Hi Dianne E.
Don´t worry I have had no contact with him since May, and I intend to carry on that way. Whenever I have any doubts I read on this site.
Ekko

Hi Diane, I totally agree... but for the grace of God go I (again!)... It CAN happen again, but as long as we stay strong by checking in here and remembering, learning and staying in touch with those who understand... we have a much better chance of staying P-free! (PREEDOM!!!) Love, Tiasa xoxoxox

When I think about the red flags with this man...I cringe! What the heck was wrong with me.

I had one good relationship about 8 years ago.....with a good guy....we were together for 6 years...and things just ended up not working out...but no drama...no trauma...just the usual break up pain and hurt which u get over with no scars. However, I was single for the next several years until I met my ex (the possible P). I dated on and off but nothing serious. I didnt need a man...and wasn't willing to go through the compromise and effort with someone unless they were TOTALLY worth it. So, I dated...had fun...but didnt take anything too seriously. Was involved with some 'moochers' who i probably gave to more than I should have but they definitely werent P's...and I never felt 'conned' or anything...no trauma....etc.

Then...I meet my ex...and it was like NO MATTER HOW RED AND BIG that flag was...I just looked right past it and kept moving forward with him. I'm still dumbfounded as to why.

He had told me early on about his PAST drug addiction (little did i know that it was PRESENT as well)...I noticed him to be a bit of a 'freak' in bed...but I didn't mind...it was just for fun after all...not taking it too seriously (supposedly) so I experimented and went along with things willingly at first. But regardless of the fact that these should have been absolute DEAL BREAKERS....we had so much fun...and he was soooo charming....and he made me feel sooooooooooo good...and laugh so much...that I very easily overlooked everything I shouldnt have. And I remember thinking to myself "you shouldnt be getting involved in this"...and then responding to myself with "but...no big deal...its just for fun...if/when it gets complicated...walk away"

Then little by little I noticed those flags popping up all over the place - the attempts to alienate u from others, the turning everything on u, the finding the most minute flaw in u and blowing it up to make it seem enormous, creating insecurities in urself that u never had, and the list goes on...In no time I felt ugly (and not to toot my own horn but I'm 20 times better looking than he is)...I felt worthless...I felt smaller than him. Yet...when you look at the facts he offered NOTHING...had nothing...I had EVERYTHING...including an amazing network of friends and ultra supportive family of which he has neither...and somehow I felt less than him....go figure.

But again...in no time he got me to question, doubt, and feel bad about everything about me...and then I got pregnant...and it just got worse after that. Then when I finally started to put my foot down...he walked away. He's incapable of being close or intimite with someone. I see that now. But there were so many things I saw back then...from day one...that I just overlooked...and overlooked...and overlooked....until I was a shell of a person...and it has taken me a lot of time and work and relapses to get to the place I am now...and I still struggle...but I am strong again...and convinced that I will be fine...and convinced that he probably never will be.

Anyway...I know now that I need to stay away from men 'that need'...its my weakness...I want to fix...I want to help...because I feel blessed to have so much in my life and want to share that...but the reality is that those in most need...usually...NOT ALWAYS...are in that position...still because they dont know how to do for themselves...and arent interested in learning...but rather in manipulating and conning it out of others. So...lesson learned. I'm sure there are a million other type of guys i should stay away from...but if I start with steering clear of anyone who doesnt have their lives TOGETHER...OR anyone who SWEEPS ME OFF MY FEET AND GIVES ME THAT HIGH FEELING FROM THE START...I think I'm in a better position than I was when I met this guy.

I'm lucky to still be standing.

I'm lucky to have found you guys.

Best of luck to ALL of us.

Vanessa

Wow, Ekko,

Those are all really good questions, and things we all struggle with. I just came to understand that the "candy" the P offered was not normal nor really desireable. It is just another face of manipulation.

Normal people don't get inside you that fast and offer you your dreams on a silver platter. Normal people take time to get to know, and to get to know you.

So, charm is a huge red flag and that makes me put on the brakes right away. With just a little bit of time, those cracks become very evident because P's can't handle frustration. Remember that impulse control problems and emotional immaturity are very much core problems with P's. So, if they think you are one of their easy targets, and you don't jump through their emotional hoops right away, they often become very nasty very early.

So far, with me, when someone tries the over the top charm on me (always a guy looking for easy date material), when I don't fall for the lines, and resist giving them ammunition to manipulate me with, what I find really quickly is that the manipulation becomes very blatant right away.

Underlying all of this is their need to control you, and if charm fails, they then try to guilt trip you and manipulate you with that, and when that fails they go straight to abuse.

I've laughed at how predictable this is.

So, for me at least the key has been, to not fall for the charm, remembering that charm is a "nice" form of manipulation.

Another stop sign for me is a guy that can't take "No," for an answer early on, like within the first minute of meeting. If you say no and they keep pushing until you say yes, even in small things, they will keep pushing until they totally control you.

If you have trouble saying "No," then that is something to work on. It is the best way to keep not only P's out of your life forever, but other abusive and controling people. It is my mantra now. Most of the time I say something like, "No, but thank you for asking." And when I have said no, I don't ever let anyone push me, no matter how "nice" they are about it, into changing it to a "Yes." P's will keep pushing until they understand that your boundaries are solid and good. If they come to understand that they will move on to easier prey. If they control you in small ways, they will later control you in all things.

Practice "No." I do. The other day an adult man made a bee-line for me as I was leaving the grocery store. He was a muscular, good looking young man with a huge smile on his face, but my intuition went off. He said, "Excuse me! Can I ask you for a favor?" I just said, "No," and kept right on walking. I didn't let him engage me at all. Now maybe he was going to ask me for a ride, or for money, and maybe he was completely harmless, but I really don't care. Why would a widely smiling, healthy looking, well dressed young man be asking ME for a FAVOR with my hands full of grocery bags? That one little word might have kept me out of a whole lot of trouble. And it did no harm to anyone.

I know that learning to say no is a tall order for some of us who were taught that we have to be there for everybody and put our own needs last; that we have to be nice; that nice girls always say "Yes" to everyone else's needs. But it is a lie. Healthy people are not there for everyone else. Nice girls do say "No."

I'll give you another example that happened just a few months ago. I attended a party that a girlfriend of mine was holding. While there I met a man who stuck up a conversation with me. He gave me one of his business cards, and asked me to call him. I didn't call him and didn't offer him my phone number. This was just one week after I broke up with my P, and truthfully, I wasn't interested at all in dating at that time, but I was feeling a little emotionally vulnerable, and I'm assuming this guy zeroed in on that.

Two days later I got an email from this guy and in it he didn't tell me where he got my email address, but he did ask me a lot of very personal questions. In the email he told me that he wanted to see me socially, but that he wanted me to answer these questions. Okay, so I was a little flattered by his interest, but I didn't answer his questions, finding the nature of them to be somewhat off-putting. Instead I emailed him back and asked him how he knew my friend.

He emailed me again asking the same questions and telling me that he had told me a lot about himself the night of the party, (none of which I remembered) and that he expected some reciprocity from me. I once again responded by asking him how he knew my friend.

His next reply was a demand that I answer his questions if I expected him to see me socially, and he stated, "If you are looking for a door mat, you need to look somewhere else!" Once again, he didn't answer my question. So, I politely reminded him that he was the one seeking social contact, not me, that I had no obligation to answer any of his questions, that his unwillingness to answer one simple question from me was problematic, and that I had no desire to see him socially. And that was an easy end to what could have otherwise ended up being a very abusive relationship and lots of wasted time.

So, what were the early warning signs, here?

First of all I didn't give him my number, therefore there was no invitation for further contact explicit or otherwise. Yet, he talked my girlfriend into giving him my private email address... So, here is an inability to hear "no," manipulation of a third party to gain information rather than asking me straight out for it face to face, and an emerging pattern of disregard for my wishes and basic disrespect for me as an autonomous human being.

Second, were the intrusive personal questions, with no social preamble or attempt to find out and meet my needs.

Third, was his attempt to coerce me through guilt into answering his questions.

Fourth, was his unwillingness to give me one piece of information that I could easily check the verasity of.

Fifth was his verbally abusive accusation of me treating him as a door mat.

Through it all was his more and more blatant attempts to control me.

Okay, so most P's are more slick than this and can at least pretend to be interested in your needs for a short time, but you will find that even with the most charming P's, if their desires are frustrated they melt down into who they really are.

Diane1969

Hi Vanessa, Great post! You put it VERY well and you sound well on the road to "recovery" from this horrendous experience of being "In LUV" with a P!!! You described almost exactly my experience (except for the fact that I was married when I was "swept off my feet" by a pure, 100% LOSER (drug addict, user (lives with "fat cow" (his words... red flag right there!) that pays for everything, had (has!) no job, no car, no money (unless his "friend" (or someone else he swindled...) gave it to him for doing "chores"...boy did he fly in a RAGE when I called him "chore boy" (before I knew he was a P... and possibly/potentially DANGEROUS!!!) He constantly lied to me (and others!!!)through his crooked, coffee-stained teeth (but somehow I found him irresistably charming, attractive, my "soulmate" and downright gorgeous!!!) I almost lost everything I have worked for and valued my entire life!!!!) ME? Like you said "20 times more attractive" ;-), Have worked full time in very responsible, respectable position(s) for 30 years, married (though that has had it's problems, of course) for 23 years, 2 beautiful children, brand new car, lovely home in great town, friends, family, coworkers who love me, etc.... WHAT WAS I THINKING!?! ONLY those (us) who have been "addicted" to a P can possibly understand. THANK GOD I found these boards and you amazing women (and men!) who have "been there, done that"... I swear I wouldn't have believed it unless I went through it! I am so incredibly grateful to have survived this ordeal... and, yes, it was the lesson of a lifetime! Thank God there is hope for us-- we will survive and thrive... I truly feel sorry for all P's - they are lost souls and can't get better. Stay strong and wise my dear, and KEEP POSTING... we learn from each other! Love, Tiasa XOXOXO

Wow, Diane, you sure spelled out alot of the characteristics of my P. The porn obsession (which I found out about later..I found out he put a hidden camera in the bedroom and put it on a porn website he had...I told him if I find this site I will prosecute him), the pornographic-type mechanical sex, the pathological lying, betrayal after betrayal (bringing other women into my bed when he would housesit for me)with NO remorse. The no remorse, that is what still gets me . I still see this "kind, gentle, sweet" person that he portrayed and to think it was all a facade is mindboggling. How he could keep looking me in the face knowing what he was doing to me! He would actually have tears run down his face when I would confront him with something that wasn't adding up right and he'd say "how could you ever think that of me?" The charm, the compliments, unbelieveable. Even after we broke up and he was confronted with all the lies he told me (by me and others), he continues to lie to cover up those lies. I don't think there is a word of truth that comes out of his mouth. I want to go to another woman I know he is conning and tell her all about what he did to me and for her to be careful, but I don't know if I should. She may go to him and tell him what I said and he'll do something revengeful to me. He is pure evil in an angel's costume.

Dear Jacq: This has been like reading about the JERK I was involved with... almost word for word... He actually had porno videos in the trunk of his car and was "proud" to show me his "collection"... WHA????? But, of course, I saw it as "sexy" and overlooked all the values and self-respect I had my whole life! For what? Charm, compliments, lies, robbery, deceipt, lies, bull, aggrivation, lies, lies, lies. Actually held my head and had me look DIRECTLY in his soul-less eyes and LIED to my face.... Lie, after lie after lie after lie. A devil in an angel's costume? Absolutely. RUN... DON'T WALK away from these creatures from hell. Save your own soul!!! ;-) Keep posting! Love, Tiasa

Tiasa,

I wrote a reply to your last post, but don't see it... I was wondering how you were finally able to stop having feelings for him... I can't seem to do that, even though there are times I feel repulsed by him... and even feel like I hate him... that's a feeling I realized I never really felt before...hate. But part of me feels hate... all the lies... the horrible betrayals... the deliberate pain... the pleasure he derived from causing the pain. But the feelings of hate only last a short time, and then I sink into the despair... that someone I loved turned out to be.. .inhuman. I just find it so hard to accept.

Kathy

My dear (((((((((((((((Kathy)))))))))))) -- (that is a "cyber-hug")... I just read your post to me, and then read a few more you have written. My heart goes out to you because, believe me, I have had the same feelings about "my" P, and I want to answer your question the best I can. I have been sitting at my computer for a while now but the best answer I can come up with is that I have just finally faced that I couldn't possibly "love" someone who has no conscience, no values, no "real" ambition, no respect for good, honest, hard-working human beings, no "true" compassion, no remorse, no honesty... I could go on and on... I REALLY would love to read your story, so when you have the time and strength to post it, I will be able to understand a little better what "stage" you are in your "recovery"... What I've gathered thus far is that he is 50 years old (and you asked if "P's" ever "grow out of it"... My guess would be a flat out NO) I have heard (read) that many P's either end up in jail for a crime they've committed, or, once they lose their looks in old age they become homeless creatures of the night... I'm being a bit dramatic, but I truly could picture "my" P someday walking the streets, unshaven, in big dirty overcoat, pan-handling. Right now he is still very handsome, in good physical shape, well dressed, a wallet full of money... but that is ONLY because he bamboozled his way into some poor woman's bank account, home and heart (especially the heart!...) BUT, someday his looks will fade, the women will see him for what the lying, parasitic, poor excuse for a human he TRULY is and kick his butt to the dark, dank, slimy place he belongs! The other day when I "bumped" into him (was it really a "coincidence"... I think not) was I still physically drawn to him? Yes. Did he still compliment me, praise me, tell me all those sweet things women love to hear? Yes. Did I believe one word that came out of his mouth? No. (except for the few times he told the truth and couldn't look me in the eye). I have found with P's when they are lying they look you straight in the eye, when they are (RARELY!) telling the truth, they look away. (the opposite of Non-P's!!!) My dear, I know it hurts VERY deeply... you felt you FINALLY found the "man of your dreams" your "soul mate" the one who you would grow old with and share life with... I did too. I thank GOD, though, that I found out what he truly was (thanks so much to Di and this board and all the amazing posters on this board!... including YOU!)

I want to respond to your post "Also, I find I just can't hurt him back... my thoughts always go back to his terrible childhood, and I feel so much pain and sorrow for the boy he once was, I cannot hurt the monster he has become. He KNOWS this, and uses it to repeatedly destroy me." PLEASE know this is just a tactic (his TERRIBLE CHILDHOOD!)-- mine used the same one... and, yes, maybe some of it was true (alcoholic parents, neglect, abuse,etc..) think of the millions of wonderful, successful, amazing people who suffered horrendous childhoods and turned it around (Oprah, for one... there are MANY others)... I actually had a "tough" childhood by some comparisons (alcholic father, poverty, etc...) but I think I turned out pretty good (except for my low self-esteem which I am working on!!!... P's tune into women with low self-esteem... they "LOVE" it!... easy targets... they tell us JUST what we want to hear!) ALSO, the way these creeps LIE about everything, how do you KNOW he had a terrible childhood? Where you there? Did you talk to people who witnessed it? I think it's just ONE MORE way to bring out our motherly instincts to "save" these "poor babies"... YUCK! Please, my dear, keep posting and RUN from this P... he will destroy you. I PROMISE there is a warm, supportive, loving, deserving REAL man out there for you someday. Something Diane1969 wrote that really stuck with me about P's being "more addicting than heroin...etc..." (I will find it and post it when I do). It's VERY hard to FACE and BELIEVE that they are not what they seem... but when you do, you will end up being stronger, more self-assured and GRATEFUL that you survived and have a chance at "real love"... Stay strong. Love, Tiasa XOXOX

Tiasa,

Thank you, thank you, for your loving, kind words of support and understanding. (((((((Tiasa))))))))))). You have no idea (well, yes, I suppose you really do) how much they mean to me right now. I read as many of your posts as time allowed today at work (I can only read them...not reply when working). Your true compassion for the others and myself touched me greatly today - My experiences with him the past 3 years have left me in a pit so dark and cold, your empathy was a ray of light and warmth... and hope.

Will post as much as my time and energy permit... for now, just know how much your words and thoughts are appreciated ... :0).

Kathy