Cherie,

I wonder, since you ended it, has the outcome been worth it?
I am in awe that you ended it, I wish I had done so myself, had many opportunities and did not. I guess I just knew that all that has happened would happen, it would end up just like it has. That was something I could not cope with. So he ended it and I had to cope with it anyway. My mistake.

As I said earlier, I told him a few weeks before he left that he reminded me of my mother. I had not seen it in the slightest before. I do not believe my mother is a p. She is controlling. How I related the two, I can only think the he loves me, loves me not, loves me thing. As she has done all my life. He just stared at me. 2 weeks later left me. I guess I figured him out. Which is along the lines of what kris has said a little earlier.

Funny though, my mom always liked him a lot. She treated him very, very well. Of course, his outward facade was that of a Saint. Which made me look bad, which made Mom no doubt, pleased. She even blamed me somewhat for him leaving. If only I hadn't done/said this or that.

Well, I am happy that you were able to leave your p. You are much stronger than I and that strength will get you through the aftermath I am certain.

Laura

BonnyR and all,
Since I have somewhat of an analytical and introspective nature, and beause of all the therapy I received years ago in recovering from having a Psychopathic father, I normally look at relationship issues in my life, realize my part in them, and apologize for my behavior. On the other hand, I am assertive and not afraid to speak my mind, albeit with respect. It has not been my nature to tolerate continuous abuse, although I do understand that in normal relationships people say and do regretable things at times. I believe that before I met my Psychopath I was a good communicator, and relatively emotionally healthy, but vulnerable due to extraordinary life circumstances in my life at the time.

This is how I started out in my relationship with my Psychopath. After our early times together, he seemed to have issues with me and he would become very angry and offended. He readily admitted that he was hot tempered and often laughed about it. When he would explain his feelings, he was clear and articulate. His words seem to make sense. I would sincerely apologize, and as part of making amends, would think about what behaviors I needed to change in myself. Very slowly, subtly, his issues became more and more serious and charged with emotion. Some of them were the same issue, different circumstances. I started to really feel like I was not trying hard enough to make necessary changes. It seemed like I was looking at myself with a microscope. His rages became more commonplace. This is hard to explain. It was soooo subtle. Normally anyone raging at me(much different than anger being expressed)would make me wary, uncomfortable, and normally I would not tolerate that behavior. But this was different. Somehow, somewhere along the line I began to feel really bad about me. I felt responsible for his rages. I started questioning more and more about myself. I started apologizing for things that were not my fault at all, but by that time I was so confused and so out of touch, I believed he was right. He was one of the most articulate men I have ever met. His words were smooth, intelligent, reasonable. Afterwards, his words were full of compassion and acceptance and "love". I was brainwashed, big time.

I have found myself again and am no longer living with confusion in a brainwashed state. It took a long time to come back and the price was high to my physical and emotional well being. I will never be the same as I was, but older, wiser, a lot more wary and cynical. I still apologize when I am wrong and make amends. I still look at myself. But since my trust was so deeply wounded. I am still unsure of myself and too wary. I am starting, slowly, to change that.

neverthesame said, "I was brainwashed, big time."

I spoke with a coworker tonight regarding the same. She asked if I had received any "help" i.e. therapy for that? Is there therapists that specialize in this?

Anyway, I remember the p telling me that when he was in the Army, they taught him what to do if captured by the enemy. How to avoid being brainwashed. I would think that they also had to teach him what brainwashing consisted of to be able to teach him how to avoid it. Lucky me, I was brainwashed by an expert.

I know what you mean about looking at yourself, apologizing when needed, deeply wounded trust.

I still apologize when I should, but only then. Sometimes I don't trust my decision to apologize or not. I wonder if I really did or said something truly wrong, or if I was just standing up for myself? Yes, still brainwashed.

Sometimes it helps for me to say to myself, "This is not the p. This person is not a p." Then I ask myself if an apology is warranted. I force my mind to decipher reality from false perception. When I apologize I do it differantly than I did with the p. Instead of saying, "I didn't mean to be such a B, its just that you...." That was a waste of my breath.

Now I say, "I feel bad about....and it (offends me, hurts me, angers me), and I would like to discuss this." They listen, I listen. THEN, if warranted, I apologize. With the p, I was apologizing BEFORE it was even determined that I was at fault.

Laura

BonnyR wrote:

"Instead of apologising I should have packed a bag and hit the road. I yearn for the hurricane of rage from my dear ex wife and her horrible family. Not doing that before my two older kids were born was the biggest act of cowardice of my life."

I really get where you're coming from with this. I sure could have saved myself a lot of mess, too.

Cherie

Yes Cherie,

As you wrote on the other thread, constant rewarding of rotten behaviour was a permanent feature of my son's growing up. At age ten his reading skills were quite poor, so we all agreed that there would be no TV at all during the week when school was on. And the effect was immediate, most noticeable in a reduction of stress. Then I would travel for work for a couple of weeks, and out the window with the rules. Money for everything. A very poor year's performance at school followed by an invitation to visit a relative in an exciting country, far away. I wasn't against it, but felt it had to be done following concessions for next years school performance at least. It had to be discussed. I get called away and its "leaving, on a jet plane" for him. I came home to a fait accompli. (That was a neat one that- we were frankly well off, and the cost was not of the slightest concern to me- just the fact that he had loafed at school, and now got a dream holiday. And I only found out six years later that we had not even paid for the ticket- the relative had, and presumably had been advised that the undersigned would not agree to pay).

Anything, everything funded with no requirement at all for a demonstration of effort, appreciation or (of course) thanks of any kind. All done with my considerable efforts to stop the rubbish. And I said to the woman, that if this train went on, I feared that it would end in jail. And cool as a clam she says maybe that's the best place for him. Her son! Who she is giving all this stuff to- up to this day I might add. She doesn't care at all. And thus my efforts to wise her up over six years were of course wasted, because they were all predicated on a notion that as a mother she had to care as much as I did, but she didn't understand. She did understand, and for her own reasons apparently seeks to destroy him. She's done a cracker of a job.

Well you see Operalover, Between having a foreboding that rotten behaviour will land the guy in jail, and the event actually occurring, there is a fairly unpleasant process called committing a crime. And ordinarily, one might expect such a prospect to be a trifle upsetting to a Mother. One cannot, I think, say humph, best place for him, without betraying that this would ease your mind in as much as it gets him out of your face. That is not my case.

Well, when he was fourteen and we walked together along a river bank, I said that if I was he I would bring our little tent and camp with one or two pals. Like you do, or anyway, like we all did. And he said, perfectly seriously, what if an animal comes? I mean, we don't have grizzlies around here. I guess that that fine spirit has protected him from much that might otherwise have come his way. But, I fear that it will not continue to do so. Needs must when the devil drives, and he does indeed appear to be driving here. Of course, "turning to crime" is a matter of getting caught and prosecuted. I was quite sure a couple of years ago that he was stealing at his work in a sort of junk shop. Someone was, and as he explained his "suspicions" of the identity of the culprit, he sadly caught my eye. A sort of truth passed. But he went on the attack, and tried to bring the union down on the owner for not paying him enough, and got thrown out. I like to think that God still had a handle somewhere on his heart for him to commit that financial suicide. It stopped him at that place, anyway. And then there was the counterfeiting story. Three words, or four, and the thing is clear like crystal. They are so annoying those idiots who don't realise that every trick to cheat has been tried for thousands of years, and wiser people can see their game instantly. Anyway, he's fired from there now. Ordinarily such a guy would pump iron for six months, and go to the Legion. He won't. What he will, I have no notion.

BonnyR,

You said so much on this post. Especially about the employment situations where one would think an arrest might be forthcoming, but only another job termination.

In the case also of my ex p. At a major pop company, he did not turn in required paperwork, was verbally warned. Still did not turn in paperwork. He was stuffing it in his tool box. Finally suspended without pay. Ultimately, he abandoned that job. Literally.

At another position, the p was a school bus mechanic. He also drove a bus when short staffed on drivers. Again, ultimately fired (his claim), for leaving a young boy asleep on the back of the bus. Fired, as opposed to sued by the parents. He even claimed to have driven home without realizing the young boy was asleep on the bus! He was called at home and fired.

Then there was the position he had from June 1998 to June 2001. Hauling fuel. He would be late, not go in, be sick all the time, and eventually, take the tanker truck to payday loan companies and write hot checks and also to convenience stores to buy lottery tickets i.e. gamble. He also took it to the Dog Track. So, here is this big tanker truck, big company, NOT delivering fuel, and no one says anything?

Why? I know why. Because a psychopath is the most charming, smooth talking, naive acting, innocent looking person an employer would want to employ. What I am trying to say is the p causes trouble of some type, illegal or otherwise, at one job. They think, "just a kid," "nice guy, messed up, hate to fire him, have no choice," "will give this person a second chance, will talk to them about this," etc. The problem here is the prior employers do not speak with the present employer who does not speak to the next employer. They all thought it was a "one time" thing. They had not a clue that it is a career of the p to mess up at jobs until they have to quit or do get fired. After termination, by choice or not, they move on, charmingly, convincingly, pleasantly to the next position. Then it starts all over again.

I used to wonder how my ex p could have 10 jobs in 8 years, yet not over 3 weeks between jobs. Somebody would always hire him, regardless of what crime or non-crime he had committed at the previous job. I finally figured out how. Because they did not know he was a psychopath, they felt sorry for him, they determined him to be human and after all, humans make mistakes! I am not certain on this, but I think that a lot of p's gravitate to professions where a background check is not done, where previous employers are not called. In the case of my ex p, he was mostly a truck driver and there are a shortage of those all over the U.S. If you can produce a valid Class A CDL with a clean Motor Vehicle Record, and are breathing, your hired! What crimes will show up on a MVR? None, unless traffic related, and then the p would be smart enough to not apply for truck driving positions!

He even told me that he was kicked out of high school for throwing another student into a locker and the locker caved in. He said his father was given the option to pay for the locker damage and the p be expelled, or the p would be charged with destruction of school property. The p and father took expulsion as opposed to jail. So see? In the face of crime, still got by with it. Given a choice.

The p always has a choice when it comes to crime and wrongdoing. They have the choice to avoid punishment for it. It seems the very people who should be inflicting the punishment are the same one's giving the p the choice.

We see the whole picture, because we are living with them, witnessing it firsthand. The employer sees it only once and does not see a major problem, just a major inconvenience.

Oh, the travesty of it all! That is why they are psychopaths. They know how to ACT, how to PLAY people. They know the "game" and they intend to win. I think they expect to get fired, never jailed. I also think that their inconsistant work histories prove that they are employable, regardless of anything done at a previous job.

Loved your post. Agree with operalover. You are a good man, a good father. It has to be hard to watch this all and just shake your head and wait for the outcome, if there ever is one.

Laura