I think the P & N debate (see my post of same date in the difference between NPD and P thread) is fundamental to this question on whether Ps can cry on the spin of a dime.

I really didn't understand the question because it wasn't immediately obvious to me what a dime is... and I am someone who has visited the US about 15 times in the last 4 years LOL.

But I understand the question now (and its another good question Outsider), I think that Narcissists will cry on the spin of a dime, I suspect that straight Ps do not cry. I have always had a close relationship with my paternal grandmother. She is 89 years old. In the 33 years I have known her, which include the hardship that her only child rejected her for 14 years, I have NEVER seen her shed a tear. Fake tantrums, yes. Tears, no.

I can think of 3 other Ps that are very attached to me, that do not cry. They are so quick to walk away from or intimidate anyone that is making them anxious, they never allow anyone to upset them... I suspect the lack of tears is more to do with Ps being petrified of becoming emotional as I mentioned in another post, but Hare states that some of them have very limited feeling so some might never feel anxious.

On the other hand, my dear brother and darling nephew (6 years) are not Ps, but they are so attention dependent that they can turn the taps on and off whenever it suits them. Both of them also genuinely cry on a grand scale especially when they get hurt or when they hurt others. Crying attracts attention... therefore I hypothesize that N's cry and Ps rarely reveal vulnerability.

Just my 5 cents.

Kind regards

KT

Interesting, BTW, yes, I am sure my mother is BPD as you questioned in an earlier post. KT, I understand from Nan from my original thread that you've been at the board a LONG time. You certainly have a lot of these P's in your life.
I believe these P's can also be layered w/ other mental disorders as well.
But of course the outstanding characteristic is the inability to feel for anyone except themselves. My daughter's father exhibits that to the absolute highest and greatest degree. I am and I imagine will be on the fence for quite a long long while about my sister--- it is seeming that much of her life has been a lie and there were clues to that off and on for many years KT.
Most of my problems stem from my crazy mother, yes for sure. Taking an emotional beating from her since I can recall.
Going back into therapy next week. She is a very cold hard lady esp with towards me.

NEw observation,
watched most of a special on prime time news show last night with Diane Sawyer (sp?) and did not see too much remorse going around in that prison, that's for sure. One woman at the time of the crime was 38 and arranged to have her 18 year old lover (her daughter's boyfriend) shoot her husband AND COLLECTED $100,00.00 life insurance and said it was b/c the husband was sexually molesting her daughters AND HE WAS However, when the 18 year old boyfriend found out that she had ANOTHER BOYFRIEND he turned on her. She is 54 now and cried and remarked "I am just like everyone else."
There were a few stories like that. In the prison in general, you don't see remorse at all. The claim is you can't show it: it shows weakness and that makes you vulnerable in jail which gets you hurt. I saw one that looked sincere. I saw another one, a young white girl with very short hair who was soft spoken and highly intelligent and in for robbery... she had those weird penetrating eyes that contradicted the soft spoken rational words. Anyone else watch this? Di said the stats on P's in prison is 25 to 30%.... for women too?

PSYCHOLOGICAL HARASSMENT

I’m not sure where this message belongs so maybe this thread is as good a place as any.

I’ve read posts about people who have had their reputations ruined because of Ps they encountered spreading false and malicious rumors either at work, among friends/relatives or in a community.

I have mentioned before that I too have experienced this sort of character assassination for many years. I strongly advise anyone who has this happen to them to seek counseling and to inform their GP as soon as possible. There are many people, usually well meaning, but apparently completely ignorant about the effects of what is essentially a form of abuse who may advise you to ignore it, to focus on your goals, to not let it bother you and who may wrongly attribute your concerns with it to ego/weakness/control issues etc. Ironically enough, in my experience anyway, this advice usually comes from individuals who are highly reactionary to even the slightest negative inference about them and that in itself detracts from their credibility. Moreover, the literature that I’ve seen on the subject furthers refutes their assessments.

I mention all of this as a word of caution because it is documented that this sort of psychological harassment has an injurious effect, especially if there is a steady drumbeat of it over time, yet there aren’t the social and legal supports/awareness that exist for victims of physical/sexual abuse, presumably because the effects are relatively subtle though often debilitating. Because of the prevailing ignorance about it, you are just as likely to find people who will wave it away rather than really grasp the deleterious toll it takes on one’s self confidence and self esteem.

In fact I read that psychological abuse is more difficult to erase because it reverberates (both externally and internally I suppose) and you can’t put a salve on it. There is an excellent article on all of this by Sam Vaknin. It may be linked somewhere on this site – it was one of the most helpful that I’ve read since it really captured what the targets of this sort of abuse experience.

Not sure whether I should have started a new thread with this, but....MOVING ON...

I have reached a point where I think that I want to have a healthy relationship at some time in the future. I have not had one yet in my life and I want to have one, firstly because I want to share my life instead of living alone, and I want to have someone to love who will love me back.

I am not ready for this yet as I still have things to sort out in myself but I know that I have come a long way these last 10 months.

I want to be at a stage where I am open to this happening but do not think that it will be easy as I will not accept anyone who is not psychologically healthy or who is an abuser. In the same way, I am not going to let anyone suffer the consequences of taking me on until I am psychologically healthy and recovered. Finding someone may/may not happen, I accept. But to be ready in case I meet someone who could possibly be the one is the important thing I think. I will not accept anything but the best for myself now and would rather stay alone than be in an unhealthy relationship again.

The problem is that, will I put the fence too high that no-one will be able to jump it? Will I be expecting someone to be more healthy than is possible? Are we all unhealthy? Will I reject someone for the slightest sign that they have some issues?

I know that the more i recover, the more I can recognise unhealthiness in others. I do not fear getting entangled with a p again as I would take things so slowly that they would run.

I am arranging therapy to work on the areas I still need help over, and by waiting, I know exactly what they are and have benefitted by not having therapy up till now I think, in order to find myself. The time is right to work on deeper issues which may have been brought up too prematurely for me to handle. I have learnt to find an inner strength that will help me in the future and I know that I will be able to handle things without feeling helpless.

Instead of falling into that hole in the road, I see it now and know how to walk around it. My future fills me with hope. I am excited at the possibilities in life. At last I have come to know myself and can say that it was through p that I got here.

I hope that this gives encouragement to those who have only recently got out.

Mati

Mati
(member)
01/06/05 12:10 AM

To others

sorry I have not been around. I have been seeing p. There is no way that I will consider going back with him, but I still had some stuff to work through which is why I hovered a bit. Part of his mind work on me was to make me believe that it was all my fault and I would still slip into that, I had been so brainwashed by him. I think that he was more dangerous in that he is so covert in his actions and more clever at the victim thing. He is highly intelligent and clever. But I only have to look at the mess I am in and my sons to know the truth. Anyway, these few meetings with him have really helped me to understand his ways better and I'm no longer stuck in trying to understand whether he is indeed a p or an n or some other personality disorder. That does not worry me now. I am not a psychologist. All I need to be sure of is thatI know that he abused me and as my self-esteem rises and I love myself more than him or as least as much, I refuse to have an abuser in my life. I was having mood swings earlier between elation at being free from him, to desperately missing him which have ceased now and my thinking is more steady.

I saw a psychologist for the evaluation interview and even that short time has helped me as he said 'He will not change you know'. He said he will be able to help me and I see him next week. Although he is private and not NHS he has reduced his fee right down so that I can afford it.

One of the things that kept me in the relationship of 22 years was that I had become so dependant on him. I did not think I could manage without him but it is the opposite and I am making new friends now being able to get out to church now, and am finding plenty of kind people who want to help me.

My husband ended the relationship but is talking of us getting back because I think he can see I have moved on. I would not take a step back after coming so far. Our sons have nearly moved out now and he will be left on his own. They want neither of us to visit them and are not disclosing their address which is a good thing in that they want to be away from their father. I am so pleased that he has lost influence with them but I will miss them dreadfully. They are both very screwed up now but they know that they can come to me at any time. They have listened to me and accept that their father has a personality disorder and that they have had a disfunctional childhood and they need help. They see that he sees things differently to other people and I think that they accept that it has affected them more than they realise. They need to see how he has been abusive to me next and understand that my own behaviour was due to being distressed out of my mind when I was with their father, but it will take time I think. If they don't see it then they will carry on to be abusers I believe. But things are moving forward I believe.

Mati

Dianne E.
(Administrator)
01/06/05 05:53 PM

Mati, it is great to hear from you. I am really glad that you are getting some professional help and starting to feel better. It seems like you are seeing him very clearly.

Di

Nan
(member)
01/07/05 02:01 AM

Hi Mati,

How was your Christmas? You do sound as though things are slowly moving in the right direction. I detect a soft note of self confidence in your last post. I am glad for you. You have worked long and hard to get to where you are now and you deserve every little bit of good luck and good feeling that you have created for yourself.

The sun shines on you too <s>. Keep going Mati.

Hugs,

Nan

Mati
(member)
01/07/05 03:57 AM

Hi Di and Nan

Thanks so much for those words of encouragement. I spent Christmas with my daughter and grand-daughter and ex-huband (first one who was and still is a compulsive gambler) and it was good. He wants me back as does the p which would be a great boost to my confidence if they were not both losers. My sons and p did not celebrate it as p does not like it, miserable sod. I am so pleased that my sons are getting out.

I hope that there was a note of confidence as I know that it had been just about destroyed by p, along with everything else that is destroyed whenever he touches it. I think that before I was putting on an act to show 'him' that I could mamage without him, but inside I was not ok but I have come a long way I think and now I don't have anything to prove, I just get on with sorting the mess out he made in myself and hopefully later in my sons. My relationships with the rest of my family that had been sabotaged by him are well now and I am just giving myself time to get through this with help now with the lovely man I have met (the psychologist!) He was recomended and is such a nice man and so good at what he does.

I think that it is really just time and we cannot rush the process but it all works out in the end if we see it as a time of growth and refuse to be dragged down by bitterness. I have lost 22 years of my life with p and am left with many health problems, some which will not clear up, but I have got my life back and where there is life there is hope, and it is a big world out there and full of good things and good people.

For anyone just coming to the realisation that they are involved with a p, it will be terrible at first but believe me it will get better after the first few months. it has got much much better for me, even though I am quite sick, have had to leave my home and sons and everything, am still grieving for my eldest son who commited suicide 4 years ago, have had the menopause to cope with, and severe illness when I nearly died 4 years ago. But I am still here and thriving now! Just trust the healing process inside you and you will get through.

Mati (hugs to you both)

recovery
(member)
01/09/05 02:05 PM

HI Mati

Just wanted to say hello and congratulate you on sounding so upbeat, strong and positive. I hope the new year goes well for you and your family.

Best of luck

Recovery

Mati
(member)
01/10/05 06:36 AM

Hi Recovery

Thanks so much. I hope the new year goes well for you to and your family. Take care.

best wishes
Mati

freedom
(member)
01/11/05 09:29 PM

i feel for you because the more i was with p the more i felt that i was becoming a p myself

"How can I find the strength to break free?"
the bible says when i am weak i am strong
and i finally experienced this when i got so darn weak
to put up with p
when my body could not move anymore to be with him that is when we are strong
when the energy is all gone out of us to keep up with p is when we are strong
when we are broke that is when we are rich
because then he doesn't want you anymore
right now you have too much energy to quit
when your body and money runs out of energy you will be strong
because then you won't be able to go on
that is when some of us are strong

when the spell is too mesmerizing
we have too much time on our hand
but when time runs out
you will be strong
and i hope it won't be too late
for you and your children
he is not to be played around with
this is no joke

"How can I break free. I am 46 years old - well qualified, intelligent, attractive?"

I don't want to hurt your feeling but if you stay with this relationship like i did with my p i would not use the word intelligent anymore and i am saying this with love
and attractive if your health holds up and qualified not, if you stay with him

with much love
and a lot of calling on God
for help

freedom

p.s. i will accept any correction from anyone if i was out
of line

it seems i posted in the wrong section. i moved it.

jamie

Appologies Jamie. I gave you a bum steer.

As it's your Dad that you're talking about it would have been appropriate for you to start your own thread maybe called something like "A psychopathic father?" or some such, in the forum called "Psychopath In The Family."

Its no sweat though. Unlike many moderators, Dianne doesnt get uptight about people posting in the wrong forum, or drifting off topic. Most of the posters arent nerds and many are in a shell-shocked emotional state when they first post.

The technicalites of correct forum use is the furthest thing from their minds...

You could if you feel keen cut and paste your recent post into a new thread in the family forum, then delete the post in this thread. Not absolutely neccessary though. Thats just me being a bit anal!

regards...

Hi all,

Just wanted to mention a book that I found really helpful.

It's called "Winning Life's Toughest Battles" by Dr. Julius Segal. The things I liked about it are that it is simply written (which I think most people who are enervated from dealing with Ps can appreciate) and also that it recommends actual strategies to enable one to get through the psychic pain etc. and move forward. I think that in particular, is important, since some books talk about these subjects in the abstract but don't really offer anything concrete. It draws parallels to survivors of the holocaust and others who have experienced traumatic events and managed to get through them.

Sylvie

Hi Sylvie, nice to "see" you again. Thanks for the book information. I will add it to the resource section about books for victims.

Best regards,

Di