Hello.
I've just posted ïs my child safe? hardly anyone understands'.
My son counts the days until it's saturday and he can see his psychopath dad again. All I can do is smile, there is nothing wrong with my son's feelings, but there is with his dad. And I can't tell him and he wouldn't want to hear anyway. His dad is grooming him, all this affection is completely faked.

I wish I were wrong. At least here, at this forum, I don't have to defend myself, explain that I don't nurse grudges etc but am plain serious, a wiser person. Nobodys seems to hear or really take it serious. The childcounsellor is kind and perhaps believes me, but whatever the truth, as long as the kid is happy I & everyone should lay low and not CREATE problems by behaving unnatural, creating fear or suspicion. Of course i agree with all that. I want to be a fearless, loving and levelheaded mom.

His dad is conning everyone and using his girlfriend for it. Suddenly he is the ideal father. No one I talk to understands the extent of his condition, that he cannot change into a fatherfigure, amend his ways. (Except the other woman with whom he cheated me, who is now my best friend, she has been abused and used as bad as me.) I find that I can't speak, to counsellors, to my child. And I really do know what I'm talking about and my intentions are 100% good. I WISH I were mistaken, being wrong about this would be worth being completely ridiculous! At least on this site you know what I'm talking about and I don't have to be defensive all the time.

I'm very worried about my child, there is nothing I can do but sit back and watch, the dad has as much rights as i have concerning the clild and i really don't expect the investigation to show anything. The dad even convinced the police of his innocence!

Does anybody have experience with having to let your child go to it's psychopath parent, being unable to warn and protect your child, the way the people who are supposed to help, counsellors, don't understand EVEN if they are perfectly willing to believe you.

Hi Wendy, welcome to the forum.

I was just checking out some nanny cams for anyone who can install one to gather evidence. It is important to know the laws of your state/country. From what I understand most states do not allow recording on the phone without the other parties permission. There are a few states that do. I am quite sure that a hidden camera can be used in the home.

I checked out Amazon and searched under "nanny cam" and spy cameras. It would be wonderful to plant something to get further evidence, no idea if a person can put one in someone elses home but even in your own home it would document what the child is really saying about visits with "dad" and can't clam up with authorities.

Di

Thank you.
Yes, that would be wonderful. There is no way I could do anything like that outside of my own home. My mom brought me a dictaphone, which I wanted to use before the courtruling, when the dad took the kid from school for lunch once a week and I stubbornly stuck along with them on these outings. (Our son was always happy when I turned up again.) But I couldn't use it very well. And at home I just don't know when he'll decide to say anything. But I did turn the telephone speaker on every time he spoke to his dad that way.

Hi, you would want the comments to be in the entire conversation so there is no indication anything was done to prod or influence what your son says. For example if you were to only record your son with those specific comments the entire conversation needs to be there also. I would give it a try, I suspect any tapes required wouldn't be expensive and maybe the ones you can log onto your computer to view and hear could be easily stored. I would check into the ones you can see from your PC and how they get stored.

Di

Outside of the home could be illegal but in your home to my knowledge isn't.

that's true, the context is just as important that way.

Hi, check out www.ebay.com search for spy cam, hidden camera, spy camera, wireless nanny cam

Try to not buy directly from anyone located in China.

They have models that have great reception through walls etc. and feed into a VCR. I would think wireless would work the best but check it out, the prices weren't high and with ebay you have a guarantee return policy. You can also ask the seller questions and they usually answer quite quickly.

There are cable extensions that can hook up to other TV's.

Di

In context he would have nothing to dispute, now there are experts who can verify you didn't tamper with the tape. I would gather up more information than just a time or two to show the pattern and I would think your son would have some different comments each time. Does your son talk about the visit with his father when he returns home or does it come out gradually?

Check the laws where you live, I believe inside your own home is fair game.

Just another thought, if you hook up the cam to record a at TV connection, put it in your bedroom and get your son another TV so he won't notice anything. If he sees you have a VCR or whatever he would naturally be more interested in watching cable or someting like DirecTV.

Another question to find out is if he is speaking to his father on the phone in your home would that be legal even though you would only be recording info in your home, here are some links to review:

However, an appellate court has ruled that using a hidden video camera in a private place does violate the statute. California v. Gibbons, 215 Cal. App. 3d 1204 (Cal. Ct. App. 1989). It is not a crime to take notes during a conversation or later summarize or disclose one’s recollection of a communication. People v. Wyrick, 77 Cal. App. 3d 903 (Cal. Ct. App. 1978).

State by State Rulings
http://www.rcfp.org/taping/states.htmlhttp://www.google.com/search?q=Can+we+Tape&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

Google:
Conversation recording laws
Can we tape

From what I gather it is okay in the home, however they suggest you contact the local Attorney General for definite guidelines.

If you son communicates via the Internet a wireless device to network the computers might work as an additional plan.

Di

Thanks alot. Right now I wouldn't be able to 'catch" anything that way, though I might in future. On some days he speaks 1 sentence about his dad- and that can be anywhere, on his bike to school. Or else on the toilet. I never ask questions, he hates that. He won't be had by indirect roundabout questions either and only replies with 'Ï don't know'. He only gives what he considers innocent facts and by now understands that those sexual facts aren't innocent. At the time I tried questioning him a few times about that (telling him that nice secrets are nice to keep, but sad ones make you sadder, because I'm his mom I have to help, that's what I'm there for etc. etc.) but he acted upset, cornered, insisting angrily that IT was too difficult to talk about and admitting only that he had a nice secret with dad and also once that his dad told him not to talk about it. (His dad often made me and his other friend feel exclusively loved by insisting on secrecy.)

The only thing, practically, I've been able to do is alert everybody involved. My son had his counselling intake completed before the weekly visits to his dad, the counselling itself started at the same time as these weekly visits. I've asked his teacher whether he seems to be happy, she thought so, and would she please be watchful if she sees him start to behave differently. When he came back the weekend before last and behaved odd (slapped me in my face as soon as he got back from his dad) I wrote everything he said and did as accurately and factually as I could and handed it over to his counseller before his next visit. I'll do that each time.

He is such a sensitive little guy! Before the courtruling I went to lunch with him and his dad every week. I was always careful not to speak about any details in our life, because I'd get it back later twisted into some offence later - and I was surprised to find that our son was even better at skirting around everything, so good he must have understood. In general, he does not speak about anything sad and tries so hard to prove that his tears are caused by the wind and that he's never sad, that I really don't believe him. I can see very well what he feels, even though I don't know waht causes these feelings.

The way he informs me without compromising his loyalty is so sweet! Today he said our house is a chickenpen. That's his dad's word for my house, he knows this house from years ago. Then he told me the name of a friend from his class who said so. And then he asked me to guess which of the things he said wasn't true. I told him it was true that somebody said that but it was'nt true that that friend of his said that because that friend dosn't think up such things. He was very pleased that I got it right. There is only one person in my son's life who would use that word that way.

Wendy,

What does your child's counselor say about the allegations of sexual abuse? How are these being addressed? It is such a potentially damaging situation. Is this a private counselor? One with experience in the area of sexual abuse or psychopathy? Is it only a school counselor? I am concerned that you are not being taken seriously?

What does the counselor say about your son denying his feelings of sadness? Is that being addressed in therapy? My daughter has also denied her tears when she was sad over her father. She told me it was her allergies. She also told me that her eyes were watering because I was combing out the tangles in her hair.

I wish I could tell you otherwise, but our children have indeed picked up many of their behaviors from us. Do you acknowledge your own sadness and disappointment about your ex? Do you acknowledge it in front of your son? Painting a pretty picture of their dad, and denying your own feelings in front of our kids, does nothing to help them. This I know, because I did it for years.

How did the psychopath get off the hook in regards to the investigation with the authorities? Please continue to post so that we may try offer you more suggestions and advice.

Starry,

You don't need to feel panicky if a previous post has been removed. The moderator for this forum will pull posts and put them under a different topic, or thread. She does this so that the various topics are properly organized and easier to access. If some of your posts (or mine) have been removed, they will most likely reappear under a different thread within a few days. Try to be patient as their is only one moderator for this forum. She does her best to keep things organized, and that requires some fine tuning from time to time. Rest assured, if there is ever an issue with the content of your posts, she will contact you directly to let you know about it. Also, if you have a specific question for her, you should be able to email her directly through the forum. She is usually good about responding quickly.

My reply to you regarding housework will likely be up again soon under a different thread. In the meantime, you can check out some of my other posts. You can do this by pulling up any of my posts, then in the upper left hand corner, left click on my name that is underlined in blue. A small box will pop up under my name with four options. Click on the bottom option, which is "View Posts." It should list all of my posts, in order by the date. It puts ten posts on the screen at a time, after the first ten you will need to click to the next page for the next set of ten.

I have found that there are certain people who you may "click" with better on the forum than others. This sense of connection might be based on similarities amons our experiences with the psychopaths, similarities in the way we recover from emotional pain, or perhaps just a common way of thinking. Anyways, if you found that particular post that I sent you informative or inspirational, than maybe you should check out some of the other stuff I posted about. All of it will not apply to your particular situation, but perhaps you can find some comfort or understanding in some of my other posts.

Good luck on your healing journey! Be patient, and breathe slowly....

Dear Violet,

Thank you. It gives me confidence to find understanding here. It helps. It also is hard to bear to read about so much suffering.

I wonder how old your daughter is and how often she sees her dad and what happens and how you find out and how you cope!!!! Also I hope to learn from your experience, because although no situation is identical, psychopathic people are so weirdly similar, as if it is exactly the basis for individuality that is lacking.

Before I kept my son home, he saw his dad alone and had mixed feelings about him, either enthousiastic or negative. Once he came back very strange: as if he had turned to stone. That was very, very scary. Now he always sees the dad with his dad's girlfriend (court order) and her company and care disguises the dad's deficiencies. He is now always very enthousiastic.

I never speak about his dad myself, but I do respond to what my son tells about his dad in a happy positive way, just to validate his experience and feelings. I never mention anything but neutral facts about his dad. So I don't say anything good or bad about him. Twice my personal experience came leaking through. Once my son said his dad is so sweet. I said: oh???? This week, to cut a long story short, my son said his dad knows so much about everything and I know nothing. I couldn't help lauging and replying, amazed: do you really think so? He got mad at me for ridiculing his admiration. That was not my intention.

It sounds incredible, but all the pain and suffering has vanished completely. I was in this relationship for ten years before I moved in with him. I did so because, however disastrous it all was, I thought a child has to live with his dad. Once we shared a house, I found myself trapped in every way. I was so desperate and the home situation was so bad that the child wasn't doing well either. My responsibility towards my child is what made getting out an inescapable undebatable necessity. I had to act, seek help, even if I didn't understand yet what was the matter. All the pain went into that effort. And at the very end I finally understood what was really the matter. That made the pain irrelevant: I also realised that nothing the dad had done was personal. He never acted as an individual and never considered me one. No content at all was ever shared. I could only consider my own personal history and all the thoughts that had made me prone to such a relationship. But realising his nature did freak me out with fear. Somehow that realisation was harder to bear than personal suffering (I never expected much else). Anyway, I got out and am on a different planet now. I've been forced to change inside and out these last two years more than my whole lifetime together. Life is very good again and my son is doing well! Since a few months, even the fear has died down. When I see the dad, I only feel a strong quiet disgust. I wouldn't still be thinking about him if it weren't for my son. It's weird how so many years of intense feelings can vanish into irrelevance.

Sexual abuse is hard to prove, so I wasn't surprised the AMK found that my suspicions could not be confirmed. My contactperson at the AMK tried hard enough, though. The police went further, saying my accusations were false and they declared the dad innocent. That really shouldn't be surprising either, considering how outrageoously and convincingly he lies!

Because of this, the counsellors (not private) didn't take me and my son on because of sexual abuse primarily. They took us on to examinate the child's wellbeing and to give me didactic support. One lady gives him gametherapy (I don't know the English word). When I googled her, I did find that she is specialised in sexual abuse cases, so they do take it into consideration. The other lady cooperates with her by giving me parenting advice. So much time passes between applying for help and getting it, by now I don't have mentionable parenting problems anymore. One learns every single day and gains over time.

In applying for help I made it perfectly clear right from the start that I'm worried about my child's safety because his dad is a psychopath. The ladies both put a strict boundary there: the dad's personality is not the issue and not something they can change either. I understand that. They don't want to (Dutch expression) burn their fingers on it either. It's only me saying so, too. Their concern is the child himself. Well, they are right, of course.

But the dad's personality IS one of the main determining circumstances in my son's life and I really wondered whether they take it serious and whether they understand this condition. Yesterday I told the lady: My son says he can't wait till it's saturday, because his dad misses him so much. I didn't intend to challenge her professionality. She is so smart and nice, I didn't want to offend her. But I asked her: do you know what those words mean when the dad says that? I asked her: do you have any personal experience in your life with a psychopath? I surprised her with my question and I know I was improperly intrusive, but I really wanted to find out how much she understands. She said; well, no, I don't have, but I know what it is. She seemed to regret her admission. I told her I asked, because people who have not had personal experience seldom realize the full implications. She said I must still have alot of unresolved issues with the dad to bring him up each time. That is completely wrong, the father is of no interest to me at all, the KID is! When she mentioned the kid missing the dad and the dad missing the kid, I knew she didn't understand that it means absolutely nothing when the dad says he misses his child and that he is incapable of missing any person in the normal sense. Reading about it is not the same as realising it. (Sorry, poor language). You have to have your face crushed in the shit before you realise that a person can be so. Otherwise, it is unimaginable. It should be! I don't have a personal point to prove to her, I'm just trying to point out something important to her. She did acknowledge that the child's trust might be abused later on and she said she would take the dad's personality in consideration as one of the child's circumstances. Then, to her very visible relief, I promised never to bring up the dad again.

Wendy,

My daughter is about the same age as your son. She has not seen her father in over four months. An investigation through the court revealed his extensive criminal history. The judge ordered very limited supervised visitation through an independent agency. psychopath never even showed up at the hearing to object to the ruling. Nor has he contacted the agency to make an appointment to see her. My daughter is saddened over this, as would be expected. I have no contact with him. After ten years, I have learned to respect the "NO CONTACT!" rule when it comes to a psychopath.

Do I want to call him and say, "when are you going to see her?, don't you care?, please just see your little girl!" Yes, of course I want to do that. It breaks my heart as much as it breaks hers. But there is no such thing as logical reasoning with a psychopath. The truth about who he is, what he makes as his priorities, those are the truths that I am helping my daughter accept. Tracking him down and begging him to be a father, I will not do that anymore. I did that for long enough.

When she was randomly visiting him, he did not spend quality time with her. He always had a girlfriend(s)or his buddies around her. Like yourself, I initially found comfort that the girlfriends were there, that she wasn't alone with him. But when it came down to it, there is no safe situation involving him. His history of violence and abuse put her in danger of witnessing any of his outbursts. When I decided to stop minimizing this danger, the court investigated, and eventually backed me up.

How did I find out what happened when she visited? She was usually rather quiet and not too chatty about how the visits went. Eventually, through therapy, I learned that this "good guy daddy" thing that I was encouraging was not the way to go. I slowly opened up to her (in child-appropriate terms and language) about the true nature of her father. I didn't have to speak badly about him in order to be honest with her.

She opened up to me like the gate had just been opened to a flood. She told me about many, many details that she had never mentioned before. She was relieved, it was healing. It was as if she thought, "finally, mom is not pretending everything is ok, her and I are on the same side, and I can tell her everything."

We are currently about to begin counseling for her. It won't take away the pain of having a psychopath for a parent. Hopefully, it will help her deal with the feelings of devastation and disappointment in the most healthy of ways. Hopefully, she will be able to express all of these feelings in a way that promotes the most healing.

How do I cope? One day at a time. I am depressed. I have been since the time I "fell in love" with this man, ten years ago. Anti-depressants help. Counseling helps too. Going to church helps. As time goes on, it does get better. For years, I indulged in alcohol to help numb my pain. I was fortunate enough to realize that the drinking was only making the depression worse. Currently, I am sober and trying to heal from this pain once and for all.

I no longer make excuses for him or try to portray a good image of him to my family. Honesty helps. More people respect me for my honesty about the entire situation. Most everybody knew what an ass he was all along. I was only lying to myself and to my daughter when I tried to maintain the "good daddy" image. This psychopath has without a doubt, been the biggest disappointment in my life. Devastation on a level that only other victims of psychopath's can relate to.

Hi Wendy and Violet,
I have spent hours over the last few days reading all these stories and (happily) they are no longer having that "OMG, that's my life" crushing blow to me. I just spent a week of HELL in the realization that the love of my life, my psychopath, IS the monster I secretly suspected he was. I have been in depression for oh, actually I'm not even sure . . . . 15 months? . . . . 3 years? It has been severe for 3 months - disabling, in fact. And I have always been a very high functioning, organized, sensible individual. I don't think there has been a single emotion I HAVEN'T felt in the past several months. Aside from being women in need of love, we have the guilt we bear for any pain that either has, is, or will affect our children.
First, I would insure documenting EVERYTHING relating to the psychopath to get him the heck away from the kids. EVERYTHING. Now, I have been divorced 12 years (tho I have 30 years in total with the psychopath in my life - ug) and at the time of the divorce, I got full custody. Wasn't easy, but I got an advocate (cost me 1K, but worth it!). He couldn't manipulate at all once she got involved and I was able to work around the system repeatedly trying to go the 'neutral' route. Let's face it: they don't understand at all what we live with and through and the whole concept of a either a psychopath or a psychopath is very rarely seen/acknowledged by the courts. Get help. You MUST PROVE it, at all costs. Remember that it will pay off in the end. I never knew about this disorder until very recently, but I knew something was awfully wrong with him even then.
I was so wrong (and live with my guilt) that I allowed him to be re-introduced to my boys 8 years ago. Biggest mistake I ever made. I did it bcuz the oldest one asked for the chance to meet and know who is dad was for a Christmas present. I know, I know. What an idiot I was to think he would be able to interact in a positive way for the sake of his only sons. He didn't and now, they hate him. I mean they really despise the man. But I too did the thing where I tried to push him on them - tried to walk him through HOW to be a dad. As if any parent should have to be instructed on how to be one, right? Oh, but did I push him down everyone's throats - painted the picture of deceit for MY loved ones (out of shame and embarassment really) just as he wove his webs of deceit.

Violet, I have had my kids in therapy for over a year now and the one thing I CAN recommend is to make sure whomever the counselor is, understands that you don't want that 'neutral' therapy where 'we don't speak ill of daddy'. Kids today live in a world of instant gratification. Not necessarily because of our parenting, but because of society and the generation/technology. They assimilate information in real time: instant messaging, skype, tape and watch video's instantly, etc.... They actually WANT the independence of knowing what they need to know and having the ability to process it themselves. What I mean by this is: after the repore is established, which is absolutely the 1st priority, and once the child is freely contributing to the therapy, honesty is the best foundation - age dependent of course. Kids today don't like to have stuff kept from them by our protective natures. If the child is old enough to handle the info (and only you would know that), is good to share it with them, even if in pieces.

As I have said, my kids are 14 and 15 and it took months for them to really start to open up - months. They always knew 'daddy' wasn't 'right' but the counselor tip-toed around daddy subject matter and would say things like "its understandable you are angry about .....". Well, after the past two weeks, my son came in my room a few days ago and advised me he knows I know something is up regarding his dad and not anything with the jail/child support issues. He had an idea and came right out and asked me 'so, do you know something I don't know? Do you know what is his problem? Is it something that will make you know that he is a lost cause, like me and (his brother) already know?". I was honest in saying that I had just received the clinical assessment of him from the Dept of Corrections a couple weeks ago and I explained a little bit about what I knew. I did not want to use the 'path' terms because hey, he can access the net as easily as I and I was hoping to insure we could discuss as a group in therapy first. I always try to remember that they will always see themselves as 1/2 daddy, so I am cautious to not attribute negative to anything that might be genetic, you know? To my surprise, my son started laughing and said to me 'so you mean they are FINALLY realizing he's a Psycho?"! I asked if he knew the implications of that word and he smiled, looked at me and said "yup, do you?". Shocked again. Turns out he said that he WISHED the counselor would have entertained a little more discussion on 'what I think is wrong with my dad" or 'what I have experienced with my dad that makes me feel like maybe there is something wrong with me'. My son says that everytime he would try to discuss the anxiety or issues he was angry about relative to his dad, it seemed the discussion was very esoteric, as if to avoid discussing any negatives about their father. I can see doing that in normal situations, but when the psychopath parent is clearly far off the normal scale, I think validation that what they have experienced is atypical and the perception of negative aspects is reassurring?

In my son's own words, instead of hearing
"I understand that you feel . . . or it is okay to feel . . . " I would rather have been offerred what normal alternatives exist for the crazy event I just shared with the counselor - then I would know I could trust my instincts/my thoughts and better yet, have an idea of what I should do when I grow up and am a parent. Dad always made me feel like I didn't know what I was talking about or was always discounting what I thought/felt."

He also stated that the counselor always trying to be positive about the other parent made him feel like the counselor was [quote] just as deceitful and evasive as his dad, the psychopath himself.

BTW: my psychopath has 5 kids, 4 diff women and MANY terminated pregnancies that I know of (after 10, I lost count). He owes me $91K or $94K in child support and owes the others anywhere's from $25K - $40K. Trust me, I'll never see a dime. Thinking (and secretly, without shame, hoping) he takes his last breath incarcerated
I know, I have just been bombarded with a whole lotta info in a very short time here - sorry if this is too long.
-Dreama

Hi Dreama

Just wanted to chip in and say thank you for sharing your journey. It's been really helpful for me, as the daughter of one.

Part of my wishes that my mum could have warned me about him. But I can see where she was at, and I don't feel any anger towards her for that. We are both just as much victims (and survivors) in different ways.

Thank you.

Starry,
Thank you for your response.
I like reading yours as well
Those little pieces of 'food for the soul' are just what the Dr. orders some days when one feels the way I have/do.
Your mom is blessed that you don't harbor resentments towards her and it speaks volumes of the beauty in your being
More likely than not, in a very broad sense, she may be like me in that we just didn't 'get it' until so much time had passed that the damage was done. Its the proverbial "If I knew then what I know now . . . .", right? For the psychopath's partner, that euphemism is rarely considered lighthearted in introspection. Just the opposite in fact.

Moving forward, which absolutely MUST be done in order to leave the ugliness behind, can be disabling - depending on one's circumstances. Don't get me wrong, I have never been one to quit and I still believe there still exists a 'fighter' in me that fully understands miracles CAN happen. (And a miracle is exactly what it will take to even ease my family's burdons right now) But I have a strong enough faith to believe if I just hang on, and allow myself to be open, and TRY to do as much AS I CAN every day, and just keep loving my kids, He will show me the way. This site, for example, is just what I need some days to validate that I am not alone, many before me have made their way through and I will too. Days like today, I read on this site for 30 min or so and I get a 'pep talk' out of it (smiling here). Then, just as I will do in a minute, I close the laptop, retire for the evening and I fantasize about when 'our day' will be here: I imagine how wonderful it will be when it is not like it is now and instead of having good day here and there, we have only a bad day here and there, when we can all spend days with each other without any crisis' and nobody is screaming, crying, putting out some fire (literally some days - shrug) or being hurtful. Ahhhhhhh! My goal is to take my boys back to (location removed) and spend a week in the deep snow sledding, throwing snowballs, (they can) snowboard, have hot chocolate or latte's in the evening and well, just be happy and appreciative of each other. We live(removed location) now, so you can appreciate that we all LOVE the snow (hee-hee).

I, like you, find this site a respite for the mending heart. I am not even hurt or angry (anymore) over the psychopath.
Last week I gave him the ultimate 'kick to the curb' and right away, I felt 10 years younger and able to breathe a bit better. I won't even allow myself to fear him because he has gotten enough of me.
Done
Gone
Been there and done that
Riddance
If I wasn't such a nice Catholic girl, I'd raise my middle finger.
[. . . . . . eeeks I just saw that middle finger of mine up! Well, what can a girl do? Must be a subconscious reflex: Thought of psychopath enters her head and . . . yup . . . there it goes again . . . . middle finger flying up there proud like a flag . . . . . (wink) . . if I don't laugh, I'll cry . . . (wink)

I'm still in the 'aftermath' stage.
Not sure how long you have been distanced from your psychopath dad, or if you even are or if you're in the same kind of place?
But I already see a miracle in you: you are NOT of that mind and have a beautiful soul.
I hope that gives you measurable peace.
It does me.
Its those small miracles I look for and try to embrace everyday.

I am not in that excruciatingly painful place anymore - when the 'reality' of what he was hit me followed by the lie of what was my decades long relationship with him. Guess it is truly PTSD?
When I start feeling too bad, I just tell myself that ANY pain I feel is better than being UNABLE to feel - and if I can feel pain, then I can feel happiness and I want it/deserve it - it WILL come.


Yeah, I guess getting it out IS cathartic?
(smile)
If you are willing to share any insight into what it feels like or how it feels being the child of a psychopath, I would be interested. I admit I can't relate to having any understanding of such by which to better relate with my kids and how they must be feeling. Any insight or advice would be appreciated?
Thanks and Take good care

Dear Violet,
What made your daughter finally open up and share with you? At what point did she lose blind faith in her dad, hope and expectation? How does a child of 6 lose that faith in a parent? It is so crazy and unbearable to me to have to think so: if my son's faith gets shattered, that is the greatest pain, exactly what I want to protect him from. But as long as he blindly admires his dad, he is in danger. There is no nice way for him.
HOW do you explain her dad's nature to her honestly, so she understands nothing is her fault, etc.etc.

Dear Dreama,
How did your boys somehow know their dad wasn't quite right before they met him again? If their dad has a criminal record, I guess they nust have heard some of it. They were older than my son when they finally got to meet their dad. I'd hope those few extra years would have made them less vulnerable when they met him. Also, having some knowledge of some abnormality in his character might have helped them. But still, they too were hurt and it has taken some time for them to come clear with you. Thank GOD they see he's disturbed, before he has crushed their selfconfidence completely.

Dear Starry, your father is a psychopath? Can you help me to understand my child and what could lie ahead of him? How could your mom have warned you?

My question is: at what point does a child's blind faith and loyalty and so complete vulnerability, turn to disillusion? At what point does the disillusion with him/herself turn into disillusion with the dad? At what point does your child, do your children, understand that soemthing is wrong with the dad, NOT with theirselves?

I KNOW and WE ALL KNOW here how this process of manipulation by a psychopath works, how such a person gradually reduces you. And yes, I'm sorry to say, but I have never found anyone without personal experience able to understand this process. Or understand how you can fall victim to this while you are, by all outward appearances, intelligent and achieving.
My friend, who was his other girlfriend while I was with him (he had many, I mean the other steady one, he called her 'my wallet' and that was how he used her)gave me an article about the techniques of emotional manipulation employed by loverboys and sectleaders and it was stunningly, exactly recognisable. (He even did often mention being a sectleader as an ideal.)

Yes, counsellors tiptoe around this. It is humanly incorrect to accept such a truth about a human being, right? It is against their personal AND professional ethic, it seems. But that means they will only act once the child is damaged already.

My son's dad has no criminal record, except as a minor (substance abuse). He is not physically violent. In Holland they are quite keen on domestic violence and verbal abuse counts just as much. I have, in the very last stage of the relationship, once called the police because of it. That ended all direct verbal abuse (leaving enough room for other methods of pulling the carpet from under my feet, another Dutch expression), because he is scared of the police and he abused me with quiet calculation, never because of uncontrollable emotion.
There is no record of his dealing in xtc of gbh - and probably he has quit that, xtc isn't that easy in Holland anymore. And no record of his longstanding income fraud. My friend and I have not denounced him about these things. We don't seek revenge, only desire to share as little karma with him as possible. Also, I wanted to keep some tool of pressure if things get really out of hand.
A psychiatrist once suggested to him "you could be a psychopath". That was a suggestion, not a diagnosis. (And I took it for a crazy joke!) The dad (who was not yet a dad at the time) went to the psychiatrist because he wanted a recipe for antidepressive medication. He drank heavily (always has) and smoked crazy amounts of cannabis, but wanted more stimulants, so he first tried Zoloft. That didn't make him feel better, only made him aggressive. So then he turned to the psychiatrist for another type of antidepressive medication. He went to see the psychiatrist about 7 times, often took me and/or the other woman along, taped the sessions and laughed a great deal about it. He called the psychiatrist a 'kabouter', which is a munchkin or how do you call these ugly little fairytale people. I contacted this same psychiatrist after I left, especially because this man had turned to childpsychology, and he was very kind, telling me he regretted being unable to help me because he was terminally ill.
Taking Robert Hare's advice, I have always refrained from telling the dad he is a psychopath. And I guess there is no way this, THE essential fact, can play a role in court. I guess no one can be forced to take a personality test. I'd gladly take one myself too, if that would make it possible. It is quite fair, of course, to judge a person by his actions and not his character. His legally criminal actions are petty, not overt. He is quite careful. Even if they are known, they do not prove psychopathy.

Because I want to make my son's life as happy as possible, I refuse to worry. I want to be a strong confident joyous mother. So I don't go around troubled and worried. But just now the dad wanted him on the phone. My son turned 7 today. I heard their conversation: every word the dad says is an outrageous lie, all the "I love you"s. My son's is so overjoyed and happy and overflowing with love. Worse: that is exactly the dad's intention. Before, the dad was callously indifferent, but now it suddenly serves his purpose to have his son completely dependant on him. I refuse to worry, but when I hear this I am in plain a g o n y. My son's confidence is being abused right in front of me.
Yes, honesty, yes! Just yesterday, I realised that my ambition in life has dwindled to this: to live and act truthfully for the dignity of others and myself. But how can I be honest to my son? Yes, I do refuse to put a positive image on his father. I do not ever embellish. But neither can I say anything negative: my son is fiercely protective of his image of his dad. I noticed when I once asked my son worried questions about how his dad treats him. So how am I going to be honest and instruct him, if he refuses to hear?
It look like my son has to be hurt badly before he will listen to me or before anybody else will listen to me.

The court has ordered an investigation by the Raad van Kinderbescherming, Council for Childprotection. Up till now, sexual abuse has been considered a false claim by the police and the claim is considered inconclusive by the AMK. But my reports on my son's previous sexual behaviour are still too obvious to pass by. This council is the top authority, they can order further investigation by police and AMK. I don't expect any proof to come up for the sexual abuse. But at least this council can't turn away from my concern as counsellors do.
Almost two weeks aqo I received a letter form the council, telling me they will contact me for an appointment.
I want to tell them that the dad is a psychopath and that it means he is unfit as a parent in all essential things: he abuses trust, he can not see fear or sadness, he can not do caregiving. I'll try to convey this on a material, not an abstract level.
I hope to open their eyes to his completely distubed nature by pointing out simple issues that they can try:
try to get him to describe emotion, to get him to describe his emotional reactions to situations (he has no words)
try to see how he deals with responsibility (it is always everybody else's fault and he is a victim)
keep him talking on his own (his speech is an incoherent paste of borrowed phrases, full of contradictions).
try to get him to describe values, how he values people in general (hatred!) and the individuals with whom he has a relationship (he is at a loss to describe anything at all) and anything of beauty (nothing has intrinsic value or emotional content).
I hope they understand that the point is not that he is disturbed in itself, but because of the parasitic nature of his disorder, it means he damages other people. He can ONLY maintain relationships by damaging others in the deepest way possible.

This is my situation now. ANY ADVICE IS WELCOME. About my child, how to help and protect him. Because you have been through what lies ahead of me. Or my son (Starry). About being heard, understood by authorities. About court etc., though Dutch law will be different on many points perhaps.

Just a comment, I would avoid using the word Psychopath, there is a strong possibility you will not be heard. No one here gets heard by family and friends and the term Psychopath might shut them out. What I have observed is by the time the victim is seeking help they can and rightfully are hysterical and emotional, then here comes the cool character Mr. Psychopath. It makes it easier for them to pin the problem on you. Frankly it would be hard for me to count the many victims who got the blind eye from the courts and help because the emotional state they are in. This is the fight for your child you need to win over these people. Be prepared with a list so rambling won't take you off course. I would even practice how you are going to present your case and how you will answer questions they will probably have.

Di

Yes, that´s right. The psychopath-word scares everyone off. Up till now I haven´t read the council´s information well nor the questions prepared by court for the council. I wanted to speak the truth, which is all I have to offer, and leave the rest up to them. But now I´ve changed my mind, thank you for that. Better know where they are starting from. Try to keep it all strictly factual and avoid abstractions.
Also, I have decided, when the council people come visiting me, to take a lot of time to be silent, instead of reacting desperately, talking a mile a minute. If there is anything to be really assertive about, it´s about taking ALL the time I need to be clear and truthful. Thank you, it´s bedtime for me now, and tomorrow I´ll start preparing well.

Yes Di, Perfect!
I had to finally do just that . . . . stop . . . . breathe . . calm myself down . . . . write down what I would say in an upcoming session and then practiced w/my mother. After a few 'rehearsals', there has been much success in getting support.

Wendy,
I apologize for the confusion in my statement. When I say my boys always knew something wasn't quite right with him, I meant they knew from the day they met him. They had no negative prior info to base any belief of him on. Before they had met him again, in the years of his absence, I would tell them their dad loved them very much. Just as a co-dependent does, I did. I assurred them he probably even missed and thought of them. I told them that the reason he never surfaced was because he didn't like or love me and was angry with me so that's why he stayed away. They would ask why and I would always say "I don't know. Maybe someday there will be an answer, but today I don't have one". In truth, I had no idea how exactly it came to be that HE was pee'od with ME throughout the divorce and afterwards. After all, it was HE that walked out on us? Go figure. I never divulged anything negative about him because I had learned in a court mandated 'parenting post divorce' class how children see themselves as half of each parent and could attribute/internalize anything negative you say about the ex to themself.

They learned of his criminal history when they heard him bragging about it one day to a friend. He didn't know it at the time, but they were underneath the bed listening to everything. You know how kids are. Of course, he denied it to them when they brought it up afterwards. The situation quickly got off what they had heard and onto their punishment for eavesdropping. Years later, my oldest figured out how to look up histories via a school assignment on the internet regarding public records. He found that 'criminal history' button. Yeah, that was one crappy week.

As I type this, I am giggling because you know how kids don't lie, right? Our sons did keep him on his toes quite a bit those last couple years with him. They weren't around him for 7 years and then all of a sudden were. So when he'd blatantly lie, they would be like "Uh-oh, you're lying! I'm tellin". It had gotten to the point that my youngest used to be in public with us and you'd hear and see him do this: "don't worry, I got this on my own" and you'd see him take his hand and cover his mouth.
- - - gotta love kids, huh? (smile)

Hope this helps and clarifies?

yes, that´s such a funny sweet relief, such a deliciously comical revenge! your kids are GREAT!

I have jost got a mail from my son's counsellor that they don't consider it necessary to continue treatment. I'm very upset. Nobody listens and nobody will act until the damage already has been done. I wish it were just me suffering abuse. that;s even better than watching my kid and being unable to help. to warn him.
I just phoned the psychiatrist whom the dad went to see long ago. This very kind insightful man is now deceased, his wife told me. She gave me the name and number of the doctor/psychiatrist who now has all his files. At least I can talk to a psychiatrist instead of a psychologist and I hope he can advise me. I also made an extra long appointment with my huisarts, gp? the doctor you see first for everything and who refers you, don't know the english word. He is kind too, never defensive, admits his ignorance, he is honest and helpful. So that gives some hope.
It is so hard to accept the ignorance of courts and counsellors of the TRULY criminal-minded and their victims people who need their help most of all. Another Dutch expression: shouting, crying out in a empty desert.
Just what can we do about this ignorance?
Thank you for listening, understanding, supporting me, thank you, thank you.

Yes, if only we could figure out what to do.

Rely on the court system? No. The psychopath's are masters at getting around that, and we haven't been involved in the court system, so we won't win there. And they probably love fooling the counselors.

I'm just thinking here. In the case of the children, what is the motive of the psychopath? We know its not love or any genuine concern for the well-being of the child. It is something that the psychopath gets from it.

I'm pretty sure in the case of my grandchild, he had her as a bargaining tool (or blackmail tool) to get what he wants from his parents and from us. She keeps us connected to him in just the way he wants. He is the type that doesn't want a whole lot - the lazy psychopath type. So, it doesn't take much to keep him happy. I'm still wondering what will cause him to lose interest and move on. Through experience so far, we've figured out that he loves causing drama. So, we try to not react to things and when he is around to be laid back. We don't always succeed, because I can see now that he keeps working at it until he hits a cord that will cause someone to be upset. And, with our granddaughter, we don't ask if she can come over, we let our daughter ask if she's coming over. If we were to ask, it would show that it is what we want, and he would come up with a reason she couldn't come.

In the case of another family member of ours, her children make her look good, like the perfect Mom. They are always dressed up cute in expensive clothes. They are sweet and well-behaved. But in private they are reduced to tears daily, left alone, and who knows what else.

In your case, is he trying to hurt you by being with your son? Or maybe he also wants to look good, like the perfect, loving father. In one article I read, the psychopath wanted the kids just to upset his ex, because she didn't want them to be with him. So, she started getting all dressed up, like she was going out, when he was to pick up the children. Which then made it look like he was helping her by taking them so that she could go out and have fun. He soon lost interest when his motivation was gone. Is the interaction with the counselors and courts giving him the drama and the challenge he wants? Maybe he enjoys fooling everyone. Maybe if it all stopped, he would get bored and move on.

Dreama recently suggested, "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer". It just dawned on me that could mean to concentrate more on what motives the psychopath, than to enlighten those that can't see it. (I'm thinking aloud again here - and applying this to myself).

I think you have been doing so many things right. Keep it up!

Wendy,

Try to remember that many of life's burdens are actually blessings in disguise. Try not to be upset. I see a few positive things here regarding the letter you just received:

1) Despite the psychopath dad, your child is well rounded and well adjusted. You are doing such an excellent job as his mother, that despite the negative influence of his dad, your child is considered mentally healthy, by a professional.

2) Since this particular psychologist was not validating your concerns, she was not the right match for you and your son. IT WAS TIME to switch anyway. Discontinuing treatment with this person was a necessary step to keep moving in the right direction. To move forward and find somebody new, somebody who acknowledges your concerns. Somebody who might be THE RIGHT MATCH to maximize all the benefits that counseling has to offer. " When one door closes, another door opens."

You are doing everything that you can to help your son. Give yourself a pat on the back for that. You are not turning the other cheek and just hoping for the best. You are rolling up your sleeves and taking an active role in the prevention of serious abuse. Trust that you will connect with the right professional on this journey.

Trust that the same power which brought your precious son in to your life, will be the same power that guides and strengthens you, helping you make good decisions to guide and protect him. We have to trust and believe in the power of this presence (religious if it applies to you, or, not otherwise specified if it doesn't.) There is power in truth and goodness out there. We have to believe in it. If we don't, than we believe in evil. If we believe in evil, than we believe in psychopath's. Our energy is transfered in to our beliefs. By believing in something, we are strengthing the energy of its existence.

I believe that you are a strong smart woman. I believe that you are an excellent mother who puts her child first. I believe that you are going to raise a smart, confident son who will be able to handle everything that life sends his way.

Well, you make me cry with happy relief I admit, though I might sound over the top. I really hadn't looked at it that way!!!!!!! Well, thank you! i was upset all day, but getting steady again.

Yes, indeed, it all comes down to trust, trust is the whole issue. Building trust again.

You have dealt with this so much longer - but I can't imagine how you bear it: your daughters, granddaughter! it is very painful to read. I wish i could be as uplifting for you as you are to me but I don't know how.

That's funny, the story about the dressing up!
Luckily, motivation is very simple and straightforward with a psychopath, no ambivalence, plain self-serving.
In my case, he is also the lazy type, despises effort, seeks thrills (never enough, never satisfactory).
The indifference which first crushed me later turned out to be a blessing. He isn't out to bother me, he couldn't care less, Í've been replaced. He abused me when I was with him in many different ways, but now he's got a new one.
He is very, very scared of authority and the investigation and has started a whole new perfect-daddy act and is grooming his son now. It works because of the girlfriend.
Before, he tried to get me back, kept the girlfriend secret to his son, so my son was alone with him. My son didn't like having to stay in bed till 11 in the morning. The dad gave him several excuses for that. In this case I permitted myself honesty and told my son: Those reasons aren't true, daddy just doesn't want to get out of bed. Oh, so thats it! he replied, not upset at all. He also kept bringing his son back earlier and earlier.
His thing is mainly other people's money. Kinky sex, too. Drink and drugs. And total control of other people as suppliers of just about everything, because he can't do anything on his own.

Hi concerned, you are very wise for taking this approach, you could spend evey waking hour to try to convince others what he really is and unfortunately it would be time you could be planning. We all know what the others will think, eventually sooner than later their impression will be that you must have lost some screws along the way.

Information is where your power will be.

I would suggest to consider the next time your daughter is there and does some housework or some of the things you have mentioned before to take the high road, your frustration must be intense, who wouldn't be. If you will help her with day care that is a wise move to get your grand daughter out of his clutches full time. You have every right to blow your stack but that path may keep pushing her back to him since she probably in some way sees him as her protector when she returns to him after a confrontation.

I would be hard pressed to think he hasn't been quite ugly toward her. He is chipping away at her self esteem and fears.

You have a tough road ahead of yourself for sure but I have strong faith that you and your husband will prevail and get your daughter and her child back with you. I truly admire your strenght and courage to turn this ship around and get your family all together.

She is young and scared, it will be hard and frustrating. You might consider that you are a stage actress playing a role that your expressions and actions will determine the outcome of the play. I am only guessing but I think you do hold the key to getting her back. I also guess in her own way by doing some chores etc. that possibly it is her way of taking baby steps to come back home. If she thinks that ocming home will be a peaceful escape from what is probably an ugly time with him, I think she will come to you and your husband. You are her safety net, he is her road to hell.

I would suggest as part of your strategy to see if you can put your finger on how the confrontations with your daughter get started, is it frustration, something that gets said, there must be some triggers to look at. Planning to approach this from a better understanding of him, that is an excellent step. Perhaps trying to get others to understand reinforces your pain and drains your energy. They just don't get it and will probably never validate your frustrations.

Di