved him, but his Mom had custody and so anytime that Wayne wanted him to go anywhere with him, just tell him that "you have to say Bye to Grandma" and I would let you know if you could go".
I told April and she said that she would let me handle it. So I talked to Wayne and on another date (he bought a 4 wheeler just for this) where he could take his son riding for 20 minutes. My Mom, Wayne's step children, My daughter and her son where at my house and for the first time in such a long time, I felt like a family. Short lived though, April got mad and took my grandson away again and I didn't see him until two years ago.

No Wayne couldn't see him. But about 5 months ago the father of April's 2 girls was killed in an auto accident and she felt bad that they hadn't seen their father in a year. She told me that Wayne could see my grandson. My grandson is not ready. Another story, another time.

I have always felt like I need to protect the heart and mind of my grandson through everything. Still do. But, now I have more information than I did before and I don't want my grandson to be ripped apart emotionally. So, how do I accomplish this? Don't know yet. He is but 15. Girls, school, puberty, friends, driving, what to do with my life?, etc. is his life right now. And this new found knowledge is really enough for me right now and I will find a way to continue to protect my little grandson.

Thanks for being there,

Hi Little Deb, I can't imagine the pain all these years have brought to you. You are a wonderful grandmother to protect your grandson. The truth while it is hard to deal with will help.

If you don't mind my asking what was "Wayne" in prison for?

I don't know if you are able or have explored the option of where your grandson can live. In most states here when a child reaches a certain age they can decide who they want to live with, is this possible for you?

It is possible that he can get a Guardian Ad Litem. Here is a link to the information here at the forum

Legal Resources

Di

Wayne was in prison for kidnapping April the day before the custody hearing. Because he went across state line it went federal.

My grandson is with his mother. Even though she has anger issues, stress of being a single mom. She really is an OK mom. My grandson is a good natured young man. He likes people and goes out of his way to make a person's day. I have decided that he really doesn't need to see Wayne. And other than court, he doesn't have any way of seeing him but through me, and after his latest anger thing and the information I have found out, I am not leaving a door open for that. I really don't want to tell my grandson that his father is a pshycopath, nor do I want to tell April.

Grandmothers, we have been children and have raised children and grandchildren are gifted with the knowledge and love that we have. I don't think that seeing Wayne or even knowing about him is best. My grandson should be enjoying his teen years.

In the first post I did talk a little about the kidnapping, but as I look back I wonder what all were just mirrors and flash.


again, thanks

Little Deb, every child would be lucky and fortunate to have a grandmother like you in their lives.

I think you are right in not telling April and your grandson what Wayne really is, at least not now. I am not for keeping family secrets but he is too young and would be too much for him.

Because Psychopathy is a genetic thing, there might be a time that he should know before he has kids of his own to make an informed decision.

I never really knew my grandparents and I would pick you if I had the choice, you are wonderful for all your support and love you are giving.

Di

Thanks Dianne,

Things are quiet right now, but I won't know when and where things will start up again. The drama just comes from left field most of the time. I will write again. Thank you for being there, it is a little better when you know someone else understands, even just a little.

Hi Little Deb, I know it must be a horrible thing to know when the left field curve might hit. Now that you know what he is I feel like knowledge is power and you know what you are dealing with.

Your grandson is one lucky person to have you in his corner.

Di

Well, it might have been quiet for me for just a few days. My step mom took me to lunch (she had invited me two weeks ago-"because I have been so sweet by checking on her weekly since her son died a couple of months ago"), I have been sick so I called her today to see about lunch.

When she sat down, she took my hands and had to talk to me about Wayne and his wife Mary. Things were awful. Mary lost her custody case (her daughter) and it hadn't even went to trial and they didn't know why and they were just so upset. My step mom was worried about her committing suicide and Wayne as well, a double suicide, because he was soooooo upset about not being able to see his son. That he has been calling her crying and that April is the key in his son not coming to see him.

She started talking about her son and when they fought he would always call and they would make up. Even if she thought that he was 100 percent at fault she would take 50 percent of the blame. "forgive 70 times 7". All this was a manipulation to make up with Wayne. No he has not called me to say I am sorry or anything else. Wayne calls my step mom because she thinks he is gorgeous, the best looking one in the family. He charms her. Now he is playing her to get me to talk to April about seeing his son.

My step mom said that April was vicious and that she was a Psychopath. Can you believe that? I kept my thoughts to myself and let her continue to talk. I didn't reveal what I was thinking, nor made any comments that she could repeat, in or out of context.

I changed the subject to her and how she was feeling and made it through lunch.

Wayne wants to see his son.......this is not over.

More to come, I am sure