Hello onesinglebubble,

You are indeed in a very bad place. It never ceases to amaze me how one psychopath can wreak SO MUCH havoc in the lives SO MANY people. Havoc for everyone around them while they sit happily in clothes from Macy's, apparently. Nice deal if you can get it, I suppose.

You say at the end of your post that you are way too involved in this whole thing. I agree completely ~~ too involved and way too close to get any perspective on the situation. (Been there, done that!)

I am going to give you the world's BEST advice now and I learned it the hard way ~~ BACK UP, Mom!! You have become a PART of the cycle of abuse instead of BREAKING it.

This guy is getting a fabulous rush with his two-for-one deal while you go downhill fast. He is dragging your daughter under and you as well - what a feeding frenzy this guy has!

The problem right now is that your daughter doesn't yet realize what is going on. You do, but really can't do anything about it. Really. You can't. Quit trying, as it is only exhausting you.

It is truly time to re-focus. Your daughter is still looking at him and you cannot change that ~~ only SHE can.

You CAN change YOUR focus. Take your energies and invest them in YOU.

This situation began several years ago. What have you lost in that time? What things did you used to do for yourself that you no longer engage in because of this attention-hogging situation? Besides, work ~ what did you do JUST FOR YOURSELF, that made you happy?

It is time to go back and reclaim all that was robbed from you (or find it for the first time). It is pointless to look at this guy and his antics ~ it only diverts your energies from where they need to go. Yes, this also means removing the focus from your daughter as well. If she wants to continue to keep him as the center of her universe, that is up to her. There is nothing you can do about that, but you can break his control over yourself by ceasing to be pulled into the drama.

The tone of your post seems to indicate that you may feel guilty about this guy being in the picture. Guilt can pull us into a lot of places that just aren't ours. It is NOT YOUR FAULT that he is a user. It is NOT YOUR FAULT that he is in your daughter's life. He is a user. That is HIS. You have no guilt here, no need to have given up your life in so many ways. Time to get it back.

Actually, by pulling back out of the situation, you will also be 'voting' for your daughter's competence as well. She is the person who is really in charge here, after all. She is the only person who can change what is going on. Have some confidence in this woman, have some confidence in how you raised her. Let it go and hand it all over to her, it is really hers anyway. Not yours.

Over-responsible moms get confused about what is theirs and what really belongs to their children. I know I did. Smashing yourself into a concrete wall is very exhausting and does no one any good, as I eventually found out. Go sit down and get yourself better ~ it is a fabulous alternative.

Best wishes,
Deb

Hi Lizzie2002,

I think I understand feeling nervous about maintaining relationships with other people who know him. I'm partially still programmed to think he's got the "right" to "own" me, so I (irrationally) expect others to think his actions toward me define my self-worth. Or I think I have to explain everything in order to contradict that assumption, then I worry about sounding extreme.

I really appreciated Deb's reply. It ISN'T your fault. You are doing the right thing to break off contact with him even through other people. And you can still be yourself, say goodbye to the shadow.

You have an honest right to be loved and cared for by others on the basis of who you are.

peace to you,
Bee

Diane,

Thank you for the ideas. My son called to check in and I mentioned this site to him...and your ideas for security...it's one on those "Why don't you ever listen to me?" momments for him. He's tried to get security installed for such a long time...I just didn't see that it would be effective because HE is so masterful at breaking and entering, quietly. Evidence! My son says he can install cameras that are hidden so not to tip HIM off.

I sort of feel like I can think more clearly right now (the safety of prison?) more likely that I am talking about it and my son sounds caring and forgiving...thinking of soulutions.

HE comes from a family that have all been incarcerated I have learned...met several during the trial that I only attended twice in support of my daughter...I would be so afraid of retaliation from his family if I spoke to the parole board as well as HIM.

During the trial we learned about a neighbor he had three years ago. A young woman that asked him not to park his truck so close to her car because she couldn't open her car door...HE became so irrate with her that he smashed her car's front window out. He was arrested and released charges dropped. I learned a street story, again from 3 years ago; HE was at a party and got into a fight with a guy that's probably about 45. Everyone was evidently very drugged and drinking. HE got so irrate that he started hitting the other fellow and knocked his eye out! Street justice...other guys around jumped on HIM and strangled him and beat him almost to death. I remember seeing him back then and was horrified at his condition...bruises all over his neck, the whites of his eyes were completly gone...replaced by red and his whole face swollen...then there were multiple cuts all over his face and head...hands swollen...I had no idea what had happened, but his grandmother ended up tending his wounds. There is just so much violence surrounding him.

For a little while I stayed in contact with his grandmother who grieves for the way her daughter (HIS mother)has lived and treated her four children. They have all stolen from the grandmother...her oldest son just packed her up and has moved her to the far northern region of our state where no one knows to find her. She called me before she left and cried...we will miss our phone calls together but I support her move and need to.

So is this condition psychopath organic...environmental? What I know now that he has used. He smokes, snorts, ingests and injects Meth, Herion, Oxy, ecstasy, cocaine (crack), vicodine, pot and massive amounts of alcohol accoriding to my daughter. She says the times they broke up he always cleaned up the drugs and then she'd take him back. He was very remorsefull, tears and apologies with her. Can all those drugs create a psychopath condition? Can the early years of a developing brain and body that aren't given proper nutrition or nurturing create it? Thank you for taking the time to read this. Onesinglebubble

Thank you Deb. Sometimes when I think about all of this I have trouble breathing. I've isolated so much it's difficult to leave my house. On the bright side my doctor who is very aware of most of what's happened has encouraged me to get involved with two groups thru our hospital. I feel safe going there, in-part because I go and no one knows me and I can just simply focus on the health and solutions at hand...I'm loosing weight and feeling better. You are so right. I do feel too involved so I've been working on sharing less with my daughter...becoming less dependent and encouraging her in her own efforts at rebuilding herself with her job and school. We had a comfortable success yesterday. It was her day off and we spent the day just doing what was once normal...cleaning our own spaces...I altered some of her summer clothes (she's tiny but had lost so much weight during the trial) then we cooked together and watched a video of short films. It's been a long time since we laughed and relaxed and HE never was mentioned in any way shape or form. My WOWS for the week have been breaking the isolation. I've invited old friends over twice this week...it's all very twilight zone but these were safe people because they weren't ever involved with HIM. I haven't shared this site with my daughter, it's been a very long time since our relationship had the healthy boundries of parent and child. Again thank you...your words gave me gooseflesh...honesty does that. Thank you. Onesinglebubble

Hi onesinglebubble, I was doing some research the other day for a dear friend. I have some neighbors who have cameras for outside that do record in the dark,(they are just extremely security conscience) and believe me it is pitch dark here because there aren't any street lights etc. Also a good idea is what they call "nanny cams" that can be hidden about anywhere (I don't know about the lighting needed for those to record). Try going to [www.google.com] and type in (spy store) If you go that route make sure someone like your son knows where they are set up. Also look for one that doesn't loop too quickly and record over a tape.

Will be back later, just heard some thunder,

Di

Diane...I know this heat and storm situation we have across the country is nothing to laugh at be that as it may I love your message that you risk between lighting storms and I sat here and got the giggles. I've been running 2 window ac's and 5 fans so I'm on the computer minutes at a time because I have to turn off one air conditioner...we are at day 10 of triple digits with a forecast of several more...worrying about power outages...it again strikes me funny...I've been inspired to put batteries in my cd player and Peter Gabrielle and I have even danced a bit today...Shakin The Tree...he gives good power in "It's A Womans Day"...I called my son with the "spy" info you suggested...seems that there is an actual Spy Store about 5 miles down the road from where I live...we'll go see what the options are and develop a plan. Today I resisted speaking about HIM with someone else involved I just feel the communication has to stop...I read that in someone else's post and that it was affirmed...makes it easier to breathe. Oh my I should shut down again it's almost 8 p.m. and the weather station says we are still 107! Crash! thank you onesinglebubble

Well I was going to shut down but I re-read your post to me and realized something you said towards the end. That by me stepping out of all this and taking care of my own needs it will be a lot easier, for me, by thinking of it as "voting for her competence". I love collecting quotes that help me stay in the need of the moment. I read somewhere recently that if you want to change a behavior you need to repeat it 21 times. It's so simple a suggestion, my daughter has benefited from life examples from both my mother and myself, she has been raised with strength and decency and faith shared by some wonderful friends and right now WE have her eyes. we can set the example. I'm voting on my own competence too. Thank you. one

Hi everyone
I've been reading this website on and off for months now and it has been a great help. I swing in and out of being convinced that the guy I was seeing is a psychopath or extreme narcissist, and am angry that I still seem to keep swinging. I really need to hear your thoughts.
I met him online. He turned out to be 14 years older than his advertised age--20 years older than me (he can pass for the younger age...the wonders of botox as it turns out). This should have been a sign right away. There was another one. When I first met him at a cafe he didn't care that he walked right past a line of about 20 people waiting for a table, just sat himself down. When I mentioned it he laughed and said that he doesn't wait in lines.
I was desperately lonely. Been divorced and single for a number of years, living in a strange city out of my own country for 3 years and having difficulty meeting good people, something I've never had a problem with. So I decided to overlook these initial red flags. He was/is handsome and incredibly charismatic. Multi-lingual, travelled, fascinating and intense family history, glamourous. Wore leather, drives a motorcycle, had great style (I found later that many of his belt buckles hid small knives in them). I got totally sucked in. He was very very convincing. He was in tears after a couple of meetings, telling me he felt broken and that I was the only person who he had ever felt he could talk to and be himself with. I found out along the way he has pre-cancerous cells, every form of hepatitis, and various other chronic health issues. It turned out he had split up with his wife of 23 years--he said it was over a year earlier and the marriage had been over for years. After a while I found out that he was still seeing his wife, had not yet told her it was over even though they were living apart, *and* she thought she was moving back in with him. He said he didn't want to sleep with me until the divorce was under way but it turned out it was because his wife still had keys to the house and was regularly coming over--he didn't want her to find me in bed with him. When I asked him about this after a couple of weeks--during which time he was intense and charming and I felt like I had never been so loved or understood--he lost his temper completely and accused me of mistrusting him and being crazy. He emailed me saying that he never wanted anything to do with me again, that I was dead to him.
After a week of not seeing him I contacted him. Here my own issues are obvious--I grew up in an abusive environment and my mother is a pathological narcissist, maybe borderline, so I'm kind of immune to certain levels of madness. I also have my own swings and insecurities and tend to take too much responsibility for the bad behaviour of others because of my own shame. I thought I must have gotten it wrong.

We started seeing each other again and his divorce got under way. There were a couple of days when he cooked for me and was so kind and warm and loving that I couldn't believe my good fortune. I had never been so well-treated or cared for.
Then I started to get sick. I was sick in some mild but debilitating form the whole year I was seeing him. Every time I went into his house I felt sicker and increasingly exhausted. When I got home I would have to sleep for hours. He never did another thing for me, not even get me a glass of water.
He had a friend move in who was a recovering cocaine addict. He had been a heroin addict and alcoholic and had been sober for many years, so opened his house to others trying to get sober. I thought this was evidence of his compassion which he has a lot of rhetoric about, yet it seemed that his house was constantly filled with sick people all of whom he had working for him in some form or another--fixing his house, doing his shopping, cooking for him, etc. He avoids all menial tasks. This friend would walk into his bedroom when we were in bed together whenever he felt like it. When I asked about having some privacy he said that I was jealous of his friends.
I couldn't sleep properly when I was with him as he snored, would sleep odd hours and frenetically. He said this was all new. (I found out later from seeing doctor's reports that he'd been doing it for years and it was one of the reasons that his wife was concerned that he had returned to drug use. When she confronted him about this he exploded and that is what essentially ended the marriage. I noticed that he took over a hundred different tablets every day for his various ailments). He frequently withheld sex and/or did the complete opposite of what I asked him to do. Despite that I told him that I had to sleep regular hours and get enough sleep or I'd get sick, he'd wake me at 3am for sex.
He would hang up in the middle of a conversation and say he'd forgotten he was talking to me. He'd say that he forgot things as justification for him not doing things he said he would, but seemed to have a photographic memory for everything that I told him about myself which he would use against me in arguments. Every problem was my fault. He would react explosively if I ever disagreed with him or wanted to do something different from him. We rarely ever left his house and soon I found myself acting as another of his unpaid servants.
He was always an average of 3 hours late. He often cancelled dates with me without letting me know till several hours after the time we were meant to meet. I was rarely able to contact him when I needed or wanted to. Would have to leave a message and wait for him to call at his own convenience. He said that he'd help me move house then stopped speaking to me for precisely the period of days it took me to do it and then started speaking to me again in time for me to cook Christmas dinner for him and the various people at his house. He was never available when I needed him.
I tried to call things off with him a number of times saying that we were at different stages of our lives, that I wanted a family and he was dismantling one, and that we could just walk away in a mature fashion. Each time he convinced me that I was wrong, that he did want a family and he was only hesitant because I was abusive. He said that I was offending him by failing to acknowledge everything he gave me.
I hired an assistant for him to help with his divorce proceedings. He worked on it 7 days a week, full-time. He doesn't do anything else. He was working to prove that he should give his ex nothing. Within several weeks his assistant quit saying that he had asked her to commit fraud and that she had enough evidence against him to file suit. He said that she was crazy, and that she had experienced a psychotic break because of me.
Two weeks earlier I took an overdose. I'd had a fever for a month, hadn't slept properly for 8 months, was completely maxed out to the point of being unable to work, and when I told him that I needed not to see him until I got better he exploded and accused me of denying him and blaming him for my sickness. He said I never thought of him and our relationship was all about me and all he did was cater to me.
I went to see his therapist and told her I didn't think that I had the resources to stay in the relationship and that I'd started to have suicidal thoughts. She said she thought I needed to be less clingy, but said he was very lucky to have me.
I kept having the suicidal thoughts. I felt completely trapped, like whatever I did would be the wrong thing.
Another week of accusations from him, serious fever, him saying he'd meet me at the emergency room and not showing up. Him saying he'd look after me and bring me food and then just disappearing. When I said that I needed to go home so that I had my things around me and could look after myself he told me I was abusive and to get out of his house and he never wanted to see me again. That was when I took the pills. I couldn't calm down, felt I had nowhere to go, completely lost my balance. I felt like I was so bad that I'd be better off dead. I drove home and called him. He called the ambulance, came to the hospital briefly, gave me money for a cabfare home and left. He told me he would come to see me in the hospital and didn't show up saying he had fallen asleep and that my behaviour had caused him too much trauma. The one occasion that he did come to the hospital he came after visiting hours had ended. He said he could arrange to have his assistant pick me up when I was released but that the early hour was a problem.
Meanwhile he was literally wrecking his house so that the evaluation would be lower so he could pay his ex less.
At the end of that week his assistant quit. And his coke-addict friend stole his computer and disappeared. He blamed both on my overdose. The coke-addict's girlfriend kidnapped the animals in the house. My guy sent her a threatening message from my cell phone and two weeks later I was served with a restraining order from her and a court date. He assured me he would say that it was him. Instead he had his lawyer draft a letter arguing that it was impossible that it was him.
When I got out of hospital his therapist told me I obviously had bipolar disorder and that what had happened between him and me was clearly the result of my pathologies. My own shrink said I had suffered a psychic trauma.
We saw *his* therapist because he wouldn't see anyone else as he doesn't trust them. He told her that all he wanted was to make me happy, but that I wasn't making myself clear and wasn't asking for what I wanted and I was confusing him by expecting him to read my mind.
She told him that I had to get regular sleep. He promised to support that. He continued his nightly behaviour including waking me for sex.
Some friends staged a mini-intervention and told me I had to get away from him, that I had turned into a different person and been constantly sick since I'd been seeing him. I resolved to end it. That day he found out that a family member was dying. He asked me to help him prepare to leave town to visit the family. That preparation took over a week. During this time he hired a young blonde assistant and stuck a photo of him with her up on his bedroom wall. I found him lying on his bed with her one day. He said I was stupid for thinking there was anything going on as she is a lesbian.
His uncle died. He asked me to stay in his house while he was away at the funeral. I had seen on his email the morning I took him to the airport various emails from dating websites. This was when he asked me to print his itinerary from there. He said they were just ads and he'd been trying to unsubscribe. The night he left I looked at his email. His former assistant spoke to me and said that she had seen a lot of strange things and caught him in a lot of lies and it was time I found out. I found that he had been on adult sex sites and other dating websites throughout the period I'd been seeing him. I also found emails from him to various callgirls offering them thousands of dollars to spend the night with him. He had always told me he wasn't into young women, especially not 18 year olds and I believed him. I thought he was a really unique guy. Most of the messages were to women that age.
I called him and asked what was going on. He told me that I was sick for upsetting him with this at such a bad stage for him, that he was in the middle of a terrible divorce, and that he couldn't deal with me and hung up. He was enraged that I didn't stay to care for his house.
Since then he has said that he was only doing the stuff with other women because of my instability and needed an escape route. He tried to deny it altogether but I have printed evidence. At a session he arranged with his therapist for him to break up with me--he told me this in advance--he became enraged when I agreed that we should break up. He said he couldn't understand, that I was blindsiding him and that he never wanted to speak to me again. I agreed to no contact. For the next week he sent me a stream of abusive communications accusing me of smelling blood and trying to kill him for his money.
He says he still can't understand my behaviour, and says he doesn't remember doing any of the things that I claim that he did as he was too upset by me.
He convinced me that I was the one with the problem and I ended up getting back with him for a few weeks! I realised I was frightened of him and what he would do to me if I didn't do what he wanted. During that time our sexual relationship changed. He went from withholding to actively pursuing it. He started telling me about wanting to watch me with other men, and started buying chains and whips and rope to use on me. He sent me a number of porn videos that featured bound women, crying while they were being abused and used.
I went back to my country for a couple of months to get away. My friends and family told me I looked shocking. I got regrounded there and felt well and functional.
He tells me he loves me and I've got it all wrong. I've tried no contact with him and each time he's re-engaged me through emotional manipulation--crying, being hysterical, saying he's desperate and has no one else. Part of me loves him and I know I have my own issues and I can't seem to separate his from mine. I read about codependency, inverted narcissists and think: oh I have a real problem. At other times though I feel like I believed in someone I loved and was prepared to cut him a lot of slack by seeing past his damage, and that I shouldn't pathologize myself for that.
Every time I read this forum and stuff about psychopaths and/or narcissists he fits all the criteria. His lies continue, including to his therapist, he has turned everyone he knows against me. He said he would never speak to me again. I heard from his old assistant that he has been seeing a lot of people, and has become obsessed with his young assistant. She is thinking of launching a sexual harrassment suit against him as he told her he dreams of her naked. He tells the women that he's completely emotionally available and told me that he won't be with anyone as he's running too fast and still loves me. Last night he sent me a message saying "I love you darling." I'm back alone in this crazy city where I seem to get unbalanced so easily. He is the only person I know here who I have been "close" to.
Help!

Thanks for your messages. I know I am not to blame for what Dev did but I totally understand what besimple means when you say you feel the need to explain why it wasn't your fault. I think people will think I am stupid for not seeing the reality sooner (in fact one 'friend' has said as much and been pretty nasty about it all). I also worry new people I meet (guys in particular) will think I am a bit gullible if they know about what has happened and take advantage again. I know I'd have to be pretty unlucky to meet another psychopath but I feel like I might attract them! (I had a boyfriend when I was about 17 who was pretty awful to me, left my self esteem at rock bottom and stole £2,000 from me!) I was much more careful after the first possible P and I didn't give Dev money etc like I might have done. I suppose I'll have to just be even more careful now.

I keep having nightmares at the moment. I feel slightly scared by Dev. He has hit one girl and cut her hair off which I think is odd behaviour. I keep dreaming he's trying to hurt me or getting other people to do it. He hasn't done anything to suggest he is likely to hurt me and I have had no direct contact with him since I found out what he was doing (apart from a few late night calls from no number who hang up- I suspect this is Dev). I suppose it's just the trauma of everything that has happened.

I went away for a weekend to Dublin in Ireland and I felt so happy and relaxed and free from Dev and everything about him. The nightmares stopped. I hope in time I'll be able to feel like that in my home town too.

Thanks agaian,

Liz x

hi velvetorchid,

I've read your story with great interest as it reminds me a lot of what I've experienced, from the meeting online to the sexual things you tell.

You write "He was/is handsome and incredibly charismatic. Multi-lingual, travelled, ". It seems types like that are especially able to con their prey into the situation they want them in as mine was a little bit like that too or at least believes he is and quite successfully projects that image being trained in sales.

You write you were lonely and thus vulnerable, mine perceived me as lonely and told me so; quite obviously "loneliness" is something they are after making things easier for them, as has been pointed out here again and again.

"he lost his temper completely and accused me of mistrusting him and being crazy. He emailed me saying that he never wanted anything to do with me again" This behaviour was used by mine as well and it worked in my case: I also took responsibility and reproached myself for maybe having hurt him.....lol . I still cannot see it like they consciously manipulate their prey this way, but I do think this behaviour is something they may have watched and learned in childhood, it just comes naturally. And it works, with people like us, codependents, like you put it.

You describe your P as someone who never did anything for you but got people to work for him unpaid. The same happened in a very, very mild form to me. For the few things I did for the P I was chased by I never even received a "thank you" much less something in return.

We've arrived at the sexual things now and I use your lines as a stimulus to tell my experiences, please forgive me for that. But there are others here with far more valuable recommendations than mine. My experiences though still might serve to help others to see the signs much earlier.

Back to the sex. You write he woke you often in the middle of the night for sex and that he engaged in dating sites and bought chains and whips to use on you. That all sounds very familiar. I think your P used you as a live in "animated inflatable doll".

The P I met showered me (for "flirting") with invitations for sex in any imaginable form. He sent porn pics, links to those, owns several web sites which advertise that filth and up to now probably tries to send me URLs to all this (which I don't see any more, having instructed my mail programs properly).

He is married as well and claims he f**ed a woman in every city he visited as a salesman. He tried to "share" sexual phantasies with me that can be described as: He is looking for an animated inflatable doll to put to life everything he has seen on the net. When I pointed out he should just buy a hooker he was not repulsed at the thought, but I'm under the impression it is the payment that puts him off. I see a strong parallel to your P here: Both are out to get things for free everbody else assumes to have to pay for.

The P that pursued me was obviously so convinced he could get every woman to be his free hooker that he even told me: I do not have to pursue "romantic" strategies, I get what I want, it's just a matter of time.

He as well displayed a taste for violent porn with women being not only degraded but worse, just like yours did.

I thank some higher power that might have protected me here for the fact that he overdid it, that the things he displayed were so apalling for me that I never fell for them. I kind of semi-detachedly observed and learned from them.

I cannot begin to imagine how it must feel to be in an actual physical, intimate relationship like you were with a being like that.
But I try to feel with you and if you need to relieve yourself some more by telling, please feel free. If I might give something by listening and commenting, my pleasure.

My opinion on your situation is: Either get a complete new life in the city you live in now, devoting all your time to finding new friends, a new social surrounding preventing being lonely and thus gullible. Or, better in my opinion: Leave and go to where your family is as you have been feeling so much better there. If that is a possible option for you, I'd definitely go for that.

You mentioned you are not in the country of your birth. The intercultural issues that come with that are in my opinion part of the problem, in your case maybe much differently than in mine. But they are to my opinion: The P that chased me is arab and valued me (european brunette) for being "blonde", which I ain't, or only in his perception, which is very telling in my opinion.

Thank you for sharing your story here and thus enabling me to understand and cope with mine to some higher degree than before, in fact "some higher degree each week".
You also are on a good way so far, having understood things clearly, your feelings will follow, mine did. Be confident!