Dear Segaya,

I have been thinking about what you say about the gifts. There is one thing that I feel ashamed to say but I know I ought to tell you. So you know how much what you have given me in explaining being in the big empty has done for me and also because, as you also said, silence is not good.

Since being with myself in the BE (I've just realised what I have written here- the Big Empty you see?! That's amazing. Yes, it is where I can BE. Wow. Yes that is it. Learning to Be (Me).)

What I started out to say was that when my son was little he and I would sit at the table together to eat. But over the years I found it increasingly difficult to do this and we gradually began eating in the lounge. This saddened me but I knew the roots were very deep. There was a vague sense that I just wasn't good enough and it was all too close in some way. Too close to a deep shame, probably.

When I lived with my mother and brother we ate at the table every meal. But it was one of the most lonely places for me. No one talked to me and meals were the times my mother 'had' my brother. We were only supposed to be eating food but it was as though she was devouring him, in a way. It was so sickening. From the start she was inappropriate. I remember her taking photographs of him in the shower when we was about 7. I saw her with the camera go into the bathroom and I watched her take the very first photo. There was such a look on his face. I don't know how to describe it but I'll never forget it. It was just SO invasive. She used to keep her photos in a big massive cardboard box, and before I left the house I went through the photos, and I found that photo. And while I don't think were many others like that I had to get that one. Do you understand? She used the camera so invasively. She'd prowl around and would never listen if they didn't want their photo taken. This never happened with me, only with my brother and now his two sons. I used to feel so bad for him. I wish I could have protected him, and I did against other people, but it was a different story with her. And the thing is he never questioned her or struggled to get away. But I believe that was because she got to him and he didn't have the sophistication to see what she was doing. She had split us against each other from too young.

Her inappropriateness didn't stop with the photo's and wasn't confined to the table. As he got older she would not cover herself up after a shower and would 'linger' naked. And she would flirt with him terribly. And mostly this happened at the meal table. Ahh! It was so FOUL! It makes my skin crawl. Every time we sat down, they were 'into' each other. He loved the attention, and she knew this. I felt so terribly alone, in myself, and sickened for him.

So one of the gifts that is coming to me since you told me about the BE is an awareness now of how I know my son wants me to be with him. And I would like our meal times to be a nice sharing, what they are meant to be, but I honestly struggle with feeling like I will vomit, at times, if I sit at the table. When he was little I rarely ate, I'd read to him while he ate, and he loved that. But now it's different. I want to be able to do such a normal and loving thing. But first there is this. I used to believe in myself that there was something so missing from myself and that meal times just made me more aware of it. But since sitting in the BE with myself I am realising that any discomfort doesn't come from my son, but from me because of this.

All this is making me think of how she was with my brother. She interferred with his marriage and created such trouble. When he and his wife divorced she was able to have all three 'boys' to herself. When they would stay at her house, even when they were older, she thought nothing of climbing into their beds. That's natural, people might say - grandchildren love being in bed with their grandparents. But to me, it's one thing when a child climbs into its grandparent's bed, of their own free will. It's quite another thing when the grandparent climbs into the child's bed because they are lonely. And especially when the child is uncomfortable with this, as my nephew expressed to me. So I told my brother and he apparently didn't know she was doing this. He didn't believe me to start with. So I told him to ask his son. And he did and I think he put a stop to it. Thank God!!

Maybe to others it may seem extreme to react as I did. But I knew how she was with me. She didn't get into my bed, she'd wake me up and have me get into her bed. Initially she would be wearing nightclothes, but as I got older, she thought nothng of coming into my room naked, waking me up and getting me into her bed and then snuggling up with me naked, when I was 13, 14 and older. I know that people make allowances for things when it's a mother that they don't otherwise. If I'd had a father and he'd done the same thing he would have been arrested! Right?

I hate being the one who gets to see the sick dark secrets. But at the same time, I was glad my nephew talked to me. I feel very sad and guilty now because in getting away I have no contact with them at all. I cannot trust my brother and he now has a thing about taking photographs. He did visit once since I severed contact with the rest of the family but he was very upset when I refused to allow him to take any photos' - which she has asked him to do. He feels pressured to make things happen to keep her happy. I pulled the plug on him after he abused me for being so self centred and immature and hurting so many people. If my mother is crying it is ONLY for herself. And he has no idea of what I have been through with her. He just wouldn't believe me anyway. He's always been caught in the middle and I have told him I'm not interested in trying to 'convince' him of anything. It's amazing that we grew up in the same house. Who would guess this was all going on? What could I say to anyone about this? But believe me, it is almost my mission now. I will find other ways to get the truth out. So he knows. So my nephews know a) I know what was going on. b) that they can get out. c) That I am out and when they need a haven they will have one. and d) Her behaviours are exposed so that other people can see the kind of snow job these types do to others to blind and disorientate them. God help me, I am going to SOMETHING to make a change in this!! It makes me furious!

Sapphira

Dear Sapphira,
I wish I wasn't so tired. I just came from rehursal with my band, it's 2 in the night and I am ammazed again.
The last copple of days I've been asking myself if I should write about my eating disorder or would wait for a while.....
I will write about it tomorrow, promise..I will also answer Lady Crowns writing.
For now;
I am so glad you have so much help from the BE...( I have a big smile on my face.... you are so right...BE!!! wauw.....
I have so much to tell.... so much to share...But I have to wait till tomorrow, than I will take time and sit down with all thats in my head right now....'
Thank you for sharing, thank you for being brave enough..you make me proud to be a woman, and your friend!!!
Love segaya

Dear Lady Crown,

I was rereading your posts and I just wanted to say that by sharing your life as you are you have already been a big help. To know that there is another who knows the anxiety and that inner awkwardness,is so much for me. Shame on top of anxiety. But when I hear how it unfortunately was for, as it was for me, the shame at least is starting to lift. You don't need to say a great deal because what you do say carries so much with it. I know that I'm not alone now. You and Segaya. Even though we are on the other side of the world from each other, the three of us a little triangle across the oceans, there is great support and strength coming for me in this. I live by lists too. I drive myself everywhere because I simply cannot bare to walk down the street, be out and about amongst people like this.I never go near a mall. I get claustrophobic and panicky. When people look at me it feels as though their eyes are lasers that pierce right through me and it hurts. I cannot cope with being looked at or having my photo taken. I go everywhere by car. I know there are others who are like us. But it means so much to know that we are like we are for the same reason. That makes all the difference.

Love sapphira

Dear Segaya,

I just got your post and wanted to thank you. You will be asleep now as I will probably be by the time you get this. But I just wanted to thank you for your kind and thoughtful note...I knew you'd 'get' my BE thing.
Love sapphira

Dear Sapphira,

Thank you so much for this nice post. It is a tremendous relief to know that we and Segaya share so much of the same turmoil. I can't bear to be looked at either.

Although I have to interrupt this with a funny story; last year I broke my ankle, and was on a cane with a severe dragging limp. I had to go to the store to pick up a pocketbook, and my dermatologist had just applied a treatment that resulted in a severely ulcerated bleeding forearm. It was summer and raining madly, so my husband had to drop me off at the door and find a parking place. So here I am, terrified of being looked at in the best of circumstances, and I come into the crowded store, dragging my leg, limping on a cane, this hideous-looking arm, and people actually stepped back as I hove into sight! All I needed was a little bell to finish the image of me as a leper. The clerks were stricken as I dragged myself up to the register, and did everything but carry me out to the car!

What you said about lasers is so true; it's as if you can physically feel the glance. I wish I could drive more, but I am too afraid of getting lost because I get panicky and confused. I can only bear having about one doctor's appointment a week, because anything more than that is just too much, knowing I have to go somewhere. And you are right; people who don't suffer from this just don't understand. They keep saying, "but it's so easy! You can't get lost! There's nothing to be afraid of!" Well, good for them. They have no idea how lucky they are.

Sapphira, you should never feel additional shame about your feelings. It's hard enough feeling the undeserved shame that we already do, without blaming ourselves on top of it. I'm happy to hear the shame is starting to lift, it means that you are being able to understand yourself and understand that you are suffering, not that you are wrong. That's a very big step and I'm proud of you! I love the idea of our little triangle across the oceans. It really does make a difference.

Love, Lady Crown

Pinky girlfriend,
I am so proud to call you girlfriend.
There is so much dept in what you are saying!
The way you give words to the feelings and answer my question about taking care of you mother is so powerful.You are a great person indeed. And again..I got out 'the easy way'....( well..much to be said about that!!) Easy in a way that I don't have to ask myself those questios, don't have to decide what to do and how to cope with a situation like this.I am the lucky one, people would say...but am I?... You take the change to rise above it and take the challance of a situation to grow as a human being and stay on top of it. You are able to stay close to you inner self and face those difficulties. Is there a more powerful way to grow? I doubt it!!!

It makes me so very proud of us all. In our own situation it seems we all rise above the expectations of our youth. What kind of person could we have become?.... How many victims could we have made being that way? Instead of that we all try to live our lifes the best way we can. Helping , supporting, caring of others.
You made so very clear what you mean; I thought about this a lot and the only possibillity I could think of you being able to do what you do is exactly as you discribed it to be. Thank you so much for sharing this. I will think about it a lot..Especially if the feeling of not wanting to help gets to me. ( in my work that is...)
This will make me wonder if there is just this little step further I could go....

It also teached me again, that all 'they' tried to demage us deep within, the core of us is still undemage. They didn't break us.... The hurt is there, no doubt, but they didn't succeed in totally distore us. That is how strong we are...In my work I see a lot of demaged people and to be honest, it happens that when I hear about there stories I sometimes think; Is this all? Is this why you have to go to a psychiatrist for, is this a reason to take medication? Is this a reason to go out and hurt somebody else??? Isthis a reason to abuse your children or let them be abused and not doing a thing????
I can't help myself... It maybe disrespectful but comparing this to our situations sometimes it seems so minor.. I can't think of any example now but take it from me ...a lot of people are looking for attention the wrong way.
I know I have to be respectful at all times and most of the time I am..I am the one who try to teach people that live is just what it is and if somebody is weak a little thing can have the same impact as a big thing will have on a stronger person...It's just the way it is... But this showes how strong you are,...we are... And this is to value in a great sence.

About the wheelchair..there is more to it then I wrote before.
I just think it's an injustment;
I have had a elecric wheelchair before.
Almost 4 and a half years ago I applied for a car. knowing I wouldn't get it, but I was aiming high so they would give me a closed wheelchair..i don't know if you know those little cars. They only drive 45 km an hour and are ment for short distances.
The city covernment refused. one of the reasons I aplied for this little car is because if I went out in a temputure below 16 degrees Celsius it would take me days before I could get warm again...So If lucky I could go out for 2 or probably 3 months a year.....and then I have to get my energy level up, so small change for me to go out...
Friends I met through the internet and who I have met in RL, spoke about this together and without me knowing they started to save some money for buying me a little car like that in the distanned future.. Slowly because all of them aren't working so have limited financial possbilities.
One of my friends father died and left him a legacy ( is this the right word?)
Without me lnowing they got together again and after a few months they visit me.... he bought a new car and knowing I love to drive asked me to make a testdrive with it, so I knew what kind of car it was .... I did.. Together we drove for I think half an hour. When coming back to my place I want to give them something to drink. They asked me how I thought about the car and ofcourse I was very enthousiastic about it...
He looked me straight in the eyes and said. 'oke then you can have it...'
Of course I laught, Ofcourse I didn;t believe him.... I laught at him right in his face.... My other girlfriend told me it is treu and gave me a dossier. When I opened it I saw my name on all the papers... It was really my car!!!!
Now I am a poor person..never ever could I affort a car!! .He gave me the car for the next 5 years...( in may there are 2 more years to go!!)he pays for insurange and tax. testing the car and if necessary demage on the car... The petrol I have to pay myself.
You have to know, with the money I get to live on it is even hard to pay for the petrol, even when driving carefull and so on.
I aplied for gas money for my car. The only way I could get it..( 26 euro a month) is that I gave back my wheelchair. So, they say now, the choice was mine!!
I am happy with this money, don't get me wrong. But I never can take a walk, I can't drive in towncentre where the shops are, because the made this area car free...The market, where you can get cheap clothes and so on, is unavailable for me because I have to walk all the way....
that's my problem.
So knowing the wheelchair is for them a lot more expensive, they say one can only get one of those two options. Or the gasmoney Or the wheelchair.
Its's not logical at all and I am sure that people who have to decide on these things are al very healthy and have no idea what they are dealing with. So I am waiting now for the offical denial. I will go in defense then.
What they don't know is that i will get help from a nice lady who works for an other city in this same organization..So I have to wait and see now what will happen.
Talking about this car... It took 34 years before I ever got a present for a birthday or just like that....
When a friend gave me a present for the first time; I fainted....I really did!!

I think it is about 10 years ago another friend gave me a PA.. don''t kow if this is the right expression in english. it is a huge installation for proffesional musicians. A mixer, amlifier, boxes and... a kareoka set ... 450 songs for me to choose from. I fainted agian... So, this way I have recovered the demage done by not getting anything for all those years....

thinking of this story and about what you and Sapphira are sharing also...Your husband is so right! You deserve it....

I am telling about you two dear friends to people I know. Not telling what you are sharing on this forum..it's non of there business. Just telling about my friends overseas...And how I love them...
Lots of pinky hugs, love and smiles
Segaya

dear Sapphira,
It simply takes my breath away.....You; making dollhouses.... Where is this coming from....Would you have told me for 3 months ago I would meet people on this forum and share so much of live with them I wouldn't have believed it..This is almost impossible isn't it!!!! The smallest details are equell...........incradibble!!!

This thing we have on womanhood....;
You know what my name means?
Se= see... it's english so you need no explanation there whhawhahw
Gaya= woman...ancient woman, mother earth......
So the meaning of my name; See the woman....
Ofcourse there is a reason for that.
My 'real' name is different..that is.... I was named by people who hated me.. who made me ashamed of being part of that family, I was abused in avery possible way. The name is also full of shame and not 'mine'anymore...it belonged to the victim I was before...
So I changed it!
There are lots of people around me for many years now who have no knowledge about my birthname..they all know me as being Segaya.
I didn't want to be a girl. I hated it, girls/women are vulnerable, can be taken adventage of, are easy to hurt, are not taken seriously. How many time in live I had to go out to get something done for me and my kids...ppff They just didn't hear me..Untill I put my fist on the table...act like a bad man... shout at them and boss them around THEN they noticed me being there..Nonsence!!!! I mean it the same way if I behave like a lady.
So 'See the woman' is for the outside world to get notice of me..And With the same reason for my inner world. I have to show my feelings, be gentle, because I am inside . This is why I admire Lady Crown so much in what she is doing ..Taking care of people who abused her and still staying so very close to whom she is within...


Sapphira I take it very seriously what you write about looking for an inner save place.
I have to tell you I am in contact with the administrator of this forum and with Jan to ask permission to share some things on the forum with you.
I thought I read something about not giving any therapy on the forum so I want to stay on the save side of this and respect the rules she made. She is a great person with a lot of respect for what is happening here with us and I am sure she will repley very soon...
Take it from me..I don't feel myself a therapist on this forum and sure not with you and Lady Crown, Jan and Dianne.... But the knowledge I have with my work is not disappeared when coming on the forum, is it!!! So be patient and soon I know what is allowed and what isn't... ( I agree with her rules on this...But maybe by knowing what I am talking about she can make an exeption?) We wait and see.....

I hope you see for yourselfves I am not distancing myself from the pain and the shame and the confusion and all that we are feeling... It's just like it is in a diffrent time scale for me now..but By God it took me long enough to get to this point....I am confinced that it will take a lifetime to get it right..But the actual hurt is gone , at least most of it...
With lots of love; Segaya

Hi Segaya. Sapphira, Lady Crown and our new poster Lord Crown

I have been reading all your posts and watching you gain strength from each other, I feel so pleased for you all to get together and look into the life you had and are now able to relate to someone else who understands. I hope this gives you the confidence to move forward and enjoy the life you deserve.

Lady Crown…when you told us about your mother being frail and you didn’t want to face up to her left me feeling so impressed. Only a really strong person could still want to be so positive, you have soul! After your experience you are still so caring and I feel that adds to the nature/nurture debate.

Even though I haven’t been posting please don’t think I’m not listening, I just felt there was nothing I could (or needed) to add to your discussion.

I’m looking forward to hearing how things move forward for you all.

Regards
Jan

Hi Jan,
Nice to read from you again....
you really think we don't know you are reading...whahwa ofcourse we know. As we know Dianne is!!!
if this would be happening on one of my forums, I would stay quiet also.. But..I am missing your postings. This isn't ment to put any pressure on you.. it's just because what you have to say is always so true and supporting!! You are always very helpfull and clear abot things. So,I think I can say, I speak for all of us you mentioned, as I tell you that I would like of you to tell what your thoughts about things are....
Any way; I love what you are doing for this forum and for all the members writing or not! You are doing a great job by hosting this forum..( or how do you say it in english..I think you get what I mean!!)
Love Segaya

dear Sapphira,

So, about what you have wrote yesterday....I recognized it on such a deep level...
I have an eating disorder. No, not anorexia or bulimia.... My eating disorder is because I just didn't learn to eat.
When I was just a few days old the sexual abuse started. So I learned that anything that enters the mouth will make you choke . It will prevent you from making noise, breath , feel, see and so on.
My mother didn't care enough to give us food on a regular basis.

Some 9 years ago I went to the docters again and I finally get a doctor who took me and my complains seriously. At first they thought I had leukimia ( is this the correct way of writing it?)This would mean I would die within a few months. I told the man I disagreed and that I was sure this was because of mall nutricion for decades. the complaines I had weren't changed over the years they just became worse!!
As a good docter is suppost to do, he tested me on leukemia anyway but also did the test for mall nutricion. Indeed, there was no nothing in my blood anymore; he even refused to call it blood. it was only collored red, that's it, were his words!

One of the things that happend afterwards is that I was invited to a childrens hospital by a team who was concerned with children with eating disorders, cavage( arteficial feeding program? They feed the children with a tube to the stomach) I was the first grown up with a backround who was simmilar...( oke; as you wish to call it) They wanted to talk to me about what problems I had bumpt on to in the years that went by before they took me serious. This was on emotionnaly, socially and fysically level. In return it gave me a change to ask them a lot of questions. They made it clear to me that a baby learns to eat in the first few months upto the age of 1 1/2 year with small change of this becoming 2 years. In this period of time the child has to get veried food so the body learns to recognize it and knows what to do to degest the food. There are other things needed for digesting broccolie or carrots! The body just needs a little bit of everything and learns real fast.
When the child is mall nutriced and doesn't get the veriety of food the body won't be able to learn it and recognize it after this time period.

So after I got to know this my 'war' with food came to an end...finnally!!!
It's true....cooking diner for my children was like having a war going on inside of me..To feed them was like I would kill them. This is not said easely by me..It really felt that way..Every day uptill that diagnose!! I had to do what I had learned was fatal and do it on a daily basis for my children, only knowing with my head that this was the right thing to do....Everyday thinking of what to eat to nurish them, getting them veried food so they got all vitamines..pffff it took so much energy, But I can say from the bottom of my heart; They eat everyhting... there is nothing they don't like and my oldest son was about the age of 16 when he noticed my problems with food for the very first time...This age is old enough not to let him be effected by it.
My youngest son, noticed it long before that age and is able to enjoy food anyway and knows this is my problem,not his!!!
Ofcourse my body still suffers from all these years of mall nutricion, but with vitamine pills and injections I got better all the time. Now knowing what I know I don't need food for nutricion, I can eat whatever I want to without carring one bit about what I eat. I only eat for the energy and to satisfy my empty stomach...I know now that all my stomach ache was not pain but hunger.... so no more hunger for me!! So now eating is a small party everyday. I gave myself permission to eat what I want..there is no 'must' in it anymore..People who are eating with me (this happens rarely) and comment about it are dismissed by me and I tell them to deal with there own problems and to leave me in peace....If they keep on doing this I just tell them to be silent and I know I will never be in an eating situation with them anymore.. I am in charge now..And I won't let anyone spoil my new experience with food!!
Why do I tell this?

I don't know how young your son is...
It is importend that he gets healthy food and have a nice time eating with you. If that means you can't eat at the table and have a 'kodakmoment'...then don't eat at the table and have a 'kodakmoment' in your lounge. As long as you don't pass on, or as minimal as possible, of your own trauma's with and around food and eating or any other situation.

They will remember this the rest of there lives. And the importend thing is he looks back with a feeling of knowing you love him..Eating in the lounge or at the table are not the most importend things he will remember when grown up. What is importend is how the atmosphere is between the two of you.
If you feel very uncomfortable at the table he will feel it immidiatly and pick up on this in his behavior, ( aspecially being an autistic boy). So you feeling as comfortable as possible is much more importend in my opinion. ( I really want to know how you think about it after reading this...)
With all the stress and problems we had to deal with in our childhood and in this time in our lives , we have to make very conscious choices of what is importend for usmand the ones we love...It's easy for somebody else to judge about things, not knowing at all what they are talking about. My opinion is that with all the trauma's, we have an obligation to our children to bother them as minimal as possible with it. This means compromizing. If you have problems to shower a boy child the way to deal with it is to learn him as quickly as possible to do it himself and only check if it's done oke. If eating is a problem than look and be creative in finding a way to eat with the children and be good to yourself. This way all benefit from it..The child does and you do....Thank God we are in charge now and are able to make choises.....
I made a choice when my oldest son was around 3 or 4 years old..I stopped eating as he was around.... Somehow he didn't notice this till the age of around 16 as I mentioned before..( maybe because he is a Psychopath?) There is a lot wrong with this person, but he eats!!!!

I am thinking about what you said... When he was youner you rarely eat with him and read him stories...Oooo how great and creative is that!! A very good solution for that problem...But as they get older the problem surface again...
maybe you can make a deal with yourself? instead of eating a whole meal with him, maybe you can eat on a different time? Just eating something small as he is eating to make it a nice time for him?.. making small talk so his attention is not by your plate?
Make it into a structual time for the two of you...i think that is more importend then you being anxious with the food or how and where to eat it...
Afterwards on your own there will be time for you to eat. Where you eat and how you eat is not that importend this way and in time it can take the weight off the eating problem...maybe like me, in time you can start liking to eat a bit....
being creative in bringing up your child as 'normal' as possible without the stress we went through is more importend than the form we like it to be..So eating on the table is not as nice for him as eating in the lounge..... That is creative thinking..And I do think you do well making that choice!!


You wrote;
This never happened with me, only with my brother and now his two sons. I used to feel so bad for him. I wish I could have protected him, and I did against other people

ooo how familiar!!!
No my borthers weren't the abuse victims, I was. But they suffered from fysical abuse also ( less then I)and ofcourse from the tension in the house and the foodthing.

In my work I help people especially with sexual abuse problems in any form it can come.
I say this to tell you I know what you mean...
But you said she didn't do this to you... Maybe not taking the photos but in the other ways she did.....
Is this sexual abuse also? Yes it is!
Its sexualy harasment, ít makes you anxiuos throughout the days and be aware of your every move... Its hard to see where one thing starts and the other thing stops, but take it from me; if everything is right in a childs live and 'only' this would be happening..it is named sexual abuse!

I admire you taking sides with you nephews. You are so right!! if the child has the initiative it's oke..But never the adult..Is the child in charge and starts feeling uncomfortable it has to be able to say so and go as he/she pleases...
The adult always has to behave in a way the child can feel protected, save and comfortable. If not the child is never to blame..the adult is!!
Adults around children always have to keep an open eye to what happens. Mothers have to protect there children, not asuming the fathers/brothers/grandfathers and uncles are faithful and say 'my husband will never do this kind of thing'...The same thing goes for the other side..themen have to be aware also..All women/men think that way and so many of us are victimised because of this wrongful and blind trust.
Do I expect all men/women to be bad?..No I don't, but I do know people aren't all that good always... So I think it's better to be aware than to hide in own comforting thinking....Better to be save than sorry!!
Thank God you are aware and keep your son save... This is such a relieve for me ...I am so proud, you are such a pure woman, dispite of what you have been through. And like Lady Crown you know how to stay close to your inner core and relay on it!!
And yes you are right..if any adult is doing such things to a child they have to be imprisonned..Ohh if I would be the judge!!!pff they have to be real happy I am not!!!
it's the same thing you feel isn't it...The didn't break us!! Our lives made us strong women who know exactly what we want and how to get it. We will not hurt anyone on purpose but we will go many steps further than other people to try to help others in surviving. I Say GO GIRL as you say to be the save haven for others, I say the same thing by your planes to go out on your mission....But don't forget about the most importend person in your live; YOU
with lots of love,hugs, smiles and good feelings;
Segaya

( this again is a very long posting but there is so much to say, to share... as I said to somebody else today; read it as a book if nesseccary... put it aside and later you can read on..I have real difficulty by wrinting smaller bits because of the language thing also.. so excuse me for this long message)