That is really something, he is learning the game well. It is so important that you are so informed. I don't know if you are comfortable answering but how much longer until he is of legal age? Does he live close to your home?

It is interesting what psychopaths will say. I am glad the co-worker clearly didn't brush off the comments and let you know. I hope you are making progress getting a new situation, one in the family is a huge load so one at work would be just one too many. Many times they do say directly what they are up to but too often these comments get brushed off.

Di

Right now he is 3 hours away by car in the institution, but when he goes to foster care he will be in the same county. He is only 13 now, so we are 5 years away from freedom. However when he is 16, the courts can just leave him in a group home to age out. Right now, it seems like he is getting better at controlling his behaviors, and at manipulating which makes him harder to keep out of our house. Either that, or the institution is just not reporting all of his dangerous behaviors. At this point, they are probably just only reporting blatant violence and not threats, fits, and things he claims are accidents (his favorite tactic to get away with covert attacks).

Thanks, Dadofrad

I watched the 1950’s version of “The Bad Seed” this weekend and was very impressed. It is not the cheesy 1950s style horror flick, but is actually very well acted, based on a book by the same name, and linked to an actual historical psychopath. It was probably one of the first stories to entertain the notion that behavior problems and psychotic behaviors can be inherited. That debate is actually played out in dialog, but the story irrefutably suggests it is true. Further the young actress played the part to a tea and the dialog is so typical of a psychopath. It shows the series of events where the parent sees behaviors, hears the child’s manipulations, and then finds evidence of the lies and slow realization that this child can fool anyone, but is capable of the worsts types of crimes. It also shows the heartache and conflict with a parent who understands the depravity of their child, yet loves them dearly, and is stuck in a no-win situation. Has anyone seen this? What are your thoughts. Dianne proposes that psychotic children brought up in good homes usually do not commit the horrible murders or abusive crimes, but this story suggests that this may not be true. I pray she is right in my case, but I have my doubts.

As expected, my son is doing so well in his residential program that they no longer see any problems with him and claim they have fixed him. They are ready to release him, and they are even poking their noses into his Educational IEP and suggesting he now go to normal schools. I spoke to them yesterday in conference call and told them about an event where my son said he picked up a fire extinguisher, took it outside and was spraying it around. He said he was put on a disciplinary action, but the institution still claimed he had no significant events in the last month and had no knowledge of that event. These institutions may have good intentions but their manipulated reporting and smug assertions that they know better than the parents, previous therapists, and even the educational institutions are disparaging. Most likely, he will be released to another foster home, where he will be acting out again to the point of needing hospitalized again.

Hi DadofRad,

Thanks for the movie suggestion, will definitely check it out.

I am not 100% sure about these kids raised in better homes will never resort to criminal behavior. I think with the right tools and upbringing they can hide it better and will possibly seek out employment where they can do crimes that might not end up in a prison sentence since we don't seem to be able to punish either good looking, smart or white collar crimes. I also have the jury out. The show Dateline along with many other shows have been around for years and every week they feature a previously "functioning" psychopath without a history of violence who manages to murder their spouse, etc. I can say with confidence that as they breeze through life the destruction to innocent victims will be great.

I think that sometimes I temper my comments to not alarm parents because I also have doubts. Research is limited and like in your case things get brushed under the rug in a way that is actually frightening. I really do however believe the world is becoming more like them (the psychopaths) than the rest of us. It can appear to be a jaded view but it is deep down how I feel when I read the news, look around etc.

I know for a fact that I can not imagine having one of these kids in my life. It is actually horrifying to me. I also can clearly state that I think I can handle a lot but this would be more than likely way beyond anything I could imagine having to do.

The other huge issue that is evident in any victim scenario either with parents, partners, work etc. is the victim is given the short end of the equation and typically not believed or heard. That is something we can only keep plugging along to get voices heard. People need to understand that Ted Bundy isn't the model to put all psychopaths into. The ones like your son are the ones we should be the most concerned about. They may not end up using a knife but they can use a pen or the mind to cause greater harm. I think of it in these ways, a socialized one will knife you in the back and you won't know the knife entered your system until you bleed out in pain, the non-socialized ones like Bundy get you in the front so you know you were had and by whom. The ones who get caught get carted off and out of our lives, the socialized ones have a lifetime to prey on victims.

I don't understand how this place your son is in things that one month of good behavior = success. I am only guessing here but I think he is just getting more clever and can keep his behavior in check of longer each time, does that sound plausible?

Di

Ted Bundy is actually the psychopath that our therapists (who get's him) believes my son is similar to. I don't know if every killer came from a dysfunctional home, but I do know that not every psychopath has aggressive or violent tendencies. Some are just manipulative people who trap and victimize others through their lies. Others as we know are the CEO's who never do anything they can get caught for, but make everyone around them miserable and do not think a moment about destroying a career or reputation of their victim. The combination though of psychotic tendencies with physical violence is what can create the killer. Can they learn to control their aggression or only commit violence where they cannot be caught? Sure, but what to note is the combination of aggression and psychopath.

Here's a question about Hare's work. How is his checklist different from what's in the DSM? Why have his criteria not been adopted by the DSM? I know he has tried to get it published.

This is the 4th institution my son has been in and all of them have minimized his behaviors, not reported significant incidents, initially avoided giving me his behavioral records, and reported at discharge that he had no problems in the last months and he is ready for discharge. After each discharge he has been doing behavior worthy of hospitalization within 2 weeks. I think there are multiple reasons for this:
1) These institutions are greedy and unethical, manipulating records and pushing him through a program in order to appease the insurance companies.
2) They minimize his behaviors and only take into account big events like trying to burn down the facility or sending someone to the hospital.
3) My son may actually do a little better in an institution with a highly structured program and continuous supervision. I don't think he really benefits from the therapy, but he does need the structure and supervision. I believe he actually needs that permanently, but there are no institutions like this where I live who do anything longer term than 6-9 months.

Hi DadofRad.

I think the best measure regardless of what the checklists say is to see if the person operates with a conscience. I have seen many people over the years become confused by relying just on checklists vs. actions and words. Pets is the big one that comes to mind, they will say they didn't think the person was a psychopath because of their expressed love and pet ownership. To that I say the person may be highly socialized and using the pet as a way to gather victims so it is tough. If they are looking for kind and compassionate people as victims then having a pet makes them attractive. I guess what I am saying is there is so much confusion over diagnosis that I just rely on the conscience aspect. That appears to be one thing they all agree upon. The current PCL-R is based on the prison model so that can in itself be tricky to navigate.

I used to visit a RAD discussion forum and read about a few of the so called "healers" of these childrens and well, scam kind of came to mind. The bigger the problem in society the more likely you will find someone selling a cure.

The experts do agree about therapy and it will make a psychopath worse for the rest of us but fit better into society. I think it will likely keep them off death row and prison and just make them a slicker version. I think from what you are running into is the blind thinking that what harm could a child possibly do. Clearly it is very wrong thinking.

What can you do? Is it possible to keep getting him put back in for 6 - 9 months at a time or is there a limit on how often this can happen to be covered? Or is this even covered by services or insurance?

Di

I meant to add. It was so long ago that I read about Ted Bundy but as I recall his mother was a case. In some of these cases you can trace it back to the parent who may have given them the gene. For example I always wondered about Dahlmer's parents who did all the media and book etc. Was it one of them that gave him the gene or did their protective environment have him turn out to appear to be okay when in reality he was far from okay.

Hi DadofRad, I ran across Ted Bundy's final interview on YouTube. He was a victim till the end. I am going to order Ann Rules's story about him because he paints his family as very normal but I recall differently.

It looks to me like he probably got the gene from his grandfather. Bundys family history

In any case this is an interesting view into his denial Ted Bundy's last interview

I have seen this video before even at church. James Dobson was trying demonstrate the dangers of pornography. Of course the psychopath told him exactly what he wanted to hear and deflected the responsibility, blaming media. I do believe porongraphy is dangerous especially for a psychopath but now I see the psychopath in a clearer light. I do know my son is intelligent, but not creative. He cannot really imagine new ways of hurting people, he has to be shown new ways. This is why violent media is so harmful with him. So I still agree with Dobson's conclusions, but I understand why now better.

Yes the current expectation is that my son will continue to go in and out of institutions, hospitals, and foster care homes until he is better or ages out. SSI and Medicade will pay for it, but there has to be continued proof of need and they have a limit of 9 months at a institution, I am told. We will most likely be going over reviews in court every 3 months until someone recommends a long term placement or revokes our parental rights. Either way, it is better than living with him. Our fear is that he learns to control the dangerous outbursts and we no longer have grounds for not taking him back. We have come too far to go back now. Plus even if he is safe he will still make us all miserable.

I just finished Hare's book. He recommends victims find support groups. Other than this site, are you aware of any support group networks for victims or especially parents of psychopaths?

My son has been released now from his fourth residential program. Of course they claim he has had no recent problems and no longer requires these services. The courts and social workers agreed to send him to a local foster home. He is now with an older single foster mother and and another 17 year old foster child who is ready to age out of the system soon. I believe this foster mother will keep me informed and my son and not put up with being fooled. My fear is that he has learned to control himself and we may be pressured to take him back. I know from experience that any control he has is usually short lived. We visited him over the weekend and he was fine, but he usually is on short visits. He was still very consuming, always asking to buy something or go somewhere without any consideration to the needs of the rest of the family.

My family continues to isolate ourselves mostly out of habit and also just because we don't need any one else in our business and finding out our dirty little secret. We are afraid of outsiders judging us. We also just don't have much time.