Dear Violet,

Thank you. It gives me confidence to find understanding here. It helps. It also is hard to bear to read about so much suffering.

I wonder how old your daughter is and how often she sees her dad and what happens and how you find out and how you cope!!!! Also I hope to learn from your experience, because although no situation is identical, psychopathic people are so weirdly similar, as if it is exactly the basis for individuality that is lacking.

Before I kept my son home, he saw his dad alone and had mixed feelings about him, either enthousiastic or negative. Once he came back very strange: as if he had turned to stone. That was very, very scary. Now he always sees the dad with his dad's girlfriend (court order) and her company and care disguises the dad's deficiencies. He is now always very enthousiastic.

I never speak about his dad myself, but I do respond to what my son tells about his dad in a happy positive way, just to validate his experience and feelings. I never mention anything but neutral facts about his dad. So I don't say anything good or bad about him. Twice my personal experience came leaking through. Once my son said his dad is so sweet. I said: oh???? This week, to cut a long story short, my son said his dad knows so much about everything and I know nothing. I couldn't help lauging and replying, amazed: do you really think so? He got mad at me for ridiculing his admiration. That was not my intention.

It sounds incredible, but all the pain and suffering has vanished completely. I was in this relationship for ten years before I moved in with him. I did so because, however disastrous it all was, I thought a child has to live with his dad. Once we shared a house, I found myself trapped in every way. I was so desperate and the home situation was so bad that the child wasn't doing well either. My responsibility towards my child is what made getting out an inescapable undebatable necessity. I had to act, seek help, even if I didn't understand yet what was the matter. All the pain went into that effort. And at the very end I finally understood what was really the matter. That made the pain irrelevant: I also realised that nothing the dad had done was personal. He never acted as an individual and never considered me one. No content at all was ever shared. I could only consider my own personal history and all the thoughts that had made me prone to such a relationship. But realising his nature did freak me out with fear. Somehow that realisation was harder to bear than personal suffering (I never expected much else). Anyway, I got out and am on a different planet now. I've been forced to change inside and out these last two years more than my whole lifetime together. Life is very good again and my son is doing well! Since a few months, even the fear has died down. When I see the dad, I only feel a strong quiet disgust. I wouldn't still be thinking about him if it weren't for my son. It's weird how so many years of intense feelings can vanish into irrelevance.

Sexual abuse is hard to prove, so I wasn't surprised the AMK found that my suspicions could not be confirmed. My contactperson at the AMK tried hard enough, though. The police went further, saying my accusations were false and they declared the dad innocent. That really shouldn't be surprising either, considering how outrageoously and convincingly he lies!

Because of this, the counsellors (not private) didn't take me and my son on because of sexual abuse primarily. They took us on to examinate the child's wellbeing and to give me didactic support. One lady gives him gametherapy (I don't know the English word). When I googled her, I did find that she is specialised in sexual abuse cases, so they do take it into consideration. The other lady cooperates with her by giving me parenting advice. So much time passes between applying for help and getting it, by now I don't have mentionable parenting problems anymore. One learns every single day and gains over time.

In applying for help I made it perfectly clear right from the start that I'm worried about my child's safety because his dad is a psychopath. The ladies both put a strict boundary there: the dad's personality is not the issue and not something they can change either. I understand that. They don't want to (Dutch expression) burn their fingers on it either. It's only me saying so, too. Their concern is the child himself. Well, they are right, of course.

But the dad's personality IS one of the main determining circumstances in my son's life and I really wondered whether they take it serious and whether they understand this condition. Yesterday I told the lady: My son says he can't wait till it's saturday, because his dad misses him so much. I didn't intend to challenge her professionality. She is so smart and nice, I didn't want to offend her. But I asked her: do you know what those words mean when the dad says that? I asked her: do you have any personal experience in your life with a psychopath? I surprised her with my question and I know I was improperly intrusive, but I really wanted to find out how much she understands. She said; well, no, I don't have, but I know what it is. She seemed to regret her admission. I told her I asked, because people who have not had personal experience seldom realize the full implications. She said I must still have alot of unresolved issues with the dad to bring him up each time. That is completely wrong, the father is of no interest to me at all, the KID is! When she mentioned the kid missing the dad and the dad missing the kid, I knew she didn't understand that it means absolutely nothing when the dad says he misses his child and that he is incapable of missing any person in the normal sense. Reading about it is not the same as realising it. (Sorry, poor language). You have to have your face crushed in the shit before you realise that a person can be so. Otherwise, it is unimaginable. It should be! I don't have a personal point to prove to her, I'm just trying to point out something important to her. She did acknowledge that the child's trust might be abused later on and she said she would take the dad's personality in consideration as one of the child's circumstances. Then, to her very visible relief, I promised never to bring up the dad again.

Wendy,

My daughter is about the same age as your son. She has not seen her father in over four months. An investigation through the court revealed his extensive criminal history. The judge ordered very limited supervised visitation through an independent agency. psychopath never even showed up at the hearing to object to the ruling. Nor has he contacted the agency to make an appointment to see her. My daughter is saddened over this, as would be expected. I have no contact with him. After ten years, I have learned to respect the "NO CONTACT!" rule when it comes to a psychopath.

Do I want to call him and say, "when are you going to see her?, don't you care?, please just see your little girl!" Yes, of course I want to do that. It breaks my heart as much as it breaks hers. But there is no such thing as logical reasoning with a psychopath. The truth about who he is, what he makes as his priorities, those are the truths that I am helping my daughter accept. Tracking him down and begging him to be a father, I will not do that anymore. I did that for long enough.

When she was randomly visiting him, he did not spend quality time with her. He always had a girlfriend(s)or his buddies around her. Like yourself, I initially found comfort that the girlfriends were there, that she wasn't alone with him. But when it came down to it, there is no safe situation involving him. His history of violence and abuse put her in danger of witnessing any of his outbursts. When I decided to stop minimizing this danger, the court investigated, and eventually backed me up.

How did I find out what happened when she visited? She was usually rather quiet and not too chatty about how the visits went. Eventually, through therapy, I learned that this "good guy daddy" thing that I was encouraging was not the way to go. I slowly opened up to her (in child-appropriate terms and language) about the true nature of her father. I didn't have to speak badly about him in order to be honest with her.

She opened up to me like the gate had just been opened to a flood. She told me about many, many details that she had never mentioned before. She was relieved, it was healing. It was as if she thought, "finally, mom is not pretending everything is ok, her and I are on the same side, and I can tell her everything."

We are currently about to begin counseling for her. It won't take away the pain of having a psychopath for a parent. Hopefully, it will help her deal with the feelings of devastation and disappointment in the most healthy of ways. Hopefully, she will be able to express all of these feelings in a way that promotes the most healing.

How do I cope? One day at a time. I am depressed. I have been since the time I "fell in love" with this man, ten years ago. Anti-depressants help. Counseling helps too. Going to church helps. As time goes on, it does get better. For years, I indulged in alcohol to help numb my pain. I was fortunate enough to realize that the drinking was only making the depression worse. Currently, I am sober and trying to heal from this pain once and for all.

I no longer make excuses for him or try to portray a good image of him to my family. Honesty helps. More people respect me for my honesty about the entire situation. Most everybody knew what an ass he was all along. I was only lying to myself and to my daughter when I tried to maintain the "good daddy" image. This psychopath has without a doubt, been the biggest disappointment in my life. Devastation on a level that only other victims of psychopath's can relate to.

Hi Wendy and Violet,
I have spent hours over the last few days reading all these stories and (happily) they are no longer having that "OMG, that's my life" crushing blow to me. I just spent a week of HELL in the realization that the love of my life, my psychopath, IS the monster I secretly suspected he was. I have been in depression for oh, actually I'm not even sure . . . . 15 months? . . . . 3 years? It has been severe for 3 months - disabling, in fact. And I have always been a very high functioning, organized, sensible individual. I don't think there has been a single emotion I HAVEN'T felt in the past several months. Aside from being women in need of love, we have the guilt we bear for any pain that either has, is, or will affect our children.
First, I would insure documenting EVERYTHING relating to the psychopath to get him the heck away from the kids. EVERYTHING. Now, I have been divorced 12 years (tho I have 30 years in total with the psychopath in my life - ug) and at the time of the divorce, I got full custody. Wasn't easy, but I got an advocate (cost me 1K, but worth it!). He couldn't manipulate at all once she got involved and I was able to work around the system repeatedly trying to go the 'neutral' route. Let's face it: they don't understand at all what we live with and through and the whole concept of a either a psychopath or a psychopath is very rarely seen/acknowledged by the courts. Get help. You MUST PROVE it, at all costs. Remember that it will pay off in the end. I never knew about this disorder until very recently, but I knew something was awfully wrong with him even then.
I was so wrong (and live with my guilt) that I allowed him to be re-introduced to my boys 8 years ago. Biggest mistake I ever made. I did it bcuz the oldest one asked for the chance to meet and know who is dad was for a Christmas present. I know, I know. What an idiot I was to think he would be able to interact in a positive way for the sake of his only sons. He didn't and now, they hate him. I mean they really despise the man. But I too did the thing where I tried to push him on them - tried to walk him through HOW to be a dad. As if any parent should have to be instructed on how to be one, right? Oh, but did I push him down everyone's throats - painted the picture of deceit for MY loved ones (out of shame and embarassment really) just as he wove his webs of deceit.

Violet, I have had my kids in therapy for over a year now and the one thing I CAN recommend is to make sure whomever the counselor is, understands that you don't want that 'neutral' therapy where 'we don't speak ill of daddy'. Kids today live in a world of instant gratification. Not necessarily because of our parenting, but because of society and the generation/technology. They assimilate information in real time: instant messaging, skype, tape and watch video's instantly, etc.... They actually WANT the independence of knowing what they need to know and having the ability to process it themselves. What I mean by this is: after the repore is established, which is absolutely the 1st priority, and once the child is freely contributing to the therapy, honesty is the best foundation - age dependent of course. Kids today don't like to have stuff kept from them by our protective natures. If the child is old enough to handle the info (and only you would know that), is good to share it with them, even if in pieces.

As I have said, my kids are 14 and 15 and it took months for them to really start to open up - months. They always knew 'daddy' wasn't 'right' but the counselor tip-toed around daddy subject matter and would say things like "its understandable you are angry about .....". Well, after the past two weeks, my son came in my room a few days ago and advised me he knows I know something is up regarding his dad and not anything with the jail/child support issues. He had an idea and came right out and asked me 'so, do you know something I don't know? Do you know what is his problem? Is it something that will make you know that he is a lost cause, like me and (his brother) already know?". I was honest in saying that I had just received the clinical assessment of him from the Dept of Corrections a couple weeks ago and I explained a little bit about what I knew. I did not want to use the 'path' terms because hey, he can access the net as easily as I and I was hoping to insure we could discuss as a group in therapy first. I always try to remember that they will always see themselves as 1/2 daddy, so I am cautious to not attribute negative to anything that might be genetic, you know? To my surprise, my son started laughing and said to me 'so you mean they are FINALLY realizing he's a Psycho?"! I asked if he knew the implications of that word and he smiled, looked at me and said "yup, do you?". Shocked again. Turns out he said that he WISHED the counselor would have entertained a little more discussion on 'what I think is wrong with my dad" or 'what I have experienced with my dad that makes me feel like maybe there is something wrong with me'. My son says that everytime he would try to discuss the anxiety or issues he was angry about relative to his dad, it seemed the discussion was very esoteric, as if to avoid discussing any negatives about their father. I can see doing that in normal situations, but when the psychopath parent is clearly far off the normal scale, I think validation that what they have experienced is atypical and the perception of negative aspects is reassurring?

In my son's own words, instead of hearing
"I understand that you feel . . . or it is okay to feel . . . " I would rather have been offerred what normal alternatives exist for the crazy event I just shared with the counselor - then I would know I could trust my instincts/my thoughts and better yet, have an idea of what I should do when I grow up and am a parent. Dad always made me feel like I didn't know what I was talking about or was always discounting what I thought/felt."

He also stated that the counselor always trying to be positive about the other parent made him feel like the counselor was [quote] just as deceitful and evasive as his dad, the psychopath himself.

BTW: my psychopath has 5 kids, 4 diff women and MANY terminated pregnancies that I know of (after 10, I lost count). He owes me $91K or $94K in child support and owes the others anywhere's from $25K - $40K. Trust me, I'll never see a dime. Thinking (and secretly, without shame, hoping) he takes his last breath incarcerated
I know, I have just been bombarded with a whole lotta info in a very short time here - sorry if this is too long.
-Dreama

Hi Dreama

Just wanted to chip in and say thank you for sharing your journey. It's been really helpful for me, as the daughter of one.

Part of my wishes that my mum could have warned me about him. But I can see where she was at, and I don't feel any anger towards her for that. We are both just as much victims (and survivors) in different ways.

Thank you.

Starry,
Thank you for your response.
I like reading yours as well
Those little pieces of 'food for the soul' are just what the Dr. orders some days when one feels the way I have/do.
Your mom is blessed that you don't harbor resentments towards her and it speaks volumes of the beauty in your being
More likely than not, in a very broad sense, she may be like me in that we just didn't 'get it' until so much time had passed that the damage was done. Its the proverbial "If I knew then what I know now . . . .", right? For the psychopath's partner, that euphemism is rarely considered lighthearted in introspection. Just the opposite in fact.

Moving forward, which absolutely MUST be done in order to leave the ugliness behind, can be disabling - depending on one's circumstances. Don't get me wrong, I have never been one to quit and I still believe there still exists a 'fighter' in me that fully understands miracles CAN happen. (And a miracle is exactly what it will take to even ease my family's burdons right now) But I have a strong enough faith to believe if I just hang on, and allow myself to be open, and TRY to do as much AS I CAN every day, and just keep loving my kids, He will show me the way. This site, for example, is just what I need some days to validate that I am not alone, many before me have made their way through and I will too. Days like today, I read on this site for 30 min or so and I get a 'pep talk' out of it (smiling here). Then, just as I will do in a minute, I close the laptop, retire for the evening and I fantasize about when 'our day' will be here: I imagine how wonderful it will be when it is not like it is now and instead of having good day here and there, we have only a bad day here and there, when we can all spend days with each other without any crisis' and nobody is screaming, crying, putting out some fire (literally some days - shrug) or being hurtful. Ahhhhhhh! My goal is to take my boys back to (location removed) and spend a week in the deep snow sledding, throwing snowballs, (they can) snowboard, have hot chocolate or latte's in the evening and well, just be happy and appreciative of each other. We live(removed location) now, so you can appreciate that we all LOVE the snow (hee-hee).

I, like you, find this site a respite for the mending heart. I am not even hurt or angry (anymore) over the psychopath.
Last week I gave him the ultimate 'kick to the curb' and right away, I felt 10 years younger and able to breathe a bit better. I won't even allow myself to fear him because he has gotten enough of me.
Done
Gone
Been there and done that
Riddance
If I wasn't such a nice Catholic girl, I'd raise my middle finger.
[. . . . . . eeeks I just saw that middle finger of mine up! Well, what can a girl do? Must be a subconscious reflex: Thought of psychopath enters her head and . . . yup . . . there it goes again . . . . middle finger flying up there proud like a flag . . . . . (wink) . . if I don't laugh, I'll cry . . . (wink)

I'm still in the 'aftermath' stage.
Not sure how long you have been distanced from your psychopath dad, or if you even are or if you're in the same kind of place?
But I already see a miracle in you: you are NOT of that mind and have a beautiful soul.
I hope that gives you measurable peace.
It does me.
Its those small miracles I look for and try to embrace everyday.

I am not in that excruciatingly painful place anymore - when the 'reality' of what he was hit me followed by the lie of what was my decades long relationship with him. Guess it is truly PTSD?
When I start feeling too bad, I just tell myself that ANY pain I feel is better than being UNABLE to feel - and if I can feel pain, then I can feel happiness and I want it/deserve it - it WILL come.


Yeah, I guess getting it out IS cathartic?
(smile)
If you are willing to share any insight into what it feels like or how it feels being the child of a psychopath, I would be interested. I admit I can't relate to having any understanding of such by which to better relate with my kids and how they must be feeling. Any insight or advice would be appreciated?
Thanks and Take good care

Dear Violet,
What made your daughter finally open up and share with you? At what point did she lose blind faith in her dad, hope and expectation? How does a child of 6 lose that faith in a parent? It is so crazy and unbearable to me to have to think so: if my son's faith gets shattered, that is the greatest pain, exactly what I want to protect him from. But as long as he blindly admires his dad, he is in danger. There is no nice way for him.
HOW do you explain her dad's nature to her honestly, so she understands nothing is her fault, etc.etc.

Dear Dreama,
How did your boys somehow know their dad wasn't quite right before they met him again? If their dad has a criminal record, I guess they nust have heard some of it. They were older than my son when they finally got to meet their dad. I'd hope those few extra years would have made them less vulnerable when they met him. Also, having some knowledge of some abnormality in his character might have helped them. But still, they too were hurt and it has taken some time for them to come clear with you. Thank GOD they see he's disturbed, before he has crushed their selfconfidence completely.

Dear Starry, your father is a psychopath? Can you help me to understand my child and what could lie ahead of him? How could your mom have warned you?

My question is: at what point does a child's blind faith and loyalty and so complete vulnerability, turn to disillusion? At what point does the disillusion with him/herself turn into disillusion with the dad? At what point does your child, do your children, understand that soemthing is wrong with the dad, NOT with theirselves?

I KNOW and WE ALL KNOW here how this process of manipulation by a psychopath works, how such a person gradually reduces you. And yes, I'm sorry to say, but I have never found anyone without personal experience able to understand this process. Or understand how you can fall victim to this while you are, by all outward appearances, intelligent and achieving.
My friend, who was his other girlfriend while I was with him (he had many, I mean the other steady one, he called her 'my wallet' and that was how he used her)gave me an article about the techniques of emotional manipulation employed by loverboys and sectleaders and it was stunningly, exactly recognisable. (He even did often mention being a sectleader as an ideal.)

Yes, counsellors tiptoe around this. It is humanly incorrect to accept such a truth about a human being, right? It is against their personal AND professional ethic, it seems. But that means they will only act once the child is damaged already.

My son's dad has no criminal record, except as a minor (substance abuse). He is not physically violent. In Holland they are quite keen on domestic violence and verbal abuse counts just as much. I have, in the very last stage of the relationship, once called the police because of it. That ended all direct verbal abuse (leaving enough room for other methods of pulling the carpet from under my feet, another Dutch expression), because he is scared of the police and he abused me with quiet calculation, never because of uncontrollable emotion.
There is no record of his dealing in xtc of gbh - and probably he has quit that, xtc isn't that easy in Holland anymore. And no record of his longstanding income fraud. My friend and I have not denounced him about these things. We don't seek revenge, only desire to share as little karma with him as possible. Also, I wanted to keep some tool of pressure if things get really out of hand.
A psychiatrist once suggested to him "you could be a psychopath". That was a suggestion, not a diagnosis. (And I took it for a crazy joke!) The dad (who was not yet a dad at the time) went to the psychiatrist because he wanted a recipe for antidepressive medication. He drank heavily (always has) and smoked crazy amounts of cannabis, but wanted more stimulants, so he first tried Zoloft. That didn't make him feel better, only made him aggressive. So then he turned to the psychiatrist for another type of antidepressive medication. He went to see the psychiatrist about 7 times, often took me and/or the other woman along, taped the sessions and laughed a great deal about it. He called the psychiatrist a 'kabouter', which is a munchkin or how do you call these ugly little fairytale people. I contacted this same psychiatrist after I left, especially because this man had turned to childpsychology, and he was very kind, telling me he regretted being unable to help me because he was terminally ill.
Taking Robert Hare's advice, I have always refrained from telling the dad he is a psychopath. And I guess there is no way this, THE essential fact, can play a role in court. I guess no one can be forced to take a personality test. I'd gladly take one myself too, if that would make it possible. It is quite fair, of course, to judge a person by his actions and not his character. His legally criminal actions are petty, not overt. He is quite careful. Even if they are known, they do not prove psychopathy.

Because I want to make my son's life as happy as possible, I refuse to worry. I want to be a strong confident joyous mother. So I don't go around troubled and worried. But just now the dad wanted him on the phone. My son turned 7 today. I heard their conversation: every word the dad says is an outrageous lie, all the "I love you"s. My son's is so overjoyed and happy and overflowing with love. Worse: that is exactly the dad's intention. Before, the dad was callously indifferent, but now it suddenly serves his purpose to have his son completely dependant on him. I refuse to worry, but when I hear this I am in plain a g o n y. My son's confidence is being abused right in front of me.
Yes, honesty, yes! Just yesterday, I realised that my ambition in life has dwindled to this: to live and act truthfully for the dignity of others and myself. But how can I be honest to my son? Yes, I do refuse to put a positive image on his father. I do not ever embellish. But neither can I say anything negative: my son is fiercely protective of his image of his dad. I noticed when I once asked my son worried questions about how his dad treats him. So how am I going to be honest and instruct him, if he refuses to hear?
It look like my son has to be hurt badly before he will listen to me or before anybody else will listen to me.

The court has ordered an investigation by the Raad van Kinderbescherming, Council for Childprotection. Up till now, sexual abuse has been considered a false claim by the police and the claim is considered inconclusive by the AMK. But my reports on my son's previous sexual behaviour are still too obvious to pass by. This council is the top authority, they can order further investigation by police and AMK. I don't expect any proof to come up for the sexual abuse. But at least this council can't turn away from my concern as counsellors do.
Almost two weeks aqo I received a letter form the council, telling me they will contact me for an appointment.
I want to tell them that the dad is a psychopath and that it means he is unfit as a parent in all essential things: he abuses trust, he can not see fear or sadness, he can not do caregiving. I'll try to convey this on a material, not an abstract level.
I hope to open their eyes to his completely distubed nature by pointing out simple issues that they can try:
try to get him to describe emotion, to get him to describe his emotional reactions to situations (he has no words)
try to see how he deals with responsibility (it is always everybody else's fault and he is a victim)
keep him talking on his own (his speech is an incoherent paste of borrowed phrases, full of contradictions).
try to get him to describe values, how he values people in general (hatred!) and the individuals with whom he has a relationship (he is at a loss to describe anything at all) and anything of beauty (nothing has intrinsic value or emotional content).
I hope they understand that the point is not that he is disturbed in itself, but because of the parasitic nature of his disorder, it means he damages other people. He can ONLY maintain relationships by damaging others in the deepest way possible.

This is my situation now. ANY ADVICE IS WELCOME. About my child, how to help and protect him. Because you have been through what lies ahead of me. Or my son (Starry). About being heard, understood by authorities. About court etc., though Dutch law will be different on many points perhaps.

Just a comment, I would avoid using the word Psychopath, there is a strong possibility you will not be heard. No one here gets heard by family and friends and the term Psychopath might shut them out. What I have observed is by the time the victim is seeking help they can and rightfully are hysterical and emotional, then here comes the cool character Mr. Psychopath. It makes it easier for them to pin the problem on you. Frankly it would be hard for me to count the many victims who got the blind eye from the courts and help because the emotional state they are in. This is the fight for your child you need to win over these people. Be prepared with a list so rambling won't take you off course. I would even practice how you are going to present your case and how you will answer questions they will probably have.

Di

Yes, that´s right. The psychopath-word scares everyone off. Up till now I haven´t read the council´s information well nor the questions prepared by court for the council. I wanted to speak the truth, which is all I have to offer, and leave the rest up to them. But now I´ve changed my mind, thank you for that. Better know where they are starting from. Try to keep it all strictly factual and avoid abstractions.
Also, I have decided, when the council people come visiting me, to take a lot of time to be silent, instead of reacting desperately, talking a mile a minute. If there is anything to be really assertive about, it´s about taking ALL the time I need to be clear and truthful. Thank you, it´s bedtime for me now, and tomorrow I´ll start preparing well.

Yes Di, Perfect!
I had to finally do just that . . . . stop . . . . breathe . . calm myself down . . . . write down what I would say in an upcoming session and then practiced w/my mother. After a few 'rehearsals', there has been much success in getting support.

Wendy,
I apologize for the confusion in my statement. When I say my boys always knew something wasn't quite right with him, I meant they knew from the day they met him. They had no negative prior info to base any belief of him on. Before they had met him again, in the years of his absence, I would tell them their dad loved them very much. Just as a co-dependent does, I did. I assurred them he probably even missed and thought of them. I told them that the reason he never surfaced was because he didn't like or love me and was angry with me so that's why he stayed away. They would ask why and I would always say "I don't know. Maybe someday there will be an answer, but today I don't have one". In truth, I had no idea how exactly it came to be that HE was pee'od with ME throughout the divorce and afterwards. After all, it was HE that walked out on us? Go figure. I never divulged anything negative about him because I had learned in a court mandated 'parenting post divorce' class how children see themselves as half of each parent and could attribute/internalize anything negative you say about the ex to themself.

They learned of his criminal history when they heard him bragging about it one day to a friend. He didn't know it at the time, but they were underneath the bed listening to everything. You know how kids are. Of course, he denied it to them when they brought it up afterwards. The situation quickly got off what they had heard and onto their punishment for eavesdropping. Years later, my oldest figured out how to look up histories via a school assignment on the internet regarding public records. He found that 'criminal history' button. Yeah, that was one crappy week.

As I type this, I am giggling because you know how kids don't lie, right? Our sons did keep him on his toes quite a bit those last couple years with him. They weren't around him for 7 years and then all of a sudden were. So when he'd blatantly lie, they would be like "Uh-oh, you're lying! I'm tellin". It had gotten to the point that my youngest used to be in public with us and you'd hear and see him do this: "don't worry, I got this on my own" and you'd see him take his hand and cover his mouth.
- - - gotta love kids, huh? (smile)

Hope this helps and clarifies?

yes, that´s such a funny sweet relief, such a deliciously comical revenge! your kids are GREAT!