Dear Lady Crown,

Ohhh, I had my head in my hands reading about your 'outing'. I can just imagine! Really I can. How much easier to laugh in hindsight:)But at least you do. I don't know if it's me but I felt as though there was a humour coming back to us recently in the posts. It's amazing how a 'little' reflection from others can lift our spirits so much.

And thank you for your comment about the shame and suffering. I heard of books about shame and I knew it was there, but I could never connect to it, like say, I feel ashamed because of xyz. Even without this, now knowing - really knowing - that there are people amongst whom I belong and to whom I don't need to explain and who, in fewer words than said, know exactly the particular feeling...it's particular depth and it's particular outcome, this is so releasing of the shame. I'm sure one day I will look back and see what it was, but it's ok for now as it is. What I am also realising is that we really do come to know ourselves with others. No matter what efforts I have made, there is a limit to how much I can know myself in isolation. Perhaps having been alone for so long it is easy to believe I can do it all alone. But listening to your stories and the sharing, and feeling this being absorbed inside, I have to say there is no price for this. Really, when Segaya said "Be with yourself" she was saying "You have done nothing wrong. You need care. And you are ABLE to take care of yourself." Not going to be with myself, which is how it always was, despite my best efforts, was kind of saying "There is something wrong with you and so I must keep myself separate from you". hence the shame. This as we learned. Somehow her words got in and now being with myself I am, as you say, understanding that I am suffering, and not that there is something wrong with me. And with the name, psychopathy, I have a context for that suffering that is understandable to me and is understood by you who have also suffered because of it. I guess this isn't new and is probably obvious but I'm putting it together. Now the word 'shame' is actually starting to mean something - just as a begin to drop it off. Mmm...Thank you for being proud of me! Thank you for saying this. I will sit with this 'word' and let it soak in. It is a new step for me. But thank you Lady Crown.

Lots of love,
Sapphira

Dear Segaya,

I have this and your following post and first I want to respond to this one, briefly. There is so much in your posts and you have touched so, well, I will sit with that in the quiet of this night to reply.

Segaya. I loved your name the very first time I saw it! It is beautiful, strong, rich and elegant. I found myself saying it over in my head. It has such a lovely sound. It also made me wonder and think of Gaia - as we say. And yes, it is the same. I know exactly what you are saying! Exactly. Get ready - here comes another one! Sapphira is the name I am about to add to my 'real' name. And my real name, in my language means exactly the same as yours - the mother earth. I won't write it here, but one day you will see it and know. Soooo many coincidences. It's awesome! Like you I changed my name. The one I was given was an English translation but I starting using the original the day I left home. My mother refused to call me by this name for over 20 years. Except for ONE time. 4 years ago I was about to take legal action for her harrassment, her FLOODS of mail and abuse after she had been formally asked not to make any contact. of course she ignored the request until, by a stroke of luck, I was able to expose her in an email she sent me. When she finally realised that if she continued to pursue ANY contact with me she would face a legal battle, and lose, she finally realised I really meant business. So she sent me one last letter, addressed to me in THE NAME, saying, basically, that she formally disowned me and had cut me from her will etc. And I had to wait 20 years for that! When she finally, FINALLY realised that she couldn't squeeze anything more out of me she dropped me like a tonne of hot bricks. Ha! On to the next one, I'm sure. But my point was, yes the real power of a name. Blessed be!
Love, Sapphira

Dear Sapphira,
I have only a short time now..I will repley later..But..Blessed be.. says it all!!
hihihi It's an art to read between the lines isn't it!!!
Thank you so much...Love Segaya

no no, I have to add something anyhow...I have to go to sleep, like always in the afternoon, but this is so much in my head now!

I knew that all our names are special..Sapphira is the juwel isn't it..and you are!!
Lady Crown..wauw.. she is The Queen of Hearts ..And for me Segaya is a name full of honour, dept, recognision and elegance indeed...
Strainge isn't it;... little people so hurt ,so demaged and we all choose names like that!!!
Somehow it says someting about our inner strenght and the way we know we are. Dispite of what has happend,
Love again, again and again...Segaya

dear sapphira and Lady Crown
You are a brave person!!
It took me years before I really dare to change my name. And now, as I said before, some people even refuse to call me by my name..They only want to use the old one..it tells me a lot about these persons I have to add. I think it's a lack of respect. Like they have something to say about it..ppff I don't think so..Non of them, when asked, can give a good reason for not using the new name..They just say I am crazy and they refuse to be crazy too...
oke, then please let me be crazy....

'What's in a name?' people say; ENERGY is in a name!..And by changing the name you change so many things , in and outside the person you are....
When you recived that letter you most likely must have had a feeling of victory!!!
Ohh I can imagine how you must have felt. When I read it, I had to smile because it does tell a lot about who you are and how she is....

I admire the way you handle your mother too, Like I do with Lady Crown.
And reading how the two of you cope with al this situations tells me how lucky I am in my situation that I don't see them, I don't hear them and luckely they all live far away from me..( I heard USA is big... So let me say, for us this is far away!!)

I can't make a picture of it in my head even, me being in the same house with anyone of them...

To be honest; It took me many, many years to let go....
The day I last saw my mother I paniced. It took me 2 or 3 months to realize that all the pain I was expecting wasn't there anymore. This didn't mean my longing for A mother was gone...That took me so many more years. And when seeing an adult daughter with her mother doing they're shopping, it hurt like hell. After I saw such a scene I was fysically sick.

Sometimes you get the chance to meet some people who are really interested in how such a relationships looks like. Some 15 years ago, I was still in contact with my oldest brother, his girlfriend tried to understand the situation we grew up in.( this was approxamatly 10 years after I last saw 'her')
She asked very deep questions; 'How would you react if you find out now that your mother is seeing a psych; All that happend he would say; is because she has a disorder and a lot of trauma's .He asks you to come and talk to her...'

I was so very suprised by the reaction of my brother... he immidiatly said he would go, forgive all and everything and even started to cry thinking of that possibillity.
She looked at me and asked the same question... I had to think..Not because I didn't know what I would do, But it was more that I didn't want to say it out loud because of what she ( the grilfriend) would think of me....( I learned a bit since then!) I answered anyway;' No I won't go, she is to screwed, to smart, she manipulates everybody and only wants attention. She doesn't understand the meaning of the word love and she is not congerned with anyone else but herself...She will act, and people will believe her, and we, I , will be victimized again'.

2 or 3 years after this conversation somebody else asked me an other importend question; What would you do when your mother wants to contact you ,because she is dying and asked to see you one more time?'
This was more difficult because this would be final.
It took me a week. This is because I do care about people ( in general)and no matter what...she is still a person... And a dying person is something special...
I really struggeld with this question, I thought of it over and over again. After a week I said;
No I won't go to see her when she asks me to come.This shocked the woman who asked me that question, she has a nice family and they are all very close...what does she know about situations like ours!! (I have to add; By then I didn't see my mother almost for 15 years... now this is 25 years)

I explained;
We do, and in the past we did not have any relationship what so ever like a mother and her daughter ought to have... So as being her daughter there is nothing to say to her.

As one person to the other; If I would have met her, or a person like her, later on in live, I know I wouldn't have liked her and I know that I wouldn't want her in my live like a friend or something..So she wouldn't be in my live like that aslo..Somebody who is not in my live won't ask me to come on the dying bed I have nothing to say to such a person, simply because i wouldn't know her even.

If I think of this in a spiritual way; Lets say we are al souls. Let's say; we make appoitments as souls to live our lives together with a purpose to learn from each other....
then I will deal with her after we both aren't here anymore, On the level where the souls are.....


I have to say... I am not sure the last reason is a good one..I simply tell now what happend so many years ago....

I do think these queations are importend. This is why I understand you so well, Lady Crown, I do think this is a reason for you to do the things you do..You really gave it a lot of thoughts and you do know what and why you are doing it.
I do understand how hard it is. I read your words and feel the pain, I relate to what you are saying in dept,I only ask myself the question..would I be that brave, would I do what you are doing, Would I be brave enough to do as Sapphira has done...
I can't answer that question. non of them..I am not in that situation. They..( who call themselves my family) don't look for any contact either so the question doesn't exist really.
But thinking of the things you are both sharing on this forum does make me think a lot about you and the force behind such a discision!!

As said;it took me years to mourn about them...They are still alive which makes it more difficult.. But I can say now that for more then 10 or 12 years now I am in peace with not having a family, not having a mother. I wish you both the same feeling of peace .
Love segaya

Dear Segaya,
I am asleep on my feet. My son has been unwell. Just wanted to say that I am thinking of you and once my boy is a bit better and I a rest I will write. Just wanted you to know I will reply soon.

Love Sapphira

I am a mother of a 17 (almost 18) year old daughter. We began having problems with her at the age of 15 (as far as we know). She began sneaking out her bedroom window and at that point her sexual behavior began. There have been so many things involved in her life it is hard to touch on them individually. At one point her father and I took her to couseling. She is currently seeing a psychiatrist that treats the medical issues only. This is basically for bi-polar issues.

My largest concerns are with her constant dishonesty, lack of sexual control, and feeling no remorse for things she has done. I feel an urgency to help her because she turns 18 in April and that opportunity may very well be taken away from me at that point.

I read the guidelines for a psychopath and her personality and actions appear to fit 17 of the 20. She is driven to have a male (boyfriend) in her life at all times and manipulates them with sex. If she decides to date another she never lets go of the one until she firmly has the other. She also has to win. By that I mean if a previous boyfriend finds a girlfriend she has to try and get her foot back in the door and push the issue until he breaks up with his current girlfriend. She may or may not do this while seeing another boy.

In the past week her father and I caught her texting sexual content to another boy (and from the text we feel she has probably had phone sex with him) while she is committed to another man 7 years older. She has told him he is the love of her life and once she turns 18 that are to get matching tattoos, have babies, and live happily ever after.

She is NOT from a broken family. She is a middle child. We are not wealthy but comfortable and she has, or had when they have not been revoked, electronics such as cell phones, ipods, etc. She is also supplied a car to drive to school in. We have disciplined her with revoking privileges when she disobeys or is caught doing things such as sneaking out at night.

I need help. I need to know if my daughter has psychopathic behavior. If so, can she be helped? Although I am taking her to a psychiatrist for her medical issues, she refuses any type of counseling. She stated that it did no good and she only told them what they wanted to hear.

Please help.

Sear Segaya,

You are right, it does say a lot about these people when they won't call you by your chosen name. They have a lack of respect and do not credit us with our own agency and self determination. To me, not calling us by our chosen named self is the same as not allowing us to see our selves in the mirror. They have a deep resistance to our BEing ourselves and will try to destroy this however they can. I have to ask this though, is this what one would describe as being sadistic? Or is this about control 'only'?

You know I keep close to myself now. And it is a big learning and a big comfort! I really do understand how really ordinary things can be such big learning curves. I was thinking last night about how rich and 'full' your posts are. I don't mean as in the amount of words, but as in the amount of insight and understanding, and an image of the Cornucopia came to mind, a symbol from my culture of the love from Mother Earth. And then I think back to you having to learn to eat. It amazes me, in more ways than one. I do not have the words to describe the feeling that this gives me. What can one say when a mother is so empty as to fail her child in that way? And food is just one form of feeding, although THE form, of course. And what amazes me, and reassures me, and inspires me, and keeps me determined, and makes me reach back for my strength, is that you are who you so are, and live as you so do. Even from an ordinary, acceptable life, to be the person you are would be something. But to think that 'ordinary' and 'acceptable' is so NOT where you came from, makes who you are such an achievement. In my mind, you are such a total opposite of what you were 'given'. Instead of empty you are so full, to me, like the Cornucopia brimming over with nourishment, vitality, and wholesome treats from the Earth.

And your wise words, go BE with yourself. When you said to me, don't do to yourself what they did, at first I was a bit shocked because I really couldn't see how I might be still treating myself as they had. But now I see what you mean. I also see that she not only separated me and isolated me from my family, my friends, opportunities I was offered, so much of my life, but also from myself. I was scared to be with myself. I was terrified of myself as one would be of an enemy, when all along I was running from the one who ought to have been my best friend. I know I needed to be close to myself, but there wasn't a safe inner place to be. It is gradually dawning on me what this exile from even myself has meant. Already returning to myself in this way has made a lot of difference. Now I am sensing something else. And along with this is woven in your words about my mother's sexual abuse. In some way I feel I've been 'smoked' and by that I mean as though covered in a fog. Lost in a fog. There were things she did, such as what I mentioned, that I did speak of to a professional but got lost because there was never the reaction, the anger, the 'this is not right' that there is with the males who abused me. Having thought much about it since your post I feel that it was in the too hard basket, really. Not that they didn't want to help, but this kind of behaviour from a mother pushes right to the far edge, in fact so much of her bevaiour elicited the same kind of blank double-take, and some people just won't and can't know how to deal with that, let alone help me in that place. So I was left there.

Actually I was quite in awe of the fact that I actually put it out there, but I knew that a) I would not be judged, and b) that there was a pretty darn good chance you would understand. And I was right! Thing is, the amazing thing for me is I felt free enough to say, she was like this and she was like that. I feel I have this now because here, the context or basis for her bevaiour is one that is known and understand. Until that, nothing I ever said was believed, responded to, accepted as being her problem and not mine. You know how it is. The worm is turning, as they say. All these exiled experiences and feeling can come home now. And I'm at home now enough to take them in. I have to tell you: My ex-husband came round the other day and he asked me what was happening. How do you mean, I asked. What's all the excitement, he said. What excitement, I asked. You tell me he said. I thought about it. Excitement, I wondered. I just feel restless, I said, pacing through the house, putting away a bunch of things I was tidying up. Why, what's happening, he asked again. Nothing! I said, because 'nothing' was. Ok, and off he went. But I have been thinking. Maybe he's right. Perhaps it is excitement, I'm not sure. But what I do feel is a low rumbling thunder off in the distance, behind the hills. Sometime soon there's going to be a downpour. Something is brewing within me and it has to do with breaking out, I hope. Because saying what I did, as I did, was the first foot out of a mental prison. You see it for what it was. You shone a light through the fog. One day soon I am going to step out of the mental fog some more and also see it, or connect with it in some way, because I want to bring that part of myself home too. I am afraid to say just how important your response has been because I don't want it to go away. Not that it will but it's that magical thinking, magical fear thing. I just cannot say any more - just wanted to let you know this is were I am. I'm fine. I hope this makes sense. Yes, I am coming to see that there are two sides to life.

Lots of love and gratitude!
Sapphira

Hello Nan46

Welcome to the forum, how long has your problem been going on? Although you say it started at 15 but with the benefit of hindsight can you now look back any think of any other behaviour before this age that would alert you to a problem with her?

There could well be plenty of other explanations other than psychopathy for your daughter’s behaviour so it might be better to explore those areas as well.
As far as I’m aware the red flags of psychopathy are there well before 15 years old so that is a positive sign. Also a lot of teenagers go through emotional turmoil and could well tick many of the boxes for psycopathy so could you describe the characteristics you are aware of?

We are not able to diagnose any disorders so all we can do is share experience, compare situations and point people to any research and information we have come across that might be relevant.

Please don’t presume the worst, when you are able to, could you tell us more about your experiences and how you have coped so far.

There are so many kind, caring people here who will be there to support you as we all know how important it is to be able to share a problem with an objective but sympathetic person.

Sometimes it helps just to be able to open up and put things in writing so please feel free to share anything you need to say. We don’t have any problems with discussing matters that are normally not up for public discussion with family and friends.

I hope you feel comfortable enough to do this but only in your own time. You may find it useful to compare your experiences with other parents here on the forum. You could start by looking up all my posts and that will link you into other parents.

Regards
Jan

Dear Sapphira,

It funny. I had to look up what Cornucopia means...It's from the greek mythology of Amalthea who brought up Zeus by letting him be fed by a goat. As a thank you gift, he gave her this Cornucopia.

Speaking about dept in our conversation!!

There is so much more to it, than only is expressed in words!!

This feeling of plenty is with me ever since we have met. The three of us in ,as said, our little pinky triangle across the oceans, or ; our pinky girlgroup....How beautiful...
But you give me too much credit. I have been to all hell and back to be where I am now, and you know what?..as I said before I see the same things in you and Lady Crown. All of us are beating the odds aren't we!!!
I know so well the feeling of not belonging, the disregard to myself, the punishment I gave to me, starting the day I fled my 'home'..I was all alone and had no help from nobody. If it became to 'big' for me to handle, I distanced myself from the feeling by becoming more objective. I asked myself questions over and over and over and over again... Training myself this way to get other information in my head and feelings... I asked myself; What if this would happen to a dear friend..would I agree, would I go along with it, would I be as angry as I am now with myself.. would I be as hard as I am towards myself, would I do this and would I do that...same thing with feelings...Would I be sad if something like this would happen to a friend...When the answer was and had to be yes...I sit with myself and explore why, how, who and bit by bit...slowly, I got my answers...
In my feelings it took me forever to get some answers, to become more of the person I was inside..But looking back it wasn't all that long. ( compared to whatI see with other people)
The inner strenght it took, I find with you and Lady Crown also. Like looking in the famous mirror. All this talk between us, makes me to think back and analyze what I have done. how I did it and what the good and the not so good where in it. Did I do wrong?..no I never could do it wrong..Not doing anything about it would have been bad..As long as we try we are in a flow and if something is not working that well it will bring us to a way to make it right anyway. Energy has to start flowing and energy is always going forward...never backwards. Althought, I have to admit, it seems that way sometimes indeed.
You know the feeling. But if you look back on those moments in times in the passed where things seem to have gone wrong...it all turned out for the good didn't it..
I once heard something I want to share with you ;

Live is like a peace of ambroidery. We look at it from the wrong side. We see all things going over each other and through each other..it's a hugh mess...see the picture ( this language isn't mine still hwhawha)
God is looking from the good side and sees a beautiful crown... it's a collorful, shining, wonderful peace of art. ( and there is our Lady again hihihii)

This is what I allways keep in mind. We don't see it all. Have little use of our brain and most of us think to know it all....We know so little. We don't sit on the mountain of all knowledge, We don't have all the power and even though somehow we have to know this, we ( in general) think we can say things like.; this is not possible, that desease is incurable, it's not possible to recover from those trauma's...And who are we to say this??...EVERYTHING is possible...I lived it..am living it... I will tell more about all the wonders i have had...
So my message is..let no one, and no thought or feeling withhold you ever from becoming who yu are deep within. You are able to get it to the surface, You are there already ...only the flesh is slow...

Passed, future and present are only excisting in our heads, in our minds, it's how we are programmed. I think it's all here on the same moment in time.. Like a road that goes from one city to the other. in between is another city. The first city is the passed, the city we are in is the present and the next city is the future. it's all there , it's ready for us... the only thing is ..we aren't there yet!
So the time you are completely healed is there already, you only have to go there. Going there takes time....So dear Sapphira, maybe you can look at it this way.. Take your time and let nobody and nothing stop you from your destiny...You didn't in the passed as proven so you can do it!

Now what you say about this profesional that didn't want to go in to the things you told about your mother.
I don't know about the USA, ( other then I see on Oprah) But the Netherlands are progressive, they say, about all kind of taboes...ppff Wishful thinking.
Probably we are about a lot of things, but this sexual abuse issue is difficult.
Still men who are abused are in the dark. Still the ones abused by the mother are very alone. Still there is little knowledge about sexual child abuse in general.
Yes, people do discuss it when something is on the news...It's oke as long as it is on TV or in the newspapers, and all think to be experts... but this doesn't mean we are woke up and alert...
As a holistic therapist, specialist in helping sexual abused people, I see a lot that is so painful. Professioals who are in denial so they don't have to be confronted. It's much the same as with this thing about Psychopath's and the mental health care. If you don't aknowledge what is wrong than you don't have to bother changing anything, do you!!! This happens even more if the mother is involved. Mothers who abuse their children are never without the right to see and visit them..Somehow mothers have this holy light around them.. and people won't believe it's possible they are the agressors.
So professionals are scared of what people like us might tell, This makes them deny what could be wrong. And we, the ex- victims are on our own again. With this difference; they gave us hope.Hope that there is a way out,there is a way to recover and there is a way to live this 'normal'live we so long for... And we lose our hope...

Being on our own means we have to be inventive and creative ourselves. Again Sapphira..think of it...Would this happen to somebody you love,your son, your nephews... Would you think this is normal?..would you be in the fog asking yourself is this sexual abuse?...No you won't ..You prooved it already , You told your brother an he stopped it. You really did something !! You protected your son..if this is all true for everybody else.it has to be objectively true for yourself as well!!!!!!!!!
Going over things that happend in the passed and make them actual again, this way can be so helpful in aknowlegdeging the pain,the uncertainty, the fear, the not knowing,the blaming and so on.

You don't need anybody to do so for you. My experience is even that it doesn't matter. What matters is your feeling about you, How do you see yourself.
If I compare it to something much smaller in live;
I buy a dress and I am not sure it fitts me well.. I ask a friend and she asures me it's oke..Do I believe this?; No, I don't believe her..The doubt is in my head and heart already. I will believe myself if I see for myself it fitts me well and I feel good inside about it..I don't even need to ask anybody what they think about it..
So thinking that way; It only matters how you feel yourself. Don't let anybody be a judge over you or your live..What do they know?..they miss al kind of information and we can't give it to them.it's too big, too much and too difficult to understand if you didn't have been there.

I was smiling on what you said about your ex husband...Ofcourse it is excitement!!! I feel it and I bet you Lady Crown is too. This contact we have is so uplifting.( is this the right way to say it in english?) I find myself with a smile on my face during the day...If I read another posting of the two of you I am smiling while laying in my bed thinking over what happend that day! And I bet many others who are reading our postings are too....

this feeling is so strange for us( it is for me anyway) that it is hard to recognize maybe. It gives so much energy, so much insight,it's so uplifting and we did not know a lot of these things before did we...

Ohh by the way; cleaning the house and tidying up is usualy the thing what happens if our inside is cleaning and tidying up.....The other way around workes also very well. If you need it, and it feels like chaos inside ...Start to clean/tidying your house and you will feel things inside will clean simultaneously ( it's just a tip I can give you) don't work overtime doing so, it won't take much to start the process going!!

Lots of love Segaya

Hi

Could I just say psychotic and psychopathic are not synonymous. Psychosis refers to mental illness that makes the sufferer delusional. Psychopaths do not suffer from delusions.

I do agree that many teenagers have suffered some emotional trauma that sends them off track but they are afraid to share this with a parent or even friends. I know a young lady who suffered a severe trauma in her teens and went completely off the rails and it was a few years before her family knew what she had been through.
The only reason she opened up was because she had been drinking heavily which had become her way of self medicating and her guard was down.
She had also become very distant and stayed away from home as much as possible, she also let herself go and her bedroom looked as though it had been trashed. It was as though she wanted to live like a ‘low life’

After she had let her problem out things began to turn around although it was slow progress at first.
She is now the most delightful woman and has a brilliant career, partner and a lovely son. She is so caring and a wonderful daughter and sister to her siblings. She is back to being the person she was but even stronger.

I do hope you start finding some answers that allow you to identify what has happened to change your daughter.

Regards
Jan