One more thought... would all you identify as a positive person because you are survivor of disfunctional families. (just trying to see if that is something that attract them.)in the milieu i met the p i was known as a very positive and enthusiast person.

Hopeful

>>something that is that no one really talks about that is absolutely true and in all books that i have read, is that what drive all p relationship/association is always power. that is, what rules all their primitive envies and their impulsion is always their thirst for POWER. so we all should believe strongly in our power that attracted those Ps. They saw without doubts power in us, whether it was physical, money, talent,cleverness, social milieu, intellectual milieu. through all of your stories, the ps, even the most vulgar one, came to us to take something out of us. it is a good and bad thing but for recovery we should try to remember what we are good at<<

It is pretty amazing to discover that once they "hook" us, they want to appropriate those qualities for themselves. Like a vampire. Sucking all the good out and leaving us hollow like them. After this P ordeal and taking inventory of the damage, I find myself more in touch with who I REALLY am. My confidence badly shaken but there is a new resolve inside.

>>i spoke with my psychologist friend today, and i was telling her that i knew very well since 12 years how not to run in an obvious P because i had one of those( the disfunctional and delinquent one with drug and alcohol one)<<

Same here hopeful. P#1 was an alcholic. His P-ness was all very obvious and easy to see. P#2. . .very intelligent and knew how to do the mind game.

>>I told her that i felt really good today because i knew that my learning will complement my defective intuition for troubled men. If I can spot them like she does, I will spot them because I have learned about vulgar Ps and highly sophiscated Ps. Probably what is in between might be troubled. But i think I know enough ( like all of you, I am sure that you won t forget all you are reading when you are stunned by the similarities to your own experiences), and I will consult with friends in whatever suspiscious situations I
encounter.<<

Yes!! By all means. Consult your women friends especially and ask them what their instincts tell them about the new love of your life (when he appears).

Here is a new thought that is formulating for me with looking at my own part in this.

I see where I need to (this is for me now) is to really work on myself. Overcome my fear of displeasing "others" and be willing to step out and be honest. About who I am and what I really feeling. Consciously try to be aware when I start modifing my behavior to make people like me or not speak up because "others" may not like what I have to say. P's have no interest in women like that. . .what is it they say? The best defense is a good offence? This will be the rest of my life project. Extremely oversimplified but I think you know what I mean. I need to work on my weaknesses and areas of vulnerablities so P's can"t exploit.

>>it sounds better than to have troubled relationships.<<

Ditto sister friend! I'm no where ready either. . .sounds WAY,WAY, WAY TO SCARY FOR ME RIGHT NOW!!!!!

But. . .somewhere down the line. . .I want to try again! When I'm stronger, healthier! I think P#2 might have been right when he said I had a lot to offer :-) !!! LOL

I've really appreciated your posts hopeful.
Thank you.
finished

Betrayed

>>What I noticed with myself, is there is a general fear of men, deep in my subconcious. I was not aware of it on a concious level. Whether this is a state most women have towards men in our male dominant society or the result of sexual abuse as a child, I don't know. I suspect women defer to men as a general rule<<

>>You learn as a woman, not to show your brains. Men get intimidated by it. Men are stronger, men are more violent, men have more power,thats a given in our society. Is it any wonder we defer on a general basis to all of them. We've come a long way,but we have much further to go.<<

I appreciate your words. I helps to know I'm not the only one. I felt like such a pushover for this guy. Like I did the "girlie" thing to get and keep him. I just want the courage to be honest these days. Fear and modifying kept me from being totally so.

Thanks ((((betrayed))). Thanks also from your post on tramua bonding. That's when I began to think of how each tramua had escalated, playing off the previous ones. . .

When the wonderful plan I so carefully put together failed. . .it was the shock of the lifetime. No lie. Equal to the "event" and that was horrific.
finished

I am very angry. Angry that the P, still has power over me. Even though I have only seen him about 2 times in the last 2 months, and hardly even talk to him. I stopped by the office after hours last night, and one of his current targets was there, the owners wife. I can see why she is his target, she has alot of clout. Also, I can see why she is under the P's spell. She and the P. bullied me for the last year, in a very sneaky sleezy way. That has stopped because I am not in the office anymore. The day I moved out of the office, she wanted to talk to me, and I was to upset, to talk. The P. told me she asked the p, if she should talk to me, he told her no, he would take care of it. of course he doesn't want her and I to talk. He wants to play us agains each other.

She said hi, last night. And I want to act as if she is nobody, sound like the P. uhh. Well that is one way I became the P., for the last year, these 2 have tried to take away my existence, they have made me a nobody. This woman has fired the P before, when she was the bad target, and she let him come back. I believe that she is under his trance and alot of the things she has done were all under the P's control. She is in the "feel good" stage of his game. Her husband is an alcoholic, and doesn't give her what she needs emotionally, so this P. is a dream for her. I also believe she has alot of P. tendencys also, and I will steer clear of her. One day I believe shes will be where I am, totally lost and confused, and have to dig out of a black hole. She will understand one day, if she doesn't already. I don't want the P. to have anymore power. I have said this many times the last year, and I am working on it believe me. I think anger can be good, as somebody else posted, if it helps me stay focused.

The P. doesn't deserve another thought in my mind. But we all know how hard it is to clear our minds, of such a traumatic experience.

Hope everybody has a good day!
betteway

Oh Betterway!

>>I am very angry. Angry that the P, still has power over me. Even though I have only seen him about 2 times in the last 2 months, and hardly even talk to him.<<

Isn't it amazing how just being in the radius of the P invokes all those negative feelings in us? Here is where I see the No Contact-No Response is the only way out. The connection prolongs the addiction.

>>I stopped by the office after hours last night, and one of his current targets was there, the owners wife. I can see why she is his target, she has alot of clout.<<

I have found in my experience that even being in his business is enough to get my insides churnning. He doesn't even need to be there. I also see the "new set up" and then my mind and emotions start spinning again. I was in P's place Thursday. He wasn't there but I saw something that triggered fear, envy and insecurity. When I left, I had to ask myself. Is this really my stuff or am I getting the vibes from just being there. I only get those feelings when I'm around P or in his business. I think their area in permeated with these bad "vibes". (if not, why do I only feel it there and nowhere else)? Do you ever sense that?

>>The day I moved out of the office, she wanted to talk to me, and I was to upset, to talk. The P. told me she asked the p, if she should talk to me, he told her no, he would take care of it. of course he doesn't want her and I to talk. He wants to play us agains each other.<<

. . .he would take care of it. ( That could fall under the "catch phrases". )

>>She said hi, last night. And I want to act as if she is nobody, sound like the P. uhho, Well that is one way I became the P.,<<

You don't sound like a P. You sound like a wounded spirit trying to regain a sense of dignity.

>>> for the last year, these 2 have tried to take away my existence, they have made me a nobody.<<

Devaluation phase. My heart reaches for you here (((betterway))).

>>I believe that she is under his trance and alot of the things she has done were all under the P's control. She is in the "feel good" stage of his game. Her husband is an alcoholic, and doesn't give her what she needs emotionally, so this P. is a dream for her. I also believe she has alot of P. tendencys also, and I will steer clear of her. <<

If this is the case you will have the enjoyment of watching the end. If she is also a P, it will be a case of the biggest shark eating the smaller one. There is no win/win in the P competition.

>>I will stay clear of her<<

Smart girl. Only way to win, is not to play.

>>I think anger can be good, as somebody else posted, if it helps me stay focused.<<

Here's a little snippet from one of my many groups LOL.

The realistic position is that pain is an inevitable part of human life. It frequently accompanies tough, healthy decesions and the process of growth. Life is not fair, and sometimes you will suffer no matter what you do. Anger is not automatically bad and destructive. Anger is frequently cleansing. It can be a honest communication of current feelings. It can help keep you focused to make healthy changes in your life.

If the intensity of pain is the indicator of growth. . .I'm doing it in LEAPS AND BOUNDS. . .LOL!!

There are better days ahead (((betterway))).
We're getting it. . .
finished :-)

(((finished))),
Thank you for your response to my post. It brought tears to my eyes, but they are the good tears. It is so important to me to know how much all the people on this forum support each other and really do know deep down how painful P. experiences are. I have had a bit of a rough day today, but I'm still moving forward in my recovery. I have to. betterway

Betterway

>>It is so important to me to know how much all the people on this forum support each other and really do know deep down how painful P. experiences are. <<

I know. . .me too. I feel the same way betterway. . .very appreciative of every post. Each helps in a very special way.

>>I'm still moving forward in my recovery. I have to. <<

I know THAT'S true! One day at a time :-) !

finished

Tonight was reading a transcript of Sam Vakin live chat.

He is an NPD, so you get it from his perspective. It explained another peice.

The address is: www.mental-health-today.com/narcissistic/transcripts.htm

Scroll through the questions to the part where it explains NPD modus operandi and Sams comments on how he works at the beginning. The idealization and then vanishing. There is another VERY enlightening peice of information in there on how the brainwashing takes place. They have to know what their doing. (I mean this guy IS ONE, he should know).

His answer is the most perfect explaination of how my encounter with P#2 worked.

Then I found some information on the "inverted narcissist". Here is where it really got scary.

I could see where based on the first tramua of being devalued at the beginning with P#2 and him backing our immediately, triggered all the replay stuff in my early childhood dynamics.

I have posted before, I knew little to nothing about psychology. Pop psychology. . .that was it. I was reading books about relationships what have you. I had heard the terms of psychopath and narcissists but never thought I seriously KNEW one. I knew I had a dysfunction childhood and a raging mother who didn't like me very much but I didn't know until now she had a personality disorder. A narcissistic personality disorder. Did not know that. Not one psychologist ever even used the word. Didn't even use the word Personality Disorder. I didn't understand family dynamics but just a little. I thought if I married young, escaped, moved far, far away (which I did) and tried to do everything opposite of her, I'd be okay. That was my yardstick. My standard. If mother did it like that. . .I wouldn't. Little did I know, decades later, I would be dealing with the same issues once again. Wow!

That inverted narcissists thing was horrifying. I was becoming that person!

I am getting out and never looking back. I've got work to do. I never realized HOW brainwashed I was until I read that tonight. Even my business deal is not enough to keep me connected anymore. I want out and AWAY! I am also horrified at how close I came to REALLY losing my soul in him. That is the price tag of the P connection. I see it clearly.

finished

Thanks (((((Finished))))

OOOh, I just feel sick. I thought I had read most of Sam's stuff, but missed this piece.


>>They remain 'stuck", frozen in time, constantly replaying mental tapes
of the interactions they had with the narcissists.
What they don't realize is that these tapes are "foreign objects"
implanted by the narcissist in their mind. Time bombs waiting to explode. Kind of "sleeper cells" or post-hypnotic suggestion.
If you find yourself in this situation there is little you can do to help yourself. You need professional assistance<<<


That's EXACTLY what happened to me. That first month after the police were called, I was just in total shock.Could not absorb what he had said to me that last week he was in the store. The last week when he thought I had caught on to him, I still can't remember very clearly. They escalate their techniques if they fear you are leaving them.

One month after the police were called:

Then the sleeper time bombs exploded or vomited out of my brain. I would wake up in the morning and another piece would come down, every morning for days on end.

All those little pieces, replaying over and over and over in my brain, trying to make sense of them, putting the pieces of the puzzle together. I couldn't even get out of bed for hours at a time, thinking and thinking, putting the pieces together.
All that happening, plus the terror of being stalked by him for a further year and a half. Now wonder I was, still am, a mess.


It was if the one P was there constant, and you would subconciously or periferally see tiny blips of the other parts of him and all the other stuff going on.

Was that your experience???


Betrayed.

((((Betrayed)))

This information becomes more pernicious as I learn. But the upside is this. . .knowledge is power and there was no "bliss" in the ignorance.

I am on Sams email list and JUST this morning looked at this peice. It is about survival and coping skills. It is just a confirmation of all that we share here. You can find it at this address. It was comforting to me as my first thought this morning when I awoke was, will I ever find my way out of this maze of P traps.

Survival coping skills

>>>>They remain 'stuck", frozen in time, constantly replaying mental tapes of the interactions they had with the narcissists. What they don't realize is that these tapes are "foreign objects" implanted by the narcissist in their mind. Time bombs waiting to explode. Kind of "sleeper cells" or post-hypnotic suggestion.
If you find yourself in this situation there is little you can do to help yourself. You need professional
assistance<<<

I know I was thinking all my groups and counseling was overkill. . .now. . .I know it's not. My mind has been twisted for years. P#1's pattern and P#2. . .it is as Sam says, you may abandon the P but they never abandon you. Now I see why I was never able to permanently break with P#1. . .the "tapes" the "sleeper cells". I didn't reallize how true my statement was that I was reclaiming myself. I've spent my entire life being an "extention". Another thought I had this morning was, will I be able to do it? These patterns are engrained in me.

I must trust my desire to break free and be willing to do the hard work it takes. It surely can't be any harder than whan I've survived thus far. I can't beleive it took me this long to discover this. . .(another shooooccckkk).

>>Then the sleeper time bombs exploded or vomited out of my brain. I would wake up in the morning and another piece would come down, every morning for days on end.<<

Betrayed. . .I think this is where I am and have been for the past two months. Desperation (plus your encouragment to go get help) have propelled me to seek all this help. Pandoras box has been opened.

>>All those little pieces, replaying over and over and over in my brain, trying to make sense of them, putting the pieces of the puzzle together. I couldn't even get out of bed for hours at a time, thinking and thinking, putting the pieces together. All that happening, plus the terror of being stalked by him for a further year and a half. Now wonder I was, still am, a mess.<<<

((((betrayed)))) ditto here girl. This morning I had to force myself out of bed. After reading all that stuff last night and facing the horror of it. . .my mind was whirling. . .almost out of control. Then, the fear of realizing how this personality type has dominated and controlled me and my thoughts for years. And wondering. . .can I ever break free of my own part that I have been trained to play.

The glimmer of hope that I have is this. I didn't know what I was dealing with. I thought all these people were "normal" you know, with feelings that needed to be considered. I mistakenly thought if I understood, communicated, worked on the relationship. . .things would change. NOW!!!! I KNOW!!! NO HOPE!!! MORE OF THE SAME!!! AND WORSE!!!

So going forward I HAVE TO KEEP WORKING ON ME.

>>It was if the one P was there constant, and you would subconciously or periferally see tiny blips of the other parts of him and all the other stuff going on.

Was that your experience??? <<

Every bit Betrayed. . .every bit. Brainwahing. . . subtle brainwashing. (I'll turn your mind around, I know it'll take time, I know it will now, your'e always on my mind. You. . .are in my system. . . ) Little did I know.

The infomation I read last night hit me seriously and profoundly. It was indeed sobering. But needed! We must know the "enemy" and what we are dealing with.

We're learning betrayed. It is never to late!
With love and God bless you ((betrayed))
finished